Luvvie Ajayi Jones: Writer. Speaker. Truth teller. And Professional Troublemaker.

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I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is remarkable people. This episode's remarkable guest is Lovey Ajayi. She is an author, speaker, podcaster, and Nigerian wild woman. She moved to America from Nigeria at the age of nine. She graduated from the University of Illinois where she started as a pre med, but gave that up when she got a D in chemistry. Her first book was a New York Times bestseller. I'm judging the Do Better Manual. She just released her second book, Professional Troublemaker. The the Fear Fighter Manual. Here are two quotes from that if thinking highly of myself and being self affirming is a fault, I want to be the walls of the Grand Canyon. Second quote. Black trauma is never given space to heal because we have to make sure the white people who hurt us don't feel too bad about it. Even as victims, we're told to care about the feelings of those who harm us. Her TED Talk, getting Comfortable with Being Uncomfortable has been watched over 2.4 million times in Professional Troublemaker. She also quotes the best insult that I have ever if I want to kill myself, I would climb to your level of stupidity and jump to your iq. Apparently Nigerians are very good at insults and that is something to admire. Guy, I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is remarkable people. Buckle up for a riotous episode of Remarkable People. And here is Lovey Ajayi.

I've been a huge fan of yours for like over a decade, so this is. This is a full circle moment for me.

You say that to all the podcasters.

There's actually a picture of me and you from. We met very briefly like a second at. It was a. It was a Focus 100 or south by Southwest long time ago.

Now you know that I did not.

Write Rich Dad, Poor dad, right?

This is Kawasaki.

Listen, I know that is not you.

First question is, do you know who Dorothy Parker and Fran Leibowitz are?

I know who Fran Leibowitz is, yes. I don't know who Dorothy Parker is.

You could make the case that Fran Leibowitz is the new Dorothy Parker. I think you are the new Fran Leibowitz.

Whoa.

That you are the young, black Fran Leibowitz. Because I just love the sarcasm and acerbic nature of your writing. So I'll give you a Dorothy Parker quote so you can, you know, understand where she's coming from. So cool. If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people who gave it to.

Okay. Yes.

And so then Fran Leibowitz says, the opposite of talking isn't listening. The opposite of talking is waiting. And then Lovey says, if thinking highly of myself and being self affirming is a fault, I want to be the walls of the Grand Canyon. Oh, my God, what a great quote. Thank you, Kyle. You can say you heard it here first, and then I'm just gonna fanboy here for a while. I'm gonna read you another of your quotes. This is more serious. Okay, but take a dagger and stab it. So the quote is, black trauma is never given space to heal because we have to make sure the white people who hurt us don't feel too bad about it. Even as victims, we're told to care about the feel of those who harm us. What a great quote. I mean, do you, like, sit around figuring out how can you be that insightful and decisive and, like, does that just come naturally?

I don't sit around thinking about random things to say, but when I am. But when I'm thinking through what I want to say, I am hoping that I say it in a way that connects with people, that stays with them, and I never know whatever that thing is. So I always love hearing what. What part of my writing somebody connects with, because it's always different. So hearing these quotes right back to me and knowing this is what stuck with you, I'm like, this is meaningful because I keep track and be like, okay, so that connected with somebody that.

Made a difference, made a huge difference. Maybe you could start off by explaining the nature of podcasting is I sometimes have to ask you questions that I know the answer to. I'm sorry, but the people who are listening don't know the answer. All right, so tell us about the path from Nigeria to America.

Yes. So I was born and raised in Nigeria, and when I was nine, we moved to the United States. My mom wanted my sister to start college here and not there. Fish out of water. Complete culture shock. Because coming from Nigeria, everybody looks like me. My name was never different. It didn't feel different to anybody. The way I spoke wasn't different. So being nine, the last thing you want to do is be different from the rest of the people around you. So when I started school, which I didn't realize I was doing, I thought we were actually coming to the United States on vacation because we'd been here before on vacation. Nobody tells the baby. Okay. Nobody consults with the baby of the family. So when we showed up and I was enrolled in school, I was like, oh, my God, we're staying. And yeah, we were staying. And I basically did what kids do. I adapted. I learned how to lose most of my accent by just listening to my fellow classmates. And by high school, most of my Nigerian accent was gone. But being a child of Nigeria that I am, I was still bringing jollof rice to school for lunch because I tried bringing sandwiches a couple of times. It didn't go well for me. Okay? Like, I was like, I'm still hungry, so tomorrow I'm going to come back to my jollof rice. And that's what I did. So high school happened. I fit in. I had a great group of friends. But one of the things that I actually brought with me on the journey from Nigeria was my dream to be a doctor. And for me, it was significant because I was nerdy. I wanted to help the world, and I thought being a doctor was the best way to do it. A lot of people can relate to the fact that if you have parents who were immigrants, a lot of times they think you should be a doctor, a lawyer, or an architect.

