Geoff Cohen: The Art of Connecting With People

Here's something remarkable and not in a good way. Disengaged employees cost US companies almost $1.9 trillion a year. That's a lot of zeros. Why? Because when teams lack the right skills, productivity declines, turnover increases, and strategies stagnate. But it doesn't have to be that way. At Project Management Institute, home of the PMP and globally recognized certifications, your people can learn to collaborate, deliver on time, and actually get things the cost of not upskilling way higher than the investment. Project Management Institute. Find the answers@pmi.org.

I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is remarkable people. We are on a mission to make you remarkable. Today's remarkable guest is Jeffrey Cohen. He is a professor at the Graduate School of Education at Stanford University. His research focus is the factors that shape people's sense of belonging and self and the implication of these feelings on social problems. He studies the threats to belonging and self integrity that people encounter in school, work and healthcare settings. His new book is called the Science of Creating Connection and Bridging Divides. Jeffrey obtained his BA in Psychology from Cornell University and his PhD in Psychology from Stanford. He was a recipient of the Robert cialdini Award in 2014 and 2015. Our topics today include the danger of the fundamental attribution error, how to make wise interventions, how to utilize situation crafting, and why we should not consider humans as information processors. Hi, I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People. And now here's the remarkable Jeffrey Cohen. I would like to start with an update on Hank, the college roommate that was so ideologically different from you.

Oh wow, what a great question. Hank was my college roommate while I was at Cornell and he came from the south and he was very conservative, deeply conservative. And we were put together as roommates. And I don't think I had ever engaged intellectually with a conservative the way I did with Hank. I generally lean liberal and I did then and Cornell at the time and still is a relatively liberal campus. And Hank told me that he didn't really feel at home at Cornell. And at least during the year that we were roommates, I think he continued to feel that way. And what was so formative to me, and I hope him, was that we just engaged in all these political issues. We debated, we talked, we got into late night debates, you know, at our desks, we'd be sitting at our mutual desks and I'd make a comment, are you going to the pro choice rally? And he would just get inflamed. How could you ask that? And this kind of Happened on a pretty weekly basis. There would be some verbal eruption arising from some comment one of the two of us made and the other one just could not just let it sit there. And we would just start debating. And the thing about Hank is he was a member of the debate team in high school, and he was so fluent, so articulate, so deep in his thinking, that I had the devil of a time making my arguments come across to him, let alone be satisfactory to me. I'd never had the need to justify my political beliefs and found them so challenged, as I did with Hank during that year we were together, and we would just debate late into the night. Soon, crowds would form in our dorm room to listen in. And as political debates can be, I felt. I don't know how he felt. He was a very nice, nice man, But I would get so angry that I felt this kind of almost rage that I just could not. Not only convince him, but I found that for my most cherished political beliefs, I had such a hard time articulating the reasons for them. And I think through this process, I just came to understand how difficult it is to really know the reasons underlying our beliefs and the intellectual foundations for them. And. And much of the time, actually, the research in social psychology suggests the reasons for our political beliefs are more like post hoc rationalizations. We decide what we want to believe, and then we confabulate reasons for why we hold the positions we do. How those beliefs are initially held is through group influence. We often want to belong to groups. Our family, our community, our friendship networks. And the sort of social pressures and social influences of our groups, both big and small, shape our beliefs and also shape our kind of outlook on the world. And so political beliefs often have this sort of tribal component, as many people have commented, both for good and for ill. And as a result, we often don't really reflect as deeply as I had to do with Hank on the intellectual basis for them. So as a result of that conversation, how it relates to belonging is. It really did kind of drive home to me just how much of our beliefs stem from a desire to belong. And for Hank, as I said, he felt a lot of uncertainty about his place at Cornell. He felt uncertain as to whether he belonged. And for that reason, at least for the first couple of years of college, he really didn't shift in his conservative views until much later, when he found a group at Cornell to which he felt a sense of connection. I have not seen Hank since graduating Cornell. We've kind of lost touch. And not that I'm a cyber stalker. But I did try to track him down on Facebook and I think I successfully did. I think I successfully did. He's now a arborist working with trees in the south. And I tried to say hi via Facebook and he didn't respond. So I don't know what that means, but I think he might not have just gotten it.

I thought we're gonna have some great story about now. You know, he's like working for Planned Parenthood or something.

I can't wait.

He's. He's Stacey Abrams, campaign manager.

Well, you know what? You just inspired me to redouble my efforts to find out because who knows, that may be possible.

Who knows? As an arborist, you would think he's concerned about climate change.

Yeah, that's true. Right? That's true. I do know he comes from a long chain of families, generation of families that did gardening and agriculture, so I think it also runs in his family. But it is true. I don't know what became of Hank, but maybe someday we will find out. Maybe he's listening right now.

This is a good example and a personal example of the fundamental attribution error.

