Latanya Mapp Frett: The Impact of Everyday Feminists

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I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is Remarkable People. We're on a mission to make you remarkable. Helping me in this episode is Latonya Mapp Fret. Latonya is the President and CEO of the Global Fund for Women, a board member of oxfam, a board member of Management Sciences for Health, and she teaches at Columbia University. Her extensive experience in global health organizations, human rights, and international development make her a force to be reckoned with. She was the Executive Director of Planned Parenthood Global, where she quadrupled the size of the program in four years. Prior to that, she spent six years as a human rights officer for UNICEF and nine years with usaid. Latanya holds a BA in Government and politics, a master's degree in Public policy, and a law degree from the University of Maryland. Go Terrapins. Her new book is called the Everyday the Key to Sustainable Social Impact Driving Movements We Need Now More Than Ever. It is both a history of everyday feminists and a tactical and practical guide to sustainable social impact. So get ready to be inspired by the one and only Latonya Mapp Fret Evangelist for Everyday Feminists. I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is Remarkable People. Here we go. There are two places in your book that somewhat surprised me and made me curious. So the first place is that when you were young and you were in South Africa, you thought you would want to spend the rest of your life there.

Yeah.

And I want to know why.

Well, first of all, for many who know Cape Town, there is just a natural beauty in the place and that beauty surprised me. Growing up on the east coast. It's kind of more like the west coast now that I live in San Francisco, but for me the beauty and the city. But more importantly was just what was going on in the country. And I guess now, in hindsight, I can think back, but what I really was feeling in my bones was social change happening right in front of me. Being a part of that, being a part of some kind of change that in my opinion, be, like, fundamental in the way that I saw the world. And so that's made me feel that way. At the time, I didn't know it, and plus, I had a little boyfriend. I was thinking, this is just where I want to live. I want to get married and settle down here and never go back to the US and so some of it was a rejection of what I found growing up in the United States. But most of it was the beauty of the place, the beauty of the people and the social activism that was happening at the time when I was there.

And what year was this?

So you gotta remember, this had to be around 1993, 1994, because it was right as the first democratic elections actually were happening. And it was when Nelson Mandela was voted in as president. And so the spirit of the place at the time was ending apartheid. And of course, you had opposition to that, but there had been a very thoughtful process, if you remember, and the release of Nelson Mandela, the dialogue in the country, and also this feeling of reconciliation and wanting everyone to come together. Today, of course, if you go to South Africa, some of it works, some of it didn't. There's still a lot of division. But at the time, I think there was really an interest from people, everyday people in their communities, to try to make it work, to try to come together after such atrocities, after such a long time of division and hate and divide. So that spirit, you could feel it in the country as those elections took place.

This is why I'm asking the question, but do you feel like South Africa then is better than America now in terms of social activism and fixing broken systems?

I am worried a little bit about the United States now. I'm worried more about what we don't say in this country. At the time in South Africa, there was a lot of interest in actually having a dialogue to speak the pain, to speak the truth of experiences. I feel Sometimes in the U.S. especially now, I'm not even sure I thought about it that much then, but now I do feel like that there is this sort of undercurrent where people are so politically correct sometimes that we don't actually have real conversations. And at that time, and I'm comparing it again to the time when apartheid was ending in South Africa. And I spent those years there, almost five years altogether in Southern Africa. But it was a time when people recognized the pain that had happened and was willing to have a conversation about it. Today, I feel like if looking at we have George Floyd happen, a lot of people make statements and then things go right back to normal. And I feel like I'm seeing that more and more. And that troubles me. Guy.

I learned that Reverend Al Sharpton first attended a funeral of this nature, George Floyd kind of funeral in 1990.

Okay.

That's 33 years ago.

Yes. Yeah.

I hesitate to ask you this question, but is racism in America simply intractable? Do we just come to the conclusion that we are a racist country? Let's just face facts.

That's a very, very good point. I think we're going to have to if we're going to try to get beyond it. So I don't think it's attractable. But I do think the end of your statement is got to be where we start acknowledging that it is a very racist country. I mean, it was a built on a racist structure system. It was built on the premise that people from different racial backgrounds were different. One was inferior and the other was superior. These are things that are a reality. And it was centuries of that. So to pretend like we are not a racist society will not help us. We talk about a lot, particularly at Global Fund for Women, about this acknowledgement, allowing voices to help us get rid of the trauma, this intergenerational trauma that happens, the memory of what has happened to your parents, your grandparents, and what part you played in that as you continue to live right now in this society. So for me, it's certainly a racist society. That goes without question Whether that's intractable and we can't get to a better place. I would disagree. But I do think us not having that conversation and admitting to that fact in the history of our country is going to make things very slow. And as you see, it is very.

