The Perfect Product Team w/ Jeff Lash VP & Group Director, Product Mgt Research at SiriusDecisions

All right, we are live for another product launch session. Thank you everybody for being here, appreciate you taking the time out of your day to do it. Um, brief introduction, I'm Mike Belsito, co-founder of Product Collective, and I'm actually in Cambridge, Massachusetts right now at the Tapjoy offices. So a big thanks to Tapjoy for having us today. As you can see, it's pretty lively in the background. So if you hear some background noises, hopefully you don't mind that. It's actually a pretty cool office here. So, but I'm excited about our guest today. I'm excited about the topic. Just a couple of sort of, you know, things to go over before we really get into today's session. We have another exciting product launch session that's coming up in a couple of weeks. It's actually with Maxime Prods. He's the VP of product for Algolia. and he actually used to be the director of product at Zendesk. So super excited to bring him. He's going to be talking about just sort of lessons learned as a product person, as he's been in product for quite some time now. That is actually— normally we do these on Wednesdays. That's actually going to take place on a Tuesday. So Tuesday, June 27th at 1:00 PM. So feel free to join us for that. Um, you could go to productlaunch.com and register for it already. Also, I do want to let everybody know, we're, we're super pumped about this. We at Product Collective, we're actually launching a podcast and we're announcing it tomorrow. It's actually live right now though, the first 4 episodes. So it's Build Launch Scale. So not quite on Stitcher yet, I don't believe, but it is on SoundCloud and Apple Podcasts. So if you search for Build Launch Scale, it's there, the first few episodes. And then we have Dan Olson in one of the episodes. We have— I don't believe Cindy Alvarez is in the first 4. Hers is coming up pretty close after that. So We— I'm really excited about that. It would be awesome if, especially tomorrow, if you all would be willing to spread the word, because tomorrow is sort of our launch day for that. So you'll probably hear from us on that, but thank you in advance for checking that out. And then just a quick reminder for folks that are interested in our product conference, which is called Industry, takes place in the fall. The last, uh, time that you could get discounted tickets will be until June 15th. June 16th, ticket prices go up about $50. So, um, and then it's the same price for the rest of the year. So hopefully— I know many of you that are— have registered, you're actually coming to Industry, so I'm pumped to meet you in person. But if you've been on the fence, now might be the right time to do it, just because you could save a little bit in doing that. But with all of that said, I want to get into the topic today, which is talking about the perfect product team, and we're talking about that with Jeff Lash. Jeff, thanks so much for joining us.

Absolutely, thanks for having me, Mike. Good to be here.

Now, you and I, we had a chance to meet at another product conference, actually Pendemonium, which put on by the team at Pendo. It was a great time. But you and I, we got to, we got to meet up and get to know each other a little bit. And afterwards, you know, we're talking about what is the best topic that we might be able to focus on for a product launch session. And when you mentioned, you know, hey, maybe I could talk about what makes up the perfect product team, I knew that that would be of interest. And it looks like it has been, because I think we have more people registered for today's session than ever before. But people are always curious about that, like what, what functions, what roles, what core competencies go into the perfect product team. Even before we talk about the team, maybe could you just even give us a quick refresher about you and your work at Serious Decisions?

Sure, yeah. So this is, I think I suggested this because this is a topic we cover a lot. So Serious Decisions is the world's leading research and advising company providing guidance to sales, marketing, and product leaders to help them improve their performance and grow intelligently. So my work at Sirius focuses on— we provide research and advising services, and there's two main groups I work with, with what we call portfolio marketing teams. So that's product marketing, solution marketing, industry marketing, all those, those variants, in with product management teams. So in that work, you know, I spend a good part of my day every day on the phone meeting with product leaders and their teams, really helping them drive improved performance, implement best practices, and accelerate their growth. So this is a topic that comes up a lot, in particular around how do we establish a product management function? How do we grow a product management function? What are the roles and responsibilities? How do we move a product management team from being more tactical to being more strategic? And so I thought this was a great topic. And like you said, given the interest, it seems like a lot of folks are interested as well.

