Training and Career Paths for Testers (Become and SDET) with Kuzzat Altay

Foreign.

Get ready to discover the most actionable end to end automation advice for some of the smartest testers on the planet. Hey, I'm Joe Calantonio, host of the Test Guild Automation Podcast and my goal is to help you succeed with creating automation awesomeness.

Hey it's Joe and welcome to another.

Episode of the Test Guild Automation Podcast.

And today we'll be talking with Kazaa.

All about training and career paths for testers. Really interesting story. Kaza is a leading Uyghur American businessman, tech entrepreneur and human rights activist. He has a really great story. He's also the Chief Executive Officer at Sadio and after arriving in the United States as a refugee in 2008 with no English and few contacts, he taught himself how to code and become a respected automation developer for companies like Fannie Mae, CGI and Accenture, where he worked on the role of Obamacare project. So really came from made himself up and so I think you're going to learn a lot how to become a developer or how to become an SDAT just by hearing how he did it. And you're also going to learn about an awesome training. I think it's really going to help you as well if you're interested in really upping your game to become a respected SDA as well.

Side IO was founded in 2015 and.

It really helps transform coding novices into into IT professionals, equipping them to meet industry demands. And so they really have a great learning approach that nurtures confidence and ignites forgotten potential and empowers individuals to make significant life changes like Kazat did himself. So they provide more than just a program. I think you really want to learn and listen all the way to the end to learn more about this program and this awesome story on Kazat's journey and how to elevate your game into a Java ESTA as well. You don't want to miss it. Check it out.

This episode of the Test Guild Automation Podcast is sponsored by the Test Guild. Test Guild offers amazing partnership plans that cater to your brand awareness, lead generation.

And thought leadership goals. Get your products and services in front of your ideal target audience.

Our satisfied clients rave about the results they've seen from partnering with us, from boosted event attendance to impressive roi. Visit our website and let's talk about how Test Guild can take your brand to the next level. Head on over to test guild.info and let's talk.

Hey Kassat, welcome to the Guild.

Hey Joe, thank you.

Really honored and excited to have you on the program.

Today, I guess. Before we get into it, is there anything in your bio that I missed that you want the Guild to know more about?

Yeah. Thank you so much. I think it was just overwhelming titles and stuff. I would rather go more casual.

Absolutely. So, just curious to know. You have a really interesting story. I thought we'd start there and then work our way to the SDAT stuff as well.

So can you tell us a little.

Bit more about your journey? How you made it to America and then how you became an sda, I guess, is where we should start.

Wow. I can write a book about it one day. But I was born technically in China, which is a communist nation, but I'm not Chinese. Where Turkic people towards Central Asia, where China calls Xinjiang and we call East Turkistan. So if people are not familiar with Uyghur people, if you know Uzbekistan, if you know any Uzbek or Kazakh, we're very similar. We're kind of relative cousins with those nations. So, unfortunately, I was born. I wouldn't say unfortunate, but it's just hard to explain that way. I was born in a very prominent business family in East Turkestan region under Chinese occupation. So my family decided to speak up for the human rights and forced abortion issues in our region conducted by Chinese government. So when I was teenager, our family was labeled Enemy of States. So they seized our wealth and all our business and properties. Many adults in my family went to jail. So I had very kind of tough childhood. I remember in high school, people were scared to talk to me and be friends with me because they'll be labeled as well by the Chinese Communist Party. So that's the environment I grew up. So after graduating high school, I kind of get into medical school in Urumqi. It's called Xinjiang Medical School. In the first year, I was unfortunately arrested by Chinese intelligence, and they were threatening to kill me. So at that time, I decided, okay, I have no future in this nation, this country, where my government wants to kill me, so I need to escape. So I think at the young age, 20 years old, I kind of made the, you know, decision to escape. So I was managed to able to get my passport. So with some contacts in the United States, and they called Turkish embassy in Beijing. So I got my Turkish visa, you know, from Beijing, and also kind of paid some officials to see if my name is in the blacklist in the airport. Fortunately, it was not that time. I think they didn't have that much technology. Anyway, I was able to escape in 2005 from China to Turkey, came to Istanbul in 2005, and I stayed there for two years.