Slow in a sense. You're saying if we don't deal with our past, we're never going to get past this. And there's this whole movement about there's racism in math books and we got to stop teaching critical race theory. And you know, not to be punny, but there are places in America that are trying to whitewash our history. I don't see how that's going to help.

I write a little bit about critical race theory and it is very insane in some ways. So the definition of insanity I hear over and over again is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result. We are never going to be able to get at many of these systemic issues if we don't try our best to acknowledge where we come from. America has a very particular racist history. So does South Africa. And it's just different than ours. And the history of enslaved people in this country, where they are today. And much of it being very intentional is something that we have to deal with. And I, you know, and I think we can acknowledge that in other ways. It makes us. In this critical race theory argument. I look at it and I'm just like, this is ridiculous. We finally have an opportunity to tell children in a very, very specific way the history of our country, and we want to reject that. And what would the reason be? And how do you help children by doing that? So it makes me sort of angry when I think about this. I know what I wasn't taught when I was in school, what I didn't know, and thank God I had other ways of getting information. But how much that would have just helped me recognize who I am. The beauty of knowing Africa and not just it being an embarrassment, and all the poverty porn that was happening during the years that I was growing up when we talked about the place that I'm from and my people are originally from. So I, you know, I reject it. I reject that critical race theory is anything that will hurt children. I actually think that telling our children the truth as it is acceptable at certain ages is the most important thing we can do for them in trying to solve our social issues.

So one thing I need to clarify for people listening is what does feminism mean today?

And I'll start by saying I'm from the group, just to put it out there, who wants to reclaim feminism for those of us that were not from a particular sect of society? We're not older, rich, white women. And I totally know I'm a feminist to the core, not because of the word, but because of what I've seen in every strong feminist woman I've ever seen. And that is the ability to not give up. That's the ability to not just acknowledge that we're equal, that the genders are equal, but that genders are also different in special ways. And that for me, feminism is the equality of the genders, of course, but it is also how you show up to. To support other women, how you show up to support your community, and how you show up to change what's not right in society. That, for me, is the definition of feminism. And by the way, you don't have to be a woman to be a feminist guy.

I consider myself a feminist.

Good.

I'm an old Asian guy, though.

So you should reclaim the word as well. I just don't want Diane to be so elusive. And for people to think that it's a specific thing that you have to do to be a feminist. It is believing that we're all equal. It is believing that you can do something about the inequality that we see. And it is acknowledging these women who every day, all day, get up and try to make that difference real.

Last week, we had Gretchen Carlson on our podcast, and she's the person who took down Roger Ailes at Fox. Let's just say that was an interesting interview, too.

That's wonderful. And I struggled with naming this book the Everyday Feminist because there was this concern from many camps that I might put people off by saying the word feminist, that I might not attract an audience that would otherwise read about social impact because I use the word feminism. But I had to struggle with that a little because I do want people to talk about social change. I want people to talk about the change that's possible without feeling like they have to belong to a certain group at the same time. I think my experiences in life have shown me that acknowledging the people who are doing this work is crucial if we're going to get to the end game, which is what we all want. Right.

Just to support your decision, I would say that if someone is not going to read the book because of the word feminism, that person is least likely to be someone who believes in equality anyway. So it's not going to read your book anyway. So you just lost nothing. And you made it very clear to the people who are open to your book what the book is about. So, basically, tough shit. What else can I say?

I like you, guy.

I don't think there's any title under which old white men are gonna flock to the bookstore. So I have to say one of my favorite parts of your book was where you explained the feminist logic model. So I want you to explain that model. And then I'm gonna ask you if you've ever met a man who had a similar model.

Of course I have. I mean, and I can start with my partner right now, who was a single father for many years and raised his children in San Francisco on his own with this incredibly expensive city and in many ways, incredibly racist city. And certainly, with all that's going on in the world, I have met and have had the privilege to meet many Men around the world who fit the model. But let me just talk about the model a little bit. I won't go into a lecture here. But the theory is just that women do have a different way in many instances, of looking at the world. And so the thinking is if you support women, if you support community, grassroots women in their efforts to lift up their community, then you actually see a certain kind of use for their economics, you see a certain kind of use educationally and how they drive change. And so if we are able to support these women, then actually what you see happening is that the change that they make is first with themselves and then it's with their family. So they will send both their girls and their boys to school as a priority. And then what happens is the community benefits from that work that that person, that that woman is doing. And then the community starts developing. And, and once the community starts developing, so does the country that that woman and her community reside in. And so the ripple effect is the logic behind it. The alternate side is if you support groups that are not focused on women, or you don't support the everyday feminists or women that are doing work in their community, then that actual support does not go to things like education and feeding the hungry and to other social needs that are happening. And if that doesn't happen, then you can't develop the community and you can't develop the country. And so the logic model shows that once women have resources, they use those resources to better their societies. They use those resources to better their, their needs, immediate, but also their future needs. And that's where the model comes from.