Yeah, the fundamental attribution error being the tendency to over emphasize the role of internal dispositions, personality, intrinsic features of the person, and trying to explain other people and to underestimate the power of the situation as a driver of people's behavior. The term was coined by one of my colleagues, recently passed away, a brilliant social psychologist named Lee Ross. The fundamental attribution error is this systematic error we make when we're trying to understand other people, especially, especially people who differ from us, to attribute what they say and what they do to some underlying essence in who they are, rather than to the circumstances that they're in, both real and as the other people perceive them. So I think in the case of Hank, my immediate reaction was, this guy is so ignorant. And that would have been my initial reaction. So ideological and so biased. Right. That's what we usually do when we encounter people who disagree or differ from us. At first we think, oh, they must just be ill informed. But then as I did with Hank, I found out pretty quick, no, actually he's very well informed. Then you go to think, well, maybe he's just stupid or unreasonable, lack some fundamental cognitive capacity. And then as with Hank, we sometimes often realize that, no, actually the people with whom we disagree are often pretty smart, have pretty good reasoning capacities, at least if we engage with them, we often discover that. And, and then we go to this kind of attribution of biases, as I do with Hank, thinking man, he must just be intrinsically biased, blind, willfully blind to the facts. And I think that this is a kind of error that fuels so much conflict today. We are unaware of the role of situations in explaining people's behavior, including our own, and instead, we jump to conclusions about their character for their personality or their abilities and trying to understand them. And that fuels a lot of divisiveness. In the case of Hank, maybe I could have realized that both of us came from different communities, different worlds, and it's those differences in our backgrounds and our friendships in our social networks that explain our differing perspectives. And I think maybe understanding that, really appreciating that would have made me at least less rageful in the moment. Now, with the. With the benefits of distance, I can kind of look back calmly. But at the time, I did feel quite challenged by him and quite angry at my inability to persuade him. Wow.

It's a very cathartic recording.

So getting something off my chest here. I really appreciate it.

I'm your podcaster, not your psychiatrist. I forgot.

Sorry.

So are you in effect, saying, and I'm not saying to a great degree, but as a factor, that this whole united part of United States that seems to be falling apart is because people need to feel like they belong to something? Is it that simple?

I wouldn't say it's all the problem by any means. I'm a social scientist. One of the things social scientists have contributed to an understanding of human behavior is just the sheer role of complexity. Every problem is multifactorial. That just means there's many things contributing to it. And that's probably one of the most. As I go into the book, one of the most undersold discoveries of social science is that human behavior unfolds in a complex system of influences. So I would never say it's the singular or only cause, but I do feel as though it is a big contributor. It is a big contributor in two ways. First off, the groups to which we feel a sense of belonging shape our beliefs. A social psychologist named Stanley Schachter once said and showed in his research that groups exert pressures to uniformity. That means when we're in a group, we have a desire to come to some kind of cognitive common ground, a shared understanding of reality. And so groups exert pressures on us and to see the world in a way aligned with our group. And I think that's a important driver of the beliefs that we have and perhaps explains why things are so divisive Today, at least in part. Increasingly, conservatives and liberals live in different worlds, different neighborhoods. I think there was a recent study, I believe, in science, just showing the degree, the surprising degree of segregation between the left and the right, down to the level of neighborhoods. We just don't inhabit the same social worlds the way we used to, including also in Congress. It used to be the case that Democrats and Republicans would have lunch together, have dinner together, across party lines. That doesn't really happen that much anymore. And so I think as we're increasingly living and inhabiting different worlds, as our groups are inhabiting different worlds, we're kind of becoming more polarized, seeing the world in a different way. So that's the first way in which belonging is really important for understanding our political divide. The second role of belonging in understanding the political divide is the role of encounters across lines of difference in making us feel that our belonging is under threat. So too many times in our conversations across political divides, also across racial divides, across national divides, the conversations go south. And they become, as my conversations with Hank had, battles in which both people are much more interested in vocalizing their position and in persuading or controlling the other person's minds than they are in listening. And that comes across. And that's one of the research suggests that I did long ago with Claude Steele and Josh Aronson, suggests that when people encounter information that's incongruent with their political views, it's threatening to their sense of self, it's threatening to their sense of belonging. And to the degree that that's so, they'll often resist it or try to refute it in order to negate that threat. And so those are the two ways in which I think belonging plays out in some of the divides, of course, there's many other. Many other factors, including the media, including the algorithms that feed the news, news at our social media, all that stuff matters. And we've investigated it. But I think those two ways. Belonging is really a key driver of the political divide today, both in the sense of our attachment to groups and in the way that we otherize. Otherize? I don't know. That could be used as a. As a verb. People who come from opposing groups who have different views from our own, and that just adds jet fuel to the fire.

And does this cut both ways? So, you know, suppose you're a liberal and you're saying, that guy's so stupid, he's anti vax, you know, whatever. But let's. I mean, is there also this force to conformity? Let's say you're a fan of AOC and you're in the AOC fan club. Is there just as much forced conformity.

In that group as in the non AOC group or the anti ASU group? Yeah.

Yeah. So I don't know. If you're the AOC group, you better buy an electric car. You can't eat meat.

I, you know, I don't know what else. It's a good question. Maybe in the research that I've seen and the research that I've done, I have not found that years ago we did a study on what came to be known as the party over policy effect, in which we looked at how strong conformity pressures are as a determinant of political beliefs and attitudes. And the studies were really simple, but ended up being a harbinger of much that came later. We did these in the 90s and early O's, and to make a long story short, what we did was we brought liberals and conservatives into our lab and had them read a newspaper article about a new welfare policy that was going to be introduced throughout their state. Now, in one case, that welfare policy was very, very generous, with pretty lavish benefits, support for education and job training and children. In the other case, for another group of participants, the welfare policy was quite stringent, even draconian, with very, very limited benefits and a strict time limit on the benefits. Now, under without any other information, liberals like the generous policy more than the stringent one, and conservatives like the stringent policy more than the generous one. And the question we asked was, what happens when we tell people, through an experimental ruse, that their group actually like the opposite, the sort of ideologically opposite policy? What happens, for instance, when liberals discover that, or are told in the context of our study, that fellow Democrats actually prefer the stringent policy instead of the generous one? And what we found was that people's views shift to align with those of their political group. Democrats favor a stringent policy when it's supported by fellow Democrats, and conservatives, too, showed just as much conformity. Then we call this the party over policy effect because party allegiances trump policy content, at least in the context of this study. And later studies have replicated this, and we found that it's pretty much symmetrical across political lines. My colleague Emily Pronin has shown that this interesting phenomenon, wherein we tend to think that it's the other side that is biased by conformity, not ourselves or our side, and that's also, again, the sort of fundamental attribution error in action, and it undercuts our sense of inclusion, sense of being part of a united community, these sorts of biases. I think that's one of the lessons of the book, is that these kinds of biases as they unfold day to day, really introduce tears and strains into the, the kinds of connection and the sense of belonging that we could otherwise achieve.

