Jamia Wilson: Author, Activist and Feminist

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I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is remarkable people. This episode's guest is Jamia Wilson. Jamia wears many hats. She is a feminist activist, writer, and speaker. She is also the director of the Feminist Press at the City University of New York. But first things first. If by any chance you know Colin Powell, please ask him to listen to this episode. He will get a kick out of it. Ben Carson, however, won't like this episode, so don't tell him. Jamia is, in short, a leading voice for feminists and women's rights. Her writing has appeared in publications such as the Washington Post and New York Magazine. She has spoken at events such as south by Southwest, TedX, and Ted. She was named by Refinery 29 as one of the 17 Faces of the Future of Feminism. The titles of her books are Revealing Big Ideas for Young Thinkers, Young, Gifted, and Black, the ABCs of AOC, Step into youo Power and Roadmap for Revolutionaries. She's even appeared with Gloria Steinem and Jane Fonda. Maybe Jamia will like this episode so much she'll help me get them as guests. I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is remarkable people. And now here is Jamia Wilson, who brought a ray of sunshine into my life with this interview.

I see myself as a multi hybrid person, but I mean, mostly I'd say I'm an author and an activist who likes to make books. And now I like to kind of be a midwife of books in all levels. So I like to birth my own. But midwife other people's books and activist books. Books with a message.

What is your writing routine?

I like to have a steaming cup of lemon tea. So much so that my editor knows this.

Sometimes people are writing this down right now. You know that, right? Okay. Like what? Okay, lemon tea. Any particular brand of lemon tea?

Yes. So if I'm really wanting to be fancy, see, it's Fortnum's Lemon Tea or Fortnum's. Fortnum's Fort Mason Tea with some raw honey And a little bit of lemon squeezed in. And some ginger, fresh ginger. And that's because my mom made it that way. And my mom has been a great influence in my life. And since she's passed away, a way that I can kind of be connected to that love and that support and that memory is the ritual of tea that we had together for so many years. And she was always an encourager of my art and of my writing and of my voice. So I take her with me. But if you give me anything on the range of Lipton to Fort Mason, I will drink it. But I. But I like a good Fortnum and Mason's tea.

Okay, well, if Amazon sells out a Fortnum Tea after this, we'll know what happened. So. Okay, so now you're drinking this tea with some honey. And are you writing with a fountain pen on parchment, or are you pounding it out on a Windows laptop? Or where are you?

So I use a MacBook Air. So I'm a MacBook Air. I have had Apple since my dad gave me an Apple Iie when I was four years old.

Wow.

So I've kind of been on Mac. It's a big source of disagreement in my home. My husband's all about PC and was an Android until I convinced him to get an iPhone. But I like to have with all the good and bad. I like to be powered by multiple Mac devices at all times. But I do like pens. So I was always one of those kids who likes stationery. So I connect. I collect Washi tape. So right here on my desk, I have in my writing nook, bunch of Washi tape with different things on it, lots of different colored pencils, markers, all sorts of other ephemeral magic. Here I have paper that's made out of different things. I have a fountain pen with a feather on it. And I even have the melty wax to seal my envelopes because I believe in the art of letter writing and correspondence. So. Which is also a form of writing.

You seal your envelopes with melted wax Sometimes.

If it's a love note.

I'm gonna give you my address and see.

Yes, I'll send you one. I'll send you one. Or you could pick between. You know, if you want the Washi tape, you can have unicorns, you can have gold, you can have poppies. So I'm serious about this.

So now you're seated with your tea and you have your MacBook Air. Are you using Word? Are you using what?

I usually am sort of a Microsoft Office kind of person. I like Using Word, but I also use Evernote a lot. So a lot of how I organize. If I'm working on a book project, it'll be a mix between Word, Dropbox, and Evernote.

And when you're in Word, do you just start off writing your prose, or are you in the outline view outlining your entire book before you start? What kind of mind do you have here?

I would like to say I have an outline view mind, but I would be lying. I have a multiple windows open mind where I have three different scenarios, and then I open another window and then create the outline of what should happen in them. And then also, I will have the little ephemera, the papers, the beautiful papers I like, and the colored pencils, outlines and different diagrams and visuals of what I want. And I take pictures of those and put them in Evernote to help me figure out the order, and somehow my mind makes sense of it.

Believe it or not, this podcast is soon going to be sponsored by a company called Remarkable. No pun intended. No, no, seriously. And they make a remarkable tablet that feels just like writing with a pencil. And the pencil doesn't need to be recharged like the Apple one. So I'm going to make it so that you get one of those. Okay. Because, oh, my gosh, you will love it. You will love it. I use that to take my notes. Okay, but wait, so now are you. Do you think that writing. The real act of writing is editing?

Ooh. So I'm still learning because I edit. As a publisher, I edit, and then I also write on my free time. So I'd like to say by day, I'm editing books and helping people publish their books, and by night I'm writing, and on the weekends, I'm writing my own work. But I learned so much about writing as an editor. So I think that although I love to help other people pursue their craft, I think there's so much I gain by being in other people's work because I have a distance from it that can allow me to see things that later on I'll think in my own writing. Oh, this sort of risk I saw this person take, like, what are the risks I could be taking? Or the way that they have dedicated to learning this particular form and structure. What kind of commitment can I be making? So I think that they're both. It's really helpful to. To refine that talent of both inside you. And I always hear editors say that they're not good writers, but I actually think every editor at their core, has to be a Good writer to some degree. And you have to be a good reader. But you hear a lot of self deprecating editors say they're not good writers. And I don't buy it.

Right about now, people are firing up their email clients, sending me an email saying, why are you wasting her time talking about writing? We want to hear about black feminism. Okay, but I have one more question for you about writing. So I have seen your books and I want to know how you find your quotations because you have elevated finding quotations to an art. So what do you do?

