Gaelin Rosenwaks: A Lifelong Fascination with Ocean Giants

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I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is remarkable people. We're on a mission to make you remarkable. And today we are going to have a whale of a good time. Because helping me in this episode is Galen Rosenwax. She's a marine scientist, explorer, photographer and filmmaker. She began her career researching zooplankton overwintering patterns at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute. When Galen was a toddler, a young sperm whale who had fallen ill beached himself on the shores of Long Island, New York. Galen visited this whale daily with her mother and brother. Like Jane Goodall, this was the beginning of a lifelong dedication to animals. She has participated in and led expeditions worldwide. Antarctic, Arctic, Pacific, Atlantic Oceans. She's been there. She's a U.S. coast Guard licensed captain and fellow of the Royal Geographical Society. She's a member of the Explorers Club and Society of Women Geographers. Her book Sperm Whales, the Gentle Goliaths of the Ocean is something to behold, especially at a mere $50. I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is remarkable people. And now here's the remarkable Galen Rosenwax. We begin with an update on that whale from Long Island, New York, many years ago. The whale's name is Feisty. Give us an update on Feisty. Have you found him again? Have you seen him again? Do you know what's happening with Feisty?

No, I have not found him again. Of course, I've been looking for big male sperm whales in many different parts of the world. Now, I think to find actually Feisty the whale himself would be very difficult. But certainly I've been in the water with large male sperm whales. The most amazing thing about male sperm whales is they're pretty solitary creatures. So he could really be in any ocean anywhere in the world because they do go between the oceans. So most likely he's up in the Arctic or off of our coast here in New York, but sort of a needle in a haystack to find that individual whale. That said, also, he was so young when he stranded that he only had one scar on the base of his tail and he was 4 years old. And now he would be in his 40s, so probably it'd be a much smaller scar, so he would be hard to recognize. However, I love the idea of possibly stumbling upon Feisty one day when I'm in the water with those sperm whales or looking for them here where we can't get in the water, but we can see them from boats and from drones and things. But I have been in the water with large male sperm whales and they are a sight to behold. So hopefully Feisty is somewhere in the ocean swimming around. So it's pretty amazing.

I have to ask you what seems like a dumb question, but when everybody was taking care of him, why didn't you guys tag?

I was just a toddler when this happened, so I was not part of the rescue. I was just one of the grateful onlookers to have this glimpse at this wild, huge creature. So he wasn't tagged, I think, for a few different reasons. One, it was 1981, so there wasn't much tagging technology like we have today. So any tag that they would have put on him would have been more of acoustic telemetry tag. So it would certainly no longer be functioning today just because of batteries alone. And you would have actually had to chased him around with a receiver to know where he was going. So it would have been a much shorter term tag. Certainly on a mammal, we're not going to put some sort of marker tag on him that would be permanent. So that was the other thing. And then also just I think in the fray of the rescue and trying to get him released, because he was named Feisty for two reasons. One, because of his scientific name being Feisted or Macrocephalus, so it's a shortened version. And then because he was Feisty the adjective. And so with Feisty the adjective, you can see that they're not going to want to keep a 24 foot whale in captivity if he is getting a little bit more rambunctious. So they needed to get him away before they could figure out the tagging situation.

And if this happened today, would he be tagged and how would that tag operate?

I ask myself the question of what would happen to him today. Quite often, especially as I've been reflecting on it and talking more about him, and I've seen other animals strand and be alive and to be honest with you, I don't know if they even would have attempted the rescue like they did, because when they brought him into captivity. They had never attempted anything like this before, and they dragged him by his tail into the boat basin, which now you wouldn't be allowed to do. And they really thought it was going to be a necropsy. Certainly. I would love to think that they would bring him in and try to figure out what was wrong and get him better. I do think more likely they would have euthanized him in today's world. Unfortunately, however, if they did bring him in, get him better, everybody rallied around a whale like that today. They would use some sort of suction cup technology to tag him with satellite telemetry, and it could stay on him for, I think, a few months, probably not much longer, and then we could know a little bit more about him. Certainly satellite tags can survive now with battery power for up to a few years. So that is a possibility. However, because we wouldn't actually surgically implant them on the sperm whale, would most likely fall off sooner.

Can I ask you a somewhat insensitive question? Is there a point where you read these stories like $5 million has been spent rescuing this whale. Do you say to yourself, it's probably better for whales and wildlife that we take that 5 million and put it to use other ways than saving one whale? Or is it just that never comes up?