When you read that the Republican Party of Texas wants to vote on secession, is the interpretation that the Republicans want to belong more to the Republican Party than to the United States?

Well, that could be party over country. Party over country. And I think that it's a good question. I mean it's an empirical question. The degree to which allegiance is a sort of pervasive bias among Texans, Texas Republicans, I don't know. But certainly even my, my colleagues David Sherman and Lee Van Boven have shown similar effects in the context of global warming and environmental policy, showing that both liberals and conservatives shift their views on environmental policies in light of the position of their political groups. And it's a sort of party over planet effect that people will even oppose policies that are good for the environment, at least more so if told that their political group opposes them.

But every liberal is probably thinking the reason why I believe in climate change and all the green stuff is because it's science and it's independently true. It's not because I'm influenced by conformity.

Yeah, yeah. And every Republican is, I know is, is also thinking that their beliefs and their attitudes arise from a bottom up consideration of the facts, guided by their values. And would probably say the same thing, that it's not coming from group pressures. These kinds of judgmental biases, these cognitive biases affect all of us. Ironically, they're what unite us. And while they undercut our belonging, we can find ways together to fight back against them and promote a sense of belonging and connection even across these fault lines.

Which leads us right back to your book, which is let's talk about wise intervention, situation crafting.

Well, I introduced the idea of situation crafting to capture this idea and documented in social psychology of the power of the situation. So it turns out that one of the most underappreciated influences on our behavior and our thoughts and feelings is the situation right here, right now, how people are, are treating us, what's happening around us in the social environment. We're in the classroom, in the workplace, in political discussions. And the situation turns out to be a great lever for promoting belonging. And there are many so called. The term is wise interventions, a term introduced by both Claude Steele and Greg Walton that refer to these strategic Interventions that we introduce into situations to make them more likely to bring out our best and make them more likely to ease tensions and bring people together, including across lines of difference. So wise interventions are these kind of situational tweaks, often small, that can have big effects.

Can you give us some tactical examples of wise intervention situation crafting?

Oh, yeah, sure. One of the examples of situation crafting that I go into is the example of values affirmations. So values affirmations are these activities that we can give to people in situations that help them to express their core values. And there's a lot of research that suggests that these little activities, when introduced, can have pretty powerful effects on people. So, for instance, in one study by David Creswell, he put people in a very stressful situation where they had to give an impromptu talk in front of a very, very judgmental audience that heckled at them, and they had to give this talk. And what he found is that people's stress response spiked in that situation. When you looked at their cortisol level, which is a kind of stress related hormone, it jumped in that situation compared to a situation where they didn't have to give the talk. But Cresto also introduced a little wise intervention into that situation in which he first had people write about or reflect on core values that they had. So in this values affirmation activity, people will describe their values, such as relationships with friends and family is a big value, or creativity, or even their career. And what these moments of reflection do is to ground us. They help us, to give us perspective in an otherwise threatening situation. What often happens in these threatening situations is they kind of engulf us. And by reflecting our core values, we remind ourselves of who we are and what we're committed to. And what Creswell found was that that values affirmation activity eliminated the spike in cortisol as a result of having to give this stressful talk. So that little wise intervention buffered people against an otherwise stressful situation. So these values affirmations are one example of what's been called wise interventions. These small situational tweaks right here, right now, that we can do to ourselves or with one another that help make a situation go a little bit better than it otherwise, might make it a little bit less stressful, make it a little bit less threatening to belonging, but sometimes, you know, large and lasting effects. With my colleagues, Julio Garcia and Valerie Purdy Greenway, we actually looked at the effects of values affirmations in classrooms during the turbulent years of middle school. This is ages 12 to 13. It's like the 60s of development. Just a lot of turbulence, and there's a lot of stress. And children during this developmental era are very, very concerned with belonging and connection. And it's just at this moment where they're actually craving more connection with adults, that in middle school, they often get less of these connections, less of these relationships. These are being shifted from class to class with different teachers. There's often policies in place which divide the students, such as honor rolls. It's at this juncture when what we call belonging uncertainty is especially acute. And what we did was to just ask the question, why does intervention help? At this critical developmental juncture? For half of the students, we had the teachers give them a values affirmation writing activity in which the kids wrote about an important value that they had. And many of the kids write about really poignant topics in their lives. I remember I've read hundreds of these essays, and one of the children wrote about how his mother and his family are. Is just so important to him, and he works after school to support. Help support the household. And so much self comes out in these essays in which the children, even at this age, are asked to reflect on what's most important to them. Anyhow, we do that a few times throughout the year. And what we found is that the students who are experiencing the most belonging uncertainty benefit in terms of their grades at various schools. At the first school we looked at this was African American students who often contend with negative stereotypes about their group, and so they feel ostracized and excluded, understandably, in school, their grades as a result of this intervention went up. And even though the total duration of the interventions was probably 30 or 40 minutes across seventh grade, two years later, they were still performing better academically, getting higher grades. And then to our surprise, when we checked back in on these kids, I think it was six years later, the children who had completed the values affirmation activity in seventh grade were now more likely, according to official records, to be in college. So that's an example of a wise intervention that can, at a key juncture, set people on a better course. So another example is one of the tasks that we have all the time is. Is giving good feedback in education, in work settings. So a fundamental dilemma in education is how to provide good critical feedback, including across racial or gender divides. So this is a challenge that we experience in so many situations as spouses, as coaches, as teachers, as mentors. How do you give good feedback that both instructs and motivates in which people learn from their Mistakes, but also still feel a sense of belonging and in school or at work or whatever the domain is. So one of the things that we tested, a wise intervention that we tested was what we call wise criticism. And with wise criticism, what you do is to make it very clear that the criticism that you're giving is coming from your high standards and your belief in the person's ability to reach them. So what we did is in research with Claude Steele and David Jaeger and others, was to test the effects of wise criticism, mainly in school context. We did this, for instance, in middle school and in high school in which students submitted their work to their teacher and then they got whatever feedback their teacher normally gave them on their work. And then for one group of students, they got wise criticism in which the teacher penned a note at the start of the essay saying, look, I'm giving you this criticism because I have high standards and I believe in your potential to reach them. And what we found is that little note had whopping effects, especially again for the students who felt most ostracized and not included, in this case, African American students getting feedback from their white teachers. The percentage of students who then later revise their essays jumped from 17% in a control condition to 72% among those receiving the wise feedback note. So a little shift in how criticism is provided has a big impact on people's receptiveness to it. And that was an example of a non obvious way to give criticism. One of the things that we found is that typically when people give critical feedback, they often use a sort of positive buffer strategy. They give a little bit of positive feedback. You know, overall, nice work, your enthusiasm really shows through. That turns out to work a little bit, but not nearly as well as this wise intervention. And there's many other kind of interventions that we go into that range from interventions in which we disclose one another through structured questions that help to increase a sense of connection, certain kinds of questions. Art Aaron has this technique that he calls 36 questions, in which people ask one another questions of gradually increasing intimacy and by the end they feel very connected. Even though it's about a half hour intervention, that little intervention has a big impact on people's sense of connection with one another and has even been shown to help, for instance, ethnic minorities feel more included at school.

