Derek Sivers: Taking Care of Business

Here's something remarkable and not in a good way. Disengaged employees cost US companies almost $1.9 trillion a year. That's a lot of zeros. Why? Because when teams lack the right skills, productivity declines, turnover increases, and strategies stagnate. But it doesn't have to be that way. At Project Management Institute, home of the PMP and globally recognized certifications, your people can learn to collaborate, deliver on time, and actually get things the cost of not upskilling way higher than the investment Project Management Institute. Find the answers@pmi.org want to know when.

There'S a new episode of remarkable people? Simply text 831-609-0628 if you live in the US or Canada, don't miss upcoming shows. Take a moment to follow Remarkable People in your app or podcast player.

Foreign.

I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is Remarkable People. We're on a mission to help you be remarkable. This episode's guest is Derek Sivers. He's a former musician, circus ringleader, programmer, entrepreneur and TED speaker. He is the founder of CD Baby. He started this by accident in 1998 when he was selling his own CD on his website. CD Baby became the largest seller of independent music on the web. It had over 100 million in sales and over 150,000 musician clients. Ten years after starting CD Baby, Derek sold it off and gave the proceeds to a trust for music education. Derek is also a prolific author. He wrote how to Live Hell yeah or no. Your music and people and anything you want. His newest book is now available a new edition of his 2011 book, Anything youg 40 Lessons for a New Kind of Entrepreneur. In this episode we cover entrepreneurship, innovation, writing, parenting and kicking ass in general. I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People. And now here is the remarkable Derek Sivers. I've been a fan and I tell you what triggered my love of Derek Sivers, which is the famous first follower video. It's utterly fantastic video. One of my all time favorite marketing lessons of life.

Guy, I have a quick question for you. What was the most terrified you've ever been in your life where you seriously thought your heart might give out because it was beating so fast?

I can't tell you I've had any experience that terrifying. Why?

That's me on stage at the TED conference giving that talk. Was that terrifying for me?

Seriously?

Yeah. When I listen to the recordings I know I sound pretty normal, but the thing is, Ted doesn't let you use notes and that first follower talk, every sentence is perfectly synced up with that video. So it has to be memorized word for word. Like, if I miss a sentence, the whole thing is thrown off. So it's a three and a half minute monologue that I had to memorize word for word, which was hard enough. You know, anybody who's done a school play or something like that has done that. But. But then to do this at TED, right, not even a TEDx, but like the main stage TED, where there's Bill Gates, there's the Google guys, there's Bill Joy, there's, oh, my God, you know, like all these brilliant people, and I have to get up and tell them something. So I gave that talk. But to me, my biggest memory of that talk is how terrified I was. Or it was not even rationally terrified, but my body was just freaking out as I'm giving that talk. And. And then I get off stage and I had such a cool experience where Peter Gabriel rushed up to me and said, brilliant talk. Best thing I've seen in years. Absolutely wonderful. You know, profound and poignant and pithy. Just brilliant. And I was like, thank you, Mr. Gabriel. I was like, okay. I guess I did all right.

Let me tell you something. You could knock me over with a feather right now because I did not notice that at all. I mean, it was such a brilliant video. But now that's a very good segue. The point of that is that the first follower is very important. And as you say so succinctly, it turns a nutcase into a leader. So that's one theory, right? The importance of a first follower. On the other hand, you have Jeffrey Moore and the product Life Cycle. And you know how he says it's pretty easy to get the nutcases and the pioneers? It's, how do you get the late adopters, middle adopters, how do you get to Main Street? So it's contradictory. Which leads me to your book, which is 27 chapters of contradictions. So is it the first follower or is it getting to Main street that's hard?

Oh, okay. Well, I think that the important step there. Look, I'm no guru in terms of leadership. I don't know much, but I've done a couple things and I've read a few things. And I saw this video of a dancing guy right after reading Tribes by Seth Godin and Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell. And then somebody was just sharing this video of a guy dancing at a music festival. And I said, hey, this kind of reminds me of what I just read about in Tribes and Tipping Point. I went yeah, actually, there are a lot of similarities here. So to me, the big lesson that was, let's say, visualized, we can think of this conceptually, but to see it happen visually was that that guy was dancing alone for a long time. There are other videos you can find of YouTube of this one shirtless guy was DANC for like, 20 minutes, and everybody's just looking at him like, yeah, look at that weirdo over there. And finally, after 20 minutes, one guy gets up to imitate him. Like, you know what? I'm just gonna jump in. And this one guy gets up and starts imitating him. And that's what sets it off. So it's felt to me like the first follower was showing the rest of us how to follow. So now we just had to do what he did. So I think those early adopters are the bridge between the mainstream. They're showing everybody else, look, here's how you do it. Look what I'm doing with it. You know, look, I've hacked it to do such and such. Look, these are the benefits I'm getting from it. And then the rest of us that are more mainstream can go, okay, I can do that. I can do what he's doing. So now the actual innovators kind of moot. What we're really following is the first.

Followers since we're geeking it out on videos. Did you see the video where these kids are bouncing these balls around, and then a guy in a gorilla suit comes in and, like, for 30 seconds, he does something, and then they ask the kids, did you see anything unusual? And half of them say, no, nothing unusual happened, but there was a gorilla in the middle dancing or something.

The first time you saw the video, did you see it with the kids watching, or did you just see the video of the basketballs in the gorilla?

I saw the one where you saw everybody gorilla and the kids.