I think that in today's world, it certainly would come up as a question. I think in 1981, with Feisty, it wasn't a question. Everybody was volunteering, everyone was so excited to get up close with sperm whales, which really before that point, it was really only whalers who were set out to kill them getting this close. So it was a really rare glimpse to see this whale up close in this closed contained tank oat basin. So I think in that case it was 100% worth it to bring him in because really no one had been this close to a live male sperm whale other than the whaler. So we had so much to learn from this whale then. And I do think that there's a point to spending money to try to save these animals for a few different reasons. One, we learn a lot about the creature, seeing it up close and having it in a temporary captive situation because clearly he was ill. They brought him in and then they set him free, much like we do with turtles and other wildlife now. I think also because it ignites people to care when they see that we can help these animals. I think it really gets people involved in a story that connects them to the ocean in a way they otherwise may not have. Tens of thousands of People saw Feisty. And the amazing thing to me IS now, still 40 years later, I get notes from people who read my story and they say, I remember seeing Feisty. It was so impactful on my life. I looked at everything so differently. He looked at me, we connected. I went with my grandfather, I went with my wife. I remember when they set him free and everybody was cheering and it made everybody look at wildlife in the ocean differently. So I think in that regard, it's very much money well spent. Because otherwise, how do you really rally people to connect with the ocean? I think you and I both connect with the ocean and care about the ocean for our own reasons. But many people don't feel that connection, and it's a way to get them to connect.

We've had Jane Goodall on this podcast two or three times, and in a sense, Feisty is the equivalent of the chimpanzee that Jane Goodall first befriended, or the chimpanzee that first trusted Jane Goodall. I saw a lot of parallel parallels in the story there.

I think that whenever there's a human connection to wildlife, it's extremely special. And I do think that it becomes a conduit to looking at the ocean and animal life in a different way. So I really appreciate that parallel, and for so many reasons, of course, because Jane is such a hero of mine and I grew up reading all of her books and everything. But, you know, I do really think that seeing how an animal interacts in the wild with a human is so unique. And sperm whales, I think in particular, because they are mammals and they have the largest brain of any animal on the planet, in particular, do have this curiosity towards people, whether it was feisty who allowed them, allowed the scientists to work on him, or the whales that I get to spend time with in the ocean, that show a genuine curiosity towards me.

So, taking us back, why were they hunted? What were people trying to get out of whales? I mean, if you're telling me it's for oil or something, surely there's an easier way to get oil than going out into the ocean and killing whales.

No, when they were killing whales, it was for oil. It was how we illuminated the streets. It's what we had before we started drilling, before we had the oil rush. Really. It was whales. Killing whales powered the planet, it powered industry, it powered our lamps. It was a great lubricant, especially sperm whales, the spermaceti in sperm whales heads, they would make smokeless candles from it and lubricants for machines. Still, there's rumors that Certain really fine machinery is still using spermaceti oil for the lubrication, but they really did power the world. So now we're talking about transitioning away from oil into all of our renewables and different resources. But before that, we were transitioning from killing whales to using fossil fuel oil. What do you think about it?

I guess in one sense at least, it's better than killing whales, I guess you could say.

I would definitely agree with that statement. Whales are so incredibly intelligent. They're so similar to us. They're mammals, they take care of their young, and it's pretty crazy to think that anybody would kill them. But at the same time, back then, nobody knew any better. Right. So we can only judge what we know and what we knew at that time. But I'm certainly glad we stopped killing them.

Have we stopped completely? There's no nation in the world that hunts sperm whales now.

No one is targeting sperm whales. However, there are a few nations that do hunt whales. They aren't hunting them for oil, they're hunting them for meat, primarily. So Japan, Norway and Iceland all still hunt whales, along with some indigenous tribes on a more artisanal level. But industrial whaling is still going on. In fact, just this week they approved quotas in Iceland for killing whales. And Japan has already killed quite a few whales this year. It's unfortunate. I think now we do know better, and so we really need to rally to stop this whale hunt that they've been doing. And on the artisanal scale, I don't really have a problem with it, because then it's more of a tradition. And the tribes that are doing it use every piece and every little morsel of that whale, and it's keeping their tradition culture alive. Whereas with the industrial whaling, there's just absolutely no excuse for it.

And isn't a species of whale. Is it minke or minky? Is it minke? Yeah. So if a minke whale is first, I have to ask, is that a threatened species? Because I've been told that it's okay to hunt those for meat because there's so many of them.

