Emma Isaacs, Entrepreneur, Author, and CEO of Business Chicks

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I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is Remarkable People. This episode's Remarkable guest is Emma Isaacs. She's the CEO of a woman's networking service that started in Australia and is now penetrating the rest of the world. I learned of her because of her book Winging it why Action Beats Planning Every Time. However, my first reaction to having her on the show was at best neutral, but honestly mostly negative because the name of her organization is Business Chicks. Yes, you heard that right. Business Chicks. I thought heads would explode if I interviewed the CEO of an organization called Business Chicks. But her members love the organization and probably even the name, because it is so wrong that it is right. In any case, who am I to pronounce judgment? Of course I asked her about the name and you'll respect her rationale. In any case, get past the name because she has a great deal of wisdom to offer women who want to succeed and who want to make a difference. This episode of Remarkable People is brought to you by Remarkable, the paper tablet company. Yes, you got that right. Remarkable is sponsored by Remarkable. I have version two in my hot little hands and it's so good. A very impressive upgrade. Here's how I use it. 1. Taking notes while I'm interviewing a podcast guest. 2. Taking notes while being briefed about a speaking gig. 3. Drafting the structure of keynote speeches. 4. Storing manuals for all the gizmos that I buy. 5. Roughing out drawings for things like surfboards, surfboard sheds. 6. Wrapping my head around complex ideas with diagrams and flowcharts. This is a remarkably well thought out product. It doesn't try to be all things to all people, but it takes notes better than anything I've used. Check out the recent reviews of the latest version. I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is Remarkable People. Now here is Emma Isaacs, the remarkable CEO of Business Chicks. Thank you for including a quote of mine in your book. I was flattered.

Yeah, of course.

Every once in a while you're reading along, you Say, oh, I said that.

That, smart guy.

Unless you put it only in my copy of the book. And I do, arguably, I would respect it even more if you. So my first question is, do you own a car that is a stick shift?

You have done your reading. I do not. I did not. I. I own an automatic vehicle which is large enough to house my 400 children. It's a soccer mom car. I. I never went back to the stick shift. But, yeah, thanks for the reference.

So now thousands of people are wondering, what the hell is I talking about? So maybe you can tell that story. That is a great story.

Yeah. So in my book, it. Which guy's referring to. I tell a story of having to go and visit a venue. I was scouting a venue for an event that we were going to produce, and I got on the plane, went interstate, got off the plane. I was on my laptop finishing off a pitch. I was on a phone call at the same time. I signed the paperwork for the car. The lady handed over the keys. I got to the parking lot and realized that it was a stick shift car, and I don't know how to drive those. But I thought, heck, you know what? I have two options here. I can give it a go and try work it out from watching people that I've been in their cars in the past, or I can go back and try and get another vehicle. So I chose the first option, and I basically taught myself how to drive that car over the course of the next 40 or so minutes, and I. I bunny hopped my way to that meeting, and I ultimately got it done. So, yeah, that's. I. What One little story of where I showed up and I was winging it the entire time.

It's not like getting off a boat at Ellis island with nothing but a suitcase. But, yeah, it is a very illustrative story of winging it. So now that we have an illustrative story, maybe you can define winging it for us.

Yeah. Yeah. So my backstory is that I'm what you might call a career entrepreneur. I've never actually worked for anyone else before. So that career teaches you a whole heap of skills, and it teaches you how to hustle like nobody else, you know, when you're not reliant on a paycheck and when you have no one but yourself to call upon, it teaches you a bunch of, you know, tactics and skills and shortcuts, if you like. So I had my first company when I was 18 years old. It was a recruitment company, so a staffing agency. We'd Put temporary and permanent staff into different businesses. And I led that company for seven years. We grew it into a really lovely small business. We won a host of business awards and built a really beautiful culture. After about seven years, I got the entrepreneurial itch. I started to think about what might be next. And I met a girl out one night just at a party, and she said, I've always wanted to travel to India. Have you? And I said, oh, I've always had that same thought. So the next. The very, very next morning, we went to a travel agency and we booked our flights to India and we backpacked there for three weeks and got to know each other and build a friendship in that time. And when I got back to my little apartment, I really just did some soul searching and realized I wanted to change things and shift things around. I ended up going to business chicks event. And like probably many of you and many of your audience guy, I thought, that is the worst company name I have ever heard in my entire life. It's insulting to women. It's, I'm a feminist, I'm an entrepreneur. I'm a serious businesswoman. I'm not going to anything that calls themselves anything Chicks. Terrible. And she said, you know, you need to get over yourself and you need to come along and experience this thing. So I went along to that event, and how I'd been able to build the first business was really through networking. More than anything was through building relationships and putting myself out there and trying to do favors for other people and build my circles. I was really surprised I hadn't heard of this networking group. I went, loved it, ran back to my recruitment company. I passed around my credit card. I said to all the women on my team, let's all become members here and let's get three tape tables at the next event. The next event came around. I heard the business was for sale. I was 25 at the time. But I ran up to the woman at the end and I said, I've never run an event before. I don't know how to run a membership organization. But I want to talk with you about this. Long story short, I ended up buying the business. And we started with 200 members. We now reach over 500,000 women across the globe. We just celebrated our 15 year in business, which is phenomenal. Pre covered, we were producing about 110 live events with up to 5,000 people attending them with speakers such as Sir Richard Branson, Arianna Huffington, Seth Godin, Liz Gilbert, Sarah Jessica Parker. You asked about winging it. I suppose My career has given me a unique perspective on building this amazing community of women. So I've definitely been able to see what holds them back and what propels them forward. And also being able to study and work alongside some of the world's most successful people. I've seen how, you know, they conduct themselves both on stage and off stage. And traveling with these people has given me a huge benefit and line of sight into how they do their business and do their life. And one of the common themes I started to find and see as I was writing this book is that these people don't necessarily have all the answers to the questions that are in front of them. They certainly do not have a perfectly architected plan. They certainly do not have some sort of roadmap that you and I don't have. But they have backed themselves into opportunities, and they have cultivated their confidence enough to start and to keep on going. So for me, when I sort of discovered these themes, I thought, that's what I've been doing or trying to do most of my life. I've been winging it. Right. And it, to me, winging it is just about having the confidence to go forth and progress without having all the answers that it's moving through uncertainty and trying to get into action. And action might not be as grand as starting a huge new business. You know, on a scale like Canva, it might not be buying a property development worth $50 million. It could be just writing the first sentence in a novel you've been wanting to write, or it could be picking up the phone to heal a relationship with someone that, you know needs healing. It's about action. So that's what we ing it means to me, and that's what I've tried to encapsulate in this book.

