Jon M. Chu: Hollywood storyteller and director of Crazy Rich Asians and In the Heights

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I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is remarkable people. This episode's remarkable guest is John M. Chu. John is a film and television director, producer and screenwriter. He may be best known for directing Crazy Rich Asians and In the Heights. In fact, if you wanted to get the most out of this episode, you should stop right here and go and watch Crazy Rich Asians and In the Heights. Go ahead. We'll be waiting when you get back.

Welcome back.

Not that John would keep score this way, but his films have grossed more than $1 billion. The other films that he directed include Step Up 2, The Streets, Step Up 2, 3D, Jem and The Holograms. Justin Bieber Never say Never. I saw that. I love that movie. Justin Bieber's Believe now youw See Me Too and GI Joe Retaliation. John was born in Palo Alto and raised in Los Altos.

Here's a Small world.

When I lived in that area, I often ate at his parents restaurant. It's called Chef Choose. The restaurant is still operating in Los Altos. If you go there, do not miss the Beijing Duck, which you must order in advance. John is a graduate of the USC School of Cinematic Arts, where he created a student short called when the Kids Are Away. The great story is that John was discovered when Steven Spielberg saw the film. John is currently directing Wicked.

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Kawasaki. This is remarkable, people. And now here's the remarkable John M. Chu.

You might want to move the Yeti a little closer. Look at that. I'm telling John M. Chu what to do with video and audio. My life is complete.

How's that? How's that?

That's good.

That's good. I got into Max when I was a freshman in high school. I mean, really into Max. And I would ditch my classes to go to Mac World every year. Yeah. So me and my buddy, we would go to Mac World, and sometimes he had a hookup, sometimes I had a hookup because my parents had a restaurant there. And sometimes we paid for it because you get, like, the student. You can get a student class or whatever. And so I. And I. I read. And so you were a legend. You are a legend. And. And that was also when Loving Apple wasn't that cool, because they were. It was 90. I don't know, 5, 94, 95ish area. And I had Mac user. Mac World subscriptions. I'd keep every issue because I love to go back and look. So I had piles and piles of these magazines. And of course, your articles in them were the best. They're always the best. You're always the smartest. The one that, like, spoke the people's voice.

These things we can just enter and the interview right here. Can't get any better than that.

Exactly.

I went to Stanford when the rich people's parents came and they took all their friends to dinner. We only went to two places. Chef choose or Ming's.

And I loved both of those places. We go to Ming's every Sunday. Yeah, totally. We were friends with the family and. But we went there. Yeah. Every week.

Wow.

For sure. So it was all love. It was all love. In the bay. There's enough room for all the Chinese.

Restaurants going to Ming's. That was kind of the center of my world because it was right next to Carlson, Porsche, Arti. So my whole world was complete there. You get chicken salad and you can look at Porsches. What else do you need?

You know, there's also, like, the duck pond where we would go after and feed the ducks over there, because it was like, yum cha on Sundays. It was. So that's what. Yeah. And they had a huge parking lot, so you never had to worry about parking.

Unlike Chef Choose.

Chef Choose. You gotta. You gotta find your spot. You gotta get there early. We had the Tower Records across Kitty Corner.

Chef Choose. That was the original, wasn't it?

Yeah, yeah. Was it the original? I didn't know if it was the original. I love that Tower Records. I'd spend hours at that Tower Records. We'd be dropped off at Chef choose, do our homework, and then we'd go over there and. And hang out. Penguins yogurt. Penguins yogurt right there. That was amazing. I remember when that opened, how crazy it was to get that yogurt.

Nothing like a high content interview.

But I have to say, when I went to the Oscars one one year, our dance company was performing and in the VIP area. So Steve Jobs walked past me. And I never met Steve Jobs. And I was like, oh, my gosh, that's Steve Jobs. And I walked towards him, but I wasn't going to talk to him because I. You never know. I didn't want him to. They say never meet your heroes. I'm sure he didn't want to be bothered and I didn't want to know how he would treat me if I bothered him that day. So instead, my friend went up to him and was talking to him because my friend was in a bunch of his ipod commercials back in the day. So he was talking to him. He's like, oh, you know John, my friend John wants to meet you. And grabs my hand and pulls me over to Steve Jobs. And Steve was like, oh, hi. I was like, hi. And I had a couple. I had already a couple of champagnes in my system. So I was like, I was all red. I have the Asian red glow. I also get a rash. So I had a rash as well. And then he. And I was like, oh, you know, we're. We're neighbors. I grew up in Los Altos. And he's. Oh, Los Altos. He's like, you are. You're a neighborhood kid. And I was like, my parents have this restaurant, Chef Cheese. He's like, oh, yeah, that's great. That's so. So we connected on Los Altos. And then a second later, Bob Iger came over and was like, Steve, oh, did you get to meet John? I directed. My first two movies were these Step up movies which were distributed by Disney and. Or Touchstone. And Steve was like, oh. And Bob Iger said, oh, he directed these movies called the Step up movies. Have you heard of them? And Steve Jobs was like, no, never. But his wife turned around who was in a conversation behind him like, oh, our daughters have, and they love it. So I was like, yes. And then Steve Jobs continued to Tell Bob. I'm like, oh, no, but we are neighbors. He's like, we're like hometown buddies. So he had my bag there. And then I proceeded drunk on champagne to recite the Think different commercial back to him by heart, which I was a little drunk. So.

Since we're like, totally off topic already, sorry. I'll tell you a Think different story.

Yes, please.

So I was an Apple fellow back then, and Steve had just sold the company next to Apple, so he was kind of hanging around Apple. So there was this meeting of all the marketing people, and me as an Apple fellow, and Steve and the guy from Chia Day who did the Think different commercial. Okay? So the shy day guy shows the commercial. We all love it. And at the end of this with Steve sitting there, he says to Steve, steve, I have two copies of these commercials. I'll give one to you and one to Guy. And Steve says, don't give one to Guy. Okay? This is in front of 30 people, right? And so at that point, I said, screw it. What's he gonna do to me? So I said, steve, are you saying that you can't trust me? That why I shouldn't get a copy? And he says, yes, Guy. And I said, steve, that's okay, because I don't trust you either. And that probably cost me $200 million, but it was worth it.

That is amazing. Being in that room would have been amazing to see even that interaction alone. But I remember it was Sunday night. A Wonderful World of Disney Toy Story was premiering on ABC that night. And so me and my buddy were like, this is the night that Steve Jobs and Apple are putting their first commercial out since he's been back. This is going to be a momentous moment. They're going to declare who they are, and we've been waiting for this. And so I remember sitting there that night, watching it live and being so moved by that commercial. So anyway, that's why I memorized it and then repeated it to him. But, you know, during that, when I said it to him, he jumped in and repeated it with me. By the end, we were saying it together. So it was.

