https://www.listennotes.com/e/9003de59e1f4401a8a2bd7a1f318e8c1

Here on Remarkable People, we know that complexity can be the enemy of efficiency. That's the philosophy behind Freshworks. While legacy software stacks can slow teams down, Freshworks builds intuitive tools that can help your team do their best work without the clutter. And when it comes to AI, it's not about replacing humans, it's about amplifying what makes us remarkable. If you want server software that delivers real results, check out fresh servers for it and fresh desk for customer support. Learn more@freshworks.com In my years of entrepreneurship, I've seen countless startups. And here's the truth: smart spending drives growth, which is something Brex has championed. Brex isn't just a corporate credit card. It's a strategic tool to help your company achieve peak performance, corporate cards, banking, expense management, all integrated on an AI-powered platform that turns every dollar into opportunity. In fact, 30,000 companies are trusting Brex to help them win. Go to brex.com/grow to learn more.

The most successful social video I ever produced for Disney, and it was still the most successful one we ever produced, was because I refused to go through the approval process, which was, I'm sure if it had gone wrong, I'm sure to be fired, but sometimes you have to stand up in what you believe for. I loved Disney because if you had a big idea, somebody would fund it for you.

I have to say that of the 260 guests we've had on this podcast, you have by far the best background behind you.

And it's real, it's drawn, it's painted, so it's not one of those fake backgrounds. Well, I worked for this guy for 30 years. I finished as head of innovation and creativity. Disney, Pixar, Lucasfilm, Marvel. But it didn't start that way. I started as a coffee boy in the London office. I used to go and get my boss six cappuccinos a day from Bar Italia on Fleet Street. And about three weeks into the role, I was told I would be the character coordinator. That's the person that looks after the characters that walk around. At the Royal Premiere of who Framed Roger Rabbit in the presence of the Princess of Wales, Diana. I was like, what do I do? They said, well, you stand at the bottom of the stairs, Roger Rabbit will come down the stairs, the Princess will come in along the receiving line, she'll greet him or she'll blow him off. How could you possibly screw that up? Well, that was the day when I found out what a contingency plan was, because I don't know, a contingency plan would tell you if you're going to bring a very tall rabbit with spectacularly long feet down a giant staircase towards the Princess of Wales, you might want to measure the width of the steps first. So I hadn't. Roger trips on the top step and he's now hurtling like a bullet head of feet directly down the stairs towards Diana's head, whereupon he was met in midair by two royal protection officers who just took him out. There's a very famous picture of Reuters of Roger going back like this, two Secret Service heavies diving towards him in a suit, and a 21-year-old PR guy from Disney in the back going, ah, shit, I'm fired. so I got a call the next day from a place called Burbank, which I'd never heard of, from somebody called a CMO, didn't know what they were either. I thought, I was gonna tell him, and all I heard was, that was great publicity. I was like, I can make a career out of this. And so basically, my God, years at Disney, I did. I got to have some of the more mad, audacious, outrageous ideas. That's kind of what I did.

Well, Madison, I, I think that that was probably the the best start of a podcast in the history. They're remarkable people. Usually, usually, Duncan, we like to introduce the guests, but, you know, we gotta get out of that box and let the guests.

Yeah.

Tell their own story.

Yeah.

When people ask me to, they want.

Me to read my bio when I get up on the stage and was. Do you remember the Charlie Brown cartoons? Remember the principle? I was. Don't read the bio, please. So I always do two truths to the light. And the funny thing is, when you get off the stage, you think, oh, this person's coming up to me, they're going to ask me a really important question. They go, oh, they just want to know which one was the lie.

Okay, so clearly we are not going to do a traditional introduction. So, you know, I have to ask you this dumb question, but man, what was it like to work at Disney? I mean, was it like being the Super Bowl MVP and every year you go to Disneyland? What was it like?

I hosted pretty much all of those guys. My job was, this was in the days before contracts, so you literally at the end of the game, you had to get onto the field at the end of the game, grab the MVP, but everybody else was yanking your cameras and your cameramen and throwing them all over the place. So your job was just get to the MVP, get the lion and go to Disney World, get them on the corporate jet and fly them down to Disney World. That sounds easy, but except there's the MVP who doesn't want to go with you, they want to go drinking somewhere. So I got separated on the field from my cameraman. and he comes on the radio and goes, where are you? I said, I'm on the pitch at the halfway line. And somebody else goes, I think he means he's on the field at the 50 yard line. Yeah, whatever. So I worked for basically for, I suppose, 50% of my career was with Michael Eisner and 50% with Bob Iger. But Roy Disney was still there all the time and I loved Roy and John Lasseter. They were the old school, but the old school were just, they had less corporations. We got so tight and tidy and pretty now. I think they pushed boundaries more. I admired them both because they broke the rules. The most successful social video I ever produced for Disney, and it was still the most successful one we ever produced, was because I refused to go through the approval process, which was, I'm sure if it had gone wrong, I'm sure it would have been fired. But sometimes you have to stand up in what you believe for. I loved Disney because if you had a big idea, somebody would fund it for you. And I love working for Michael in particular, because every time he walked in the door, he was always respectful, very courteous, but he'd say, you know what? We're the world's number one entertainment company. Come back when you've got something that scares me. You're like, Come on in. All right, bring it. And so it was great. And working with Bob was also fascinating because here comes Pixar, Marvel, Lucas Films, ESPN, ABC, and suddenly you've got all these cultures who are very unique, who, but the challenge was everybody was better than everybody else. And so the task that Bob gave me was how might we embed a culture of innovation and creativity into everybody's DNA. So the first thing I did was hire somebody else who knew what they were doing. I said, make me look good. They were a consultant. They were never around for execution, but they were never going to show me what, how they did what they did, or they were frightened I wouldn't hire them again. Model number two, I'll be in charge of innovation creativity. What could possibly go wrong? Well, it's kind of like having a legal team or a marketing team or a sales team. When you have an innovation team, you've kind of told everybody else you're off the hook, so that model failed. The accelerator program, we bring in some young tech startups and take a 50-50 stake in their business. For them, we could scale. That's what Disney does. For them, they could help us bring products and services to market much quicker than we normally did. But we failed in Bob's overall goal, which was how might we embed a culture of innovation and creativity into everybody's DNA? And so I asked 5,000 people, I said, what were the biggest barriers to being more innovative and creative where you work? Number one, don't have time to think. Number two, we don't have the resources. Number three, we say we're consumer and client-centric, but we measure by quarterly results. Number four, our ideas seem to get stuck, diluted or killed as they move through the approval process. And number five, we all had a very different definition of creativity. So I set out to create a toolkit that has three principles. Takes the BS out of innovation and makes it more accessible to normal, hard-working people. Makes creativity tangible for people who are uncomfortable with ambiguity. you are team great. Far more importantly, make it fun. Give people tools they choose to use when you and I are not around. So I was with Disney for 30 years. I got the Jiminy Cricket thank you for 30 magical years of service bronzer. And I looked at it and I thought, shit, I'm nearly dead. I've got to do something else. So I left and I went home to England for a while. I sat in the pub and felt sorry for myself. I thought, okay, what do I do now? And somebody said, could you come and give a speech? Sure. Yeah. And it just took off. But see, I am the antithesis of so many other people. The word the creatives drives me nonsense. I'm sorry, it just does. I know some people are better at writing stories, some people are better at writing music, some people are better at acting. I believe everybody's creative. When you were a kid and you were given a gift for Christmas, it came in a huge box. It took you ages to take the toy out of the box. Why don't you spend the rest of the week playing with the box? It was your rocket ship, it was your force, it was your creative. But here's the challenge. Here comes AI. And I was working with the program, the engineer on their DeepMind project. And I asked her, I said, how am I going to compete with what you do and what you're creating? She said, well, she believed the most employable skill sets of the near term will be the ones that would be the hardest for her to program into AI. What are they? Well, the ones with which we're born. We're born with imagination. We're born creative. We're born curious. We used to ask why, why, why again. We're born with NPM. We're born with intuition. Will they be programmed one day? I don't know the answer, but in the short term, probably not. But the problem is that we go to school. And the first thing our first grade teacher tells us to do is don't forget to color in between the lines. And then they say, stop asking why, because there's only one right answer. So I did a talk at a university had three thousand students at University Age, so I brought in one first grade class of thirty little or six year olds, and sat them in the middle with their teacher. I said Hands up here W'sreative? Me, me, me, meme. Af thirty little hands shon'ed de The other three thousand stayed down. We are taught that we are not creative. By the time we're eighteen most people have given up. And yet here comes AI, which will doubtless take away many roles, but create new ones. But what have we got left? I genuinely gate the things with which we were born.