This is a semi facetious question, but so if you telling me that I should go to my teenage son and I say, you know, son, I have really high standards, so that's why you need to clean up your room.

Are.

You saying that make it more effective? Because I'll do that.

Well, I don't know about that situation. All of this really depends on being authentic guy. Right. I mean, if you really believe that and you.

I do have my standards.

That could work.

I'll get back to you. So to be even more tactical, would you say that not that this was intentional or planned, but it happened to become a wise intervention that. Didn't you mention that Hank's desire and eventual joining of a frat, which provided him a different group to belong to, influenced a lot of his thinking? So was that a. And not planned, not intentional, but was that a wise situational intervention?

Yeah. One of the things that happened with Hank many years later, I bumped into him after being away, studied abroad, and back on campus, I bumped into him and discovered that he had had a big shift in his political views. For example, one of the issues in which we disagreed so much at the time was the issue of gay rights. And he was adamantly opposed to them at the time we first met. But three years later, he was very supportive. And even Hank found himself in a physical fight with another person in the dorm in which he was standing up for gay rights against another guy who was very violently opposed to them. And Hank, all of a sudden, had become an advocate for gay rights when before he had been an adversary to them. So what had happened to him? It wasn't arguments that changed him. Like my arguments with him, the kind of reasoning, the kind of debates I had with him, they. They hadn't shifted him one bit. Instead, it was connecting with a new group. It was connecting with a new group. Many years later, a few years, Hank told me what had happened. Many years later, he decided to rush a fraternity. And there was one that he particularly liked. And he was very motivated to become a member of this fraternity. And one night, he was there at dinner at the fraternity's house. And while he was there, he started on one of his tirades against gay people at the dinner table, Whereupon one of the fraternity members slammed down his silverware and said, you just condemned my whole life and walked away. Now, it turned out that this fraternity member was gay. And also, to Hank's surprise, it turned out that many members of this fraternity were gay. And it was that identifying with a new group that started to crack open Hank's mind to an alternative point of view. When he found himself in a new community, people with new ideas, new perspectives, that opened him up, that exerted precious uniformity of opinion that Stanley schachter had described in Some of his early, early research. But also there was something else. Hank started to feel like he belonged on campus. He had a kind of group of people that he felt a strong connection to. And it was that affirmation, I think, that also opened him up to a new way of thinking. To my surprise, Hank even said, I thought a lot about those debates that we had had a few years ago. And I've just been thinking a lot about them, and now they're starting to resonate with me more. So first it required a sort of change in heart openness in Hank's heart as a result of this sort of change in his situation, and then his head could change. It wasn't that rational arguments and reasoning and evidence were irrelevant. They were. But he needed a kind of sort of secure base, a sense of affirmation before those arguments could take root in his mind. In later research that I did with some colleagues, we looked at this experimentally in which we brought political liberals and political conservatives into our lab and presented them with evidence that contradicted their views on capital punishment. And for one group of participants, we just had them affirm themselves by writing about something that gave them a sense of meaning in their lives, and they would write about values that they held or a group that they identified with, something that gave them a sense of groundedness. And we found that people who did that, who affirmed their sense of self in a domain outside of politics that's kind of key, were subsequently more open to this new political information. It wasn't that they agreed with it, though some did. They were less likely to attribute the author of the views of the source of the evidence to intellectual bias or to ideological bias, to ignorance. They were more open to the other side.