Okay. But I still remember the first time I saw that video. Yeah, I watched all these kids bouncing the balls, and it said, okay, watch this video. Count how many times the balls have bounced. Right? I think that's what they said. And then afterwards, they said, yes, but did you notice the gorilla? I was like, no way. And once. You can only see it for the first time once, Right? Once you've seen it once now, you always know there's a gorilla there. But, God, there's like a life lesson in there. Actually, thanks for reminding me of that. Somebody might tell you, like, sorry, I'm going to zoom out a bit to life here. Somebody might tell you, you're being rude. You said something rude to this person. That was really inconsiderate. And you might think, really, I didn't. And you go, oh, I did. Oh, that was inconsiderate, wasn't it? Oh, crap. I'm really sorry. And now that somebody's pointed it out, now you can see it. But the first time it happened, you just didn't see it. I think that's actually a wonderful metaphor for a lot of things in life. It's like our personality flaws are like that gorilla. We don't see them until somebody points them out. Yep.

Now half my listeners are stopping the podcast and they're gonna go look for the guy dancing and the gorilla.

Oh, but now we've told them it's a shame. Now they know. But did you see the gorilla? Like anybody? Yeah. If you haven't seen it yet, we just wrecked the surprise for you. Sorry.

Yeah, that's true. I am so fascinated that New Zealand apparently has reached so deeply into your soul. So what is it about New Zealand that's so magic for you?

It's not the damn Hobbit movies, that's for sure. But I mean, not only is it physically beautiful, we all know that. We've seen how physically beautiful the landscape is, but the people here have a wonderful practicality. They're extremely pragmatic. They are the descendants of farmers that moved over here from Scotland and Wales, very ruggedly, turned raw land into cultured, domesticated land, and had to be very pragmatic also because it was so remote, they had to be very resourceful. That's the word I was missing, because we're so remote. It used to be that if your tractor broke and you needed a replacement part from England, because no tractors were made here, you had to wait six months for the replacement part to arrive on a boat. Right. So people learned how to fix things. There's a local saying of number eight wire. So there's a certain kind of wire that was used to make local fences, and we had plenty of that here. There is plenty of number eight wire. So it's like how we talk about duct taping a solution together. You number eight wire a solution. So that's the local slang for, like, duct taping something together. A little number 8 wire can fix anything. So I really like the very practical, resourceful attitude here. And it's just. Yeah, I agree with its values.

And by your earlier comment, I take it you haven't gone to Hobbiton and hung out there.

I haven't. Well, I live in Wellington, where the movies were made. And in fact, my girlfriend works at Weta and makes the sculptures and stuff for Peter Jackson's company that made all the Lord of the Rings movies. You know, they do these tours where they say, ooh, let us show you where the movie was filmed. This tree is where the hobbits were hiding from the orcs. This hill is where this battle was made. And I was think, you know what? Here, I'm going to show you something special. See that yellow house over there? No, the one next to it. Yeah, that yellow house. That's the only place in New Zealand where Lord of the Rings was not filmed. So it's all right that hype is fading now. I've been here for 10 years, the Lord of the Rings hype is fading down.

I've been there twice. I don't know if that makes me go higher or lower in your book, but I've been. It's in Mara or something.

Right. It's a good place to visit, but it's a great place to live. It's a great place to bring up kids. There's a lot of freedom. In fact, I just went to Japan for two weeks with my kid. I've got a 10 year old son and he has grown up here with so much freedom, he just does whatever he wants. He goes out by himself and even if there's a playground, he does whatever he want. Whatever he wants. And so we went to Japan and it was shocking the difference in attitude towards kids. Like he went to a Legoland type playground and immediately just started climbing on the castle and employees shot over to him right away. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Mustn't touch that. No, get down, please. No climbing on the castle, no doing this, no doing that, no touching the foxes. And so, yeah, he's grown up with a lot of freedom and so New Zealand's a great place to bring up kids.

Oh, Derek, you are the perfect interviewee because my next question is, what have you learned by being a parent? Because so much of your writing and your videos about your son and going to Japan and all that. So what have you learned?

I don't feel I have any authority to say much of anything. You've got four kids, so I feel that you've been able to see the difference between nature and nurture. Right. Like your kids have very different natures, I assume.

No kidding.

Okay. See, I've only got one, so I haven't been able to see that yet. So I can say my kid is the best My kid is so badass, he is so smart. But I can't take any credit for any of this because it might just be DNA. You know, I feel that's one thing I've learned from parenting is that I don't know anything about parenting because I've just got a really cool kid. But you know what? John Lennon said something once that made a big influence, big difference for me. It was a big influence on me is he missed the childhood of his first son, Julian. And so when Sean was born, I think probably 1975 or so, he said, I've decided I'm gonna just stop everything. No more. I'm just gonna be John, not John Lennon. Told my agent no to everything. I'm just gonna be a full time dad. And I remember reading that as a teenager thinking, that's a cool path. Go get as successful as you can, make a lot of money, follow your dreams. And then when you have a kid, just stop and be with your kid. So that's what I did. I did a lot of things, I made a lot of money. And then when my wife was pregnant, I was living in Sing lot of things. And we just said, let's get out of here, let's go to the middle of nowhere where we don't know anybody. And that was New Zealand. So we moved here, really for him, so that I could just give my full time attention. So I'm mostly a full time dad, or have been mostly a full time dad for most of his childhood. And it's been wonderful, it's been great. It's the things that usually stress out most parents, I think are the friction, the misalignment between their time schedule and a kid's sense of time. You know, this frustration of like, come on, we need to go now, we're late. Come on, hurry up. So with my kid, I just. I'm sorry. It's luxurious. I feel ridiculously privileged to say that I did this, but yeah, I just was a full time dad that was able to just hang out with him on his schedule. So a kid's sense of time has nothing to do with the round clock with the hands and the numbers. So I've just been able to be on his sense of time.

Do you have any concerns that he may grow up thinking this is how life is? You know, I'm the center of the.

Universe, I'm raising a narcissist, maybe. We'll see.

Well, I didn't say that.

