Communication in English | Phrases for effective business conversations with @AllEarsEnglishPodcast

Hey, everyone, it's Hadar. Thank you so much for joining me today. We are going to talk about some communication challenges and certain situations that you can easily overcome when working remotely. For that, we have a special guest today, and our guest is Lindsay McMahon. Lindsay is the co host of the excellent podcast All Ears English. The All Ears English podcast has over 1.3 million followers on Apple Podcasts and and Spotify globally, and has been ranked in Best of Apple podcast categories in 2018 and 2019, as well as the number one in US education language courses. Lindsay and her team have been featured in Podcast magazine, Language Magazine, and Forbes. I am so honored to have her here today for the second time. So let's welcome Lindsey McMahon. Hi, Lindsey, how are you doing?

Hi. Hi, Adar. I am doing well. Glad to be here. Thanks for having me on your show.

I'm so happy to have you here again. We already had an interview on my channel and podcast, and we talked about those business vocabulary lists and why you don't actually need them, and it was a great episode. How have you been since then? It's so lovely to see you again.

Yeah, I've been. Well, it's been a few years. Yeah. The world has changed, but we are still here, you know, serving our audiences. I'm excited to be here. We're still podcasting four days a week because we love it. Going strong.

We love your podcast.

Thank you. Thank you.

Yes. So obviously, you know, English is something. We're both very passionate about English and teaching English, not only because it allows people to communicate, but also to create better circumstances for. For people around the world. How do you see English being used more and more recently in the. In this. In the global market and global word in recent years? And how is it different from when you just started?

Yeah, I mean, I think social media, the Internet has changed everything. We started in 2013, and so over the last 10 years, it's so hard to imagine. It's been 10 years since we've been podcasting it all. There's English, but it. It is. And. And obviously social media has brought us more together. And then we, you know, we had the pandemic. And I think remote work has really become a part of many people's lives. I think it's less common, from what I've heard in Asia. It's very common still in the U.S. i think New York City is still only around 60, 65% occupancy in Midtown for office buildings. And so those people are working from home or their work from anywhere is What I like to say, you know, you know, working from airports, going, staying in air, Bs and Bs. And so it really matters. So language matters more than it did before, I think. Yeah.

Right. Because you can, you know, you can live in Europe and work in the US or you can work in, in different time zones. Yeah. And there are a lot, a lot more opportunities. But also with that, I think there are some challenges that people are facing, especially when, when working remotely, there are some business conduct and. Or behaviors.

Yeah.

That, you know, things that we don't necessarily take into consideration when you. We have face to face communication.

It's so true. And I think that we have a tendency to think that now that we're all in the same zoom room, that we all have the same culture somehow. But we can't forget, you know, we're all human beings and we have, we have a desire to connect and to fulfill what we want in life. Yes, that brings us together. But culture is a layer that can't be ignored. And when we're in the same zoom room, it can be that it's easy to ignore or forget about. So. Right.

How much do you incorporate this conversation about culture and, and expectations. Cultural expectations. When it comes to communicating in English.

We do talk about it quite a bit. I actually studied this in my graduate program. I went to graduate school in Boston at a. I did a program in intercultural communication. And so mind always goes there. And I always, you know, what I got out of that program was that culture should be complicated, because it is. People are complicated. It's never simple. So anytime you're thinking, what do people do from here and here and here, you're going down the wrong path because people are just not that simple. But culture does influence our behavior. And there are a lot of ways we can define culture. It can be generational culture, it can be company or corporate culture, industry culture. There's a lot of creative ways to think about culture. So if we're not using it to predict behavior, rather maybe to look backward and say, oh, maybe that influenced someone's behavior, that can start to add to the picture of what makes us kind of interesting as people.

Yeah. And I think it's really important, especially in such a global world, to remember that you don't necessarily need to immerse in someone else's culture or assimilate yourself in. It's just you need to recognize the differences.

Right.