Well, maybe we could start just by, I mean, let me ask the question, what What makes up a best-in-class product team? Like, what is it all about? Is it about making sure you have specific roles that are on the team? Is it less about the roles and more about, hey, if you have people covering these things, it doesn't matter what the role is? Maybe, I mean, could you just talk about that a little bit?

So I think let's start, let's start with figuring out what is product management? What value does it provide? Right? Because quite frankly, I've seen different companies organize their product functions and have different folks in the team depending on how they define product management. And I hate, I don't want to get into a lot of conversation about, you know, how do we define it? But, you know, at Serious Decisions, we, we focus and we work with B2B organizations exclusively, so— or B2B product management teams exclusively in that sense. So we're not talking about advertising-driven products or consumer-focused products, right? But in a B2B context, we view the role of the product manager as being responsible for the overall commercial success of the offering throughout its entire lifecycle, from idea inception, you know, approval, building it, launching it, managing it throughout its entire lifecycle in the market. And so in that sense, a very cross-functional role. The analogy I like to use is the conductor of an orchestra. I know some people say, oh, it's, you know, the president of the product or the CEO of the product. I find sometimes those analogies get misinterpreted. So really it's about, you know, how do we coordinate all these different functions? How do we get product development and design and sales and marketing and all these different groups to work together. And I think that's important to have that shared understanding of the responsibility and the value that product management provides, because that then dictates, you know, how do we create the right team. So, for example, you know, I worked at a lot of companies where they don't really have a clear value proposition. It's not really clear what does product management do, rather than, you know, we do these activities, what value do we bring to the organization? I think it's probably good to have that value proposition be slightly different in every organization. But in a lot of cases, it revolves around developing a really good, solid understanding of the market, the competition, the customers and their needs, and then using that to drive a product strategy, right? So how do we take what customers need? How do we take what our company strategy is and how do we coalesce that together and figure out what is the offering we need to create to address those? And then ultimately, then that dictates, well, what are the roles and individuals we need within the organization to make that happen?

Yeah, well, and by the way, before I get into more questions, if folks watching, if you have questions, feel free to mention them in the Q&A section because we're monitoring that. So we might include those throughout, we might include those at the end. So if you have a question, make sure you add it there. But going back to what you— something that you just said about, you know, kind of like the functions of, you know, that product manager. I mean, I've noticed personally, you might have a title product manager, 10 different companies, they end up doing 10 different things. Are there certain things where it's like, hey, regardless of whether it varies from company to company, you have, as a product manager, you have to make sure you're at least doing XYZ? Like, what, what are those core things that a high-performing product manager should be doing?