I don't think it's okay to hunt them. There are more minkeys than most of the other species of whales. I don't know their exact status, IUCN wise or threatened wise. However, no. I would argue that any mammal that has a brain like ours and is so developed is not okay to kill. And, you know, then they're also hunting fin whales, which are the second largest whale on the planet. So I can't see Any reason why we should be killing a whale today?

I hope you don't mind. Many people may not know that much about sperm whales, including myself, so I learned a lot reading your book, Cook. But do you mind if you just give us like the sperm whale for dummies, like how big they are, how long they live, their social life, male, female roles, diet, how they communicate, their enemies. Just give us the gist of sperm whales, if you don't mind.

Sperm whales, in my opinion, are one of the most incredible animals on the planet. They're an animal of superlatives. They are the largest predator on our planet. They have the largest brain. They are toothed whale, so therefore they're the predator. They dive one of the deepest of any whales, so they actually hunt giant squid down in the dark depths of the ocean. They can also hold their breath. Since they're mammals, they are air breathers, so they are diving and holding their breath for 45 minutes. While they're hunting. We only see a glimpse of their life at the surface. They are sexually dimorphic, so the females are around 30ft and the males are double that in their 60ft. And then of course, we've got the tails of Moby Dick and all of those whales that were 80ft. Now, we don't really see very many that are that big anymore, probably because of whaling, but they can get very large. One of the coolest things about sperm whales also is that their life history is very similar to humans in that they nurse until they're around two. That's when they start eating solid food, and then they stay with their families until they're teenagers. The females actually stay together their entire lives, but the males get kicked out when they're adolescents and go roam the ocean. They reach sexual maturity around that time, so in their teens, much like humans. And then the females will start having babies when they're in their 20s. And then the males, because they have to compete, will be a little bit older, and then they live into their 70s, maybe even longer. So they live almost a parallel life to humans, or at least that's how I like to describe it easily. And they're absolutely incredibly intelligent. They communicate with one another, they have language. There are some scientists trying to decipher their language, but they use clicks and codas, unlike humpbacks that sing. And it's pretty developed. And certainly there's a wisdom behind their eyes that's unlike any other creature I've been in the presence of in the wild.

Like, how do they exhibit wisdom?

It's A good question, and I think it's more of this feeling that I get when I'm in the water with them. But their eyes are extremely expressive. So if we think about any animal that we look at, when you look at their eye, whether it's a shark or a chimpanzee or your pet dog or whomever it is, there's just this knowledge and curiosity that you feel. They are interacting with us in the wild in a way that I've never interacted with another animal before.

Okay, you're swimming along with this 60 foot thing. Are you not terrified? How do you know that the whale doesn't think, oh, look at this new piece of squid here.

Well, there's a few different reasons why I'm not terrified at all. I am a little different than probably most of your listeners in that once I get in the ocean, any apprehension or fear I have about a situation melts away. There's nowhere I feel more comfortable than in the ocean. So for me, that's my initial answer. However, there is logic behind it as well. So because sperm whales are so smart and they have such a large brain, any decision that they make towards me in the water is going to be intentional. The other thing is that they really only hunt at depth and I'm on the surface. So they are resting on the surface, they are refilling their blood with oxygen, they're oxygenating themselves. For anybody who's a free diver listening, we learn breath hold techniques and you can really feel the sperm whale doing that. Different patterns of breathing as they're resting and recovering from this deep, long dive, like 45 minutes down at depth. And then you can listen and hear them breathing to then load oxygen into their system before they dive. So we're really just getting a glimpse of their life at the surface, which is really a rest period for them. But they are very large and I think the most dangerous thing about being in the water with them is possibly getting hit by a tail if you get in the way. But I've never felt any aggression towards me in all of my experiences with them. And so I would say that any initial apprehension I may have had, which I did not have, has certainly melted away at this point.

And just another question out of ignorance. Are there truly albino sperm whales or is that just, just a book?

Is that just Moby Dick? No, there are. There are certainly whiter colored sperm whales. I've not seen one, but they certainly can exist and do exist. Many of the whales that we see have white patches on them and So I would say that it would just be a case of one of those. Maybe there'll be larger white patches or smaller, different patterns. And then, of course, just like with almost any animal, you can see color variation and algae, more albino species of them, or variations, mutations.

And when you decide to go and study and photograph whales, how do you find them? There's a lot of ocean out there.