You just opened up so many cans out of world of opportunities in that one answer. We're going to go down several paths. Okay, so path number one is, why haven't you ever invited me to speak?

I know. I'm sitting here feeling guilty now.

Yeah, you should feel guilty. Okay, so I'm available for you. That's path number one. Okay. Path number two is going back to the name. I, too, had that initial reaction when you were first pitched to me. I said, why would I, you know, bring on a podcast, someone who runs an organization called Business Chicks? Because most of the women I know would just. Yeah, I don't even know. It would not be positive. Let's just say that.

Okay. Yeah.

So. So I. And now, obviously, you've stuck with it, you are aware of the negativity of it. Walk me through why you decided to stick with that name.

Yeah, there's a dichotomy to it and there's a depth to it that you cannot discover until you put in the work and go discover it. Right. So when, when I bought the business, it was only a couple of years old, but even then it started to get some traction in Australia and people had started to fall in love with not only the concept, but the culture and the, the spirit of the business. So I started to think, there's something there, there's a depth, there's an asset there that we shouldn't just throw out immediately. Right. And then I got into action and started building the community and started really growing it. And we grew across all the Australia and really started to build in a meaningful way. And then as time progressed, I realized there was more brand equity there. Fast forward 10 or so years and we have a huge, we have a huge following, we have a huge legacy in Australia and to throw that away would be very, very short sighted. So anyone who knows and has experienced the brand loves the brand. Therein lies a challenge for us because we need to find people and convince them enough to come and, you know, play with us. And once their foot is in the door of that event or once they've signed up for that mastercl, they will get it immediately. I like the challenge of having people, of proving people wrong. And I like the challenge. It makes it more interesting for me when people come and discover us and think, hang on a minute, this is actually a brand run by highly intelligent people that have a depth to what they do, who care deeply about the work that they do, that are changing the world in their own little way, that are making a huge impact. We've raised over $30 million for different nonprofits. I love that. And I don't mind that we perhaps offend a little. I don't mind that it takes some doing because discovery is so much more meaningful and it's a game. To me, business is a bit of a game. So, yeah, I don't know if that, if that helps explain it a little bit, but it's a pleasant surprise. It's a pleasant surprise when people discover us and give us a go.

Well, you would not forget it, that's for sure.

And listen, you, you know this better and, and you saw it in the book as well. It's like brands are not for everybody. And we have to understand that as business leaders, as entrepreneurs, what we do is not for Everybody. And that is completely cool, right? You people who love what you do. Not to get too philosophical on you, but I really, truly believe that people will find you when they're meant to. And we're not for everybody. I don't need to please everybody either. So that's a little bit about the backstory.

I really love this topic. Okay, so, yeah, I don't want you to think I'm obsessed with naming, but in the book, you discuss using a consulting firm to analyze these names.

Yeah.

So what's the lesson of using a consulting firm? Because at the end of the process, basically, didn't you ignore their advice?

Yeah, we did. So we engaged a branding agency here in the states, here in California, where I live, and we spent hundreds of thousands of dollars with these guys and they came up with hundreds of names and they just all felt a little twee or a little. It just didn't feel like us. So I. We did go through that whole process. We went through months and months of examination and, you know, them trying to head back to the drawing board and come up with other ideas and they just didn't feel like us. So ultimately I made the call at the end of that exercise to say, we haven't found it. We're just going to run with it. We're going to stick with what we know. We're going to back ourselves a little bit more. Because I think what we're doing is just, you know, forgetting to believe in ourselves and forgetting that we do have a 15 year legacy and forgetting that we have to dial up what makes us unique and amplify what makes us unique, rather than trying to bury that and attach to some other name that didn't have the same level of meaning. I don't know, you might, you might completely. You're the marketer here. You might not agree with me, but.

That was, that was the thinking I'm constantly learning. So if you could do it all over, if you were blank slate, you're thinking, okay, I'm going to start what business Chicks has become. Do you think you would have picked that name?

