Oleksandra Matviichuk: Fighting for Justice and Human Dignity in Ukraine

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I'm Guy Kawasaki and this is remarkable People. We are on a mission to make you remarkable. And helping me in this episode is Oleksandra Matvechuk. She is a human rights lawyer based in Ukraine. Since 2012 she has served on the Advisory Council under Ukraine's Parliamentary Commissioner for Human rights. And in 2017, Alexandra became the first Ukrainian woman to participate in Stanford University's Emerging Leaders program. Following the violent suppression of protests. In 2013, she coordinated the Euromaiden SOS initiative to legally assist persecuted protesters. She has spearheaded global campaigns such as Let My People Go and Save Oleg Sentsov to free prisoners of conscience detained by Russia, among many other awards. Alexandra was named Ukraine's 2017 Woman of Courage by the US embassy and in 2022 she co received the Nobel Peace Prize along with the center for Civil Liberties. Get ready for a really powerful episode. She is our first Nobel Prize winner on the Remarkable People podcast. I'm Guy Kawasaki and now here is the remarkable Alexandra Matveitchuk. Many people are familiar with lawyers in terms of maybe family law or criminal law, but I think a lot of people listening to this podcast may not be familiar with human rights lawyers. So could you please explain what a human rights lawyer does?

Human rights lawyers defend human rights and human dignity. I was born in Ukraine and this is a country which have a lot of issue with human rights because we restore our independence only in 19th when Soviet Union collapse. And all these years we were trying to build sustainable state institutions like court which can produce justice for people. And in such country where institutions are not strong and effective there are a lot of problems with freedom of speech, with freedom of assembly, with right to fair trial, etc. Etc. And that's why the work of human rights lawyer is to help this state institution to work in a proper way. This work changed from time to time because 10 years ago we obtained a chance for democratic transition because authoritarian regime in Ukraine collapsed and it opened for us a path for democratization. But in Order to stop us on this way. Russia invaded and Russia occupied Crimea, part of Lugansk and Donetsk regions and two years ago extended this war to the large scale invasion. So now the work of human rights lawyer for all these 10 years is connected with protection of people for international crimes which Russia committed in the occupied territories. And in the frame of this war.

Could you describe the kind of cases that you handle?

We were the first human rights organization who sent mobile groups when the war started. One important point, this war started not in February 2022, but like international community thing. This war started in February 2014 after the revolution of dignity when authoritarian regime in Ukraine collapsed. So we send these mobile groups and we start to document war crimes. And I personally interviewed hundreds and hundreds of people who survived Russian captivity. And they told me horrible stories. They told me how they were beaten, raped, smashed into wooden boxes, electrically shocked through their genitalia. Their fingers were cut, their nails were torn away, their nails were drilled. One woman told me how her eye was dug out with a spoon. We sent numerous reports to international organizations and foreign governments, to un, to Council of Europe, to oec, to, to European Union, to all human rights mandatories which can be useful in this situation. But this practice didn't stop Russia ignore all provision of international law. And as a human rights lawyer, I find myself in situation when the law doesn't work. And all international instruments on the international level are not working, they are not appropriate. They can't help me to save people from captivity and stop torture. That's why we change our strategy and we start organized international campaign. The most successful was several years before large scale war started. It's called Save Alexintsov Global action devoted to release of Ukrainian film producer Oleksintsov, who was illegally detained by Russia in Crimea, as well as other Ukrainian political prisoners. And we united people in 35 countries in the world. We start with simultaneous demonstrations in these countries. And it provides energy, essential energy, like a kick to international mechanism to work in a proper way. And to make a long story short, Oleksensov and dozens of Ukrainian political prisoners were released by Russia as a result of this campaign. Now, unfortunately, situation is much more difficult because now we're in a large scale war and Russia stop to pretend that Russia is civilized country.

So today, what is a successful resolution of a case? What is justice for these victims today?

Oh, it's a good question because I work with people who went through the hell, literally. And I know that people see justice very differently. For some people, justice means to see their perpetrators under the bars. For other people, justice means to get compensations. And without this they will feel unsatisfied. For some people, justice means just to know a truth what happened with their beloved ones. For another people, justice means just opportunity to be heard and to get public recognition that something which happened to them and their family is not just immoral, but illegal. This means that we, the human rights lawyers, have to build a sustainable and very comprehensive justice strategy with different elements and appropriate infrastructure to reach all these human needs. Because all these aspects is justice.