I've learned Turkish, you know, modern Turkish in Turkey, and I was doing business translation between Turkish and Chinese. I mean, Chinese is like kind of difficult language. It's not that easy. So I was in Turkey having good life, and I decided to come to United States. So through United Nations Refugee Committee, I became refugee. In 2008, I came to United States with my 10 month old baby, my wife. I was landed in JFK airport. I didn't speak English. I mean, I did technically, yes. No, 1, 2, 3 was my vocabulary at the time. And that was me with a few hundred dollars in my pocket. I thought, you know, America is very easy place to live, but it was extremely difficult. So I came to Fairfax, Virginia from jfk. My cousin, she was in the United States. She took me to Fairfax County Family Services. Because I was refugee. I was able to get food stamp, Medicaid, and some sort of monthly check. And I had a social worker. Her name is Sonia Stufko, rest in peace. She passed away in Covid. She said, you know, you need to learn English. So she sent me to Fairfax County Adult Community Public School to learn English. So I started from a low beginning. High beginning, sorry, Low beginning is. You start from abc. High beginning is if you're able to say, my name is Kozat.

So you start in the high beginning course.

So I studied English in there. And my teacher also, Tom Bellow, he was extremely committed person to people like me. And he said, kuzat, you know, you look like a very hardworking guy. Let me tell you something. He said, repeat after me. I was like, is this guy gonna turn me to Christian or what?

You know, repeat after me. I was like, okay, what?

He said, more English, more money. I was like, So I repeat multiple times. So I was like, I mean, you can translate it if you're immigrant or if you're refugee or some sort.

Even if you're overseas.

I do think more English is more money and more success. So it's not more money. I would say more success. So I really worked very hard to learn English. And my first job was dishwasher. I was extremely happy when I found my first job for $7 an hour, washing the dishes. I texted my wife.

I got a job, you know, washing dishes, you know.

So from there, I worked in the grocery store, I worked in the restaurant as a waiter. I worked as a car salesman. And back then I had two kids. Once I started working because the government, they kind of cut the support. So I had to Be on my own. And you know, like many people understand that, you know, in the US you don't have welfare system. So that. Well, so it was very difficult life. I moved into, you know, the owner of grocery store. I worked in his best basement. So I had to put the curtain in between. It's like one room, no kitchen, only restroom. And two of my kids, we had Ikea furnitures on the, on the right side of the curtain and the left side of the curtain was my bedroom and quote unquote with my wife. So my last job before it, I was delivering package. So I worked for a company called Lasership. I delivered package for $25 a$50 per package per stop. So it was difficult job. I had to bring my own van and chased by dogs in Leesburg and flat tire on the mountain. You know, it was like very difficult job. Also it was like a little bit humiliating because when you deliver a package, you're in the residential area. I don't feel shame. But you have to carry a bottle in the car because, you know, the restroom is the biggest problem when you deliver package. So you have to unfortunately use the bottle for those kind of things. So that was like difficult for me to digest as a person. Came from very wealthy family back home. And one day I was sorting my package. Means that you have a pallet of package, you have to sort your package. There's a guy from my community, he's like, kuzat, I'm learning coding. I looked at him, I was like, okay, of course, you know, you learn. You have master's degree, right? So the thing is, imagine with high school diploma, with no college education, with broken English. And what happens is when you have difficult life, life destroys your self esteem. And in 2011, if you come to me and say kuza, you're like freaking loser.

Okay?

You're a piece of crap.

I would probably say, yeah, of course.

You know, I am piece of crap, right? So that was kind of self esteem that I had. So when he said, I'm learning software testing and coding, I was like, so what? Of course, you know, you deserve, you know, I'm dumb. So I couldn't do it. But one day he said, there is a guy who found a job. He was a pizza delivery guy. I kind of have like this movement. Like I was talking to myself while sorting package. It was Friday, I believe. And I said, kuza, that guy, you know, have college degree. You don't. He speaks English better than you and you have broken English. He's smart, you're Stupid. It took him, I don't know, maybe seven, eight months. It takes you a year maybe, right? So I said, you know, even you fill up a coin, it's like a 50, 50, right? So I said, even I have 1% chance, let me take a shot, right? So I still believe that 1% is greater than 0%. So I went home, I talked to my wife and she said, you know, you're a hard working guy, you can do it. So I found this guy who was teaching. He's a Bangladeshi person. He was teaching Quick Test Professional QTP.