So would you say that the case of Christian. Is it Pisiglione Pisaleone? Piccio?

Leone Piccioloni? Yeah.

He was a member of the Ku Klux Klan. He goes to work for a music store, Come to find out he has a lot of great interactions with black people and that kind of change his ideology.

Yeah.

Is this a similar kind of story?

I think it is. In. In a lot of this research, I'm working with extremist groups that Deloney discusses now, but also that a another social psychologist by the name of Ari Kruglansky, who studied extremist groups has found is that one of the ways to bring people with extremist views back into the fold is to offer them a new port, a new place to belong. And time and again, that's what's come across anecdotally especially, is that people do change. My mother says people never change. I actually disagree. People do change. It's just not often at the pace we want. We're in the direction we want. And a lot of times we get very frustrated because it's almost like we're applying the wrong keys to open a door. There are certain things that change people, and if these things are introduced into the situation, they can open people up to change. But it has to be the right. The right keys, the right things that are introduced in the situation. So in the case of extremists who do change, it is often the case that they're not moved by evidence or arguments. What they're moved by is someone extending them regard and believing in them and having a connection with them, who believes in their humanity, even though they hold these extreme views and who sticks with them time and again. It's that connection with someone on the other side, in another world that opens people up. I'm not saying that happens all the time. Of course it doesn't happen all the time. But when it does happen, it's often that ingredient, that sense of belonging and connection with someone who offers an alternative way of relating to the world. And that happened with piccioloni. It happens with a number of extremists who turn. They are given a kind of new source of belonging, new friendships, new people, new communities, and also in some cases, even a new life, new kind of work, a household in which they feel they belong, a family life that they can feel satisfied with. This kind of combination of elements that helps to secure a sense of belonging in an otherwise threatening situation. Because a lot of these people come from fairly disadvantaged backgrounds. Not all extremists come from disadvantaged backgrounds, but a lot too. There's a kind of crises, psychological crises, that often serve as a precursor to it. But when they do shift, it's that element of a secure base, a sense of connection with the new world, a sense of belonging.

So let's take a hypothetical case. So you're a California family, total liberal, greeny, anti gun, pro choice, just the whole shooting match. And you go away to college at the University of Texas and you want to join a frat, and you, you really like this people in this frat. And then you find out, oh my God, all these people own guns. They really love guns. So could that person be, you know, want to affiliate with this frat and all of a sudden become a gun.

Lover and second amendment? Yeah.

Open carry in California activists.

Yes. I think it Goes both ways. It goes both ways. It's not that we roll over or buckle under the group, though sometimes we do. Those group pressures can be strong, but it at the very least leads us to look at the world and the issue from a different point of view. It's almost as though we can't help doing that. When we're with a group of people that have a certain outlook with whom we identify, we can't help but look at the world from their point of view. And it's not the case that we'll necessarily go there, but we're a bit more likely to perhaps, and a bit more likely at least to show compassion to people who disagree with us. And I'm not, of course, saying that there is without getting into sort of any political positions. I'm not, of course, I'm not saying that one position is better than another. The only point I'm making is that the standard tools we use to reach across these lines of difference, to try to create connection, to try to reach the other side, do not work and often do more harm than good. What really seems to work is creating those connections, which requires a lot of patience because people don't change at the pace we want. And there's some really brilliant research by two political scientists that show this. I think it's one of the most inspiring examples of political change research that I've seen by David Bruckman and Joshua Kala, in which they show that a 10 minute conversation across political lines changes people. And what they do is they go to one of the most conservative areas in Florida, Miami Dade. And what they're trying to do is to open up the residents to the idea of transgender rights and. Wow. Yeah, in this area. So it's a. That's a big. I mean, if you're going to try to change people, that's a very challenging situation to do it in. But they do it successfully and they do it with a very brief, wise intervention, a 10 minute conversation. What happens in that 10 minute conversation? Well, what they do is they have canvassers go door to door in Miami Dade. So there's a kind of face to face contact, and they knock on the doors and the canvassers then introduce the issue of transgender rights to these residents and they have a conversation about what is it about these conversations that's so effective? First of all, there's a lot of rapport. These canvassers, they support transgender rights, and that's made clear over the course of the conversation. But they begin with interest first. They ask a Lot of Socratic questions of the residents. What do you feel about this issue? First they show a little video about the issue, and then they just have a conversation, which they're just talking about the issue. What do you think of it? What are your feelings about this topic? And they listen. The canvassers listen. That's very important because listening is one way in which we affirm other people, we communicate that we're taking the other person seriously, and we think that their perspective matters. It gives people a sense of what's called voice. So there's that element of what they call culture, participatory processes in which people are listening. So that's a kind of affirmation experience. Then on top of that, that's not the only thing. There is a kind of intellectual challenge that the canvasser introduces, what's called analogic perspective taking. The canvasser then, after establishing this rapport, just asks people, there's a lot of cases in which people experience the pain of being treated differently just because they're different. Can you think of a time in your life when you had that experience? And so they were kind of creating a sort of thought experiment for the residents that got them to connect with the issue not at a literal level, but at a psychological level. And almost all residents could think of a time, I mean, as we all can, where they felt treated differently because they were different, treated unfairly because they were different. As one resident said, he had been in the army and had PTSD now as a result of his service in the military. And now he was having trouble finding work, steady employment because of his ptsd. He felt like he was judged unfairly. This analogic perspective taking and the sharing of stories brings people together. It's a powerful bonding agent. Then at the end of this 10 minute conversation, there's another element or another ingredient called freezing. So now that I've opened you up, opened up your mind, created a sort of secure environment for you to explore an area that might be intellectually challenging, emotionally challenging for you. There's a moment that's called that Kurt Lewin, the famous social psychologist, called freezing, in which I just say, okay, guy, given our conversation today, how has it affected your views of transgender rights? Has it changed you in any way? Do you think you'll support it more, support it less, or remain unchanged? And what that does, it's a moment to consolidate all the thoughts that have been stirred up through the encounter into a singular new direction, a new attitude. And by the way, again, this is against the backdrop of to change political Views, nearly nothing works. But these guys were applying a lot of psychological technology, affirmation, analogic perspective taking, freezing, the sharing of stories, all compressed into 10 minutes. Six months later, they found that these people were much more sympathetic to transgender rights and actually more likely to take a stand against anti transgender hate propaganda. So I think this is incredibly inspiring and just goes against this wisdom that people don't change, people do change, but it takes the right kinds of keys and often we're using the wrong keys, and often the keys we're using are just driving people further apart from us. Unfortunately, there's so many examples of this where the things that we do day to day, the interventions that. The many interventions that we apply in our day to day lives, the interventions and the policies that schools use, workplaces use, often do more harm than good. These are based on a kind of fallacious view of human nature as a kind of information processor that, you know, we do process information, of course, but as a social species, what's most moving to us, what's most influential to us is that sense of connection. We are built as a species to go through life together with our groups. And it's these groups that shape us, and it's also these encounters with other groups, if they go well, that open us up to change.