Oh, man, that would have been a moment.

I'm glad I didn't bring up your name. He would.

That asshole. I'm so glad. Ever since he left Apple, we've been doing. Well, before we get too far, Peg Fitzpatrick, who is the producer of this podcast, is a great fan, and I know she expects some great stories about the swimming pool scene. So can we take care of that right now?

Okay. We got. I got. I have way too many stories about the swimming pool scene. And I can set it up. The swimming pool scene is in. In the Heights, my latest film that Lin Manuel Miranda created with Chiara Alegria Houthis. And we have this big number called 96,000. And the. The local pool and all the neighborhood comes out, and someone has won $96,000 in the lottery, but nobody knows who it is. So everyone's dreaming about what they would do with 96,000. So she wants to know some stories. One, I would tell you that it was freezing cold. That water was freezing cold. And we had over 600 extras and dancers there that day from the ages of 4 to 80 something years old, and lights everywhere. So we had to make sure no one was gonna get electrocuted. So that was very scary. We had lifeguards every 30ft, so nobody drowned. We had to have towels that were constantly being dried over and over and over again so that people didn't get hypothermia. There was thunderstorms. So every time you heard a rumble, by law, we have to shut down and bring down all our generators and. And wait 30 minutes. And the moment you hear another thunderstorm or thunder in the distance, you have to wait another 30 minutes. So you never knew when we had to get back in. And it got so cold that the dancers started to refuse to go into the water. And so I had to take off my clothes and get into the water with them. So I directed while in the pool with them. So anyway, I don't know if that's one or 12 stories about the pool, but pretty good.

What about the story that when Vanessa is sitting in the inner tube, the dancers were creating waves, so you couldn't shoot that in one shot. Is that a true story?

That is true. So now we're in the pool. I'm in the pool anyway, because I have to be in there so I know what the dancers are going through in this cold water. And she's in the middle, and everyone's dancing around her. And we have a giant camera doing an overhead shot, and everyone's dancing and splashing. What we didn't take into account because we didn't have a big enough pool to ever really rehearse this thing, was that when they splash around, her inner tube's gonna go everywhere and she's never gonna be centered. So we tried all sorts of things. We put sandbags and tied her down to the floor, and every time she would be spinning. It was crazy. So the only thing that would help. It was me and another dancer swam in the middle, and we got under her floaty and held it by our hands. So I'm like underneath it holding it or just a little bit off camera trying to hold it in center so it doesn't move. And so anyway, and then CGI put the.

All the other swimmers around her.

Well, we had done. We did two passes. We did a pass where she's sitting there and I'm holding it, and then a pass where nobody's there and she's sitting there. They're pretty short shots, actually, in the movie. Any shots that we needed to adjust her or she's not singing, the right moments at the thing. We could piece it together a little bit there.

Could you make the argument that if the pandemic had not happened and that pool was closed, you probably could not have had that pool for three days and made the shot?

Well, the reality is we shot this the summer before the pandemic. So this was pre pandemic. We had almost been done with the movie by the time the pandemic. I'm not sure if we hadn't shot the movie by the time the pandemic happened. I don't think this movie gets made. There's no way at that time. So we tried the summer before that. Said they wouldn't allow us to shoot there unless we shot. Because they filled the pool about four days, maybe a little. Maybe six days before the public lets in. So it's been empty all. You know, when we scouted it, that's why we couldn't rehearse in it. They filled. And they wouldn't fill the pool earlier for us. So they filled the pool six days before. That's when we got access to it. And we only got it until the day six days later when they opened the pool. And so it's fresh water, which is why the water was freezing cold. We put a heater in and heated it for a week. And even that wasn't enough. Those pools are so huge. So anyway, yes, they had to be closed down for us to shoot. It was just pre summer that we got in there. So.

And New York has a law that you can't use a drone to make those shots.

There's a lot of laws about drones in New York. And you cannot fly above people. So, you know, YouTubers can do anything with the drone. And we're. So. They're doing amazing shots for us. We have so many restrictions because we're a giant corporation and it's a giant whole thing. We can never fly, and that's a problem on every movie. Sometimes a helicopter is easier to get to shoot a scene like that than a drone, even though it's way more dangerous in my book. The fact is they have laws with the helicopter stuff, and they have no laws with the drones, so everyone doesn't allow it.

Why is 33 your favorite number?

Wow, you guys did research. 33, I believe 33 is the year that everything changes in your life, for good or for bad. Everyone I know, when you think about the age of 30, 33, that's when I met my wife. That's when my. I went on a different trajectory of who I wanted to be as an artist, as a human being, and. And everyone I've talked to or all my friends at 33, something big has happened. Three used to be my favorite number, but 33 is, like double the fun, so. So I think those two things keep it. Keep it tight to me.

And. And 96th street is the border between poverty and wealth. That's the 96, 000.

I didn't know this going fully into the movie until talking with Lynn as we broke down his lyrics. And I asked him about that and. And, yeah, according to him, like, that's $96,000 can change your life, but not forever. And so it's like a very interesting line. And for him, anything above 96th street was sort of where the. Where they lived, and anyone below it was. Was a different type of person than he was. So their goal was always to get below 96 streets. Which is why in the lyrics also, you know those tourists who, like, oh, I've never been above 96th Street. Like, they never come to this part.

Of town that's like, which side of 85 are you on?

Yeah, exactly.

When you were, you know, a kid and you fell in love with editing and all that, were your parents, like, instant you tell this story about. You showed them the editing and everybody was in tears and all that. So from that moment, were they, like, all in, or did they want you to get a real job, like dentist, lawyer, doctor?

