RoboCon Recap: Testing, Networking, and Building with Robot Framework with Tatu Aalto, Mark Moberts and Frank Van der Kuur

Foreign.

Get ready to discover the most actionable end to end automation advice for some of the smartest testers on the planet. Hey, I'm Joe Calantonio, host of the Test Guild Automation podcast and my goal is to help you succeed with creating automation awesomeness.

Hey, it's Joe and welcome to another episode of the Test Guild Automation Podcast. Today we'll be talking with a bunch of folks from robocon. So we're going to be talking to Tatu, Mark and Frank all about some key Learnings from the RoboCon 2024 that took place last month. So during the online in person edition in Helsinki, participants were treated to a bunch of different talks, tutorials, workshops and community days. And so we're going to dive into key learnings, what it was like to be a participant, what it was like to be a speaker, all kinds of things. And why you definitely need to join next year of what you might have missed out on at robocon. And also you're going to learn some key insights and lessons learned from the conference, maybe discover some insights around robot framework and how it can help you with your day to day robot framework automation efforts. You don't want to miss this episode. Check it out. Hey guys, welcome to the guild.

Hi, good afternoon.

Hi Joe.

Hello.

Awesome. Great to have you all. I thought we'd go around the room first and just have you all introduce yourselves. So based on how I see them on my screen, Mark, let's start with you.

Sure, yeah. I'm Mark, I'm from the Netherlands. I've been working in test automation for the past five years and working with robot framework all the time. I do call myself sometimes a robot framework fanboy.

So.

Good to know. Tatu.

Hi, I'm Tatu, I'm from Finland. I work for Au Pair which is a bank in Finland and I also do few stuff for the community. I for example, maintain the browser library.

Awesome. And Frank, welcome to the guild.

Yeah. Hi. So I'm from Holland as well, the same as Mark. I work for the Dutch consultancy company BQA and I thought about this a while back and I think I'm using the robot framework since version 2.7 or 2.8. So I guess I'm a long time user and also one of the robot framework trainers here in Holland.

Awesome. So there are a lot of frameworks out there and I'm already off script. But I'm just curious to know. You all seem to be very active, very into robot framework. And Mark, you even said that you're a fanboy So I thought, like, we start off, why robot framework? Of all the type of options out there, why are you a fanboy of robot framework?

The first reason for me is that I always worked a lot with Python and of course robot framework is built in Python and is fully integratable with Python. So that makes it very easy for me to extend it. And the second reason is the readability. I've worked with some other frameworks as well, some other testing tools and robots frameworks is just the most readable one that I worked with. And that's easy for me, that's easy for a lot of my colleagues and for a lot of people.

Great. How about you, Tatu?

I like the features. There's lots of stuff that I can do with the framework. I can go deeply in the Python world, I can stick in the robot framework line. I can do a lot of stuff before and after the test execution, which I can find many of the features in some testing framework, but I cannot find everything in one other testing framework outside of the robot framework.

Great.

And Frank, so what I'm thinking, if you're looking at test automation frameworks, is that the robot framework is, I think, by far the easiest framework to learn when you also want to do a lot of different stuff. So it's not only browser testing, it's also API, mobile devices and all other kinds of stuff. So, and that combined with the easy to read and the easy to use features of robot Framework, I think that makes it stand out a lot.

Love it. So, you know, it's a tool that I think a lot of people, it's been around for a bit and it seems like it could do everything. Every time I go to one of these events myself, hosting it, I'm like, wow, I didn't know it could do that. I know Mark had a session on like man in the Middle Attack and all kinds of cool things. So Frank, I think your session was on no common pitfalls of robot framework. So you say it's easy to start with, but it's also to me, so expansive that. And that's good and bad. Like the good is that you could do anything, the bad is you could do anything. So like, what lessons have you learned and what do you think? Like, it's so flexible. What do you think based on pitfalls that people could run into with the framework?

Well, you're right, Whit, we had a talk about it and I think there are quite a few other talks about the do's and don'ts when using the robot Framework. I think the most important thing, if you start with the robot framework, just give it a thought before you go. You go into a deep dive and also try to find some people around you that actually worked with the framework before, because you're completely right. You can do a lot and you can do a lot of things not in the most or best way. So, yeah, get into contact with somebody who've worked with robot framework before. That will definitely help you in setting it up in the correct way. Yeah.

So Tetu, you know, you've worked on different plugins, I think, for robot framework. Is there anything you see that people aren't taking advantage of or maybe calming pitfalls that they may run into?