No, it might be, I don't know. That said, it's God. This is another interesting subject of whether social skills can be taught. Like, I think conversational skills can be taught. I think you can learn to be a better conversationalist, and I think you can learn to be more empathetic, even if it's just, what do you call it? Fake it till you make it. My favorite Kurt Vonnegut phrase is you are whatever you pretend to be. That if you pretend to be something, you become that thing, right? So somebody who isn't naturally empathetic can just do what empathetic people should do or act empathetic, even if they're not feeling empathetic. But then acting empathetic can make you more empathetic. You know, like forcing yourself to ask people questions in conversation. Even if you're not inherently interested in this person, you're just tossed into a networking event or something, right? And you're just like, might as well make the best of it. So you just go up to a stranger and say something like, what's the worst thing that happened to you this week? Or whatever, you know, open ended questions. Then they start talking and now you become more interested in that person. I think I've always taught my kid empathy skills. And now he does them instinctively. Like ever since he was 2 or 3, whenever another kid would fall down in the playground and get hurt, I'd say, oh, let's go give him a cuddle. And we'd rush over to the kid that just fell down and like, give him a hug and say, it's okay. And so the first one or two times I instructed him to do that when he was 2 or 3 years old, and ever since he was 3, whenever a kid falls down in the playground, he just instinctively does it now. He just rushes over and puts his arms around him and says, it's okay, it's all right, can I help? And I just see him just do this naturally now, hopefully these things can be taught. So even if I'm accidentally raising a narcissist, at least he can, you know, not wreck the world.

Someday he's gonna listen to this podcast.

That's all right.

I'd be traumatized now.

You know what's fun? Sorry, how old is your oldest kid now?

29.

Okay. So yeah, he's just 10. And so just the last year or two, he's old enough to have these really mature conversations. So I'll actually tell him things like we're talking about now, like I'll talk with him kind of meta about parenting. And it's fun to hear his point of view. And, yeah, he's kind of wise. It's really cool to have those. When they get old enough to have those conversations.

You said you just went to Japan. Have you heard of the Japanese concept of ikigai?

Yes.

So is parenting your icky guy now?

Ooh, not my sole one, no. I don't know if it's primary or secondary for me. I actually spend most of my time on parenting, but it feels secondary. I still feel like my own personal goals with writing and thinking and creating are still my primary focus in life, and my kid is secondary. But I might just be saying that. I don't know. If I were to actually look at my time, it might be the opposite. Or if you were to put me into one of those deciding moments, like, what's it gonna be? I'm gonna kill your writing career or kill your kid? Like, you might think I know which one I'd choose. The kid, obviously. Yeah. Do without him. Well, what if.

What if it was something like, you know, your kid is in a important championship soccer game or ski tournament or violin concert or something, or you got INV speak at the. At Davos. Which would you pick?

I have had something like that happen. I'll tell you a tiny story. And I've actually talked about this with him too. About three years ago, the TED conference was doing their TED Global, which is a thing that they would do once a year in a different location each year that was deliberately far away from the main one in Vancouver, Canada. And then it was going to be in Arusha, Tanzania. I was like, ooh, I've never been to Africa. It's like, okay, I haven't gone to TED in a few years. I'm going to TED Global in Arusha, Tanzania. Hell, yeah. So, guy, I got two books on the key Swahili language and like an audio course program. I started learning Swahili. I read two books on the history of the East African coast, otherwise known as the Swahili coast. I got really into it. I was so excited to go. But right before that conference, I was attending another conference in Seoul, Korea. And then I had a few days off in Singapore, and then I was to go to Africa. And just two days before I was set to go, his mom called me from New Zealand and said, he's asking if he's ever going to see you again. He misses you so much. And I was like, oh, fuck. I was like, have I been away that long? I was like, in his world. I was like, oh, God. Like, I don't like nothing can harm our relationship. Nothing is worth that. If I become one of those dads that's absent and he thinks of me in that way. No conference in Tanzania is worth that. So I blew it off. I blew off the conference I didn't attend, lost all the money for the airfare and the conference. It's all non refundable and I flew straight back to New Zealand to be with him. But in hindsight, he and I have gone without seeing each other for a month. Once when his mom took him to see her family and I didn't go and we're totally fine. Like he and I have such a tight bond and that if we don't see each other for a couple weeks, it's fine. And in hindsight, I really gave up a big dream of mine to be with him for that extra five or six days. And so in hindsight, I regret it. I don't think I should have. I think I would have talked to him on the phone and said, I'm going to Africa. I'm going to have all kinds of stories for you. I'm going to bring you something cool from Africa. I'll see you next week. And it actually might have been cool for him to know, like, wow, my dad's in Africa, maybe looking on the map to see where I am. Maybe he could watch some YouTube videos of Tanzania to see where I am and then I could have come home and we would have hung out and everything would have been great. So you know that example you said, like his school play or Davos? I think I'd just have a conversation with him and tell him, like, I don't want you to ever give up on your dreams for me. And in return, I don't want to give up on my dreams for you. Like, we should never give up on being our fullest selves for some little event. So I think that's my answer.

Wow, that is not how I expected that story to end, to put it mildly. I have to stop and think about that.

It's cool that I get to talk with him about this too. We talk for hours and hours and hours every week I spend about 30 hours a week with him. And so we talk about this stuff and like, I'll say, you know, do you remember that time that you thought you would never see me again? Because I was about to go to Africa. So I'll talk again like meta with him about this to help him understand the mindset too and make sure that he understands. Never give up anything for Me, If I'm old and sick and you want to go to art school in Vienna, go. Don't sit by my bedside. I'll hire a nurse. Don't worry about it. Never, never, never give up what you want to do for me. Please go live your life. I want you to be your fullest self. And in return, I want you to want that for me, too.

So why don't the two of you go to Tanzania?

I think we will. We're actually going to India for the first time in a couple months. And I think we will go to Africa for goods someday soon.