As a legacy tool. Like QTP sounds like the black and white movie now to me.

Anyway, he was teaching QTP and I was so committed, I said, this is my last chance in life and this is how I'm going to change my life. So she would pack my breakfast and lunch, 7am I would grab it. I'll go to the library. I would study until the library is closed every single day. And one day, I remember the first time, it was like this unforgettable memory. The instructor type in the black screen, select star from all employees and semicolon, right? This was my first line of code. I went home, I had this desktop I bought from Costco. So I'm typing, my wife is looking at, is this working? She's behind me, is that working?

Did it work like for half an hour?

Like select stars from employees, right?

It didn't work. I was like, what I'm doing wrong?

30 minutes passed by and finally this 107 rows came. I was like so happy.

It was like as if I hit the jackpot or something. And that time I knew I made it.

Do you know why Half an hour it didn't work?

Because I was a freaking immigrant.

I was spelling it wrong.

That's funny, that happens to everyone.

So then I realized, you know, if you want to learn code, you have.

To learn English better and you have to pay attention to your spelling. Anyway, so one of the interesting thing I did is this. I went to Amazon and I bought software testing books, agile testing books, you know, Quick Test Professional, whatever is related to my area, I was slipping with it. So every single day. And I constantly read, constantly code, constantly visualize myself in that situations. So I think I did well. I've learned fast and I've learned keyword Driven automation framework with qtp. So then after that I applied for my first job after seven, eight months. And this company called Inavalon, they called me. Her name was Jennifer Watson. I believe she was my hr after the face to face interview. She said, kuzat, you know, I was sitting in front of a Panera Bread, you know, paying $2, bought a coffee, you know, applying for jobs in there. She called me, kuzat, you know, we have a good news for you. I was like, yes. She said, would you be able to interested to join our company? I was like, I'm so excited to join. And she said, okay, that's good. She said, would you be agree with working with like $93,000 and you know, 15 days paid vacations with insurance? Right. So insurance is a big deal for me, for my family. So I was so scared. I thought if I said yes immediately, I'll be like, they would know I'm desperate. So I didn't know how to react. So I didn't want to show I'm desperate. I made $28,000 that year delivering packages, chased by dogs. So I mute myself. I took a deep breath and I went back. I pick up the phone again. I said, you know what? It's not about the money only. I think this company is great, the culture is great. The colleagues interviewed me, they looked like amazing people. I think I can learn a lot in this company. She's like, we need people like you.

So I get started and because I was, my life was difficult. So I was always worried that I would lose my job. Like every single day. I thought I was going to get fired because, you know, my life was difficult. I couldn't pay my rent, I couldn't take my son to doctor. I couldn't have a decent dinner with my wife because I was just broke. So because of that situation, I was like ptsd, right? Every day as if somebody's going to fire me. So what I did is this. I went to work 7am in the.

Morning, like before anybody else. My car is the first car in the parking lot. I went to the building, I prayed.

And I started working and learning before people come. Learning the application, reading requirement documents, looking.

At the existing code like everything by 10 o'. Clock. You know, people in, in it, they're spoiled. You think they come, like when I was working in a package delivery, if I laid for two minutes, they're going.

To yell at us, right?

You know, people in it, they're spoiled, they're coming like 9, 30, ish, 45, they start coming, you know what, they, they don't work, they go to, you know, cafeteria, they grab coffee, small talk. When the hell these people are working anyway.

So I was like, by the time.

They get started, I think I get.

My 80% of the work done. And so I can look calm as if I'm not like working that hard.

I don't know, I was because of difficult life.

I think that was like a survival instinct.

So that's how I work.

I worked extremely hard. I was supporting the colleagues and whatever there's responsibility I was taking. And in three months, right, I had a guy, his name was Pete. You know, I think because of I'm immigrant and you know, most immigrants, they have this prejudice as if, you know, there is lots of racism going on. So unfortunately I had this feeling that my manager didn't like me just because of my, I mean, because I think it's my psychological complication. It's not about him. So one day I was sitting, he tapped my shoulder, okay.

