Deepa Purushothaman: Author of The First, the Few, the Only: How Women of Color Can Redefine Power in Corporate America

Here's something remarkable and not in a good way. Disengaged employees cost US companies almost $1.9 trillion a year. That's a lot of zeros. Why? Because when teams lack the right skills, productivity declines, turnover increases, and strategies stagnate. But it doesn't have to be that way. At Project Management Institute, home of the PMP and globally recognized certifications, your people can learn to collaborate, deliver on time, and actually get things the cost of not upskilling way higher than the investment Project Management Institute. Find the answers@pmi.org Guy Kawasaki here.

I want to recommend a podcast. It's called Female Startup Club. It's hosted by Dune Roisin and is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network. If you're looking for a new podcast, Startup Club shares tips, tactics and strategies from some of the world's most successful female founders, entrepreneurs and women in business. It covers topics like who should be your first hire and how to build a great community. Listen to Female Startup Club wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Guy Kawasaki. I'm on a mission to make you remarkable. I Today's remarkable guest is Deepa Perseverman. She is a warrior, author, speaker, and co founder of Information. Information is a community created by women of color for women of color. Its purpose is to reimagine traditional power structures to not just help more women of color get their seat at the table, but to change the way the table is formed. Prior to this, Deepa spent more than 20 years at Deloitte and was the first Indian American woman and one of the youngest people ever to make partner. She is also a women and Public policy program leader in practice at the Harvard Kennedy School and an Aspen Fellow. Deepa has degrees from Wellesley College, the Harvard Kennedy School, and the London School of Economics. Her new book, the first the Few the How Women of Color Redefine Power in Corporate America should be read by every leader who wants to remain relevant. I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is remarkable people. And now, here is the remarkable Deepa Pershofferman. First of all, please can you say your name?

Yep, it's Deepa Persiaman.

Wow, that is a mouthful.

It is a mouthful. Thirteen letters. So it's Per Shaf Amin.

How long does it take to make an airplane or hotel reservation?

Like it takes a long time.

You probably don't have custom license plates with your last name on your car.

I do not. I do not. It's funny, when I got married, I got married. Later in life, I didn't change my Name. This is my maiden name because my husband's name wasn't much better. So, yes.

I was just wondering. Kawasaki is hard enough. Most people think I'm Polish. But your name, wow.

It was not easy. I was the last, last kid in kindergarten to get my star for being able to spell my name.

For sure, just being able to spell your name should mean you win the spelling bee, but.

Yes, it should. It should.

If a man with identical qualifications, using the same email server configuration, who on his watch had the same amount of people killed while he was Secretary of State in an attack on an embassy, ran against Trump in 2016, would that man have won?

Yes, because I believe part of the challenge that was in that election was that Hillary was a woman and that we don't see leadership as women. We struggle wrapping our head around that the President of the United States could be a woman. And so I think there were so many things displayed in that election that. That speak to the themes that I really want to talk about. That leadership needs to look different, that qualifications and what is a leader need to be redefined. So, yes, I do believe that that would have played out very differently if Hillary wasn't a woman running for president.

Will the hypothetical in quotes Walter. Will he know he's Walter when he reads your book?

That's a great question. I want to believe he will. I definitely changed his name, but those are not enough facts of the story that I think he should know who he is. But part of being a Walter is not necessarily knowing you're a Walter and kind of being a little bit oblivious to the situation. So to be honest with you, I'm not sure.

And what is he going to think when he figured, let's give him benefit of the doubt, that he's aware enough to figure out he is the Walter? What's he going to think?

I think times have changed, right. That was a few years ago. And I want to believe that the Walters of the world have kind of awoken to the challenges around that. I think I'll probably get an apology. You know, Guy, what's so interesting to me in the work that I do and even just the stories I've told prior to this book is I've had a lot of people from my past reach out and apologize to me. A lot of white men. And so unexpectedly. And so I want to believe maybe he'll reach out and have something to say about it and we can have a discussion about it. I don't know that he'll know how deeply that wounded me. In the moment, I think that'll be the surprise, surprise, not the common. Because that wasn't the first or the only thing he's ever said, but I think how deeply that wounded me and the fact that I still carry that will surprise him.

Right about now, tens of thousands of people are wondering, what the hell are they talking about? Who is Walter? So maybe you could just give the gist of that story. It's a great story that you started with.

Yes. So I went to graduate school with Walter, and Walter and I made partner in our respective firms around the same time. And I tell the story how I'm celebrating with Walter at a bar in New York, and we're toasting, and I'm explaining how, you know, although I made partner, I'm really. And I made partner in a large global firm. I was the first Indian woman to do so. There's a lot of. A lot of firsts that come with that to just explain kind of the pressure I was feeling. And I said to Walter, I am really nervous about what comes next for me and not messing it up. And all eyes are on me. And Walter, without missing a beat, turned to me and said, well, you're a twofer. You know, you have nothing to worry about. And I'm a white man. I'm going to have a lot to worry about. People like me have things to prove you're going to skate by. I'm paraphrasing the words in the book. And it was shocking to me because he was a good friend, probably my best friend at that point. And it really hit me to my core. And so that's the Walter story is that even in situations where someone is a friend, it can be a really challenging situation.

I was just curious because that was a risky story to tell at the start of your book. I loved it.

