Unlocking Robot Framework: RoboCon HELSINKI with Gerwin Laagland, Markus Stahl and Stavroula Ventoura

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Hey, it's Joe. Welcome to another episode of the Test Guild Automation Podcast. Today we'll be talking with Gerwin, Marcus and Stravola all about automation with robot framework. They're three seasoned experts and also enthusiasts about the robotic framework and they are going to be speaking at the next robocon. I think it's 8th annual one happening in Helsinki. So if you want a good reason to go to Helsinki and want a good reason to do so, grab a ticket now, head on over to Robocon IO and you'll be able to experience these speakers live and in person. You don't want to miss it. Check it out using the link down below. Hey everyone, welcome to the Kilt.

Thank you, Joe.

Hey, thanks.

Hello.

Hey, great to have you all. Really curious to know, before we get into it, there's so many tools out there, why the robot framework? So I'll go how I see left to right. Gerwin, any thoughts like, how did you experience robot framework and how did you become like almost an enthusiast about it?

So for me it was mostly I wanted to do test automation, but I didn't want to focus on the programming of the language so much. And Robot framework allowed me to actually do sort of the programming without actually doing the nitty gritty details of it. And that sped up my work a lot, which is why I started using it.

Very nice. How about you, Marcus?

I. I found it by accident. So I thought I was a Java developer and I wanted to build something with JBhave. And then I joined this company and they used something called Robot Framework. And I was like, what's that? Never heard about I will like go for JBhave and kick robot framework out. But then the first day they showed this to me and I was like, oh, this is what I wanted to do. And since then I did not have any reason to switch. So whenever there is like a challenge because it is a framework, it is very open, it has a very open API, then I can build some glue code or I usually find someone in the community already did this for me. So after eight years I didn't find any Showstopper.

Okay. So I've been working in Nokia since 2009 and about half a year later Peka, Clark and Ismaira came and they said, oh, here's Robot Framework. And this is how you will do automation right now. Because before that we were like writing scripts. It was totally chaos and then suddenly they were like, oh, they're the Finns who came to teach us something new. Wow. And then we're all excited and that's it. It's a short story, but yeah.

Cool. So Stacy, how. I mean you started from ground zero then? Cause it sounds like that's pretty much when it started.

Yes, almost. Pekas, I think finished his thesis. Robot Framework first was around 2008.8ish. So immediately and Nokia believed into an automation tool.

Yeah. The interesting thing is that in 2005 I think it was the first version. So like the upcoming robocon that we're having is going to be 20 years till date. And that means that's why the theme is going to be like From Finland.

With Love is when it started being implemented. But it was finished, I think around 2008.

That's a testament to how it's still being used at a company 20 years after the fact. A lot of times people try the latest and greatest and it doesn't work for them when you have a tried and true framework. So one thing I've noticed is for some reason, maybe, maybe it's just in the US it doesn't seem Robot Framework gets as much love as some of the other tools. I'm always shocked when I host a robocon because it seems like it does everything. So any thoughts on why maybe people may not know as much about Robot Framework as I think they should? I don't know. Stacey, I think you just did a meetup in Athens, look very successful. Any thoughts on how to get people more aware of it?

I think we just need to have more of these events and going to more conferences and advertising it because I don't think people know about it, especially here in Greece or they are a bit afraid of using it because they are saying, okay, I'm doing something very specific, I will use Java or it was just a plain Python. But they don't understand that it's easier to use robot framework. Everything is implemented. They don't have to implement everything from scratching it.

I also think that probably other tools have a company behind it. Even though they have an open source model, they also have a company behind it and they have a business model and they need to earn money so they also invest into marketing. Behind Robot Framework is the Robot Framework foundation. And we have a really tight budget and we just use it for funding ecosystem projects, creating the conference and funding the core development of Robot Framework. But we don't have a huge amount of budget for doing marketing or market research, so we actually don't know how popular it is. We only have indicators like downloads or site visits and so on. Especially in the last two or three years when you go out and talk to people, then suddenly they say, by the way, we use this thing called Robot Framework. And I'm saying, oh, I know this. So suddenly you get these feedback loops. You're not the only one anymore. So I assume it grew organically over the past few years, over the past maybe 20 years. And now in the past three, four years, it's really accelerating and going through the roof from our perspective.