You make it pretty clear on your website that you basically say no to everything. So I just want to know, how did I make it past oh, God, that very high bar?

I've read so many of your books. The one with the pencils, the ape, the marketing ones. And I just started reading your Wise Guy, and I think there are even others in the past. No, you are. There are some things where somebody who has no track record says they'd like to interview me. I think maybe. And I got an email from you. I'm like, oh, hell, yeah, I am right on that. I so admire you. It's such an honor to talk with you.

We can just end the interview right now.

Thanks, everybody.

So. So, you know, I did all this background research on you, and I have to say that you seem like such a total, no bullshit kind of guy. So I really. I want to know just what do you think of gurus and thought leaders and experts and people who hold themselves out that way?

I have learned long ago to disassociate the ideas from the giver of ideas. And I think that's helpful because you can hear a wonderful bit of wisdom from a stupid Hollywood movie or from a drunk at a bar, you know, but if that bit of wisdom is something that you can use and you go, ooh, that's what I needed to hear, this gives me a new insight. This gives me a new perspective. And if that helps you in some way, then that's all that matters. It doesn't matter who said it. So back when I used to buy more hardcover books, they have the strong cover, the binding, and then they have the loose, glossy thing around it that's meant to call attention in the physical bookstore. So that thing often has a picture of the author. By the way, quick pause your. What was it called? The reality, the title of yours. Reality Check. Reality Check is one of the best book covers I've ever seen. When I was, like, researching book Covers and trying to say, yeah, I love the COVID of Reality Check. Okay. I just. I've always wanted to tell you that. But a lot of those glossy hardcover books would have a picture of the author on the COVID and I would always tear that off right away. I'd buy the book and remove the glossy cover so that all I was left with was just a solid color book with the title on it and went there. This book is not about the author. It's about me. I'm reading this book for me. I don't care who you are, Mr. Guru, Mr. Thought Leader. This is about me. I don't care what your accomplishments are. I don't care what you've been the CEO of or what other people have said about you. All I care about is how your thoughts are useful to me. So that's my opinion on thought leaders, is I really don't care who they are or how acclaimed they are. And I also. I also don't care if people try to discredit them, right? If I read a brilliant philosopher or somebody just giving brilliant ideas that I find useful and you tell me that person didn't pay their taxes, like, therefore, you shouldn't listen to what they say. That's a bad person who did bad things. You shouldn't listen to what she says. I don't care about who's giving the ideas. I only care about the ideas themselves, detached from the giver. And you know what this reminds me of is Glenn Gould, the classical concert pianist from the 1950s. What I think my favorite movie of all time is called 38 short films about Glenn Gould, because he did some fascinating, innovative stuff where he was the most acclaimed classical pianist of his time. People would flock to concert halls and pack in seats, thousands to one, meaning like thousands of people crammed into seats, all staring, staring at one man on the stage. And he really didn't like that imbalance. He did it, but then he stopped saying, I disagree with this ratio of thousands to one. I think the relationship between musician to listener should be one to one. I want to make music individually for one person at a time. That's why he focused the rest of his time on recording. And then my favorite thing, the point that I'm getting to, is that he said ideally, actually, the relationship would be zero to one. We wouldn't even know who the musician is. So now a listener could have a direct relationship with the music itself, not the musician giving it. I went, ah, that's what I love. That's how I feel about thought leaders. I wish that they were all anonymous and we could just focus on the ideas themselves.

So I would say that your book how to Live approaches that. First of all, it doesn't have a glossy cover, that's for sure.

Yep.

But first of all, describe that book because, like, it's hard. I have a hard time wrapping my head around that book.

It's funny. Your newest Wise guy book is like your. More your most personal book of vignettes from your life. And to me, how to Live is my most personal book because this is how I see the world. Sorry, listeners, I'll rewind a bit. So my newest book called how to Live, the subtitle is important. It's 27 conflicting answers and one weird conclusion. And so the idea is there's this question of how should I live? And we are used to having many different thinkers or different books give us conflicting answers. One book says that habits are the key. And another book says, no, the obstacle is the way. And the other book says, no, the four hour work week. And somebody says, no, it's the subtle art of not giving a fuck. This is the way. Right. And these answers disagree with each other. But as you're reading each book, you feel thoroughly convinced. You go, yeah, this is so true. Habits really are everything. It's all about the habits. Habits are what life is about. But then you read another book and you go, no, it really is the subtle art of not giving a fuck. That's what life is about. Right? And so how to Live is a book where each chapter disagrees with all the other chapters. So one chapter says, here's how to live. Be independent. All misery comes from dependency. And it makes the best argument in about four or five pages of why being truly independent is the way to live. And then the very next chapter says, here's how to live. Commitment. All great things come from commitment. There's no sense in looking for a great relationship. A great relationship is something you create. You create it by your commitment. And instead of searching for the best career or place to live, commit to a place or a career. And that's what makes it great. And it's the best argument I could make in favor of why committing is how to live. But it completely disagrees with the previous chapter, right? And then the next chapter is, here's how to Live. Fill your senses. You know, all of this stuff is just abstract. What really matters is, like, the touch, the smell, the sound you need to fill your senses. You're only here on earth for a limited time. Go do it all, see it all, hear it all. The next chapter will say, here's how to live. Do nothing, follow the Buddhists, just meditate on the hill. It's all in your head anyway. Detach from this impermanent life. So I believe all of these things, and they can all be true simultaneously. They don't conflict with each other really, in the way that, like, a flute does not conflict with a cello, and a piano does not conflict with a guitar. You can combine them. You can bring them in and out of the music of your life at different times. You can decide, I need a little more guitar now. And now I'm going to combine it with the piano. Now stop the guitar and just let the piano continue. That's how you can be with the different approaches to living.