And, and to understand what would be the best way for you to communicate, to get what you want, and also to make other people feel comfortable. But it's not about changing who you are or changing your culture in any way. Right, right.

You don't need to go native as we. As we used to say. I lived in Japan for a year and a half, and there is that term. Exactly. We don't need to live in someone's culture for years and years. It's really about respect. How to. And the challenge there is what we see as being respected from our culture might be totally different. So that has to be a deep layer in our, like, in our language learning, in our communication in business and life. Right, right.

So today you're gonna share with us some tips on how to. How to communicate better, especially working remotely. And it's going to be both business tips and also cultural tips and definitely English tips.

But.

But before we get to that, I want to ask you, how has English communication changed since COVID and since we started introducing remote work? So you did talk about culture, but what else are you seeing that could be challenging for our students for speakers of English as a second language?

Yeah, I mean, I think that, as I said, you know, remote work, hopping on meetings, when maybe we're not going through the routine of going into the workplace to prepare can be a mental shift. So maybe language has to feel more natural, but maybe we're not quite ready for it. We have to get there. I think, you know, the world's in a tough place right now. A lot of people are frustrated for many different reasons. And that might seep into our communication. No question. Right. Whatever's in our minds at the time we're at work interacting can affect our communication. So not sure if that answers your question, but that's the first thing that came to mind. It does.

And when you said that, it also made me think about, you know, like, all those small opportunities that we usually have when we work in the same place to communicate, like by the coffee machine or when we get to work. And the, and the small talk that we are used to have, we don't think about it, but it's an excellent way to practice English. And when we don't have that and we have only zoom calls, then you have to be like, high performing the moment you hit, you know, like, you log in.

I know.

And, and, and really, it's what you said. Like, we don't have that. Like, you have to go from 0 to 100 and we don't have those small interactions.

Yeah. So, yeah, that's interesting. And just to add another piece, sometimes I think about Generation Z Sort of people who are just starting their careers, who were maybe in college or university during the pandemic and are coming out and they're going into the working world remotely. And I think, oh, my gosh, what is going to be missed?

I know.

So that's a thing to think about. Yeah.

You know, my team, we all work remotely. So I have a team from all around the world, and every now and then we meet together for a week and we do a lot of work. And I'm like, that's amazing. It's like a breath of fresh air. It's just like all of a sudden it doesn't have to be so complicated to say the smallest thing, you know, and we love working remotely. It gives us a lot of options and. And, you know, we get to work with each other, but really, like, when we're in the same room, there's nothing like it.

Oh, that's amazing. It's so energizing. I've. We also, our team at Dollars English, we all work remotely in different corners of the country. We've had a few live events over the years in Japan, in New York and in Boston. And I've never seen so much motivation from myself and from my team and obviously from the students that were. It's. There's a magic that happens, and maybe that becomes even more special when you are a 99 online.

Yes. Yeah, 100. And really, like, I don't want to say, oh, this, you know, because remote work is not good because it really allows us to meet so many people around the world and to. And to do things that were not possible otherwise.

Yeah, exactly. There's pros and cons, but I think this is the way the world's moving. You know, I think that when people negotiate a salary package, a job package, now, they get a new job. There are expectations in certain industries that there will be remote work as an option. It's really fascinating to have seen. Right. Because we started our companies online and so I was always online in 2013. No one was at that time. But now the expectations, it was like if there was a work from home Friday for people are like, oh, my gosh, my company lets me work from home on Fridays.

Now it's.

The expectation is two or three days a week. Right, right, right.

And I think this hybrid model is. Is great. But I'm sure that people watching this, especially if they speak English as a second language, have felt some challenges when. When, you know, communicating in English and working remotely at the same time. So what are some of the Things that you see that could be challenging or problematic when working remotely.

Yeah, let's get into it.

Yeah, exactly. And give us all the tips.

