Building a Culture of Automation: Insights from Alex Chernyak

The cultural benefit of automating any old procedures that you have One of the very strong statements for automation community they have in the modern corporation. Anything that can be automated should be automated. But I truly stand beside that message for any executive. Anything in your company that you can automate, you should automate to be competitive would reach out to Tesla automation teams because they have a culture of automation and experience and expertise and open the gate to them to start talking to the business operation managers. Reach out to your procurement, reach out to UHR and say hey guys, let us do pilot, let us automate most mission critical process for you and you will see the benefit of it.

Get ready to discover the most actionable end to end automation advice for some of the smartest testers on the planet. Hey, I'm Joe Calantonio, host of the Test Guild Automation Podcast and my goal is to help you succeed with creating automation awesomeness.

Hey it's Joe and welcome to another episode of the Test Guild Automation Podcast. And today we'll be talking with Alex all about different approaches for automation, DevOps, biz ops, RPA. And it's really going to helpfully, you know, cover all things that concern executives, developers, testers. So if you're listening, this is definitely for you. If you don't know, Alex is a pioneering force in software automation with a career spanning two decades marked by innovation and leadership. You know, I've been in the game for a while and I could swear I've seen Alex at different events for years and years and years. So really excited to have him on the show. He's also the CEO and founder of Zap Test and Alex has revolutionized software testing and rpa, offering speed, ease and efficiency with different solutions to help you get there. He's also a Ukraine native and former IDF serviceman, and Alex Journey from strategic alliance with Mercury Interactive to establishing Zap Test underscores his adaptability and vision and he's contributed to multiple places like Forbes Technology Council. I think he's contributed to Gartner Tech CEO Highlights and his influence is unparalleled in the tech space. Alex's leadership has not only elevated Zap Test, but also helped redefined software testing and automation. Really excited to finally get him on the show and talk to him. As I said, I've been seeing him for years at different events and you don't want to miss this episode. Check it out. And as you know, I always say seeing is believing. And that's what's great about Zaptest. They actually have a free version. You could try for yourself and see all the benefits that Alex went over in this episode. So all you need to do to get it is go to zaptest.com and click on the Zaptest Free button. Hey Alex, welcome to the Guild.

Hey, thanks for having me, Joe. Glad to be here. I want to start by telling how big of a fan I am. I love your show and I love the way what you do. It was my dream to combine software, automation and entertainment and you've done it for us. Thank you.

All right. Absolutely. Thank you so much. And as I mentioned, I've followed you for years and years and years. Probably because I started off with Mercury Interactive as the first vendor testing solutions I ever got involved with. So you've been around for a while. So how did you get into automation testing that early in the game?

Oh, thanks for asking. First of all, I was a drop off of Israeli Special Ops and my mission in life was to do something significant. And when I came to the States I came across the folks that I served an army with and they said hey, we're in a new game. There's automation, it's a new industry if you want to join. So here's the white paper. Learn the windrunner, get certified and we'll talk. So this is how I got into industry but I, I always had this dream of combining apply special ops principles to software consulting and it worked. So we managed to be, we had a reputation of Mercury SWAT team so we've been on every single gig that had some difficulties. We were flying around the globe, me and my team. So this is how we started and because I've been working with R and D very close and flying to Mercury R and D to Israel in the times where they were unrest on the streets and some resistance and antifa going on and we were in the latest and greatest. I advised them what better to do and what technology and the functionality industry needs because I've been talking to the clients directly that got my involvement in the subject matter expertise if you will. And later we started to work on our own add on which used to be Zapfix. We were giving it away to clients of Quick Test Professional because we wanted to optimize object recognition and what's not and this is how we transition into full blown software company ourselves.

Awesome. So Alex, you know, I'm just curious to know you've been in the field for a while then what's exciting you about the current trends and maybe the direction you see zap test going that you think people should Know more about AI.

I live in brief AI right now. So we in a new very exciting momentum in our everybody's careers. And I'm glad that I come into this momentum, have an opportunity to do something exciting and we definitely building up AI, injecting it in zap test and soon going to be coming up even more visible modules that our customers will be using. Yeah, and another thing that excites me it's ability to bridge between the DevOps and these apps throughout the automation. And basically over the nearly 30 years of automation industry, we basically corporate world adopts automation and has automation culture. It's not absolutely foreign language for anyone. So everybody understand what automation is and the significance of automation.

