Episode 141: A Holistic Orthodontist’s Breastfeeding Journey with Dr. Catherine Murphy, DDS, MDS

Hi and welcome to episode 141 of the Untethered podcast. Today we have Dr. Catherine Murphy joining us and Catherine has Her history with dentistry runs deep. She started sterilizing instruments at age 9 and progressed to orthodontic and endodontic assistant at age 15. After her semester studying abroad in Australia, she decided to postpone dental school for a year. Her interest took her to Kenya to help educate the rural communities about HIV and AIDS prevention. This is when she saw firsthand the beautiful broad smiles that did not need an orthodontist. Following dental school. It was her desire to practice general dentistry for about five years and then specialize well. After two years of general, she was ready to focus on ortho. Soon after residency, she was seeing cases that were supposed to be rare. She wasn't getting the answers she needed in her standard continuing ed courses and a great colleague of hers challenged her to do more. She took her first myofunctional therapy course and was intrigued. Then she had her first child. He struggled to sleep and breastfeed. His breathing was loud and she was told that her concerns are because she was a geriatric mom and and worry too much that she should go home and enjoy her child. This is when she decided to delve into finding out the why her situation propelled her into creating her first collaborative care team. And since this experience, her life and her practice have been forever changed. Quick Disclaimer all information, content and material of this podcast are the opinions of the speakers and is for the informational purpose only and not intended to serve as a substitute for the consultation, diagnosis and or medical treatment of a qualified healthcare provider. Welcome to the Untethered Podcast. I am your host, Hallie Balkan. I'm a certified orofacial myologist, feeding specialist and mentor. This podcast is all about getting your questions answered and collaborating with colleagues to bring you the most up to date information in the orofacial myofunctional therapy, tethered oral tissue and airway space. I challenge you to keep an open mind and join my mission to get this information out to the masses. Let's get started. Well Katherine, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I'm really excited to chat with you and I'm excited to share your journey of how you came to creating this beautiful book that I have here.

Oh, thank you so much. I'm just thrilled to be talking with you.

So let's go into how you came to write a book about your breastfeeding struggle. I know you're an ORTHODONTIST and you had your own breastfeeding struggle, and so you have a changed perspective, maybe, like, after having gone through it as a mom. So will you tell us a little bit about that journey for you?

I would love to. So it was very unexpected. I had the founder of a local nonprofit, a dental nonprofit called South Shore Skipping Stones. And their whole platform is to help educate pregnant moms about preparing for their baby's oral health, their own oral health, et cetera. When Dr. Button asked me to present at her gathering of pregnant moms, I'm like, okay, why? She said, well, I think it'd be really important for you to share your breastfeeding struggle. I'm like, okay, but why me? And she said, well, you're a doctor, and it happened to you, and if it can happen to you, it can happen to anyone. And we need these moms to know that it doesn't. It doesn't matter who they are, what their background is. It can really just happen to anyone because it's just not known out there. And when she said it like that, it hit me in a way that, like, oh, wow, okay. So there was that part of me that said, oh, gosh, I'm gonna have to admit to everyone that, like, the guilt that I had that I thought, I should know this. I'm a dentist. I should have known about his tongue tie. But I'm like, okay. So once that part got through and I said, hey, my. My whole thing has shifted. Realizing that no one can know everything, and the key to optimal patient care is working with others and staying with your greatness and then working with someone that has another greatness. Preparing for that presentation got all kinds of things going in me. All kinds of emotions came up, and my first thought was actually, wow, I should share this in just a memoir kind of thing. And then that just didn't quite seem right. And so I got put back on the back burner. And last year, 2020, with the COVID chaos, I needed some kind of stress release, and writing just kind of started. And actually, the backbone for Dear Mama came when I was in bed. Typed it on the notes. Part of my iPhone while my second child that I was able to successfully nurse was sleeping. I was trying really hard not to wake her up because we were sharing the room. And then I. I came across on a Mommy Dennis in Mommy a Mommy Dennis Facebook group. Like I asked, okay, who. Who's published a book. I need some help. And it's actually the publisher, the Rodney Cave Press. Her sister's a Dentist, and her mom is a dentist. And so it's just been such a wonderful connection of then realizing how in dentistry, connecting all those things that we ran into, like hurdles and stuff, how it all goes back, and we actually knew a lot of these answers years ago. And going back also, just with any healthcare profession, realizing that that responsibility that some people put on us, but then we choose to take it on, that we should know all the answers really is very limiting and stifling. And the more we learn to work with others, the better everybody gets. The better we are as a practitioner, the better our patient care. So it's been a journey of me really being vulnerable and putting all that out there and realizing how much more every single day I can learn to be better as a mom and as a practitioner.