Same goes with Asians.

Just FYI, we are basically cousins in that I have a lot of friends who are Asian who, like, basically we're all the same. I'm like, absolutely. So when I started college, my major was psychology, Pre Medicine, because Dr. And I took Chemistry 101 and Guy. I got the first D of my academic career, the first and last D. Because I'm actually not that great at science. And I really understood in that moment when I got the D that I would be the worst doctor ever. I don't even like hospitals. So I instantly was like, let's drop this dream. And you know how oftentimes people tell you never quit? No, no. Some failures points to the fact that you should quit.

I have a similar story, but I quit even faster. So I went to law school. I went to law school for two weeks and I just couldn't stand it, so I quit. You didn't tell your mom right till graduation that you weren't pre med?

Yes.

I told my father right away. And to my utter amazement, I thought he was going to say, 15 generations of Kawasaki worked to get you into law school, and you quit after two weeks. Suicide is, you know, the honorable thing for you to do. But he said to me, it's not that big a deal as long as you do something with your life by your mid-20s, it's okay. So, like, I wanted to say to him, so why did you tell me to go to law school then? I mean, it was okay, but anyway, I love that.

Yeah, because I didn't tell my mom until graduation. Because I also was like, hey, I graduated four years. You're welcome. You never gotten a phone call? You never got a phone call about me getting in trouble in college? I figured the amount of trouble I could get into was minimal.

Yeah, well. And, you know, she did just spring it upon you. Welcome to America.

Right? It was payback. It was my version of payback.

That's good.

It was never good payback. But it's really funny because that semester, as I was dropping psychology, as I was dropping pre med, I kept psych. But I started blogging. My friends peer pressured me into blogging. Back then it was called web blogging, as you know. So I had a blog on Zynga, and I think it was called, like, Consider this the Letter I Never wrote. It was really emo, as in Comic Sans. So it was terrible. It was all about my undergrad career and the exams I was failing in the roommate beefs I had. But it was the first time I really did writing outside the classroom, writing that was not being graded. And I fell in love with it. When I graduated, I actually deleted that college blog. So I was like, I don't have material from undergrad anymore. You know what? I'm going to now talk about less about me and more about the world. So I started awesomelylovey.com, which I still have, and decided to talk about the world. Race, feminism, tv, movies, shenanigans, and random good times. Anything that I felt like talking about. And it took on a life of its own. And I had to admit that I was a writer. It took me a bit. It took me about four or five years to admit that this thing that I was doing was more than a hobby. I want. I started winning awards for it. More people that I knew started reading it. And, yeah, you fast forward a whole bunch of other things happened.

Next thing, Oprah's calling you.

Oh, my God. I'm a 16 year overnight success. That's what I call myself. I am a 16 year overnight success.

Thank God that you got a D in chemistry, because the world would not be as good a place if you were just a doctor.

Right?

Well, now all the doctors are going to get pissed off with me saying that.

Here's the thing, though. There's value. There's so much value in every work, including being doctors. Which is why I understand that it was not where I was supposed to go. I would be the worst doctor ever.

I would be the worst lawyer. So we have something in common.

See, there we are. We're failed doctor, failed lawyer.

Before we get off Nigeria, I have to ask you something.

Yeah.

I'm gonna read you something from your book. As you can tell, I really read your book.

Okay. I love it.

This is not something like, I looked you up in Wikipedia and I'm gonna try to blow through my way of interviewing. Now, this not a quote of what you said, but the fact that you put it in your book is powerful enough. This is the best insult I have ever heard in my life.

Okay?

And the insult is, if I want to kill myself, I would climb to your level of stupidity and jump to your iq. Now, I'm gonna put that on my grave marker.

Okay?

But I just want to know, I hope this isn't racist, but how did Nigerians become so good at insulting people?

Nigerians are the most chill, deficient group of world dwellers you will ever meet. And we are so kind, but we have also the sharpest tongues ever. Because as a culture, we actually just insult each other as a love language. It is just part of the way we communicate. We will see each other and be like, you're such a goat. We will call you an animal as a way to say, hi, Nigerians. We like to laugh. We like to find the absurdity in the world. And Yoruba, which is the specific tribe that I'm a part of, is very metaphorical and very descriptive. Just the way the language is, the way that people use words, it lends itself to insulting people in really interesting ways. So, yes, that insult, when I first saw it, I saw it on somebody. I don't remember where I saw it, but it was somebody Nigerian that said it. And I was like, my God, we are excellent at the game of lambastan people. We are excellent at it.