What I loved about the model was that a feminist takes care of their family first.

Right, Right.

And once you take care of your family with all this follow on goodness, then you can go out and build bigger and bigger circles, but family first.

Yeah.

And with the exception of your partner, I don't know a lot of men who think like that. But okay.

We've been using it for years in a development world to talk about why it's important. We used to have these like, should we have programs for women or shouldn't just all programs have women in them? You know, the mainstreaming argument. I'm sure many of my colleagues will tell you we need both, because we've tried just to mainstream all programs to include women and often it just doesn't happen. Still, women's issues get left behind. Still, women are not given the power to decide what they use their resources on. Which, as you said, we're going to start at Home. And home then builds into the community, and the community builds into the state that we're living in. And so all of those are going to be very important. We have to specifically look for and support women's programs. And we have to make sure that women are included in all aspects of the work and programming that we do. So it's not an either or, it's an and in order for us to get to where we. Where we want to go.

So using this logic model, something very tactical and practical immediately kicks in, which to my surprise, I even learned that the Black Panthers addressed, which is child care. So let's talk about child care now, because you can't exactly change the world if your kids don't have child care.

And you can't expect people to show up if they don't have child care. And I don't mean just to work, I mean to anything. I talk about when I was in Kenya, and this was one of my first trips overseas, and I met Innocent, who owned a hair salon. I don't talk in the book about her children, but she also had places where people could have their kids stay when they came into the salon, which wasn't just for having your hair done. It was actually where the community came to meet about issues that were happening in the region. And so weird in some ways that we don't think about this, that women actually are doing a lot of the community mobilizing and organizing. I mean, look at all the major movements, but yet we don't think about how they take care of their children, which are going to be wanting to, if not the most important thing for them way up there on that list. And our assumption is that they'll just figure it out. And I think that's a mistake. And it's a cultural thing in some ways. And so we expect women to show up, which we often do, we always do. Then we gonna have to help them out. And helping out with childcare is going to be just one of the basic common sense things that we can do to support.

Let me go down a little paranoid hole here. Okay? So I totally understand the importance of child care vis a vis this kind of activism. And as I said, I was surprised that even the Black Panthers had child care. Yeah, but if I'm, let's just say someone of the opposite perspective, I'm not saying this discussion is going to be conscious or even really happening, but there's a line of thought that, oh my God, if we provide more social services for childcare for poor people, it's going to free them up to become activists and they're going to come after us. So we better not have child care. Am I being paranoid here?

Yeah, just a little. But I love it. I love the thought that if we provide child care, maybe we'll have more socially conscious folks. Maybe people will put down guns. Maybe people will start feeding the homeless when they walk by them. Actually, the idea is amazing, Guy. And I hadn't thought about it in that way, but I guess if you're on the other side of that, I'd have to ask why you wouldn't want more of that in your society, why you wouldn't want more people to lift up so that we all live together a little better. Are we not tired of the school murders, the police beatings, and hey, if childcare can do that? Which actually I'm convinced now your remarks that we could have a better society if we just did better with childcare. Then I asked the question, why wouldn't you want that?

Now we're going even deeper into a hole, which is there is a school of thought that white males are so threatened by the changing racial composition of America that this is their last gasp desperation half court shot. In order to preserve the America we want run by white people, we got to go to the mat right now. So is it the last gas desperation and the trend is not your friend, or is this how it's always going to be? So are we at the cusp of major change or this is just, you know, business as usual?

