Mauro Guillén: Why You Should Think Healthspan Not Lifespan

Here's something remarkable and not in a good way. Disengaged employees cost US companies almost $1.9 trillion a year. That's a lot of zeros. Why? Because when teams lack the right skills, productivity declines, turnover increases, and strategies stagnate. But it doesn't have to be that way. At Project Management Institute, home of the PMP and globally recognized certifications, your people can learn to collaborate, deliver on time, and actually get things the cost of not upskilling way higher than the investment. Project Management Institute. Find the answers@pmi.org.

I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is remarkable people, we're on a mission to make you remarkable. Helping me in this episode is Mauro Guillen. He is currently the Dean of the University of Cambridge Business School. He's an esteemed keynote speaker, a frequently engaged consultant, and a recipient of prestigious awards including Guggenheim and Fulbright Fellowships. His insights and commentary are highly sought after by major media outlets including npr, Bloomberg, and cnn. In addition to these roles, he is an accomplished author. Among his influential books that have garnered worldwide recognition is 2030 how today's biggest Trends Will Collide and Reshape the Future of Everything. His most recent literary endeavor, the Perennials, the Megatrends. Creating a post generational society challenges the conventions such as Boomers, Gen X, Millennials, and Gen Z. He proposes that discarding these dated classifications is key to unlocking our collective potential. I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is remarkable people. I'm thrilled and honored to have on my podcast Maro Guillen. With no further ado, let's begin this thought provoking discussion.

The title of your book is Just Great. Maybe. Thank you Gina Pell. But two of you have coined this term that's going to be used.

Yeah. It may also be that you would like to become a perennial. I don't know whether it's self interest or it's just admiration.

No, it really is admiration for the title. I hate to burst your bubble. I'm not that deep a thinker. So the first example you bring out about BMW having five generations. So that is a stunner in and of itself. But then I tried to do the math and I don't understand how the math can work. Because if the youngest person at the BMW factory is 20 and the father is 40, or the mother and then the next generation is 60 and then the next generation is 80. Five generations means there's a hundred year old relative working. Or am I doing the math? How can five generations be working at BMW?

Yes and no. So you're Doing the math correctly, but you're assuming that only people who belong to the same family or the same lineage are working there. Generational groups sometimes are only 10 years. So it's people that were born in a given decade. You see what I'm saying? Oh, so the requirement here for working at BMW and counting generations is not that grandparents and grandchild and everybody in between are there. So some of these generations, like millennials and others, they're defined as people born between certain years. And so the interval is typically 10 years or 12 years or something like that. And that's how, in the end, you can get to five generations. Okay, but it may depend.

Testing your readers.

It's a very good question. It's a very good question, but you made an assumption that is not necessary. Okay, good catch. The test.

Like, did any other podcaster ask you that question?

No, no. Good catch. You pay attention. Absolutely.

So what has been the benefits to BMW of these five generations working at BMW?

So what we know is in general that work teams that include people with diverse backgrounds and that diversity could be ethnic diversity, could be diversity in terms of education or training, or it could be diversity in terms of age, tend to have higher productivity and higher creativity. See, this has been found in many settings, but in this particular case, what they found was that having the generations together essentially increased productivity and also satisfaction at work. And again, they seemed to enjoy the fact that they were different people there with different capabilities, because we develop different kinds of skills at different ages. And so people with different ages or belonging to different generations can bring to the table different kinds of skills. It can be experience, or it can be technical expertise, or it can be the latest knowledge about computers, whatever it is. But essentially that's what happened.

Has there been any kind of negative effect? Like 50, 60 year old person saying, I refuse to work for someone 30 years old who has only been at BMW for 10 years and I've been here for 40 years. I'm not going to take orders from this punk.

Yeah, no, absolutely. The problem with all of these multigenerational settings is that sure, there are advantages to be obtained, but there's also the potential for intergenerational conflict. And not only that, also, why don't you work harder? You have to pay for my healthcare and pensions, or I don't want to work here and pay taxes and then go into the healthcare and pension. So the potential for intergenerational conflict is always there. So you need good managers to essentially set up at the right conditions so that then you only Obtain the benefits and you try to avoid the shortcomings of a multi generational workplace.