Well, I think many people do the same mistake that I also did, that they want to put too much logic or too much stuff in the robot framework land and somehow they are afraid to step more in the Python land and maybe concentrate their keywords and logic outside of the robot framework Test data.

Do you find that a lot of people may create a library without knowing there's already an existing library out there? And you're like, oh my gosh, we already have this. How come people don't know about it?

Well, yes, people do create lots of new libraries. I think there's a lot of libraries that we don't see which are inside of the company or inside of the organizations. They do a thing which is not easily possible with the current library. They may extend it. We do it also a lot, or maybe just the old one is so it's not any more maintained and you cannot reach the maintainers. Like there's a bunch of different versions for the Excel library and they do a little bit different things. But because not all the Excel libraries are not there, you maintain you need a new one to get new stuff in.

Nice. So I guess around that same thing I learned what I learned at the event, I probably got it wrong. It's either Marketplace or Market Square. Where people can go to find is that. I don't know, can anyone speak to that, how that might help people?

It's a market square. It's a place. It's actually also a place in Helsinki, but it's a market square. It's where we try to collect libraries and other things around the robot framework community which are not published by the Foundation.

One nice addition is that lately we, the Market Square, acquired the awesome robot framework repository, which is like a collection of several libraries and all of it in one page. And you can easily find new libraries, new tools, whatever you Want, which is already there, which is already existing, so you don't necessarily have to create a new one every time. And it's also a new addition to Marketsquare, so that's nice that it's now going to be maintained by the community.

So I think the Marketsquare, one of the most positive things of that being that a lot of libraries are in that same place. Normally spoken, we have a big community as Robot Framework, and you've got a lot of people working on a lot of different libraries. But like you said, Joe, it's not that you can quite easily find all those libraries. You really need to know what you're looking for. And of course, on the Robot Framework website, we already have the resource page, the resources where you can find quite a few libraries, but you can't find them all. And the Marketsquare is really reaching out to the community and saying, well, please place your library here so everybody can find it. But another thing that I think is quite good is that it helps ensure that if one of the maintainers or creators is going about and do another thing, that the community can still work on the library itself. Because we have a lot of Robot Framework libraries, but we also have quite a lot of unmaintained libraries. And if the original creator is going on a really long holiday or he switches jobs or whatever, that library is just, it isn't maintained anymore. But it's a good starting point for new maintainers and I think the market square is really helping out there.

All right, so let's continue with that train of thought then. I know you already did a session on contributing to Robot Framework, so if someone did find a plugin that may be not abandoned, but maybe it's not being updated, how hard is it to start contributing? A lot of times people like, oh, I don't, I'm not a programming genius, I can't do this. Other different ways you can contribute, do you have to be a Python master? Like, how does that work?

So I think you can contribute in quite a few different ways. Of course, the number one approach, or the most common approach is, well, I'm going to work on this library. And for that it is good if you know a bit of Python. Then again, Python isn't the hardest programming language in the world, but also a lot of maintainers love it when you help them. Just testing the stuff out, writing some documentation, using it is quite possibly the best way in helping out. Even if it was just if you're creating a library, you put in quite a bit of effort. And then seeing other people using it, that really helps to keep the drive going to create it and maintain it and add new features. So there are a lot of different.

Ways to help by using those libraries, you might need some new features, you might want some extra functionality, or you might encounter some bugs. And instead of a pull request, creating an issue with a requested feature or a bug that you found can also help in maintaining the library. And then someone else might be able to pick it up who wants to contribute but doesn't know how to start and does know Python. And even without knowing Python yourself, you could contribute in that way as well.

And also if you, because you are a tester and you most likely are robot framework user, you could also look the tests that the library has and you could see that most likely that library doesn't cover everything. I know, I'm guilty. We don't test all possible things also in the browser library. So enhancing our test coverage or features in that way is also helpful because when I'm coding something, I'm most likely going to miss something. And with our projects, I don't really have second pair of eyes for those things. We trust each other. Even though I have partners to run the project, we don't usually do reviews. We just trust that the one is doing good enough job. So looking also those type of things can be useful and it's also contributing.

Yeah, and a good thing about those tests, I don't know how it is with you guys, but those tests are for me also a way of documenting. Because if I use a library and I want to do something that I don't really know how to do, then I read the keyword documentation. Sometimes I understand it, sometimes I still don't. But if you then dive into the tests of those library, quite often you just find the exact same thing you're looking for with a real life example in it. Because while it is testing that part.