How do I become honorary Nigerian? What's it take, Guy?

The first thing we have to do is get you some Nigerian jollof.

Okay?

Have you ever had jollof rice?

Not that I know.

Okay, Guy, what city are you based in?

Santa Cruz.

Santa Cruz Bay Area.

Yeah. San Francisco Bay area. Yeah.

Okay. I can probably find you a Nigerian restaurant that can deliver you some jollof rice. So jollof rice is the rice of the country. So, you know, I think most cultures, besides American culture, most cultures have a rice that is their standard rice.

Yep.

Ours is jollof rice. It is tomato based. It's similar to Spanish rice, but it's a bit more spicy, got a little bit more kick to is at birthdays, weddings, random Tuesdays. It is just our dish of choice. So the first thing we gotta get you is to taste some jollof rice, Right. And then from there, you gotta get a Nigerian friend. And Guy, you officially have my friend. Me?

You're the.

You're the only Nigerian I know. Well, there was the prince that I sent 20 million bucks to help him get his money out. But besides him, I only know you from Nigeria.

Well, God, now you have a Nigerian friend. And then the third thing. I am so sorry you missed it by a year and a half. Yeah, I might have invited you to my Nigerian wedding. You got to attend one Nigerian wedding.

But if I went to your wedding now, I would be right on time, according to Nigerian punctuality. No, this is true.

This is. Listen, so I got married September 2019. And Guy, let me tell you about Nigerian weddings. They are. Have you ever been to an Indian wedding?

No.

Oh, my God. God, you need some more Indians and Nigerians in your life because I'm very similar. That's another cross cultural overlap.

Yeah, we're so similar.

Our weddings are carnivals. They are three day affairs. And you will eat, drink, and dance your whole life away. You gotta go to at least one. You gotta go to at least one.

Your wedding is still going on then, right?

Don't worry, my vow renewal will be a turn up also. So give me about five, 10 years, we'll have a vow renewal and you can come to that.

Do it at south by Southwest. Kill two birds in school.

Oh, my God. Kill two birds in one skull.

I want you to tell me about your grandmother because, well, half your book is about your grandmother. So tell me about your grandmother.

Oh, my grandmother. So what's funny is I got the idea to write this book realizing that I wanted to write a book all about fear, fighting and how when I decided to make the choice to live life boldly, my life changed. When I really got a concrete idea of what this book was about. I was on a plane headed to Paris for a conference and the line came in my head. I come from a long line of professional troublemakers, especially my grandmother, Fumilayo Faloi. In that moment I was like, that's what this book is about. She's at the core of this book. My grandmother was a Nigerian elder stateswoman who took no shit, who loved everybody fiercely with the same energy she would insult you with, who would give you the shirt off her back if you needed it, who would give you her last dollar if it meant you were happy. And my grandmother was for me, a testament of what it looked like to live life without apology, to go through struggles and strive and thrive in spite of them, and to build a legacy that infused the love, the faith, the joy, and come out on the other end and be deeply loved and revered for it. So my grandmother is the professional troublemaker. I didn't realize I was studying when I was growing up. And who I am today is somebody who is proud to carry on her legacy. And. And this book is coming out 10 years after she passed, so it's the perfect tribute.

So it's in your DNA to be a professional troublemaker. You can't help it.

Basically, I can't help it. It came to be honest.

Why don't you explain what it means to be a professional troublemaker?

Yes. I like to title my books things that make people go. You sure? My first book was called I'm judging you. And I remember people being like, you're going to call a book I'm judging you? And I'm like, yes, because we're all judging each other, right? Like we might as well just be clear about what we're judging each other on. And we're typically judging each other on what's not okay. Like what we look like, what we weigh, who we worship or not worship.

Yeah.

So when I decided professional Troublemakers, the name of this book is because I wanted people to also be like, woo. Troublemaker. That sounds bad. It's not actually. To be a professional troublemaker is to be somebody who is committed to disrupting the status quo for the greater good. It is to commit yourself to being somebody who is in any room. And when you are in that room, you are personally responsible for what's happening in the room. You know what happens when we actually commit to the community well being? We will make sure that we are using our power to do good, to speak up for people who might not have the voice that we have or the access or the power or the money or the privilege that we have. To be a professional troublemaker is to exist in this world and say it Is my job to leave this world better than I found it. And a lot of times it's going to come from me doing something that's going to make me uncomfortable or something that's going to be scary. But it's important. Because if we are disrupting what is happening, that's not okay. It means we're challenging injustice. It means we are challenging something unfair that's happening. It means we're fighting for something greater. And I think that's important.

And how do you push past the fear and doubt?