I was thinking about this. If the President of the United States is 84 years old, you could make the case that the federal government is a multigenerational organization ahead of its time.

It's a hyper, multigenerational. Yeah, Right now. And remember, we also have the Supreme Court. We've always had the Supreme Court where appointments are for life. So some justices just go on forever, like Ruth Bader Ginsburg. So. Sure. Actually, in the government, if you include all of the branches, that's where you see, I think, the most extreme example of, or let's just say a piece of the government, the White House. So in the White House now you have a lot of generations. We remember they start with interns who could be like 20 years old in the White House. And then you have the President who is in his 80s. Absolutely.

I don't think we should get started discussing the Supreme Court because that's not an organization I hold in high regard right now.

I don't think anybody does, really. Yeah.

So can you explain what the traditional perspective is? Like the four stations of life?

Yeah. Once upon a time, about 140 years ago or so, some geniuses came up with the idea of having universal schooling, so everybody had to go to school. And also the idea roughly about the same time, that everybody should get a pension after working for so many years, that everybody should have a right to a pension. Once those two innovations became the norm in the world and they spread from one country to another slowly. But by 1960 or so, every developed country in the world for sure, every emerging market, also not the poorest countries, but every emerging market as well, had universal schooling and old age pensions. So once said that those two things and that they should happen at certain ages, then you're dividing life into. Before you go to school, that's when you play, you're very little, Then you're a student in school, possibly university. Then you work. That's the third stage. And then finally you're entitled to this pension. Not only entitled, actually by law, you are in many countries obligated to retire. Not in the US but in many other countries in the world, you're obligated to retire. And that's the fourth stage of life. So we've been living life in that way. And it's too compartmentalized, it's too regimented, it's just too strict and it doesn't allow for deviations. And if you take the wrong turn or you're unlucky in life and you don't make it to the next stage at the right time, then you're going to be permanently disadvantaged. I think that's the problem with this. But also in this damn ear in which we have technological changes and we have so many things just shifting, it's too rigid, it's not flexible enough to enable people to do the kinds of things that they would like to do. So that's the business of the four stages of life, or the four stations of life.

Do you think that the original reasons for coming up with this have largely disappeared and now we're preserving something that is no longer necessary or positive or desirable?

Oh, absolutely. Let's take universal schooling first. So universal schooling was created to help people learn, but also to essentially come up with a large enough number of industrial workers for manufacturing that would be disciplined. Remember, school was not only about learning, it was also about discipline. And teachers used to be very strict about all sorts of things. And then old age, pensions, the logic for them at a given age, at a mandatory age in particular, has also broken down because now we live much longer, and not only that, we stay healthy much longer than a hundred years ago. Somebody these days who qualifies for a pension, let's say at age 64 or 65, that person is still in very good physical and mental shape, could continue working. And in fact, so many people prefer to continue working, especially in the United States, when they're allowed to do, because retirement, I think, has been completely oversold. When people go into retirement, they get cut off from social networks at work, they become isolated, they start watching more tv. Because people, when they retire, we know this from research. Instead of doing great things like volunteering or spending time with the family or with friends, what they do is they spend more time watching TV or they spend more time with screens, with their phones and so on and so forth. In other words, it's not the best lifestyle for retirement. So I firmly believe, in response to your question, that the motivations, the reasons for having those two things in place, place have nearly disappeared.

You touched on this very briefly just now, but could you explain the difference between lifespan and health? Spanish and what are the trends for both?

Absolutely. So this is very interesting. Thank you for asking that question. So the lifespan is life expectancy, how long we are expected to live. And this has been increasing for the longest time, obviously, as we have managed to control disease and we have come up with medical procedures and with medications and all of that. The health span is how many of those years of life expectancy that we have are going to be in good health, mental and physical health, so that we could be active, we could work, or we could travel, and so on and so forth. So typically, of course, the lifespan is longer than the health span by about, I would say, on average, maybe eight years. So normally the average American, for example, the last eight years of his or her life or their life would be not in perfect health. So in some kind of situation in which they are limited, they cannot do whatever they want any longer. Now listen to this guy. This is really interesting. The United States is the only country in the world. I've checked this many times, is the only country in the world where the lifespan health. So in other words, life expectancy has grown faster than the health span. In other words, in the US we have added more years of life, but the years in which we remain healthy have stagnated, haven't grown as quickly. All right. In all other countries in the world, both things have been growing at about the same pace, but not in the United States. So we're adding years of life, but not as many years of healthy life. So in other words, the growth in the health span has been slower in the United States than the growth in the lifespan. And it's the only country in the world in that situation.