Thank you. So it's funny you mentioned that. I was going through my books and I have way too many of them the other day. And I have quotation books, so I have some of those. But my father, when I was a child, loved the power of oration. And before he went into speech science and got into the science part of his work, he had been an English teacher and had gotten a master's of English. So I grew up getting assignments from my dad after school saying like, oh, memorize this poem and recite it back to me. Memorize these quotes. And he would always quote people. And he would always quote Shakespeare or quote Maya Angelou and people. And so I've memorized so many of those so that now whenever I hear something I like, I write it in my journal. And I have a bunch of them piled up over here, as you can see, and I keep them. And so I have a culmination of those. And then once, like we said, Evernote, once Evernote came into my life. Anytime I see something that I like or I hear something, I'll either voice dictate it, write it down, or take a picture and keep it. And that's often how I find those quotes in my quote collection. And then so I'm kind of a collector. And then two, sometimes I will find them in books. So I'm a highlighter and flagger of books. And so I'll put a little flag in the book to say, oh, this page spoke to me. I don't want to forget it. I want to remember the feeling I had when this truth came to me. And that's really how I find a lot of them.

Do you ever go to Goodreads and look in the Goodreads quotation by typing in a word like, I don't know, race, and find the 250 quotes with the word race in it? And some of them are Maya Angelou, right? And some of them are Martin Luther King. Do you ever do that with Goodreads.

So with Goodreads, I've done looking for a particular person to see what they've said about something. And it's usually with someone who I have curiosity about and want to know if they spoke about a certain issue. So usually it's. Usually I'll write about people I already kind of know a little bit about. But I have found, especially with my Big Ideas for Young Thinkers book, there were people who existed many centuries ago that I have said, oh, I wonder if Confucius had a thought about something similar to what's happening now? And I'll look, and Goodreads will often have it, or sometimes if I want to find something contrarian by someone who I think speaks about one thing. But to see, oh, do they contradict themselves or do they have an alternate nuanced point of view about xyz? I'll go to Goodreads and find it because they do have such a comprehensive list.

Okay. Okay, so now we'll shift gears. God, we've gone into two holes here. I try to keep my interviews really focused, but we've gone off track twice already, which is a new record. So I'm gonna start really now. Okay. So my first question is, do you think we're at a tipping point in society?

Absolutely. I think we're at a tipping point. I'm really excited about it. And I feel that we're at that precipice of change right now where everything that's being laid bare by sort of systems we've relied upon, systems that were set in place, that are no longer working, are showing that they're either falling apart or that their foundations are flimsy. And so we're being forced to reimagine a way forward. And for those who have had vision about a way forward that's better than the way we've been using, or a vision that can bring more of us forward without leaving some behind. That is the vision that is coming. And I think it's been in the making. It's been in the making for a while. And I'm just really excited about the energy that we have, sort of a bigger collective awakening that's happening now and the momentum and a series of conditions that are leading more people across difference to stand up and speak up. So I'm actually seeing a lot of opportunity in this moment and seeing that we can't live in the conditions we were living in anymore. Now you can't unsee what we've seen. So we've got to do something different. And I'm really thrilled that we have this opportunity right now, even though I do think it's going to take sacrifice and it's going to take hard work from all of us, because humans don't tend to do well with change.

And what do you think the listener of this podcast can do to make sure that the tipping point tips that it's not an aberration? And two weeks from now, we're back to life as usual.

I think we're all now being called to be more brave. We're all now being called to step into walking our real talk. Who we think we are, who we said we were. This is now the time to show up in that truth be it, with the way we work, the way we hire, how we spend our money, how we vote, who we support, who we use our platforms to uplift, how we treat other people in our lives. Right now, we are being called to create what we need in the world, to build what needs to be built, to connect with who we may not have connected with before, but know is important for us to connect with. Connect with the people who challenge us, who are going to really make us be better and stretch ourselves to growth. I'm just. I'm feeling now that we need to be more brave. And I include myself in that.

You include yourself in that, But I saw that you, because of a preexisting medical condition, you cannot protest. Right? You cannot go to these things that must just be killing you.

Oh, I've cried about it.

No pun intended.

No pun intended, Exactly. I've cried about it several times. That I just really have some risk factors that I can't ignore. And especially knowing the numbers around how African Americans are being impacted by COVID 19 and I live in a part of New York City that has a high rate of COVID infection. So I have been advised that it would be a real risk for me, but also a risk for others. There are elders in my building. They're newborn children. And so I consider myself as someone who likes to do my best to think about the community and think about the collective. And so in making that analysis for myself, although I'm usually the first one down for the protest at all times, I really knew now that I'm being called to show up with my other strengths. And what I'm doing right now is to find the ways to support the people who are marching, sending money for bailout funds, helping organize childcare and food for people who need it, speaking out and helping to create content that advances social justice and anti racism. Helping to connect people with the resources they need in order to march, and then also helping other people who are similarly finding themselves not able to show up in that way to find opportunities where we can give back. And I'm finding a lot of delight in it, too, because a lot of people who've mentored me have entrusted me with their belief in me to do and lead and the way that I see best for my generation, my vision, and my community. And now I'm seeing all these amazing people who are younger than myself leading in the way that they see, fits and aligns with what the next generation needs. And I want to follow them. So for me, I'm excited about having that opportunity. Now, looking back at my role as a follower of the next generation as much as being someone who can help fuel their work with my funds and my support.

Well, why do you say the next generation? It's not like you're 60 years old. This is your time.

Yeah, I feel as if I gained a lot of learning when I worked for Rookie magazine. And Tavi Jevonson, who was our CEO, was 15 when I started writing for Rookie as one of the older people writing for Rookie at the time, and my late 20s. And I learned from her. And I still think she's the best boss I've ever had. I'm actually working on a project with her right now, and she's just so brilliant. And I just learned that even though I was considerably young in the trajectory of a life, that there were things that I had learned that weren't so good, about second guessing myself, about confidence issues that come with getting conditioned and internalized, depression that come with sexism, come with racism that I didn't have when I was younger because I hadn't internalized all those things. And so I gained more energy and momentum working with all of these young women who helped me find back inside myself that innate fire, that power, that drive to do without considering judgment or critique from others. And I think that that's why we saw the March for Our Lives and the Climate Justice March, Greta Thunberg and all of these other amazing young people who are doing that leadership, who are just doing it because they know it's the right thing to do. Their egos are not driving that work. And so I love it.

A little bit of backtracking because I think many people will not know the answer to this question. I don't know the answer to this question. So what does it mean to be young, black and female in America today?