Now, are you working on individual cases or using an American term, is it a class action? Are you trying to work with tens of thousands of people, just a few human rights lawyers? How does this scale?

We work with individual cases, but my goal is to change this wrong wiring, not just to every day try to reach and to liquidate fires. When large scale war started, we united our efforts with dozens of organizations from different regions. We built national network of local documentators. We covered the whole country, including the occupied territories. And working together, we jointly documented more than 70,000 episodes of war crimes. 70,000. It's a huge amount, but still just a tip of iceberg. Because Russia uses war crimes as the methods of warfare. It's a way how Russia tries to win this war. Russia deliberately provide enormous pain and suffering to civilians in order to break people resistance and occupy the country. And I start to ask to myself, from the first months on this large scale war, for whom dobby document all these crimes for? Because as a lawyer I understand that we face with accountability gap. First, it's a huge amount of crimes. It's very difficult to investigate all of them according international standard. And second, there is no international court who can prosecute Putin and top political leadership and high military command of the Russian state for the crime of aggression. For their leadership decision to start this war, which is very essential because all these atrocities which we're now documenting, it's a result of this leadership decision. And that's why the huge part of my job nowadays is to establish a new international accountability mechanisms. We have to change the global approach to war crime justice and to global justice for crime against peace. And we are doing this not just for Ukrainians. The whole world will benefit after this change.

Are you saying that the ICC is ineffective and it's not really addressing this?

Now? The activities of international criminal court is extremely important. Let me remind you how important was this arrest warrant against Vladimir Putin and his child Commissioner Maria Lyvova Belova? Especially because we have politicians even in western democracies which still want to return to business as usual with Russia. And now they have to understand that when they try to shake Putin's hand, they will do it with a man who was officially recognized by International Criminal Court on this level of indictment, that Putin is one of the biggest child kidnapper in the world. And this is not political, this is legal statement. But what's the problem with International Criminal Court? First, International Criminal Court has no jurisdiction over the crime of aggression, which means that we have to establish a special tribunal on aggression like International Court to make Putin, Lukashenko and their surrounding accountable for the crime against peace. And second, International Criminal Court has jurisdiction over the crimes against humanity, genocide and war crimes. But according its policy, this court never investigates all crimes. Which means that the vast majority, probably 98% of everything which were committed by Russia will be a burden of responsibility of national system and investigate in all requirements of Article 6 of European Convention of Human Rights more than 126,000 criminal proceedings. This is a number which Office of General Prosecutor investigated for current moment. It's impossible even for the best national system in the world. Ukraine is not the best national system in the world.

How many children have been kidnapped in this war?

The honest answer, I don't know. We are in the fog of the war and we have only official numbers and our own expertise. Ukrainian authorities identified more than 19,000 children who were legally deported to Russia. Russian authorities tell that they transfer to Russia more than 700,000 children. The difference with number is because Russian authorities put in this number children who were illegally deported together with their parents. Probably you remember how in the first years of the war, hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians were deported to Russia. And Ukrainians and people abroad tried to help them to leave Russia as quickly as possible. Because very often these people were deported without documents, without money, without everything. After weeks or months being in basement of their residential building hiding from Russian shelling in a very difficult psychological mood. What we can tell according this problem, that this is a massive practice. Russia used these war crimes as a conscient policy of Russian Federation. And even more, this illegal deportation of Ukrainian children. It's a part of genocidal plan of Russia. Because in Russia these children were told that they are not Ukrainian, they are Russian children and Russia is their motherland and they are supposed to be adopted by Russian family. Regardless that fact that part of them have their parents arrested by Russian. So they are alive or parents or relatives in Ukraine waiting and trying to take to return them back. And this is genocidal policy. It's very important to understand what the goal is, because when we speak about crime of genocide, it's a crime of crime. And as a lawyer I know how difficult it's to prove on international level. But no necessity to be a lawyer to understand a common thing, that if you want partially or completely destroy some national group, there is no necessity for you to kill all representatives. You can forcibly change their identity and the entire national group will disappear. And that is why Russians take dozens of thousands of Ukrainian children to Russia to bring them up as Russians and to destroy their identity.