Do you think that the inability to keep two conflicting thoughts in your brain is a sign of stupidity?

Stupidity, no. Value system. Maybe. I guess if you were grown up being told that you have to decide, like, no, what's the answer? One or the other, you need to decide. I guess that value system could get deep into somebody's soul where they feel a need to decide. But that's kind of what I was hoping to do with this book called how to Live, is show people that it can be and not.

Or can you give us some insights in how to decide between pivoting and gutting it out?

For example, to keep going with the metaphor, it's like, how does a composer decide whether what's needed now are the clarinets or the violas? You have to just make a creative choice. But also, things are usually more subtle than slogans and aphorisms make us think they are. Aphorisms and tweets and slogans are wonderful for portability. We could carry them with us in our mind, but they're not the most accurate representation we can believe. Look before you leap, and he who hesitates is lost. We can believe both of those truisms, but we have to know when's the right time to use each of them. Like, neither one can answer all of your directional questions in life, you have to know when to pull out each one. So I think, yeah, the truth is usually more nuanced than the little tweets and aphorisms would have us believe. So, yeah, it's the complexity of life, like knowing when to use the different things that we've learned.

I'm sure. I'm not sure, but there's an Amazon review where the guy starts off and saying, this book is full of contradictions. I don't know what the author's point was? Like nothing makes sense. Everything contradicts each other. And like it could. Excuse me, did you miss the boat here? That's the whole point, right?

I should do that thing. You know, some proprietors do it when somebody lives them a bad business. Say they've got like a high end microbrewery and somebody leaves a bad review on some social media site saying like, these guys didn't have Budweiser, they didn't have Coors, and they'll put that negative one star review on their door going, that's right, we don't have that stuff. You aren't welcome here. So yeah, that was really funny. I really liked your ape book about the self publishing and I actually followed that blueprint a lot for the creation and release of my own books. So even though my first book was on Penguin and I loved my connection at Penguin and she was wonderful, I just, I wanted to self publish. She offered to publish anything I did in the future. But I really like self publishing. I used to run CD baby. I know how to run the stores. I know how to make a store. I have my own opinion on how things could be made and sold. I think the creativity does not end at the last page. It continues on to the way that we present it and deliver it to the world. Yeah, sorry, what were we just talking about? I lost my train of thought. I started thinking about your ape book. What was the question? Oh, the bad review. So sorry, after. Sorry, I know, what was the question? I know it's stacked on tangents. No, you're talking about the bad review. So I sold all of my books only on my website, exclusively on my website for over a year before I finally and reluctantly and quietly put them on Amazon. And after quietly putting it on Amazon, Yeah. The second review of how to Live said, yeah, what the hell? This book is contradicting itself. And it's. Yeah, it's funny because you know, the very subtitle of the book is 27 Conflicting Answers. That's the whole point.

I think people should mark that review as the most helpful because yes, that'd be fun.

We'll do a campaign. Everybody please go to the Amazon page for how to Live and mark that the most helpful review. Let's try to get this book down to one star.

And you are such a perfect interviewee because my next question was, clearly you can get published by any of the big houses, so why self publish? Is it just the creative control or is it the greater gross margin?

Oh God, no. It's not the money. In fact, I don't scream it from the rooftops, but I set up my publishing business as a C Corp, not an S Corp or an llc, which means that all of the money stays in the company itself and none of it flows through to me. And I did that way on purpose because I give away all the profits. So all the money from selling books, none of it comes to me. It all stays inside the C Corp, which then all goes back out to charitable organizations, usually just through give the effective altruism stuff. I just let them decide what's the most effective use for it. So it's not for the money. It's a little bit for the principle that when we first got online, you were there at the very beginning too. You know, mid-90s, it was so decentralized and it felt so cool that anybody could set up their own website. People could run a server out of their home, and they did. There were thousands of these little BBSs and little local forums and bulletin boards. And I really loved the decentralization of that. And I miss that. And I wish that history had taken a slightly different turn and that just like most people know how to drive, I wish that most people knew how to make their own website or set up their own server. Like it would just be a basic life skill that we knew how to do. So that when a company comes along and says like, no, no, no, no, no, we'll handle that for you here. Give us all of your information, give us all of your friends, you know, that we could just look at that offer and say, no, thanks, I'm all set. So to me, when I look at Amazon, I just say, no, thanks. Like, I don't really need anything you can offer. I could just sell these myself. I don't need you. I'm really just making these for my existing fans anyway. And we've got search engines. You search for the name of the book and it finds me. And if I lose a few sales because of that, I'm okay with that. Louis C.K. years ago, decided to bypass Ticketmaster. Ticketmaster had this absolute monopoly on venues, and venues said, you can't perform here unless you use Ticketmaster. So Louis CK was just popular enough that he said, all right then, I'm not going to play your venue. And he only worked with smaller independent venues that didn't use Ticketmaster. And he only sold the tickets himself directly on his Louis ck.net website. I thought that was so badass. And such a great demonstration. He's taking a Small sacrifice for himself because of the principle of it, you know, to say, like, some of us need to be the ones to stand up and. And say no to the man and decentralize and be a bit of a role model. So I think I just choose to do that with my own books.

I think that many people believe that they should find a passion in their life relatively young and then dedicate their lives to it. And I swear, there are kids who are like 18 years old who haven't discovered their passion yet and don't know what to put on their college essay. So do you think people should set themselves up for seeking this passion, or should they just scratch interests?