It means so many things. I can speak about what this young black woman thinks and feels. Because I think there's so many different ways to experience being a black woman, and we are a myriad of different experiences. But I think the shared experience was really summarized well in Thomas Keith's new film called what Does It Mean to Be a Problem? That I had the pleasure of speaking in because he had a lot of people talk about, what does it mean to live in a culture where you. Your very existence has been defined as synonymous with a problem and transcending in spite of it. And that's something I think we all share, because there's these systemic realities that we all experience that are baked into the pie of the system. And that's why it needs to change. You know, I think right now, as someone who's thinking about becoming a parent and thinking about the fact that maternal Black women's health is so dire in this country, the fact that I'm so afraid of what it would mean to have a baby in this country in a hospital here, because the statistics show that I'm more likely to experience complications or worse. And to see that someone like Serena Williams, who had access to the most material resources, still almost died by doing something that is a natural part of many women's lives and many people's lives around the world. And still. So I think that's just an example of what we have to experience that I don't think that people who aren't walking in the skin and these bodies might necessarily know about. Just knowing that being a black woman in this country comes with being defined as a problem and no fault of our own.

I mean, that is arguably one of the most insipid forms of racism. Right. I mean, that goes to the core. There is the kind of Karen's racism, and then there's the turning your back on racism like the NFL did until about 20 minutes ago. But then there's that, what you just described, where that's so fundamental to your existence.

But it's part of. One of the things I want to say is one of the reasons that I think it's so important to speak about, is that I think what upsets me so much about our predicament, and I say this with deep love for being a black woman. I love being a black woman. I'm so glad that in this life that is. That is who I am, is that every black woman goes through what I've called a tragically inevitable rite of passage. I call them Black girls Lessons in a piece that I've written for Young Women. And I got a lot of feedback about it because we've all kind of had that moment of not being able to just bask in your full girlhood because society defined you as a problem so young that you're not able to just grow up and be a child in the same way as white children do. And that's something that is part of the reason why I do write children's books, in part to heal the black girl child that I was who didn't get to see herself reflected in enough books or didn't get to see myself and my family reflected positively.

What are the experiences that make you feel like you're defined as a problem?

Oh, my goodness. I mean, just even looking at the statistics about how black girls in schools are sent to detention and suspension more than other girls in schools, but then also are often an afterthought when it comes to support for funding for programs to help support them. And so even during the Obama administration, there was a My Brother's Keepers program that was made to support black boys in schools, acknowledging the very real disparities that they were dealing with. But the centering of the conversation was about black boyhood and not the fact that the statistics for black girls were also dire. And we see this now with what's happening with state sanctioned violence and how we too often don't hear the name of Breonna Taylor on signs at rallies next to the name of George Floyd. We don't. We don't hear too often the names of trans women of color who are killed disproportionately more and trans black women, as much as we hear the name Trayvon. And all of those names need to be said. We need to have the same righteous outrage about every loss of life. But it's important to me to also mention that often the needs of black women and girls are ignored or undermined and our pain is normalized. And there's a historic reason for that. If you look back at slavery and you look back at reproductive injustice and history of this country, and we have to move away from normalizing it to really talking about what it means to nourish, support, protect and defend the safety of black girls and black women.

What's your reaction when people say that associating and liking people of the same race, similar people, is a survival mechanism honed over millions of years of evolution. So it's in our DNA. So it's not that I'm racist. It's just like a survival mechanism. I hang around Japanese Americans because that's what it took to be in the tribe. I mean, when someone says that today, what's your reaction?

It always makes me sad when people say that because I feel as if just knowing one science about race and knowing that it's a social construction and it's this illusion that was very real in terms of policies and these sort of man made divisions that we have. It makes me sad for people who are missing out on the potential of growing, transforming and building with so many other people. They could learn from so many other cultures that could help expand their experience here on earth by having that community and by having that knowledge. And I think, you know, it's one thing to say I love my community. I want to be in partnership and community and culture with people who've had my shared experiences and traditions and to, to hold and honor those. I respect that. I love that I just experienced Juneteenth and did rituals that my family has celebrated in Juneteenth, and I love that. But to shut others out or to say that there's somehow a benefit of not bridging with others gives me deep sadness. And I think that's partly too, because I grew up abroad in Saudi Arabia. I went to international school students from over 50 countries. And my life was very enriched by that experience. And I believe that my vantage point has been expanded and allows me to do the work that I do because I can find common ground with a lot of people. And I celebrate difference. And that was something that I was taught very young and have built my community in that way. And I want that for everyone. I want that for the next generation too. I love that about my life.

It seems to me that there is a fundamental difference between, quote, celebrating difference and the goal that some people aspire to, which is see no difference. I would argue that see no difference is almost a form of racism in and of itself, just denied deeper.

I agree with you. I fully agree with you. I think some of the things I really want to dispel in terms of myths, I like to talk with people about myths and mythologies that we've been taught is that to talk about race does not mean you're racist. To speak about how your race has influenced how people see you, perceive you, treat you, or how policies impact your life does not mean that people of color are somehow obsessed with race or somehow race baiting and by addressing inequities that have to do with inequality related to race does not mean that you're perpetuating it. And so when people say I see no color or I don't see you as black or I don't see you as Japanese. That's actually undermining and silencing the history of who you are, who your ancestors are. And I come from a community that your ancestors are very important. And it also ignores your experience and your culture and your lived reality of experience in our social and cultural institutions. So for me, I often want to tell that to people when they say, well, I don't see your color somehow thinking that that's complementary, to really think about what that means. That means you don't see me. That means you don't see my fullness as a human being and my full experience.

How does one avoid being accused of being tone deaf when dealing with black people? I cannot possibly understand what it means to be black.

It.

I have not walked the talk. And so can you give us a little, like, broad principles about this is, for example, saying that I don't see color is offensive. Right. But many people would. That would be a surprise to them.