Duncan, has anybody ever told you that you need to come out of your shell and learn to express yourself?

And I haven't had a drink yet.

Okay, if you don't mind, I'd like to ask a few questions in my podcast.

Okay.

So I want to hear about the. The philosophical. impact of Disney calling people guests, not customers. What's behind that?

There's a tool I call How Else. How by simply reframing a challenge, can you get people to stop thinking the way they always do and give them permission to think differently? So we'll try an experiment and then I'll answer your question. Where do you live, by the way?

I live in Watsonville, California.

Santa Cruz. So if I was coming to Watsonville and you and I were going to open a car wash together, Tell me if you would, what are the three essential ingredients, three or four things we must have in a car wash?

I would say good Wi-Fi is number one.

Wi-Fi, all right. Okay.

And then obviously you have to have the car really clean. And I would say the third thing.

Is that... Well, the essential ingredients.

The essential ingredients is your car comes out clean and then while you're waiting for it, you're somewhat entertained and I would say that's about it. Maybe there's a third, the third one would be that I hope that the water and the resources are being effectively recycled. We're just not polluting.

Okay, so now you and I are venture capitalists. We've been invited to open a new franchise of auto spas. Who are a spa? What have you seen in this spa? What would you like to see in your auto spa? Anything you want? What would you love to have in your auto spa?

I think what you're trying to say is that, if you define it as car wash, you think of just the rollers and the sprays. But if you say auto spa, you think of manicure, pedicure, massage. You think of hippie music, you think of relaxation, you think of zen. You're not thinking of... And that's exactly how... Just getting your toenails cut.

That's exactly how Walt used the tool. He said, look, July 17, 1955, when he opened the doors to Disneyland. which has come out for a 70th in a couple of months. Now I feel old. He said, We will not have any customers in our park. We will only have guests. We will not have any employees. We'll only have cast members. They'll be cast for a role in the show. They'll wear a costume, not a uniform. They'll work on stage, not backstage. With that simple re-expression of the relationship between the employee and the customer as the cast member and the guest, Walter created a culture of hospitality that's rarely been repeated elsewhere. Fast forward, how is it actually used in business today? In 2011, if we'd asked the question, how might we make more money, we'd have put the gate price up at Walt Disney World. People would have complained. They'd have still come. We'd have made our quarterly results. You don't get to iterate in a post-pandemic world. So instead of saying, how might we make more money, we reversed the challenge. I said, how might we solve the biggest consumer pain point? Everybody knew what it was. It was called standing in line. And I said, well, what if there were no lines? Didn't know how to do it. Again, if you know how to do it, you're iterating. If it scares you a bit, you're innovating. So we used another tool, which is about looking outside. I believe a lot of the insights for innovation come from looking outside of your industry. And we found a very small pharmacy in Tokyo, Japan, that used RFID technology to enable people not to stand in line when they came to pick up their prescriptions. Bing! Welcome to the world of Disney's Magic Band. I'm not wearing one today. Oh, wait a minute. Yes, I am. Here we go. So they come in red or gray in the mail? Yes, of course they do. Why? Because you're like gray to the Star Wars Edition or the Mickey Jedi Edition. Does it come in matching merchandise? Of course it does. This is my room key. I don't check in or check out of a Disney resort. today. It's my theme park ticket, the turnstiles are gone, my reservations for my favorite character meet and greets, my favorite rides, I can pay for food with it, I can pay for merchandise with it. I walk into the restaurant when I want to walk in and the food comes fresh to me. Had we started by saying how might we make more money, we'd have made a 3% profit margin. But by reversing the challenge and saying how might we solve the biggest consumer pain point, the average guest at Walt Disney World today has over two hours free time they didn't have each and every day. six years ago. What does that result in? Record intent to recommend, record intent to return. And what is it you lovely people do with your free time at Disney theme parks? Spend money. One of the biggest single revenue generating ideas Disney ever created. And what's the consumer doing every second of every day? They're crowdsourcing the future of every product and service Disney creates by telling them what they like and what they don't. And it comes in themed merchandise.

I swear, I have my list of questions and I was going to ask you about this wristband case. So is this something that if you go back, it was like somebody in innovation thought of it or was it security thought of it or the hotel lobby staff thought of it? Like what was the genesis of this?

Well, the genesis was how might we stop people from standing in line? And when you're hosting 25 million guests a year, that's going to be tricky. And so we looked in the theme park industry, but nobody was solving the issue. So this tool is about where in the world has somebody already solved the challenge of of people not standing in line. So you look outside of your industry and borrow about the underlying principle and that's how we found the pharmacy. But I will tell you, there's another story not specific, not pertains to the Magic Band, but it is all about, I love Ed Catmull. He always said creativity doesn't follow job titles, it just comes from where it comes from.

I love the Naive Expert.