Yeah. I think it's necessary, though, and I think you're right. I mean, but a lot of the data shows that a lot of white men, especially in corporate America, are struggling with the idea that they're losing seats. Right. That folks like you and I, as we get seats, they're losing. And there's actually research that show that justifies that or that backs that up, that says that Eny did a. Did a study and asked white men how are they feeling? And they said they're afraid that they're losing as a result of a lot of the DE&I initiatives. And so I think it's something similar to your Trump question, something that we have to talk about. Right. That there is this feeling of winners and losers. And unless we change that idea that there is a pie that we're all fighting for, I think we're going to continue with that, with that challenge.

But call me idealistic, but wouldn't you think that if you realize that the competition is getting fiercer, you would up your game as opposed to try to change the rules of the game? What am I missing here?

I think people try to do both. Right. Part of what the book is about is the structure has been created in such a way. And I think until recently, we haven't had permission to talk about the structure and how it was created and who it was created for and how it works. And so I think where possible, people who sit in power are going to try to change the game whenever they can. That's part of how the system has worked for a very long time. And people like me are now asking, is that fair? Is that right? And how do we actually create a system and a process and a culture that works for everybody?

Give us the gist of what it's like to be a woman of color in corporate America.

Yes, the gist is it's hard. The gist is there is a lot of trauma that's happening. There is a lot that has been unsaid. And so it's 10 chapters talking about what the experience is like. And I interviewed over 500 women of color, and what came up quite often is that there is a lot of extra work that women of color are asked to do around culture, building around mentoring, bring others around things as a result of being a first few and only that aren't compensated. There is a lot of pressure, as you know, the Walter story talks about, because all eyes are on us. There's so few of us, especially at senior levels, that anything we do, positive or negative, creates quite a level of visibility and a level of pressure. We don't see role models that look like us, and there's so few of us that there's such a need to code switch and to edit how we are and how we show up. We don't usually see leaders that look like us. And so unless you have a very. A good way of processing the imposter syndrome and all the other things that come up for us as we navigate spaces that are. That don't look like us and weren't made for us, made by us, maybe don't even want us there, it's a real challenge. So what I'm trying to lay out is not that we can't make it not that we're not powerful, not that we don't have skills to bear that would actually be helpful to corporate America, but that this idea that it's a meritocracy and that the system shows up the same for you and I is actually a flawed way of thinking. And we had to be really open that there is an extra burden and a significant burden that women of color bear as they navigate spaces that were not made for them.

What specifically are examples of? It's not a meritocracy, even though it appears to be a meritocracy or you think it's a meritocracy.

So I think the difference, the example that I like is, and it's in the first chapter of the book is I sat down with Renee Myers, who's the VP of Netflix of inclusion, and we were talking about airplane design. And we were having this. She's a black woman, we were talking about inclusion in corporate America. And she, you know, brought up this idea of airplane design and how, you know, as a mom, when she gets on the plane, she struggles with the idea that you put your luggage above your head because she doesn't necessarily want it to fall on her, her children. And so it wasn't designed for moms in mind. And I shared with her, I'm five one and I traveled sometimes three cities a week, right? So for me, airplanes are really were a really big part of my life and my old world. And I'm 5:1, so the struggle of getting my suitcase above my head when I first get on an airplane is real. Like, I spend a good 15 minutes before I get on the plane worrying about that, and it's a very stressful experience. And then I look at the white man sitting next to me in the airplane, who's maybe 5, 10 or taller, doesn't even think about that, isn't necessarily even thinking about the things that Renee thinks about. And so the idea that we weren't consulted, we weren't there as part of airplane design was being thought of is this same kind of analogy that I take to the corporate space. Corporate culture, corporate systems didn't have me in mind when they were created. And so as a result, they weren't made for me and don't work for me. But I also share a lot of the microaggressions and racism. I can't tell you how many times a day as I would navigate my workday, I would be dismissed as the partner in charge or the leader in charge, because people would look at me and think I was young Or I was little or I wasn't senior enough to actually have those titles. And although I've learned ways of navigating around that, it really undermines you. And so for me it's a bigger question of how do we define leadership and what do we think leadership looks like and how do people, you know, candidly guy like how do people like you and I, when we walk into spaces, how do we change that sort of definition and start to think about that differently?

After the interview, I thought of something I should have asked. So this phone call happened the next day.

Hi there Deepa, how are you?

I'm fine, thank you. So I thought of something I should have asked you but I wasn't smart enough to ask you in real time.

No problem. I was thinking of the same thing. I was running through questions and answers yesterday as I was trying to fall asleep.

Must have been a slow night. So when you told the story about you're five foot one woman, you're thinking about how to put the luggage in the rack and that causes you great angst and all that and that's an example of a systemic problem where women weren't involved in design of the plane.

Correct.

Right.

So I should have immediately asked you this question. I'm really curious now. I thought about that last night which is okay if you're a 5 foot 10 man and you see a 5 foot 1 woman trying to get stuff into the luggage compartment.

Yes.

Are you supposed to help her? Are you supposed to say, God, I don't want to insult her by saying, oh, you're a short woman, I'm going to help you honey. What should I do?

Yes. It's a great question and I love it. I can't speak for all women or women of color or shorter women but for me when someone offers for the most part I graciously and thankfully say yes, I would love the. Love the help. It usually by the way though guy comes as it's hoisted over my head and just about to go in. It doesn't usually come before so just so you know. And at that point I'm kind of committed. So yes, I will take whatever help I can get. I appreciate the help. And so maybe it's more how the help is offered. Right. It's not, it's not in a savior rescue sort of context and it's in a genuine I see you struggling. So this is not a hard thing for me to help you do.

There may be men who are just doubling over thinking I don't want to insult her by offering her help because she's going to take this personally.