Okay. So I thought I would introduce these as kind of remote work business blunders. Right? The little mistakes that can be corrected. And of course we, we all make mistakes. That's totally fine. Specifically, the first one is something that happened to me recently. I had an appointment set up with a company, an international company working on licensing courses and things like that. And we had an appointment. Let's say it was 12 noon on a Wednesday and all of a sudden it's a few hours before that time and I see a calendar, a Google Calendar update like that time has been updated to a time I hadn't, I didn't, I, I wasn't available and there was no email to go along with that. There was no explanation. There was no, I'm sorry, I have to cancel. Would you be available, you know, at this time? And so I ended up replying and saying, oh, did you need to cancel? I'm not sure if that time works. And so the mistake, the blunder that I think could have been done better was just to reach out and we can talk about the language to do that. Right. The vocabulary for sure. But it may have been a cultural difference. I'm not sure I got the feeling that there was some aspect of culture. Have you, have you had any experience there, Adar or. I'm not sure what your go to kind of mode is, but for me I, I was kind of expecting a bit more of a explanation or a reach out.

People are so used to working internally and just taking actions without updating people and they forget that when there is someone from outside of the company, they, they don't, you know, they're not on the same page as you and they have their own schedule. I've had people just cancel meetings and then I would see it canceled and I was like, when, what, wait, what is this mistake? And then you start like thinking and then you spend time sending an email, which is not ideal. Right?

Yes.

So, so I, Yes. And I think also, you know, I think what would be really useful is to, to know how to say it in a polite way. Sometimes maybe people feel bad so they don't say anything. So what would be a good way to say it?

Yeah, so, yeah, so an email that I was anticipating getting would be something like, I apologize but I need to reschedule our meeting. You know, new sentence. Does Wednesday at 12 noon work for you? Simple two sentences, but it's all I needed. Right. And again, I'm really talking about external communications from a company to an individual or another company. You know, I have kind of business friends I meet with weekly, and my friend Alan, for example, he'll just reschedule us. No problem. It's fine. I'm really talking about a more professional engagement here. Right, right. Yeah. Yes.

And. And I think that because it's not an in person meeting, people respect. May respect your time a little less, but no, like if you have a schedule and it's on the calendar, you respect that you would show up to it. Like you would show up for a one on one meeting. So it needs to be, you know, addressed the same way.

Yeah, I mean, I think the bottom line here for this first blunder is even if you're not exactly sure what to say in the email, it's better to send that email and say something like wrong or grammatically incorrect than not send it at all.

Yeah.

If that makes sense. Yeah. And then, you know, there's another way we could say it if we want to be a little more casual. I like the chunk. I hate to do this. It feels, this feels more like something I could say to a friend by text message even, or a professional contact still. I hate to do this, but I need to reschedule our meeting. Can you please send me your availability for next week? Okay, so just communicate.

Feel like you're putting in a little bit more emotion to it.

Yeah. You know?

Yeah, that makes me feel okay. You know, like I, I'm. Yeah, I get it.

Yeah. And so again, could have been culture. Could have been that company's internal culture. I'm not sure. But the lesson here is communicate.

Yes. I hope they're watching.

They are. Yeah.

Okay, so what would be the second one? The second?

Yeah, so this one kind of goes for remote work or in person meetings. So this is talking about meetings. The whole, you know, all of these tips really kind of center around meetings and how we get to the meeting, what happens when we're in the meeting. I think there, there's might be a misconception from our listeners that we need to become kind of robots when it comes to business. Right. But our philosophy here at Allers English at least is be a human. Right. Move between formal, informal and semi formal language. There's a place for all of that at work, depending on who's around you. And so the. We actually built a business course a few years ago and we interviewed business professionals and one of the tips that came out of it this is more of a human tip, but it works for English too. Don't be a meme monster, which is what this particular professional said. Ask the ask. Make sure the focus is on other people. So coming back with tag questions, what do you think? What about you always coming back to the other person. I think most people are not inclined in that direction of being a me monster. But maybe if we're nervous it could start to feel that way. Does that make sense?