I think we're living through major change, Guy, and that's hard for all of us, not just the white male leadership patriarchal society that we've grown to accept in this country. But I do think it's changing. And I worry about some of this rhetoric because of the collateral damage that comes with resisting change. You know, maybe it sounds Pollyannish. I really wish that those folks that you're talking about could think about what another type of world looks like, what a world that's focused on equality and justice could bring. And you think about sort of the gross amounts of money that these corporations and rich billionaires are making. And then I'm looking at sort of the struggle that we're having at Global Fund for Women to get food to grass to people who were just in the earthquake in Syria. Right? So, you know, these sort of gross things that are, are not connecting in our society. And so this change that you're talking about, it actually could have us living in a better world, hanging on to something that's actually only been great for you is stupid because now we're talking about a world where it's great for everybody. Not bad for you, but great for everybody. So when I hear these things, I get pretty annoyed because the work that I do means I have to focus on women in their communities who don't have things and try to get those things to them. And you're sitting on top of billions of dollars in running societies to meet in a hole. And you've had your chance. So let's move on now and do something that looks a little better. And at the end of the book, you may have seen a quote from one of my colleagues in Egypt. It was like, maybe we just give this a try, you know, have women lead and see where we go. And I pretty much am convinced that it would just be a better world for everyone, including white males.

There is no doubt in my mind. We also interviewed Tom Peters a few weeks ago and he basically said the world would be a better place if women ran all the companies, which I completely agree with. We've had 2,000 years of failure. Why don't we give women a chance?

Yeah. And I was looking at some of the comments that were made when the Prime Minister of New Zealand stepped down. She was incredible through the pandemic and now it's time for her to take another journey. And it just reminded me again, it's like, and she's stepping down. So she's done all that she's done while being criticized for doing it. And she's just been an amazing leader through an incredibly difficult time. And she's like, okay, now it's time for someone else to take over and pass the baton so I can take care of myself and my family. And I do believe that's the kind of leadership you get from women. And I'm even trying to teach my son how to be a similar. Like literally I'm like emulating women leaders and saying to my son, this is how you have to lead. This is how you have to be in society. I believe men will be partners and allies as women lead, but also learn a lot in the process.

We're like having so many deja vu moments here. So a few weeks ago I also interviewed Ginny Rometti. She was the first female CEO of IBM. And the first question I asked her was, with Jacinda's resignation is a real litmus test for people because some people will say what you said. Right? So this is a woman totally self aware, did so much good, and now realizes she's not in a position to be as good or as effective. And so she's taking time off. What self awareness. But there are also going to be primarily men who say, see, women can't stick it out. We have Donald Trump working till he's in his 80s. But Jacinda, she has to bag it at 45. See, women are not fit for leadership. And I'm telling you, there is a school of thought like that going around that this proves that women shouldn't be leaders.

Well, I mean, they said the same thing when she came to the general assembly at the UN with her baby. And I believe she even nursed her baby in a space close to the room where they were. And there's always going to be detractors like that. But let's be serious. She actually served while she was a nursing mother and now she has a toddler and I believe more than one child. And so she is going to have to make some decisions and prioritize one over the other. And it goes back to the logic model, right? Yes. She's got to take care of her children and her family and that's going to be better for all of us. And I don't for one minute think that we won't see her again. I am very sure that she will be on the, if not her national stage, on the world stage, at some point, helping to serve us again, because this is the characteristic of feminism. And so the same love and spirit that she's using to make this decision as they get older, as her children get older, I can guarantee you, and we'll come back to this again, guy, that we're going to see her in this space again and hopefully serving in even a more profound way to our world community.

I hope you're right. Just change the US Constitution and make it so that you don't have to be born here to be president. Although then Elon Musk is going to run, which is a whole nother can of worms.

Yeah, that might be tricky, right? Yeah.

You use the word might be very loosely, but yeah. Okay, back to your book. We're just going all over the map here.

That's okay. It's all in the spot. Spirit of the everyday feminist, for sure. We can't be. We can't just be focused on one thing. Right. We have got to span our strengths so that we cover a lot of topics and issues at once. So I'm all in.

Do you think that everyday feminists are born or made?

That's a great question. I haven't had before guy. And, you know, initially I'm going to say they're born that way. But. But I, of course, like, you have lived in and know cultures where it can certainly be stamped out of you. Where I've lived in cultures where being a girl, being born a girl is less than. And so you might actually try to reject some of your feminist innate power. And so while I think that you're born this way, and again, it doesn't just have to be a girl, I think culture can stamp it out of you fairly quickly when you're born. And. And we still have societies around the world where the preference is for boys. We still have societies around the world where women can't do things that men can do. And so while I'd like to believe we're born that way, I understand that there may be problems in trying to practice your everyday feminist spirit.

But would you also say that anybody can be made or make herself into a feminist movement leader because of the circumstances?