I probably wouldn't. I probably wouldn't have. But here's the thing. We started 15 years ago, before. Before Community was a business, right? Before anyone knew how to commercialize Community, before anyone knew how to sell memberships. It just wasn't being done back then. Like we were ahead of our time by accident, completely by accident, was no, no stroke of intelligence or brilliance on our behalf. But we started commercializing community 15 years ago and we started Signing members and building value and building a brand from there. So by the time, you know, I got to that exercise with the branding agency and they came up with hundreds of different names, there are thousands of women's communities out there. So let me tell you, I probably should have done it back then, but by now, most every amazing name that personifies what we do as a business is pretty much taken. So, yeah, I probably would have rewind the clock 15 years. I probably would have chosen a different name.

So I have another really tactical marketing question because it fascinates me that you are doing some things that are what I would not recommend. So here's another. Listen, I'm all about learning. My experience was that there is really no trial period. So you go to your website and if you want to do anything, you immediately ask for $97. It's not join for free for 30 days or come to one event for free or anything. It's 30 seconds later, put up or shut up and tell me about that decision.

Yeah, we probably need to change. That's probably a really beautiful piece of advice giving and coaching there. What I would say is this. We started the business in Australia and culturally it's very different to the States. Again, we have been able to garner a huge level of support and revenue from those marketing tactics in Australia that perhaps and probably need revising here in the States, where we're just getting started and just trying to get going. So in Australia, it's, yeah, it's culturally acceptable to have a commitment upfront. We see very little resistance to that. But again, in America, I'd say it's much more culturally accepted, whether it's Netflix or whatever, to have a trial period, Disney plus, whatever it is. So I'm going to take that coach piece of coaching advice and I'm going to call them up today. But, yeah, I mean, I mean, you raise a great point. And it's. It is constantly a challenge to figure out how to best talk with your audience and how to best work with them. And it's something that we definitely have been challenged with as we've tried to get the brand and the business off the ground here in the state.

First of all, I am not trying to position what I'm asking you as advice. Yeah, literally asking you what the decision process was. Because, you know, it may be that contrary to most people's assumptions, a trial period doesn't yield better results. And maybe you should make people put up or shut up. And I'm all about learning. And if that's the Right thing. What the hell do I know? I mean, go for it. Okay, so one more question I have along those lines. Not that I want you to think that I did a critique of your business, but I really did study. Okay? So on your about page is this sentence, business Chicks is Australia's largest and most influential community for women. Now when I read that, I said, so that's awfully confusing because if I were in any other country but Australia, I would read that. I say, oh, this is not for me, this is for Australian women. Did you just leave that by mistake or is that a plan too?

My guess is we left it there by mistake. My guess is yeah, we left it there by mistake. Yeah, that's great. I've got two action items already.

Unlike the consultants firm that you blew off, I'm not charging you anything. Okay, so my next question about Business Chicks is that networking organizations like that, there have been plenty of those in the valley, right? And intended for Indian entrepreneurs, intended for women entrepreneurs, intended for, you know, left handed GMO vegan entrepreneurs who were Birkenstocks. It's been sliced and diced 16,000 ways. And yet Business Chicks, despite the about page, despite the onboarding process, despite the name, has survived for 15 years. So to what? I mean, that's a remarkable record. To what do you attribute this? The surviving of 15 years?

Couple of things. So when I first bought the business, I realized very quickly that the business model was completely shot. There was no business model. Right. So I set to work alongside my team of interrogating that model and trying to diversify the revenue streams. Right. So we make money off of a few different business activities. We're talking about paid membership. A subscription model is one part of the business. We run a wonderful B2B part of the business. So partners and sponsors come and work alongside us. They see that we have an audience, we have a brand for women. So we partner with some of the largest brands in the world. We run a digital business, so we have digital content online every single day. We have digital events and obviously live events, events when the world opens up again. So really the diversification of revenue streams has what's fortified us and led to our growth. I think the innovation and the reinvention is something that we've really tried to work hard on. So every single year we can track, you know, new products we put to market. You're really trying to dial up shared experiences for our members and really trying to track their, their journey as a member as well. So we're constantly thinking, you know, Guy bought xyz, what's he's going, what's he going to buy next? What's his next next step in the user journey as a member? So I think in the business model, right, I think understanding our members and diversifying the different revenue streams and then it's really just about how do you engage your membership, how do you see people, how do you meet them at their needs, how do you be grateful for them coming along? As part of the journey, we've had members who have been with us for 12, 13, 14 years and renew every single year and come along to all different types of events and refer their friends and sign their company up for membership. So yeah, I think it's that, I think it's all those things. I think it's constantly about being a brand that's exciting and trying to lift the bar every single year if you like. So trying to come up with new and exciting programs and curation. So I think it's all of those things and from a business perspective that's the customer facing stuff. From a business perspective, we've definitely built a really solid infrastructure. For the last 15 years, I've been really trying to fortify the business. We're in a really great cash position, I haven't diluted my equity. I'm still the 100% shareholder in the business. So we've got a really, really strong bas and a really great reputation to work from. So I think, you know, this year's been interesting to see quite a few communities fall to the wayside because they were flimsy, they were just running to the next sponsorship deal or the next event or whatever it was. But we've really tried to build a really solid foundation that's really equipped us and kept us strong this year, certainly as the pandemic's played out.

Speaking of pandemics, so from the outside looking in, if someone had said to me, so our organization focuses on in person networking for women or chicks, I would have said the pandemic is going to kill you. So what are you doing? What happened?