It's hard, guy. Like, it's the same thing with opening the door, right? Like, there's such mixed feelings on opening the door. At that point when it's over, my head hoisted. I'm usually at the point where I'm sweating, I'm turning red because I'm really, you know, like. So there's a whole process going on for me. So I will take the help, but the next woman next to me may not be. And it. It may also depend on the energy that the man approaches the situation with. Right? Like that savior complex versus I genuinely just want to help.

Okay?

And so that's all I wanted to ask you, but now.

So your. Your listeners will have to let me know if they get flack for offering and it, you know, backfires.

Okay, so now I'm going to ask you one more. One more question that we may or may not use. So. And tell me to just step back. This is inappropriate. I saw the video, and clearly you didn't just wake up. I mean, you. You. You were made up. You were all together. You weren't. You weren't just waking up, right?

No, no, I was not just waking up. Yeah.

So do you feel that as a woman, you have to, like, make yourself up to be on a zoom call, whereas a man doesn't? Is that one more cultural, systemic, zeitgeist kind of problem?

It's a great question. I would tell you. And so I'm going to give you a longer answer than you asked for, because I've had this conversation with women, so not just women of color. With women, there is data that shows more women are actually getting plastic surgery and investing in things related to their face than ever before, because we're staring back at it all day. So I think for me and the women I speak with, it's less of an issue of, like, what you think I look like, and it's more of an issue of, like, I'm looking at myself for the first time at eight hours of stress, and I'm noticing how old I look or I'm, you know, it's a. There's like, even more imposter syndrome incompetence issues as a result of zoom in the last couple of years for women, that is actually absolutely proven. I've had many conversations about that. As far as the pressure, I do it some days, I don't others. The bigger question is interesting is my hair is curly and I straighten it a lot. I used to straighten it all the time for corporate America. And I'll share. If you look at the COVID of the book, there were versions of the woman in front with curly hair and there were versions of the woman in front with straight hair. And there was such a difference of opinion and what people thought looked professional. And I know this is very related to black women's hair. And a lot of the conversations are happening in the zeitgeist right around what is appropriate around hair. But I faced it myself and the COVID of the book and what looks appropriate. So it's, it's not exactly the answer to your question, but it's very tied. And it was a big question of what should go on the COVID Curly hair. Straight hair. And I was insistent on the curly hair because we need to change our definition definitions of what professionalism looks like. But it was interesting. A lot of debate.

And where do you come down in this debate? Not, not of the straighter curly hair. But do you feel women have to be all made up?

I think there's pressure to do that.

Absolutely.

And I, I think it's really on what makes you, you know, what makes you feel better. That's where I end up on this issue. Like, if it makes me feel more confident, if it makes me feel better, if I'm not going to stare at what I look like and wonder why I look so tired, then I do it. But I, I've let go of needing to do it for other people. So that's kind of where the power redefinition comes in.

Okay.

It means extra time.

I would tell you.

Yes.

Okay.

And there are days where I just avoid the camera, the on camera version and I'll just talk to people on the phone old school because I just don't feel like changing out of the pajamas.

Well, I want you to know that although I didn't do it yesterday, I put it on foundation before I go online.

Okay.

Trade secrets.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Especially if I've been surfing and my face is all sunburned. So.

Yeah, just FYI, the same thing.

I, I love that. Thank you for sharing. I think, I think as long as my other quick answer, guys, as long as it's half an hour or less for me to get ready, I'm. I'm okay.

If it's like longer than that, then.

I'm not doing it. That's kind of where I'm also got to.

Okay. Now, you don't mind me putting all of this on, right?

No, it's fine.

That's it.

All right.

All right.

Thank You.

Thank you. Do you think the law that requires women directors in California is going to help the situation?

I think it will help the situation in some ways. The early data suggests it's helping white women, so it's not necessarily helping women of color. So I think we have to parse out who we're trying to help. But I also, to be honest with you, think this is the whole question of quotas in some ways. Right. And are quotas a good idea or a bad idea? And I've. I've kind of evolved my thinking on it. I. Years ago, if you had asked me that question, I would have fought it. Cause I wanted nothing to do with quotas. Because you end up with that Walter Twofer comment like, you just got the seat because you are a woman or a woman of color or whatever the quota is. I think I've gotten to the point that workplaces aren't working. And so we have to do some unnatural things or some, you know, additive things to really change them. And so I worry less now, having spent a lot of time in this work about how we get the women in the seats and the women of color in the seats. I just want them in the seats. But I also think the bigger question is, once they're in the seats, are they able to be in their full voice? Are they able to make change? Are they able to actually be supported? Because just getting to the seat, I think, is part of the challenge we have. We've spent so much time and energy talking about getting to the seat. But if they can actually be successful or change or bring up new ideas once they're in the seat, then is it really changing anything? And that also needs to be part of the discussion.

And what is your advice for getting over the imposter syndrome?

My advice is that we have to rewrite those messages. So I have two chapters in the book around shedding and carrying this idea that we have to shed messages that don't serve us and kind of carry forth messages that do. But it's really hard internal work. It's really sitting down with yourself. And when you get into difficult situations, what I have found is there are usually a dozen messages that you've been taught from childhood. You're not enough, you're not good enough. You're smart enough. Those messages. And it's really starting to rewrite those. And a lot of. For a lot of women, the messages come around. Imposter syndrome come from childhood, come from the experiences we've had in school or with our families or just in the media of not seeing ourselves. And so we have to get. Get more focused on how we rewrite those narratives. But it's hard. I would say. The other thing that I have found is I now have a community of women that I lean on that I didn't have when I was in corporate America. And so finding others and realizing that my experience is not unique to me, that almost, you know, unanimously, the women of color I speak with have so many of these shared experiences is really freeing. And so for me, part of my work is realizing the structure is created in a certain way. There are certain behaviors I can change, but some of that is not mine to take on. Some of that is about what other people also believe. And so I can only take on my part and change my part. And so for me, that has freed me quite a bit. But it's taken me decades to get to this point place.