Yeah, that's big. I think one, by acknowledging it. One of the things that we do as humans is we other each other very well. We are very quick to talk about how we're different. But one thing that's really universal, one thing that we all have, is the fear of anything. It might be small one day, it might be big another day. But I realized that fear exists for us for a reason. But we use that reason for everything. So the same fear that keeps us from not putting our hand in fire will use that same thing to stop us from challenging an idea that comes up in a meeting we're in. That's not thoughtful, that will not serve us. When we realize, okay, I am going to be afraid. Even when it's small moments, recognizing that's okay, then saying, okay, now we'll move forward regardless. For me, I think fearlessness is knowing that you will not do less because of your fear that you will be afraid of the small and the big moments. But you insist that it will not stop you from doing what you have to do.

I love that. Now. I love your concept of too muchness. So what's the benefits of too muchness?

Yeah, we've all been called to something. You're being too loud, you're too aggressive, or you're too passionate, or you're too sensitive. And I realized that when somebody says we're too something, it means they want us to be less than. It's easier to say, you're too much than to say, I want you to be less than what you are right now. Nobody will say, I want you to be less. They just make it say, I want you're too much. And we've all faced it in different ways. We've all had moments when people criticize us in that way. They think they're doing us a favor. They think it is somehow helping us. But oftentimes I think that we are too is usually our superpower. For me, when I was young, I was told I was too chatty I talk too much. That thing that I was too well, I now get paid a lot of money as a professional speaker, as a thought leader. So had I let people convince me that I talked too much, the practice of using my words that come out of my mouth to touch people and pass on information, whether small or big, I would have squelched it. I would have been like, you know what? Do less, be less. So I want us to understand that in this world that is asking us all to be as the same as possible, that is asking us not to be different, that thing that makes you too different, that thing that makes somebody uncomfortable about you, is often a superpower that if wielded responsibly and well, you can change the world with it or you can change the room that you're in. I'm not even asking everyone to change the world, change the room.

But when and where and how do you draw the line?

It depends. You have to figure out what your role is in any room that you're in. And it's not always you being louder than anybody else. It's not always you doing something that feels physically disruptive. Right. Sometimes it's in having a meeting before the meeting where you say, are we aligned on this? Will you back me up if I challenge this? How you decide the when and the why and the how. I think it's sometimes in the moments. So if you are sitting in the meeting and an idea does pop up, you have to decide on what your power is. I think oftentimes we leave our power behind or we forget we have it with us. So we think, oh, it's somebody else's job to call that out. If it's a bad idea, I'll be quiet because somebody else is going to call that. Well, if that person's not there that day or that person just doesn't feel like being bothered, it's your job. I think we need to understand that power that we're constantly walking in rooms in. Because power is dynamic. It shifts depending on any room that we're in. I often speak in keynote at conferences and I always know the 50 minutes that I have the microphone, I am the most powerful person in the room. When I say thank you and I get off the stage, that shifts the power in the room. Now is whoever is the next one holding the mic. But while I have the mic, I understand that my power in that moment is to speak for somebody who couldn't say something in that meeting, is to make sure that somebody who's listening, who didn't feel empowered to speak up because they felt like they would be punished for it. Hears their voice through mine. Identifying your power in the room and knowing when you don't have as much power is really important because you can wield it depending on that room. So some rooms, you might be the intern, you might be the person who just started, who no one really is. Like, we can't really give them credence. Other rooms, you might be the person running the meeting. So if you are the person running the meeting, you understanding, you know what? Maybe the way I'm going to use my power right now is to give it to the intern and say, what do you think? Let me give you room to speak. As this whole room is making their voice heard. We haven't heard from you. So it always depends. In the small moments, in the big moments, if we haven't practiced those small moments, we really don't have the practice to do it when it's calling for us to do it really loudly or really big.

Would you say that humility is overrated?

Yes and no. I think humility, the way people describe humility, is overrated, absolutely. When humility feels like you bending yourself backwards to not own how amazing you are, that's overrated. But I think humility is being clear about who you are, being clear about how amazing you are, but also not being afraid to give credit to those who allowed you to be that amazing. So I can be humble while telling you I'm an amazing writer and a speaker, But I know that I was able to do this because of my grandmother, because of her legacy, because of my mother's work in bringing me to the US and any sacrifices she's made because of the teachers who insisted on pouring into me and who allowed me to sharpen my pen. So I'm humble in that I know that my gifts are not just purely because of my work, but I would not be humble by diminishing my gifts and by saying, I am less than and reducing that.

Closely related to humility is the imposter syndrome. So have you gotten over that, Guy?