So we first did we tried to have the first mover advantage. When the pandemic hit, we called an emergency meeting and said, listen, here's how this is going to go. I mean we have firstly, we have no idea how this is going to go, but this is how it's going to go for us. And what we did, I said we need to get a digital event up online like tomorrow, right? And the events team looked at me and said we don't know how to do that. We don't know what software we need to use, we don't know what platform to use. We need a couple of weeks and we need two or three weeks to work this out. And I'm like, we don't have two or three weeks. We need to have an event live on the site in the next couple of days. So I called in favors from five or six of my friends who are speakers over the years, and I said, will you speak for us? And they all said, absolutely, no problem. And while we were branding it, while we were selling tickets, while we were getting things off of the ground, they were working out the tech in the background. Right. So really, really trying to reverse engineering that thinking. And what that did was position us as people who and a brand who had their stuff together. And it really positioned us to run a digital events business during that time. So how that played out was we have been producing three master classes every single week. There's a huge engine that needs to be turned on to make that happen. But we've really tried to meet the community with the content that they need, with the support they need, with the connection they need, running virtual meetups, running mastermind groups, and really just trying to, yeah, Be there for them throughout this time. Have we made a ton less money from the exercise? Absolutely. But my CEO and I sat down at the start of the pandemic and said, who do we want to be remembered for? Or what do we want to be remembered for during this time? Who do we want to show up as? And we've really said that we want to be there for our members, we want to support them. And so far, so good. It's really paid off.

Getting off business chicks for a little bit. And going to a broader topic.

Yeah.

What are the current conditions facing women entrepreneurs today?

Look, I think we are working in a great time in that there's been a lot of more air time for female entrepreneurs. I think the media loves a story about a wonderful female entrepreneur. So that can only stand us in good stead. But we still are challenged and played with some of the I says problems or challenges that have been around for decades. You know, it's access to capital, it's access to having the right people on the team, the right investor base. It's access to networks. I often tell a story, I remember probably about 10 years ago now, I was at a holiday dinner and there happened to be six of us there, three guys, three women, and we're all entrepreneurs. And at some point during that dinner I remember just listening in to the guys who were on the other side of the table and they were telling a story about the properties that invested, the property deals that invested in that year, the startups that invested in the companies they had backed. And they were just having a general sort of investment talk. And I was listening to one and I said to my two girlfriends on this side of the table who are well seasoned entrepreneurs with resources and very successful businesses, hey, listen, at any point during the past year have these guys offered you into any of these deals? Have they picked up the phone or sent you an email to say, hey, do you want to invest? And I'm talking, these are serious businessman. One was on Shark Tank for many years, the other has a 50 or 60 million dollars business. They're the real deal. And they said no, at no point have the guys ever come in on this deal with us. So I, I turned to them and I said, hey, just, you know, learnings. We would love to be given the phone call, we would love to be given the email. Will you think of us next time? And there was no, they weren't trying to be difficult, they weren't trying to be nasty. They just had never thought to invite the women into those conversations. So I think, you know, that is still happening a little bit. And so I think access and networks are really, is really the key thing that's plaguing most female entrepreneurs is okay.

Those are external factors. What about internal factors? What about what's inside of women's heads? Yeah, preventing them?

Yeah, that's a good question. I, you know, it's hard for me to answer that. I mean, obviously from my position of consulting with tens of thousands of our members every single year, I see fear holds people back. There's still this idea that they're scared to try new things. There's a sense of having excuses that I wouldn't do things when I have the money or when I finish my degree or when kids have left to go to college or when I have the knowledge. So those sort of self limiting beliefs are definitely holding people back and particularly women. So I'd say fear, I'd say excuses and this idea of having to look a certain way and having to. I think women are conditioned a lot of the time to have to put forward an image of perfectionism. Right. Like they won't attempt something unless they get it right. And I'm a recovering perfectionist. You know, I am the eldest of three kids. I did really well at all competitive sports and had some success from very early Age. So I'm a recovering perfectionist and, and now I try and advocate that women subscribe to the same sets of philosophies. But yeah, I think there some of the things, fear, self limiting beliefs and, and really trying to do things, you know, perfectly each and every time.

Do you think men suffer from those issues?

I, I don't see it at the same sort of level. I don't see it at the same sort of level. I mean if I had to add a fourth, I'd probably add guilt. For any woman out there who's trying to balance a family and start something or scale a business. Young kiddos under the age of 11. My role model in this, my mentor is my husband because I'm always turning to him and either asking him or looking at him and saying, do you ever feel guilty? And he's like, nah, this does not come into his orbit. So I think they're uniquely gendered in varying degrees. I really do. I don't think men experience those same sort of limits as women do. What do you think?

I think they're 180 degrees opposite. They're clueless. They, men are clueless about this and yeah, don't get me started.

But.

So I'd like you to describe, let's say there are young women listening to this and what is the mindset that you would hope they would develop to become leaders?

That's a great question. I'd say the first thing that needs to be cultivated is a mindset of courage. And when I say that, the courage to speak up when you see something that you don't agree with or the courage to speak up when you have an idea. We all know the stats when it comes to even just talking in meetings. Men dominate 75% of the airtime and women have to pick up the remaining, excuse me, 25%. So I think having the courage to, to speak up and put forth ideas is a really key thing. You have to excuse my three children being virtual school in the background and doing a very good job at being so diligent.