Another perspective that you could look at is that what Robot Framework does is provide an abstraction layer above the technology that is used by a lot of people. So for example, let's take Playwright. The technology is very popular, very present, and a lot of people know how to use it. But Robot Framework does is sit above that technology, make it more accessible by providing keywords to drive Playwright. So when we're talking about Robot Framework, a lot of people tend to confuse the underlying technology with Robot framework or the other way around. And that also makes the conversation sometimes a bit difficult because you want to first separate the two before you start continuing on with the conversation.

Now it's a great point. Playwright is the hot new tool. And a lot of people think that choosing between Robot Framework and Selenium or Playwright, and it's not true, you're actually getting a benefit or a bonus on top of it almost, it seems like that is correct.

So for example, if you use Robot Framework in a specific situation, you can actually say, I would like to use the Selenium technology. But you can also switch that out completely and go to the Playwright technology and not have any additional workflow.

I think it's always difficult for new users to grasp what Robert Feinwerk actually does. So when you, when you are a frontend developer and you want to test your website, you probably go with plain Playwright because that's the challenge you have. And you know, Probably TypeScript or JavaScript, whatever front end language you use, and if you remain a team like this, that you are only front end developers and you are front end developers testing front ends, then you're probably better off with Playwright. But as soon as you have someone in there, like a QA team, that is primary focus is not front end development, but like assessing requirements and testing requirements, you have like a different group of people there. They are not Developers and then you need like a common ground and that is then robot framework. And then also once those people come in, they probably don't only test your front end, they also maybe test your back end and they make some end to end tests. And suddenly you don't have only web automation, but maybe other disciplines as well. Maybe you even need to automate some desktop application. Who knows what freaking integration you need. And then as soon as you need to access a different system under test, then play route won't be enough anymore. So you need some other backend. And robot framework just brings these libraries in and you can switch between web browser and desktop application and mobile and database and so on. Like in one test case if you like.

Exactly. In my company we have to test so many different things. We have to test servers, web pages, different interfaces and red, pli, netconf, snmp. And all of this is done robot framework really easily. And the good thing is that it's global over the company and every product uses that. And they say there's no other framework. That's it. We totally love it. No, no, it's true.

You know, I know when you think about it, it is kind of true because a lot of the frameworks just do browsers and this is more like end to end testing. And it's able to handle pretty much when you work at an enterprise like the company work at Stacey, it probably handles pretty much all your testing needs. So you don't have to try to glue all these other things, technologies together. It's already glued for you and working smoothly, it sounds like.

And the good part is that you can also implement your own library. If something is not covered and you have something like a really local need, you can just do that and implement a keyword and just integrate it easily.

That's a good point, because you work in, I think in R and D. Correct. So I assume you're working with technology. Sometimes that isn't very common. So is that something you do all the time?

You mean the creator library? Yes, for some things we do. For example, we have to handle external instruments, but we have to have global remote commands for this. So we have to create keyword keywords and functions for that so it's easier for us and we just integrate it in our test.

Love it. All right, so obviously this is a framework that's very useful. It's been around for 20 years and I think people should know more about it. And that's why I'm really excited about the Helsinki event. The 8th annual RoboCon so that maybe we dive into pretty much what you're going to be doing there, where your sessions are. So I think we'd start with you going, are you doing a session on the joys of Robot framework? What's your session going to be about?

Yes, Exactly. My first robocon was in 2024 and I was super excited about it and heard a few of these talks and I wanted to share my excitement with people and give back to the community, so to speak. And one of the things that really struck me is how much joy people were getting from the event, but also from just me using it as well. And I wanted to go through that process step by step and share why people get so excited by it. Like when you start out or when you start learning about it, or when you make it more context specific. And finally when you give back and start contributing, what are reasons why people would continue onwards with it and stick with it?

So maybe what's the main reason or the two main reasons without giving away your whole session?