Yes, absolutely. And then we like especially people who might be self conscious about their English, they would like always try to prove or to make sure that they get it right. And sometimes all you need to do is just listen, ask and listen. That's it. And the other person would think that you're an excellent communicator.

You become so much more interesting when you are interested. Right. That is such a good universal principle and it's so true. And all we need is the language to do it. So, so being conscious of that, this, this serves you in, in person meetings, remote meetings. It, it, it's, it's good. And then, and then that can also help you to really focus on human connection, you know, so, so this kind of is the counter, there's a, there's a counterpoint to this, which is don't be that robot. Share a little bit of who you are, but do it gradually over time and then focus on the connection. What could you have in common? This is for the small talk moments before, before the meeting, as we're walking out of the meeting or as we're finishing up. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Why, why do you think small talk is important?

Oh my gosh. Well, I think culturally speaking, there are certain cultures that won't do business with you until, or trust you fully until they feel like they know you to some extent. I think American culture is a little less that way. I think we're a little more kind of low context. Let's just get down to business. But I think as human beings we need to know who we're spending time with, business wise, no matter where we're from. What do you think? Right.

I, Well, I come from a culture where small talk is really like, it's, it's, it's not a value. Like you go into a meeting and not have any small talk and go directly into, you know, like speaking about the matter. And, and people find it hard because they feel like it's artificial, but at the same time they don't understand how important it is for the other person to, you know, to, to make that Initial connection and to build for something that is bigger. So fascinating. For me, it's absolutely crucial and I enjoy it, like, especially if I. Because I'm the kind of person who likes to find out more about people. So I always ask questions. For me, like, the more I know about the other person, the better it is. But I know that people feel awkward doing that, especially online.

Oh, interesting, interesting. But it's so. It comes back to, you know, what is the definition of respect? So from your culture's perspective, the idea is work is. Is it? I'm asking, is it? We're going to save time, we're going to achieve the goals here, and then I'm going to have time for myself, my family, whatever else I need to do. Is that. That's considered respect. Is that kind of respect would be.

To have, like, deep, meaningful conversations.

Yeah.

And not to talk about things that are not memorable in a way.

Right.

Like to go deep and to really talk about. So it's not necessarily. But it could be also inappropriate in some cultures to talk about, like, you know, asking right away if you're married or if you have kids or how much, you know, like, and, and. Or where you work or things like that that other cultures would be. Wait, I don't ask me about this because.

Interesting.

Personal.

Yeah. Oh, wow. It's fascinating. So I think we kind of have to be students of the. As we're engaging globally remote work, we have to be students of the world and just kind of figure it out. Oh, you know, be curious. Where does this person come from? What might they be thinking? How could I build a relationship with this person? Right. Ex.

Yeah. And. And not to easily get offended because you have to understand when. Where the other person is coming from. Because maybe what you find aggressive or, you know, beating around the bush is actually their way to connect with you, but they're doing it in their own language and it's just not the language that you speak.

It's true. In American culture, we use we, you. I find myself saying a lot. I want to respect. Respect your time today. What are your time constraints? There's a lot of respect around time, whereas it could be the opposite thought. If we're just rushing through something, it's not respectful from maybe in parts of South America, for example, it's the completely opposite orientation towards time in a way. So fascinating.

This is such a great phrase, by the way. Like, if we're talking about English, like, in a great way to segue from, you know, small talk. And if you feel like, okay, you want to move on. Okay. I want to respect your time today. So here's what I wanted to discuss with you. And that's a great way to transition. Love it.