And why?

Because I think we eat too much processed food. We have a lot of people who unfortunately have excess weight. We have a lot of people who don't follow a healthy lifestyle, and that takes a toll. So modern medicine has given us the possibility of extending life or making it. Sure, making it possible that we don't die from certain causes. But because we have. In America, the average American has these very unhealthy habits, then, sure, medicine keeps us alive, but not necessarily healthy, right? Not necessarily 100% healthy so that we can travel and we can do everything we do. It's the only country in the world where this is going on.

So are you telling me that the last eight years of my life is gonna suck?

If you're the average person, yes. But I don't know whether you're average or not. I don't. I don't know enough about your lifestyle. Okay. Old age is not a row of roses. But if we follow a healthy lifestyle, we can enjoy a lot of years beyond, let's say, age 70 or 80, being in good shape.

Okay, so would you describe the structure of a multigenerational work team? Like, how does this work?

It is a team in which, as you said before, it could well be that a person of a given age is reporting to somebody who is younger. And what we know from research is that people are very accepting of that. And of course, in Silicon Valley, which you know very well, this is not unusual, that younger people are the bosses and older employees are the subordinates. But of course, in traditional companies like GM or you name them, General Motors or any of the old, the great old American companies, it was extremely unusual that a younger person would be the boss. So that's one way in which these teams operate. But more importantly, young people and people with more experience on the job bring different kinds of things to the table. They may bring technical expertise, or they may bring experience and so on. And therefore, in that diversity, that's where you find the roots of that higher productivity and higher creativity that I was referring to earlier.

So let's assume that's going to happen. I just have a list of areas that I would like you to explain. The implications of multi generational longer lifespan, longer health span, and what it means for society. So the first one is education. How should education change, knowing that this is what teams will be like?

Let me put it this way. Education used to be something like a gift learning that we would experience when we were young and we were supposed to learn at school or university, everything that we would need in order to be able to work for 40 years or so and then we would retire. But technological change has rendered that model implausible for the future because we see all of these workers who are now being replaced by machines or by AI, they need to be retrained. So learning now has to be something that happens at every stage of life. Now, intriguingly, technology is also coming to the rescue. So it's causing the problem, but it's also creating the solution. Because I think online learning will be the way in which we can have very large numbers of people engaged in lifetime lifelong learning throughout their lives. And in so doing, of course, they may be taking classes with people from other generations. So that's the multi generational learning that I talk about. This is already happening. I mention in the book that upwards of 30% right now of the American population is engaged in some form of online learning. And typically that takes place with other people of different ages. So this is already going on and the percentage will keep on growing. Most companies right now that have more than 500 employees, they offer lifelong learning for free for their employees because they have realized how important it is for their employees to continue learning. So this is a something that is already in motion And I think new technologies, new entrepreneurs who have launched educational ventures online, especially online, I think, are facilitating this process big time.

Do you have kids?

Of course. Two of them.

How old?

One is 24, the other one is 22.

Okay, so they're about the right age. Maybe if they asked you as they're in college or senior in high school. So, you know, dad, you're the expert. What should I be studying? Like, how do I prepare for this world? Like, how can I study for a job that doesn't exist yet? Dad, give me the parameters. What kind of education should I get?