I feel that like the core and at manlove would completely agree with this is the community, like the people that surround the ecosystem that Robo Framework has is just, it's such a friendly environment and it just is such an encouraging environment where you just keep finding help and they keep giving ideas. And I feel that that is the main core. Yeah, that's the core of the and the heart of my talk, honestly.

So Marcus, I think this could be the third or fourth year I'm hosting the online event and I know you've been involved pretty much in every single one. Which session going to be on and why does it seem like you come back for more every year?

Oh. So my session will be I will give a workshop together with Oscar Soka from the University of Uescolae. We will automate distributed robot framework workloads and orchestrate them within VPN workflow engine, which is like really cool thing to do. So like process visualization and so on and so forth. And we will orchestrate complex test workflows. Why I do this every year. Yes, I have been there at the first robot gone online. I remember that one very well with you. But my first one was in 2019 and until then I was like I was in this small five people team. I had this tool that I just knew for a year, robot framework and I thought it's like some rogue tool from the Internet and it was working very well and I was pondering my head about challenges and so on and we found Solutions and made some and utilized the tool. Then I went to the conference and then I realized, wow, it's not just a small tool, it's just not me and my four colleagues or something. It's like a worldwide thing. I'm not the only one. And everyone is like having similar challenges. Maybe they already solved it or they didn't solve it yet and they, they are excited to talk to me or they even solved the challenge in a better way and I can go home and say, listen to those people from the other company. They did it this way and now we have the context and now then the community is connecting and growing and that was mind blowing. I was thinking I would go to some tech conference and just listen to really sophisticated talks, but it was everyone is there on stage as an engineer who has an engineering background and did something with the tool and just presents their use case and the learnings and you go back home with a backpack full of new ideas and impulses and nudges. It's amazing. It's my highlight of the year.

Awesome. And Stacy, what are you going to be doing at robocon? You seem really fun, a lot of energy. Are you bringing that energy and awesomeness to the event?

Of course I'll be in the fun the after party. Come and find me there. Yes, you should also in the coffee breaks I'll be around. But after party, sure. I'll bring Uzo.

Do you have a session or are you part of the committee that's going on?

No, I'm just an enthusiast. I just love the energy that the robocorn gives me and I truly believe in the framework and its people. So I just want to participate and I just want to hop however I can.

Awesome. So are there any sessions or speakers that you see that you're like, oh, I can't wait to see this session or speaker in person.

All of them. I really. Because I can listen to old speakers which I know but I'm really excited for new speakers. I'm really excited about you, Gerv. Can't wait to see you online.

So someone with as much experience as you have robot framework, do you still learn something new when you go to these events?

Yes, of course. In we were a bit cut off because in here we didn't in Greece nobody used to use reward framework so we were a bit cut off of the community. So I bumped accidentally I bumped into the RoboCon 2019 so and I like, oh, I missed that. How can I attend? So I tried and I got a free ticket from Robocon and I joined 2020 and it was like, for me, I was like a kid going to Disney World. I'm like, oh, I'm super excited, but feel so small and significant. What all these people there know so much. They're experts. I don't know anything about that, but get to know, get to know people. I remember I met Renee, the first who spoke about Drive, and he replaced that, and I'm like, oh, I just did something like the. I want to talk to do that. So I talked him about the coffee break and he sat down with me and we just did some coding and it blew my mind. I'm like, wow, they're just people so enthusiast and they support this and I can ask questions, I can learn from them. So ever since I'm going there all the time, I don't miss it for the world because every time I learn something new or I meet a new person, I meet their experiences. We debug online or side by side, and that's it. I love it.

It's so. Yes, I can just underline this. So I also learn every time something new because I only know, like, the business where I'm working in and how I apply robot framework. But since it is so universal, you learn at events like robocon, you learn also the other use cases. For instance, Stavroula had a really nice use case where they have to provide the same functionality through different interfaces. So they have to have the same test case, but with different implementation of the test steps, but the test specification has to remain the same. And this is something that never crossed my mind, this challenge. Usually in my fields, it's like, have one interface, that has to be enough. You don't provide the same stuff over five interfaces. And then she was explaining in a talk how she and her team solved that. And that's also triggered. Maybe I don't have this use case yet, but how they solved it, that was a very neat thing that I take with me in my backpack. And then now I can take it out whenever I have a challenge to think I could use this idea. Yeah.