Yeah, I mean, so I edited our films together from one of our vacation trips. We got a little mixer from Sharper Image, and I showed them on our tv. I was young. I don't remember exactly the age, but I remember showing that I was probably fifth grade. And I showed them, and they started to cry. And that's when I knew I wanted to do this for the rest of my life. They made me take a lot of instruments. Drums, saxophone, violin, piano. Guitar. I wasn't good at any of them. I took a lot of art classes. I loved to draw. I was pretty good at drawing, but not the best in my class. I took dance classes. We went to shows every weekend. I watched movies all the time, TV shows. But I was never amazing at any one of those things. But when I edited, suddenly all that knowledge of all the different things came together. And so being able to express myself to them gave me. It felt like breathing, to be honest, for the first time. Like, this is something I exhaled from me. And so when they saw that, and no, they did not immediately say, yes, this is. You're going to do great at this. In fact, they were the opposite. They thought it was fun to watch, but they wanted me to be. I was their youngest, so I'm their last chance to have a doctor in the family. They made me. They literally made me say, when anyone asked, like, what do you want to be when you grow up? I would have to say, like, brain surgeon. Literally. I think that's in, like, my yearbook. But they knew I didn't want to do that. I was not even smart enough. And there was one night I had convinced all my teachers to let me make videos instead of write papers in high school because I had video equipment. All my video equipment came from people from the restaurant who would come in and give. My parents. They knew I was a filmmaker, so they give me all this equipment. So I was literally bred by Silicon Valley to be a filmmaker with stuff that people my age could not have access to. This was not the day of the iPhone and. And video cards built in, like you had to buy. I had a Vincent 601 card from Media 100, and I had the Breakout box, and I had a video vision from Radius. So anyway, I was editing paper. Editing movies instead of writing papers for my classes. And my mom came in one night, I was editing at like 2 in the morning, 3 in the morning. Something like, really in the middle of the night. She was so mad, she unplugged my computer, which at those times, if you unplug, you don't have anything left. They can ruin everything. And she's like, you've conned your school. I'm calling them tomorrow. This is terrible. She went to bed. I got up in the middle of the night and went to her, and I said, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. So you can either support me or fight me. And went back to bed. And the next day, she came to school with a pile of Filmmaking books and said, if you're going to study this seriously, you have to study it like a craft, like a real subject. From then on, they, they have my back.

Wow.

100%. I also think because I was the youngest, they gave up. They're like, we have other issues.

This is like when Rachel Chu tells her prospective mother in law, oh yeah, Nick can go marry somebody else and everything gets resolved. Right?

Yeah, it was, I mean, Michelle, Yo, Eleanor in that reminds me so much of my mom.

Oh, really?

Which is, I think why we, I think that's why Michelle and I connected so much on this character. Because Michelle from the very beginning said, I'm not going to be a villain in this movie. You know that, right? I was like, great. Because I don't think mothers like that are villains. I think they're doing this because of love and they want to protect their families. And I get that. But I also get the other side of a kid trying to break away from that idea of that control and trying to have their own life. So it was a great. I think that's really helped the movie to have that kind of nuance. So.

And when you proposed to your wife, did you use your mom's ring for the engagement?

No, I did not. No. I'm the youngest. My mom gave all her jewelry away to the other, you know, my sisters and my brother. My brother has my dad's watch. I got nothing. The only thing I got was from the engineers of Silicon Valley.

Well, at least you remember your friends. Yeah.

Yes.

I read many things about you and one of those things talks about your cultural identity crisis. Now what kind of cultural identity crisis does John Am Chu have in his past?

I mean, honestly, it was something that I ignored. I didn't have a crisis for so long because I didn't want to deal with any of that. I, in a way, I watched my parents come to the States. Why didn't watch them go to the States? But I was raised in a way that they wanted to protect us, to never feel othered here. So people saying stuff to my parents when we're out, little side comments under their breath, or people treating us poorly, they never reacted. They always told me, even in the restaurant, when people would treat them poorly, they always told me, john, because I would get upset and they would say, john, we're probably one of the first Chinese families they're meeting here. 1969, they were there. And so like, as we've been here, we, we are ambassadors to this. And so some of these people obviously know Chinese people, but may not be close with them. And so if they leave here, no matter what, happy and their belly full, maybe the next time they see another Chinese family, they will treat them with some respect. And so that was always there. Well, for good or for bad, by the way, I'm not sure that's the way you should always react nowadays especially. But for them, they needed to do that to move forward and to survive. And for me, it helped because I didn't have the baggage. It wasn't until much later that even, like even two months ago, when the Asian hate stuff has been happening everywhere and we're sort of reassessing how we were raised and what do we need to speak of? Why haven't we spoken up and what's this up? My sister was like, do you remember going to Tower Records across the street and after school one day and a car pulling over and saying all those crazy things to get out of this country to us? We were like, we were so young. We were probably 10 and 8. And they said all this stuff and called us the C word and all these things. Do you remember that? And I was like, no, I don't. And the more I thought about it, I was like, oh, yeah. She's like, you were laughing the whole time because you thought it was funny. And I was like, yeah, that's right. I didn't understand any of those words. It didn't bother me at all. And she's like, I've thought about it all these years. That was so. Because she was just old enough to understand what that was saying to her. And so again, I might have missed some of those things because I was just young enough to not understand some of those things. And then taught in the ways of my parents to not give any energy to people who would say those things. It wasn't until much later, even going to college, where things, I started to become more aware of how people saw me, how they would treat me when I walked into a room, because it was no longer Los Altos. Now you're in LA and they, they. They tell you how they feel to you in your face. So that's when I started to figure. And I went to USC film school. And at USC film school, I saw a short film, a comedy about a girl's dating, like her habits of dating. And the last joke in that film, and I'll never forget this, I'm sitting in the theater hopeful and excited about going to college. And the last joke of this thing is, she opens the door and it's an Asian dude for the last date, and she doesn't even let him talk. She says no, and she shuts the door on his face. And the whole crowd laughed. And I was sitting there, and I never occurred to me. I'm like, why is that funny? Why is that funny to everyone? Oh, because this guy's Asian. And of course you would never date this guy. Like, that really affected me. And so the next year, when I was in that film class, I was like, I'm making a short that's going to destroy that notion. And so I made a short called Guai Lo, the Little Foreigner, which is what they called me when I went to Hong Kong for the first time, which is like White Devil, basically, and wrote it about an Asian American kid growing up in America and being torn between what his family wants him to be and what his schoolmates want him to be. And in the end, when I. We. And it was a musical, we showed it at the big screening, and it went out, went really well. Everybody loved it. It was great. But for me, I was still really unsure about it, so I never submitted it to film festivals. I basically buried it because I felt so insecure about what I was saying in it. Like, I wasn't sure if what I was saying was right because people would ask, people don't say that stuff to you. And then I would be like, well, they do, but if you don't believe it, then what's the point? Like, I didn't have all the answers. And so I never released that movie. And instead I did other types of movies and said, I'm not touching the subject matter of my own cultural identity because it's just too sensitive. I don't know if I'm giving the right answers. So for 10, 12 years, making other movies is what I did, and it worked. I was able to make great movies at studios. I mean, some people don't think they're great, but, like, for me, like, great experiences. But at the end of that road, 12 years later, 10 years later, somewhere in that zone, I realized I didn't know who I was as a. I knew that I knew how to make movies. Now I didn't know who I was as an artist. And so I needed to start going back to the things that challenged me. And the first thing on that list was, oh, yeah, that thing that I'm so scared to talk about, which is my cultural identity crisis. In school, people made fun of me for being Chinese, and yet other friends, other Chinese friends made fun of me for being too Americanized. And So I lost either way, no matter where I went. Similar with my dad's restaurant, people would say, oh, it's not authentically Chinese. And I was like, I'm pretty sure it is too. But he also had to make adjustments to survive in 1969. And so, again, being an ambassador, that carrying that weight of listening, I'm not anything that you think I am, and I'm maybe an identity that hasn't been fully defined. And what I did when we started looking for projects like that, I realized there's a lot more of us out there that felt the same way that that I did. I was not myself an immigrant. My parents were immigrants that came here, and I had to bridge that gap. And that's where I found crazy rich Asians and in the Heights. At the same time, that spoke to that side of me.