Actually, do you have a pen and a piece of paper? Yes, I do. Good. All right, come on in. So the Naive Expert, who or what is a Naive Expert? They are somebody who doesn't know what you're working on. what does that give them permission to do that you can't? Well, they can ask the silly question that you're too embarrassed to ask in front of your colleagues. They can throw out the audacious idea ungoverned by your river of thinking. I define our river of thinking. And the more experience, the more expertise we have, the more reasons we know why the new idea won't work. So we constantly shoot it down. So I always bring in an expert. We were designing a new retail, dining and entertainment complex for Hong Kong Disney in the room that day were the Disney Imagineers, the people you would expect. But on that particular day, I was faced with 12 white male American architects over 50. So I brought in a young girl from China. Why? She was female, not male. Under 20.

This is the dim sum girl.

Right. Exactly right. So hang on. So I gave them the same challenge I'm going to give you now then. So I give you seven seconds to draw a house. Go. Come on. Seven. Come on, draw that house, guy. Come on. Seven. Six. Five. Four. Three.

Two.

I know. See, if if you'd drawn it, I know it's gonna look like this. So here's the thing. Everybody drew this except the young female Chinese chef. She drew. Let's see if I've got a picture of it over here. Let's see. Oh, here we go. She gave him some architecture. Why wouldn't she? She's a young female Chinese chef. Never occurred to her to draw the house the same way we would. On the way out the door, somebody put a post-it note over her drawing that simply said, distinctly Disney authentically Chinese. Several years later, the strategic brand position that guided the entire design of the Shanghai Disney Resort, distinctly Disney, authentically Chinese. The point is this, and companies don't understand it. Diversity is innovation. If somebody doesn't look like you, they don't think like you, and that shockingly enough, they can help you think differently. And I believe that sometimes we get the leadership meeting, well, for goodness sake, invite in somebody who's not a leader, some young 28 superstar who's been on touchscreen technology since the day they were born, virtual reality since the day they were five and they've been on ChatGPT for a year longer than any of us. But we don't because why do we do leaders and leaders? Because that's the way we've always done it here. Maybe think about it differently.

Every business is under pressure to save money. But if you want to be a business leader, you need to do more to win. You need to create momentum and unlock potential, which is where Brex comes in. Brex isn't just another corporate credit card. It's a modern finance platform that's like having a financial superhero in your back pocket. Think credit cards, banking, expense management, and travel all integrated into one smart solution. More than 30,000 companies use Brex to make every dollar count towards their mission, and you can join them. Get the modern finance platform that works as hard as you do at brex.com/grow. I see a lot of companies where there's like a chief innovation officer, there's a department of innovation, there's R&D specifically tasked with innovation. But it should Could everybody in the company be thinking creatively and innovation or just these people who are supposed to task be tasked with this?

The creatives, oh, give me a break. There was a lady, I won't go through the whole story. So we were doing a strategic pricing session surrounded by the EVPs, the SVPs and the gods from Mount Olympus had joined us for a day. How might we make more money? And they were all strategists and future planners and accountants and finance. So I invited in Maggie. Well, who's Maggie? Maggie was a 78 year old cast member from our call center. Now why would I invite Maggie into a strategic pricing session? Let me think. She spends eight hours a day talking to our guests at the call center and we don't. So we were just chatting during the lunch break and I said to her, Maggie, why do you do this? You're 78, you should be retired. She goes, well no dear, my husband passed away a few years ago and this keeps me company and I like making people happy. I said, oh you lovely person. I said, if you don't mind my asking, what do you not like about your job? She goes, oh that's easy dear, my boss. I said, Hang on a minute, why don't you like your boss? She goes, He makes me get off the phone. It's obvious she's there for the gossip and the chat. I said, if you don't mind my asking, how many people do you book in a shift? She goes, For every 20 calls I get, I'll probably book a convert one of those phone calls to a Walt Disney World vacation. I said, Is that good or bad? I don't know how to think about it. She goes, I reckon I could get three or four out of 20 if people would trust me. I was like, Maggie, you're a grandmother. Everyone trusts you. You work for the most trusted brand on the planet. She goes, no, dear, they don't. I said, why not? she said, oh, we've got this policy called guest request and suggest. I said, oh, God, who came up with that title? So I said, what's that? She said, if the consumer is online, and let's say it's the Valentine's Day offer, let's say you have to travel, book in January, travel in February, you get free character breakfast with Anna and Elsa. She said, if the consumer doesn't mention that offer in those three specific bullet points first, I'm not allowed to mention it. My intuition was like, Ah, sound good. So we went off to meet the head of strategic pricing, and yes, I should have been a bit more diplomatic in my response. I said, Tell me about guest requests don't suggest. And he said, It's worth X million dollars in incremental revenue. And I said, what? By cheating people? Probably didn't come quite out the right way. And he said, We're not cheating people. We just don't make the offer first. I said, Listen, Maggie here reckons she could get three or four out of 20. You would take her out of your policy. Could you think we could take six of her colleagues out of your policy for six weeks to see how they perform? Six weeks later, they were all booking three or four out of 20. the policy went away and Disney made X amount of dollars in incremental revenue. I am a great believer, though, ideas come from anywhere. I was head of the innovation department. I think that was a mistake.

You spend a lot of time in your book talking about no because as opposed to yes and. So now, I understand the concept there, but can you just tell us, how do you walk the fine line? you cannot say yes to everything. You cannot say no to everything either. So how do you decide what's yes or no? I'm very clear in my signaling.

I say, this is an expansionist session today. We will be having a reductionist session. But today we're expansionist. And in this session, you don't get to say no because. And I don't let people say no because I make them stand up just like an alcoholic and say, I'm a reductionist. And we all laugh and cheer and they sit back down again. You must clearly signal what you're looking for from people today. as long as they know they'll have the opportunity to evaluate the ideas later on, they'll stay with you on the yes end. I also think a physical room is very important. Steve created it first at Pixar, these rooms like the greenhouse or the Toy Story room, rather than room 3450. I mean, come on, you could have the Death Star room. And these physical signals to everybody that when we're in this room, we don't get to shoot ideas down. The challenge for all of us is the more experience and the more expertise, the more reasons we know why the new idea won't work. So we constantly shoot it down. So I actually have an exercise that I do when actually, do you want to play? Why not? Okay, so are we going to do a Star Wars party or a Harry Potter party?

What would you prefer?

Star Wars. All right, so I'm going to come at you with some ideas for Star Wars party. I'd like you to start each and every response with the words you know you've heard every day, no because, and then you'll tell me no because and tell me why not. So I was thinking we can actually take over some. Oh, that. The new blimp, the Good Year, they're coming out with that new blimp again. And we could turn it into the Death Star and we could have a.

Death Star canteen with food and wine from Hoff and the boo and Tatooine.

And now I'm supposed to say no because.

And come up with. Tell me why not.

Yeah.

Okay. No, because the blimp cannot hold that many people.

People will be waiting for hours in line to get on the blimp. All right, fair. But I tell you what, then we do it at Disneyland, at Galaxy's Edge.

And everybody could come dressed in their favorite Tall people could be Vader and.

Small people will be Ewoks. That'd be great.

Well, then security will go crazy because everybody will look like Darth Vader and how do we know one of them isn't a criminal?