I think one of the important consequences is that, at least from my reading of the book, this is not something that Mitch McConnell or Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden himself or herself implements. This is something that. It's your interaction with a waiter, it's going to the music store, it's how you pledge for a frat. Would you say that the, the efficacy of freezing is in line with sort of the Bob Cialdini concept of consistency, which is. Six months ago I told that guy that this has changed me, and if I go backwards, that makes me inconsistent with what I said. And so I need to.

Yeah. Cialdini. He's one of my favorite social psychologists. Bob Cialdini, amazing situation crafter, an amazing social psychologist. Brilliant, brilliant experiments showing the power of the situation and the power of crafting situations.

He's one of the handful of people who have been on this podcast twice.

Interesting. Foreign.

Let's say you're in the.

You.

You're belonging to some group, Republican Party, Democratic Party, whatever, Ku Klux Klan, Planned Parenthood, whatever it is. What are the danger signs that tell you maybe this is not something I should belong to?

That is a really deep question. I think that in some ways, a lot of times we, we know, we know that what our group allegiances are leading us to do contradict our values. There is a kind of sense of what Leon Festinger called cognitive dissonance. And it's this, as Festinger put it, it's this arousal that we experience when our cognitions class clash. So when our behavior contradicts our values or long held attitudes, if we can notice that feeling, that dissonance, that psychological dissonance, that's an alarm. I don't know of any research demonstrating that people can become sensitized to that state. But I feel like I have been and I do feel I like everyone else have fallen short of my values in certain situations where I just regretted it later. But I do feel like even in those moments I had that kind of feeling of inside of me that this just isn't right. And I think in a lot of cases, if we can kind of recognize that and pull back, take what I call or what, what Sonia Libra Mercy calls a psychological timeout, psychological time where you pull back from the situation, take a sort of pause, that can really help us to get perspective. And I go into a lot of examples of these wise interventions that help us to achieve this sort of psychological timeout in which we hold back on the situation and get perspective again. Those include one of my favorites, these sort of Values Affirmations, which is cross cut as an example of a powerful intervention. Reflecting on our values at times of stress can help us to return to what's most important to us. And we've shown in a few studies, this is with Kevin Binning and David Sherman, that when people reflect on their core values, they're less likely to just go along with their group for the sake of going along. It anchors people in who they are and what they believe in.

But when you say reflecting on your core values, there's an inherent assumption there that your core values are good. What if your core values are bad? Or are you saying that most people are good?

I'm saying most people are good. That's of course people do bad things. Of course. And of course I would say yeah, there are some, I don't know if I would say bad people, but people who have been sufficiently distorted or damaged that there's something broken inside of. Of course. However, having done this research for decades now, I don't think I've ever read an essay about people's that people have written about their values where it's something sinister almost all the time. Everyone cares about their friends and cares about their family and values. Compassion, values, kindness. These are Basic values that I think most people embrace. Of course, people can become cynical and jaded and inure to these, but I believe that most people, when you ask them about what their core values are, kind of return to these basic human values of compassion, consideration, family.

I have a thought for you. To answer the question that I asked, I think based on reading your book, that if you are belonging to a group that excessively demands conformity, I think the alarm bell should go off.

Great point. Yeah, great point.

Right?

Yeah. Do you feel like your belonging is contingent on subscribing to the views and attitudes of this group? In the book, I call that sort of faux belonging. And for a lot of the extremists that turn, they often have that realization that my belonging here is not unconditional in the least. If I start to deviate from the party line, I'm ostracized. And so I think that's one of the kind of sort of self destructive elements in a lot of hate groups is that they often have this sort of conditional belonging where you really do need to subscribe to the ideology of the group in order to truly belong. It is contingent or conditional. And when they change, it's kind of relieving. When they have these interactions with people who are more understanding across party lines, it's kind of, oh, you know, I'm still accepted, I'm still seen as a human being in spite of these views that I have that are disagreeable.