I knew this guy didn't like me.

I looked at him, he said, come with me. I was like, man, you know, today is the day I'm getting fired.

I'm getting fired. So I walked into his office, he's sat in his desk, he handed me.

This two page paper. He said, take a look. I was like, okay, I'm gonna sign this and leave.

So I, I started reading.

It says, exceed expectation in performance and like 5% increase in salary and $2,000 bonus. I was like, what?

Never seen when I was working in.

Retail, when I was working as a.

Butcher, as a waiter, $2,000. That nobody in life give you that kind of money. So I was like, this money is for free. It's crazy.

So that day I made it. I believe that I made it. I came home very happy. And then I, after a few months, I realized I was one of the top performer in the company. So that time I started realizing, you know, people are talking in the organization, lots of them have master's degree in computer science, things like that.

So at some point I was better.

Unfortunately. This is the thing that I'm going to be unapologetically honest with somebody with high school diploma, new in the United States.

I've seen people with 12 years, 13 years experience.

I think I was better. And then I was like, okay. Something that I realized is I kind of get a little bit mad at the society. Why? Because I said, you know why people.

Like me, like, I'm hard working, dad.

My wife, the people that we represent. Underdogs, right? It could be somebody's refugee, it could be somebody's immigrant, it could be somebody study history now teaching some sessions in museum, like, what are you going to do with a PhD in history? Like, who's Going to pay you, right? Or you study music. Couldn't become Justin Bieber. What are you going to do? Play guitar in the Metro, right? Like people looking for second opportunity in life. I was like, okay, maybe this people working in the 711 from 7am to 11pm is not that incompetent.

I think people working in it, they are not in terms of IQ or.

EQ or anything else is technically necessarily.

Better than the people working in the.

Restaurants, driving doordash, driving Uber. I think people simply have better life because they end up in the right spot, in the right direction. And it is. If you ask like 10 years ago.

Who are the IT companies?

People are like Google, Amazon, Apple, like now. Today, there's no IT companies because every company is IT company. When was the last time you went to bank? Everything is online transaction now, right now, all of a sudden banks are like, we're not bank, we're fintech companies, we're healthcare tech companies.

Right now if you look at all.

The vehicles now with autonomous driving, all those things, cars, you're required to be IT now. So I think today there's tremendous amounts of explosion in terms of demand. The more demand, the more you pay and there's more opportunity. So I thought people like me deserve better. So from 2012, from my first job, I was working in Avlon, CGI, Accenture, Fannie Mae.

I didn't think this as a business.

But I was just helping people to learn coding in libraries. And when I see, for example, I go to Panera Bread, I get chocolate croissant and coffee. I see this very nice person serving there. I was like, she's smiling, right?

She's. Her attitude is so awesome. I was like, this is perfect for.

It, you know, So I just like.

Spend 15 minutes for free just because.

I want people to have better life. So I start pitching, you know, why they should learn it, whatever, right?

So that's how, like, I didn't know I was paving my road to the.

Business, but, like, I was just doing for, you know, because of my own pain that I had in life and somebody had changed their life. I feel good about myself and them. In 2015, what happened was, you know, as soon as I get out of.

Work, people start calling.

And one day a guy, he said, kuzat, you know, thank you so much.

I was like, for what?

He said, last time I called you, she said, I'm sorry, I recorded your conversation.

He was asking me interview question.

I was like, what?

I said. He said, back then, we didn't have AI all This stuff. He was like, I recorded your conversation. I typed in word, I memorized it. I went to interview, I got offer. And that time I was like, okay, maybe I should start teaching. So I paid this $5, you know, things to a fiverr. I made a very dumb video. I don't know why people even call me for that stupid video, but people start calling me. He said, kuzat.

You know, there's a test automation school. Where's your office?

I was like, come to Panera.

So they used to come to Panera Bread, and I show them my presentation.

And at the end, I show them my paycheck.

And they're like.

They look at me with a very strong English accent.

They look at my paycheck, they're like, okay, if this stupid guy can do it, of course I can do it.