Yeah, and we talk about this a lot at Global Fund for Women because we work with movements and most of our money goes towards social movements, gender justice movements. And so we see that a lot of times what makes people stand up is not some pedigree, it's not some education they got, but usually it's some tragedy is something that has happened in their life. It's something that happened right in front of them in their communities. And maybe even just being tired, you know, goddamn. Just tired of seeing the injustice. And so that is what usually whips women into action. And they start mobilizing, they start organizing. So in many ways, you are kind of made into an everyday feminist because you just can't take it anymore. The injustice is too much. You have to do something.

I think the world's greatest organization name is this organization in Texas called Mothers Against Greg Abbott. I mean. Oh, my God, that is a freaking brilliant name. Oh, my God. Anyway, I digress. Again.

I don't know it, but. Okay, that sounds interesting. I'll look it up.

That's a whole different meaning to. To maga, let's just say. So now, what does it take to sustain a movement?

Yeah, it's a great question. And we've been looking at it a lot, so you know that it requires resources and it requires support in a way that is not just about how much money you are able to raise as a social movement, but it is about how much advocacy you can lift up. It is about the leadership, how you can sustain the leadership. To the point about Jacinta Making sure you don't burn people out. It is making sure that you're able to reach certain influencers, whether that's in politics or in arts or in other ways. So it is a set of very, very important structures that have to happen before the movement declines. And when some people hear the word decline, they think that's a bad thing. But actually, social movements don't necessarily have to, you know, last a lifetime. Gosh, wouldn't it be great if we could see the end of racism in a lifetime? Right, yeah, that would be perfect. But it does mean that if these injustices don't go away, that you continue to have the resources, the support, the mobilization efforts, the community drive to be able to sustain it until you get to a point that the movement itself has succeeded. And then decline is fine. Sometimes decline happens because maybe a law has passed. I try to argue in the book, let's not stop at a law, let's actually move it to the end. I talked about my colleague in Pakistan where I used to live with child marriage. It's like we have tons of laws now on child marriage, but still in many places in the world, including some in the United States, where you still have people, you know, girls under 18 being married off. We can't just wait for law and think we're successful. Movements have to thrive and continue until you actually see the thing happen that you're trying to get at.

I was stunned to learn that there's something like 16 or 19 states that have not outlawed marriage under 16 or something. There's some unbelievable number. And my head explodes sometimes.

Well, what my makes my head explode guy is that often these, you know, we as a community, as a US Community will look at other places and be like, oh, that's just horrible. And then we have like some of the same things or worse going on in our own country. And I do believe that we should support. You know, I come from a global background. I do international work as a career. But I also think we have to start in our communities and seek out injustice where we are, as well as then connecting to ally movements in other parts of the world. But you bringing up that point about young girls here in the United States, one of the most tragic stories I've ever heard in child trafficking was right here in Philadelphia, a girl who had been trafficked up and down the east coast of the United States. And she is American, born here. And so I think sometimes it's so easy to be like, oh, that stuff is happening over there. You know, without actually acknowledging how it is happening in our own backyard.

That's why I began this interview asking you about South Africa.

Right?

Because I think if you ask most Americans, so, you know, where is it better to be a black person? America or South Africa? Today? Not so clear anymore.

Well, what's a better question I get sometimes guy is like, where was the best place you ever lived? And I, you know, I flipped between Nigeria and Mali, and people are always stunned.

And, you know, really, Nigeria and Mali.

I know because as a black woman, I have never, first of all, felt so accepted in my own skin, looked at not just being a black woman, but also for my intelligence, for my intellect, what I bring to a situation and a circumstance. And I believe that in many countries, especially in Africa, black people feel that every day because they're amongst the majority. Here in the United States, I never leave my skin. I'm always black. You know, when I walk in a room, you know, I was just watching because of Black History Month, there's lots of cool stuff on how we acknowledge that someone is the smartest black person. It never stops in this country. It is a part of your identity, of course, but it also is just something that people see first. And there are so many other identities in me.

Okay, we touched on this very briefly. But so how does a movement define.

Success on their own terms? And I have to say that because it's so unique to the movement itself, and social movements, especially gender justice movements, are very specific to issues that are happening in. In that community, in that country, or even sometimes in that region. And so you can't have outsiders now to the movement say that this is how you determine success. Success has probably been set up from the beginning. There could be a mother who is suffering from a loss of a child, and her goal is now to have policies that stop the thing, let's say gun control, which we've been wildly unsuccessful around, in most cases, states in this country. But it is to have some gun control laws in her community. So that's the level of success that she's looking for. And what we try to do is to not try to say to her, no, it's not the gun law that you want. It is the accountability from the government. And at the end, there's only. There was 1,000 murders last year, and this year it can only be 500. It really does have to be from within the community where that level of success is set. And our role and our goal and our role, especially in philanthropy, is to make sure that they have the resources to reach Their goal. It might be another social movement or gender justice movement that's working on another similar goal that you can also in allyship support. But you can't tell them what they should be seeking in a social movement. They should have to set that on their own terms.