Yeah. You know, I think a lot of times what I have learned myself is that when I have those moments too, and someone's saying, you know, I see a disconnect here. You're. You're not understanding my experience. I'm offended by what you said. It's really a good time to listen and to go inward and to really think about, okay, what are my beliefs and values and assumptions that I have coming into this and what might be different for this other person's experience. So I like to get curious. Right? That's the thing that I do when I have gotten into those experiences with people where they're saying that maybe my behavior is harmful or something I said was offensive, to really go in and say, oh, where in me might I have some implicit bias or some sort of leanings based on my own experience that might make it hard for me to see what this other person is saying or to understand it. Also just understanding where we are in terms of our power and like our proximity to power, our privilege as it's otherwise defined. And I think that's a really important way to. To understand it and take ownership of that, because it by itself, having it isn't a bad thing. It's just about knowing how we're owning it and how we're relating to other people as a result. And so I like to give an example about how I was called out on my privilege once as a way that I had some more compassion for people who I have thought have said things that were tone deaf due to their privilege. And the way in which I decided to deal with it came from me thinking about how I'd wish that white people had dealt with their own when they'd kind of trespassed against me. And in my case, the quick story of it is one time there were some women of size who were talking about a fashion show that they were doing, and they were talking about these amazing clothes. And I saw these clothes and I thought they were so beautiful. I wanted to be a part of it. And I started tweeting and adding this conversation that was about women doing activism around against sizeism and fatphobia. But instead I said, oh, I wish these came in my size. I want to be a part of this. Like, this is so awesome. I want to do it. And a bunch of these women, a lot of people I knew said, back up. Can you go into stores and always find your size? Do you walk down the street and do people call you names because of your size? Do you see yourself and your size reflected into the dominant beauty standard of what society says that it is? Because if that is the case, this is not for you. It doesn't have to be in your size, because everything's in your size. You can walk into anywhere and get what you want. This society caters to your size. So why don't you let us have this moment, this community that we need to heal, that we need to build for us, that empowers our community without having to appropriate it or take it away. And it was such a great example because especially soon as it happened, I thought, wow, that's fantastic. This is something that I've experienced with white women who I've had conflicts with before are white men and other people of color who might have said things anti black things without understanding that they did that. And so what I did is I said, you know what? I'm so sorry for the harm that I've done. I clearly need to listen. I clearly need to check my privilege and kind of go inward, do my homework around this. What I'm going to do, I'm going to leave these tweets up. I'm not going to delete it. I'm not going to try to clean it up. I'm going to show the mistake I made and show that I still have work to do. And I'm going to not also ask you to educate my labor and give me labor to fix it, right? That this is something I have to do and I made a mistake. I'm going to be vulnerable and saying that I did But I'm also not going to take my toys and go home, because I did. I'm going to just try to do the work and be better. And so I try to be accountable and I try to make amends. And I think that's what we can all do when we do it. And then also, I think it helped me develop empathy in many different ways by having that experience. And I'm sad it happened in such a clunky, embarrassing way, but I grew from it. I think it's important.

So I have interviewed about 40 people for remarkable people so far. And I don't know if you saw the previous guest list, but there are truly, truly remarkable people. And I will tell you, Jimmy, that is the best story I have heard in all the interviews I have done. That is truly a remarkable story. So utterly fantastic.

Thank you. That means a lot to me. I feel just in awe of the amazing people that you've talked with. And I can show you. I mean, I don't know where the tweets are now. God, it was like several years ago, but, you know, it was. It checked me, too, because it also showed me that, oh, you, you know, you do social justice. You. You're living this and no, I live in the same system and society as everyone else. And I am also capable of being just as toxic and always have to interrupt it and check it and do better next time.

When it's pointed out to companies that you. You have such a paucity of black people in management positions, and they always come back with something like, well, it's the supply. There's not that many coming in the top of the funnel. So how do we get them to, you know, be promoted, something, some kind of rationalization like that. But if you think about it, if you're a black person in business, like, what percentage of your mind and your thoughts and your energy is taken up with thinking about you being a black person in this company. Because I guarantee you, most white people are not in professional positions wondering about what their whiteness means and how they're impacted and all this. And just think of all the overhead that black people have to go through to work. Right? White people don't have that overhead. I don't have that overhead as a Japanese American. So that sets you back already.

It's really. I mean, it's really tough. I've thought about it a great deal, and I've actually had. Talked to managers, I've had, who, on the one hand, people give you your feedback of where you can grow. And one Thing I've gotten is like, I'm really hyper vigilant. And that can be a really good thing in a workplace and it can be a really bad thing, right? Like that I'm always like, I gotta check and check and check and detail oriented, but hyper vigilant, not always a good thing. And I finally had some vulnerability, now that I have managers who really get it, to say, well, it makes sense that if I've always kind of been getting the narrative since childhood, you've got to work twice as hard to get half as much and be twice as good. That lends to that sort of always feeling like you've got to double check. You've got to like be hyper vigilant about every single thing. And it, and it can be really difficult. And I don't want to say that everyone has that experience, but it's one that I definitely have. And I've talked to a lot of people who are black or people who've had immigrant parents or people who are the first, first one of their community from a certain class to go into this kind of profession. And it can be really tough and alienating because of that. Because in addition to doing the job at hand, right, Feeling that you're constantly having to prove your worth, constantly having to prove why you deserve to be there, or to unprove biases people have about thinking that you somehow got there through a handout or a quota or whatever they're calling it this these days, right. When I was in college, they were calling, saying it that way that it's really tricky. I'll never forget in college having someone challenge me and saying, oh, yeah, you clearly got here an affirmative action. And me just saying, oh, well, if you want to, like, show me your SAT results, I'd be happy to show you mine. And him not being willing to do that. Right. But I called the bluff. I just wanted to say, like, come on, if you're going to call me to the mat like this or just make these kinds of assumptions, then, you know, I want to see, I want to see you like, really bring it down to the mat. And in the moments where that's happened, rarely have people ever taken me up on that opportunity. Right. And so I think I'm glad you named it because it's something I've been thinking about a lot. And Roxane Gay said something that to me once when I interviewed her, that really stuck with me, which was that she's been a first in many things and I was the first black woman to be the director and publisher of the feminist press in 47 years. And my parents were both firsts in their fields around their PhDs at respective institutions. And I said to her, you know, what does it mean to be a first? There's so much pressure. There's good parts about it, but there's a lot of burden. And what does that mean? And she said, well, it's our duty as the first not to be the last and to create conditions so that there won't need to be a first again. Right. And I've really thought about how that's impacted so much of how I try to show up in my work at Feminist Press with my team, and really trying to create an organization that would make it so that any of the people that are working there now could rise up into the director position, regardless of their immigration status, their race, their sexual orientation, their gender, etc. So. But I think having my own subjectivity has really led to that being a really deep value.