So, first of all, I don't think my daughters would ever refer to me as an expert and would want my advice on that issue because they would prefer to make up their own minds. Okay, but if we're talking about other people's kids. Other people's kids. So I get this question frequently, and what I always tell both the parents and the kids is something very simple, which is, look, you're gonna have to switch jobs very frequently. You probably will have to switch careers once or twice, because now we live very long and things are changing so quickly. So what you need to do is to learn the most important skills that underlie everything else. So what are those? The ability to read and to write very well, and the ability to handle numbers and abstract concepts very well. There's a number of majors in college that prepare you for that. There's a number of high school programs that prepare you for that. But in addition to that, it's not just technical knowledge or technical skills. What I also tell them is that you need to be good at social skills because they're increasingly important in the workplace. What do I mean by that? The ability to work in teams, the ability to communicate, the ability to negotiate, the ability to resolve conflict, and also emotional intelligence. Those are social skills, and they happen to be as important as technical skills, I think, for the future.

Now, what if your hypothetical kids or daughters say to you, dad, I don't need to know how to read and analyze and manipulate data nearly as well, because there's this thing called artificial intelligence. And so it'll write for me, it'll speak for me, it'll generate content for me, dad, but your advice is already wrong.

It's outdated.

Yeah. So what's the answer to that?

Yeah, no, I get this very frequently, both from my kids and from my students. Yet you're too old to understand what's going on. And AI certainly is going to change quite a few things here and there. But. But Guy we're going to have to learn how to interact with AI. I don't think AI will just do its job by itself. We're going to have human beings. What we, what we're seeing, at least in these initial stages, is that workers like you and I, we use AI tools and we tell the machine, did you do that correctly? We prompt it, we try to essentially lead it to where we want it to go. It's a fantastic tool. I'm not saying that we're not going to be using it. I'm using it almost every day. But I think we will need to learn how to do that. And in order to learn how to interact with artificial intelligence, I think we will need to have the skills that I mentioned earlier. We will need to understand what artificial intelligence is all about. We will need to understand the technical aspects of the problem that we're trying to solve. And we will also need to have those social skills that I told you about earlier.

How does multi generation healthspan lifespan, these changes, how does it affect the careers of women?

Women, I think, have the most to gain from the breakdown of the model because for them, these four stations in life were very limiting. So women, because in addition to all of the other clocks that we have in life that you have to complete high school by a certain age, that you have to do this and that they also have the biological clock if they want to have children, that also imposes some kind of a constraint. So I think that the ability now that I think shifting away from the old paradigm into this perennial way of life that I talk about in the book is going to be very helpful to women. Because if we're talking about enabling people to have several careers, if we're talking about enabling people to learn at different stages in life, that's only going to help women, which now oftentimes lose their possibilities for promotion if they stop to have kids. So if we look at professional progression in life in a different way, I think women, more so than men, I would say, stand to benefit more. Although men will also benefit from a departure from the old paradigm, except that.

Men are still making the rules, correct? So a woman is saying, okay, so I can have kids, I can stop out. That's career. I had a career before that I had kids. Now I'm coming back career number two or three. But aren't men still making the hiring decisions? And you cite in your book that with the same qualifications, when you're able to infer the age of the applicant, 40% more callbacks for a Younger person than an older person. So who's making that rule?

Obviously, it's always the same people. But if we give women more opportunities, then eventually there will be more women in those positions of power, in those positions of decision making. It's very difficult to change the top of the pyramid by going directly to the top of the pyramid. But if we start introducing change from the bottom of the pyramid, then we will see that it's just a matter of time, hopefully a relatively short period of time, that we start seeing more women in positions where they can make decisions and they can change things.

Okay, what's the impact of this perennials on marketing?

Marketing has always had a very strong ageist bias, in other words, and it was for a good reason, I guess. For many decades, the largest segment in the consumer market was people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, because we had a baby boom. And therefore younger people were numerically more important than older people. And all marketers, advertisers, public relations folks, they were always addressing the needs and the aspirations of the younger age groups. But now, beginning in, Roughly speaking, about 10 years from now, first with Japan and then China, then Europe, then the us, Then Latin America after that, what we're gonna see is the largest segment in the consumer market is gonna be people above the age of 60, because we have all of those baby boomers becoming older, and we're seeing that fewer babies are being born. So more people at the top of the age pyramid, fewer at the bottom, and marketers will have no option but to recalibrate their messages because otherwise they're going to miss out on the largest segment in the market. So it's just as simple as that. That's going to be the biggest change. But in addition to that, let me add one thing that I think is really interesting, is that influencers have become, in this age of social media, so important influencers. So far, up until maybe five years ago or so, we primarily had influencers that were from the same generation as the people who were being influenced. But we're starting to see more cross generational influencing consumers being influenced by people who are of a different age group or generation. And that I think is really interesting because it will at some point then create a lot more convergence in terms of all of these marketing and all of the associated processes of introducing new products and tailoring them to the needs of different oops.