So how do you get that automation culture though? Especially in DevOps and Biz Ops? A lot of times people think of just functional automation. When you're talking about automation and DevOps and biz ops, what kind of automation is it?

Well, for DevOps predominantly of course it's a software testing. I mean this is where it bridge between the development and the qa. Right? That's already been done. We've been evangelist of test automation for over 20, 30 years as long as the industry exists. But now we have a new game. Now we need to automate biz ops and the biz ops. It's a completely untouched fault, very lightly touched if you will for many reasons. Lack of education and culture and operational teams about automation, lack of the technical abilities and experience of automation. And for that matter, I see testers that will be those evangelists that will reach out to biz app and offer their services to operational team. And we as the toolers, the people that develop technology that helps testers and operational teams to make automation giving them seamless automation. Where testers basically don't need to rebuild their frameworks or pivot their ways as the way they do automation, they just either repurpose scripts that they already have for testing frameworks into the operation and continue automation in the biz ops world the same way they do in test automation today.

So I guess can you just define what is biz Ops and is BizOps more in the realm of executives or is that also developers and testers?

Good question. So business operations, Biz ops stands for business operations, Right. So business operations and anything in the corporation that does not do develop because today any company, it's a hybrid of software company with the business of what this company represents. Right. So anything that focus on the business of that company and we can start with the core operational team like procurement Account payable, receivable, hr, even the sales report, anything that supports operation of this company may be automated. But we can go even further with that. Besides just optimizing the operational processes, we can automate any operation that human being done through the digital interface can be automated specifically with Zeptest today.

So is it mainly package based applications or like you said, it's other maybe not necessarily web based front ends that may be harder to automate. And that's where I guess RPA comes in.

Well, in sense. Right. So in the traditional world it's been divided where the testing tools were focused on the automating the testing processes and RPA tools were automating the operational processes. But in fact if you step back, you'll see that pretty much the same style of automation, just the different tools being used a different way, goals are differently, different of course, where in the test automation you focus on end validation. If we talk about functional automation, right. But on the RPA side, on operational automation, you focus more on the processing of the data. So but in fact, if you automated login procedure for testing purposes, to drive login into the system for further test automation, you can repurpose the script into the rpa, allowing the boat basically logging with the same script into the system and continue doing the operational processes what it does. We're running a lot in our customer bases today and customers saving a lot of time and the budget of repurposing, reusing the frameworks that they developed for testing into the operational cost and vice versa. So basically you're empowering with Zeptest at least this is a model of our technology. We empowering testers to be not just the testers operational automators, but rather software automation center of excellence, which deliver automation across the board for any group that needed their help within the corporation.

So I'd like to dive into a few of those things that you just mentioned. And I like to use the framework I think you laid out in your Forbes article on the three main factors of test automation or the three main test automation factors. So the first one was product. So I want to go through each one and see how it applies both to executives and maybe the tester developers. So product, obviously I assume it has to do say zap test or whatever product someone is using. Can we talk a little bit about the product phase and maybe how zap test fits into that factor went for from executive first and then maybe developers and testers.