That is another great story. Can I ask you just an aside. I may have just learned something. So I consider myself a little obsessive compulsive. So is hyper vigilant the new term for obsessive compulsive? I mean, can I just call myself hyper vigilant as opposed to obsessive compulsive and be more like millennial, millennial relevant?

I think it's. So it's kind of like I got hyper vigilant kind of from my therapist, right? Because that's part of it. Like, if I'm going to get really real. And she would also say obsessive compulsive about me, too. And my mom had it, too. You know, my mom was, like, open about her ocd, like, literally. So, for example, let's just say with the pandemic, everyone was freaking out about not having supplies. I had my supplies, my hyper vigilance. But, like, I always have a stockpile. But anyhow, that's another podcast. It's an increased state of alertness, Right. And so it comes out of language a lot of times from, like, trauma. Right? So, like, if, like, if you were burned as a child because you put your hand on the stove, you might have a hyper vigilance, like an increased state of alertness about danger when you think it's coming, when you think the conditions might be creating it. Right. So. So I think it's a cousin to obsessive compulsiveness a lot. And it's about kind of always, like, wanting to sniff out the hidden danger.

You may have an infinite supply of toilet fever, but I'll tell you something. I have, like, I wash my hands so often, I swear that touch ID doesn't work on my phone and computer anymore. Like, my fingerprint has changed or I don't have a fingerprint anymore. Moving on. Do you think that Facebook, for all its talk, is actually undermining Black Lives Matter?

Hmm. I think I have long had a concern about, and it's like a documented concern, just about how platforms in general need to be better about managing online abuse and harassment, but also walking the talk around, not overly surveilling activist movements and contributing to that. And so what I want to see is just more of the people who are impacted having a seat at the table. And I know work is being done at Facebook and at other platforms around that, and they've connected with me and others around that as well. So I know that there are people doing that work. But I want to see it at the very top. I want to see it at the very top as well. In terms of that commitment and really ensuring, how do we get the people who are most affected by our policies around the platform, most affected by the impact of any partnerships we have with law enforcement, et cetera? That is the kind of conversation I want to see. And then surveillance and privacy, what does that mean? Who does that compromise and whose safety is compromised as a result as well?

What about the stories that they let be spread on Facebook or the advertising that they let be run?

So my argument, and there's people who disagree with this all the time, but I'll just say this. We know that private companies are private companies, so they can decide that content is not appropriate to be featured on their platforms, and they can make those decisions. And often you'll hear people who are opponents of, like, those kinds of stories are opponents of counterspeech saying, well, it's free speech. Like, there's nothing they can do. There's nothing they can do. But actually, yes, they can. They're a private company by law. They can make the decision to say, we're actively not going to allow hate speech, we're not going to allow content that is related to sexual cyber exploitation, otherwise known as revenge porn, things like that. Right. They can actually make that decision as private companies. So. So I like to also just dispel that myth all the time, to say that really there are human beings who can actually make the decision legally, totally, to take down whatever they want, and it's a choice that they make. And I think it's an ethical and moral choice.

Oh, the irony of anyone in the Trump administration playing the victim of the lack of free speech. Because free speech is when the government shuts you down, not when Facebook decides to pull your story. And somebody missed the constitutional law class that day when they claim Facebook is restricting speech. But that's another hole we shouldn't go down. I work with someone, and I have two questions in here that she said you should not ask her. Okay, so. So now I don't know. Okay, we can edit these out so we can do anything. Okay. But anyway, with all that, your curious curiosity is peaked. So question number one, I was told not to ask you. What do you think of Ben Carson?

Huh? Okay, so what I think of Ben Carson is something I think I'm still kind of trying to figure out, because when I was a child, I was told that Ben Carson was a hero, who I should look up to. And I remember, I think I got a book. I got a book about Ben Carson's life from my parents, and that book was supposed to kind of show me, oh, this is what's possible in your life. This is how one can achieve a lot in the midst of adversity. And so for me, I have a lot of confusion, sadness, and just. Yeah, confusion and sadness about where he is now, what he's come to represent, and then who's also kind of leveraging him. And I think I often wonder. I often wonder if that comes from the fact that I was raised to look up to him because of his medical work. But I think now, you know, I don't consider him one of my role models, but when I was a child, I would have.

Okay, so should I keep that question in the podcast?

Yeah, if you want. Yeah. I mean, I think for me, it's just. I think I have a sadness about it because he was one of those people that I grew up hearing about and being told, like, be like Ben Carson. And in the 2016 campaign, I just had this moment of, you know, it's kind of like. It's kind of like when you look up to your favorite teacher and then they have a scandal or something like that, and then it's like, oh, don't meet your idols. That's kind of how I feel.

Okay. The second question I was told not to ask you is, what do you think of Joe Biden essentially saying, you ain't black if you support Trump?

I felt that the comment was really tone deaf. I felt that him saying that he. This is my thing. If you're going to Say that you have such proximity to the black community and understanding that, then he should know actually that that was an inappropriate statement or joke for him to be making. I think what is most concerning about that comment is that there's a sense of entitlement to it, that somehow black folks owe their vote to him or that somehow he's the person who is best poised to represent the black community. And I think that I found it deeply troubling. And I think the context is also really important because of the show that he was on. It was a show that has a widely, wide ranging audience, and there's a lot of black people who listen to that show. But when I heard it, I just was kind of like, this was not okay. It must not have been vetted by whomever the black people are on your team. And my quick knee jerk that day was like, I just feel upset for the black folks who are doing extra labor in there today having to deal with this comment that he made, and he needs more education, and I hope he never says anything like this ever again. And so I felt like, for me, it just did the opposite job of what it was supposed to do. But I also think that him making a comment like that wouldn't be the first. First or the last time that we've heard politicians make comments like that. And if anything, I think that what I would have preferred to hear from him was to talk about what he plans to do to address the real systemic problems that the black community and all of our communities need fixed and what he's going to do to uplift a woman of color in the office of vice president. Because I was one of the 200 women who signed the letter urging him to make that decision.

If you were in front of an audience of young black people, what would you say? Okay, this is the mindset that I think you should have today to succeed and to make, you know, this country better. What's the mindset you would recommend?