Imposter syndrome shifts, man. It shifts. I think, where is it now? Where is it now? Ooh, that's good. So my imposter syndrome before looked like me being like, am I? Do I belong in the room? Because I'll find myself in rooms. I mentioned to you how I met you 10 years ago, very briefly at a conference, and me being like, oh, my God, how did I get into a room where Guy Kawasaki's breathing the same Air like, what? That's crazy, right? I was like, oh, my God.

Oh, my God, let me get my boots. Oh, my God.

And as my career shifts, as my career levels up, as I find myself in even more rooms and with more people that I'm just like, whoa, I'm in this room. Imposter syndrome. Now, it doesn't look like, how did I get here? Because I know the work that it took for me to get here. Now it becomes, what work must I do to stay here. Now, imposter syndrome is being like, do I have to constantly innovate? Do I have to constantly overprove myself to feel like I can stay in the room? So it's a constant work in progress and acknowledging that and saying, you know, I can say that out loud. I can say, I have no problem being like, I am feeling a piece of fear here. I am a bit nervous about the fact that I'm in this rarefied air, but also understanding that it is the constant work of knowing that the work that I've done is enough. Right, to keep me here. The person, the name that I've built for myself is enough. The voice that I have is enough. And I don't necessarily have to constantly strive.

Don't you think you could make the case that if you are someone who never has any thoughts of imposter syndrome, that you probably are an imposter?

Yes. Yes, absolutely. I find that imposter syndrome, the people who say I never have it are the people who aren't constantly looking to be better because they already think they reached the peak of wherever they must go to. And I. I think everyone should be a forever student. I don't ever call myself an expert in anything, because if I call myself an expert, that means I'm saying I have no more to learn, right? So people who don't have any imposter syndrome are people who, like, I have nothing more to learn. I am already the best thing since sliced bread. And that is another extra piece of arrogance that I don't think I ever want to get to. I always want to think I'm dope. I'm. I always want to think I'm amazing. But to say I am the best I will ever get to means I have stopped growing as a person. And that sounds like I am dying. Like, willingly dying.

What is it like to be young, black, female and Christian in America today?

Oh, we young black female Christians. Smart, caring about the world. It is deeply frustrating. Frustrating is an understatement. Because to be a young black woman In America who believes in God, who still and cares and finds that. What I pick out of the Christian is the fact that Christ laid himself on the line for other people's well being. That piece is really important and that piece is what I think a lot of people are missing when we talk about this racist structure that we live in, this country that is deeply unjust to people who are marginalized, that part drives me nuts. This country that purports itself, that puts in God We Trust on the coin, but does not put godlike policies forward, it's deeply frustrating because we're living in a world of all this dichotomy, all this hypocrisy. And for me, I'm like, are we all talking about the same God? Are we all talking about the same concept of love your neighbor? There's the golden rule and there's a platinum rule. Do unto others as you want to be done unto you and then do unto others as they would like for you to do for them is really significant. And we don't do it. So yeah. And that's part why I use my voice. I was like, I hope when people encounter my work, whether it's in my book, whether it's in my podcast, whether it's just out in social, I hope people find things that compel them that I said that makes them think, you're right, I can do something different, something better. Because for Christians to live in this country and be okay with kids in cages, to be okay with us saying people can't marry the people they love simply because they are of different degrees, gender identity, for us to say it's okay for people to go without food when some people are there's like they'll throw out food just because I don't understand how we can be okay in a world where there are kids starving and where people have no homes to go to at night. So yeah.

What kind of systematized racism do you still experience?

Oh, I have been a public speaker for 10 years. Professionally, I have a TED talk that has 5 million views. I've spoken at some of the world's most innovative companies and I still have to fight to get my fee. I will show up, change hearts and minds in 50 minutes. And I still have to over prove why I charged my large five figure fee. For me, I get to see white men who don't have the credentials I have, who don't have the experience I have, who without question get what they charge all the time, every time, who are offering nothing of value or Very little value who are saying they have no imposter syndrome because they've never had to face somebody doubting who they are simply because they look like that. Right?

Yeah.

So my racism changes. The racism that we encounter changes even. And it is still always based on the same thing, is that when I show up as who I am, this woman that I am, whether I am in a blazer or whether I'm in a sweatshirt and a baseball cap, people have all these ideas of who I am and what I bring to the table and my intelligence and the way I can speak. And people still be shocked that I can speak well when I'm like, I have a college degree, I can speak two languages, I've been reading since I was three. So for me, racism, the structural racism, shows up as I am amazing at what I do and I still have to over prove that I am worth.

What I charge with all of this. What is your advice to a young black woman in America right now?