Fair point. What if we just did a 24 hour movie marathon and people could get free cocoa and popcorn?

Well, how many people can really take a 24 hour kind of movie marathon? Yeah, it sounds great on paper, but how many people actually do it?

All right, so we'll stop there. Now we're gonna do the exercise again. This time I want you to start each and every response with the words yes and and we'll just build on each other's idea as we go.

Can we do Harry Potter?

Sure. Cool. So I'm gonna come at you with some ideas for a Harry Potter party. I'd like you to start each and every response with yes and and build on the idea. So I was thinking we could come to your house, put a sorting hat inside the front door and all the good people get the Gryffindor party and.

All the dark, mysterious people get the Slitherin party. Yeah. And then we could have this Quidditch contest and I have a Bocce court. We could convert it to some kind of Quidditch court and have everybody flying.

Around in their brooms. Yes, Dan, we could, yeah, put, I mean, that one of those anti-gravity chambers.

Where they could actually fly.

Yeah. All right, so we'll stop there. Listen, a lot more laughter, a lot more energy than most of us became Italian for the first time. In the first exercise, do you think our idea was getting bigger or smaller as we were going through the Star which direction was it? Smaller. And with the Harry Potter idea, were we getting bigger or smaller?

Bigger and bigger, yes.

Now we have colleagues and clients and constituents to bring on board with our ideas at work. Sometimes it's hard, the bosses and colleagues, et cetera. By the time we just finished building.

The Harry Potter idea together, whose idea.

Was it by the time we finished? I hope all of us. Exactly. Yes and has the power to turn a small idea into a big one really quickly. We can always value engineer a big idea back down. but far more importantly inside any organization is the power to transfer my idea to our idea and accelerate its opportunity to get done. That is the value of Yes And. But I want to come back to when I ask people who are the most creative people you ever met, people always say kids. And then you ask, what do kids do better than you? I say play. And then I'll ask people, who's encouraging playful at work every day? And nobody puts their hand up. So let me ask you a question. Close your eyes. We're going to play a word association game. I want you to shout out the key words.

I have to violate HIPAA here, Duncan. I am deaf and I'm listening through you through a cochlear implant. And I'm also seeing a simultaneous transcription. So if I were to close my eyes and just depend on audio.

Got it.

I probably won't understand what you're saying.

So keep your eyes open. But I just want you to shout out the first word that pops into your mind. when I ask you the following question: Where are you usually? And what are you doing when you get your best ideas?

I am surfing and it is between sets, so I have nothing to do but think.

So people will say, surfing, jogging, walking, playing, exercising in the park, in the forest. And do you know I've done it with up to 20,000 people? And I get them to write it down, that one word. And I say, hands up, who put down at work? Nobody ever has our best ideas at work. Why not? You remember that classic argument you were in with somebody recently? A bit of a shouting match. angry at each other. You turn to walk away from that argument. And the second you turn to walk away from the argument, what just popped into your head? The second you turn to walk away.

From that argument, what was it?

Well, how I could have wanted. The killer one liner. Yeah, that one perfect, beautiful line. You wished you'd used, but you didn't, did you? No. Why? Because when you're in an argument, your brain is moving at a thousand miles an hour, defending itself. A work, emails, presentations, weekly meetings, compliance training. I hear myself say, I don't have time to think. And when we say we don't have time to think, we're in the brain state called beta. I call it busy beta, where the reticular activating system, much easier remembered as a door between your conscious and subconscious brain, is firmly closed. When that door is closed, you only have access to your conscious brain. So what percentage of our brain is conscious? 13% of our brain is conscious. 87% of our brain is subconscious. But everything is back here to help you solve the challenge that you're working on right now. But when the door is shut, you don't have access to it. So what do I run an energizer. What's an energizer? It's a silly exercise. Why am I doing that? To make you laugh. Why? Because the moment I hear laughter, I know that metaphorically I placed you back in on the surfboard where it is when you have your best ideas. Into the Brain State Science calls alpha. Where the door is just wide enough open between your conscious and subconscious brain. You can still make an informed decision, but you can still have a big idea. I don't expect people to be playful.

Every second of every day. I do expect people to be playful when they're trying to have big ideas.

That'S what children do better than adults.

When I was reading your book and I came to that section about the four states of a brain, when I read Alpha, I said, Guy, you are Mr. Alpha. I am in Alpha when I'm in the shower, when I'm surfing, when I'm driving. Ask Madison, I'm like all Alpha all the time. Can I ask you a question about these four states? Because you brought up a point here I didn't quite understand. So the four states are Alpha, Beta, Theta, and Delta. Now in Theta and Delta, you talked about Edison and dropping a penny and then it woke him up again. And then you talk in the Delta, the dreamy state about Dolly dropping a key and that would wake him up. So I didn't understand why Edison dropping a penny is on Theta and Dolly dropping a key is in Delta. It seems like those are very similar things.

Yes or no. So here's how it works. if you know the expression when the penny drops, that Eureka moment when I get the big idea, it came from Thomas Edison. He used Thoughtful Theta. He used to fall asleep at night seated on an armchair with a tin tray on the floor. The penny was between his knees. He would fall asleep, his muscles would relax, the penny would drop, it would hit the tin tray, and it would wake him up. And he'd write down whatever he was thinking. And we might say, well, that's nuts. I'd never do that. Well, who had more painted inventions in the 20th century than anybody else? Darley used fall asleep against his easel. As he fell asleep, he'd fall over and that would wake him up and he would sketch whatever he was dreaming because I want to be smoking before he went to bed. But he's not one of those. But the neither of them were unsuccessful is we're one of those people who gets our best ideas as we're falling asleep or waking up. A, keep a notepad by the bed because you promise yourself you won't forget it by six o'clock in the morning. Far more importantly, when you're working with your colleagues, I hear so often clients will come to me and say, could you solve something something in two hours. You're like, yeah, right, sure. And the door was shut because we're stressed. And so the door between our conscious and subconscious being firmly stressed, brief it in a week or two in advance. Give people time to go wherever they are, whether they're in the shower, whether they're falling asleep, whether they're in dreamy Delta, which is way in the middle of the night. So Theta is the difference in answer to your question between Theta and Delta is Theta is just as you're beginning to wake up in the morning or just as you're nodding off at night. Delta is the doors are off. Riding pink ponies and unicorns through the universe at three o'clock in the morning. Probably not the best brain state for creativity at work. I find the best brain state for creativity at work is the one that you live in, which is alpha.

How do we get there by being playful? I want you to answer that question. How do you get to alpha? I don't have a problem getting to.