One of the talks that we had 2024 was, for example, how to adjust reporting to make it more accessible to management. It's not particularly a problem for me. I love more logs. Let's have all the logs and all the entries in it. But someone at the bank actually changed their logs to make it more accessible for management to read it. And that's a use case that you would usually not bump into. But they made Like a piece of functionality that people could access and showcase that to the rest of the robot framework community. Allowing other people to go like, ah, I can use robot framework. And people that wouldn't use it still would understand what comes out of it. Which I think is like an excellent way of learning new things on how to use it.

Absolutely. So I know on the online event, I assume they do this on site is the last day is dedicated to. I forget what they call it. It's like a hands on session where you can almost do like group coding or group mentoring I think. Or like you. Is that Marcus, you're shaking your head. Is that. Am I. Do you know what that's called or what am I talking about?

Yeah, yes, yes, yes. So in the on site event this is called the community day and this year it happened. It's the first day of the conference. So we have the conference on Thursday, Friday on Wednesday are the workshops and on Tuesday is the community day. So everyone who's already in town goes there and either it's like an open space, you bring your topic, you ask questions, maybe you find people who have the same challenges as you are and then you debate or even code a solution or you even have like a proof of concept of a new library of a new approach or something. And then you find people who are interested and then you sit together and do some live coding and in the end you present it. And this time there will be on Friday afternoon the slot before the last. I think there will be lightning talks. So if you have created something cool and would like to grow your audience.

On a topic that you have developed during the community day, you can pitch it there in five or 10 minutes. I don't know how long the lightning talks are, but you can pitch it there and get immediate feedback. And if you are afraid of going on stage and pitching something, I think robocon is the best place to learn or to try out being on stage because there are people like you. Even when you stumble or if you say a wrong word and or you forget a word or you breathe really fast or something because you're nervous, everyone there feels with you and you always get positive feedback. There have been talks where I thought oh, this wasn't really necessary. But when I talk with people afterwards with the audience, there was always every talk had like their fan group. So there's always only positive feedback. And it's a really great place to learn. Being on stage. If you have stage fright, go to robocon. That's the best medicine.

The Encamp first day for or as they call it, is very community driven and is personally one of the highlights for me because it's very informal and people actually vote with their feet. If you are no longer interested in a subject, you can just walk to a different one. It's very open and therefore allows for a lot of creativity and a lot of feedback around you. And you always get surprised with the topics that people raise and learn a lot from it as well. It's a much more accessible format than when you do just a presentation for a group of over 300 people.

Love it. And it sounds like Stacy, based on your experience, like you said, you were there, one of them, and you talked to Renee, you met him, seemed like people really, are they open to being approached and like helping people out. I'm an introvert, so I'd be terrified. But it sounds like that's not the experience. Maybe that it's like at robocon.

Yes. In the beginning you think they're like, oh, they're like the rock stars of a band. So like, oh, you know, I have to be really careful of what say. But then you turn up, hey, they're just like coders, like, you know, test engineers. That's like you. So you come and you say, hey, can I ask you about something? He said, yeah, sure, of course. So. And everybody's so willing to help you out and also to share their experiences to try to solve your problem. And I think that's the amazing thing about it. That's the most important thing, that you find other people who might have the same problems, who have a solution, who have tried other solutions, and they can guide you through that. And you can totally ask anybody for help. Anybody. Just like people walking by in the coffee break, hey, can I ask you. Yes, you can ask it. No problem.

We have no bouncers at this event, as far as I'm aware, anyway.

Yeah. So they are really no rock stars. But if you are from outside and you go there for the first time, of course you have this respect approaching these people. I remember that when I went to my first robocon, we had a pull request provided earlier that year. And Tatu Alto was like the king of the Selenium Library. Back in that day, he had discussed the pull and finally had approved it. And then the after party, I happened to sit next to him, we both drinking beer. And I was really nervous because he was like, Mr. Selenium Library. And then I talked with him about the pull request and mentioned it. And he said, oh, yeah, I Remember that pull request? And then we had a really nice conversation and I realized during the conversation he's just like me. I mean he does something really passionate about but he's just a normal guy and you can be really casual with him.