Absolutely. So if we'll talk about 3Pmodel. Right. What you're talking about it's a product process and people. So we can look at that at any sequence, right? Depends on the need. But if we'll start with the product product, we're talking about automation tool in 11 terms, right? So simply speaking, so automation tool has to be focusing on cross platform, cross technology automation. Meaning we were one of the first in the industry that started concept of computer vision object recognition within Zaptest we absolutely stay away from the dumb model and we how unorthodox it was at that time we started to use OCR and enriched OCR with bunch of mathematical algorithms that would become on the steroid. So today Zoya or Zap object engine allow you to automate and not negotiate what user interface you automate. It's automating using the visual computer vision technology in the seamless way. So that gives you as a tool power to automate any application in any process you'd like to the even extent that we reverse engineer BDD in fact that you don't need a gherking and the selenium on the back end. If you talking about the agile automation, you can take any sketch on the whiteboard, take a picture of your phone and scan it with Zap scanner to build the object repository based on the picture and you construct the script even before application being released. So as an automator you're always ahead of the developers rather than waiting in line, right? So just to get back to the point of the product. So product has to be absolutely flexible in terms of what it can automate and which delivery schedule it can meet. Because with Zaptest for example, you can shift the delivery schedule depends on the style what your developers are using. Again as I mentioned, if you're an agile, you can be on the mock up automation and you can be early in the automation phase, right? If you work the more conventional way. When you have a subject matter expert that suggests the scenarios for automation, we have video recording scenario technology that allows non technical personnel, less technical I should say, to record desktop video and pass it on to automators within the same ZAP test framework. So automators on their time zone can just open their pre recorded scenario, it's the same shell and apply parse it to the objects and create automation based on the video. They don't even need to access the live application. And those plays apply to many scenarios in our everyday life. If you employ the company and you run an automation group, or specifically if you're a consulting firm or consultant that may have some restriction or if you work Remotely on a different time zones make sense. So getting back to the tool it has to automate anything can run on the cross platform fashion. We have a technology that allows you to structure all in any platforms of diverse denomination. You can have physical virtual machine, physical server, virtual machine, mobile phone, emulator, all in one stack and run one script across all of them in parallel. Because our object recognition very forgiving. It's a computer vision. It does not negotiate what properties of the UI objects you have. So it treats the same absolutely same way. So. So again back to the tool. Tool has to automate any application, meet any delivery schedule, any development schedule and has to be absolutely cross platform and on the top of everything. If we're talking about merging biz ops and DevOps, it has to have seamless framework, seamless application to whatever the task you automate without negotiating what you're doing it for a business operation or you're doing it for a quality assurance group.

Nice. So I was doing a little research and I think you just came out with the WebDriver integration. But I'm just a little confused because it sounds like your technology does more vision based. So how does webdriver then tie in? Is it like you said, being able to handle wherever you are within your company with your technology? So it's seamless and that's why you have this WebDriver integration or what's that all about?

Absolutely. Thank you, Joe. Yeah, we're very excited about it and we've been holding back for a while merging with webdriver but recently we understood with the whole volume of and I want to give Selenium taking my hat to them, they did fantastic job of popularizing technology open source that changed the culture of automation perception completely. So we want to invite WebDriver Development Community into Zaptest and with integration of WebDriver we offering community multiple benefits. Benefit number one, if you're using WebDriver and you're happy with WebDriver it does what you need. We're giving you component based architecture of WebDrive that for years wasn't there because the WebDriver is a very low development level technology which requires a lot of scripting. It's very linear, it does not presume many components that can be shareable and reusable. That's a lot of manual ground work that you need to do. So this is what we do better within the ZAP test. If you use the ZAP test and the web driver within ZAP test, you will have object repository that you can repurpose to different scripts you. Not to mention that you're going to have all the function libraries, all the data sources, everything that you would have done if you use component oriented tools. Make sense? Another huge benefit that you will have from using WebDriver in Zaptest. It's a three way automation. You have three engines built in, you have a web driver that you're going to be driving off for non web objects you can use a Zoe, our native object engine which uses computer vision. So all in the same script and we have a demos online that you can watch and see how it's done. And on the top of everything you can use API calls within the same script so you can design any place you'd like for your automation. No restriction whatsoever. You have any task automation technology within Zap tab. If your manager going to ask you to automate something, there's never going to be a reason that your tool Zap test will not do it. You can automate it either web or non web mobile mainframe, even mockups. Anything that needs automation can be automated with Zap Test.

All right, so sounds awesome. How does it work though? So I know people have thousands and thousands of Selenium tests already in a framework. Do they have to start with Zap first or do they import it into Zap and then they get all these benefits? How hard is it them to then integrate Zap then into maybe if they have a very large existing automation framework based on Selenium?

Well, we're working on the integration of the existing frameworks and due to be released soon. But today you can continue your automation with zaptest and using the web driver as is. So you're going to leverage all your automation skills and there are some components that you will be leveraging going forwarder as far as the data sets of course functional libraries that you have external and what's not if you'd like to create that. Absolutely.

Nice. So I just know when I was working for health care we started off using Selenium and it turned out we had to interact like a year later interact with a thick client application that would come up through the web browser and we couldn't automate it. We had to do all these janky things to get it to work. It sounds like using something like Zap. If we had that that would have been like no, we'll just use Zap because then we get to benefit of the Selenium. But we can also then automate these other things that we didn't anticipate is.