So these kids were kidnapped, taken to Russia and and now they're being raised by Russian families.

Yes, and there are a lot of journalist investigations about this. The last which I found very interesting because it was made by Russian independent media, the TV rain. They even achieved the comment of this Russian adoptive family. And look what they tell to this journalist, that first they adopted the small boy and they changed the boy's name and surname. And they told that the boy was crying and told that his real name is another, but they ruined his personality. And now this adoptive family said that he came to agree that with his new name. But what is strike me in this story even more that this boy have a sister and this sister has a 16 year old and she applied to Russian court, asking Russian court not to separate her from her brother. Russian court refused and they separated sister from brother. So this is a real horror on the example of these two child. It's a tragedy. And this Russian adoptive family saying with a smile how they ruin the real identity of this boy. I really can't provide some comments on this action, only probably legal comments, because from the human sense, from the common sense, it's horrible what they did to this child.

Can you tell me what your typical day is? What does a Ukrainian human rights lawyer do on a typical day?

There is no typical day in Ukraine, because war ruined everything which you call normal life, a possibility to go to work, to meet with your colleagues or friends, to hug your beloved ones, to have family dinner. Everything disappeared. Because to live during the large scale war to mean that you have no typical day, you have no structure in your life, you lose control over your life and you live in total uncertainty because you have never any idea when the next Russian attack started, when Internet disappeared, what happened with your beloved ones, which are in another part of Ukraine, because there is no safe place anymore where you can hide from Russian rockets. This is something which the war do with every people in Ukraine. Not human rights lawyer that we have no typical days Anymore.

If it's safe to tell me, where are you now? What city?

I'm in Kyiv. I'm in my home. And I'm afraid that you and our listener hear the voice of my cat because he always try to interfere to my podcast. I'm sorry, because he makes this voice very loudly. I have to introduce my cat. My cat's name is Sunflower. So welcome Sunflower. And sorry, I can't stop him.

We are happy to accommodate Sunflower. I don't know how to say this without sounding callous, but are you not in physical danger? Wouldn't the Russians like to in particular silence you as a human rights lawyer as opposed to the just a normal, regular person, a normal Ukrainian? Aren't you a target?

We all targets. And I get used to this situation because I don't know how my personal story will end. But I know that all our efforts have sense. And there are a lot of people who will continue this fight for justice. And that result, even unexpectedly, will be achieved. I have no doubt in it.

Can you give me a sense of how Ukrainians feel now? Have they given up from the outside looking in, and I don't know what filters come out of Ukraine that reach the United States or a person like me. It seems like Ukrainians are extremely resilient and clever and fighting back. But from your perspective, what's the tone out there?

Yes, Ukrainians are resilient because pessimism is a luxury. Sometimes journalists ask me about tiredness, and I very honestly tell that probably you can allow yourself to be tired being in Berlin, in Geneva, in Paris, in Washington. But if you will be tired in Kharkiv, in Odessa, in Kyiv, you will be killed. That's why pessimism is a luxury for us, but also true that millions of people in Ukraine are in pain. We have a lot of families separated. We have a lot of death. And this is something which I can't get used to because first and foremost, we are all humans. And it's very difficult to lose regularly your friends, your colleagues and people from your close circle. And because Russians, as they tell before, they deliberately provide enormous suffering, they try to arouse so called, to develop so called lord helplessness. They try to cultivate this lord helplessness that Ukrainians have no energy to resist. Just to say that there is no sense to oppose such enormous opposing power which Russia is, because for sure, Russia is a great military state, has nuclear weapon veto power in UN much bigger population. And before the war started, Russia was 11th economy in the world. But what we Know and what we prove to the world that ordinary people have a much greater impact than they can even imagine. Ordinary people are stronger than even the second army in the world. Ordinary people who fighting for their freedom and human dignity can change the world history quicker than the UN intervention. And we are ordinary people. This means that feel pain, we feel frustration, we feel all emotions in this war. But we also know that we have no other choice. This war is genocidical. If we stop fighting, there will be no more us.