You. You state in the book that there is enormous pressure to, quote, be someone else.

Yeah.

So what are the characteristics of this theoretical someone else?

Yeah, there's someone else that I'm talking about is the white male leader that came before me for decades. So this idea that they are assertive, they are aggressive, they are self assured, they carry themselves in a certain way, and that maybe they don't lead with things like empathy or gut feeling, that there are these other characterist that are also important in leadership and that we need to kind of open the aperture of how we think about leadership. That's really what I'm talking about. I do this exercise when I speak at events, when it used to be in person and now it's over. Zoom. And I say, think of a leader. What do you think of when you think of a leader? And you'd be surprised, I mean, maybe not surprised, but everyone in the audience thinks of a white male executive or a white male politician. They don't think of people that look like me. And that's part of what we have to change. And if we don't change that, what's happening is most of us are unconsciously and consciously being taught to emulate that model and the behaviors and what even power looks like in that model. And that's what I'm really talking about changing.

But we seem to be. I don't know if we're in a downward spiral, but we're certainly not in an upward spiral without these heroes and role models and your parents telling you to be a certain way. How do you break out of that, that rut?

I think for a lot of the women that I've met and even the people that I've met, Some of it comes down to you. You face a life experience or something doesn't happen in your. In your favor. Right. So for a lot of the women of color, something has happened where the system hasn't shown up for them, or they face some issue of racism, or they didn't get a promotion that they were clearly in the running for. And so those situations really make them question what just happened to me and ask them bigger questions around the structure and the process. I think that's a lot of it, is that once you encounter something that doesn't feel right and you've done all this work to get to this place, and I spoke to a lot of senior women. That was really the challenge that they really realized that just working harder wasn't going to do it for them and that they had to really pick and choose something else. So it's usually some sort of a life event, I think, that pushes you in this sort of way. But I'd also say, I think a lot of people are questioning the space that work takes in their life right now. As a result of COVID and everything that's happened for the last couple of years, you see a very different conversation about how people want to work and where they want to work. And although my book is written for women of color, I'm asking bigger questions around, you know, the space that work takes in our life and how we work and how we create spaces that actually work for everybody. So, again, although that is what I've written about, I think this. This book in a lot of ways applies to some of the experiences. Even my people in my peer group who met men in my peer group who have young children who just have really struggled with, how do I actually spend time raising my children? How do I spend time at home? Because what's being demanded me at work is just grown to such an extent, it's hard to manage.

You know, if you look back, it seems like this entitlement syndrome is just locked and loaded. How do you think it came to be like that?

It's.

It.

Maybe I'm just naive or idealistic, but it seems to me that business is so competitive, and one of the major competitive advantages is people. Why would you cut your genetic pool in half? Why would you only focus on men? It makes no sense to me. What am I missing? How did. How did this entitlement syndrome come to be?

I feel like almost two or three questions in that guy. Like, one is entitlement in itself, like, where does that come from? And candidly, that comes from a history of white patriarchy. Right. I mean, we can talk about that and how the systems were built and what underpins capitalism. So that's one set of conversations. But I think the other question you're asking is, aren't workplaces leaving something on the table in the choices that they're making? And yes, that's the point. I think part of what's happened is we are continuing to remake models of leadership based on what has come before without really understanding that it's not just what's come before, but we've actually widened who's actually in the workplace. And as a result, we have to open up that definition of leadership in a different way. And so I think it's kind of a yes. And I mean, part of what has come up out of the research is that women of color have all of these other experiences, what I call lived experiences, that aren't valued when they're recruited or when they advance in the workplace. And those lived experiences of navigating, literally, colleges, universities, earlier work experiences where they weren't valued or they weren't really seen and having to make a voice for themselves have made them really valuable workers. And yet that voice is muted. And so part of. I think the message is not just entitlement, it's that there are superpowers. I like that word for women of color that we aren't really focused on because we tend to look at the same things that have come before, for innovation and for definitions versus kind of opening up the definitions. And I think that's where we are. And if this moment doesn't cause that, with COVID and all the other pressures we're facing and all the entrenched global issues that we're facing, when is that going to change ever?

Is one solution or one path just to wait the bastards out and wait for this generation of white men to die?

No, I don't think so. Because if you look at the stats, that's going to take us to 2050 or 2060 or later in a lot of ways, because companies have looked at that information. And so unless we're willing to wait, you know, that long, I don't think so. And by the way, I don't think the planet can wait that long. I think we need more voices sitting in seats because of where we sit as a planet right now. So, no, I don't think so. And I also think part of the challenge is it's. And this is like the difference Right. It's also the structure. So we're talking a lot about the people sitting in the seats. But I also think we need to change the structure. And so if we don't get more women and more diversity into those seats themselves, you can't actually change the beliefs and the culture and the processes even. Right. I mean, part of what is most fascinating to me, one of the most fascinating things in the research, was how much women of color are penalized when they speak their truth, how much the processes don't support them. Even though we say, in this day and age, after George Floyd's murder, we want to talk about racism work, we want to make systems open and processes open. So many of the women of color were penalized for telling their truth. So it's not just changing the people. We have to change the processes and the structures, too. And so we. I don't want to wait, because then we're just going to be changing those processes and structures in 20 or 30 years. And that feels like too long to me.