And is this cultural identity now resolved because of those two movies?

Oh, hell no. No. But you know what?

It.

What that. What the. What the movie. What Crazy Rich Asians did for me was realized I'm not alone in this. It united a bunch of us that I had known in the business but never. I never connected with on a very personal level. And again, this is five years ago, let's say, like, when you walked into a room and you're the only Asian dude, and you've got into this group of white people that don't treat you like the Asian dude in the group, it felt like an accomplishment. So another Asian guy coming into that, you bristled up a little bit, and you're like, oh, you're the other Asian dude. Don't mess this up for me. Basically, like, don't make me look bad and don't make this about the Asians versus the other people. It's just, like, an instinct, and I think a lot of people would do that. And I think what happened with crazy rich Asians and even just that cultural awakening for me, even Twitter, helped make me realize, oh, we're not against each other. We actually, like, need each other, and we get each other. And now when I see another Asian person on set, I walk towards them, and I literally say to them, like, I got your back. Like, I got you. I'm glad you're here. Keep doing. You're doing, because we need you. I think the whole experience of crazy rich Asians opened my brain to. We are all struggling. Our same. The same struggle. And in that, it unites us, and we are actually our job. If we're tearing down systems right now to rebuild them in better ways, then we better rebuild them then. Our goal is, okay, what is the story we want to tell about America? What is the story you want to tell about Asian Americans to the world? Because now we're in that. We have people in the driver's seat. And so go do that. So I think that changed again. It's not a resolution to my cultural identity crisis. It's a path to help figure it out with other people who are going through the same thing. Sure.

I will tell you a story that. Similar to your dad, about me. Not. Yes, okay. So I was living in San Francisco on Union street, right. Where Union street dead ends into the. Oh, God, what's the name of that. That military installation there that is now converted and it's.

Yeah, the Presidio.

Presidio, right. So I'm living on Union street right near the Presidio, and one day I'm outside trimming my bougainvilleas and this older white woman comes up to me and says, do you do lawns? Okay.

Oh, no.

I said to her, just because I'm Japanese, you think I'm the yard man, right? She goes, no, no, no. It's because you're doing such a great job trimming your bougainville. I want to know if you also do lawns. So that's good enough story right there about stereotyping. But wait, it gets better. So two weeks later, my father visits me from Hawaii and I'm sansei. So I tell him this story and I fully expect him to just go off on this woman like, how dare she ask you if you're the yard man? Because you're j. Japanese and you went to Stanford, you worked at Apple, blah, blah, blah, written five books. But you know what he said to me, John? He said, you know what, son? Statistically, on Union street where you live, a Japanese man cutting the hedge probably is the yard man. So get over it.

Don't take it personally.

Take the high road. She probably meant nothing by it. And that was a very formative experience in my life ever since then. It really takes a lot to offend me. So.

Wow. Yeah, I, that's, that's funny. It's funny because you being your picture, being in articles and in newspapers of a good looking Asian man, that has power and is not, it's not every article wasn't about you being Asian at all. To me was always. Those were beacons of light for me, consciously or subconsciously that, yeah, we, we belong here, or someone like, you can belong here.

Like, yeah, you know, I, I didn't write rich dad, poor dad. Right. That's Kiyosan.

Oh, that's not. Oh, shit. What am I doing here?

Wrong guy. So I. I tried to verify this, but I'm not quite sure. So Rachel Chu, her last name being Chu, that was in the original book. Or did you just take directors?

I'll probably get killed if I. If I change it myself. No, that's in the original book.

Okay.

And this is crazy about it. Is that Kevin Kwan? What? I did not know when I signed on to this. Only like a week after. Kevin Kwan is very good friends with my cousin Vivian Chu, who lives in New York. And so they were, like, very, very close. And Vivian apparently would tell stories about the Chu family in Cupertino that she would visit, which is our hurt side of the family over there. And she would tell these crazy stories of us. Not the crazy rich part of it, but the. Just the crazy chew part. And. And so apparently he. A lot of this stuff because the Chu family in the book is from Cupertino. Yeah. Not Flushing. So a lot of it, I guess, is based off some of her stories of our family, which is crazy. And I'm even mentioned in the book. He says Nick is defending Rachel and her family to his mother in the book. And he says to his mother, like, you know, yes, they may not have money like we do, but they work hard for their money and they get places. They even have a cousin who shoots movies in Hollywood, which is. Oh, my God, crazy. I remember reading that in the book and having. No. And I remember being. Oh, that's weird. That's. But you know, when you read things or you see something happens to you, you always think, oh, there must be a camera somewhere, and I'm on a reality show or something. But then never happened. Never real. But when he told me we went out to dinner for the first time, he told me. He's like, you know, you're in the book. I was like, that's crazy, dude.

Oh, that is crazy.

Wow.

What is your opinion of the status of Asians in Hollywood these days? I mean, that was a breakout film, right? Was all Asian cast and now.

Yeah.

Are things all great or is it. That was a blip. And now we're back to.