I'm sure you've thought about this, but literally, what happens if Russia wins this war?

I can tell you this is something which Russians told to people whom we interviewed. People who survived from Russian captivity. They told us that Russians told them that first we'll occupy Ukraine and then together with you, we will conquer other countries. Because Russia is empire. Empire has a center, but has no borders. If empire has energy, empire always tries to expand. And that's why in this war we are fighting not just for ourselves, we are fighting for the people post world order, which was established when Nazi Germany collapsed. And this means that we are fighting to prevent the third World War. And this is not just words. Because we saw the same in occupied territories where Russia provide forcible mobilization of Ukrainians to Russian army. And even if you look to Russian army which invaded to Ukraine, you can see clearly this imperialist policy of Russia. Because they first mobilize people from indigenous people of Russia, like from Chechnya, Yakutia, Ingusha, Buryatia. And these small indigenous people now in crisis, their representatives told that when we lose all our men in this war, we as an indigenous people will disappear. And this is imperialist policy for Russia as empire. And this is something which is not unfortunately understandable for international community.

And what if Russia loses? Does China take back Manchuria and the Federation implodes? And what happens then?

Let me answer to this question with a quote of my Russian human rights colleague. Because I also ask them how I can help. You know that Russian human rights organization closed. My Russian colleagues labeled as foreign agents. Some of them have to leave country, some of them still there. Just recently, my friend, the head of Russian Human Rights Center Memorial, who received the Nobel Peace Prize together with me, was jailed. So they are really danger. And they still trying to do our best, their best to help us and to help Ukrainian citizens. And when I asked them what I and my team can do to help you, my Russian human rights colleagues always answered, if you want to help us, please be successful. Because only success of Ukraine and Military defeat of Russia provide a chance for democratic future of Russia itself. Not guarantee. There is no guarantee in our life at all. But at least a chance for democratic transformation. And this is a luxury to have a chance. Because for now they have no chance.

What has been the impact of the recently approved $60 billion of aid from the United States?

Probably you know that the vast majority, 88% of this money will stay in United States. So they will never transfer to Ukraine. This money will be used for buying weapons from United States. It's win win deal, so called because it's also stimulate United States economy to develop. We urgently need these weapons to stop Russian counteroffensive attack. Because Russia uses this situation. When military aid were blocked in United States for months and Russia killed, unarmed and tried to go further and captured as more territories as Russia can. And Ukrainians are ready to fight, but it's impossible to fight with bare hands. And that is why we are waiting for these weapons to be delivered. It's still on the way. And that is why Russia intensifies this attack and start to attack not just on Donbass, but also in Kharkiv region, near border with Russia in Sumy region. Something supposed to happen. It's also another part of border with Russia. And we are in a critical situation. And this is a price for delay. And we pay in a price for this delay of military support and the time for us converted in numerous deaths.

Now and sitting in Ukraine. And you're watching Congress debate about the aid package to Ukraine and trying to tie it into our southern border security. And it's all political right from the outside looking in. What do you think of the United States the way it does some of these things?

I'm in Kyiv and in Kyiv we are constantly being shelled, not just by Russian rockets, but also by Iranian drones. China help Russia to succumbent sanctions and import technologies critical to warfare. Syria votes for Russia in UN General Assembly. And North Korea sent to Russia more than a million artillery shells. So if authoritarian regimes support each other, I believe that people who believe in democracy and freedom have to support each other even stronger because we are losing freedom in the world. This year, half percent of population in the world will go to election. 80% of people around the world live in non free or partially free society. Which means that people who have a real right to vote and for whom they want, who have a real right to love whom their heart tell them to love, who have a real right to say what they want to say and real right to choose What God, they want to pray. It's just 20%, it's minority. And we saw the dangerous trends in so called well developed democracies. So we are losing freedom in the world. That's why it's so important important to support each other in order to save this dimension for freedom and from development of people and for their rights and freedoms.

Up next on Remarkable People.