You discussed a technique called shedding. You mentioned it earlier in this interview, but I would like you to take a deep dive into this. What is shedding? How do you do it?

Shedding is really just unprogramming. It's really this idea that we are indoctrinated with a lot of beliefs. Right? And so I explained before that idea that I was not that I'm not good enough or this idea of what success is for me, you know, And I'll use my own example. I grew up in an immigrant family. My parents came from India. They worked really hard to get what they got. And so there was this. There was this idea that success was very tied to working hard. And so my superpower for very long, I believed, was I could outwork anybody. I could work 20 hours a day. I could work three days in a row and not necessarily need to sleep or eat. Like, I was highly productive. And part of my work in shedding was realizing that that shedding actually didn't serve me. I ended up getting really sick from overworking and the stress related to that. And so shedding for me was sitting down and realizing those ideas and those practices and those values and don't work for me anymore. And so how do I reprogram them and rewrite them in a different way? That work is really about getting quiet with yourself. It's really about looking at your life and saying what is working for you and what is not, and how do you change that? I tell a story of a woman in the book who was diagnosed with breast cancer and similar to mine, she was an overworker. And part of what she ended up having to do was really take stock of her life and realize that she needed to, to take care of her herself and her health. And that was part of success and that was part of leadership and part of what she should also be striving for. And kind of rewriting, shedding the belief that again, just getting to the top was enough. Part of her process was really rewriting that the idea of health and happiness and wellness was bigger than that.

Up next on Remarkable People.

That's not how the world works. That's not how people work. We were born with these things. So I think that's also really important. Guy Like I'm not saying a person is bad or good based on this. I'm saying these are all things we are taught and we can unlearn. And so to say you don't see color dismisses any responsibility I think you have in understanding what the true situation is and the work that you have to do. I've never met a person who hasn't made a mistake in this space. Right. Even the best of us, I make mistakes in this space.

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Yep. I don't think everyone's the same and I think some of this goes back to the Trump question we started with. Right. I think there are people in different camps, and I think we have to understand that and we have to talk about that. What has surprised me in the, in the book is just in the process of releasing into the world is how many allies and white male leaders have shown up and asked me questions and asked to understand. I wrote the book for women of color. Selfishly, I wanted the book I never had when I was navigating corporate America. So it's very much written in a voice for women of color. I write it to women of color. I don't, you know, explain my definitions. There's some shorthand in the book, and it's actually white male leaders that are saying, I had no idea and help me understand. So I. I would say, no, they're not all the same. But I also think that it's hard when a system benefits you or when there are certain things that work in your favor that you don't even appreciate or you can't even acknowledge to keep it in the way it is. So I think there's one camp that is very aware of what they're doing and they want to keep it that way. I think there's one camp that may be not so aware, and then there's one camp that wants to make change. And there's a spectrum across all of those things.

Let's suppose that you are a young woman and you are highly qualified, so you're sought after and you can pick from various companies to work for. From the outside looking in. Are there specific tells that would indicate this corporate culture structure Zeitgeist is just not going to work. I need to stay out of this. What are the warning signs?

I think it's looking at the senior leadership as a start. I think it's looking at the three layers below that, because candidly, most senior leadership is not diverse enough that it would make me go to a company at this point. But I would want to look three levels below and see what's happening. I would be also looking at folks at my level and even below. And are there stories. I would be going to places like Glassdoor where you can read what's going on and understand culturally, are women getting promoted or women of color having challenges? I would look to see if there are any suits or any public cases where there are challenges. I mean, it's in a way, like, what is happening, I think, is women of color doing more due diligence. I think that more than ever, to your point, women of color Call me every week because of the seat that I'm sitting in. With my organization, I help women of color, you know, find safe space and meet each other at a very senior level. And so I have a lot of them calling me saying that they're getting calls from recruiters and how do they sort through these options that they have in a way that they've never had calls before. And what I tell them is that they have to do their due diligence to really see our companies doing actually what they say that they want to do. And it's not just about getting hired, it's about what happens after they get hired. So I think it's a little bit of looking up and looking down in here and honestly reaching out to women of color and reaching out to other people within the organization and saying, what are you feeling? What are you seeing? Can you share with me? Is this a great place to navigate?

And internal employees will really answer that.

Yes. So what I have found is that we are willing to help each other if you ask. So women of color, I can just go to LinkedIn and kind of find four or five, you know, women in an organization. If I reach out and say I'm considering coming, can we have a chat? Yes.

Yes.

It's changed and I think more employees are doing that than ever before. Yes. I probably wouldn't call the C level and ask that question because they're probably going to tell you it's all wonderful. But if you call women at a different level and have a very off the record conversation like I'm considering between two options, here's what I'm being asked for. We're helping each other in a way I've never seen before.

Again, call me naive, but one of the points that surprised me in the book was your observation that HR is not necessarily on your side, that HR is in the business of making the company successful, not making you successful.

Yes.

So can you, can you go into that?

That's surprising.

Most people think, oh, HR is on the side of the employee.

Yes. That to me was not shocking, I guess, because I spent a lot of time. I've spent time in so many different companies as a consultant.

Yeah.