Yeah, so I, we see that as well. I would say even within companies we see that variation, or within teams we see that variation. Um, and I think, you know, the interesting thing about product management is that up to this point it has traditionally been You know, if you have 20 product managers, those 20 product managers are all doing roughly the same thing, which is different than some of the other functions we work with at Serious Decisions. So for example, we have a service that works with marketing operations teams, and those teams sometimes divide the marketing operations responsibilities person by person. So one person isn't doing all those things. They may be just doing— working on measurement or just working on— focused on data or something like that. But I think for the most part, what we see in product management is that any individual product manager should have competencies and responsibilities across the full spectrum. Now, and there's, I'd say, a minimal set of competencies you need. Now, you might be particularly deep, you know, in one area. If you've heard the concept of the T-shaped person, right, you know, you can do a little of everything, but you might have one particular area of expertise. And we break it down into kind of 5 areas, kind of looking at the range of responsibilities. So the first is, is, you know, the market opportunity aspect of it, right? So understanding what the market opportunity is, understanding industry trends, competition, customer needs, right? That very external-facing market lens. The second is then, you know, using that to define kind of what is the, what is the product we're going to create? What is the idea or the concept? Or is it a service? Is it a product? Is it a solution? And what, what are the kind of the core components that go into that? The third is then, right, how do we take that idea, that concept, and create a strategy and vision around it, right? Because we could have You know, you and I could each create— have the same concept for a product, but the strategy might be very different, right? Your position might be we're going to sell through distributors and we're going to go upmarket. My strategy might be we're going to sell direct and go downmarket into specific industries. So that's really about how, you know, where do we then— how do we look at that strategy and vision going forward? The fourth area is then, you know, actually developing the product or the product delivery aspect of it. And I'll just say as an aside, this is where a lot of product managers spend a lot of time and quite frankly, too much time in my opinion. And as we've seen, but you know, ultimately, how do we then take that strategy and execute it? And then the fifth is, then once the product's in the market, how do we grow it over time? How do we manage the lifecycle? How do we start looking at things like portfolio management? You know, as we start talking about beyond just an individual product manager, but with a portfolio of offerings, how do we balance investment across those? So I would say, you know, we look at those, those are kind of the five fundamental components. For the most part, you want to have product managers that can do all of those. You know, start— I think more and more when we start seeing larger teams, that's where you start seeing some specialization. The main one being, you know, obviously in agile development teams, you might have folks that are really focused specifically on that product delivery if they're playing that product owner role in an agile project. But even then, you know, some— so you might say, look, we're going to have one person who's the overall product manager, someone who's playing that product owner role and supporting the development team on a day-to-day basis. There's some challenges with that approach, quite frankly, but you know, in certain situations we have seen it, it can be effective if you set it up correctly.

And what about other product roles, for instance, that business analysts— are there other, like, hey, if you're this specific role, you need to also make sure that you're covering this core competency?

Yeah, I mean, I think we're starting to see certainly in some organizations, right, a bifurcation within the product management team, right? So I'll say there's the fundamental roles, right? Head of product management, the executive person, product manager, technical product manager, director of product management. We're starting to see sometimes the portfolio management role being split out as a separate if you have a large portfolio of products. And then more and more in some organizations, you're starting to see more kind of specialist roles. So folks focused on product analytics or product operations. We're starting to see sometimes user experience report into product management. I wouldn't say that that's a product role itself, but certainly there's alignment with the product team. And I think a lot of that, quite frankly, depends on the size of the organization and the rest of the organizational structure.

Now, somebody had asked, you know, hey, what if, you know, I'm a product person, but I want, you know, I want to make sure that our culture as a company, you know, we embody what, what's necessary for product people to thrive. You know, in this case, the person was saying, hey, we're beginning to grow and scale our new portfolio products. Do you have any, like, what's your take on what's necessary to help a product culture thrive specifically?

So, you know, it's interesting, and I certainly, I think I hear this a lot of cases, right, you know, that "Oh, it shouldn't be one function's responsibility. The whole company should be focused on it, right? The whole company should be devoted to a good user experience, or the whole company should be selling it." And I think that makes sense, but at the end of the day, really, in most cases, you need someone ultimately responsible. I think actually focusing on kind of, "We want to have a product culture," in some cases can backfire because you're so focused on building things. And I see a lot of engineering-driven companies that are very product-centric, but they're building things because they can, not because the market needs it. So what I would much rather see is If you want to make sure that you have that culture, I think it's really about how do we make sure we have an orientation towards our customers and our audiences, right? Because at the end of the day, products are successful when they meet the needs of their customers and when they meet the needs that exist in a market. So I think the companies that really are good product companies are not— I mean, certainly they are good at building products, but I think what they really also have is that constant ear to the market where there is customer empathy, where there is that collective sense of importance of, you know, meeting customer needs and understanding needs and providing solutions to our customers. So I would say rather than focusing on kind of how do we get everyone to understand, you know, all of what product management is, I think you look at the first part of what I outlined in terms of those responsibilities. If everyone is focused on understanding the market, and at least at some level, and understanding customer needs and really figuring out how can we better serve our customers, I think that gets a good part of the way towards that that kind of product orientation that I think a lot of folks are looking for.