Yeah, absolutely. And so it really depends on where you're going and what you're looking for. So I intentionally started this project in Dominica because there's a resident population of females that lives in Dominica or in the basin around Dominica. It's a highly regulated operation, so they have permits that you get to get in the water with the whales there. We sort of know that that's a concentrated area for these females with their babies in these family units. I would say that's a good spot that we knew. There's a few other aggregations of whales, there's more resonant populations, one being in the Azores, in Mauritius, in the Galapagos. But then you can really go anywhere and happen upon a sperm whale in deeper water. So I just returned from an expedition where I was looking for sperm whales off of the coast of the us so, like, Feisty was from the water here in the North Atlantic, the western North Atlantic. I decided I wanted to spend some time offshore here to hopefully see a sperm whale. A little bit more of a needle in a haystack. They do see them on some of the aerial surveys. We did not see any on our expedition. However, they certainly are here. When I was doing this project and embarking on the project, I went for the shore thing, which turned out not to always be a sure thing. We had one expedition where we saw no whales, and we certainly have days that we don't. We don't see them when we're there. So it's a lot of time spent to get the images and to spend the time. But once we're in Dominica, we also have to find them. So it's not like you just go out and you see them and they're everywhere. We actually listen for them because they do vocalize and they use clicks for hunting, sonar clicks for hunting. We put a hydrophone down, so we'll go out a couple of miles, put a hydrophone down, listen, and when we hear them, it's a directional hydrophone. We head in the direction that they are, and then between listening and pinpointing where they seem to be and looking, that's how we find them.

And when they're clicking, they're not clicking after they dove all the way down, or they're clicking at the surface, or they click all the time.

They do both. So they're clicking down below, mostly for hunting. So they're actually putting off like a ping, like a sonar ping, that they're then getting that information back. That's how they. They sense where they are in the water. They're going to learn if there's a squid in front of them or something that they're going to hunt in front of them, because they certainly can't see down at depth, it's completely dark. And then they also use the clicks to communicate with one another. So it's a combination. So, yes, you'll see them at the surface, but if they're resting, they won't be clicking. But if they're talking to one another or communicating or looking for each other, then they will be clicking up on the surface surface as well. So it's a different type of pattern with their clicks depending on where they are and what they're doing.

There's an instance in your book where you talk about what you thought was rope stuck in a sperm whale's mouth and it was actually part of a squid. So just how big are these squid that they're eating?

So the squid tentacle that you're referring to was an Architeuthis, so a giant squid. So the tentacle alone was 20ft. So the squid itself was probably between 30 and 40ft long, with the full length extended of its tentacle. So this is the largest species of squid ever. So, yeah, really big squid, Very few have been seen in the wild, certainly alive. I think there's only been a few filmed because they're mostly at depth as well. But very large squid, they'd have a very large beak and they actually have suckers on their tentacles that are quite large, like over a quarter size. And actually, when we got that tentacle, and just to back up on the story, when I saw that rope, I was very upset because I thought that it was a rope. And there's a lot of entanglement issues with sperm whales in Dominica and throughout the the world with whales, entanglement is one of the biggest threats facing them. And so when we saw it and then when they dropped it and brought it up to me and I saw that it was a squid tentacle, it was so freshly caught that it was actually still changing color and sucking onto me, which was pretty neat. Yeah, it was a wild experience. And I Have to say it was, I think, still the best day of my life because two incredible ocean creatures and being part of this, this system, like one of them really gifted it to me. I couldn't have gotten it where it actually fell out of its mouth. So one brought it up to the surface and spit it out right in front of me. And then I was holding a giant squid tentacle, which, you know, one can. I couldn't even dream that of. Right. Not even something that would make. No. And it's not even something I would put on a bucket list thinking that, like, this is something I could ever accomplish. And there I was holding this creature from the depth or a piece of the creature from the depth.

Do you have a picture of you holding that tentacle?

Yes, there is one in the book.

We may need to get that picture for this episode.

Yeah. It's actually usually funny enough, it's the headshot that I use is one where I've taken this 20 foot tentacle and wrapped it around me like a stole. But then in the book, there is actually one where I'm holding it more spread out because it was just so phenomenal. It was one of those stories where I can't talk about sperm whales or give a talk about sperm whales and this project without talking about it because for so many different reasons, but I really felt the sperm. I just thought I was hungry or something and wanted to share. It's dinner.