Be dope anyway, even when people don't expect it or believe it, what we can do, what I would tell any young black girl and why I always want to show up in the way I show up, because I hope I am a model for somebody who sees me show up exactly as who I am. I write in the same voice, whether I am speaking at a Fortune 50 company or at a nonprofit in Chicago. I'm speaking the same way. I'm probably dressing the same way. Sometimes I'll go to a conference that's business casual with wearing Jordan ones just to prove a point. That excellence can show up whether it's in the suit or in the sweatpants. So I want a young black girl who is listening to this or who needs some type of pump to know that if she didn't get the permission before to be herself to be her full dope, excellent self, I hope I am giving her permission to be that because I am proof that you can be that and still you can thrive. You won't just succeed, but thrive. Stand in it.

You had another statement that just totally intrigued me. And I want you to explain this for my listener, which is why do you say that black women are the moral center of the universe?

I think Black women are the moral center of the universe because we are constantly thinking about the well being of the world because we know what it's like to be the ones whose heads are stepped on. So we don't want somebody else to feel like that. So our actions and how we show up is with the intention of I Want to make sure that I am not stepping on somebody else's head. And when that happens, when that happens, it means you're constantly thinking about how to make sure everybody's okay. We are the moral center of the universe because how we think we nurture deeply, we know what it's like to constantly be battled. And we want to make sure that it happens less for those who look like us. But here's the thing is when black women win, everybody else wins. When black women are at the helm, everybody else wins. When we think about even what happened in Georgia, right, when everyone's, oh my gosh, we gotta save democracy. Black women put it on their backs and say, you know what? We will do everything we can to make sure we can get this thing happening. But when that thing happened, it was for the betterment of everybody. When the work that we do is usually for the betterment of not just us, but everybody. So that's why I think we're the moral center. If the world listens to us more, it'd be better for it and it has better food.

I would make the case that Stacey Abrams may have saved America.

Yes, literally, Stacey Abrams and the work of black women like Latasha Brown inse ufford. It's been like a voltron of black women who were like, we're gonna do this work and we helped save America. And everyone kept on hashtagging believe black women or trust black women. But you know how you trust black women? You move out of our way and you stop sabotage. Move out of our way and listen to us. If you just do what we say do, things will be so much better.

Oh my God, you are priceless. Okay, now there is one part of your book and your background that I just don't understand what happened? And this is of course, the Tevin Campbell experience.

Yes.

So what the hell was that about? Like, why did it go so off the rails? What am I missing? I'm just maybe a 66 year old Asian American, so I don't understand this, but can you explain that whole thing to me? And now with two years of hindsight, maybe you can interpret what the lessons are there.

There's a chapter in this book called fail loudly. And that was the biggest public fail I've ever had. And God, let me tell you, even today, I still can't fully explain to you why it blew up so much. I don't know what about it made it so loud. Because I have said stronger things. I have said stronger things and pissed off way more people. Before.

But wait, maybe we should explain it because people may not know what the hell we're talking to.

So, yeah, like, Aretha Franklin died and everyone was talking about who should do her tributes. And somebody mentioned Tevin. And I love Tevin Campbell. I actually love his music. And I was just like, that's a random name to tie it to Aretha Franklin. Like, under what rock did you pull that name from? Is what I said. It went to shit. I ended up trending on Twitter for an hour the day after. Mind you, it wasn't even. It wasn't even immediate. And people were calling me anti black, anti black American. People were saying that I didn't know anything about music and culture. And I was stunned into silence for, like, it. I mean, like, people tried to destroy my career over this one tweet. Literally. Somebody actually went on Twitter and Facebook and said, like, I want to destroy her career. And I was like, holy shit. And one thing I learned in that moment that I talk about in the book is about how what was different was not necessarily what I said. What was different was how people would see me. And I think it also comes down to this fact that people really want to humble black women in a big way. When you stop being the underdog, you become the target. Back in the day when I was just the person behind a computer screen who still had a full time job, who still had the struggling blog, who only had 10,000 followers, that thing wouldn't have made a difference. Whatever I said didn't make a difference. What people saw was the lovey, the platform, the brand. And a lot of times people do want to humble black women and say, I don't like how far you've gone. Let's get you back into your place. So I feel like a lot of that happened, but I think it was also a signal for me to understand Lovey. You're not just Lovey from Chicago and Nigeria anymore. You are an entity now. You're like an empire. You're no longer David, you're Goliath. And when you're Goliath, people wanna throw the rocks at you. So what you do is understand that if you're seeing yourself as David because you're being humble, if you're seeing yourself as David, you also have to recognize that at one point you are Goliath. Your words do reach more people. Your words do more, do have more power and impact. And understanding that I needed to wield my platform even more responsibly was the gifts that I got from it.

And Two years later, do you think it has made any difference to the arc of your life?

It has.