It's. Sometimes I wonder if I'm overusing that or if it's not go, depending on who I'm talking to. But it's. It's a good go to. Right. If people know they're being respected, it's. It's always a good way to go. And then kind of. I do have one other tip there. Should I. Should I just go ahead into that hadar or around this, this second kind of idea of small talk, navigating small talk. I would say, remember threads. And this is, this is again, kind of a social skill, but might be a little bit more challenging in our second language. But it is so incredibly useful. For example, coming as you get to know someone more and more, you're going to meet with them a second time, a third time, remembering what they said and asking for their opinions on things. For example, how did your daughter's drama performance go last week? You know, you remember that their, their child had a performance. Ask about it. Right. Or you could say, I'm wondering what you think about xyz, the new rules of baseball. If someone is really into baseball, you just saw in the news, they actually changed the rules. Baseball last summer or two summers ago. I'm wondering what you think about that, you know, because, you know, they love baseball. These things are so much more powerful than the boilerplate small talk kind of preconceived phrases. Incredibly powerful. When someone asked me a question about something they know I care about, that's a fast way to build a relationship.

Absolutely. I love that it's so important and to remember what they said and even to take notes at the end and like, if you need to come back to it afterwards.

Great. Yeah. Yeah. And. And this is something I need to get better at. I want to get better at. And so, and so that's, that's the idea. Keep those threads open, keep moving through your relationship. And you're kind of updating at the beginning of the meeting, maybe at the end of the meeting. And then, of course, when there's a new person at work, ask them good questions. You know, what keeps you busy when you're out of work, Things like that. Or what do you like to do outside of work. Avoiding the phrase what's your hobby? I feel like that was taught a lot when I was in Japan. What are your thoughts on, on, on.

That phrase as someone who doesn't have any hobbies? I hate it. It's like. It's like. It's like, what's the weather like? How do you enjoy the weather? You know, for me, it's the same because it's okay. Let's, you know.

Yes.

If there is always a way around it. But this open question, like, would be very. It's just like to check off, you know, asking a question. That's it.

It's so true. And Michelle and I on Allers English, we did an episode on this, and we really got honest around our insecurities. When this question comes up, we think, well, I'm really into meditation. Is that a hobby? I don't know if it qualifies. Maybe I'm not doing enough with my time outside of work. You could start to really question yourself so bad. I know.

It's like, why don't I have any hobbies, like playing piano or something?

Right. But, you know, like, you're living a passionate and fulfilled life. Right. So, you know, you're okay, but it's like something's missing. So just taking that phrase out of the textbooks. I'd like to rewrite all the English textbooks and just take it out entirely.

Please do. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So good. So. Yeah. And there's a third one, if you. If you want or. Yeah, I think. Yeah.

So the third. The third challenge, the third challenger mistake that you notice this.

Yeah. And I like to think of them as challenges that we can always overcome. You know, I like the word blunder because it's kind of catchy, but these are things we can always recover from at the next meeting. Right. It's a matter of mindset, like we talked about on your appearance on Allers English and just learning the. The English for it. So awkward transitions between speakers, spending time learning in business English. How do I actually transition when I'm speaking to someone else? And this could go for. If it's more formal, someone is leading that meeting. How are you, as a leader, going to do that? But usually I think it's just if I'm presenting my piece, maybe I'm the designer on a tech team. And you have a project manager, a dev, and you have a designer. I've presented my wireframes. Right. How am I going to pass it on to the next person who's going to present the Kanban board or something. Right. It matters how you do it.

Oh, tell me.

Yeah.

So how do you do it?

Yeah. Well, so, you know, things we can say, things like this. Now I'm Gonna pass this to Mike. It can be really simple, right? It's not about winding up and doing a whole thing, introducing this person who's in the remote room with me or physically in the room. It's about a simple. But it's something to kind of give them the stage. And maybe it's a transition that keeps people paying attention. So now I'm going to pass this to Mike, or next up is Sarah, who's going to go through the wireframes. Right. Or I'll hand it back to John to show us the launch schedule. So there are little things we can do. But I think my point here is spend the time learning those so it doesn't feel awkward. Because it's just as important how you move to your co workers as it is what you say about your update.