Alpha, but how do other people get a problem? There's a series of them in the book. They're called Energizers. They are 60 second x. When I walk into a room, the first thing I do is stand there and say, hands up who's creative. About 3% of the audience will put their hands up. So then I get them to stand up in pairs and I tell person A they are the leading designer of Parachutes for Elephants. Person B they're a news reporter. They have to interview person A about how they get their job done. And for the next two minutes you just stand back and listen to the laughter in the room. All I'm doing is opening the door between their conscious and subconscious brain and putting them back in wherever it is when they have their best ideas, when they're in amazing alpha. That's what the Energizers are for. They are playfulness with purpose. And again, ask us who are the most creative people we ever met? Kids. What do they do? Play. This is not rocket science.

I have to tell you, Duncan, that I'm almost afraid to admit this because people in California might go crazy when I tell them this, but I take three showers a day and I'm thinking in those showers all the time and I surf once a day.

An idea factory.

Yeah, ask Madison, am I an idea factory or not?

Yes, very much so. Always new ideas.

And Madison always says, no, because.

Madison, yes, Angel, yes, Ann, come on.

I'll work on it. Madison is my beta, between my alpha and her beta. Unstoppable team. Yeah. I would love to find out, like, do you even think it's possible or does it merit doing this? But how do you measure creativity?

That's a tough one. I know how to measure an idea. Would that help?

Yeah, that's close enough.

So, you know, at the end of the brainstorm, we finished the brainstorm and we're told we can put our three purple dots on the three ideas we like the most the best. So we read all of the ideas and then we look around the room and where's our boss? Oh yeah, they're over there. Where are they going to put their red dots? Oh, idea number 17. So we line up right behind them and we put our idea on our dot on number 17. We tell them how much we liked it too. But guess what? We didn't. And so when the idea goes off to execution, it will get stuck, diluted or killed because the people who are responsible for getting it done were not passionate about it in the first place. So I have a tool called Passionometer. where I allow people to vote anonymously on their favorite ideas. This is voting with your heart. Got nothing to do with the head, nothing to do with strategy. This is the idea that I want to take home and tell my loved ones, I got to work on this. It was one of my ideas. That's passionometer. You want to find out where the passion of the team is first. I can get down from 50 ideas to about eight in a nanosecond doing that exercise, but it is done anonymously. Then I'll share with you this tool that I borrowed with pride from Richard Banfield. I love Richard Branson. When was the last time anybody ever called him a CEO? Never. Yes he is. Of course he is. He's an entrepreneur. He's an entrepreneur. So think of all the things he's launched that failed. Coca-Cola, Virgin Cola, Virgin Vodka, Virgin Massages, Virgin Mobile, Virgin Bride. Yes, Virgin Wedding's got to remember. He uses a tool called Stargazer. So this is about voting with your head, not your heart. Virgin is a very elastic brand, right? Disney is a very non-elastic brand. So Virgin, he's done condoms and space travel and everything in between. So how does Virgin evaluate what new ideas and products and services they should bring to market? I use the same tool, I call it Stargazer. Let's just say for today's argument, is this idea a strategic brand fit? I'm making that up. People would choose their own criteria, obviously. Is this idea embedded in consumer truth. Maybe our target audience today is 21 to 24 year olds. Can I get this idea executed in the next 12 to 18 to 24 months? My boss wants that done. Is it going to make us a bucket load of money? You'll have a financial goal. And is it socially engaging? Is it going to get the 21 to 24 year olds to talk about it on their social media? And all you do is you take each idea and the problem with ideas are they're horribly subjective. You like pink, I like blue, our boss likes yellow. there's a very good chance we'll be doing the yellow idea. All you do is you go around and score the idea. Does it do a poor job, a good job or an outstanding job of being aligned with our brand? It does a pretty good job. Is it going to make us a bucket load of money? Oh hell yes. Is it socially engaging? It's fairly good. Can I get it in the market the next 18 to 24 months? Not a chance. Is it embedded in consumer totes? It does a fairly good job. And then with a different colour for each of the last eight ideas you've got, at some point one idea will rise to the top as a meeting your criteria the most, not the one you like the best. By the way, the other thing that Branson always said was, if it's not a three out of three of embedded in consumer truth and aligned with the Virgin brand, we must have the courage to throw it out. When we were bringing two new Disney cruise ships into market, we were bringing the big ones in. We had to decide where the old ones would go. Like any big corporation that conversation takes too long. And oh Dave's not here today. Oh Sally's not here today. I've got to wait for Sally. No. Or it comes to all the EVPs sitting around and go, do you know what? Last year I went to the Med. It was great. Oh my wife loved the Alaska Cruise. I don't give a toss. We use this tool. We're 16 senior vice presidents of the Walt Disney Company. We made a decision in 59 minutes. And because one of them was, can I actually get a birth in the port in which we want in the next 12 months. And if you can't, you shouldn't be doing it. And it's just great for cutting through all the nonsense. And again, the tools are designed to be simple, powerful, fun.

So just as a little bit of realism here, if you looked at the top of the funnel, when everything was yes and, and the bottom of the funnel, like what percentage gets out and into reality?

That's very fair. So people often ask me what percentage of time they should spend in expansive versus reductive. And so everybody says, oh, 80% expansive. No, it's the opposite. It's 20% expensive, 80% reductive. The hard stuff is getting it done. Having ideas, like you said, hundreds a day. Getting them done through all the corporate approval processes, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. That takes time. And that's where the innovation tools come in. My favorite, as you could probably guess, is the one called what if? Why? Because it's about breaking the rules. So it was a marvelous tool. It was created by Walt Disney for the film Fantasia in 1940. He wanted to pump mist into the theater and heat into the theater and the theater owner said no Walt, too expensive. That's not the way we do it here. So Walt, step one, list the rules of your challenge. So he just wrote down the rules of going to a movie theater. I must sit down, I must be quiet, it is dark, I must go to set time, I must watch the previews. I Walt can't control the environment. Step one, list the rules. Step two, pick one. He chose the environment. And he said, what if I could control the environment? Well, that wasn't audacious enough. The more audacious, outrageous, and provocative your what-if, the further out of your own river of thinking you'll jump. So he said, well, okay, if I can't control the environment inside the theaters, what if I take my movies out of the theater? Don't be daft, Walt. They're two-dimensional, they fall over. What if I made them three-dimensional? How you do that, Walt? What if I just had people dressed as princesses and cowboys? than pirates. People would be more immersed. Yeah, but you can't have Cinderella standing next to Jack Sparrow. People would be immersed in her story. So I said, well, what if I put them in different theme lands? Boom. What if I called it Disneyland? Now, for people watching, it's easy to say, oh, but I don't have the resources. So I'll give you another example. If I give you a big one, give you a small one. There was a very small company in Great Britain in the 60s that used to make glasses that we drink out of. They found too much breakage and not enough production when the glasses were being shipped and wrapped. so they went down to the shop floor, observed the industry and wrote down the rules. 26 employees, conveyer belt, 12 glasses to a box, boxes made out of cardboard, six on the top, six on the bottom, glasses separated by corrugated cardboard, glasses wrapped individually in newspaper. Employees reading the newspaper. So somebody asked the somewhat provocative outrageous WOSSIE question, they said what if we poke their eyes out? That's against the law and it's not very nice, but because they had the courage to ask it, somebody sitting next to him said hang on a minute, why don't we just hire blind people? So they did. Production up 26%, breakages down 42%, the British government gave a 50% salary subsidy for hiring people with disabilities. It's about listing the rules of the challenge, taking one and asking the most audacious, wacky question.