These are the times we live in, Guy.

The courage to put forth ideas and speak up is definitely a mindset, I think, and I talk about it in the book, a leadership mindset. I'd like to see more leaders stepping into is definitely having an attitude of vulnerability and being able to admit when you don't have the answers and being able to admit when you make mistakes. So I think the world's best leaders definitely have a mindset of vulnerability and I think risk Taking, I think any great leader is someone who can step forward into the uncertainty and take risks and encourage their people to come along for the ride. And I, I, that's something that I've been trying to do my entire career with my team constantly saying, hey, we can do better here, let's try this, let's try that. You know, it's really trying to, and step into areas that we've never stepped into before. And that's, yeah. So I'd say, say they're the three things.

What are the genders of your six kids?

The first three are girls. So imagine that I've got three girls and a little guy, then a girl and then my six month old is a, a boy. So four girls, two boys.

You are going to be busy.

Let me tell you that.

Okay, so looking at it from a mom's perspective, a business leader mom, what are you trying to do differently to raise your daughters into leaders? And maybe you can contrast this to how you were raised. So are you doing something different for them that will make them into kick ass women?

Yeah, it's, it's, this is the nurture versus nature debate. Right. And one of my great men mentors taught me very early on in my parenting journey that you can do whatever the heck you like with these children, but pretty much how they come out, the little personalities as babies and toddlers and young children is how they're going to be when they're 40 or 60 years old. Right. So our job is to guide and to lead. I'm trying to, I'm trying to role model, right. I'm just trying to role model the behaviors that I would want them to show. I'm trying to be kind to every single person I meet in the world in the hope that kindness will be picked up by them. I'm trying to put role models in front of them. So I try and fill home with interesting people who roll diverse walks of life so that they can understand that the neighborhood in which we live is not representative of the whole world. Travel is a big thing. I'm just trying to give them a really well rounded experience. I'm sure I'm failing every single day, but I'm doing my best. And it's, it's very, very different to the childhood that I was raised in. My parents are the most wonderful, beautiful people you'll ever meet. And they're still married. I was gonna say happily married. I'm not sure about how happily married, but they'. Sorry mom.

I hope they, I hope they listen to this Podcast.

I had a very sort of lower middle class upbringing. We never have had any money, which is probably a blessing to, to be honest because it caused me to want to move out of that and to search for a bigger life. Very suburban and was largely white and, and heterosexual. And it's not what I want for my kids. I want my kids to know that they live, live in a global, it's a global space.

The great temptation from the outside looking in when looking at you is to say, oh, so she's running this successful business, she's written a book, she's highly visible, she has six kids, she has it all. So she must have these secrets of parenting and mothering that she can explain to me.

Now.

My impression of reading your book is that you basically say, say I have no freaking idea and I'm making it up as I go, so don't look at me for advice. So is that an accurate interpretation of what you do in the book?

It's an accurate summary. Listen, everything we've spoken about up until this point circles back to this whole idea that mindset is what matters. We certainly do try and have a light touch when it comes to parenting. We are not helicopter parents that are sort of, you know, buzzing over the top and where are, where are you now? And what are you doing? And we are quite free range like that. And I think that, you know, that allows you some space when you're not hovering and stressing and worrying about every conceivable detail. So there's that. I am a very, very calm person. I think that's probably the Australian in me. I try and become all the time and be comfortable in the chaos. And apart from that, I've got nothing for you. I mean, it's, it's.

No, that stays in.

I know. What can I say? I mean, it's a challenge that set for ourselves and we try and attack everything, whether this is business or our family, with a sense of lightness, a sense of humor, a sense of fun, a sense of adventure. And at the end of the day, I can't complain about it because we created this ourselves, right? We brought it upon ourselves. So we, you know, it's, it's a really fun household. It's, you know, I mean, the kids, don't get me wrong, they're often bashing each other over the head with some sort of implement and fighting all day or screaming and I'm often in the closet rocking in the corner. But it's, it's fun. It's fun. And what else is Is there?

Most people believe that less is more, but it could be that more is less. Yeah, I mean once you've gone from man to man or double teaming to zone, to use basketball analogies. Yeah. Life gets easier in a sense.

So yeah, it's true. My, my big girl is 11 now and the 11 year old, the 9 year old, they do help out, they change diapers, they get the baby up from the crib there. So it is a bit of a, bit of a 10. Same kind of situation. It's a lot of fun.

There are some thoughts in the book that I want to ask about in greater depth. So there's an attitude of fake it till you make it, wing it, say yes to everything and figure it out. You ever regret that? Have you ever said yes and then, oh my God, I never should have said yes. That was a mistake.

No, never. No, I haven't. Because, and I'll give you an example, when we decided to launch the business into the United States and how that came about was I was sitting on Necker island and it's not to name drop, but I was having breakfast. It's an interesting origin story.

Yeah, yeah. Like, yeah, I was at Necker island and I said, Richard, how was kite serving with Barack?