Yeah. You want, you know, when you had mentioned those 5 major attributes, you know, core competencies that product person would have, I'm curious for the product, you know, if you want to call it the 10x product manager, you know, that product person that's far and above better than, you know, 90% of the other product managers out there, is it that they have all 5 or is it Or is having all 5, that's sort of table stakes? You know, any product person needs to have all 5 of those competencies. Like, what separates the very top from sort of just the rest of the product people?

Yeah, you know, there's definitely a minimal set of table stakes. I would say that we would— we believe at Serious Decisions that you need to have, right? So there's that kind of basic level of ability, competency, skills to do all 5 of those things. Where I've seen when you talk about the person who's 5x, 10x, I think the areas on the first part that are probably more important, right? So typically those are the folks that have really that ability to really understand not just where the market is today, but where it's going to be in the future, to understand unmet needs, right? To understand, you know, it's not just about, oh, hey, here's the things that salespeople are bringing to our table. How do we create features for those? But what are the needs that people aren't even aware of or not telling us about? I think that's a key part of it. I think on the solution side, it's about how do we then create a solution that is unique and differentiated, right? So it's not just, hey, people want these features, let's build these features. But hey, maybe there's a completely different approach or model that we need to create. And I think establishing that strong strategy and vision, because like I said, when you look at, you know, we've done some work and looked at kind of where product managers spend their time, and a lot of the time is spent in that delivery kind of side, which, which Granted, there's a lot of responsibilities there, but I think, you know, you can spend a lot of time spinning your wheels, redeveloping stuff or developing stuff that's not gonna be adding value or not unique. But if you do it with an eye of, you know, we have this, a very unique vision, we have a very clear understanding of a need that's not being met in the market. I think that's, you know, any, it's the, there's an old, I think it's an Abe Lincoln or no, George Washington quote, you know, and I don't know the exact quote, so I'm gonna butcher it, but you know, if I were to, I'd spend most of the time sharpening my knife. I think that there's, I'm sure other versions of that quote that other people have said, but it's essentially the idea of, hey, let's really spend a good amount of time understanding the process, understanding the needs. And then when we go to build something, that's how we create that 10x level. It's not about spending more time necessarily in one book than another, but just making sure that when we're building stuff, we're building the right stuff in the right way.

Later, I'm gonna tweet those exact words and credit you for pointing to George Orwell. I will go and find the exact quote.

I have it somewhere off top of my head.

No, I've heard it. And I, that's actually, I'm glad you brought that up. I think it's a great analog, or analogy rather. I do want to ask you this, like, so people that are tuning in right now, and by the way, for folks, you know, feel free to, I have a couple questions left, but if you have more of your own, feel free to ask those in the Q&A section so I can make sure to ask them to Jeff. But for folks that are tuning in now, I think they could be in a couple of different positions. They are that product person, and they might hear some of those competencies that you're talking about and say, I know I need to get better in a few of those. Or you might— I know we have some product leaders, you know, I saw, you know, looking at the titles of some of the people that registered— VP of Product, Chief Product Officer. They might be looking at their teams and thinking about, you know, sort of looking across the aisle and at folks and thinking about those core competencies. How can How can we help either ourselves or our teams get better at some of these competencies if maybe they're not our strong suit today?