Of the library, it is true. I can remember many times somebody asks something somewhere in the slack or in the photo and then I, I don't remember how that particular keyword works. I go look the accepted test and then I point him the link that here it is, here is how you use your keyword.

Awesome. And so you know, that's another thing I always learned from these events, especially from the share is the community is so welcoming. So if someone did want to contribute, I know that that's one thing I always look for when I'm looking for a tool is how active is the community, how open are they and it seems that this is a big community. It's been around for a while and you're all very welcoming. So that's something that if someone is worried, like, oh, I'm not going to get the support or no one's going to help out or I'll be open to it, I would just say from something I've learned is it's a very open community that is encouraging and looking for contributors. So I think it's a good place to start for sure. So much.

Mark.

You know, another thing, once again, I always, like I mentioned already, is I always find like, wow, I didn't know robot framework can do that. And I think maybe because this people don't really know what robot framework is, to me it's almost like a container that sits above different plugins and different functionalities. But. And so one of those areas of security, there was a few sessions on security that I was really happy to see. And yours I think was on something to do a man in the middle attack. So were you using robot framework to help with security testing or was this just session in general on how to do a man in the middle attack without.

No, it was more of how you can use that technique to enhance your testing. So in cases where you have issues with certain services that are up or down or whatever, this technique can also help you to improve your testing, to make sure that you can test scenarios that you normally might not be able to test. So it's not necessarily attacking, it's manipulating your data in a sense that it enhances your testing rather than trying to break security.

Gotcha. Do you know, are there any libraries within robot framework that do address security specifically?

There was. I don't know for sure if it's called a library, but there was a talk by someone in Helsinki, I forgot her name at the moment, who was talking about fuzzing and how you can use robot framework combined with fuzzing to check the vulnerabilities in API testing. So that's one of the examples that I know.

Absolutely. So I guess let's just address just for people that may be unfamiliar with robot framework, this probably would have been a good question asked to set the stage. Like, what they're talking about security. Is this a security tool like Tattoo? What is robot framework too? Like, if someone has no idea, like why are they talking about browser and API and security? I don't understand what we're doing here.

It is kind of like what the word says. It's a framework that allows you to do many things and testing Android or mobile devices or in browsers or in Windows desktop applications, you just need to find the correct library to do your thing. And usually it's not only thing you usually have when you are talking with the mobile device. You also have a backend where you want to connect and you have a, maybe you want to connect to a database or you can do many stuff or many different kind of things in one single framework. So you can plug and play kind of.

Yeah, plug and play. Okay, cool. So Frank, when you talk to teams like how do you explain it? Do people sometimes get confused what exactly the power that's available but not know?

Well, when I am giving robot framework training, basic foundation training, then there are two things I always try to explain. First, I always get our good old test pyramid out of the closet and I say, well, every test automation engineer needs to know the test automation pyramid. And in most cases, if you look at the robot framework, when we do test automation with the robot framework, we do the top levels of the test automation pyramid. So it isn't really useful for unit testing, but it is very useful for the functional testing. So that's the first thing I always try to explain. So use it for the top level tests then. The other thing I always try to explain is that you got your testing script and underneath that you got basically that's what the robot framework does. So it interprets your test script and then robot framework does its magic and it can do so because underneath the robot framework you got all those different libraries that doing browsers, mobile devices, desktop applications, databases, embedded systems. We've learned during robocon. And those libraries really create the pass through between the robot framework itself and the system on the test that you're testing. So those I think are the two basic things you need to know about the robot framework. That it is a framework that interprets your test script, then uses a library that really communicates with your system on the test. And well, basically most libraries focus on the top side of the test automation pyramid.

I 100% agree. So speaking about tattoo, you know, a lot of people when they think of web browsers, they think of just Selenium. And because you said this is a framework, there's different types of ways you codomate. I think the browser library addresses playwright, maybe little plug for what is the browser library. People are like, oh, is this just Selenium based?

No, we use Microsoft Playwright underneath it. Basically we had argument about the name and people didn't want to go with the playwright library because they thought that it won't sell enough. But now I'm seeing the drawbacks of the name because bunch of questions of different kind of process automation tends to end our plate. So I think we have gone with the Playwright Library name for sure. But it's basically you can see that it does the same thing as Selenium Library. For Selenium, it kind of concentrates or extracts to Playwright methods to a higher level of things as a keyword in the Robot Framework site. But instead of using Selenium, use Playwright underneath it. And that's the basic idea.