You did that. It has, absolutely. Because of the. Because of what you learned, but not because of the damage that it did to you.

Right. It definitely. It. Like, it took air out my sails for about a year. Like, it really did. It took me a minute to get my footing back on it, to be able to be like, okay, I stopped being afraid of my own voice. I think one of the gifts was, funny enough, it brought more followers to me, which was weird Firestorm. People were like, who's this lovey girl people are talking about? And then people being like, oh, my God, I love her. So it got more people following me. That was one. But two, I think it also kind of every experience that we have, it's hard to kind of, like, remove what the domino effect is to our lives. It really is. Because that moment and how it sat me down had me thinking through who I wanted to show up as in the world, what I wanted my career to look like, what I needed to put into place for the fact that I am bigger than I thought I was, how I needed to even build my team different got me thinking about and asking questions that I wasn't asking myself before. And I think those questions also now helped because I started going to therapy even more. And my therapist is quoted throughout my book, because in that process, she was, like, walking me through what it meant that this thing happened. How was I going to grow from it? And that was a gift that shows up in this book. My therapist, who actually just passed away two weeks ago, and I think about that moment, and I think about what he was asking of me, and I think about the growth that he was asking of me. Who I was then could not handle my success now because maybe I don't think I was equipped for it. I had to go through that firestorm to get me the equipment that can push me past it, which leads me.

To my next question. So you came up with a list of three things to ask yourself before you ask other people or say things. And I think that is a great list. So what are those three things to ask yourself before you do something?

So it is important for us to have a checklist that makes us less impulsive, especially when it's time to say hard things. Because a lot of times people are asking like, okay, so what makes you decide to do it? How do I make sure I'm not talking out the side of my mouth? And I think having a checklist and quantifying our decisions is usually the best thing. So one is, do you mean it? This thing that you are saying, is this actually something you believe or are you saying it because you just feel like being a contrarian in the moment, can you defend it? If somebody challenges you on this thing that you say, do you have the receipts to prove that it's right or that where your opinion is coming from, can you basically stand in this thing that you're saying? And then can you say it thoughtfully or with love? Because the way you provide a message actually does matter. So it might be a valid message, but if you're saying it while it's being hateful, it won't land. So is there a way that you can say this in the way that is most thoughtful possible? If the answer is yes to all three, say it. And then whatever happens happens. You deal with it. But I think that checklist is at least really good to affirm you in those moments when you do want to speak up but you're not sure whether.

You should, you discuss what it means and how to be a good taker or recipient of stuff.

Yes.

So explain to us, how do you be a good take taker?

Yes, indeed. I think a lot of times we are very proud to identify ourselves as generous people who give, give, give. But there is something about us that also makes it hard to take. When you are constantly given, you don't feel like you can take because in that moment you're not being generous. You think I'm the one that's supposed to be given, not receiving it. But I think about, and I'm that person too, and I had to unlearn that. It's something I'm constantly unlearning. To be a good taker is to be able to say a gracious thank you. It's to. Because a lot of us are not even good at receiving compliments. Like, somebody will compliment our shirt and we'll be like, oh, this whole thing, I've had it for a long time. As opposed to being like, thank you, I'm glad you like it. So let alone when it's time to receive a gift or something that feels big that you might not give yourself, you'll be like, no, no, no, I don't want. No, no, you don't have to do that. No, receive it with. With gratitude. And I think one thing we should understand is when we talk about love, love is not just about being generous. Love is also about receiving somebody else's generosity. Let other people feel the way you feel when you're being generous, by taking and by receiving what they're offering you help. Help. Energy, time, platform, money. Sometimes it's okay to receive because I think that's a part. That's the second part of love. If I am not receiving what you're giving me, how am I allowing you to show me love? So we have to think about it in those ways.

Another thing that I found, I say surprising or unusual is putting two words together, toxic and positivity. So how can positivity ever be toxic?

Absolutely. To, hey, too much of anything is not good. Correct. That's a rule that we all know is fact. Too much of anything is not good. You can be. You can love vegetables. You eat nothing but vegetables all day. You're not going to be balanced. Where's your fiber? You love candy. Great. You eat all that sugar. What's up? Diabetes. Okay. Too much good positivity is not good. What does that mean? When you walk through the world thinking you should exist in nothing but good vibes and good feelings. Because what happens is you weaponize your negativity. You weaponize. Whenever you're feeling bad, you make yourself feel bad for feeling bad. You know, it's like being in the house in this quarantine. I was telling you guys, like, we're the privileged ones. We're the ones who are in house. We don't feel immediate and acute threats. We know where our next meal is coming from. We're not worried about somebody coming into our house. We feel safe, were the privileged ones. So sometimes, even in this. Yesterday, I was talking about how I've hit a pandemic wall. It's the wall where after 10 months of quarantining, of life, not looking anything like it did before, you being exhausted. But to say it out loud, somebody was like, well, it's okay. We'll be fine. But the moment of negative emotion is okay. Toxic positivity is the idea that anytime we voice or feel something that is not positive and flowery and good times.