Why didn't they just put newspapers in language that the people didn't read?

Ooh, ooh, see, there you are, an amazing alpha again. Dude, nice one, should have done it in Japanese. okay, but.

Okay, but I asked you a very specific question from the top of the funnel to the bottom. Like, what's a percentage? One out of a hundred, 20 out of a hundred. What. What's the order of magnitude that get through this?

I don't think there's a set percentage. I will tell you, one of the things that helped me get things done was persistence. I was like a bulldog, and I wouldn't let go. If I believed in something long. enough, I would go in it and go. I would drive my boss absolutely mental and I wouldn't give up on it. As I mentioned earlier on that the social video that we produced, which was the most successful social video we ever produced, I refused to go through the approval process. Why? Because the approval process will get everybody from brand strategy touching everything and diluting the content completely. And when we produced the video, somebody said, where's our logo? I said, he's five foot two, he's got a big black I know everybody loves it. Get over yourself. Probably not the best. If you want somebody who stays inside the raw box, that's probably not me. But the percentage of ideas that we came up with Disney that came back out the other end, five percent maybe. Up next on remarkable people. We were tasked by Disneyland Paris to get more people to come more often, spend more money. Our data told us who could afford the brand, who had affinity to the brand, who'd be shopping online. It was a 10 out of 10 of uncoming this year. Well, they hadn't come. So our intuition told us our data was missing something. These people were either liars or procrastinators. So let's go find out.

Thank you to all our regular podcast listeners. It's our pleasure and honor to make the show for you. If you find our show valuable, please do us a favor and subscribe, rate and review it. Even better, forward it to a friend, a big mahalo to you for doing this.

You're listening to Remarkable People with Guy Kawasaki.

How do you feel about these requirements of returning to the office? Do you think that returning to the office increases collaboration or returning to the office is going to kill the alpha state in most?

Think about this for a moment. Who's making that that decision. Oh, the Boomers generation. Yeah, okay, great. Well done, you. And what are you going to do? You're going to lose talent. Because the talented people can leave. They can get a job somewhere else. If they don't need to be there, they don't need to be there. I'm sorry. I just vehemently disagree. As long as you get your job done, I don't care if you're standing on the moon. Here's the biggest challenge facing corporate America in the next five to 10 years. Guess what? Generation Z doesn't want to work for you. You already know it. It terrifies you. How would you stay relevant if this entire generation doesn't want to work for you. Why? Because you've been driven by quarterly results. They're driven by purpose. You think they'll bend to change to you? No, they won't. Just because you had to bend to change your mate to your elders, because you could only tell two people down the park. They can tell the world. So I was asked to give a talk to, let's just call it the largest tool manufacturer about innovation and millennials. So I didn't know anything about this generation in terms of how they reacted with tools. So I went down to Home Depot and Lowe's. hung out in the aisle like some creepy dude. And I was just listening and watching at the point of purchase that we're taking this home. And I went back to this brand who is the largest manufacturer of tools in the United States of America. I said, listen, this generation has never heard of your brand. They didn't mention you once. They didn't mention your products, the hammer, the chisel, the saw. They didn't even talk about the price, but they talked about what's important to them. We're going to remodel our dream kitchen, our dream bathroom, our dream apartment. I said, you, purpose, if you choose to create one, is you could be the brand who helps people build their dreams. You can see the finance guys going, How quickly can we get this guy out of here? I said, well, hang on a minute. If you're the brand who can help people build their dreams, could you be in banking? Yes. Finance, yes. Engineering, yes. Health, yes. Education, yes. Hospitality, sport. You be in any line of it? No, no, we make tools. We're really good at it. In fact, we're going to expand into Mexico and India. They have a great middle class. They will buy our tools. Oh, yeah. Okay, good luck with that. Have we seen the world of 3D printing recently? Right. India bypassed laptop computers and went to mobile phones. Generation Z will bypass tools and go to 3D printing. There's a chap now, I don't know if you saw the CBS special January last year, that's how much impact it had on me. Young guy in his 30s in Texas building houses fully sustainable for $1,500 in five days and the first houses he gave to the homeless. NASA have now employed him to print a landing pad on the moon from which he can print a printer from which he can build housing. If we don't have purpose, I believe Generation Z won't work for us. And if you don't have a new generation of employees, cast members, staff members, then I don't care how successful you are today. You're not going to be around 10 years from now.

I gotta say that if I'm listening to this and I'm buying into this, my first question would be, I'm stuck in this company. It's full of no because and my losses and stuff.

What do I do now? Run to the door, run for the exit.

Literally, you're saying leave.

Well, here's what I do with senior executives. I get them to do that no because, yes and exercise. You can't tell people what to do. They have to do it for themselves. And so people learn different ways. Some people will learn by seeing, some by doing, some by listening. And so I get them to do the no because and the yes and exercise because then they get, oh, I'm a no because. And I tell them, I know you have responsibilities. You're the CEO of you. Just remind yourself. We're not green lighting this idea for execution today. We're merely greenhousing it together using yes and. But I want to come back on those learning abilities for a moment. I can't get you to close your eyes, but we'll try it anyway. How many days are there in September? 30, I would guess. Okay, how did you know? How did you remember? How did you learn it? What did you just think of? What could you see with your metaphorically eyes closed? How did you know there were 30 days in September? Madison, how did you know there were.

30 days in September? Just remembering like a calendar when I was young.

A calendar so Madison can see it. Okay, Guy, how did you remember it?

I did it because I figured there's very few months with 29 days. So it's 30 or 31 and so it's 50-50 so just pick one and you'll be right half at a time.