I think that that's also one of the bigger advantages of robocon is that you meet the people that are behind the GitHub handle. So when you're raising issues it's always a bit scary like am I going to get my head chewed up or not? And then it turns out they're very nice online and then as you meet them online you still like you have still that distance. But once you then meet the people on site in face to face in person, it just is a similar experience and it's just wonderful. I can recommend it for anyone.

All right, all right. So one thing about if someone's never been to Helsinki, can you give me one thing of why they definitely want to go to the on site event Happening? Go to RoboCon IE to get your ticket or the on site version And Helsinki, Stacey, what's it, is it any different from Athens? Like what makes you think oh, Helsinki, I can't wait for this? One thing is going to be off the hook because it's in Helsinki.

For me the most important thing is that I will actually meet the people and I will have to interact. And each time you meet a person it's totally different. You have a different magic about it. There's a moment you share, there's a bond you can, you're not afraid to ask something because it's not written and it won't stay online all the time, you know forever and haunt you all the time because you ask the stupid questions. Because there you see, there's no stupid questions. You're not afraid, you just say hey, maybe could be stupid but can I ask you something? And apart from that for me is Helsinki. I love Helsinki. I used to study as an exchange pro student and for me I just love being there, being the architecture, townhouse, the city, snow, cold of course, I love cold and I can't wait to see you there.

Yes. So adding to that maybe being away. So the robocon online is also a good experience but you still can like easier hide behind your screen and not intact. And here you will bump into someone at the buffet or something at lunch or something and exchange something or someone makes a comment about your spec that you're wearing so then you immediately have a connection. And probably most important is work cannot interrupt your visit. There so you don't have your teams open on the side of your screen and they interrupting the talk that you're streaming and you cannot say, ah, you know what, I just work now for the next half an hour and I will look the recording afterwards. And we all know this happens like in one of 10 cases that you watch the recording afterwards.

Yeah, for me it's definitely to just get inspired with a group of people that are there to just gain more insights, to just have that idea of like, oh, this is how solutions can be implemented as well and to just talk about work without actually being like, I don't know, considered weird.

So you don't just go to the conference. It's like a magnifier. If you go to the online event, of course you're together with the other people all the time, but it's different if you are together with the people all the time on site. So everyone's like in this 2, 3, 4 days process of thinking about their work challenges, getting really excited, maybe building something, maybe even presenting their results in the enlightening clock. In the end, everyone is there for a visit. So everyone has to go somewhere for dinner, has to go somewhere for lunch or something. So you also connect afterwards. So after this week, usually I really need like two or three days of holiday because I was under excitement for such a long time. Yes, it was exciting, but it was also about work and I need some time to cool down afterwards because it was just so much adrenaline and excitement for such a long time.

And I highly recommend everyone check out the on site experience in Helsinki using the link down below. Thanks again for your automation awesomeness. The links to everything of value we covered in this episode, head on over to testguild.com a529 and if the show has helped you in any way, why not rate it and review it in itunes? Reviews really help in the rankings of the show and I read each and every one of them. So that's it for this episode of the Test Guild Automation podcast, Joe. And my mission is to help you succeed with creating end to end full stack automation awesomeness. As always, test everything and keep the good. Cheers. Hey, thank you for tuning in. It's incredible to connect with close to 400,000 followers across all our platforms and over 40,000 email subscribers who are at the forefront of automation testing and DevOps. If you haven't yet, join our vibrant community community@testguild.com where you become part of our elite circle driving innovation in software testing and automation. And if you're a tool provider or have a service looking to empower our guild with solutions that elevate skills and tackle real world challenges. We're excited to collaborate. Visit test guild.info to explore how we can create transformative experiences. Together. Let's push the boundaries of what we can achieve. O the Testill Automation Testing Podcast with lutes and lyres, the bards began their song A tune of knowledge, a melody of code through the air it spread like wildfire through the land, Guiding testers, showing the secrets to behold.