Yeah, so I will, I think it's really important. One of the, one of the things we do with our clients a lot of times is assess the maturity of a product management organization, and there's a framework and model we use in looking at a number of different dimensions. And actually, one of the things we look at is, is there kind of, are there development plans in place? Is there ongoing training and support and learning provided? Because even if you're a great product manager today, I mean, look at the things that are important to product management now versus 5 years ago, a lot has changed. So there needs to be that kind of ongoing culture. I will try to avoid making this seem like an oversales pitch, but I will note that this is something that we help our clients with at Serious Decisions, right? So we are often brought in to help with doing an assessment of the organization, providing guidance, saying, look, here's the areas where you need help. You know, you either— you recognize you need help, or based on our assessments, understand we need help in providing through ongoing support and guidance and training, that sort of upskilling. I think what we find is that in general, you can't fix a lot of these problems overnight, right? To say if someone's not good at competitive analysis, in an hour you can't make them good at competitive analysis or you can't make them great at competitive analysis. You can give them some basics, you can give them some foundations. But I think one of the things I think that's important for leaders to understand is the best way to help people learn is through reinforcement and also through making it apply to their work. So we like to always look at, all right, is there an opportunity to kind of integrate some best practices and some new models and frameworks with a challenge that someone has today? You know, I could, I could present to you on the best practices for pricing a B2B product, but if you're not pricing a product right now, it's going to go probably in one ear and out the other, you know. But 6 months from now when you need to price product, that's where you need help. So I think for leaders looking for opportunities to say, rather than just in a vacuum, how can we identify the skills and apply best practices and help our folks learn? In an environment and do this on an ongoing basis. Because, you know, learning as an adult is different than learning as a student, as a child. And I think all people learn best by reinforcing things. I think the other thing is also just kind of boiling it down to what's most important.

Right?

For example, we'll do an assessment with a company and we'll say, look, there's, you know, 5 deliverables that we recommend you do that you're not doing today. And there's 20 activities that you yourself have said you're not good at, right? We can't boil the ocean. So let's figure out what are the couple things that are going to, you know, if think of it as raising a tent, right? You have different poles on the corners of the tent, right? I might want to raise the middle. You know, if I raise the middle, I'm going to raise one of the tent poles on the side as well. So, you know, we typically look at things like, you know, understanding customers and users, understanding the competitive market, a business case being a key deliverable because a business case brings in all these other elements. So rather than focusing on kind of like very tactical things, a lot of times we say, look, if you can improve your ability for your product managers to understand customer needs, that's going to help make a whole bunch of other stuff in the process improve. Now, they still might need help with launching a product. They might need help with kind of doing portfolio optimization. But with that background and good, deep customer understanding and understanding the market, that will help make those things a lot easier.

That's great. I appreciate that. Yeah, one question came in and actually reminded me of a conversation that I had with a friend the other day who, you know, he's a product manager. He'd shared with me, yeah, there's 15 engineers on my specific team. And I was like, seems like a lot. But one of the questions that came in was, hey, what is the right sort of, you know, is there a correct ratio in terms of UX folks, engineers to a product, you know, match up with a product manager? Like, I don't know, in your experiences, have you seen kind of ratio or range that works best? Like, what, what is a lot and what isn't a lot? Like, what's appropriate?