So I loved your book and there are many things that just struck me about your book, but one thing, and you don't really need to. It's not a question here, but I am amazed that the quality and the color and the number of pages and photos that that book is only $50 because Madison and I finished a book called Think Remarkable and it's, I don't know, 200 something pages. There's not one color page in that thing. Right. And that's $28. So for. For a little more than twice or a little less than twice our book, you get this amazing coffee table book with pictures. I am so impressed with that.

Yeah. Rizzoli, my publisher, are the ones who really take the credit for getting the print quality that we did. And I had a phenomenal designer and team that worked on the book. And also setting the price point was totally up to them. However, when we had the initial conversations, I really wanted to make a book that was more accessible to people. I didn't want it to be cost prohibitive for people. So I really appreciate that you appreciate that as well, because I really want people to be able to see it and read it. So that was a big part of it. But yeah, I didn't have anything to do with the pricing of the book, but I'm very happy that it's not over the top expensive.

Not absolutely. Like I said, I look at how much we charge for our book and I look at how much you charge for your book and my God, your book is a bargain or ours is a rip off, depending on how you want to look at it.

I'll go with mine being a bargain because I think probably a lot of work goes into any book. That's certainly. This was my first book and I have to say that books take a lot of work, whether it's the writing, because I did all of the writing in mine and all of the captions or the photographs. So, you know, a book really becomes a labor of love.

So did you take every photograph in that book?

I took every photograph except the ones that I'm in. So there's a handful that I'm in just to give the scale of the whales and things like that.

But otherwise, how long did it take you to compile all those pictures?

So it was actually quite quick in the scheme of a book. I started the project just five years ago and then the pandemic hit and we had some of the images before the pandemic and that's what sort of brought this project about. But it was four expeditions and really over the course of two years, I guess it was three years because we had the one year of the pandemic where we couldn't get to Dominica to continue to shoot. But largely why it was all shot in Dominica was because of the pandemic. But it actually ended up working out fantastically because I got to know the whales and they got to know me.

Now, when you say you had four expeditions, is an expedition like you and somebody on the boat and that's it, or is it like 50 people on this hundred foot boat? What's an expedition in this context?

Yeah, so I do many different types of expeditions. So sometimes I'm on very large vessels with lots of people. However, with this, it was a very small team. So when I put together this expedition, because we're getting in the water with people, we were land based for this, which is unlike most of the work that I do. So we would go out every day because the whales are in such close proximity. So my team was four people maximum, and only two of us would ever get in the water at one time. Essentially I had three people on a few of the trips and then up to four on others. And then my crew and we were working from a smaller boat, like a sport fishing boat, so like a 35 foot boat. And I had a captain and then our whale guide that's required by our permit to make sure we do everything correctly. And then I also bring someone to help me in the water with my cameras who's local and who's also just a great waterman. So very small team. So usually we have about five or six people on the boat total and we're land based. And then my permits regulate me to being in the water to 10 days at a time for our expeditions.

I am somewhat of a camera geek, so can you tell me what kind of camera you used?

Yeah, so I use a few different types of cameras, but my main camera system is a Nikon. I shoot a D850 in a nauticam housing and then I use a special wide angle conversion port because the animals are so large. And I also shoot a fisheye, but a fisheye often gives distortion. So instead I use this, this wide angle conversion port that gives you a more linear image that looks more like what we're actually seeing. So that's my main system. And then I have a backup Nikon as well. And then for the surface, I shoot mostly Sony's because we're shooting video and sills on the surface.

What model? Sony.

I've used all different ones. I'm very lucky to have a relationship with Sony and so I get whichever one is the latest. So I like the A7 R4, R5 for the stills for sure. And then I. The A7 III or the A7 SIII now I can't. They come out with new models every year, so it's so difficult.

Have they sent you an A9 III yet?

I've not used an A9. No, not yet. Like maybe that's the next one I should request for my, my next expedition.

Is your contact at Sony, Neil Manowitz, the CEO.

No, no.

Okay.

No, it's a different woman.

I'm gonna tell him the. That you are a Sony user and you need an A93 for you.

Okay, that sounds fantastic. Thank you. Yeah, no, absolutely.

But he might ask that you use it underwater too.

One of the biggest reasons why I don't is because of the housings. And housings are so expensive and the housing that I use is honestly more expensive than the camera. So it's one of those things where it's harder to keep Those changing for me all the time. And then also my familiarity shooting that camera that I've been shooting now, the D850 really hasn't changed. And so because of that, I'm so familiar with it. I'm always hesitant when I'm shooting a project to change. But of course, given the right circumstances, I certainly would change. But the one advantage I do find with shooting a DSLR like the D850 with the sperm whales is that the shutter. I think sometimes the sperm whales think I'm having a conversation with it because of the click, click, because of my shutter. And so they're like, what is this shutter? Especially with the whales that haven't seen people. And so I definitely felt that with a few of my interactions, which is pretty cool.