30% of any audience will do this. 30 days have September, blah, blah, blah and November all the rest. They are auditory learners. How do I know that? They just just told me because how old were they when they learned the rhyme? Six. How do they remember it? Because they heard it. 40% of the audience would do what Madison just did. They go, oh, no, I could just see a candle with a number 30, the word September. They're your visual learners. And then these, but you've never seen anybody do this January, February, March, April, May, June, July, August. These are kinesthetic learners, right? They learn by doing. And when I decided to create a book, I said to the publisher, it's not a book. He goes, what do you mean it's not a book? I said, it's not a book. If it's a book, we why? Because when you see a book in an office, where is it? It's on the coffee table, it's on the bookshelf. That's a waste of money, isn't it? So I decided, okay, what non-fiction book have I ever read where I could read one page today, put the rest of the book down, but know exactly what to do next? I thought, my mum's cookbook, you want shepherd's pie? Say, page 67, Sherry Trifle, page 42. So the book is designed the same way. It says, have you ever been to the contents page? Literally says, have you ever been to a brainstorm where nothing ever happened? Go to page 12. Work in a heavily regulated industry? go to page 42. But it's also designed for our visual kinesthetic and auditory learners. There's QR codes throughout. They're dynamic, so I can change them anytime. For the auditory learners, it's Spotify, but I'll change it to an audiobook over time. For the visual learners, I am now an animated character because I love doing things I haven't done before. So I went into a studio in LA and bounced around with some characters. I teach you how to use the tools inside the imagination board. But for the kinesthetic learners, It is one, I don't know if it's the first, but I don't, I haven't seen another one. It's the first ever fully integrated artificial intelligence book. So you can ask the book questions through the QR code on the back of the book, and the book will answer you. Now, here's the power of AI, right? So I thought, oh, I live in the most litigious country in the planet. So careful now. So I thought, okay, I could just say, how do I use the tool on page 67? Yeah, who cares? I just read the book. Why would I need that? No, you can ask the book, how do I use used the tool on page 67 to sell more orange pencils in the state of Pennsylvania on January the 3rd next year. The book will answer you, but I thought oh, but if they lose money on the orange pencils, they could sue me. So it's like here come the terms and conditions. I love doing things I haven't done before. That's the only thing that excites me. If I know how to do it, I get bored really easily. So the book is it's a toolkit. Now I wanted to give it away for free. The publisher had slightly different ideas. Still want to give it away free for students because these are tomorrow and these are the people being told to stop asking why because there's only one right answer. Don't forget to color between the lines and they're identifying as not created by the time they leave university and that's just sad.

I read your book cover to cover and wow, there's so much in there.

30 bloody years, mate, trying to get into 12 pages. The editor had a field day. So the next book I want to write is called Rolling Back the Ears. It's all the fun stuff that happens behind the magic. to make it happen, like the day I stole the turkey from the President of the United States of America on Thanksgiving Day, or the day I sent my son's Buzz Lightyear into space putting a toy story. That's what I love doing about Disney. What I loved the most was this Henry Ford quote, Whether or not you think you can or think you can't, you're probably right. It was Disneyland's 50th anniversary, the actual anniversary was over, the media were tired of hearing from us, I was like what else do the media have to cover even if they don't want to? Well, Mother's Day falls Thanksgiving and Halloween, et cetera. I said, Tell me about Thanksgiving. And this bloke said, well, the president pardons the turkey. I said, well, hang on, that's the only turkey that doesn't get killed that year. He goes, yeah. I said, Wouldn't that make him the happiest turkey on earth? And everybody goes, oh, don't even go there, dude, because Disneyland is the happiest place on earth. So I'm a great believer, you pick up the phone, you make your pitch. They can laugh, they can say no, they could put phone down, who cares? So I phoned the White House and I got through to the director of communications. I said, what do you do with a turkey? after the party, he says, oh, we give it to the National Turkey Federation. I was like, oh, didn't know we had one. Couldn't give me their number, could you? So I called the president of the National Turkey Federation. I said, what do you do with the turkeys after? He said, oh, we just put them on petting zoo. I said, what can I have? He goes, yeah. I was like, oh, aren't we supposed to negotiate or haggle? Then I found out more about turkeys than you could possibly want to know. Turkeys, when grown to a certain size, have heart attacks and die. I thought, oh, great, you want coverage. The one turkey, pardon by the United States of America is killed by a British PR guy and a stunt for Disney. So in a moment of total and utter stupidity, we've all had those moments in our career which seemed like a good idea at the time. Well, I sent Pilgrim Mickey, the walk around character and the parade music up to the pen, get the turkey kind of acclimatized. And then I phoned the National Turkey Federation. I said, you have told the White House we're taking the turkey, right? He said, no. I said, you have to because we're going to do the Super Bowl spot. Turkey one, you have to, you've just been pardoned by the President. United States of America, what you do next? Gobble, gobble, I'm going to Disneyland. So they phoned back and said, no, the White House is in. I said, oh, great. So then I get a call from our chairman. He said, Duncan, I see you booked the corporate jet for the 23rd of November from Washington, DC to LA. Can you tell me the passenger manifest, please? I was like, well, Jay, I've got a couple of turkeys I need to move. He goes, absolutely not. I said, Jay, this is the second busiest travel day of the year. It's two days before Thanksgiving. If you cancel, we can't get this done. And the president says, we're doing it. He goes, I don't care. We're not doing it. Which I realized why afterwards. I wish he'd just told me. He said, this would be his first request of the corporate jet from Bob, because Bob had just become CEO. And imagine being your first request, I need the corporate jet. What for? A couple of turkeys. So I'm now in my favorite meeting of my 30 years at Disney, 36 people around a table, very serious conversation, animal welfare rights, Corporate Communications, Operations, Entertainment. If the turkey dies halfway down Main Street, USA, will we run out and shroud it? Or will we just look the other way and pretend it didn't happen? So then, God bless America, unbeknownst to any of us, the turkey that travels to the White House travels with a stun double. This is what I loved about Disney. When you said, here's a problem, somebody went, I got you. So this guy called Denny from Entertainment pops up out of nowhere. He goes, Do you remember the old spy movies? The black and white ones? It was like Denny you really want to bring that up right now? He goes, yeah, yeah, remember when the bad guy's running away, the good guy's running away from the bad guy, so he hits the wall and the wall turns around, he's on the other side of it. I said, yeah. He goes, I'll build you one of those. We're going to put turkey one out the front of the float, turkey two out the back. If turkey one goes down, I've got your back. Oh, genius. So now when you think nothing else could possibly go wrong, a couple of weeks to go, bird flu hits the United States of America. Oh, for God's sake. So I phoned up the director of comms at United Airlines I said, come on, we're gonna have a bit of fun with this. And unbeknownst to us, they'd work with the Federal Aviation Authority. So we walk into the airport, and this is back in 2005 now, where the airports used to go to, where the flights were dropped down. And it just came out, instead of United Airlines 253, it just said, turkey one. I was like, oh my God. So then we get on the plane, and they've got postcards in all the seats. This is in honor of today's guests, Marshmallow and Yam, who've been pardoned by the President of the United States of America. on their way to Disneyland. We will not be serving turkey sandwiches in today's flight. We'll be serving ham or cheese. So now we get into the briefing room. And the very first, we did it for seven years. We did it with George Bush and President Obama. George Bush comes in, unbeknownst to any of us, his scriptwriter finds out where the turkeys are going, decides to have a bit of fun at our expense. But nobody told us. And I'm in charge of public relations at the time. So George comes in, he goes, this year Marsh Melo and Yan were a little bit nervous about going back to a place called Frey and Pan Park. I was like, who the hell called it Frey and Pan Park? He goes, so this year the turkeys are going to Disneyland. I was like, oh my God, did the President of the United States of America just, and he goes, not only that, they were served the rest of their days at Disneyland. I was like, oh my God, he said it twice. And then he wrapped up his speech, he said, and not only that, they were served as grand marshals in Disneyland's Thanksgiving Day parade. I was like, I could retire. This is the best day of my life. So the head of entertainment for Disney Parks comes across the room looking really angry. very frustrated. It was like, dude, chill out. This is the best day of my life. He goes, we don't have a Thanksgiving Day parade. I was like, oh, my God. He goes, in order to build you two floats in a couple of days, it's going to cost you a couple of hundred thousand dollars. I said, well, Matt, I don't have any money. The president says we're doing it. So over to you. And two days later, God bless Matt, Marshmallow and Yam came down the street of Main Street, USA at Disneyland as Grand Marshals in Disneyland's Thanksgiving Day Parade. To me, it's the epitome of I love the Thomas Edison quote, whether or not you think you can or think you can't, you're probably right.