Okay, you brought up ikigai earlier. I thought of it independently. I didn't know about ikigai until after I wrote something called happy, smart, and useful. And I drew these three circles with the intersection. And then people said, it's kind of like ikigai. And I looked it up and went, oh, that is kind of similar. I think those have four circles. But anyway, to me, we have to think of the intersection of happy, smart, and useful. That you could do something that just makes you happy. But if it's of no use to the world, then that's like the starving artist problem. Meaning if somebody's making music that's deeply meaningful for them, but nobody else likes their music, then we call that the starving artist. Right? Somebody's creating, but the world is not rewarding them for creating. The world's not into it. So that's a big problem in any field, not just for artists. You can feel that you've got a deep passion for an app that's going to tell you what other people are eating or something like that. And you could throw your life into this for years and make that app and the world can go, we don't want that. So that may be fine with you, right? If nobody read my books, I would still write. I don't care. I'm doing this for me. I'm not doing this so much for others. But if you want the world to reward you, especially if you're planning on being sustainable, then you have to do something the world is rewarding you for. So by that measure, you shouldn't just follow your passion. You should, like you say, scratch your itches, put a bunch of things out into the world, and then most importantly, see what the world is rewarding you for. So it's like you try lots of things, and then when the world says, ooh, that one, that's what we want now you can double down on that thing. Trent Reznor, we know him from Nine Inch Nails, the musician behind Nine Inch Nails. So there's a little known story that early on, before he was famous, he was a musician in Ohio that liked to just be in the recording studio by himself and play all the instruments himself and maybe with a couple friends, but generally was in charge of things. So he had five different band names recording under five different styles, but they were all basically him. So he had a grunge band here and a metal band and an industrial thing and a techno thing and a dance thing, and then it was this industrial one that a record label went, ooh, we like that. And he went, okay, that one is called Nine Inch Nails. He said, yeah, that's the one we want. We like that. So then he stopped doing the other four and he became the Nine Inch Nails guy, doubled down on the one thing that the world was rewarding him for. And then now he's doing more soundtracks than anything because the world started rewarding him to do soundtracks. So I think that the better path to follow is to not just blindly follow your passion, but to carefully listen to what the world is rewarding you for.

Doesn't that make you subject to the wisdom or stupidity of the crowd?

Yeah, I think that's why we have to mix it in that. What do you call those intersecting circles? Venn. The Venn diagrams.

Venn diagrams, Yeah.

I think that's why we draw Ikigai or My Happy Smart Useful with those intersecting circles. Right. Like, we can't only just do whatever the crowd wants of us, but we can't only do only what we want and screw the world. Unless, by the way, some of the happiest musicians I know are the ones who decided to stop doing music for the reward. So they keep a day job that doesn't suck their soul. That's something they can do from nine to five. That pays all right. It's a decent living wage career that pays them well enough to pay their cost of living. And then they just do their music at night and on weekends, but they still take it seriously. They still spend about as many hours as they would ordinarily, but they're not depending on it for their income anymore. And they can sell some music to fans and they can do what they want, and they can make music they want to make, but not need the world's approval to make them a million seller. So I think that's the. You can choose which balance works for you. Either you do work at the intersection of what the world wants for you and your creative interests, urges. Or you just get a job that pays your cost of living and you can just write what you want, play what you want, sing what you want, sculpt what you want out of mud. It doesn't matter because you're not depending on the world rewarding you for it.

Believe it or not, that's how I feel about podcasting.

How so?

I don't have a sponsor, I don't sell advertising. But it's my icky guy, and I have been fortunate to make money in other ways where I can afford to lose money on podcasting. I don't care. I truly believe that the quality of this podcast will not be appreciated until I die. That's not reason to accelerate my death. But I digress.

God, that's so cool. When I sold CD Baby in 2008, like I had, CD Baby was already profitable. I was the sole owner. I had no investors, and it had already been making a few million a year for years. So when I sold it, I sold it for more money than I was ever going to be able to spend in my life. And my first thought was that thing that you just said. Now that I've got this, I can choose to do other things and not even if I lose money on them. Like, I could do other things for musicians now and charge nothing. Even if it costs me, I don't know, 100,000 a year, I can choose to do this 10 years and I can afford it. That's so badass. Yeah, that was the first place my head went to when I sold the company.

Well, by your definition I'm a badass, then.

Yes, you are. I agree. Up next on Remarkable People. But by making each idea stand in its own spotlight, in its own post, and then later you can just take all of those and combine them and wrap them up into a book. It gives you a much better sense of mobility, momentum. It helps you develop the individual ideas, and I think it helps you call attention to some of the bright ideas that ordinarily might get buried.

Listeners of the Remarkable People podcast will learn from some of the most successful people in the world. They provide practical tips and inspiring stories that will help you be more remarkable if you live in the US or Canada. Text 831-609-0628 to get notified of each new episode.

Welcome back to Remarkable People with Guy Kawasaki.

You already quoted from Another badass. And I just. I just want to mention one thing that he said that so resonated with Me. And I just. I'm praying, crossing my fingers and my toes and every appendage of my body that you like what he said as much as I do.

Okay.

With that build up, let me tell you what it is. Mark Manson has this theory that you found your calling, your passion, your icky guy, when the shit sandwiches involved in that process are something that you like, right? So you like the shit sandwich. I like the shit sandwiches that podcasting requires. So do you agree with that theory? Please say yes.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a nice way of putting it. I like the smell of my kids poo. When I changed all those diapers, I didn't mind it one bit. I was like, I don't know what people are complaining about. It actually smells sweet to me. If we're gonna literally follow that metaphor, by the way, I gotta say one thing about Mark Manson. Mark and I are friends because I was such a huge fan of his writing that I reached out to him long before his first book, just from his blog. So I was like, oh, my God, dude, you're my favorite writer. And he went, oh, my God, Derek Sivers, you know, I love your writing. And so actually on the first, on his subtle art of not giving a fuck, I'm on the back cover. Like, my rave about his book was on the back cover of the first edition of that hardcover. And I was very proud of that because I loved that book and just all his writing. And still to this date, I read a ton of books. I don't know if you've seen the book notes on my website. If you go to Sive RS book, you will see every book I've read since 2007 and all of my notes on it. I take detailed notes and all the cool ideas I get from these books, and I just share it on my website. And so every time I'm reading an author, I almost always paraphrase what they say, because almost every time I read an idea somebody else has written, I feel it could be said better. I hope that doesn't sound too egotistical, but I just feel that there's probably a more succinct way to put this. There's a better way to put this, and the only one that I can never paraphrase because he said it fucking perfect is Mark Manson. Every time I get to something, I'm like, there's no better way to say that he nailed it. I think he's my cellan now. No, he was a few months ago. I don't know. Unless he's here right now and didn't tell me. But no, I think he's in la.