So you want a mechanical click? You want a mechanical shutter?

Well, I'm used to it. And so I've had a few interactions where I think it's been helpful. I'm sure in other instances it would be really helpful to not have it. I think there's a trade off, just like with any technology or anything that we're doing. Maybe it's my justification for my loud shutter that's ruining all my video because I hear the shutter instead of the.

Clicks of the whale and I'm not familiar with that camera at all. So does it have two card slots so you're automatically backing up all the time?

Yes.

Okay, my last camera question is, are you shooting natural light all the time? You never shoot in the dark or anything? It's always natural.

Yeah. With the sperm whales, it's always just ambient light. We're not using any strobes or light. And it's all free diving and snorkeling as we're as quiet and unobtrusive as possible. The water in Diamonds Dominica is, as you saw in the book, it's beautiful. And there's so much light. I mean, sometimes there's. Fortunately, the one day that we had the amazing male interaction, it was pouring rain and it was dark and there was so much particulate in the water that it was hard to get a good image. But I was able to get a couple, which was a relief and some nice video. But generally, yeah, with the sperm whales, I certainly don't want to be shining a light in their eyes and I really want to be like a fly on the wall and have them interact with me how they want to. I want them to show me what they want to show me as I'm like, either gently swimming by them or they're stopped in front of me doing whatever they decide to do. So it's all ambient light. Of course, for other projects, we do use light and other things, but for this one, not so.

I learned just now. There's a golden hour for photographing sperm whales, right?

Yeah, no, there's definitely better light and better water conditions.

Up next on Remarkable People.

I try not to use words like climate change in any of my work. I try to make it so that it's appealing to everyone, so that we learn everybody can make educated choices without it becoming politicized. Certainly as many agencies and things that are on the decline with funding and things, there are other people stepping in to fund this type of work. It's important for people to know about our planet and for people to care about it.

Thank you to all our regular podcast listeners. It's our pleasure and honor to make the show for you. If you find our show valuable, please do us a favor and subscribe, rate and review it. Even better, forward it to a friend. A big mahalo to you for doing this. You're listening to Remarkable People with Guy Kawasaki. Can you give us an overall assessment of the condition of the sperm whale species now that hunting is over, are they making a comeback? Is it okay? Are we in good shape?

Yeah. So they're classified as a vulnerable species by the iucn, so they're not endangered or threatened. Generally, they think that the populations globally are doing okay. And of course, in different subsets of that population, they're doing better or worse? Worse, but certainly from coming from a whale that was nearly hunted to extinction. There certainly are sperm whales in the ocean, but because of their lifestyle and where they live, they're hard to find. But they're classified as vulnerable, so they're doing okay.

And how about your assessment of the condition of the ocean? That's a big question. But what's your impression? Is it on the decline or incline?

So I think that it's a tough question because I think that most people are very gloom and doom and love to say the gloom and doom scenario that our oceans are dying. I don't agree with that. I am much more hopeful. I don't like to think that. I don't like to plant that seed because then people just won't care. We certainly have seen a decline in the ocean and ocean health. However, we also know that that so many of these systems can rebound with the proper amount of care. The one thing that scares me is when we take out the resilience of certain systems, so their ability to rebound so there is definitely a breaking point for certain ecosystems. But nature is wonderful and it really can heal itself if given the opportunity. And I think that with more awareness and more people understanding and caring and connecting with the ocean. As I think what I've noticed in my career is more and more people are caring about our planet as a whole and having these harder discussions, and that gives me hope that it will be okay. But certainly the ocean is facing a lot of challenges, and we are seeing a lot of declines in certain areas and certain things. So I toe the line with that question a bit because I am so hopeful that. That we can keep a healthy ocean for the future.

In my research of you, I noticed one of the projects was called the Tsukiji Project, where that's the fish market in Japan. And when I read that, I said, no, why would she go to Tsukiji? Do you view that as investigative reporting? I went to see the scene of the crime. But you're also an angler, so what's your relationship with seafood, food?