Oh, and by the way, I know, I know, I know, that would have been amazing. I wasn't, I wasn't there that way, unfortunately. He just said this thing. He was, Richard said, we were talking about business in Australia and he said, is it even possible to make money in a country as small as Australia? And that kind of punched me in the gut. And I thought, wow, for him, his whole outlook is he makes money off of his businesses in the States and Europe and Australia to him is this tiny little country that floats in the ocean down there, so it's impossible to make money there. And so that kind of planned a little seed for me and I went back to Australia and I said to my leadership team, we should explore, explored doing something more here. So we started doing these discovery trips back and forth to the us Ended up launching a bunch of events in New York and San Fran and Los Angeles. And we had 6, 700 women in a room. And it was really phenomenal. Got back to Australia, my husband said to me, that looked amazing. Would you ever consider moving to the States? And the thought of that completely petrified me. So I said, okay, yep, let's do it. Six months later, we're on a plane. We had the four young kids we'd landed in, in Los Angeles where we, we now live. It was. The experience of being here was fraught. We didn't know where to live. We had no credit. So we bought this huge house at a 12% interest rate like it was just a very, very, very stressful time. And you asked the question, did I. Do I regret it? I do not regret it because the amount of learning and the uptick in challenge and just depth of experience that that has taught us, us is irreplaceable in life. Right. So had I had all the knowledge in the beginning, had I had all the answers, had I had all the data, I would not have made that decision. So no, I don't regret it. I. You can't regret those learnings. It's impossible to do that. So, yeah, my answer is a firm no.

Similar question you also advocate for in this winging it concept. Have you ever done something, something with insufficient planning or research and regretted it?

I mean, I suppose the mistakes that I have made in business are where I have lost focus. It's where I have diluted my focus and tried to do too many things at once. And I certainly have done that trying to start businesses on the side where my passion was not there, where I. Yeah, I just, it took me off of my game. It. I'm a very focused person. So there's lessons in trying to do too many things and spread yourself too thin. Absolutely. I regret those too times. Yep.

But that's not necessarily because you didn't do enough research.

Yeah. What is that? That's more about, I suppose, choosing your business wisely. And it's about understanding your unique skill set and your unique, I suppose, passions. And it was just a case of. Yeah. Not focusing intently enough and choosing businesses that didn't interest me as much as the one that I was in and have been for a long time.

Third question along those lines, and I will tell you right now, I fully expect that I will get a handful of emails from women who are going to say, guy, you are such a male chauvinist pig. You asked her these negative questions that you never ask any other guests. Okay. So I know that's of kind coming and I hope those people who are going to write to me listen to what I just said because I expect this. But some of the stuff you say in the book are counterintuitive to me. So if a man had written that book and said the same things, I just want you to know I would have asked the same questions. Okay, so the third question is there's a part of the book where you talk about don't listen to naysayers, don't listen to experts they don't know. Follow your dream, follow your heart, it's, etc. So do you take anybody's advice at all?

Yeah, yeah, of course I do. Of course I do. The part of the book I think you're referring to here is when I wanted to buy the business. Chicks business. And it felt right, you know, every single cell in my body was activated. I felt like this was an opportunity I wanted to explore. I felt like it was something that I wanted to know more about. And so I went and had that conversation with that woman at the end of the event I told you about and got really exc. And then started to do all my due diligence. I engaged a management consultant who said to me, there is no business in this women thing. Stick to what you already have. I spoke to my parents who said, oh, Emma, you already have a profitable business, it's doing really well. Why would you go and buy this one? I listened to a few friends who told me it was the wrong idea. But really, when I dropped into my gut and I listened to my body and I listened to what I wanted to do, I knew it was the right decision. So, yes, I did throw away that advice I was given. But no, of course I take advice. Of course I do. I mean, I think you just have to be. You just have to be cautious with who you take advice from. And I think you have to also understand that instinctual leading and instinctual leadership is a really important thing to listen to. And when something feels right to you, you should honour that. You should follow it up and try and avoid the negative advice.

I want you to note that the only piece of advice I really am giving you in this interview is that you check the about page where it says it's Australia's network. Okay. Okay. I think that is a confusing statement. That's the only piece of advice I'm giving you. Okay. Another piece of advice, this would be inferred piece of advice is that you dropped out of college. You don't seem to have regretted that and I would like to know your, with hindsight, your thoughts about, should you have completed college, would it be a good thing? Would it have been a good thing? Should people listening to this who are younger in high school or college think, oh, she dropped a out, I'll drop out, or what's your take on college?

Yeah, I think it largely depends on what sort of raw talent you have. And when you say that, it's. It's not as if I've spent my entire life educating myself, right? And the paths to education can come in so many different formats. And even back then, when I dropped out of university and only lasted in college for six months because I did want to get on my way, I wanted to roll up my sleeves, I wanted to get stuck in. I wanted to make some money. Back then I was reading two or three business books a listening to every single. Back then it was cassettes. It wasn't DVDs or anything else. It was cassettes in the car. And I would listen to all these greats, the Napoleon Hills and the Tony Robbins and the. All of those seminal books. So I got my education from other places. You know, I go to every single seminar, I go to every single conference, I go to workshops. I stalk people until they become my mentor. So it wasn't as if I turned off the education because I stopped college. And these days, colleges teach entrepreneurship. I fundamentally believe that you can learn skills of entrepreneurs. So do I regret it? Absolutely not. Will that be the path for everyone? Absolutely not. But there is a strength to questioning the status quo that we have to go to college. There's a strength and a power in interrogating that and in being curious about it. Because I think what a lot of people do is we just are on autopilot and we do the thing that everyone else does because it's a thing we've been told we have to do. So I think it just takes some introspection and weighing up the options. But you should never, ever stop learning. That's the point. Your education is all around you, and you should invest in that for sure.