When I interviewed him for this podcast, he was in New Zealand, but that was months and months ago.

Oh, okay. Yeah, he was here a few months ago. Yeah. Last year or earlier this year. Anyway. Yeah, we went on a long walk. I took him to my favorite forest and with him and his wife and. Yeah, it's our first time catching it in a while.

Not Hobbiton, I take it.

No, no, no. That is not my favorite forest. Although I live right next to the forest that I was referring to earlier, where it. And here is where the. Where the hobbits were hiding from the black rider or whatever. It's like, that's. I live right next to that, so I walk by that almost every day. It's kind of funny. All right.

How much time you got?

We're good. I'm loving this. It's such an honor to talk with you. So lay it on me. Anything you want.

I have some topics. This can be a speed round. Okay. How's that?

Great. Okay, Speed round.

So this is a speed round because I basically want the succinct Gospel according to Derek.

All right.

Because I know you're capable of doing this. Topic number one is the art of raising money. How to raise money?

I've never done it.

Okay.

No idea.

How to convince people to join your team.

They have to have the same mission. When I started CD Baby, all my first employees were either musicians or people that loved musicians enough that they just wanted to join my mission to help musicians. And it was only much later when people were finding it through a help wanted ad because they were looking for a job. And those people never really aligned in the company. I really think you just have to find people that have the same mission as you do.

How about how to write a book?

Lots of blog posts. I highly recommend this. Anybody listening to this? If you're thinking of writing a book, I so, so, so highly recommend. Don't keep it buried inside of a book until the end. Take your individual ideas and shine a spotlight on one idea at a time by making each one a separate blog post. Even if you just put it on a little anonymous WordPress that you haven't told people about. But by making each idea stand in its own spotlight, in its own post, and then later, you can just take all of those and combine them and wrap them up into a book. It gives you a much better sense of momentum. It helps you develop the individual ideas, and I think it helps you call attention to some of the bright ideas that ordinarily might get buried on page 280. The best book I've found about how to write a book lately is called Write Useful Books. It gives a great step by step methodology on writing a great book for us. In fact, the author, he's a fascinating guy. I think he'd make a really good interview for you too. Oh, yeah.

Okay. Okay, so my last question for you is, what's your advice about the first job out of college?

Ooh, I'm gonna cheat and give the advice for, like your first 10 jobs out of college. I think you should do lots. You should absolutely not get onto one tried and true path. I think it's the weird things you do early on that will be your advantage later on. I was the ringleader MC of a circus for 10 years. And inside of that job, I did Christmas caroling at shopping malls. I got inside the big giant bear suit to give kids hugs at amusement parks. I played in the rain at pig shows. I built a giant dragon and wrote all the music for this big dragon dance piece. I moved to New York City and I said yes to everybody that was looking to hire a musician. If it said jazz pianist wanted, I said, all right, I'm a jazz pianist, I can do it. If they said heavy metal guitarist needed, I said, all right, I can do it. And I answered every ad. I did every little gig. When I was 22, I got this weird gig playing guitar for the Japanese pop star Ryuichi Sakamoto. I sold chimney sweep services by telemarketing. I did so many weird little jobs. And because I was doing these weird jobs, all of my friends were like weird musicians and actors and sculptors. And these were my friends. And so I was surrounded by such creative people living interesting, unique, creative lives. Like my girlfriend of many years when I was 21, her parents had never held a job. They would just do odd jobs for money. And they lived in an old house that was like 30,000 bucks they built themselves. And they put their daughter through college with the money they made, like making pottery and doing odd photography. And this was my extended family, and these were my role models. And so then later, after I started CD Baby and I'm helping musicians and then I sold the company and people thought I was an entrepreneur. So suddenly I'm surrounded by all these young, ambitious entrepreneurs wearing suits, talking about getting their something something series A and angel investing and things I know nothing about, and they think that I'm one of them. And they're saying Things like, how did you have the courage to quit your job? And I'd say, job? I've never had a job. I don't know. I was at a circus. And I think that those weird things I did early on from like age 17 to 30, became such a huge competitive advantage for me later. And I feel bad for the people that they just follow the regular path. They go to high school and they just go straight from high school into college. They get a major in communications or something like that, and they get a job at some big company and they're just wondering, like, what am I doing with my life? And yeah, I've got the same question. What are you doing with your life? Go do weird shit. Go start an emu farm somewhere and get a job on a fishing boat outside of Delacroix. You know, whatever. It's the weird stuff, the weird experiences that will give you a more unique perspective, a different angle than everybody else has and give you a different insight that sets you apart later. Sorry. To answer your question, your first job out of college, go do something really weird and keep doing weird things.

You have got to tell the story about playing music at the pig show and the lesson you learned, because that is a brilliant story.