A lot of HR processes and a lot of HR organizations are set up to legally protect the company. So when you actually formally file a complaint about racism or sexism or harassment, they're obliged to follow certain protocols to take that to fruition. And so what we have found, or what I have found just in the last year and a half around race is that most companies, one, are not set up to handle race, so they don't have the right people in the seats and they don't have. They're literally trying to figure out the protocols right now. But secondly, it's so bad to admit that there's race racism going on that when women come forth and share their complaints, there's a lot more pressure to, can you prove it? Tell us what really happened. And if you fast forward six months to a year, most of the women who end up filing complaints end up leaving as a result of companies not showing up for them. Because there's so much fear around what would happen if a company or a person or a senior executive in a company was labeled racist. So it's a real issue. And I think it's something I encourage women of color to understand because a lot of people will tell them, a racist incident just happened, someone just said something inappropriate. Go to HR and I tell women of color, you have to really understand who your HR is before you do that. Not all HR groups are set up the same, with the same interests and the same in the same processes or the same intent. Maybe that's the right word.

What if you're working inside an organization where making a claim or a complaint, much less filing a lawsuit for sexual harassment or racial, you know, prejudice is career ending or at least career limiting. What are you supposed to do? Leave.

That's what most women of color are doing. I believe it's chapter six in the book. I talk about almost a dozen, and I'm. I'm saying VP level and above. So C suite women who I talked to, who as a result of an incident happening, they spoke up. They felt like they were fully empowered to speak up given their level and their tenure, they spoke up and the company turned on them. And that is quite a frequent occurrence. Like, again, there is that. That whole conform pressure, that whole this is our company too, and we don't behave like that. So I think there's a little bit of denial happening and it's real. So, yes, a lot of women of color at that point leave and they go do something else.

Many companies have this VP of inclusion or some such similar title. So is this window dressing? Is it abdication to one person saying, okay, that person's handling. It's like having a chief Innovation officer, that person is in charge of innovation. We don't have to worry about it anymore. So this person is in charge of inclusion. We don't have to worry about it anymore. So what's your take on VPs of inclusion.

I encourage women to only take those roles. The women who call me to take those roles, if they're set up in the right ways. So the right budget, the right number of staff, they report to the CEO. There's a whole bunch of other things that have to happen. And I'll be honest, like I don't love the title itself because to your point, it can in certain companies advocate responsibility just to that one person when it should be an entire company responsibility. I believe inclusion and all of that work starts at the C suite, but it happens in day to day interactions at a manager level. That's really where most employees feel whether they belong or not is at that manager level. And so I think sometimes in some companies having one person sit in that seat allows them to feel like the issues, the programs, all of it's being taken care of without doing the work. I wouldn't get rid of the role, but I don't think it alone is enough. And I. There's a line in the book that's one of my favorite where I talk to an example executive and he said, I think those roles are propaganda. And I think in some companies that's absolutely true. And we have to be honest about that.

How do you tell when it's propaganda versus reality?

I think it's all those things I talked about to do they report to the CEO. How often do they have direct channel? It's the budget, it's the staff. It's actually what the company is doing on all the other days of the year other than just that one inclusion day that they claim. Or it's really what's felt and seen. And again, part of what I think this is all getting at is that you have to talk to the employees to understand that. And I think more than ever we're in a moment where employees are being honest and we're walking with our feet if it doesn't make sense in a very different way.

So we discuss the issues with meritocracy. How about we discuss the issues with the theory of so called color blindness?

Yes. So for years I would navigate spaces where leaders at all these companies I worked at would say, well, one day we'll have a colorblind society or I don't see color. Right. It's not a thing that I see. And it would always make my stomach turn, like it just never sat right with me. And I think now I can better articulate one. I think that denies my experience as a woman of color where I'm saying I'm having all these issues as a result of how people see me. And you're negating that by saying you don't see color or that doesn't exist. I think that's a problem. I think secondly, that's not how the world works. That's not how people work. We were born with these things. So I think that's also really important. Guy. Like, I'm not saying a person is bad or good based on this. I'm saying these are all things we are taught and we can unlearn. And so to say you don't see color dismisses any responsibility I think you have in understanding what the true situation is and the work that you have to do. I've never met a person who hasn't made a mistake in this space. Right? Even the best of us, I make mistakes in this space. And so I think we're all learning. And so to say I don't see color or I'm colorblind is really denying the reality of what actually happens in the world. World.

If a leader were to say.

All.

I care about is competence and let's say he's he, there has to be a he, right? Let's say he is honest. And this is really true. All I care about is competence. Is that believable? Is that useful? Is it optimal? Or is it just delusional?

I want to put value on competence as well. Like, I wouldn't just pick a woman of color if their competence wasn't there. That's not at all what I. I'm saying. So I think that's important. But I also think it's denying the reality of what's happening. So there's data in the book and there's been a lot of studies done that we tend to favor people who look like us or who have similar interests to us or who we think are like us. Right. And so there is a lot of bias in the recruiting and the hiring process that allows white leaders to continue to hire white employees as a result of what they think is comfortable. And so that's an example of where I think it's not just there are other things that are happening, like unconscious bias and even conscious bias in the system that if we don't correct and acknowledge that, it will continue to happen. That's why the pipeline in some ways is the way it is, because we, we exist. It's just, you know, a lot of companies don't know where to look for us because the both processes weren't created to actually find us. And a lot of it's more of a network effect where you tend to recruit and hire and favor the people that you know. And that happens not only the hiring process, but it's also happening in the promotion process. And so when a leader says that, I think they can have the best of intent, but they can't with data, show me that that's not what's happening within their companies. And so that's the discount.

A few months ago, I interviewed a person from Amazon who was Jeff Bezos's chief of staff, and he told me that one part of Amazon had an issue where to cut it short. There were too many males. And so what the recruiting department did was they established a rule that any female applicant and resume would get a call back. That wasn't true with men. Men had to, you know, jump over the fence, but any woman got a call. Do you think that is a useful.

Kind of intervention, at least?

First step, yeah, to improve the pipeline.