Well, Hollywood is slow. The world is slow. Changing systems is slow. So I didn't expect overnight, but I do think there was a moment there. And I think more than just the movie, it was the moment that infrastructure was put into place. Gold House was put into place. Connecting dots of all these Asian groups that were doing different things in the entertainment industry, could come together and rally around one thing. And once you build those nervous systems, you can't take those down. And so I think that allows us to rally, allows us to organize in ways that we were never able to before. This is only three and a half years later. I saw a trailer for Immortals, Marvel's new movie starring the star of that movie is Gemma Chan. The advertisement for that movie on YouTube, the advertisement before it was Snake Eyes starring Henry Golding, who by the way, before a movie had never acted before. And then the ad for that one. So there's two ads before was Marvel Shang Chi with Awkwafina and Ronny Cheng and Simu and so. And Michelle Yeoh. So within three years, these actors have become. That's the big breakthrough is that they make their own path. It's not about crazy rich Asians anymore. It's about these actors who every movie they're becomes a starring vehicle for them that changes things for the future, that allows other people to get used to our face in leading roles, in romantic roles, in heroic superhero roles, in dramatic roles, in award types thing. When you see Awkwafina winning a Golden Globe, it just gives permission. So it's not fixed and there's not a button to fix it. It's a cultural shift that everybody moves together on. So it takes time and we take a step forward, two steps back. So, okay, we just all have to keep it going. It doesn't take one movie, it doesn't take five movies, it takes hundreds of movies to, to really change things.

I might have to edit this out, but in a sense you're saying that yellow is the new white. But I.

I think yellow was always actually gold.

So, okay, when crazy rich Asians was about to come out, you guys are rather pessimistic about its acceptance. Right? And so would you make the argument that without social media and the ability for this word of mouth to build, would crazy rich Asians have succeeded?

Crazy rich Asians wouldn't exist without social media the movie. Because it's social media that woke me up. It's social media during Oscars so white that I read for the first time and made me aware of the problems with Hollywood. Even though I understood it intellectually before I didn't understand it. I understand that it was changeable until seeing this guy, William Yu, who on Twitter who posted a hashtag, hashtag starring John Cho and he basically made these posters of all these big action movies that usually star Matt Damon or Tom Cruise. And he instead, he put John Cho in it as 007, as all these roles. And I'm looking at the posters and I'm realizing, oh, yeah, this could totally happen. And I know the system and I know, like the people in place how to make that happen. And all the things that you would say, why can't this happen? But when I see the poster, I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And that can happen. And then it was, why isn't that happening? And it made me question my own business and all the facts that I was fed for so many years. Who doesn't sell internationally? What can you do domestically versus. And in the end, it made me really angry and pushed me to think I can do something. I can actually. It's not. I don't have to, like, go debate it on Twitter. I don't have to go on a news channel and talk about it. I literally, if I decide to make a movie and cast all Asian actors, I can just do that. I've made enough money for these studios. I probably have one free one for them that I can do. So I could. I'm one of the only people who can actually change that. And so that put me to the fire. So, yes, social media, absolutely. Without it crazy, which creations wouldn't exist? And then for its release, absolutely. I believe Gold House, Gold opening all helped solidify a base for us, a foundation for us to grow.

Since you're such a nerd.

Who said I was a nerd?

John?

You made nerds being cool, literally.

I have a firm grasp of the obvious, John. So what's the role of movie theaters going forward? And like, when you're making a movie now, are you planning that, oh, in the Heights is going to be streamed on Apple TV and it's going to be in a movie theater. Does that affect your directing? And what do you keep in mind now?

It's confusing, man. It's hard. You know, the last time I made a movie was before it became even harder. We chose crazy rich Asians to be a theatrical release over Netflix, even though they wanted it. Not because we didn't like Netflix and not because we're against streaming. It's because we knew that a cultural shifting movie event, the space that was so precious to people was the space of paying money and going into the dark and watching something. And a giant corporation advertising millions and tens of millions of dollars to say, these people are worth your time and the space and your attention, turning off your phones to pay attention to it. And so in the Heights was a similar strategy of, hey, we could do this. We can get all the money we want and do this on streaming. And in a way, it would be a lot easier for me. I don't have to worry about reviews. I don't have to worry about box office. It's a win no matter what. They can say whatever they want because they don't release the numbers so they can declare victory a million times over. But I knew, Lynn knew, we all knew that the power still in cinema is that it can be culture shifting very quickly because there's very few things that block our time for two hours in the dark and our attention for two hours. Very few things other than traffic. And it's a cultural exchange of, we're giving you money, so tell us a story and we'll listen. Because we want our money or we want our investment to be worth it. You don't get that on streaming. You may get that in a series because you have, you know, a month to. Or you binge 14 hours or something. So it embeds itself into your soul and you, over time, give it enough space. But for a movie, I. We needed to do that. And unfortunately, in the Heights, in the movie theater, didn't do as well as we had hoped. However, I think the impact is still very strong. You see Anthony Ramos becoming the lead of Transformers. Now you see Leslie Grace becoming Batgirl in the DC Universe. Now you see Melissa Barrera become the lead in the new Scream franchise. So all these new faces that did not have a place before have a place because of it. And so I think cinema still has that place. I just think it's a lot trickier.

May I point out to you that you've done this several times, that in a sense, you measure your success not by awards, not by Rotten Tomatoes score, not by money. You're measuring your success by the future success of your actors and actresses. That's a very interesting concept.

I think that we're telling the story of what we want to be. And I think I love movies and I love making my movies. I love the process. But the end product is two hours of somebody's time and it floats away. But the things that stick there, the thing that actually has meaning, that is worth the time that I take away from my family to go make this thing that the ripple effect, that stuff is the thing that fills you. That's the thing that makes every fight, every struggle, every up and down in this business worth it. It transcends some angry reviewer in wherever they are it transcends a rotten tomato score. By the way, most of my Rotten Tomato scores are terrible. I've become used to Terrible rotten, so. But the fans who go see it love my movies. So.

Wait, wait, so Crazy Rich Asians is like 91?

Well, crazy rich Asians and In the Heights have great. Have great, great scores. My other movies, not so much. Okay, but that doesn't. That never discouraged me because Justin Bieber fans went nuts for Never say Never, and it became a part of his legacy. The Step up fans. I still get people coming up to me saying their favorite movie of mine is Step up to the Streets. And, you know, that got terrible reviews. So in a way, I also grew up in this business with thick skin, and those things meant nothing to me from the very beginning, because they couldn't.

I'll tell you, I am 67 years old, and I love Never say Never. And in fact, I've been to two Justin Bieber concerts. I'm sorry. So proud of that daughter. That's right.

There you go. No, I. I loved making that movie, too. I love that group. I love what we learned from that. It was a. A Silicon Valley fairy tale of showing how kids at home chose their next pop star. Yeah. And made this guy's dream come true.

With his mom's help.

With his mom's help, Absolutely. With a whole family. Even mom and beyond. He's like your talented cousin that you. You was kind of a brat, but you rooted for it because he was so talented. And look, he survived. He's doing great. So I. I root for him.