Now, are you saying that young people are influencing old people or old people are influencing young people?

Both. But the most striking is the second alternative, meaning older people Influencing younger people. This is really changing very quickly and it's something that marketers didn't see coming.

Wait, so this is the so called grand fluencers.

Granfluencers. Exactly right.

Okay, so I'm 68, so I'm a granfluencer. But like you're telling me I'm influencing people in their 20s or I can.

You can, exactly. And people in their 20s are increasingly more willing to accept influences from people who belong to other generations. And again, marketers have assumed that most of the influencing was happening inside generations within a generation, but not across.

This is good. I'm going to raise my prices.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Up next on Remarkable People. You don't have to make decisions whose consequences are going to last a lifetime because you see everything is changing so quickly. So what I advise you to do is to take a deep breath and think about what you want to do next. Have a plan for the future, but a flexible plan for the future and think that things are going to be shifting. And therefore the single most important thing for you to do is to learn how to be flexible, how to be adaptive, to change.

If you find our show valuable, please.

Do us a favor and subscribe, rate and review it. Even better, forward it to a friend. A big mahalo to you for doing this.

You're listening to Remarkable People with Guy Kawasaki.

How are we going to be defining retirement in this perennial world?

I think retirement will be a far more flexible stage in life in which whole array of possibilities will be available to us in part thanks to technology. Most people in retirement would like to do something that earns money right for them, but they don't want to go back to the office, they don't want to commute, they don't want to work so many days a week or so many hours. They want something more flexible. And of course gig work or certain categories of gig work or freelancing come handy. But I think we should take this one step further, which is that companies should also see that they can use a few hours of people above a certain age because that's all they want to work and they should engage with them and retain them as providers of certain kinds of services to the company. So I think it's not just gig work or freelancing. There's so many other things or systems or possibilities that could be put in place and made available to people above a certain age and that's going to help everyone. It's going to help them stay connected, it's going to help them not fall into this terrible thing of loneliness during old age. It's also going to help them make a little bit of money. Because remember that the average American doesn't save enough for retirement. And in general, I think it's going to propel the economy forward. I think it's going to have so many positive implications.

So let's pretend that Joe Biden calls you up and says, mauro, I need some help. You are advocating that this is multi generational perennials. All these factors are happening. So how do I fix Social Security?

You fix Social Security by encouraging people to save more, that's for sure. But if that's hard or they haven't done it, so it's just something that you cannot address anymore because they're already age 55 or 60 or 70, then you give them more opportunities to be engaged with money making work related activities under flexible arrangements. That's what you do. And more importantly, you also make learning available to people of all ages. Because you see, maybe somebody wants badly to retire because they don't like what they're doing right now at work. But if they had the possibility of learning a new trade or learning a new skill that would enable them to have a second career, maybe they would be very happy and they would take that opportunity. So I would tell Joe Biden, including your appeals for voting during the campaign, that you will facilitate both work options for people above a certain age, but also learning options for everybody throughout their lives so that they can reinvent themselves, especially in response to technological changes and other disruptions in the marketplace. But also because people do get tired of doing one thing and they want to switch on to something else.

I hear you. I understand that. I think that's a great idea.

But where's the money?

Ron DeSantis and Donald Trump are going to say, oh, he's trying to make you work longer.

Right.

That's how they're going to spin that.

Right. But this is only optional. Look, first of all, Americans tend to retire at a later age than most other people in the world, except for the Japanese. The Japanese have the highest actual retirement age in the world. Really? Yeah. But then the Americans come second. Yeah. Japan is. People stay working until very long, until very late.

Oh, I'm Japanese American.