What it sounds like absolutely Joe. Definitely. Thanks for saying that. You got it. So you have a crossover with Zap Test. There are no limitation or pavement on the road that's going to block you because if your objects is not HTML based, you can kick in Zap Zo statement and Zoe object Zap Test object when you web driver cannot do. And on the top again as I said, you can also do API.

Yeah. So with API then usually someone needs to pull in a library like rest assured or something and code it up. It sounds like your technology also does component based automation. So how does it, does it make API testing easier where they don't have to just do the calls themselves? How does that work?

Well, it's working in a similar fashion as the other API tools, but here you have duality. You can use zaptest because we have a different studio that every basically member of the team depends on their role in the process gonna use. And one of the studios, it's an API studio, it's a standalone studio where you can use it as a standalone API automation technology. We have full parameterization, we got all the correlation, all the managers and what's not, we've got a lot of utilities built in that makes your life easier as an API automate. But also if you use a one script studio, which is a core UI animation studio for zaptest, you can use API calls within the UI script so to mix and max it. And some calls gonna be from user interface validating this step and another call will be from API to see how the system responds to that so you can validate sanity.

All right, so as automation engineers and testers, we're geek, you know, we love this but like if an executive's listening to this, like why should they care? Like what is the big benefit of this for them that you think should be a takeaway?

Well, where would I start? I mean with developers it's easier, it's easy to explain. Right. But with executives we starting from. And I can start very high how usually talk to C executives. Right. So first of all we bridging the DevOps and biz up. This is how we started this conversation before.

Right.

So that's already a huge benefit. It's a cultural benefit of automating any old procedures that you have. You know I'm, I'm working with Gartner very close and I'm a big fan of Gartner. I love those guys. I think they true visionaries and one of the very strong statements for automation community they had in the modern corporation. Anything that can be automated, should be automated and yada yada yada, that explains what the benefits. Right? But I truly stand beside that message for any executive. Anything in your company that you can automate, you should automate to be competitive. Now if we're going to dive lower a little bit from that message, we can start discussing application, who going to do it and to whom. Right? And we already mentioned that as well that I would start eventualizing automation within the company for from tester I would reach out to test automation teams because they have a culture of automation and experience and expertise and open the gate to them to start talking to the business operation managers. Reach out to your procurement, reach out to your HR and say hey guys, let us do pilot, let us automate most mission critical process for you and you will see the benefit of it. And this is how you crossover in the culture of automation from devop to biz op. And again, as a tooler, I can guarantee you that our tool supports this motion.

Excellent. So we covered the product piece of the three main test automation factors. Let's go over the other two really quick. The second one is people. So how would you break down what do people have to do with the automation factors on how you decide on test automation?

Of course a lot because they are the people that define and set expectation that other people need to meet. So I was one of the part of the design group of the business process testing tool. In the beginning in the Mercury, you remember that tool, it was part of the quality center. Basically it was design of the commotion of differentiating role in the testing process. In the Windrunner era we had an idea of one person that does automation but then we figure out that it's not correct because you always have person that knows what needs to be automated. So you have a subject matter expert that not necessarily need to know automation and you have automation mechanic which is us automators that needs to take the requirements and develop automation pass it on for execution or executed ourself. Pass it on just the result. So people that will be part of the automation process first of all needs to have a distinguished role. So you might and one of the place maybe you will have two roles. To make it simple, you have a subject matter expert group that may be business analysts manual testers. Don't try to make them automators. I would like to keep it separate because it's a very unique skills of knowing business aspect of the process. Right. And making sure that they can dictate the scenarios to automators to automate upon. And of course you have a group of the automators. Those are the core mechanics that will be taking those scenarios in any forms. Build an automation and make sure that all this train runs around flawlessly. Right. Without the hiccup. So that takes different set of skills, different education, more aligned with the software development skills and software development education and experience. And if you don't interrupt and don't disrupt that, you always going to have healthy automation within the company that's going to be reducing the maintenance because you know, maintenance, that's what kills all the projects. You making the poor choice of tool, you're making the poor choice of skills in your group and you're going to end up with the huge overhead maintenance that's going to kill all the budget, eat all the budget and kill all the effort of the automation. Makes sense. So a lot of projects that fell through in my 25 years career were based on the high maintenance.