His family hope to the last that he is alive. But like thousands of other Ukrainian civilians are in Russian captivity. But when Ukrainian army liberated Kharkiv regions, we found mass graves with dead bodies of men, women and children there. And in unmarked grave under the number 319 we found the body of this dead children writer Volodymyrvakulenko and you can ask me for what Russians killed children writer. The answer is simple, because they cannot.

Thank you to all our regular podcast listeners. It's our pleasure and honor to make the show for you. If you find our show valuable, please do us a favor and subscribe, rate and review it. Even better, forward it to a friend. A big mahalo to you for doing this. You're listening to Remarkable People with Guy Kawasaki. Do you believe that these sanctions that the United States announces, does it have any effect on the Russian will to wage this war?

Sanctions is effective. The problem is that Russia find a way how to bypass sanctions. When my colleagues analyze broken planes and drones on the battlefield, they found their American elements, American technologies. So Russia still import American technologies and use it in planes and drones to kill Ukrainians. This means that we have problems that we can't close that back door which Russia used to bypass the sanctions. And this is not just Ukrainian problem. This first and foremost problems of United States of European Union and other countries who introduce sanctions but can't secure sanction regime.

I'd like to return to the ICC for a second. So do you believe that this ICC action towards Putin, does it have any effect on Russian commanders and thinking that they're going to be guilty of war crimes or anything? Does it matter to them at all?

Let me tell you a story which can perfectly answer to your question. When ICC announced this first arrest warrant against Putin and his child Commissioner, because we all know Russian language as a former part of Russian empire, I hear the Margarita Semanyan, the head of Russia today on Russian television, she was furious. She was very angry, but not on the court. She was angry because she had a conversation with Russian generals and she told can you imagine these Russian generals told me probably we have to change our military tactics because we can also Being arrested, issued on arrest warrant by International Criminal Court. And she was so angry. She told how they can think about this. They have to be worried only to lose this war. So it happens. What I try to explain for people about justice, because people they think that justice is about the past, because you will be punished for something which you have already done in the past. Or people think that justice is only about future, because it provide a signal for future, that if you commit the same, you will be punished like previous perpetrators. But justice have a very significant impact to the present. When you start demonstrating justice. Even if a part of Russians start to be doubt that probably this time they will not avoid responsibility. How they avoid in Chechnya, in Moldova, in Georgia, in Mali, in Libya, in Syria, in other countries of the world. So probably this time they will be responsible for everything which they commit by their own hands. Even if part of Russians start to be doubt. When we speak about category of large scale war, it can save thousands, thousands and thousands of lives. Because it will have a frozen effect to brutality of human rights violations. And this is the strategic meaning of justice to present along those lines.

Then it is more effective to prosecute now, during the war than like in World War II, where people waited till after the war.

But for what we have to wait. This is the common sense. If we want to prevent war in the future, we have to punish the state and their perpetrators who start such wars in present. But this common sense, it's a logic have only one precedent in the whole history of humankind. And it was Nurebeck trial. And what is Nurebeck trial? It's victorious trial. It's trial where Nazi war criminals were tried. Only after Nazi regime had collapsed. But it was in past century. We live in Yuan. The world changed a lot after the second World War. UN was established, international treaties were signed. The international architecture of peace and security were developed. People and countries become more and more civilized. For what we have to wait. Justice must be independent of all fact. When and how the war will end, we have to send a strong signal that if you start aggressive war, we don't care. Will you lose this war? Will you win this war? If you start aggressive war, you will be punished. And only this can prevent wars in the future. Because it means that the war have no sense.

And do you think if Russia wins this war, they will still be brought to justice?

International crimes have no statute of limitation. Which means that it's better to demonstrate justice sooner than later. Which means that we as a people can do it in future, wherever we want to do it.

What is your interpretation of the relationship between Trump and Putin?

I'm not very familiar with American politics, but Trump is a very bright figure for sure. I heard about him especially when he was a president of United States. And I think that Putin is very predictable and Trump is very unpredictable. This is a huge differences between these two types of people because for us it was very easy to predict that Russia will invade it, that Russia will use force in order to stop democratic transition of Georgia, to stop democratic transition of Ukraine, that Russia will try to present and all this broken international order like a fat a complete international community and push international community to reckon with it. It was predictable with Trump. We don't know what to expect.