So in 2015, we started our first boot camp in Tyson's Corner, Virginia, with the guy I know, he has a construction firm, and I rented his conference room because he was not using afternoons and in the weekends. So every day I would go there, set up the rooms, and there was 17 students that we started. So now today, we have more than 300 employees, and we are our students in 34 countries. And we don't teach QTPS anymore. We became like, we focused on Java as a programming language, and we teach Selenium.

So this is kind of story.

I know it's long, but, you know, this is in a nutshell, what happened in the past few years.

That's incredible, incredible story. So, you know, someone's listening to this. I get a lot of questions. How do I get into testing? I do manual testing. How do I learn coding? I always think, you know, and everyone always says coding is like a language. I'm always impressed by people that speak multiple languages. Did you find that as an asset, though, looking back, like, being able to learn, I think sounds like, you know, three languages. Was that enabling you to learn coding better?

So I am not necessarily from computer science background. Right. So. But the thing is, what I've realized myself organically is I speak four languages, and all of them are native. So when I started learning coding, I did felt like syntax is grammar and human language is how you communicate with humans. Coding language is how do you efficiently communicate with machines and give them commands? I think it helps if you speak multiple languages. For sure.

Absolutely. And I guess like you said, this was before AI machine learning. So another question I get asked is, do I even need to learn coding now? Because I could just go to a. You Know any type of coding tool now and it has rather than a telesense, it's almost like it will complete the sentence for you. Any thoughts on that?

Yeah, I think it's like now it.

Became like very philosophical question that everybody's asking. So I would say we do have calculator, right? And it's calculating everything and why would you even bother to learn math? Are you crazy?

Why would you waste your time? Right?

So I do think coding is something.

For first of all, like calculator did.

Not take the math away. We still have to learn.

Second is as a person, I know.

Myself before coding and after coding it changed my entire thought structure.

It rewired my brain.

I think more efficiently, I am more.

Powerful person because I upgraded my cpu. So I would say like whether you make money with coding or not, it's.

Gonna make you a more efficient person, right? Logical thinkings, problem solving, analytical thinking, things like that.

Number three is this.

Yes, AI is going to take take away lots of jobs.

Not coding first.

It's going to take away all the repetitive jobs. That is, you know, doesn't require lots of cognitive work. But the thing is I would believe.

That in terms of knowledge work, whoever.

Can use AI more will take away those jobs.

So it means that still you have.

To use how to learn AI and how it works. And I believe there is lots of opportunity coding, I don't think it's going to go away. But you, you still need learned coding to be able to develop AI, use AI, maintain AI. I just going to give you like a little bit. This is also a pretty dumb analogy, but I'll go ahead anyway. My dad adopted a teenager when I was a kid and he was grew up in the street, so the guy didn't have education.

So one day we were traveling and he got sick.

He said my stomach was uncomfortable, like.

Headache or something, I don't know, I don't remember. But because he didn't know what to do, he just opened our cabinet and he saw all the medicines and he said, you know one of them is going to work, right? So he took all the medicine and.

He ended up in er. He almost died.

And we asked him, why would you do that? Are you committing to suicide?

He said, no, I thought one of.

Them was going to work out. So now it's like when you use AI, if you don't know technically if what ChatGPT is putting out there, if it's BS or not, you cannot just copy paste the code. Even when AI gives you something, you need to be able to understand what the hell is going on there. So you still have to have technical.

Coding experience and logical thinking, things like that. So I would still say coding is.

Still one of the most important thing.

That you have to learn in life.

Absolutely love it. And also in the pre show you mentioned something that caught my attention. Speaking of trends in AI, you speak with a lot of employers I guess and it sounds like is someone that just knows automation, is that enough now or do they need to know more? You know we've seen a shift where almost like a tester needs to be a developer as well. Have you seen that as well or any trends from employers of what they're looking for from a QA person.

So I do think if you are manual tester, you know, if you are start coding and doing automation, it's much better for you if you're automation developer. Now, you know, Capital One is building.

The have a beautiful new building in.

Tyson's corner, like in front of our building. And they recently kind of pushed a new way and what they're doing is they said, you know what we want cross functional team members, we want developers.

To be able to test and testers to be able to develop.