I know. That's why I'm bringing up Japan all the time. I know. Yet you have the worst combination possible. So both Japanese, Japanese and the Americans, they keep on working for much longer than people from other countries in the world.

It's in my DNA. I cannot help it.

It is in your DNA, unfortunately. Yeah. But the point here is that this is optional. If people want to work, keep on working, then I think we should have opportunities for them to do. But more importantly, if people want to switch gears, they want to switch careers at some point, maybe when they're 50 or they're 55, we should also give them the opportunity. And that typically would entail learning. And, hey, this is where online technology comes to the rescue, because it is so much cheaper and so much more convenient. You don't have to leave your house.

There's one part of your book where I felt like such a loser, which is, I don't speak a second language. So can you explain why speaking a second language is so important?

I think it's important because it rewires the mind. That, you see, with language comes culture, comes a way of thinking about the world. Language itself is a cultural act of communication. But there's all of these assumptions that come with it. And when you learn another language, you're learning another culture as well. And that helps you put your own culture, your own language in perspective. Let me give you an example. Mathematicians tell me this is about mathematics, okay? That when they read an article, let's say, written by a Russian mathematician, it's an article written in English, published in English, and then they read an article about mathematics published in English, but written by an American, that they can tell who is the American and who is the Russian mathematician, because it gets reflected. Even though both are in English, it is reflected. The way you try to prove the theorem right is somehow shaped by the culture by the way that person thinks. So if that person is thinking in Russian versus that person thinking in English, although the articles are then translated and published in English, it does make a difference. And good mathematicians can tell who is the American and who is the Russian behind that paper. It's really interesting. It's fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. Do you believe that we're hardwired? I do believe that we're hardwired. Our brain is hardwired. There is some structural thing there, and language provides that because that's what we learn when we're babies, we grow up, and we are learning how to speak. First we learn how to listen and understand, and then we learn how to speak. And that hardwires us for the rest of our lives. And therefore, the way we think, the way we react to stuff in the world is very much driven by our culture and by what we learned when we were kids.

At 68, it's too late for me.

Then you can make an effort you can make an effort. You seem to be somebody who is very driven by what you want to achieve in life. So if you make an effort, you can learn new skills. And among those new skills, you can learn a new language or a second language. Frequently people say that those who know one country know no country, because you cannot put things in perspective. How can you say that the United States, if you don't know, well, any other country in the world? Yeah, you need some comparison. You need a benchmark. You need to gain perspective.

There was a scary period where the vice president of the United States could have been someone who didn't even have a passport. Can you even imagine that situation?

Yeah, that's very scary. Very scary.

No kidding. So as you look back, what has caused age discrimination?

I think this is human beings, and this applies to me as well. So I'm not just talking about human beings out there. I think we have these unconscious biases. We tend to make attributions. We tend to make assumptions about other people based on the way they look, based on some external signs that we can see, whether they're black or white or brown, whether they're old or young, and so on and so forth. And we make inferences based on those observations. So oftentimes we assume, oh, black, oh, this person probably behaves in a. In a certain way, whereas a white person behaves in a different way if it's old. We also attribute certain kinds of behaviors or certain kinds of attitudes to them versus younger people. I think it's a human tendency, as we always have, to make a very big effort to avoid these unconscious biases. Discrimination is, in part, overt open, but it's also subconscious. And there's all of these research that shows that people fall one time and again into the trap of subconscious or unconscious biases and discrimination. So it's something that we have to fight very hard if we want to reach equality sometime in the future. We see a woman and a man. I didn't mention that example. And we make attributions about, perhaps he's a doctor, but she's something else. So we all make these attributions consciously or unconsciously.

And have you figured out any practical ways to reduce that effect in yourself?

I think education. I think there's also exercises you can go through that alert you to some of those unconscious biases. And I think they do work, because all we need as human beings is the tool to help us see beyond our instincts and try to understand the complexities of the situation. And, of course, also Try to learn how to avoid simplifications like all women behave this way or all white people behave that way, and so on.

Not to go down a rat hole, but I can only imagine how you feel about some place's desire to stop learning about black history or slavery or something like, I don't know what the logic is to protect the psyche of white people. How can you justify not wanting to learn about the bad things that happened in America too?