So if one or more of your six kids says, mom, college is not.

For me, you say, okay, yeah, I'm prepared for this. Obviously, I talked about role modeling and my husband is an entrepreneur as well. We met through the Entrepreneurs organization many, many, many years ago. And he followed a similar education path. And, well, it's held him back a lot. It hasn't helped me back. No, I'm just kidding. I've got three people who can never listen to this podcast.

You're reduc.

The audience is drinking.

You mentioned Tony Robbins and Napoleon Hill. Did you read Robert Kiyosaki Rich dad for that?

Of course. Absolutely. Such. Such foundational books for me. I started my first company when I was 18. I bought my first investment property when I was 19. The day I bought my first investment property, I set a goal to buy 10 investment properties. And I remember going home to mum and Dad's house on the day I signed the papers of my 10th investment property. And my mum still looked at me and said, oh, that's great, Emma, but when are you going to your degree? She's just. They're never going to get over it, right? I think to this day they still. It's just so ingrained in them that.

That is. That is a. I. I'll tell you a related.

You.

You'll appreciate the humor of this. So I know this Apple employee or ex Apple employee, and his parents wanted him to be a doctor, lawyer or debt dentist, but instead he went into tech, very successful at Apple. So one of his functions at Apple was to work with the celebrities and bring them on board and this kind of stuff. So he was working with Dr. Dre. So he tells his mom, yeah, you know, I'm working with Dr. Dre on a project with Apple. And his mom said, finally, you're hanging around with doctors. And while I'm telling you stories, since you read Rich Dad, Poor Dad, I'll tell you a Kiyosaki story, who is a friend of mine. So I can't tell you how many times it's happened that people come up to me, Emma, and they say, your book changed my life. I had no direction, I had no path. And then I read your book and it set me on the right path to success. So my first question to them is, which of my 15 great books did you read that set you up on the right path? And they say, rich dad, Poor Dad. And it's not even my freaking book that they're attributing.

I hope you just nod and smile.

Well, welcome to my life. So another of your themes, that this is kind of a sporadic interview.

It's all over the top. I love it.

Yeah.

All right.

I intuit from your writing and from what I've seen is that I'll ask it in a neutral way, not that I don't suspect I know the answer, but do you think that balance is.

Yeah, I do. I mean, I think. I think the construct, the idea of balance is totally bullshit. And I can say that because when I think of work life balance, I just. Just think of this poor person standing there with these two scales and they've got to be tipped absolutely perfectly every single day. Right. And it's infallible. Like it's completely flawed to think that we can have them tipped equally in perfect equilibrium every single day. Right. So I have always tried to not ask those questions, like, am I balanced? It's really. I think what people are trying to say to you when they want more work life balance, they just want to have more life in their life. Right. They just want to want to do the things that light them up. They want to have the energy to complete the tasks and do the hobbies that they enjoy. So, yeah, for me, I never, ever try and chase this elusive kind of goal of work life balance. I'm just constantly thinking, do I need to work a little less? Do I need to be at home a little more? And I'm just constantly evaluating and asking those questions. So, yeah, it's. For me, the construct or the idea of work life balance is something that keeps us all, all in a place and keeps us feeling less than, you know, and it's different for everyone, right? It's different for you. What balance means for you is completely different for me. And I think also what happens is we've come full circle and we've made it uncool for people to want to work hard and want to strive for more. And, and these are all the things that I used to do, you know, as a kid, like from an 18 year old, I would work 8, 16 hours a day, and I love that. And it actually energized me. But these days, the kids, they just want to work three hours a day and sit on a beach and make their millions and, and it's just by my way of thinking, it's not entirely possible. So, yes, I do believe balance is.

B. I will say that my analysis of my life, I'm 66 right now, is that at the start of my career, I was overworked and underpaid. And now at this point in my career, I'm overpaid and underworked. So it all evens up.

Yeah, I love that. I love that.

I have often told people that I am living proof that if you do one thing right in your life, evangelize McIntosh, you can coast for about 40 years on that one thing.

Leverage, my friend.

That's right. I am, I am loud and proud about that. So I'm sure that people will be inspired by this. So they would be interested in what books or people inspire you, Emma?

Yeah, great. I'm inspired by I. The mavericks of our time. And I love this idea. I'm actually writing my second book right now, and it's why I've been knee deep in research around what makes great cultures great. And I'm really into this idea that companies need mavericks inside of them. You know, you call them entrepreneurs or mavericks. And what I see a lot of businesses doing is trying to silence those mavericks and trying to, you know, quieten them because they're hard to manage. But that's, I believe, where a lot of the innovation happens. So I'm inspired by mavericks. So people. People like Elon Musk and Branson and Jobs and yourself and anyone who has really tried to do things differently, it upsets me that I'm not naming any women among that group. But if you did, if you did a Google search on Mavericks, you come up with those three names. And actually, funnily enough, I was like, female mavericks the other day when I was doing my research and it came up with my name. So I was like, there you go. That proves a little point there. There we go. But from a female perspective, I love people like Diane von Fursten. I think she's just a phenomenal woman of style, and I've been very blessed to work alongside her. And she's a phenomenal operator. Arianna Huffington inspires me. Just say what?

Martha Stewart?