This is so good. And it can save so many awkward moments for you and for other members in the, in the meeting. Because, you know, when you're in the same room, sometimes a gesture could be enough or you feel someone's energy, like about to speak and then you kind of like, back off. But you don't have that online, you don't have that on Zoom.

We've lost.

So you have a responsibility when you speak to understand how to transition. So there isn't this awkward silence. You don't feel bad. And then other people know that that's their cue.

That's the key. And it. Exactly. It just feels good. Like, it feels like the meeting's been successful. When things have moved smoothly, everyone's been heard, everyone's had the stage. It's important for employees to feel heard. If you're in leadership in your company, you're the leader, your employees need to feel heard. So this is a way to make sure that happens.

Okay, first of all, I'm going to take all those phrases that you suggested today and you talked about it. I'm going to put it in the description so you guys can read it again and go back to it if you need to, because it's really, really good and really useful and sometimes just like remembering it, even write it on a post it note so you have it in front of you until you get it into your system.

Love that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow. This was so, so helpful. So I think that when you feel comfortable in that, in that scenario, in, you know, on a Zoom call, and that is beyond the language, you know, it obviously will have a positive impact on your fluency and your confidence to communicate and to say what you want to say. Because if, like, you Feel awkward or, you know, like you don't know, or you had a bad start because you didn't know how to conduct the small talk, it's going to affect the entire meeting. Right.

That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree with you. Yeah. It can really bring you down. And that's where kind of our practice, our mindset practice comes in beforehand. Right. But yeah, we don't. We. We want to set ourselves up for success. Right. And when we have these language resources, we can stay in that positive mindset and make it work. I love it.

What would you say to someone who's really afraid of. Of this, of remote work, even though they know this is what they want, this is like their. Their next goal, and that's why they're learning English for, like, what. What would you tell them?

I would say, in my experience or my 42 years here on this planet, is that the only thing that really kills fear is action. Right. So taking action. So you need to find a way to go after that job if you want to apply for that remote job or do things that provide practice that you feel like you're in that job, you're rehearsing. So take action. And once you get into the thing, you're starting to take action, you realize, oh, this actually isn't so scary after all. I have this little thing I need to work on, this grammar, these words, this aspect of my mindset, But I can set up a schedule and a plan and I can get there. But if you're saying, oh, someday I want to remote work, I want to work for a. For a tech company remotely, but I just don't think I'm ready. It'll be scary forever. Right. And you'll never get there. So taking that action is. Is the way to kill fear. Yeah, that's.

That's so smart. That's so good. And, like, it's really important to remember it and really, like, take that action and break it down into smaller actions so that it's easy, it doesn't confront you with a fear. It's just like, no, I'm just making a list of words. Right. And then that turns into words that you're practice and then you use in a job interview.

But exactly. These are just words, right? These are just phrases. We can learn them. We can get there. So. Yeah. Wow.

Well, Lindsay, thank you so, so much. I'm going to say that we had an interview on your channel, so we're going to link to it and listen to it. And if you haven't listened ever to All Ears English. It's really one of the most popular and the, you know, best podcasts out there for English learners. So I'm going to link to that as well. You also have a YouTube channel?

We do, yes. So if you go to YouTube and just type in All Ears English, you will find us. We have a lot of yellow around All Ears English, so you can't miss us. We'd be happy to invite your listeners over to check it out for sure. It's been a pleasure chatting with you today, Hadar.

Absolutely. It's been a pleasure. We're going to link to your website as well so people can see your courses and all the beautiful content that you share. Thank you so, so much for your time and for your generosity.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Great to see you again.

Thank you. Great to see you. All right, that's it. I hope you enjoyed this interview as much as I did. I'm going to post all the links to Lindsay's website and podcast right in the description. And if you enjoyed this episode, please consider liking sharing and subscribe to the channel so that you can get updates whenever we release a new episode. Have a beautiful, beautiful rest of the day and I will see you next week in the next video.

Bye.