All the devil is in the details, right? So it really depends how that's executed and all of that. I mean, to me, it's a similar question to the quota question. Am I okay with maybe some unnatural interventions to get us to a place feels like we're maybe seeing people that we wouldn't normally, or what's happening, that only men are applying for those roles or that are showing up at the same time? I don't want a situation where we're doing unnatural things on a regular basis, ongoing, if we start to solve for those things. So I think there's potential danger in that process, and so I'm okay with it. But I would want a lot of unearthing a lot of questions, a lot of protocols. I would want to check in on it every 90 days to understand if it's not doing something inappropriate or unnatural. But what that shows me is something is happening at that level or in that hiring process that is flagging for people. Maybe there's something here and we need to explore it, and now we need to put some things against it, but maybe there's some other things that can be done. Right? Is there some. Are there women in the department that maybe are ready for promotion or we can put some sponsorship processes around that would get them more ready, like. So I. I don't think that's the only intervention. If you just told me that intervention without context, I'm not sure I love it. But. But I also think that we're in a place like the Rooney rule, right, That a lot of companies in a lot of places are doing right now. To actually make sure there's one woman candidate in a recruiting process is another example of that. And I think, again, maybe it gets more women looked at. So I'm not against it, but it's how it's done is just as important as the rule itself or the intervention itself.

So just for clarification, the rooting rule that you're referring to is that in the NFL there had to be at least one minority person interviewed for the head coaching job, right?

Correct.

Yep. And so companies are taking that literally, that title of the Rooney Rule, and applying it to certain jobs. And so saying at a certain level, like I saw, I know a few companies at a VP level, they're saying, we want to apply the Rooney Rule to women. So you have to at least have one female candidate in the discussions as you're looking at candidates for their VP role. So that's how it's showing up. Or translating in certain. In certain company contexts, sex, which is total. Okay, tell me why it's total.

That. Okay, so we checked the box. We interviewed one black guy. Now we can go hire the white guy. I mean, that's what it comes down.

You're saying it doesn't solve for the problem. Yeah, I understand that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What's the dangers of something like every female gets at least a call. What could go wrong?

Yeah, I think the danger in something like that can be that at some point it's not seen as fair, or that at some point you're spending a lot of resources maybe talking to people who don't meet a certain threshold or criteria or a certain level of what you're looking for. So I think that's part of what is the danger. At the same time, to jump back to our lived experience conversation, part of what I do is help a lot of companies look at senior levels and also starting to look at board placement. And what I'm talking about is the fact that women of color bring a lot of lived experience that's not valued in those processes. So if we just look at, have they had a global experience or have they managed a large P and L or some of the things we traditionally look at, we may not get as many women, and especially women of color in those experiences because we're new in some of these spaces. Right. We haven't had all of that history. There's a small group of us, but there's not, you know, tons and tons of us. And so part of what we have to do is change the definition of what. What qualified looks like. So I'm okay with some of the change, but I think just blank, blanketly looking at everyone who applies will also. It's not probably the best use of resources. There's probably other things we can also do and how you described it to me, but I have to believe there's probably more to that story or more that they're doing. I can't imagine anybody who applies gets.

The call, but you had one of the best turn of words or phrases that I have ever encountered. So I want you to explain this because I just loved it. Okay.

Okay.

So it was how to change the game while you're playing the game.

Yes. So there is a chapter in the book that has that title, and I struggled with that chapter, guy. I didn't want to write it because I feel like there's so many books on how to play the game. And my whole feeling is like, we need less of us to be playing the game. We need more of us to be changing the game. And I met with this amazing woman, Kia, who used to work at the NFL and now she has her own firm where she likes, you know, really goes deep into discrimination or racist incidents like literally uncovering and looking at the data and figuring out what to do with it. And she said to me, we were deep in a conversation and she said, deepa, we need to do both, right? We need to be doing both. And so that's really talking about how do we advance, how do women of color advance in the current system while we're making change against it? And I think. I think it would be remiss of me to not give women of color some thoughts on how to navigate this systems that we're in right now. And so that's what that. That's what that phrase is about, that we have to intelligently play the game where it's necessary. But my work is really about trying to get less of us to play it, because the more we play it, I think the more it takes from us, to be honest with you.

But I really want some tactical tips about how to change the game.

Yeah, there are three levels. The women who are just entering the workplace, women who are advancing, and then women who are going closer to retirement. So I call learn, earn, and return phases of your career and that there are things you can understand and really, you know, learn when you're in the learn phase of your career. And that playing that game is really understanding what the culture is about. What is the culture value? What is really important to get. To get promoted is an example. There's also an example where part of playing the game and doing this differently is women of color may be sharing their pay information. So I had a couple of companies and examples where younger women more than older women. I want to see more of us doing this. We're sharing their pay information to kind of figure out were they being paid equitably and was there discretion or issues with what they were getting paid versus others. And so I think it's sharing information being really helpful, but understanding what it takes in the company context you're in to excel and especially as women of color, then making choices around what you do around that. There's another example in the book that I love where I talked to a recruiter, Jana, and she said to me that women of color don't always negotiate in the right ways. We don't tend to ask for what we think we deserve. She gave me examples over and over again about how some of the white men she works with will ask for 2x or 3x, what they're. What they were getting in their previous company as it. As when they're in final. Final discussions or interviews at their new. At the new company they're going to. And they were literally asked for 3x what they think they deserve or what they got before without any fear or any expectation that they're going to get it. And all the women of color I've met and Jana was sharing her research as well, or her conversations as well. Most of us edit ourselves. We will Maybe ask for 10% more than what we had before. Not because we're afraid of asking, although I think that's part of it. More because we're afraid of the. No. Like somehow that is shameful if we don't get the 2 or 3x amount. And so part of playing the game is realizing like you can ask for it, but it doesn't reflect necessarily badly on you if you don't get it. And that's part of playing an example of playing the game. So. So it's a little bit of understanding and kind of changing what we have emotion around. That's really what I think playing the game is a little bit.