I dare you to try this again this November.

Don't go there. Do not.

You and Elon with two turkeys, I can see that.

There's a joke there somewhere. but I'm not going, I'm not reaching for it.

My last question for you is that you mentioned the concept of how to read your customer. Oh, not, I use the C word. How do you read your guest mind? How do you read the mind of your guests?

Yeah, intuition. So if I were to ask people, have you ever stared at the back of the head of somebody you think looks totally hot and that person it's a total stranger. They immediately turn around and look at you to look away really quickly. Well, we've all done it. How did we know? How did they know? We have 120 billion neurons in this brain and 120 million neurons in this brain. The brain with which we, as consumers and as business people, make a lot of our decisions when we say we went with our gut. So what is the power of intuition in an AI dominated world? We were tasked by Disneyland Paris to get more people to come more often, spend more money. Our data told us who could afford the brand, who had to the brand had been shopping online. It was a 10 out of 10 of I'm coming this year. Well, they hadn't come. So our intuition told us our data was missing something. These people were either liars or procrastinators. So let's go find out. So we went to go and live with one of 26 different families for a day. Now, going in hypotheses based on data and data alone was, if we build it, they will come. Well, that's a $250 million capital investment strategy. So you better be right. So we went off to live with.

A series of different families.

Now, let me ask you a question, Guy. Do you have have children?

Four of them.

Okay, so I kind of need you to close your eyes, but not close your eyes. So picture the favorite photograph. It's in your house somewhere. It's a physical photograph. It's that favorite one of your children. It makes you smile every time you think of it. Which room is that favorite photograph in?

It is a picture of me with my children. We're all in wetsuits. We're holding our surfboards.

We just finished surfing. And where were you that day? Where was the photograph taken?

Well, there's two versions of that photo. One is in Waikiki and the other is in Santa Cruz.

But let's say the Waikiki one. Okay, Waikiki one.

And are you comfortable telling us your children's names? Oh, of course. It's Nick, Noah, Noa Amy, and Nate.

Nick, Noah, Noa Amy, and Nate.

How old were they the day the photograph was taken? Oh, something like 22-20 13 and 11.

And how old are they today?

Oh, they are 32-30. I know I'm gonna get this wrong. And that's okay. 21 and 19. Something like that.

So give or take the photograph.

I hope my wife doesn't listen to this.

So give or take the photographs about 12 years old, the one that you just thought. Okay, so I asked the lady that I was living with, I said, How old are your children? The photograph looked like they were 24, 25, 4 or 5. She goes, oh, no, love, they're 24 and 25. So I wrote it down. It's an individual clue. It means nothing at the time. It's an individual data point. So when we got back together, we all had the same data point. When we asked the parent, when I asked you just now, when I asked her how old the children were, they turned out the picture was 20 years older in reality. So my intuition was like, why is that? that. But why did you just pick the one that you just thought of? Why have people who are watching today or listening today, who don't have children, close your eyes and think about that one in your parents house? The dorky one of you from 15 or 20 years ago where you look like a complete and utter dickhead. But it's still there, isn't it? Yes, staring in the face every time you walk in. Why? Why is it still there? So I use the seven whys like a chart. Why, why, why, why, why. The insight for innovation comes on the fifth or sixth why, not the first or same way. And all the moms talked about three moments in time through which a parent and a child must cross. I've been through all three. I know where I was for all three. I knew when I was the day that my son, who was about nine, he had tears in his eyes. He said, are you Santa Claus? And what hurt was behind what he said, I'm not your little boy anymore, daddy. I'm growing up. I know where I was when my daughter was 13, dropped my hand in public for the first time. It's a seminal moment between a father and a daughter. and I'm sure, like me, you know exactly where you were when you had to say to your eldest, goodbye for the very first time in their freshman year of college, and you had to turn around and walk away. And so our going in hypothesis was if we build it, they will come. But what we realized was despite what our data was telling us, there isn't a single mom on the planet that woke up this morning saying, oh, I wonder if Disneyland's got a new attraction this year. But mom wakes up every morning, as she does every day, worried about how quickly her children are growing up and how she wants to make special memories for them. While they still believe, while they still hold my hand, while they're still here. That's the segmented communication campaign. Disneyland Paris, while Johnny still believes. Disneyland Paris while Sarah will still hold your hand. Disneyland Paris where Dave is still here. Drove a 21% incremental attendance to the parks and turned a somewhat arrogant product-centric organization to a genuinely consumer-centric organization. It's now mandatory for every Disney executive to go sweep the streets of Disneyland. one day or two days a year, and one day a year in the living room of one of our consumers using our intuition.

And that happens to this day, that still happens.

Yeah. Oh, God, yes. The thing is, right, when you get to my age, you get down on your knees to do some pin trading with a small child, then you think, shit, I can't get back up again.

Oh, my. Duncan, I... Man, It seldom we have a podcast at such a pace. And this is like the proverbial drinking out of a river. I know you use the concept of river of thinking in a negative way, where you're stuck in a river, but this is drinking from a river of creativity and innovation. So I thank you for being on my podcast. I'm gonna look at Disneyland and Disney a whole different way. more positive if that's possible. And congratulations on your book again. Thank you. Duncan's book's name is Imagination Emporium. And I cannot think of a book that is designed the way this one is and with the colors and the illustrations. So yeah, as you would expect the book from Duncan Wardell to look like it fulfills your every fantasy. So thank you very much, Duncan.

Thank you, Madison. Yeah.

Yes, thank you. I'm gonna thank the remarkable people team, which is of course Madison Neismer, producer and co-author, Tessa Neismer, researcher who dug up all the dirt on you for me. And there is my sound design engineers, which is Shannon Hernandez and Jeff C. So we are the remarkable people team and I find it hard to believe that you're not a little bit more remarkable after listening to this episode and you're going to be more creative and innovative and change the world and empathetic and all that good stuff and you're going to look at turkeys in completely new ways. So thank you, Duncan and until next time, Mahalo and Aloha from the Remarkable People team. This is Remarkable People.