No, absolutely. I think it's very important to understand the past with all of the great things about it and also all of the problematic things about it, especially if they continue to have an effect today. Because I don't think anybody can claim that today in America you cannot see the long term implications of slavery. There are long term implications of such a brutal system that lasted for so long. And we are in Juneteenth week this week, so I think this is an important reflection to go through. We're all humans, and when humans get together with other humans, as we have this tendency to get together with other people who are like ourselves, and then once we start going down that path, then the end result could be, it's not always, but could be racism. Right. For example, or could be violence and so on and so forth. So I think we need to accept first that we are humans. So we have to have the humility of acknowledging that we are humans, that we're subject to all of these tendencies, and that we need to actively work towards overcoming that shortcoming as human beings that we have. It's just a fact of life that we have these tendencies. And look, I think every country in the world or the people from every country in the world are racist. And I think historians have documented this really well. And it's not just the United States. So I don't think we should feel any different than other countries in the world. What we should do is try to work at becoming less racist.

Well, I could make the case that the same thing applies to ageism. So if you only work with millennials, guess what? You're not going to foster a multi generational appreciation. Same thing.

Oh, absolutely. Degenerate into the worst kind of ageism or discrimination by age. And by the way, the same is true of people in their 50s. If they work only, they interact only with other people in their 50s, they're more likely to develop this kind of discrimination against other age groups. So it works both ways? Unfortunately, yeah.

Some of the 50, 60 year old people that I know, they are convinced that millennials are lazy, shifty lack of attention span, discipline, unwilling to work hard, and they're only hanging around themselves.

Yeah, but the accusation of laziness has been made against every younger generation. It's not just against millennials, because the people who are now in their 60s, the baby boomers, they were also accused of being lazy by the greatest generation, the people who fought World War II. And they couldn't believe that the baby boomers, all they wanted was to go to Woodstock and enjoy rock music and smoke pot. So they thought they were, like, complete idiots and they weren't willing to work hard. So this accusation of laziness has been levied against every generation all the time. This is a story that repeats itself. And yes, it is a stereotype. It's clearly a stereotype.

Basically, nostalgia is overrated. Is that what you're telling me?

The way I would put it is that age is something to be reckoned with. So it is a reality that we age, we grow older. But what is not natural, what is not a given, what is not something that is inevitable, is that we look at people of other ages in a way that is stereotyping. That doesn't take into account the complexity and the individuality of every individual human being. We tend to generalize. And so we say, millennials are this way or baby boomers are that way. We tend to generalize. And that tendency that we have to generalize, I think is very damaging because at the end of the day, we're not recognizing the value of each individual human being.

So now a last question. That same question for various groups. So knowing what you know and thinking what you think and your ability to see what's happening, let's say that these various people are listening to this podcast. So what's your advice? First of all, to a teenager listening.

To this podcast right now is you're going through a difficult time because biologically, your body is changing. But unlike teenagers in the past, you don't have to make decisions whose consequences are going to last a lifetime, because you see everything is changing so quickly. So what I advise you to do is to take a deep breath and think about what you want to do next. Have a plan for the future, but a flexible plan for the future, and think that things are gonna be shifting. And therefore, the single most important thing for you to do is to learn how to be flexible, how to be adaptive, to change. So don't stress out about trying to choose your career for the rest of your life, because you have probably 80 or 90 years of life ahead of you.

Well, you know that every Tiger mom is, like, shutting off my podcast right now.

I know, but you're gonna ask me about them, too. Okay? Okay.

So. Good question. So now I know what you tell the teenager. What do you tell the parent?

That they need to understand that the world that their son or daughter is facing is completely different than the one they were facing. And in particular, the rate of change has changed. Things are shifting very quickly these days, and therefore, the rules of thumb that they used when they were younger to make decisions perhaps are no longer valid. That they need to let their children develop their own strategies for coping with this brave new world in which everything is changing very quickly. That's what I would tell them.

What kind of rules of thumb are you talking about?