I will tell you, Deepa, that I have never met a man with imposter syndrome ever. Never.

I know a few.

Well, then those are the only ones in existence. Because I was just thinking about what you're saying about playing the game and men asking for two or three times. Yeah, let's just not go down that hole. I mean, my point is that it's a rare thing for Men to discuss the imposter syndrome.

I actually, I might, I might have a different opinion on that. So I actually think it exists. But I think men aren't taught to share that. They're not taught to be vulnerable around that. So I have a lot of men who've shared that with me when I've shared with them and we've had like a private conversation. But if it was probably two men sitting there, they're not going to share that because that's, you know, you all puff your feathers. That's more of what you do with each other. You don't talk about the challenges you have. But I think I'm, I think it exists. I just think it's not, it's not rewarded in the same way or there's not, it's not, it's not safe to talk about that, to be honest with you.

I stand corrected.

We know we can choose to disagree on that. I think, I think that's maybe, maybe that's my. One of my next experiments. I go, I go, I go delve into that a bit, little bit more.

You also discuss how and why women of color get in the way of, or prevent other women of color from succeeding. And that sounds illogical to me, but why does that happen?

So the research suggests that something. So let me tell you how I got to that. So I'd meet with all these women. I'd get way into like an hour long interview and at the end, the last 10 minutes, I would say, is there anything I haven't asked, asked you? And the women of color would drop their voice. You could literally see the shame on their faces. And they would say, can you talk about how we don't help each other, how white women don't help us? Which was. Came up every single time. But then also how we don't help each other as women of color. And so what I found. And we ended up doing some research with Billie Jean King, my company information. My business partner Ira did some work with Billie Jean King and that came out in the fall, got brave reviews. And we've actually recently done a TED Talk on the same topic of this idea of we don't help each other. And I share that all to say because I think it's fascinating. Everyone's really fascinated by the topic. I think it's partly because there's so few of us. And so there's this idea that where there's one seat and that we're all competing for it, right? This idea of tokenism, how we started the conversation so there's maybe one seat for a woman of color or one woman at the C suite or at the, at the board. And that idea, even though it's not said out loud, I think there's a lot of suggestion around that. And I found that in my own research, women felt like there was only one opportunity at a company or at a level. And as a result, there is an unsaid competition that happens amongst us. And part of what I want us to realize is no one told us there was one seat at the table. We don't have to accept that. Why is there only one seat for us? And so how do we change that conversation so it doesn't feel so competitive and we realize that we're not competing against each other even earlier than the seat. That's really what has to change.

Do you ever feel like, oh my God, can't I just be myself and be a career woman? Why do I have to bear the cross of every other woman trying to succeed and be their mentor and help them otherwise I'm a selfish person and et cetera, et cetera. You ever get that? There's just, why do I have to bear this cross all the time?

I'm going to speak for myself and then I'll speak for the women I met. I think it's part of what I always navigated because I was a first, right? Like, so that was just always there. Like, part of why I also wanted to make it was not just for myself, but to show the other people behind me that it was possible. I chose a very male oriented career. Like I traveled. I mean, I also picked spaces that were like that. And so I think that's part of what comes with the choices I made. But I also would share with you that most of the women of color I've interviewed have this sense of responsibility that feels very different than when I speak with men. So this is where I do see a difference. We, we feel a sense of responsibility that is part of what we think our work is, not just the job we were hired to do, but, but to mentor others and to change the culture and to do all of these things, which is hard because in one breath I'm telling you we want to do it. And we, it's literally in our DNA. And in the other breath, I'm also saying, but we also need to be rewarded and paid for it at the same time because it's a big burden. So, yeah, I wish I didn't have that, but I don't even know. I don't even know how to separate that. It's always been there.

What do you think was going through the minds of white men over 50 when they watched the super bowl halftime show?

Great question. I think there's probably a lot who thought that was required, that was done to appease people. But candidly I think there were a lot of people that were wrapping their head around is that music? Is that what America is? Who is, who is this for? And I think it speaks to the fact that we have a few different Americas going on right now and people with really different thoughts. Thoughts on who America is. And, and I think similar to the election. Yeah. The super bowl halftime show is probably shocking to, to some people.

As it should be. Yes, as it should be. Let's pretend that there are Deepas in high school listening to this podcast. So to summarize, what's your advice to them?

My advice is you can be and do anything that you are a leader and don't let what you see around you limit what you think is possible and that there are strength in numbers. So find your sisters because you're going to need them at some points and that this road is hard. But you are not alone. And there are a lot of things that you're going to be that are going to happen to you that you might question, is it me? And I want you to know it's not you that some of this is the structure, but that you have the strength and the power and the possibility of changing the game. And so I'm really excited for you and also here for you.

So that's Deepa Perseverman. If you want a seat at the table or maybe to own the table, I highly recommend that you read her book the first, the Few, the Only. By the way, what did you think of the super bowl halftime show? I'm Guy Kawasaki. I'm on a mission. Mission to make you remarkable. My thanks to the remarkable team, Peg Fitzpatrick, Jeff C. Shannon Hernandez, Luis Magana, Alexis Nishimura and the drop in queen, Madison Nismer. Until next time, mahalo and aloha. This is remarkable people.