Yeah, yeah. I don't know as much about Martha Stewart as the other ones. I've never worked alongside her before. I suppose the people who inspire me are the people who have strength of character, both on stage and off stage. Liz Gilbert is a perfect example of that. She's just such. They are their word and they are who they say they are off stage because it's very, very easy to put on a performance. But when you come off stage and show up as a person that you are, that's really inspiring to me. So there's some of the people that.

Yeah, well, I. I would add Jacinda. I don't know her last name. Yeah, From New Zealand.

Oh, Adam. Yeah. Yep. Sure. She's just being reelected.

I mean, you know, she implements gun control in a few months, and she shuts down the pandemic. I mean, and many people who are negative or neutral about her, they say, well, it's easy. It's New Zealand. There's not many people. It's a small country. But I guarantee to you, if Donald Trump was running New Zealand.

Let'S just.

Say things would not be all great there.

Yeah, yeah.

It's not the size of the island.

Yeah, for sure. She's a phenomenal leader and she's got to be inspiring. She's a young woman. She's. I don't think she turned 40 yet. I'm not even sure if she's turned 40. And she has a. She's running a young family and running a country. She's clearly inspiring. Whether you believe whether you, you know, subscribe to her politics or not, she's inspiring. Of course.

Okay, last question. How do you come up with new ideas?

Yeah, I think, you know, what's been really useful for me is perspective and getting out of the day to day. So when I need to, not that I have ever need to innovate, but innovation comes for me when I am outside of my office, when I take myself off to the Honolulu for a couple of weeks, which I haven't done obviously for a long time, when I take myself out of my day to day. So I always know if I'm getting stale, if things are getting routine, I need to get some perspective and take myself out of that day to day. So that's where generally I find inspiration comes from. My find, it comes from, hey, hanging around with super smart people and highly successful people. I think it comes from, yeah, just stretching yourself, like again, even just going to Necker Island. The fact of doing that broadens your thinking and makes you think differently. So hanging around with people from different backgrounds and going to different places is the way I certainly find inspiration and get new ideas.

I, I wish I had done this interview with you nine months ago because around the that time I got to know Sir Ken Robinson who lives in la and you would have loved him. I would have put the two of you together. He was truly remarkable person.

You asked the question about regrets. We had been speaking with him for many years and he was committed to speaking for us in Australia. And it's such a loss for the human race. I didn't know him personally, but I knew his work and a phenomenal human leaving a huge legacy.

He was a neighbor of yours.

Yeah. I didn't know that.

Yeah, it would have been easy. It would have been easy. You could have gone to the restaurant in the Getty.

Yeah.

A wonderful time. Yeah, so is. I once interviewed a New York Times investigative reporter who wrote about the Boko Haram. She was not the society page of New York Times. This, this was a kick ass report. And because she's a kick ass reporter, I asked her if you got any interview tips for me as a podcaster. And she said one of the things she always did was at the end of an interview, she would ask the person, is there anything that I did not ask you? So I'm asking you, is there anything I did not ask you that I should have asked you now the question and answer it.

You did great. We covered a lot of ground. I felt like I was under interrogation a few times. There was wonderful. I am equipped to go and look into a few things that I can improve in my business. Like I've had a personal coaching session which I am very grateful for. Listen, no, I, I love talking about empowering people and empowering particularly women. I, I think we could do another podcast on financial independence and wealth creation and, and maybe we can do that with your dear friend. But I think we covered a lot of ground. Next time we'll talk a lot more about money and, and how to create some wealth in a different way to you, which is just.

If you have a short answer, how to create wealth, I'm all ears. Go ahead, tell us.

Yeah, no, it's one of the things I'd say to your younger audience is start early if you can. And start where you are though. Right. It's like one of the things I started doing at this. I've always had this self limiting belief that I know a lot about property, I know a lot about business, I can make money through those two vehicles. But I don't know anything about the stock market. So I'd been telling myself that for years. At the start of the pandemic, I thought I need to educate myself and get onto this thing. So I downloaded one of the apps and I've been trading the share market ever since. I'm doing really well from it. So I just think it's about again all these themes of starting educating yourself, getting a circle of people and advisors around you that you actually want to listen to too. There's some of the recipes for a really full and fun life. So take that or leave that.

I'll take it.

Good.

Thank you so much. A joy. Such a joy. I'm gonna check that about page every day to see.

I refreshed. I wanna, I wanna.

And I'm gonna forward you the email from people who say, why were you.

So tough on her?

You're not tough on your ma.

That. Okay, send them my way.

It's gonna happen. I'm gonna. Okay, I'm gonna send them to you and you're gonna respond for me.

Okay, perfect.

I hope you enjoyed this interview of Emma Isaacs, CEO of Business Chicks. As I said, she has a lot of great advice and one of the things that I've noticed in interview after interview is that people tell me, you, you have got to learn to fake it until you make it. Or in Emma's words, wing it. That's the most important lesson I think you could take from this interview. Learn how to wing it. Learn how to fake it until you make it. I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is the Remarkable People podcast. It's made Remarkable by Jeff C. And Peg Fitzpatrick. Until next time. You know what I'm gonna tell you. Wash your hands. Don't go into crowded places. Wear a mask. Oh, I saw a great parody, and I am not a singer, but there are a few lines from this parody that are just stuck in my head. And the lines go, wear a mask. Wear a mask. Get your head out of your ass. Get your head out of of your ass. Wear a mask. Until next time, mahalo and aloha. This episode of Remarkable People is brought to you by Remarkable, the paper tablet company. This is remarkable people.