So really interesting. I mean, I think I'm constantly asking myself that question in the writing I do for young people. I think that the mindset is the title of my second book, which is for young people, which is step into your power. That's the mindset that I was raised with. And I dedicate this book to my mom because she taught me to step into my power. That in every situation, you have an innate power that cannot be taken away from you. You have strengths and you have power, even if outside institutions or culture or community tell you that you don't. That you are worthy and you have power. And that's literally the key message of all my books. Like when I, like if I distill it to say you have power. In young, gifted and black, it was all about what did these people tap into in their lives to do things that help change the world and step into your power. It's all about that, that you have the power. You always, in the adversity you're facing, have an opportunity to make decisions, make discernment, and make choices. And it's not to be confused with this idea of individualism, right, that you, that you pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Because I very much believe in systems and how they impact us. But to say that we have a power to embrace how we respond to anything that faces us. And so that's what excites me about this moment. Because young people now and many generations of people are saying, we have the power to organize right now. We have the power to demand what we want. We have the power to speak out and say. Just thinking about all the CEOs in the past couple of weeks who have had to atone for ill treatment of black staff and staff of color in multiple sectors. People are stepping into their power. People are stepping their power to name issues that they want to address and to name the changes and to say, I deserve to be a part of the solution. So that's the thing. And I think stepping into our power is also one about being brave and just being courageous enough to trust in yourself without needing that external affirmation and validation. Because I think that ultimately, ultimately that power is something that we possess. No one can give it to you. And there's a level of power that can't be taken away. And that to me, comes from my spiritual beliefs, but also just my deep beliefs. And what makes us human.

Can a white person or an Asian person or a non black person say to black people, step into your power? Because couldn't the black people say, you have no freaking idea what I'm dealing with. How dare you say the solution is step into your power. So I can see how you can say that.

But.

But what does a white person say when asked, what are your thoughts? I mean, what should they just say? I have no thoughts. I can't comment. What's the answer? What does a white person say when.

So what I like about. So that book, part of why I wrote it is it's been translated into a bunch of different languages now. And I'm hearing from kids from all over about stepping their Power. So what I want folks who are not black to do is step into their power, their power to uplift, to support, to listen, to use their privilege and platform to help support others. And what I would want them to say is, how can I support you? How can I be in solidarity with you, with those who don't have the access, don't have the privilege, and don't have the support that they do enjoy? And so for me, the question is about how do we each step into our power, right? Because I also think of this. So one of the things that I'm during COVID 19, that has been important to me here is stepping into my power to help Asian members of my community and friends who were dealing with real racist violence here in New York City in the beginnings of COVID 19. And there were people that I knew who experienced physical and verbal abuse simply for being Asian and simply for wearing masks in New York City. And so that was a time for me to step into my power to listen to go to some webinars about how we can do cross coalition work and like, support each other's communities and be in deep solidarity. And so when I say this, this means about. This is about how each of us can step into powerful coalition together in our power. And I have to say, one of the things that made me so, so excited just a couple weeks ago when I was out for a bit was seeing Koreans for black lives. That was amazing to me to see that and to say, and to know like, we. We are. They are stepping into their power and we are stepping into our power together. And.

And you don't look back and say, wow, during the Rodney King riots, all the Koreans who owned the liquor stores, you know, it was blacks against Koreans back then.

What I think about that is I think when we go back into the history, and I like to look at history, right? I try to understand too, about how the very same, like, nefarious racism that would promote anti Asian sentiments, that would promote the kind of racism that Asians would experience and therefore maybe feel like would bring them closer to being accepted. That's what I want to interrogate. Like, that's the kind of thing I mean, I think about. I remember asking that question, so I'm glad you asked it. I remember asking that question during the Rodney King experience. Like, my experience of Rodney King. And I was maybe I was 9 or 10 years old. I was pretty young at that time. And I remember asking my dad, what is it about? Why are they talking about Korean and black relationships in La and my dad kind of explaining to me that he's like, well, a lot of times what happens when people come to this country is that white supremacy. And I remember being taught this, like, as a child, but they said this white supremacy will make people feel that, like, if. If you don't want to be, like, treated as black people are. And a way to kind of, like, distance yourself from that when you're already being treated badly by white supremacy is to be seen on the other side of it. And so not that I would excuse anything that would be, like, anti black or anti racist violence or anti Asian violence. I would just say that I remember that conversation, and I'm excited that I was trusted with that level of information at a young age because it helped me think with nuance about it. And I think the same thing here in New York, there were some Orthodox Jews who were marching for Black Lives Matter. And there's a long history in New York and Crown Heights around conflicts between Orthodox Jewish populations and black people as well. But I think sometimes, too, we have to remember that these communities are not monoliths. And so we can acknowledge, like, fraught histories that we have with each other. But I also think in each of these cases, these are communities who have experienced deep persecution as a result of white supremacy. Right. So for me, I'm like, how are we going to build together, acknowledge past hurts, and talk about our common goal of dismantling what ails us both, what ails us all?

How old are you?

I'm 39, so I'm pretty old now.

Yeah. But I'm telling you, if you have acquired this much wisdom by 39, it's going to be scary when you're 60. Oh, my God.

Thank you for saying that. My mom said I was born 35. She was like, you've been carrying the hell out of us for a long time. And it's funny, because I never quite knew what they meant until I met. There's this amazing candidate for Congress here, Lindsey Bolen. And Lindsey Boylan has a daughter named Vivi. And Vivi came to my event. We had an event about the Equal Rights Amendment. And her mom spoke at this event. And Lindsay's amazing. And Vivi got on the mic, and I think she's, you know, maybe 6 years old. She got on the mic and was like, what are. Okay, well. Well, you're talking about this Equal Rights Amendment, and you're trying to get it ratified, and that's great. And you've just gotten Virginia, but what are you gonna do if Donald Trump is still in power. How are you gonna make this happen? And I'm having this fierce six year old, awesome young Asian American girl calling me to the mat. And I remember just thinking like, oh, okay, I know what they meant about born 35. Vivi is already on it. I already, I posted her on Instagram the other day. I'm like, this is the president in training. Vivi has got it going on. And she just said to me later, she's like, you know, this man is a problem. Like, what are you going to do to fix it? She's asking me this at 6.