So what about someone says well AI is going to solve all that. We don't need to worry about people anymore. How hardcore are you with AI?

Well you know, it's very tense because we all professionals and we definitely would like to stay in the game but we've been through different tsunamis of web and other technological changes. Right. And mobile that's definitely much more overwhelming than anything that we've seen yet. But as long as the people still gonna make a final decision on any technological procedure, humans still gonna be in charge and the technology and the processes that we're gonna develop and automate will be oriented to human. What I do believe in AI and this is why I'm very excited about it. It's going to tremendously turbo boost our productivity. So I'm not suggesting that we need to cut the head count, I suggest that we can automate much more with what we've got and the perception of deliverables will change before you add.

Awesome. And so the third piece then is process. How does process play into test automation factors that you've seen?

Absolutely. So the process relies more to developing the schedule or the operational product. Other automators we need to design the work approach based on what we need to deliver. Right. For example, if I'm running automation game for a very early adopter agile team where I have very short iteration of builds, I need to focus on the all kind of early automation routines and procedure. If my team does not presume that I'm going to have a subject matter expert but rather my automators and I'm wearing a manager hat Right now executive right. My automators know the subject expertise, maybe part of the development team that knows the business rule of application and what needs to be developed. Because usually we suggest if we're in a very kind of agile environment we do what we used to call three amigos meeting. Right where we have a product owner, head of development and head of testing. So we all have to be in this meeting. We'll take the same requirements, we grow on the same mock up and we're going to run building automation while the developers building the actual software and we're going to meet them at the release point. So this is the process that I have to meet if my schedule is less tense and I have more time. And I do have a team of subject matter expert that appointed or part of the team. So my process is going to change. So I'm going to use for example artifacts like video scenario recordings and I'm going to have a team that's going to be responsible for them to make sure that they developed and that they accurate. We'll also allow the rec studio audio narration that basically you can create all the desktop movie and pass it on and the automators will pick up this video understand without taking anybody else time on their own time zone and build the animation because you can parse either mock up or you can parse video with zap test scanner. So it's built for a complete object repository and they can construct the entire animation without even the taking anybody else more time or in some cases even touching the application life for whatever reason that might be. Yeah. So you changing the process as you need. So process of automation as you said need to be very carefully discussed. Every executive has to be honest to situation if they have a budget for particular skill set or they don't have a budget. Particular skill set makes sense and build a process that's process oriented rather than struct skill centric because we're all human people objective changes people common people living. And in order to protect the process altogether I suggest all executives to be and evaluate their budget, their headcount and possibilities of building the automation group according so budget executives.

A lot of times I've worked for a company where they said we're getting rid of all the vendor tools were going open source. I swear they spent more money doing that than staying with the vendor. So how do you inform the executives that yes it's open source but there's a cost to it. Maybe you need to weigh both these options like I love vendors and I also love Open source. But there has to be a point where there is a cost associated with open source as well and give them a fair way to evaluate both solutions.

You're absolutely right. And we have this conversation planning. This is why we made a hybrid solution. Anything in Zap is a hybrid. If you look at us, we very unorthodox in any way we do things and we intentionally challenging ourselves to do so because you have to innovate something new and you cannot. That's based on my experience of being evangelist for 20 years that if I'll tell you that you're gonna fly tomorrow, you won't believe me and you probably won't like. But if I'll tell you that you can jump high and you can move faster this way, then you're going to try that because it's not that far away from the reality, right? So what I'm trying to say at Zepp we trying to advance technology and the community graduate. So to address your question about open source for us as a commercial vendors, it's always a challenge because there's as I said, Selenium guys did a great job of popularizing technology. When it comes to tools, of course open source is the first choice but as you said, there's a huge overhead, huge cost of maintenance and upfront labor and maintenance all together. So at Zepp we hybrid it. We offering our enterprise customers unlimited licenses of our software. So once you onboard Zap test, you can run it unlimited for any purpose of any group in your company.

Even on containers. You could spin it up infinitely anywhere.