So we've mentioned Rotten Tomatoes a few times. If somebody said to you, okay, you can either get a Golden Globe or, you know, 99 on rotten tomatoes, what would you pick?

I don't know if Golden Globes exist anymore, so I couldn't choose Golden Globe. But I certainly don't care about my Rotten Tomatoes score. I'll take my daughter knowing the words, all the words to in the Heights song, above any of that stuff.

Okay. But she's what, three or four?

I'll take my daughter. So one of my favorite moments of any movie I've made is when we're watching Awkwafina Nora win the Golden Globe best Actor. And I start screaming up and down. I said, she did it. She did it. My daughter Willow starts jumping out, who's three at the time. She's like, we did it. We did it. She's like, what did we do? I was like, she won. She made it. That's like the first Ever. It's crazy. And then a week later, we're walking in the subway in New York, and we see a poster for her TV show Awkwafina. And my daughter starts saying, dad, she did it. She did it. I'm like, what? What are you talking about? She points to the poster and there's Nora. And that just means so much when she sees someone who looks like her and cheers for her and roots for her.

That's great. That's a great story. How does a Chinese guy from Los Altos connect the dots to Latinos in Washington Heights? How does that work?

You shut up and listen. You get a great tour guide, which is Lin Manuel Miranda. Well, that helps. Yeah. And Kiara. I remember seeing the show for the first time on Broadway and being completely moved by it. It was in a language of music that I had not seen in a Broadway show before, which we now know. It's because Lyn is a genius. It said things about living in an immigrant community, being raised by not just your mom and dad, but by your aunties and your uncles and your abuela Claudia, that I knew what it felt like. I was raised by my mom's sisters and her and our whole family. We had dinners every night with 30 people at our house, cooking together. And so even though I wasn't from there, he tapped on something that I could never express, even as a storyteller myself, I could never express in a story. So I remember being very moved by that A decade later is when the script came to me and they asked if I would be interested. And I had to have a very frank conversation with Lyn about I attached to it, but I'm not from here. And would you give me permission? Because I know how to tell this story in a movie. I know how to translate this and communicate and actually communicate to other people who are not of this community. But you're going to need to guide me in every step of the way. And so he's like, john, I'm going to be right there for you. Don't worry. I was like, okay, perfect. So it was a much. It was a great collaboration of music and dance and story and culture exchanging. And because I had done Crazy Rich Asians, thank God, I had done it before. I knew the space to give it. I knew where to focus, whether it was listening to people about the food. Hey, what's the food? How do you organize the food when you put it on a table? What are the little details that your abuela Claudia of your home has in there? Oh, it's the calendar on the wall. That's from the supermarket. Oh, it's the homemade sauce and what kind of bottle usually. Okay. And those details I knew went a long way. And as a director, you're kind of the only one who can make space on the day. You're the only one who can take a left when you're scheduled to take a right. And so let's say Leslie's hair, she had her big curls, and it was, like, in her face. A lot of productions would move, change the hairstyle so it's not in her face. Instead, we're saying, no, this is a part of who she is. You change the lighting, you change the camera angle to get the hair with her face better. And so those are the kind of things that we just. We all helped each other every inch.

I have to ask, like, what is it like working with Lynn? I can tell you what it's like working with Steve Jobs. You can tell.

Let's do that. Let's do that exchange. I'll start. I'll start. And then you go, lynn is everything you hope he is. Everything he presents himself to be, he is. He wears exactly who he is on his sleeve. When he's on. On the microphone or off the microphone, he acts the exact same way. We had a meeting for extras in the neighborhood that I never go to. Extras gather, they gather extras. They take pictures. They put them on a wall. I go there, they pre sort of cut them. I go into a room full of, like, hundreds of pictures, and I pick the type of whatever environment I want the school to be in or the environment that I want this scene to be in. So I never go to the place where they take the picture. He called me, was like, where are they doing that? I was like, oh, down the street at the theater. And he's like, I'm going to. And he goes there and makes a speech to these people who are all coming in to take a photo of how much this means to him, how much this means to the community, how much he appreciates them. That's the sign of a true leader. Took time out of his. Out of Lin Manuel Miranda's day, which he's packed, full day, like, he doesn't have time for anything. He'll make it for his neighborhood. I look up to that every, every, every moment. So that is what it's like to work with him. Okay, it's crazy, but he always described himself as. He's like, john, I'm always the guy. I'm the guy who does his Homework on his way to school. Like, he's so talented and he has so much going on, but his biggest talent is when push comes to shove, he can focus. And he is literally a gifted person, a gifted human being that can drum it up when sparked.

Does he use a Macintosh?

He does. Yes, he does.

You think he knows who I am? So if I asked him for an interview, he'd say yes. Oh, you are my childhood hero.

Maybe. You never know. You never know.

So you know that scene where Vanessa kisses. What's the guy's name?

Usnavi.

Yeah. And. And they were kissing and they were kind of kissing through the freezer door.

Oh, yes.

In the bodega. Yeah. So who comes up with an idea like that? Did you say, oh, let's have them kiss through the freezer door? That would be, you know.

Well, they don't exactly kiss through that freezer door, but that moment they get real close. They get real close. So a moment like that, which is not in the. Not in the show itself, that was something that me, Kiara, the writer Vanessa, played by Melissa and Anthony Ramos, who plays Usnavi. We came up to that together because we realized. We were in a rehearsal and we realized this moment in between her song, because she's singing. It's in between her song, singing about what she dreams of and how she's not seen. She gets kind of ignored. People just see her for her beauty, they don't see her for her. And we wanted a moment where we realize why she needs him and why he needs her. Like how he sees her when she can't even see herself. And he knows how to cheer her up even when she says she doesn't need cheering up. And so that moment came out of what would you do if she came in and she was depressed but didn't want to say it? What would you do? And naturally, Anthony said, I would make her laugh. And he is funny like that. So we came up with this idea like, oh, what if you came up to her and you. And I think he's the one who said, I'll just blow and make a little smiley face or something. And then he ad libbed that day, putting his nose up against it and rubbing down. He's just naturally charming like that. And she couldn't help but smile at that because their chemistry is really, actually electric. And yet she will never. She also is strong like him, so she would never give him the satisfaction of seeing that smile. So her shutting the door and walking away. But it's a delicate line because she can't be too mean to him because she's mean to him. We're not gonna like her. Melissa Barrera is an amazing actor. Cause she walks that line so finely. She's tough on him, but not judgmental on him. And gives us enough room where she can come back to him and rub the stain off of his shirt, as if she's flirting with him and is asking him out on a date without asking him directly. It's an amazing performance between these two.