And what did you say?

I mean, I just said, you're right. We need your help. Help guide us. Obviously adults, like, have a lot to learn in getting there and give us your solutions. And she had solutions. I mean, we talked throughout the whole night. I actually owe her some books because her mom's like, baby wants you to send some books. Because I offered them to her. But I feel really confident in that. Right. That I think I did benefit from a generation of having like, feminist parents. And my parents were involved in the civil rights movement. So I also feel that this, that anything I've been able to accomplish came from those opportunities I got from other people's labor and sacrifice and support. And I'm hoping that what I can do right now is help make it so. Vivius president. But then also to help be a resource to conjure that for young people. Because I was just able to be in an environment where my curiosity was piqued and I was encouraged to ask questions. And I've had a lot of practice doing so. And I want that for kids. I want them to get questions like the ones you're answering. I want kids to, to get questions and not have any question. Be one that they would be afraid to tackle. Right. That they would be critical thinkers and be ready at the ready, like Vivi.

Okay, I have two more questions for you. Okay, so first one is, how exactly does one get to interview Gloria Steinem and Angela Davis? I just like, how did you pull that off?

Well, I haven't gotten to interview Angela Davis yet. I've interviewed Gloria several times. But I'm wondering. Angela has written for fp, but I haven't interviewed her yet. But I love that you're speaking this into reality because it's a dream. I would love to interview Angela Davis.

I'll send her an email. Not that she knows who the hell I am.

I would love that. Oh, my gosh. I would. I would just. Interviewing Angela Davis would be like life goals unlocked. Because she. Right. She's. She's so brilliant. She's so brilliant. And I also. I'm a Francophile, and I like practicing French. The other day, listened to her speaking French an entire interview, and I'm just impressed at her accent and her entire skills. But, yeah, Gloria. So I used to work at the Women's Media center, which was founded by Gloria Steinem and Robin Morgan and Jane Fonda. And I had a really wonderful opportunity there to get to work with them on a great many things and to help amplify women's voices in the media. And Gloria has been a great mentor and friend in my life. She inspires me. And many years before I worked at Women's Media Center, I worked at Planned Parenthood. And Gloria came in to help organize us for what was then the largest march on Washington, the March for Women's Lives. And the words that she said that day really inspired me. And so she's just someone who I have learned so much from about being a good human and also about how to organize and how to build community with folks with love and humility and justice. She's just such a great person, and I feel lucky to just have been able to have her in my life.

Oh, that's fantastic. So my last question is just so I know, for the future, did I ask you anything tone deaf today?

No. Although you gave me a pause with Ben Carson because I, you know, it's so funny. I haven't thought about that in a long time, but he's one of those folks that I just. I was so confused. I mean, I add Kanye west to that. He used to be my hero. And then I'm like, what happened? What went off the rails? What went wrong?

How about Condi Rice? Is she one of your heroes?

Kandi Rice is a really. It's a. She's an interesting one for me because there was a time in which my much younger self had a lot of critique about Condi Rice. And I remember, actually, one of the questions I asked Gloria when she came to speak at that march was, you know, how do we reconcile when there are people, when there are women in power who we believe are supporting people whose policies go against what we feel is right for our community and what's the highest good for us? And I said that I was really conflicted about Condi race because on one hand, I admired her as a black woman who had gone on to achieve so many great things and also knew of her history being connected to the church where the four little girls were killed in Alabama and having a great many talents that Condi has. And I just thought, what if she could use her powers for good based on my vision of the world and what is good, Right. During administration that I really had opposition to. And then I began to get curious about her and to actually go and find out, even though I disagreed with the positions of the administration she was in and still do, to find out what her personal beliefs were on a couple of issues that I was concerned about, to later find out that she was much more moderate than the president she was serving under during that time. And so, although based on my own calculus, I still wouldn't serve under that president. It helped me have a more nuanced approach to how I felt about what her leadership meant to me as a black woman and a young woman at that time looking up to her. And so I saw that she recently wrote an op ed as well about race. Right. And so I'm. So I'm still kind of asking myself that question that is it okay for me to admire a great many things about her and also think she's misguided on things? And I think that answer is true.

Well, but how about the contrast between Colin Powell's op ed and Condi Rice's op ed? Because let's just say Colin kind of really went for it. Right.

I will say that I'm a big Colin Powell fan. I love Colin Powell. And if you want a quick funny story, because I know I've kept you a long time, but I have a funny story about meeting Colin Powell that I think you will enjoy. So, growing up, my parents were obsessed with Colin Powell. And I always found that this was really strange because my parents were Democrats, been involved in the civil rights movement. And I thought, wow, but you love Colin Powell. So much so that all my friends, my boyfriend at the time, now my husband, like everyone since I was a kid and a teen who comes to visit, who's a loved one, got a laminated copy of Colin Powell's Rules for Leadership from my parents. I have one. That's right. Right now, I think. Oh, wait, let me see if I have one of them. I think it's in the kitchen right now, but I could show it to you.

Like, first, somebody shows up for a first date and your hat, your father hands them this.

It wasn't the first day, but it was like the first Thanksgiving, you know, to be like, oh, here's something you enjoy, son. Follow these rules. Right? So, yeah, like, strange, but, like, totally My parents. So my parents loved it so much that they had this laminated and then in, like, really beautiful frames in a couple of places in the house, these Colin Powell's leadership rules. Okay, so that was just like the house that I lived in. It can tell you a lot. And so I always was kind of like, what is it about this guy? Disagreed greatly with the administration, but then also saw that Colin Powell was a big supporter of Barack Obama and kind of began moving in a more progressive direction over time. And so his outspokenness against Donald Trump was also something that very much excited and titillated me, having grown up being taught be like, colon. So then I go to this party that was a celebration of Meghan Markle and Prince Harry's wedding at the British Embassy, and I went with some friends, and we were there, and it was a very interesting sort of culmination of people, because, you know, you saw some people like me there. My friend Charlotte Clymer, who is this awesome trans activist and speaker and writer. And then, you know, I see Sarah Sanders across the room. And then, you know, I see Sean Spicer over there. No awkward sort of selfie booth line when we're all trying to do it. But then as I'm sitting there with a lot of my feminist friends at this event, I see across the room, Colin Powell. So we are thinking. And one of them is also a younger black woman who grew up with a family that loved him. Also Democrat, but Colin Powell's beloved. We go over and we're like, Colin Powell, oh, my goodness. And so he says, and the best sort of dad voice, which I loved. He reminded me so much of my dad. He was like, girl, look what you started. Look what you're going to start right here. Look what you're starting. But I'll take the selfie, but this better not end up on Instagram. And I'm like, but you know it's going to end up on Instagram. And we had the best laugh. And he took the picture and he's like, okay, now. And so I said by the. I just have to tell you one thing. Because he's like, look, I got to go. Because now look what you started. All these people are coming over here trying to get selfies, girl. And I just said, look, I grew up and my parents used to give us all the Colin Powell's rules, and they handed them out to everyone. And he's like, are you following them? And I said, I try. And he said, good, follow them. So that was. That was the story. But it was amazing. And I'm sorry, Colin Powell, if you're hearing this, I did put it on Instagram, even though I know you don't approve.