It's an interesting question. So I did all of my graduate work on fish and fisheries, so my degree was studying bluefin tuna. So that was part of why I wanted to go to the market in Tokyo. Bluefin are one of the most highly valuable fish in the ocean. They are hunted also to the point where I would say they were certainly endangered. And then we've learned a lot about them. So when I was doing my research, it was getting really depressing. But my research used to used fishing in order to get the fish that we tagged to learn where they were going in the ocean. I grew up fishing. It's just something that was like my pastime that I did. It's how I interacted and learned about the ocean from a young age. To me, I think I take a scientific approach, and if anybody I know is going to eat fish, I would love that. It's a fish that I know how it's caught, whether I'm catching it or commercially caught by somebody that, you know, we have vetted is doing it in a sustainable way. I think we learn so much more, and people connect with fish through it as a product that they consume. And that's not changing anytime soon. One of the main reasons why I visit fish markets in the fish market in Tokyo is that I think it's extremely fascinating how different cultures relate to fish as a food and as a resource. Every culture displays fish differently. Every culture looks at different, different fish, you know, in different ways, and they value them in different ways. And so Japan, while they're one of the nations that certainly has over harvested and is putting most a lot of pressure on the fish. For me, it was fascinating to go there to see how precious they think everything is in that market. So a piece of tuna is displayed like a precious jewel. Like you would see a diamond necklace and you would never see that here in the US I think it's an important part of the dialogue when we're talking about conservation of fisheries, to look at how cultures view their fish in order to create the right dialogue around it and not just say, stop killing fish. Because let's look at that culture behind it and see if we can get.

On the same playing field as someone who loves sushi. Can you just tell me, like, what's on the Galen approval list for sushi? In the spirit of openness and transparency, I once went to Oslo and I went to a sushi bar and I had minky sushi. And I gotta tell you something, I don't think I would ever have it again. Not because of the moral implications, but I just. It wasn't that tasty to me. So what's the Galen approved fish list to eat?

Oh, that's a really hard one. So I think the one that I always take off of the list for everyone, that a lot of people are upset is bluefin tuna. Really? Because bluefin are very overfished. Of course, they are the most valuable and I've heard the tastiest, especially the toro. But yeah, so bluefin, really, they have a lot of pressure and we need to stop eating them. Of course, I don't see that ever happening in the near future. But, yeah, so I would say that there are certain species of yellowfin. The tricky thing really, with telling you like a certain species of fish is it goes back to where it was caught and how it was caught. So there are certain organizations like the Monterey Bay Seafood Watch, that come out with guides and they have a specific sushi guide. Because you're in California and I'm in New York, the answer is going to be different because of where they're sourcing their food. However, I think there's an app and you can put that in to find out what's good and what's not. And then I think it's important to ask the question of wherever you're eating it is where that fish came from and how it was caught. And I think by asking those questions, we'll create a better way just to be connected to where the food came from, really, because there are certain Tunas that are sustainably caught in a much better way than there are certain tunas that are harvested on slave ships. There was an incredible investigative piece and film that came out about the use of slavery in harvesting tuna. And I don't think anybody wants to support that fish, whether or not there's plenty of fish in the ocean. So I think by asking questions and getting the restaurants to know that you care as a consumer, we can then create just better fisheries globally.

We had Julie Packard on this podcast, and she said something very similar to what you just said. If someone's listening to this and is inspired by your story, like, how does one become a marine scientist like you?

A lot of hard work is the first answer. There's a lot of different ways of going about it. For me, I was really lucky that I found my passion when I was very young. Young. So I started out by just being a sponge for knowledge about the ocean, whether it was reading books or trying to find any marine science camp or anybody who would teach me anything or take me under their wing or I was lucky enough to grow up on the coast, so going and exploring my local habitats all the time. And then I got a biology and art history degree in undergrad and university. And then, then I got a job to learn a little bit more of the basics, working in Antarctica and in a lab at Woods Hole just to gain more experience. And then I went to graduate school, so where I focused on the tunas. So I got my master's. And then actually I had this epiphany midway through my PhD that I really wanted to have more of an impact by telling ocean science stories and being more of a storyteller than actually completing my academic degree. So I took a leave of absence and I never looked back because I figured I just had so much I wanted to share with the world about what I knew all of my friends and colleagues were learning when I was hearing all these gloom and doom stories. There are so many different pathways you can take to get involved in the ocean and to have an impact on ocean science and ocean conservation. There's not just one path, but that was my path.

So you're not a professor at some school teacher teaching marine science?

No.

So. So are you constantly having to try to raise funds and get grants and all this kind of stuff to do your research and to do your work?