The rule of thumb, for example, that you need to make up your mind relatively early on if you want to be successful in life, and that you need to essentially be very disciplined and pursue whatever it is that you want to be your dream very forcefully, as if there's no tomorrow, without thinking that in this new world that we have now, probably what you need to do is to make decisions for the next 10 years or 15 years, knowing that in 10 or 15 years you probably have to switch careers or you need to switch the way which you think about your life. That's the practical implication.

Four kids. I understand that. I actually think my four kids have taken that to heart, maybe too much. But anyway, what's the flip side? You're not saying, okay, you should be lazy, you should not study.

No, no, no.

So what's the balance?

The balance is, by any means, you want your kids to work hard because life is hard, and they should fend for themselves or learn how to fend for themselves, that the parents are not going to be there forever. So you do want them to work hard, but you want them to work hard, smart, not just hard. And right now, as things are evolving, to think as if we need to make decisions Today, when you're 20 years old or 18 years old for the next 60 years, I think that's a huge mistake. That's a big mistake, because you cannot assume that being an engineer and working as an engineer is going to mean the same thing in 20 years from now, especially with AI, maybe the job of the engineer will be completely different in 20 years from now. I can tell you the work or the job of a doctor will be completely different in 20 years from now. As we incorporate AI into medicine, we're going to have to be so much more flexible, and we cannot assume that you can be a doctor just by going to school for six years when you're very young and be able to practice medicine forever. That way it's not going to be the way things are going to turn out.

Okay, someone who's married with young children.

Oh, stimulate them, enjoy that time. Because it's at least in my experience, those were the best years of my life when my kids were small and they were totally dependent on me, but I was also dependent on them. But I was also dependent on them. So my life revolved around them. I had to oftentimes get up in the middle of the night and there was always something that required me to leave work, maybe take them to the doctor or whatever. So enjoy that period of time and try to stimulate them so that they learn various things. And as they grow older, let them make decisions that perhaps will need to be different than the ones that you made at the same age. Because the world is very different and it's becoming even more different than during your childhood. Okay, that's what I would tell them.

How about someone you know 40, 50, at the prime of her life, making lots of money, lots of responsibility, Life is great. What's your advice to that person?

Be on the watch. Because maybe something will happen tomorrow or in a year from now that may make you redundant at work. Your company may think that they no longer need you, or perhaps there's less of a need for people with your skills. So try to anticipate those waves of change. Try to be open minded about the fact that you're only 40 years old. So maybe before you are no longer able to work, you'll have to retrain yourself. You have to learn something new. So try to maintain that spirit of I'm still 20 years old, the rest of my life is still to be written. So don't think that every chapter in your life has been written. You still have a long ways to go, possibly another 40 or 50 years. And maybe you will need to adjust and change, switch gears in a dramatic way.

And how about an empty nester or.

Retired person for the empty nesters, and I'm an empty nester now. Try to find something to fill your life because obviously when the kids leave the home, it's pretty darn hard. You have all of this time suddenly and you don't know what to do with it and you feel that you've lost something that is irreplaceable. But again, think that you have 20 or 30 or even 40 years ahead of you and there will be more changes maybe you'll need to go back to school and so on and so forth. But for people who go into retirement, it's great. If that's what you want, perfect. But if you start feeling lonely, if you start feeling that you're anxious because maybe your savings won't last long enough, think about what is it that you can do? There's so many other opportunities now through gig work, through freelancing, technology is coming to the rescue. Maybe you can do something that will keep you entertained and at the same time will help you make money. So there's a whole new world there of opportunities, I think, for people at that stage in life to explore. So go ahead and explore it.

From his academic achievements to his media presence, Mauro has proven to be an exceptional thought leader. His ability to blend sociology and business economics has provided valuable perspectives on the intersection of demographics, economics and technology. Remember, stay curious and embrace the ever changing world around us. Thank you, Maro Gyan for joining us. I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People. And now I would like to thank the Remarkable People team. Jeff C. Peg Fitzpatrick, Shannon Hernandez, Alexis Nishimura, Luis Magana, Fallon Yates. And last but not least, the drop in queen of Santa Cruz, Madison Knysmer. And by the way, for the past two years I've been pronouncing her last name wrong. I've been saying Nismer. It's Nismer. Until next time, mahalo and aloha.

This is remarkable people.