Let's just say I'm a person listening to this and I've decided I'm all in. I'm going to be an everyday effeminate. How do you start?

You start by looking right in your community. I always ask people to start by supporting the movement that is the closest to you. And I don't mean just geographically, but to your heart, to the issues that concern you. All of us have gone through things in our life as we're growing up, things that make an issue of some type of social issue important to us. So everyday feminists get involved. We know them, right? They're the school PTA person who you're always like, gosh, you know, I can't believe you have a full day job and you're doing this and you're doing that. But do what you can and make time for that. And I think you'll start seeing your activism grow because you're involved, you're engaged in the community. And I think it's already in us. You know, there's so many of us doing that work. So I don't want us to think those listening, I hope, understand and value the work they do for their communities and. But it is getting past this personal me and working towards the collective. And that is the sort of thing that I often say that women bring innately. Because if you are concerned about your children and your children's children, you can't just be concerned about what happens to them. You have to be concerned about the world they live in. Climate justice is a brilliant example. All of the, not just feminist activists that are working on this, but the young feminist activists that are working on this because they do see a future and they want a better one for themselves, of course, but also for their kids and for their other kids. So for all the everyday feminists that are listening, there's not a checklist on how you do it. Just do it. Just do what feels important to you and do it not just for yourself and your family, but for the community you live in.

You've lived in 15 countries, you have very good data set. Do you think that people all over the world are more different or more similar?

Oh, God, definitely more similar than we think. I've never lived in Saudi Arabia, but I would say that my understanding of women in Saudi Arabia was that they were so different than me. Like, they're probably the most different. And even there, I found friendships in a community I've never lived in or even visited for any length of time, a country where I haven't found people who thought like I did, who I was interested in learning more and who was interested in learning more about me. And so I reject the notion that we're so different. I think there are certain human tenants, just like I talk about certain things that characterize the everyday feminists, without calling them that, that are very, very similar around the world.

Let's say that politicians are successful in suppressing the history of black people in America, whether it's CRT or Project 1619. What do you think the cost to society will be 10, 20 years down the road if we whitewash this part of our history?

I'm trying to think, who said this? And you probably know Guy more than I do, but often I remember hearing that if you don't know your history, you're doomed to repeat it. And for black people in the United States, that's a horrible thought if you think about our more recent history as enslaved people in this country. And so I am inclined to believe that if we don't talk about just when you think about the atrocity of it, if we don't talk about it, if we don't learn more about how we got to where we were, the capitalism, the sort of European superiority, all of the sort of fundamentalisms, then I think we will be doomed to continue to treat people unequally. And so, for me, it's crucial not just in the United States, but around the world, because it wasn't just a US Issue. We're talking all across the Americas. The transatlantic transportation all through Europe, Africa, have been affected by this structure. It's too big to just say it's black American history. Right. It's a much larger piece of world history that has to be focused on. Up next, on remarkable people. I don't think it has anything to do with the word woke. I think it has much more to do with this constant reminder of visibility. Who are we? Who are we as black people in this country? And then again, when we talk about women, as feminists, you know, who are we as women? So I think that invisibility breeds these conversations because we don't often get credit for who we are uniquely or specifically.

Want to know when there's a new episode of remarkable people. Simply text 831-609-0628. If you live in the US or Canada, don't miss upcoming shows. Take a moment to follow remarkable people in your app or podcast player. You're listening to remarkable people with Guy Kawasaki. What does the word woke mean to you?

I love the word woke that you're listening. Woke means you're listening. And I use that terminology with my own kids because, you know, I hear it being used in these colloquial ways of. It means you, you know what's going on, you know about the systemic injustices that are happening. You can't be frustrated, fooled about your history. All of that is woke. But for me, I also believe it primarily means that you're listening. And to listen and to hear sets us all up for conversations that we can have to change things. Listen. I don't know how, but there are.

A lot of politicians who use woke as if it's a bad thing and they want anti woke laws and anti woke woke regulations. So, you know, very simply, if it's so bad to be woke, what's the opposite? Asleep, unconscious. You're just a pure dumbass. Like what? What's wrong with being woke? Why do these people say it's such a bad thing?