Yes, yes, absolutely. A large part of what I have to do is raise the funds to do the projects, certain projects. I'm really lucky now that when I started doing this science Communication and telling these stories wasn't really a thing. Scientists really worked in this bubble and that was really the impetus for me leaving academics because nobody knew what we were doing. And I found it very frustrating. So when I left, I was actually written into quite a few National Science foundation grants to go on the expeditions with my then colleagues. Still my colleagues and I still mostly work with people that I've known in the past. And so they'd write me into their grants and then that would fund. Fund the expeditions for me when I started. And then as it built, you know, it's fundraising. So everything from private donors to corporate sponsors, brand sponsorships and grants. So it's very creative to fund my work, but all worthwhile. Yeah.

In this political environment where, you know, people are in denial that the Environmental Protection Agency should even exist and public radio should exist, NSF has got to be on that list of things that we. We don't really need this. We just support the petroleum industry and climate change is a myth. I mean.

I try not to use words like climate change in any of my work. I try to make it so that it's appealing to everyone, so that we learn everybody can make educated choices without it becoming politicized. Certainly, as many agencies and things that are on the decline with funding and things, there are other people stepping in to fund this type of work, which is fantastic because it is important. Important. It's important for people to know about our planet and for people to care about it. And so fundamentally at the root of it all, really, I just care so much and want people to share that passion. And that's really why I do it. And I think it's just about everybody asking the right questions when they're making their choices and also trying not to politicize something that's really not political. Our planet's health should not be political. It should be something. And it is something that most people care about. They just stop caring about it when someone decides to label it something. So it's really about taking away those labels. Most of the people who are against climate change like to go fishing, right? They like to use these natural resources. So it's about getting them into that dialogue from a point of view that they're interested in instead of saying something that upsets them.

Okay, last question. If you could. Can you just relate to us maybe the two or three best moments of your career?

Oh, my goodness, that is a really hard question. One of the best was the first time I saw Antarctica. And that was my first expedition. I was 22 years old, and I had set a goal for myself when I was five that I wanted to go to all seven continents before I was 25, and I really wanted to go to Antarctica. And seeing Antarctica, and then later in that expedition, setting foot on Antarctica, which was my seventh continent, but really seeing Antarctica and knowing that my hard work had gotten me there and nothing else was just extremely gratifying. And I felt, one, I was on the right path. Two, something was working, gang. And three, it was just so cool. It was just something, like, so different that I could never have imagined. And it feels so different in Antarctica, and everything about it was just challenging, but also spectacular. Second, I would say what we spoke about, the giant squid tentacle getting gifted to me by the sperm whale, and it was spectacular and amazing for a few different reasons. I'd say one, being because it was a giant squid tentacle that was gifted to me, and two, because it really felt like the sperm whales were bringing me into their community. They saw me and they were interacting with me on a different playing field than me being a part of what they were. And I had many interactions with them that felt like they were looking to make sure I was there and being part of their. Whatever they were doing, which I'm gonna speculate that they were grooming one another or playing. Playing.

You're. You're basically the Jane Goodall of Wales.

Well, that's quite a bold statement, but I certainly do love them and have a strong connection with them. Well, thank you. I will take that as the largest compliment that I have ever gotten. I very much appreciate it.

And then. Is there a third? Or we're Gonna quit at 2.

Oh, my goodness, the third. Let's see.

Being on this podcast.

Yes. Being on this podcast has been fantastic. I think that just having the feedback and the appreciation that I've gotten from my book and I think that really being able to share my love of the whales with people like you on this podcast and with, really, the world through different speaking engagements and just people reading my book and sending me notes, has really been extremely gratifying because it's. It took a lot of hard work to get here and a lot of hard work to make the book as we know. But I was able to share my passion for the ocean and conservation through telling this intimate story about the whales. So it plays two roles. You can either just look at the whale pictures and like it or read the content and then know that there's so much more behind it. But one of the greatest things that I get to do is I get to spend all my time in the ocean. So really, every time I'm in the ocean, there's something extremely special that happens, and I'm very lucky.

I hope you enjoyed this episode and you learned a lot about sperm whales. What a treat this was. What a magnificent species. I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People. The whale of A good team that helped me with this episode is Madison Knysmer, producer and co author of Think Remarkable, Tessa Neismer, researcher Jeff C. And Shannon Hernandez, sound design engineer, and also Louise Magana, Alexis Nishimura, and Fallon Yates. We are the Remarkable People team on a mission to make you remarkable. Until next time, mahalo and aloha. This is remarkable people.