Yeah. So I think, you know, we think about teams, you know, building the product team, that's important, right? So understanding, you know, not just the roles of the product managers themselves, but how they interact with people. So we actually, one of the things we do is we collect data from our clients, we go out and source and collect data. So we do have some data on, you know, staffing ratios and how those vary across industries and across size of companies and things like that. But just so you know, I'll answer with the standard product management answer, which is it depends, right? It depends on a number of factors. You know, I think a typical starting point, you know, so let's take, let's take an example, right? So the 1 to 15, you know, my gut tells me that's a little high, right? In terms of the number of engineers to the number of product managers, I'd say typically we see more in a 1 to 6 to 1 to 10 range. But that being said, this is why it depends. I want to understand what's the product, what are the developers doing. So, for example, if you said this was a product that is a new product that is very UI intensive, it's very much, you know, customer experience is a big part of the interaction. And this is a team that has never worked together before. I would say that, yeah, that 1 to 15 ratio is really, really high in terms of there's a lot of developers for the number of engineers. But if you said This is a product team that's— this is an engineering team that's building on known technology, that's worked together a lot before, that has a well-defined process. The product they're building is, you know, in maintenance mode, and the enhancements that they're making to the product are very much backend sort of things. So like the user story or the product requirement is, you know, we need to make the system run 20% faster, and most of the work that the engineering team is doing is to actually make the system run faster. I would say actually that's probably okay because the level of support that the product manager needs to give to those engineers is not going to be as intensive as if we're building a mobile app for a startup. So I hate to kind of fall back on that crutch, but it really does depend. You know, I've seen, quite frankly, I've seen well-functioning teams that have a 1:3 developer ratio and good functioning teams that have a 1:20 developer ratio. I've also seen poorly functioning teams at both of those levels as well. So As a general rule, I think generally we tend to see, you know, there's the concept you may have heard of the two-pizza team, right? If you have a team that you can adequately feed with two pizzas and not super, super extra larges, right? So, you know, 8 or so, you know, 8 to 10 engineers for a product per product manager. I typically would like to see a dedicated designer as well as dedicated UX person. Quite frankly, most companies are not there just because they're for whatever reason, not able or willing to staff and fund the UX role. So typically we see fewer products, you know, for every 1 product manager and 10 developers, maybe you might see half to 3/4 of a UX person. But just to give you some general starting ranges.

What this question just came in, like, what about, like, at what point for a company or a team do you start to see, if at all, somebody that's just dedicated to research, you know, just customer research, that's all that they do. Is there a certain point we see that, or is it just really depend on the team?

Yeah, I mean, we don't typically see that role specifically. I mean, a lot of companies, especially large companies, will have, you know, market research departments or competitive intelligence functions or things like that. I worry about separating the role. I worry about if we say, look, you know, we're gonna have one person do all the research and go out and do all the understanding, and then they'll just, you know, write some reports and pass on to people. I worry about that because And one of the fundamental components of product management is getting a deep understanding of the customer and the users and using that to drive the products we create. So, you know, if you farm that out to and dedicate that to a specific person, maybe from an efficiency standpoint, it's efficient. But, you know, whenever I've always done research, right, I've done customer interviews and site visits and observational research, things I did 10 years ago that are still very clear in my mind because, you know, that one instinct, that one instant where I saw something happen is so clear and communicates it so well that it sticks with me, right? And you don't get the same by just writing in a report, putting it in a presentation. So I would say where we do see that role sometimes coming in is at larger organizations. If you have, you know, major competitors that you're following, or if there's, you know, major market research projects that are being done, we see a market research function that can help But typically they act more as maybe an internal agency of sorts, or they work with third-party groups if we need to source outside research. The other situation where I have seen it, where I think it might be okay, is if there's a major new market you're going into, a major new, you know, size company or industry or something. I think in that case you might say, look, we really need to get— you know, and we have, let's say we have 4 product managers, they're all 100% dedicated to their existing products, and we're going after this new market. Then I think you could say, right, we're going to dedicate this person to researching this new market. But I don't know if that would be a good idea to have them dedicated over time. I think you might say, look, they're gonna, you know, blaze the trail and understand that new market and then take that information back as we start building the product strategy in that area.

Yeah, we're actually getting close to the end of our time, which like always it goes quick because it's a great discussion. But the one thing I did want to ask you was, are there any myths about, you know, what's really important for a product person, for a product manager specifically, that maybe isn't as important as most people think? I'm just curious, in your experiences, I'm curious if there are some that have popped up.