There's a place in the book where you mention some work you did for Google to help them reduce the belonging uncertainty of women. Unless you're under an NDA, can you just tell me what you did for Google?

I don't recall signing anything, but the intervention that we did was based on research that my close colleague Greg Walton, also at Stanford, and I did many years ago on what we call the Social belonging intervention. As an otherwise intervention. And to take a step back, what this intervention was designed to do was to alleviate what we call belonging uncertainty. So what is belonging uncertainty? Belonging uncertainty is pretty much what the term suggests. It's a state of mind in which we're uncertain of our belonging and we all experience it in one situation or another. It could be going to a party where you don't know people, or meeting a stranger, or starting a new job or going to college. In those situations, we may be uncertain of our belonging in the sense of just not knowing if this is a place where I can or even want to belong. And so Greg and I called this belonging uncertainty. And it's it's a basic statement I remember experiencing as an assistant professor years and years ago, just feeling like I was the most inadequate professor on campus. And in the state of mind, all of a sudden, little things start to loom very large. For example, my chair came up to me one day, patted me on the shoulder and said, how's that class going? And I'm like, did he hear something about my class? Does he think something that's not going too well? So when you're in this uncertainty state of mind, you're always hypothesis testing, do I belong? Do I not? And so even like little, like little facial expressions with the people we're with start to tilt the scale in one direction or another. Belonging certainty. We all experience it, but certain of us experience it more so than others in certain situations. And for members of historically excluded groups such as women in science, minorities in school, and many workplaces for that matter, men in certain professions, the service industry, for instance, that belonging uncertainty is often chronic because of widely known stereotypes that cast people as not belonging. So if I'm in a school or in a workplace where I'm subjected to these negative stereotypes about me or my group, it can prolong and deepen the experience of belonging uncertainty. So what Greg and I did was a study was designed, this intervention that we worked really hard at to conquer baloney uncertainty, or at least turn down the volume on it for first year college students. And what we did, to make a long story short, is first, we identified people at this liminal space as they're entering a new world. So this was college freshmen. And what we did with these college freshmen, who often experience acute belonging uncertainty, especially if they belong to minority, ethnic minority group, is to share with them some information. We gave them the results of a survey that we had done with upperclassmen or senior students at their school. And the survey revealed to them two things. First, that most of these senior students reported that at the time they entered college, they felt like they didn't belong, that this was something that was very normal. And then the second thing that the survey conveyed is that for most of these individuals, that sense of belonging uncertainty diminished with time. That with time, people started to feel at home. And what those messages convey are two very sort of powerful sources of resilience. One is, it's normal, you're not alone. That's a very psychologically powerful message. And then the second message is, this too will pass. This too will pass. So this kind of optimistic or hopeful message, we buttressed that those statistics from an actual Survey with stories that the seniors told about the adjustment process, what they went through and how they came to build connections at school. But it took time and how they did it. And then we found that as a result of this intervention, this sort of again, what we call the social belonging intervention, the students, the minority students who received it, in this case, the first study we did was with African American students ended up with higher grades, not only at the end of the semester, but during their entire tenure at college. So even four years later, as a result of this one hour experience, they were getting better grades and it even closed the racial achievement gap in grades by roughly 50%. Not only that, but years later, when these students went off to work to start new jobs, they were more satisfied and had a higher sense of purpose at their jobs. So something about this early experience that we gave them was embryonic. It planted a seed of belonging that grew with time. Since then, this intervention, the social belonging intervention, has been applied nationwide to many different groups. Jeffrey Borman did a study with students in middle school and found that it benefited their grades and discipline rates across ethnicity and across gender. Because again, middle schools, this time of acute belonging uncertainty, where these kinds of interventions should apply to everyone going through that difficult transition. And then to circle back to your question, many years later, we helped Google to develop a similar intervention intervention for Googlers. Just making clear that becoming a Googler, I think that's what they call it, is hard at first. A lot of times people feel really burnt out and like an imposter. But that's pretty normal. And with time and with strategy, things get better. And what they found as they reported to us, is that this eliminated the drop in job morale among new female employees over nine months. So all this is to show that the stories we share, disclosures that the kind of sharing vulnerabilities through stories can often have a very powerful long range effect. Little things can go a long way. And of course one thing I do want to make clear, of course none of these things are panaceas or curalls. People have to be in a nurturing environment for this kind of intervention or any kind of intervention to work. If I start to feel optimistic and I put myself out there and then I'm slammed down, rejected, or my advisor doesn't write me back, or a professor doesn't open the door when I knock, these things will counteract the effect of any kind of wise intervention. These, these wise interventions are kind of catalysts to open the psychological door to growth.

So as a parent, what should a parent do if your kid joins clearly a destructive group?