Now we all know for people with the QA background, you know, like developers to test, like what are you going to do? Clicking a button to see if it's.

Not working, like they can do it right.

So if you know, especially with the help of ChatGPT, writing test cases, all those things much easier.

But when you look at the testers to be able to develop, it's hard. So I think, you know, I do think people still have to constantly upgrade.

Themselves for more technical. Something I've learned in life is this, right?

The more technical job you do or.

The more difficult job you do, the.

Better income potential you have and the.

Better job security you have.

If Jimmy works for a company and with his competency, if I can find.

8 million people on indeed like Jimmy's price or his salary goes down and.

I can lay off Jimmy anytime and.

Hire another 10,000 Jimmy all the time. So.

But if Jimmy is constantly improving himself and constantly learning more codings and more, you know, skills, this guy is hard to find, number one and hard to let go. Therefore more job security and more income. I think whether you are in qa.

You are in developer, whatever you do.

It'S like I think it has something.

To do with our educational system. So in the industrial age, what you do is you go to college and.

You study for 20 years, you get.

Your diploma, you throw your cap, you know, hat, you take a nice ceremony, pictures and done right, you don't learn anymore.

But I think fundamentally it's like would you eat in the first year of the month, let's say you eating for 30 days every single day, a lot.

Of meals and say, you know what.

For the rest of the 11 months I don't have to eat. It doesn't work that way. So just like that. The food of the brain is knowledge. What do you do? You don't stop learning once you graduate from college. You have to constantly upgrade yourself, constantly learn. Just like if companies don't innovate, they go down. Was Nokia a bad company? No, they were great company. I love Nokia. I have great memory with Nokia. But I never buy Nokia again because it's gone.

I use iPhone now.

So if you're not innovating just like a company which is constantly reinvent yourself, constantly learn new skills, then you know, if you're being test Automation Developer for 18 years, come on bro, like, you.

Know, it's not my fault anymore because.

People, they have to pay you at what, $200,000, they can fire someone newbies with the 80,000, so easier to replace.

Yeah. So speaking of that innovating and always constantly getting better. When I was coming up, there weren't any programs or ways to really learn about from a tester's perspective, coating or sdat. So can you talk a little bit more about Cytio? I know you have multiple different programs and just if people are like, oh, this sounds too hard for me to do on my own. I can't do what Kazat did by teaching himself from books and going to the library. I assume you have some secret sauce that you learned from that experience and you baked into some of the programs at siteo. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah. So we started with a SDET program, software development engineering test. So we thought, you know, manual testing, I mean literally you can pay 1999 get, you know, buy a course in udemy.

So you really don't need a coding.

Bootcamp to learn manual testing, honestly. But we would say if somebody is going to get a six figure salary at some point in their career, I think the reason that company hired this.

Person is this person's ability to replace multiple manual testers.

So we started with automation. So we started from scratch.

If you don't know anything, if you.

Know how to open computer, if you speak intermediate English, this is our entry criteria. So we took them and we take them with the seven months training, but we require kind of 30 to 40 hours of like, you know, coding and exercises and learning things like that. Very good mentor support industry mentors, people working in it. They're coming and they're teaching things like that. So it's a seven months software development engineer in test coding bootcamp. And the main coding language they're going to learn is Java. They're going to learn API, they're going to learn SQL. So there are really solid test automation engineers because we put a lot of effort.

I would say if you go to.

It, if somebody's with seven years quality assurance experience but doing manual testing or started learning coding.

But this guy in our boot camp.

Probably writes millions of lines of code that is equivalent to line of codes that they write in. You know, some other people with the entire career. So it's lots of repetition, lots of practice. So they really become very solid test automation developers. And then we realize, okay, it's my own philosophy is constantly learning, constantly upgrading. So we have around 10,000 alumni in 34 countries. And you know, our chief academic officer, he's like kuzat. These people, many years ago they became Aztec. Now they cannot just stay aesthetic forever. They're going to either move up as.

A developer or they're going to move.

Up as from the leadership perspective, right. Maybe management. So we said, okay, let's focus on technical. So we came up with this backend.

Java developer program for seven months for.