Well, it's funny, and I may be wrong about this, but so many of these colloquialisms come out of the black community and they usually mean something much more intimate before they get into mainstream society. And it surprises me. Woke is a term that we in the black community value and hold dear. It's what we aspire to be. We don't want to be seen as not understanding what's really happening. So that is the opposite is that you're completely fucking clueless and that you're going on things without understanding. You have no understanding. You're a sheep. You're just a follower. And so for me, I didn't even hear all of these things about woke being such a bad term. But certainly in my community, it is the thing you aspire towards because the opposite means you're just following. You're not using your own mind. You're not even participating in the things I was saying about the everyday feminist, you know, where you have what you need. Just go do it for. For me, if you're not woke, then you are asleep.

I'm gonna give you an insight into my ego. I know you're not asking for this insight, but you're gonna get it nonetheless.

Your show, Guy.

So there are two things that make me really happy doing an interview. One is where a guest says, that's a great question. Nobody ever asked me that question before. Which you did already.

Okay.

And the second thing is, just out of the blue, you dropped the F bomb. So.

And I don't remember doing that guy.

You did. You did. I have proof. So I just want you to know, the first time anybody dropped an F bomb on my podcast was not one of these social media influencer, guru, thought leader, person. It was Margaret Atwood. Margaret Atwood dropped the first F bomb on the Remarkable People podcast. That alone made my career. But anyway, love it.

Love to be among the greats.

It's you and Margaret Atwood, baby. That's good company. You can't get much better. I'm gonna try to get Jane Goodall to drop the F bomb. That's my new goal in life.

Yeah.

I read an essay a while ago that a non black person should not use the word woke to describe themselves. It is a term that should be reserved for only black people. So I just. For my own personal edification, I don't want to trample upon black cultural norms and start telling people I'm woke, and they're looking at me like, guy, you cannot use that term about yourself. So you're the first black person I've interviewed since I read that. So you got to tell me, can I refer to myself as woke?

I have no idea. And I cannot, in any terms represent the entire black community and answer a question like that. So I will just say that so many of the terms we use, and this is how we started talking about feminism, is it takes on different meanings. And I am of the school, that you should embrace that but not forget where it comes from and remember the history of things. And a word like woke is not a charge word. It's not like the N word. Right. I can't even imagine why it would have to be relegated to one community. I do, though, think we have a problem, not just in this country, but especially in this country, of giving attribution to things where we got them from, what they mean, and acknowledging that the community that we get it from has value. So we do a lot of this stuff here in the US we take some words, and it's even funny things like, girl, hey, girl, you know what's happening, girl. And I grew up in a community where we did that. But it start becoming strange when I start hearing that from white women, right? So who never acknowledged they got it off some show that they were watching with black women. But I do think that it's not the word. Woke is, of course, a Great word. But it's about attribution. It's about respecting and valuing the community of what you imitate. It's about giving credit. And in so many ways, the black community, of course, as you know, does not get credit. And of course, we're not just talking about words and colloquialisms, but we're also talking about changes that happen really important parts of our history in our community that does not get often respected. Some of the whole terms about. I know we're really going in, aren't we, guy? But gentrification, you know, much of that is not just about changing a community. It's about the disrespect for the communities that built those places. I don't think it has anything to do with the word woke. I think it has much more to do with this constant reminder of visibility. Who are we? Who are we as black people in this country? And then again, when we talk about women as feminists, you know, who are we as women? So I think that invisibility breeds these conversations because we don't often get credit for who we are, uniquely or specifically.

Okay, so bottom line, do I have your permission to use the word woke?

I cannot give you permission because I don't know who to ask in that case. But I use the word woke. So if you use it with me, I'm okay with that.

Okay, that's good enough for me. That's good enough for me. All right, let's say that Joe Biden creates a new organization, and he needs a secretary of getting shit together, and he asked you to take the job. So, A, would you take the job? And B, what would you do as the secretary of getting shit done?