Nice. So one thing that I learned at the event, one thing that came up was for some reason people thought because you were demonstrating the browser library, I think we were talking about how to port over or move a project over. People like oh, is there no longer going to be support for Selenium? But that is not the case. So I learned. So any thoughts on that and maybe any confusion that came up during the event that you're like, hold up, we're not saying we're going to Playwright, it's just another option.

Selenium Library and browser are kind of like friendly rivals and I think none of them are going away because there's a lot of community orally using both of these libraries and it's good to compete because it makes the both libraries better and they are here for the state. It's just a different tooling for different kind of problem. And it depends on your context and your use cases which one you should choose. It's you can make bad things in both libraries and good things also.

So you also were all speakers. But I'm just curious to know how your experiences maybe a participant in other sessions, what that felt like or what you may have learned or any key takeaways. So Mark, any thoughts on were you able to catch any other sessions? I know you mentioned the fuzzing one with API that you learned something about, but any other things that stood out for you as an attendee?

So first of all, I was a participant in Helsinki, so I was able to just look and visit and listen to all the talks. And one of the things that I saw a lot is how strong the community is. So both in the talks and also in the in the hallway talks, in talking to people in Helsinki. And one of the other things that came up is how everyone is busy with styling, how dealing with project architecture and all of those things. That's something that came up a lot and also inspired me to start looking again at my own frameworks as well. And I think that what I picked up most is just a lot of inspiration from all the different talks. Some talks were totally not relevant for me, but I still had some points that could inspire me. Like Stavrula, she had some talk about Microwaving robot was the name of it. It was about some embedded system in Nokia which is totally irrelevant for me. But she had some very interesting approaches that I can relate in my current work. So I could learn from that as well. Even though we don't work on the same system, we don't work in the same environment. None of it. So I think that's most of it, mostly inspiration.

Absolutely. And Mark, I think you were also your first time speaking here. So was it your first time speaker ever? First time speaking at this event and any key takeaways or recommendations for people that want to be a speaker?

It was the first time speaking for robocon. I spoke once before at a conference which was organized by my company, so that's pretty easy to get in. What I would say is if you have an idea, just pitch it. I pitched it and I was like, I'm probably not going to make it. And I was surprised. I was. And it was a lot of fun. I'm very happy I did it. It was, I won't say scary, but it was exciting and I'm very happy I did it.

Awesome. Frank, any key takeaways that you got out of the events?

Looking at the conference itself as a participant, there are two things that absolutely stand out for me. That's the first one being is that there is just an enormous amount of different talks. So it's covering all kinds of topics and no matter what your expectations are beforehand, you will take a lot home with you. And I'm really looking forward to the recordings of all the talks. I have a lot of catching up to do. And the second thing that stands out for me is that maybe even more important than the actual talks are all the hallway talks. It's so easy to talk to the speakers, to other participants, to the organizers of the conference and that adds a lot to the experience of the conference. So all in all, I think I spent six or seven days on the conference and normally spoken after one or two days I think, well, I've talked to everybody. Now after six or seven days I'm still, oh, I need to speak to him and I need to speak to him or her. So yeah, awesome.

How about you, Tatu?

I'm going to try out. There was a lot of mentioning or two talks about the Reporting how did they one changed how the local file looks so that it's better for the I think not auditing for some supervisors who are not so technical. They strip all the technical details away. I think I'm going to try something similar and other one was they exported the reporting reports to some external services. And I think I will also play with that kind of idea and I have no idea what I will choose but I think we need to do something similar on the topic. And I also agree that talking to people is the best part of the conference. And I also like the open day before the conference where it's basically open space, people can do whatever they want. And that's just a wonderful thing to meet new people and talk, discuss with people and do something together also.

Absolutely. And that's another thing I always learn when I host these events is it's not just the on site for community and interactions. There's a really good community online during this event as well in Gathertown where it kind of simulates the hallway track type conversations you have. So by joining the online you don't miss out necessarily on the in person even though probably in person's a little bit better. But it's a. They do give you an opportunity to have that hallway track feel and a real unique way. I think you all do it really well there at robocon. So in Gathertown. So that's something I really enjoyed as well. So I always ask speakers. I'm just curious to know you gave a session. Were there any questions that came up to made you think like huh, you know, I didn't anticipate that question so I kind of learned from it. Or maybe next time you give it you would tweak it because not only were you teaching, but you were learning because someone gave you some feedback or some sort of nugget that you took away even though you were speaking. I don't know if anyone had those kind of aha moments or questions that kind of caught your attention.