I asked about it. Yeah. So, okay, the other moment. The other moment is when the three of them are walking down the street after they now know that somebody won the 96,000 at the store. And there's these white computer graphics that's happening. How did that happen?

So I originally wanted every musical number. I wanted the characters to express themselves in the language that they see the world in. So Vanessa sees the world in tapestry and colors. That's why when she runs at the end of her number, it's fabric that comes over. It's not tears. It's fabric. The weight of the fabric as she bursts through the thing. When. Later, when Corey, when Benny and Nina are walking on the side of a wall, like, that's how it feels for them. This is their spot. The fire escape is their spot. But what happens when you're in love and the future doesn't matter. The rules of the world don't matter. The world can turn upside down, and you can use it as a ballroom dance floor. So for the beginning of 96,000, this was sort of in the vein of Graffiti Pete, who was in that scene. And how do these guys express what they want? I always thought of doodles at first. So at first, we had this artist draw all over it as if they're sketches. So each of them have, like, comic book sketches around them. And it just became too much. It was too invasive into their performances. So instead we're like, what if it's in the language of graffiti art, but 3D in 3D space? And so we got a company to show us what that'd be. And so we. Our choreographer had choreographed stuff to be held and to drop because we thought it was gonna be drawings. But the moment we thought, okay, no, it's gonna be Graffiti. Graffiti Pete in this 3D space. That's where it really clicked. And it could be elegant. It didn't have to be, like, messy and all over the place with all different colors. It could. It could assist in their expression without feeling it was taking over the scene.

And there's A tiny bit of that with the red lines on the chain link fence. Yeah. When they're outside the basketball court.

Well, in that one it was more of when she draws it, it's almost like paper cutouts because he blows it and it sort of floats away. When he says there's no 9 train now, it blows away. To me, it was partly Benny's world where it's, he's always working with maps and things and putting pins on maps. And so it has that it's her world because her dad owns the driving company. So it's all paper and stuff. So it was just one of those things that again, every, we tried to make sure that every number was speaking the language of the person that was expressing that song.

Now this question, this is the last one about these little scenes. Okay. Now you, you are forewarning. You might think I'm nuts about this one, but. Okay, when they're in the, the hair salon and there's a scene where two women are sitting down and they kind of spread their legs and cross their legs, was that like sticking it to Sharon Stone or, I mean, am I just imagining this guy?

You're imagining all of that. It was more of an homage to. There's a lot of salon numbers in musicals, so we got to do some nods to some of the classics out there. So.

Okay.

Yeah.

Oh, here I thought it was some deep meaning Sharon Stone kind of thing. Okay.

No, no, we have a lot of deep meaning in a lot of things, but that's not one of them.

One thing I'm taking away is you cannot not see one of your movies just once, because how would you. There's, it's very deep. There's a lot of things to.

Yeah, I mean, I, I, that's what I hope for. I think that's one of the things that, that's how I get more residuals, actually, because people have to watch it. No, it's just a financial choice.

At least you're honest.

No, no, no. Actually we spend, this is our life, you know, we, we spend years on two hours of your time. And you are taking you leaving your family or you're bringing your family, you're sharing them in this experience and we want to give you every moment of that. I think it makes, the challenge of a cinema is that it puts the onus on the storyteller to be better. And I'm down for that challenge. I may not be better, but I'm going to try my darn ass off to be better. And we're going to try to make. Take that space and utilize it for something good and not something frivolous. By the way, I love frivolous movies, and I am down for that. But I think there's something you. Can you bond or you understand people in two ways. Either you go through trauma with them, and from then on, you have their back, or you go through the best party of your night, of your life with them one night, and from then on, they're your best friend and you have their back. And some people choose to do the trauma version of that, and that's great, and that's fine, and that's effective. And there are movies that. But for me, I want to have the greatest party of my life with people that I've never met, so I get to know them, and I want to make those things. So I guess that's why Joy is so much in my work. And I hope people want that over and over again. Because then guess what? You want to then eat that food. You want to listen to more of that music. You ask your Asian friend, where's that performance from? How does that get that? You ask your Latino friend, oh, what's that dance style? You ask your Latina friend, can we go dancing sometime? It goes from this, like, story on in. In this theater to something that you want to do in your real life. And imagine when we can do all that together. That is real powerful right there.

You mentioned Joy just now. So are we ever going to see an action movie or a dark movie from John M. True. John Wick? You know, John.

Yeah, maybe I'm not scared to go there. I just have to be in the right headspace. And we've lived a lot of years where life isn't the easiest. And by the way, my stuff isn't just naive Joy. My stuff is Joy getting through the darkness and coming out. I don't know how to live differently. Like, life is too hard. So, like, why don't we accept that it is hard and messy and confusing and contradictory, and there's ups and they're down, but in the end of the day, we're living. The alternative is not living. And we have this amazing gift in front of us. And when you're living, you affect people, or you can help somebody or they can help you, or you're creating. That's why I think creating is like the most joyful thing, because it's literally you're. You're taking everything that is your. The world is inputting into you, and you get to now contribute. So in a way you're. You're adding to the algorithm of life, and I just think that that's very hopeful and very beautiful that we all have the power to do.

I. I know we're at an hour and seven minutes, and I know your time is valuable. I got like two or three more questions. I'm expecting your PR person to interrupt at any second saying, excuse me, guy, but your time is over.

Which I didn't, I didn't give him this link, guys, okay?

We spent 15 minutes talking about our youth, so that doesn't count towards this. Okay? We've arrived at the remarkable tablet moment. As you I hope know, the Remarkable tablet company sponsors the Remarkable People podcast. The remarkable tablet enables you to focus on. Because you can't check email, you can't check social media, you can't check websites. It helps you focus. So in every episode, I ask the guests, how do you do your best and deepest and focused thinking?

How do I do my best is deepest thinking? Walks, for sure. I have about five acres where I'm living right now, and so I will walk. But a lot of the time it's not like orchestrated walks, it's moments. I can't do it where I'm like, okay, I'm spending two hours to think. Actually driving. When I actually went places back in the day before COVID driving, I would drive back to San Francisco. And when I drove back to San Francisco, that, that five and a half, six hour drive, I always came out of it with five ideas. Four of them would be. And one of them would be great. But if I didn't make that drive, I didn't have any ideas. So I, I love actually, I love doing that actually a lot.

What kind of car does John M. Chu drive?

Tesla, of course.

You drive a Tesla? Yeah.