Well, I teenagers that is a difficult life stage. And what to do in that situation? I think a lot of things, I think it's hard to say. I think it's hard to say. I think that conversation really works well. Let me sort of back up to some other research. The stuff that I do know and maybe parents can think about how well this applies to the situation you raise the body. Research in this area suggests that one of the most important things we can do with teenagers is to talk with them, not at them. There's actually research on this showing that when you bring teens into the lab and put them on an MRI in an MRI scanner and have them listen to audio clips of their mother complaining about their brains shut off, I mean not really. The regions associated with attention are less active when they experience that situation. So being lectured at, as Kurt Lewin forecasted really is not a powerful persuasive device. What does work well is conversation. So I'll tell you about one study by Judy Harakevich at University of Wisconsin where she wasn't trying to stop disciplinary problems though, though this could potentially be applied to that she was trying to encourage students interest in STEM science, technology, engineering and math. And what she did was just to send some information home to the parents workshop home to parents that guided them to have conversations with their kids about science. So you know, like let's talk about your cell phone and all the science that goes into that. What do you think of that? And gave them like Socratic questions. Just have a conversation rather than lecture at the kids about oh how this is, you know, you really go into science as an important career decision. Instead it was conversation kind of turning over a topic together. And what she found is that this wise intervention actually increased the percentage of students who went who took courses in STEM major and then years later majored in STEM and college. So that's just an example. So talking with teens reaches them more than talking at them. And another study by Chris Bryan offers a somewhat different technique but related in which he was trying to encourage teenagers to eat more healthfully. To eat more healthfully. And rather than lecture at the kids about the importance of eating healthfully, what he did was something a bit more devious. So what he did was to connect the issue of healthy food to teenagers values. And he did this by telling the kids that the fast food industry was very interested in manipulating them to make a profit. And that advertising for McDonald's and Coca Cola that seeks to make it corn pool to eat their foods or drink their drinks was actually the result of these profiteers in these companies trying to manipulate them in ways that were not good for their self interest. And this actually brilliantly appealed to the teenager's interest in rebellion and challenging authority. And what he found is that this intervention where he connected the topic of healthy food to resisting evil influences, he also connected it to the kids sense of purpose. Bill Damon does this research, most of this research suggests have a sense of purpose. They want to make the world a better place. They just don't know how to realize those values. So what Chris also did was to connect this topic of healthful eating to these values of making the world a better place through the food choices that we make. And he found that that intervention had lasting effects on kids consumption of healthy food. They were less likely to buy chips in the cafeteria, more likely to buy fruit, less likely to buy soda. So that's another example. I think with this kind of circling back to your question, all kind of converges on is the value of conversation and not underestimating. Teenagers desire to do good and to be good, but many times they need help connecting those values to concrete behaviors, as we all do. We all can get a little bit lost drifting away from our values. But through conversations and through these sort of participatory interventions, we can help people to better align their behaviors with who they are and what they believe. And oftentimes that does lead to better decision making.

I have one last question for you.

Sure.

By the way, I just thought I'd mention this to you that on this podcast I have interviewed Bob Cialdini twice. David Aker, David Aker's daughter.

Oh, wow.

Katie Milkman, Scott Galloway, Angela Duckworth, John List. I'm in the kind of the social psychology, behavioral economics. That's my vein. Right. And I'll tell you that no one has cited as many many studies as you. I think you've cited more studies than all those people combined. And there's an assistant producer who works on this podcast who double checks the transcript is accurate. And one of the things she has to do is when you rip off some name of some psychologist, she has to go figure out who was that? How do you spell that? What's the right person's name for the transcript? This is going to be a nice nightmare for her.

Oh no. But.

Because you cite so many things, you're the Wikipedia of psychology. So let's suppose that Joe Biden calls you up. This is Jeff. This is not about me getting reelected. This is not about me maintaining democratic majority in Congress or anything. This is just as one American to another American about uniting America. Jeff, what should we do? He wants to bring you on as the Secretary of belonging. What do you do?

I'm a big fan of these town hall meetings and these organizations that promote conversations between citizens of different political stripes. Deliberative democracy being one better, angels being another. These experiences in which people of different political stripes sit down with one another, break bread together, are often revealing and can change people. There's a lot of research showing that this kind of experience where you're sitting down face to face in interaction with individuals from an out group can be highly, highly beneficial in terms of breaking down prejudice, for instance. But the interactions need to be highly structured. What's often good is if the conversations are made cooperative, like there's some sort of cooperative goal, and they're structured so that there's turn taking and especially the sort of face to face contact seems to be really key. And there's a good facilitator, what's called a Democratic leader, to prevent the conversations from going off the rails while also helping each other party to feel that they're expressing their views. These kinds of conversations actually really work wonders and have very positive effects. So I think funding and making those kinds of conversational forums throughout the country more available, more easy to participate in, would be a great step as well as door to door canvassing. I mean, I was, I was reading that door to door canvassing actually played a big role in the abolitionist movement before the Civil War. Yeah, that people go, went door to door canvassing, face to face interactions, talking to people across political lines, as the Brukman and Kahler research shows, is another great way to bridge divides. The conversations, of course, have to be structured and they have to be participatory and they can't be lecture style and they need to be affirming. But if they are, they can have remarkable effects now. There's just not enough resources, there's not enough funding, there's not enough practice infrastructure to provide those kinds of experiences throughout the nation. But I think we could do that, we could start to do that, create these forums. The people I've talked to often do crave these kinds of interactions, getting to know people, even across party lines. But increasingly we're becoming, it's becoming harder to do that because we're so segregated and there's so much division. But I do think that these small scale interventions, if we can scale them up and make them more available and accessible to citizens throughout the country. Those are our best bet because they humanize us to each other and we see our common humanity.

So there you have it. How to build connections and bridge divides. Coming to you from the Graduate School of Education, Stanford University, the remarkable Jeffrey Cohen. I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is remarkable people. My thanks to my remarkable staff. Peg Fitzpatrick, Jeff C. Shannon Hernandez. The drop in Queen of Santa Cruz. Madison. Nismer, Alexis. I'm applying to college now. Nishimura and Luis Magana. Until next time, mahalo and aloha. This is remarkable people.