Yes, I was talking about testing in production and then somebody asked me a question that what if. What if you cannot test in production, what do you do then? And then. And I hadn't thought about that scenario beforehand and that is also possible. And that made me think that how you could do that if you cannot run your test in production, what else you should then do? And now I'm in a place where I cannot run my test in production. I have to think something else.

Yeah.

Cool. Frank or Mark, any thoughts on this?

Well, one of the things I've came back with is that more than one? People were asking me, like, well, Frank, you had a nice talk about how you can go about setting up your robot framework, but can we find it somewhere? Because it's a talk and you gave quite a high overview about what you should do and what you shouldn't. But do you have something like a book or a video or something explaining it in more detail? And well, that was something I took with me.

Yeah, great advice, good feedback. Mark, anything like, were you surprised how many people knew or didn't know? Man in the middle attack. You said you were surprised your topic was chosen, but I think it's a great topic. So any feedback on your session? Like, wow, thank you for this. I didn't know this was possible or I didn't know this is something I should worry about.

I got a lot of reactions from a lot of people and some of them are still in contact with me about how they can also contribute and ideas that they have. Like, hey, I want to do this with your library. Can we add this? And I'm like, okay, sure, make a PR and go ahead, just build it. And so I think that's really nice. And that's also something that came forward from the conference. Of course, having a talk about it makes sure that people know about it. And you can also see a spike in the downloads of the library during the conference. And I also learned a lot from the discussions with people also in the days after the conference. Not just in the 10, 20 minutes after the talk, but also in the days after.

Great. And just so people know if for some reason they had a ticket and they missed the event. The recordings are available to people that have tickets and I think recordings be available later to others later on. But that's one of the benefits of joining the event is that you actually get access to all the recordings. So it's awesome. So if you miss Robocon 2024, you don't want to miss 2025. And just stay tuned for more information on that because I know they run it every year and I hope that you all join us there as well. Okay, guys, before we go, is there one piece of actual advice you can give to someone to help them with their robot framework automation efforts? And what's the best way to find a contact? Once again, we'll start with Mark and we'll end with Frank. Any thoughts, Mark?

Yeah, I would say that one of the best things you can do is to just join the slack. It's the one spot where I Think everyone from all of us and the foundation members and everyone who's part of the Robot Framework community can come and talk about Robot Framework and ask questions. I would say that that's the first piece of advice.

Great advice, Mark. Best way to contact you through the Slack. Okay, perfect. Slack is the way to go. Yeah, it's a huge community and we'll have a link to that in the show notes for sure.

Tatu I was going to say same as Mark, just joined the Slack and ask there's no wrong questions.

Awesome. No playwright suggestions on the browser.

I'm in the Slack. See me in the channel.

Yeah, awesome. Frank.

So I think the Robot Framework foundation did a really good job in setting up and facilitating the community the past few years. Like I said, I was using the robot framework, I think in 2.7 or 2.8. So in that time the community, it was already there, but it wasn't facilitated in the same way it is now. And when you're getting started with the robot framework, start off with the website. The resources are there, the style guide that's new is there. Also the link to the Slack channel is there. And if you have any questions, just drop a post. Be it in Slack or at the forum, use the community that is set up over the past few years and there are a lot of people that are willing to help you.

Great advice. And Farkha, are you in Slack as well? The Slack Channel?

Of course I am.

Awesome. All right, thank you so much guys for this really great sessions and thank you for so much for contributing to robocon making it awesome. And everyone should definitely check out robot framework and robocon 2025 when it comes around. So thank you everyone for joining us and we'll catch you next time. Thanks again for your automation awesomeness. The links to everything of value we covered in this episode, head on over to testguild.com a490 and if the show has helped you in any way, why not rate it and review it in itunes? Reviews really help in the rankings of the show and I read each and every one of them. So that's it for this episode of the Test Guild Automation Podcast. I'm Joe. My mission is to help you succeed with creating end to end full stack automation awesomeness. As always, test everything and keep the good. Cheers.

Hey, thanks again for listening. If you're not already part of our awesome community of 27,000 of the smartest testers, DevOps and automation professionals in the world, we'd love to have you join the fam@test guild.com and if you're in the DevOps automation software testing space, or you're a test tool provider and want to offer real world value that can improve the skills or solve a problem for the Guild community, I'd love to hear from you. Head on over to test guild.info and let's make it happen.