People with Java Foundation. So they become java developer in seven months. It's a Java review. And they also learn API, they learn DevOps. The most importantly, they learn data structure and algorithm and they build a real enterprise application. So you don't really get certification and say I have certificate, I have diploma. You don't do that. You go there. You said, I built enterprise level accounting, application invoicing, sales, repository, inventory, things like that.

You can literally show what you have.

Built as a solid application. So that's the program we set up. And also we have cybersecurity and other data science programs as well. That's how like we focus now.

Awesome.

And I know a lot of people.

Listening are probably like, oh, I know I get asked all the time, how do I become an sdat?

So I have a special treat for.

You all who are listening. We're actually doing a special webinar on how to become a java SDAT with zero coding experience or a college degree that's happening on July 13th. And to get there, all you need to do is go to testguild.com Java but I'll also have it in the show notes.

So because I forgot to follow up.

On one question that I wanted to follow up with and that is when you did get your first job within as a automation engineer and you didn't have a college degree, how did you do that? Because a lot of people probably listening, well, I can't do that. How is that possible?

So I'm not sure.

And I would say in the Europe there's still, you know, paper is still important in certain countries and it's credential, right. And but in the US in back then, in 2011 it was much more difficult. And today Apple, Google, Amazon, all these companies, they ditched college degree requirement. You no longer required have to college degree to be able to apply. Back then it was difficult. I would say back then if there's a hundred jobs available, twenty jobs were something that didn't require. So if somebody with college degree had.

100 opportunity, I had 20.

So if you want to be, if.

You have 80% less chance than others.

What do you do? You obviously you work very hard and all I did is you said something called secret sauce, right?

Like I really don't believe in secret sauce.

Kind of cliche things in life, magical magic sauce.

Like what? What do you mean? Like if you look at the human.

History, okay, there's something very, very fundamental, very fundamental rule.

If you work extremely hard in the.

Right direction consistently for very long period of time, you're going to be successful sooner or later. So what I did is I worked extremely hard. I think while others was going to picnic parties, watching Netflix, things like that. I dedicated my life to learn coding and, and learning the concepts of software.

Development, learning the things that is anything.

Related to my job, not only the core job.

So when I went to interview, they're like, there's a book called so good that they cannot ignore something like that. So I was so good, they're like, okay, Kuza, he's like Asian looking guy, I don't like him.

I don't know.

He broken English, right?

This guy, I don't know.

You find 18,000 things that you don't like about me. But they're going to say, however, this guy, he's better than every single person.

That I have ever interviewed, okay? Therefore I think I want to give him a shot.

So I think that's how I did it. I had to work harder than others. But fortunately because people like me now it companies realizing people without conventional or traditional computer science degree can also do the job really well, and they're not entitled, they're not, you know, I from.

Ivy Leagues, you know, you have to pay me more.

Like, so they're humble, they're hardworking, they're like, okay, you know what, I'm getting more result from these people, therefore let's invest more.

I think that's how you do it.

Absolutely. It is hard and you definitely did it the hard way. But I think having programs like this job at SDAT gives at least someone like a syllabus to be able to follow where they're not just struggling on their own to like just work hard but without a guidance. So it seems like this is probably working hard with the guidance is probably going to accelerate their learning even more, I would think.

So here's the thing, right?

If you want to buy a book from library, say how to build a Toyota Corolla and start putting the things.

Together yourself, I guess maybe in two years from junk years, you're going to.

Able to build an average car that is going to stop on the highway at some point and it's dangerous, right?

So can you do it on your own? Absolutely, yes. But the thing is this. I personally believe I'm not genius. I believe most people are not genius.

There are some genius people with the photographic memory.

I know every classroom I walk in. 3% people are like insane. They're like, they look at the things and they just understand instantly. People like me, I have to like punch my face or scratch my head. Like I have to work so hard to get there. Therefore I think ordinary people, ordinary people.

It's going to take a longer time if you want to do something. So what we did is we put.

Together a very comprehensive syllabus and we step by step. If you only know how to speak.

English and have high school diploma at least and a good, decent, you know.