Well, there's two that come to mind. In the interest of time, I'll focus on one. So the two that I think is one, the myth is, oh, you know, product managers need to code or need to know how to code. And the second is that product managers need to have, you know, industry domain knowledge. So on the first one, I will— I actually was asked this question on a panel a couple of years ago, and my response was I don't think that product managers need to code. I think that everyone needs to code, right? I mean, my third-grade daughter is learning how to code. Like, I think it's a valuable life skill to have. So I wouldn't say it's particularly for product management. I think it's just— it seems like it's a good skill to have now. Now, that being said, in all seriousness, I think, you know, a lot of times that comes from organizations that are much more technical and say, oh, you know, you can't communicate well with the developers if you don't know how to code. So that's, I think, a myth. But that's probably a separate discussion, maybe a future podcast. On the, on the subject matter expertise, that's one where I think there's a lot of bias towards that. I think in certain situations it is relevant, right? I was talking with a company years ago that was developing software that PhD chemists use to do molecular modeling of new drugs they're developing, right? You probably need some pretty good deep chemistry knowledge to be a product manager there just to have conversations with these people. But I think for a lot of the products that I deal with in B2B, You don't need, you know, brick coming in. You don't need deep domain knowledge. I think quite frankly, it can be a benefit sometimes if you don't have that expertise because you come at it with a fresh set of eyes. And to your comment earlier about, you know, the 10x product managers, the tech folks are able to pick up new industries, right? They can learn human resources, they can learn marketing, they can learn industrial equipment, right? They can, they can adapt. And I think there are a lot of product managers that have been successful doing that. Now, the average product managers, it might be more challenging, but That's one where I oftentimes see hiring managers put more emphasis on domain experience than on product management experience, and I think sometimes that's a bit misguided.

Well, Jeff, this has been awesome. I really appreciate you joining us. There have been some folks that have asked questions that I won't have time to get to. Can you maybe just let everybody know how we could— you know, I know you're active on Twitter, maybe how to get a hold of you in social channels? And then just give us an idea of maybe, you know, some of the things you're working on with Sirius Decisions that folks might be interested in knowing.

Yeah, yeah. So, so Twitter is a good place. You can follow me at @JeffLash. That's J-E-F-F-L-A-S-H. You can contact us through the Sirius Decisions website. That's SiriusDecisions.com. There's a Contact Us. You know, a couple things we're working on. I mentioned a couple of some of the research that we're doing. You know, one of the things that might be relevant to the folks here of interest is we actually just published a piece of research. Normally Typically our research is only available to clients, but this one we created a special version that's available to anyone looking at product management tools and technology. So we're seeing actually a lot of product teams looking to adopt standard technology. They might be using a combination of, you know, Microsoft Word and PowerPoint and Google Docs and, you know, other things cobbled together. And we're seeing more folks' interest in product management technology. So we just published what we call a serious view report looking at the different, some of the different vendors that are out there in this space. So that was actually literally just yesterday, June 6th, we launched that. So we'll put a link to the, to where people can read a little bit more about it and download it. We also have another, so if those of you who like webcasts, if it seems like you do, we're going to be doing a webcast in a couple weeks on June 20th. My colleague Lisa Singer will be doing an overview of some of the, what we call the Sirius Foundations, right? Some of the foundational elements of product management, some of the foundational models and things. So actually going into some of the details on, you know, some of the responsibilities we talked about in terms of, you know, understanding customer needs and, you know, working better with development. So that's a foundation webcast that we're hosting at Serious Decisions. So we'll be— we can put the link in there in the chat, or if people are interested, again, they can go— I think that link is on our website. So SeriousDecisions.com, there's also the blog at SeriousDecisions.com/blog. And it looks like, yeah, we got some links there. So those are some good things that we have coming up for people to get more information.

That's awesome. I appreciate that. Yeah, I added a whole bunch of links there to the chat so folks can, can check those out. Jeff, I appreciate you taking the time to talk with us. Thank you for joining us, and thanks everybody for joining us. I know it's always taking time out of the day is difficult. We have so many things to do, but we'll see everybody Next time, again, coming up Tuesday, this time June 27th at 1 PM, and we get Maxine Prodze of Algolia. That will be a lot of fun. And thanks for everybody for checking out Build Launch Scale, the new podcast that we have coming up. Appreciate everybody's support in that. So Jeff, once again, thanks for joining us. Really appreciate the time.

Yeah, I enjoyed it, and thanks for having me.

All right, bye now.