Did he tell you? Call me maybe.

I wish. I wish. He was so quick, like, trying to get out of there, you know, Like, I mean, he was. He was true to his word. After that, as soon as our little bevy of young people, like, came over and dogpiled him, all these other people saw him and tried to get pictures, and I saw him kind of take those pictures and leave. So we blew his cover. But it was amazing. And I was even more obsessed after that day.

If it's true, okay, that's a big. That's a big caveat. If it's true, I want you to say that I did not ask you anything tone deaf in this interview, because I'm sure I'm gonna get some emails saying, God, how could you be so tone deaf and ask her a question, question like that? So I want. If it's true.

No, I didn't feel like there was nothing you asked me today that I feel uncomfortable with. Right. But I do think that there could be people who might be uncomfortable with the Ben Carson question. Or, you know, but I, for me, I did not feel uncomfortable. But I think what's interesting is I think right now there's a lot of things that are charged. Right. And I think that that's the conversation too, to have that. I think it is hard to know in certain cases what is and what is not if you're not a part of a specific experience. And I'm saying that because I was reading several statements that people had over the past week and like, statements with a lot of great intentions that people had or the past couple of weeks, but statements that there were things that were said in the statements that I had to say, oh, actually read like this. This is how it comes off. Or I have sensitivity read for a of years, couple of people's books recently and had to say, actually, did you know that this has this or that connotation? So I think what's good is when people say things like that too. I think we can learn a lot from them. Because even in my own language, there are a lot of things that I have learned with people just kind of naming it. And so that's why I also like to say that for me, I'd like to have conversations about how when we do kind of have these things that kind of bristle usually to say, oh, like when you said that this is how it made me feel that we could have a forum for how to have those conversations with each other, because I think that we could all learn in many different ways. And that's kind of why I shared the story. I mean, one of the things, too, that I saw, a beautiful piece today by Rebecca Coakley, I believe, is who wrote it. And it was about why when people say that Donald Trump is unwell, they're doing a disservice to the dispensation disability community. And I thought it was a really important, important piece because a lot of people are saying that, right. But they're actually not realizing what they're saying to people who are disabled and furthering stigma around disability and et cetera, without really knowing. Without. Without really knowing anything about Donald Trump's health history, but kind of using. Using that health terminology to talk about his misdeeds, like, could be harmful. And so I think it's just good to have those conversations about, like, how do we learn? How do we come be in conversation with each other about how to understand and communicate with each other more and empathy and. Because I am grateful to the people who've also been able to help. Help me do better when I've needed to do better.

Well, I think you certainly have improve my game, and I think you have added a lot of remarkable wisdom to the body of knowledge about how to get the American people to come together again. So I thank you for this.

Thank you.

And I look forward to the day when AOC and Jamia Wilson are running for president and vice president. I will send you whatever the limit of donation is.

Thank you. Oh, my gosh. Hey. I mean, from your mouth to God's ears. I would love that. You know, I love AOC so much. I wrote a children's book about her, so.

I know that's right. But you can be president and she can be VP or vice versa. Makes no difference to me. But, yeah, I'm there for you. Okay.

Oh, my goodness. Thank you so much. I want to.

Take care. Thank you. Well, you know, it's not like I have her on my Rolodex, so if you introduce me, she would be on this in a second. Consider her truly touch with her.

I actually don't. I haven't met her yet. Like, I haven't met her either, but I would love to. If I find out, I will surely connect you.

Well, between the two of us, surely we should be able to get to her, so.

Right.

I know what you can do here. You contact Colin Powell and ask him to contact her for us. I guarantee you that would work.

I would love that. Maybe I should, because unless he's still mad at me about Instagram.

Well, delete that before you do make the record.

I mean, it was so funny because he said. He just looked at me like this. He was like, girl, this better not end up on Instagram. I'm like, it is, though. It is.

Like, why else take the picture?

But. Exactly. I mean, we. It was. The picture turned out really cute, too. We all were just all over him. He's such a great man. I love him.

Well, Colin Powell, if you're listening now, you know. All right, thank you very much, and take care. If I can ever help you. Seriously, if I can ever help you, you just. You know how to get in touch with me. Okay.

Thank you so much. I hope to meet in person when the COVID chaos is over someday.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And if you ever want to try surfing, come to California.

Oh, hey, you know, I'm gonna hold you to that because it's on my list. I tried to go to black girl surf camp one year, and then I had to have surgery and couldn't go, so you're gonna have to teach me.

Well, we will take care of that.

I love it.

No problem. No problem. And my daughter's about your height, so we have wetsuits for you, so we're good. All right, take care. Thank you.

Take care. Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Don't forget to tell Colin Powell to listen to this episode. I hope that you agree that people like Jamia are what it's going to take to make America decent again. She is destined to do remarkable things in her career. I'm Guy Kawasaki, and this is remarkable people. Mahalo to Alyssa Camahort Page, who made this interview possible. My thanks to Jeff C. And Peg Fitzpatrick, who bring rays of sunshine into my life, too. And please go to the Apple podcast app and write a review so that I can read it into a future episode. Meanwhile, wash your hands, wear a mask, maintain social distance, Listen to scientists and doctors and very few politicians. This is remarkable people.