I gotta have the biggest screen. No, I. I only got a Tesla about a year ago. Before that, I had a Range Rover Sport.

So la.

So la. I know I'm not proud of my car choices, but I am proud of my Tesla because it just feels like not a car.

Well, at least you didn't say you had a G Wagon.

I did not have a G wagon. No. I'm not a car guy. I wish I was more of a car guy, but I'm just not. I just need a car to get to where I need and that can have space to put in C stands and cameras and load things and now enough room for car seats.

Do you, like, carry a red with you or.

No, I use my Sony A1, which I love.

You have a Sony A1. I mean, obviously that's only a few.

Months old, so I don't just have an A1.

Oh, my.

Let me see what I got here.

I got.

I got my A1.

All right.

Which is my baby right now. Yeah, my FX3. Yeah, but really, I have the FX3 because of the handle, because that's how I shoot stuff. Right. I have an A7s above the camera, above the. The screen. I'm not using it for this because I don't have a power thing for it. So it would have died in a little. I have a Leica Q over there, I have an A9. Over there.

I have an A9.

I love my A9. You have the A9 II or the A9?

I got the first one. And I have. Not that you. If you ever want to borrow it, because I never use it. I have one of those 600 millimeter, 2.8 prime. It's a humongous lens. It comes with a suitcase. My God, I feel so Sports Illustrated when I use it.

Yeah, I don't go that long.

So. Last question for you is, young people are listening to this. Hopefully they are. And they say, oh, man, I want to be in the movie business. What's your advice?

I say, don't say you want to be in the movie business. Say you want to be in the storytelling business. Because the storytelling business, movie business, who knows what's going to happen with the movies. Movies is a. As a medium, story is a discipline. And how you tell your story, once you have a story, what medium is it going to be told in? Is sort of the new way of creating story. And usually that's the better way. So if you have a great story, it could be a podcast, it could be a YouTube video that you just make on your own. It could be a big feature film, it could be a television series. It could be so many things. So think story first. And by the way, directing may not be your cup of tea. I think people don't really have a lot of experience directing or know what directing feels like. So the idea, the romantic idea of a director sounds great, but actually it's. There's a lot to it. You gotta. You gotta. You gotta be used to taking some bullets. And by the way, maybe sound, maybe you tell best stories by recording sound and being a sound mixer or sound. And that's a great, amazing place to be. Or maybe music is the place. Scoring is the place that you're the best storyteller at. It is not less than a director. It is not less than every crew. If you watch in the Heights, you can take any element of that. And that takes a master storyteller to be using that in that movie. Each person is carrying so much weight to tell the story for it to work all together. And so I guess for anybody out there trying to be a movie maker, think story first, medium second. And be open. Keep your antennas up to figure out what medium is it that you're the best storyteller at. You may be an author more than you are a screenplay writer, and that's okay. But you got to be open to understanding that otherwise you could get caught and you're categorizing yourself before you even know what the job is.

I've been podcasting for two years. I think my podcast is the best work I've ever done in my career. It's also maybe the most unappreciated of my work in my career, but it's the best work of my career. And, oh, I have to reciprocate because you told me what it's like to work with Lin Manuel Miranda. I have to tell you what it's like working for Steve Jobs.

Please do.

So every thing you've read and seen and heard about Steve Jobs being abrasive and difficult and just mean spirited, it's all true. All of that is true. And he would. He would drive in the carpool lane by himself and he wouldn't register his new Mercedes because he thought license plates ruined the aesthetics of a car. So he would just flip it every six months because you can go that long without registration. And I'll tell you one illustrative story about Steve Jobs. So one day I'm in my cubicle and I'm working, and he shows up with this guy that I've never met. And he asked me what I thought of this company. And the company's name was Nowhere Knowledge Software. So it was an educational software company. And I proceeded to kind of say, you know, it's a mediocre company with mediocre products. Drill and practice. Two plus two equals four. It's not really strategic for us or important for us. Steve, he says to me, oh, I want you to meet the CEO of Nowhere. So that's what it was like. You have to prove yourself every day. And you know what? You know what, John? If I had said, it's insanely great software. It's so beautiful, so wonderful, I might have been fired on the spot because I would not have passed the Steve Jobs IQ test.

That is amazing. That Is amazing.

That's what it was like.

Wow. I can't. I can't even imagine. That would be. Yeah, that'd be insane to. To watch. To have a front row seat to all the things that happen.

That's pretty amazing post, Steve. Stress disorders.

Yeah.

John, you've spent so much time. Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure. And I'm gonna go eat a chef shoes. I'm gonna go say hi to your mom and dad. Are they. Are they literally still working there?

They're literally there. 51 years. 52 years in January. It's crazy. My brother's there now and. And be sure to text me when you go so they can take care of you.

I'll take a selfie.

Yeah, please do. Or I'll fly down. We'll do it together. That'll be fun. You tell me when you're there. I'll make a trip. That'd be a dream come true.

That would be utterly fantastic.

All right.

All right. So thank you so much. You've been so kind and generous with your time. And I have to tell you, I just loved Crazy Rich Asians. And the line where Eleanor says, go on to Corinthians. I'll catch up. Oh, my God. Oh, my God, what a great line.

So I know Michelle. Michelle Yeoh can deliver anything. It's so good. Thank you, guys. I'm so glad you're doing the best work of your life. What an amazing. That's so inspirational to know, you know.

Thank you.

It's great.

Thank you. And. And now, you know, I. I'm going to tell people I have Jane Goodall and John M. Chu. What else is left?

Perfect. Let's do that.

I'll pitch that to Lynn. Man, Miranda, Jane Goodall, and John Chu. You either want to be on it or not. I mean, exactly, exactly, exactly. Lin Manuel Miranda, if you're out there and you're listening to this podcast, I'm begging you, come on this podcast. I mean, John M. Chu, Jane Goodall, Lin Manuel Miranda, my life would be complete. Anyway, I'm Guy Kawasaki.

This is remarkable, people.

I hope you enjoyed this episode with John M. Chu. Let me tell you a little backstory about this episode. Peg Fitzpatrick reached out to John and asked him if he would be on my podcast. Thank you, God. John knew who I was. He claimed he was a fan, and he instantly made a decision to do it. Thank you, Peg, for making that happen. Thank you, Jeff, for the sound design. If you haven't watched Crazy Rich Asians and in the Heights. Just trust me and go watch those two movies. They are utterly fantastic. Until next time, be safe. Get vaccinated. If you're not vaccinated, Even if you are vaccinated, wear a mask. This pandemic ain't over until it's over. A halo and aloha. This is remarkable, people.