Anything that has a domain name of your company eligible to start using Zaptest right away. So that gives you sense of the commercial quality technology like Zeptest because we have a top notch engineers that working on that PhD in math and what's not and also ability to use it unrestricted at any purpose you need it. So this way you can easily infuse that test once you're on board at the first phase. If you executive in any group, if you manager, let's say test automation manager, you can start building up your team by offering your company more automation services within the company. And I always encourage my customers who's the manager? I said don't stop. I will help you to do automation awareness in other groups with all the collaterals I'm going to co host with you and teach and educate the community, all the executives, how much you can do for them and what the automation and Zap test can do as well.

So that's a lot people process product to get right, especially when you go in open source. So you've had all this experience. Zap's been around for a while. Have you baked into this as well into the tool so that it's almost like best practices are baked into it so people don't have to learn from scratch over and over again how to get it up and running or where to use it best. You mentioned educating your executives, but is it explicitly built into the tool itself or the process that makes it easier? Maybe, or I don't know if that makes any sense to make the process easier for someone just using the tool?

It does. It's a great question. I'm glad that you asked. So in order to enable people faster, we appoint a Zepp named Account Zepp expert. So basically if you're on board zaptest you have unlimited licenses and we're giving you complimentary full time expert who's trained and certified by us who are going to be if you wish as a consultant sort of role that's going to work for you every day. The mission of our experts not just to script and expedite productivity of Zeptest also act as a first year of support so you don't need to call Zeptest support. You reach out to your expert and John knows all the he's like a resident automator if you will, right. With a new company he knows your framework, he knows the skill set of people, many of them already know him. It's easier for him to advise you and answer your question toward what you're trying to achieve. As a first year of support. Of course John also going to be writing script for whatever the onboarding manager needs to. But also John can outsource and build automation for other groups if of course team in agreement with that to start evangelize automation to other groups within the company. So education is a big key of that. Beside the educational materials that we have online, we also speaking of AI building other educational modules based on AI of course but we have a human resident that will be a part of the team that makes sure that you always answer the question in time. He will advise you on the best practices, how you build architecture, how you design sort of automation component and what's not right. And this way you guys going to be productive if you onboard new members, John going to work with them and enable them and do mentoring session to make sure that they onboard it properly.

So I've written in my notes, I don't know if this is the same thing. Zap partnership Program is that the same is that you're partnering with Zap with an expert or is this something totally different?

Well, we have two main go to market strategies of course. One is any vendor we go reaching out direct to our customers, but we also have a partner program, we're reaching out to the services company and saying guys, we have a skyrocketing technology that will help you to deliver more automation for your clients first of all. And you the same way can bridge from being a testing service partner to being general software automation service partner. And predominantly next step for you to reach out to operational teams to start offering them services and operation makes sense. So basically we empowering services company to do more than what they doing today.

Okay Alex, before we go, is there one piece of advice you can give to someone to help them with their automation testing efforts and what's the best way to find contact you or learn more about Zap and to make it extra complicated for you. If you give that one piece of advice for executive for one and then if for someone who's listening as a developer what that one piece of advice would be. I don't know if that makes sense, but one piece of advice for an executive and one piece of actual advice for a developer after listening to this that they can implement of course for.

Executive implement automation anywhere you can. Because through automation you always your company no matter what you do always going to be in a competitive phase where you at. So anywhere where you can automate, try to automate for developers. I want to advise to choose the technology and the processes that suits you the best. And always try to stay in the cross automation phase. Sort of don't focus just on one application because you never know what other application you will be given to automate tomorrow. Right. So the choose tools that you use and the frameworks that you implement to be in the cross border broader kind of outlook. And of course automate as much as you can and use zaptest and what's.

The best way to find you or contact you or learn more about Zaptest?

Well definitely zaptest.com you can book meeting with us if you direct customer or if you partner. We have a partner page that explains the benefits. And soon we're planning to release Zap Talk. It's going to be podcast that where I going to be talking about aspects of software automation for executives and developers. And we're going to mix it also with some life aspects of everyday life so we can take our ties off and do like break time together.

Thanks again for your automation awesomeness. The links to everything of value we covered in this episode. Head on over to testguild.com a469 and if the show has helped you in any way, why not rate it and review it in itunes? Reviews really help in the rankings of the show and I read each and every one of them. So that's it for this episode of the Test Guild Automation Podcast. I'm Joe. My mission is to help you succeed with creating end to end full stack automation awesomeness. As always, test everything and keep the good. Cheers.

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