Unicorns and pixie dust.

Exactly. Unicorns and pixie dust and rainbows. We're somehow being ungrateful for our lives, for the things that we have. No, negative emotions are necessary. They're natural. When you feel them, you might. You might work on not getting lost in it, but the goal is not to be like, oh, I have no right to feel this way. No, you have a right to feel what you feel. So when it becomes toxic, positivity is when you are not assuming and living in real life for the Sake of bypassing an emotion. Some people call it spiritual bypassing. Right. It's the idea that you're not supposed to feel anything bad. You should just be grateful. So then you never deal with the emotions at all. You just surface them. You just gloss them over. So how you make sure positivity doesn't get toxic. You allow yourself to feel the negativity. You acknowledge it, and then you let it pass. You allow somebody who's talking to you and saying, hey, I'm feeling this way. You acknowledge their feeling. You don't dismiss it and say, no, you're fine. You should be okay. You make sure that you're not the person who is constantly reducing people to good vibes.

And my last question for you is, how do you do your best and deepest thinking?

That's good. How do I do my best and deepest thinking with a pen and paper? I am a visual learner in all ways, in that if I have ideas or thoughts and I don't put them down on paper, I feel fog. It's basically why I am a writer, because putting my words on paper is cathartic. So my best thinking is in quiet. Me and a pen and a notebook. And I have many notebooks. I have a bit of a stationary problem. I need to stop buying them. But I won't. I already know I won't. And I sit there just jotting down my ideas. Sometimes it's bullet lists, sometimes it is fully formed paragraphs, Sometimes it is some of both. But, yeah, I like writing down stuff and thinking through stuff, creating graphs and whatnot.

This is obviously called the Remarkable People podcast.

Yes.

And it is sponsored by a company called the Remarkable Tablet Company. The Remarkable Tablet is this tablet that. That has a stylus pencil that feels just like a pencil, not like an iPad. Apple pen.

Okay.

And every guest gets one. So we're sending you one.

Awesome.

And you will never have to find a notebook again. And I hope you love it. I hope you love it.

I love that. I'm going to definitely try that out and I'll send you a note.

Guy, this has been just remarkable, shall I say, and delightful. And I'm gonna go look for that rice and I'm gonna come to your wedding. Or wedding. No, that would imply you're getting remarried. I'm gonna come to your vow renewal. And one of my goals in life is to become as close as I can to becoming an honorary Nigerian. That is, you gotta have goals in life. And I just want to be able to insult people at that level. But with Kindness. With constructiveness and with kindness. Yes, we do. With kindness.

But we can absolutely lambast people. No. God, thank you so much for having me. I never take it for granted when people want to share space with me and when people want me to share my lessons and the things I've learned in this world. And I told you earlier, I have been a student of yours from afar for about a decade, and the remarkable work that you've done is something that I know leads the work that I do. So in case you haven't heard it recently, just know you were one of the people who I used to, like, read about and see their work. And I'd be like, so dope. I'm gonna find that picture that you and I took when we briefly met at a conference. I can't know which. I can't remember which one you had on a Canva T shirt. Oh, at this thing. I'm gonna find it. I'm gonna tweet it to you when I find it. And this feels like such a full circle moment to be affirmed by you. You're an OG in tech guy. As a tech geek, as a person who was at the intersection of all these different platforms when you were like, come on my podcast. I was like, say less. When do you need me? I will be there.

I love you. You flatter me too much. I don't have imposter syndrome. I deserve that.

Look at you. Hell yeah. Hell, yeah. You must receive that compliment. You must receive.

That's right. Yes, I was. That was all.

Totally do me. Okay.

Word.

Word. So much appreciated. This is a highlight.

I hope you enjoyed listening to Lovey as much as I enjoyed conducting the interview. She is truly a remarkable and one of a kind, funny woman. This is Guy Kawasaki and the Remarkable People podcast. I'd like to thank Alyssa Cammerhort page for helping me reconnect with Lovey and getting her on the podcast. My thanks also to Jeff C. And pig Fitzpatrick, who, 52 times a year, help me make a remarkable podcast. I will keep you posted about getting to a Nigerian wedding, but for Nigerian weddings to occur, at least in the traditional manner, we all need to wear masks, avoid crowds, wash our hands, and get vaccinated. Please remember to do all those things. Mahalo and aloha. This is remarkable people.