If you want to invest 40 hours a week, we're taking them from there. From the first line of code, hello world. To be able to automate entire, you know, automation framework. Therefore what we did is there's lots of trial and error. For example, if you want to build your own car yourself, you have to make lots of mistake, you have to crash multiple times, you have to get caught by the police, right? So many things will happen. But the thing is, if somebody have that experience already and say these are 18,000 mistakes I made, These are, these are the shortcuts that I have, these are the recipes, these are the things that I wasted my time, I shouldn't have learned. These are the things that I Should have learned, but I didn't learn. So you don't have to go through this. So we put together this thing in.

Seven months from zero to hero.

I think that's important. Just inherit our years of accumulated experience instantly so you get more efficient result. Now one more thing is people look at costs in different ways, right?

People look at this as like, you.

Know what, I'm gonna do it my own. Where I do believe the courses that we're providing, you can find it 1999 in Udemy. So why would you come here, right? But the thing is this, there's something called cost of opportunity. What does that mean? You have Jimmy go to Udemy trying to struggle and try two years to.

Be able to figure out how to get, you know, IT job as automation developer.

But you have Joe to say, you know what, I want to work with professional people. These people know I want to accumulate, I want to inherit their accumulated experience. So they're buying our experience, right? And they're buying the service as well. So what happened is Joe will find a job under a year, let's say seven months, eight months, and Jimmy will two year. We will have 14 months in difference in between. And when you get an IT job.

We'Re talking about, I don't know, 6,000.

8,000, 10,000, sometimes let's say, let's not put 10,000, let's say 8 to $10,000 per month salary. So actually Joe is making more money over this two years time. So it's not only, you know, you're saving money from certain, you know, when you're learning, it's about how efficiently you get into it job and start making more income in it. You know, once you get into it.

The good thing is this, right when.

You drive seven years Uber, you don't become senior Uber analyst. You know, you don't become senior doordash analyst. When you're working in the restaurant industry, all you do is after a year you memorize all the menus, that's all you can get. You don't become senior Vader analyst. But in it is great because once you get in even you start with entry level in one or two years, like really, you kind of increase your technical net worth means that your employability and your salary scale will continuously grow in it.

I think that is kind of something that people need to pay attention.

Yep, great advice for sure. Okay, Kazat, before we go, is there.

One piece of quick actual advice you.

Can give to someone to help them with their automation testing efforts? What's the Best way to find or contact you or learn more about your programs.

I mean they can go to cydeo.com.

C y d e O and also they can check it out our YouTube channel C Y D E O as well. We have lots of genuine authentic success stories.

You know, we have a mother, we.

With three kids graduated and working in it. You have somebody new in the United States, broken English working in it. You have somebody used to be a bodybuilder in a gym, now working in it.

So all these people are authentic success stories.

I would say go take a look and go ask yourself, where do you want to see yourself next year? So one advice I want to share is this, right? There are lots of people, they want.

To get into it, right?

And their let's say your door dash or Uber.

The thing is this, you know, how do you get into if it or.

Better life as a career, as a destination.

If you don't change your direction, how do you expect to get into a.

Different, you know, destination?

Therefore, if you keep driving Uber for a year, next year most likely you're going to be Uber driver. If you are working in the restaurant for another year, next year most likely you're going to be in the restaurant industry. But if you change your direction and take a different step, you'll say, you know what, I've tried this for a year. I've tried Uber.

You know, I don't see a future here.

I've tried xyz, I don't see future here. You don't lose anything by taking a shot on the industry that is growing.

So fast and having exponential growth and growth and paying people so well.

So the thing is, I want people to start able to imagine and visualize seeing themselves, you know, to in this.

Beautiful, you know, buildings that they can.

Work in there and think about lifestyle. Just visualize. If you cannot visualize normally, you cannot.

Achieve people able to see themselves in.

There and think about it, dream about it.

Everything starts from the dream and the visualization.

I would say look at the mirror.

Where do you want to see yourself next year?

Thanks again for your automation awesomeness. The links to evident value we covered in this episode is head on over to testguild.com a454 and if the show has helped you in any way, why not rate it and review it in itunes? Reviews really help in the rankings of the show and I read each and.

Every one of them.

So that's it for this episode of the Test Guild Automation Podcast. I'm Joe and my mission is to help you succeed with creating end to end full stack automation awesomeness. As always, test everything and keep the good.

Cheers.

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