I love that. I would absolutely accept his call to get shit done. And one of the first things I would do, just in classic style, would ask all of my feminist mentors, what should I focus on? Right now, we have issues of the day. I'm struck by the growing numbers, of course, of the earthquake. And I don't know, maybe I'm being petty, but it just feels like that's a great moment. That's a lot of souls out there. And I was watching the game last night, but it seems like we're more focused on some of these other things that are happening in the world, almost in a way to put a bomb on so that we don't have to address these issues. And so for me, in asking, what are some of the most important things that are happening in the world that we could focus on is where I would start my get shit done list. I know that inequalities, justice, framing are all things that we talk a lot about. But I honestly believe that if we're trying to fix economic, not just social, but economic situations in our world, if we're trying to bring us closer together, alleviate more hunger and pain, and have our children grow up in a world that's guaranteed and not ruined, then there's so much shit that needs to get done. And where to start, really, is the question that I'd have to use. And if the president allowed me to start with just anything, then I think I'd go back to my claim that I would just resource the work that's already being done by incredible activists around the world. No need to create the wheel when you're getting shit done. There's lots of shit getting done. It's like, maybe we have to lean in a little bit more and help them do it better.

I could make the case that, and maybe I do this as well, is that people tend to focus on the negative.

Right.

And so there is a lot of good shit being done too, but we're constantly bombarded with only the bad stuff.

Absolutely. My daughter just told me about a word, toxic positivity. She thinks I have this issue. I'm like, oh God, even positivity is turning bad. You know.

Listen, that's a high quality problem. Problem, okay? I mean, there are a lot worse problems than that.

She's 17. That's her problem. With me right now, I'm toxically positive. But absolutely 150% agree with you, guy, that we do focus a lot on the negative. And even when we focus on the negative, it is like a spin, like the media spin and social media particularly, so that we don't ever get to solutions. There's this quick running of all the negative stuff and then we move on. And I am of that school where, and this is what this book does, right? To spotlight all these incredible women and what they did. My life story is much bigger than this book, but it really was an attempt to try to point out these spaces in my life where these women were, like, teaching me lessons that I now remember and hopefully can implement to do some work. But it is those positive stories that I have, not the tragic ones, because there are those too. But those don't move me to action. It is these positive interactions that probably came from some negative thing, but that actually has driven me to actually help to do better, to do more, to just show up in a different way. And so for me, I Do think if we're going to focus on the negative, then we should focus on solutions to the negative stuff, not just get like a swipe up to the next negative story and the next one to the next one and never really have the conversation about what we can do differently. So for me, toxic positivity is pretty okay.

You just tell your daughter that real life is not like Tinder.

Will do.

It's more like eharmony. But okay. Anyway, last question for you is, as you look back, yes, I consider you remarkable. Your career, what you've accomplished. And I just want you to know that we are inundated with people who want to be on this podcast, and we turn down almost all of them. So we consider you remarkable. So just put your humility aside for a second and if you can, look back and say, these are the factors that help me become remarkable or help me accomplish what I've accomplished. So how did you do all this?

That's such a sweet thing to say, Guy. I figure sometimes you can't chart your own course, and sometimes you just have to follow. And I feel like doing that led me to these countries, working with the incredible people that I have. And I know that what makes me remarkable is having had these experiences around the world, and now I get to bring them home to my own community. And I hope that the people that I have touched on this journey, as remarkable as they are, also feel that they share that same for me. I hope they're telling stories like the Everyday Feminist as well, about me. So it is the blessing to be able to meet people from around the world, and in particular, feminist women, who are just doing badass everywhere and making our world just a little bit better than it is right now. That makes it remarkable and makes me feel remarkable when I get to talk to people like you, Guy.

Listen, this has been absolutely super. Thank you so much. I give you the stage one more time. So just tell people why they should buy your book.

Because if we don't tell each other stories about what get us to our passion, what get us to doing what is right in the world, then we'll never have that inspiration. We'll always have negativity. And the everyday feminist really is just a way to offer folks who know that women are doing incredible things. Some stories mine and others to help us give. Give us that energy to keep going. Because I bet there's male or female or other genders. There are so many things in the book that will resonate with you. So get a copy of the Everyday Feminist and let's talk. Let's tell our stories together.

And that's a wrap for this episode of Remarkable People. We had the privilege of speaking with Latonya Mapp Fret, a true leader in the global health and human rights communities. We hope you enjoyed learning about her incredible journey, the impact she's made on the world, and how you can make an impact on the world, too. Remember, Latonya's new book is called the Everyday Feminist. It serves as a reminder that we all have the power to drive positive change and make sustainable impact. We hope her words have inspired you to take action in your own communities. We all have the power to make a difference, just like Latonya Mapp Fret. I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People. My thanks to the Remarkable People team who also make a difference. That's Jeff C, Peg Fitzpatrick, Shannon Hernandez, Luis Magana, Alexis Nishimura, and last but never least, Madison Nesmer. Until next time, mahalo and aloha. This is Remarkable People.