Frankly speaking, if this war ends, would Ukraine accept the end of the war with Russia retaining Crimea? Or does Ukraine want Russia out of every single part of Ukraine?

Let me make this question more human because I'm not politician, I'm not diplomat, I'm human rights lawyer and I work with people and I always try to bring human dimension into conversation about war. I will tell you a story. This is a story about children writer Volodymyr Vakulenko. He wrote beautiful stories for children. An entire generation of Ukrainian children brought up of his deities book. During Russian occupation of Kharkiv region, Volodymyr disappeared. His family hoped to the last that he is alive. But like thousands of other Ukrainian civilians are in Russian captivity. But when Ukrainian army liberated Kharkiv region, we found mass graves with dead bodies of men, women and children there. And in unmarked grave under the number 319, we found the body of this dead children writer Volodymyr Vakulenko. And you can ask me for what Russians killed children? Writer the answer is simple. Because they can. Because Russian occupation mean torture, enforced disappearances, sexual violence, denial of your identity, forcible adoption of your own children, filtration camps and mass graves. Because people under Russian occupation have no tool how to defend their rights, their freedom, their property, their lives and their beloved ones. And you know what? We have no moral right to leave our people alone for torture and death under Russian occupation. This is something which is not very visible when you speak from geopolitical perspective, but very understandable when you speak from human perspective. We are fighting not just for territories, we are fighting for our people who live there. It's our neighbors, it's our members of the families, it's our friends, it's our people. It's unhuman to leave them alone because the life of people can't be political compromise.

Okay, my last question for you is this. So let's say my listeners are hearing you and you know, we're Americans and we're sitting fat, dumb and happy in America. What can we do to support you?

Oh, you can do a lot. You can do a lot. And let me tell you one example. When large scale war started, not just Putin, but also our international partners were confident that Ukrainians have no right to resist because Russia is a strong state and blah, blah, blah. But Ukrainians decided that we will fight for our freedom and human dignity. And when international organizations and embassies evacuated their personnel, ordinary people remained. And ordinary people started to do extraordinary things. It were ordinary people who helped to survive under artillery's fire. It were ordinary people who broke through the encirclement to provide humanitarian aid, who tried to organize evacuation from siege cities and settlement under Russian fire, who rescued people trapped into the rubbles of residential buildings. Ordinary people rescued their lives to save other which they have never met before. And this was a part of Ukrainian success that this plan that Ukraine will be occupied in three, four days was damaged. But another part was ordinary people in United States and other countries who see our struggle and start to demand from their government to help us. Because you're right about Ukraine, because you collect money, because you urge your government to help more. We survived and you can continue to do it. I'm extremely grateful for all people in United States for your help and for your assistance and for your solidarity in this dramatic time of our history. You save our lives, but the truth is that the wars continue. This means that we still need your involvement and you can do a lot in your country to make the policy of United States more sensitive to Ukraine success.

Do you have anything more you want to say? I have asked the questions that I want to ask. And what a powerful episode this will be. So you have the mic, you can say anything you want.

Probably I will say that I would never wish anyone go through our experience because war is the most horrible thing which you can just even imagine. And if I can in future, I would like to forget a lot which we going through now. But I want to remember for ages that there are a few things which are literally important in our life. Because when you see how people support each other, when you feel this wave of solidarity across the country, when you experience how people rescued their life to save others, this is a feeling when you acutely aware what does it mean to be human. And I want me to remember what does it mean to be human.

All I can say is, wow, what a powerful episode with Alexandra Matvechuk. I hope you appreciate what she's going through and dangers she is encountering. To do what she does. And let us all never forget what it means to be human.

Hello, everyone.

I'm Guy Kawasaki. This is Remarkable People. First, I would like to thank Mariana Bonici. She introduced us to Alexandra and made this interview possible. Next, I would like to thank the Remarkable People team. That would be Jeff C. And Shannon Hernandez, sound design engineers. Matt As A. Knysmer, producer and co author. With me of Think Remarkable. Tessa Nysmer are researchers Alexis Nishimura, Luis Magana and Fallon Yates. We are the Remarkable People team, and we want you to be Remarkable Humans. Until next time, mahalo and aloha. This is remarkable people.