Yeah, my first paying gig ever. I was 17 years old and I was in a band in Boston with this bass player that was more experienced than me and was in a few different bands and playing lots of gigs around town. So he had an agent. Ooh, 17 years old. And my friend had an agent. So his agent called him and said, hey, there's a pig show that pays 75 bucks for you to go play some strolling music while you do it. And he said, hell no. And he turned to me and said, derek, you want this gig? I said, hell yeah. My first paying gig. So we were living in Boston. I was at Berklee College of Music. So the round trip bus ticket to Vermont was like 50 bucks. And I didn't care that I was going to make a whopping $20 per day because this was my first paying gig ever. And I was given really no instruction. Just get on this bus, go to this place, somebody will meet you. Play music at a pig show. I'll pay you 70 bucks. So I never even met the person that was hiring me. I did the gig, showed up, I just walked around this pig show with a guitar on my neck, just playing guitar. And after three hours, I said, should I go? And they said, yeah, thanks for coming. That was wonderful. Thanks. And I got back on the Bus to Boston. And then the agent called me and said, yeah, Greg Merle. Yeah. Heard you did a really good job at the big show. And look, I've got this circus, right? And the musician just quit. So we need a musician for the circus. I need you to get on a bus to Sturbridge, Massachusetts. Okay. My wife will pick you up at the bus station. We've got this art gallery. I want you to play at the art gallery opening. And if you do well at the art opening, then you're in the circus. I said, okay. And so, yeah, I showed up to this art opening. His wife picked me up at the bus station again. I just had no idea what I was doing. I was 17 years old. So I'm sitting at an art opening, like, playing guitar, and so then this lanky guy comes up to me and says, yeah, great job. I'm Greg. I'm the guy that talked to you on the phone. So, yeah, we've got this circus. And, yeah, can you start tomorrow? I could pay you 75 bucks per show. We've got about four shows a week. I said, all right. So just said yes to everything, Which I think is a wonderful strategy early in your career. Just say yes to everything. And that's how I got my job in the circus, which ended up being over a thousand shows. Eventually, I started making in 300 bucks per show and performed a thousand shows around northeast US and it was an amazing stage experience because it turns out that the previous musician was not just the musician. He was actually, like, the ringleader MC of the whole show. So at the whopping age of 18, I became the ringleader MC of this circus and had to learn how to do even the stuff I'm doing now, even, like, this confidence to put together coherent sentences instead of stammering and saying a lot. I learned that from being on. On stage, at the circus, all of these things. Such a massive experience because I said yes to the $75 Pig show gig. So I think that's like, a huge lesson learned that I evangelize. To use your word everywhere, since that is to say yes to the early stuff. Like, to say yes to everything early on in your career.

I love that story. Me too. This is more personal than anything. So I read that you've had tinnitus since 13 or something. Do you still have it?

Yeah, it's.

How bad is it? I mean, does it. Is it keep you up bad? Because I have it, too.

Not quite keep me up, but it's. I'm aware of it at most Times I've got about five tones in there at any given time that, you know, like a super high one, a mid high that are just at all times.

Both ears or one.

Both.

But obviously you can still hear.

Yeah, I can hear everything, but I also hear these tones. So that's where I'm at at age 53.

So far I have Menieres, and Meniere's involves tinnitus, vertigo and hearing loss. And so I had an operation for the vertigo. So I haven't had vertigo for a long time.

Okay.

I'm almost completely deaf on this side and half deaf on this side. And I've had tinnitus in this side 15 years or whatever. But this is just to let you know. So I would have really loud tinnitus, but not. Not tinnitus that would like cause you to want to kill yourself, because some people do have that. And I just had a cochlear implant.

Oh, wow.

And the cochlear implant, which turned a deaf side into a kind of a hearing side, it really reduced the tinnitus. Now, I'm not suggesting you get an implant for this purpose, but all the stuff you read about, eat less salt, less caffeine, don't do this. Eat sweet and sour pig testicles, you know, drink more niacin, all that shit that you hear, you know, like all the woo woo stuff. But I tell you, cochlear implant really reduced the tinnitus. So if you ever lose your hearing, and you'll get a twofer, you'll get your hearing and you'll reduce the tinnitus.

If you ever do that, I am so happy I can finally stop eating sweet and sour pig testicles. Thank you. If I learned nothing else today, I learned I could stop eating those for breakfast. Damn, I've been hating those. See?

See, you would have never learned that talking to npr.

Exactly. They never give me any useful advice.

Thank you so much. It's just been so remarkably funny and interesting and all the best to you. And if I ever get to New Zealand again, man, I'm gonna look you up and we can go to Hobbiton together for my third times.

That would be wonderful. Cool. Thanks, guy. I appreciate it. Oh, and anybody listening to this, just go to my website and send me an email. It's one of my favorite things about what I do is getting emails from strangers every day. I just answer the emails that I get from everybody around the world. So send me an email and introduce yourself. I love that.

So that's Derek Sivers and I hope you learned the wisdom of trying many things. Guitarist, circus, ringleader, entrepreneur. Try lots of stuff and don't be proud. Remember, Derek's first paid gig was at a pig show. I wish I could tell you I made that rhyme on purpose. And then Plant many seeds. Do a lot of products, see what takes root. Those are just some of the lessons of the remarkable Derek Sivers. My thanks to Peg Fitzpatrick, Jeff C, Shannon Hernandez, Alexis Nishimura, Luis Magana, and the Drop In Queen of Santa Cruz, California. Incidentally, people have come up to me and said, what exactly is dropping in and why is Madison the Drop in Queen? Dropping in is a surfing term. It's when somebody else is on the wave already and it's his or her wave, but you drop in on that wave, getting in that person's way, it is considered poor form. Unless, of course, you're friends. And if you're friends, you purposely try to drop in. I mean, why surf with friends if you can't try to steal their waves? I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is remarkable. People. Look for Luis, Alexis, Madison and I surfing in Santa Cruz and be our guests. Drop in on us. Mahalo and aloha. Thank you to all our regular podcast listeners. It's our pleasure and honor to make the show for you. If you find our show valuable, please do us a favor and subscribe. Rate and review it. Even better, forward it to a friend. A big mahalo to you for doing this. This is remarkable. People.