I mean, I love that. So I've been through a similar journey, and it was really interesting. It wasn't until I was actually talking to a more holistic sleep specialist, Taylor Kulik, who was on my podcast at one point, and I was talking to her. And I've shared openly my struggle with Lily and our journey and how breastfeeding. I was really stubborn, but it was very painful for 13 months, and she could never get over the first percentile. She was always on her own growth curve. And how as a new mom, looking at the app, when she's three days old, when you're home, and the pediatrician has marked her failure to thrive. And I'm like, failure to thrive? My child. What is this? What do you mean, failure to thrive? I'm a speech pathologist. I know what that means. My child doesn't have failure to thrive. But she had dropped too much weight in the hospital, and so then we were going for weight checks, and it was just the whole thing working with lactation, and nobody's looking in her mouth. And so we get 13 months through breastfeeding, and finally I'm like, she's a year. She can drink other, you know, other things out of other vessels. Like, I'm done. Like, I can't do it anymore. It's too painful. Like, I've. I've made it past the year mark. Like, we're good. And really, that wasn't my initial goal, but it was at that point. I'm like, this is as much as I can take. I think we've endured enough. And so she also. She also had a very sensitive belly, like, so trying to give her formula just to get her weight up. The night. First night we were home from the hospital, she was screaming and Crying. I was screaming. My mom was like, I don't know what to do for the two of you. And, I mean, because it may have been the milk proteins. Who knows? And so the dentist, or the dentist, the pediatrician said to me when I called in the morning, the nurse said, well, you know, Gerber, good start, has like, three milk proteins. Let's put her on, you know, Or Similac has three. Let's put her on. Gerber, good start. That only has one. Or whatever it was. I don't even remember because I refuse to use it. Picked it up, and then we donated that to somebody else. Because I was like, I am not giving my child this anymore. We are going to figure out how to make this work. And. And I was just stubborn. What I didn't realize and what I. Then it would hit me. And this was like, this past year that Taylor was on, so my daughter's already, like, five, going on six. When I realized this are the impact that it had on our relationship and our bonding, you know, I mean, I've always loved my child. She's the world to me. But to see the different bond that I had between my daughter, who was released at five days of Life and who had a very positive breastfeeding journey, versus what I experienced, you know, with my first one, I was, like, in. In tears on that podcast. Like, choked up. Like, holy cow. Like, I never even realized the psychological impact that it had on our relationship. And it's almost like now I'm trying to compensate and, like, build for, like, what I feel like we missed out on. And she doesn't know any differently. Like, she can't voice that. I mean, you know, like, she doesn't. Everything's fine for all intents and purposes. But for me as a mom to look back at that and go like, holy cow. I mean, and this is the stuff that nobody's asking about is stuff that's so easily dismissed. And we have all these mamas in their fourth trimester, some of which have postpartum depression or have postpartum anxiety and have just normal. I don't want to say normal, but not always related to the feeding issues. They're just dealing with anxiety or depression because of hormonal changes and their new way of living. And having this little human dependent on you 24, 7, and it's, you know, it's a lot. And nobody's talking about this, you know, I came home, diagnosed her at 24 months of age after my first, you know, myo course, and I was like, wow, like, if we had only known. I mean, obviously I know. I only know what I know, but I also took her to all the professionals and here we are. So, yeah, I mean, like that collaborative team effort and, you know, getting vulnerable and everything. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I feel like I have always been vulnerable. But this just got taken to a whole new level. I was like, I can't. I can't even put into words easily. And it's not. Usually, it's not hard for me to speak normally, but it's really hard for me to even talk about that because I carry such guilt over it, even though into some degree it's not my fault. Right. So it's a very interesting conversation.

May I offer some kind of solace with that? Yeah. Your daughter also knows that no matter what, you will fight for her. You are such an advocate for her. So, yes. You know, part of the reason why breastfeeding is so lovely, if you choose to do it, is that you get that bond that you get to share with your baby and so everything else stops. Right? You and your baby and that trust factor between you. I'm providing for my baby, for my child. But you provided for your child in a way that is going to stay with her forever. She knows that you will go up to bat and fight for her, that you will find the answers for her, and that is priceless. It is a tough, tough thing. But later on when she's older and she's a teenager and she's not able to be under your care as much, she will know, okay, I made a mistake. But I can go to mom because she will fight for me. She will make. She will help me make this better. Even though I don't know how. She trusts you so much more on that level because that has been something. Being able to share this book with my son and take him to the publishing house and show him has been the best part of all this. So that he can see that what we went through, may no one else ever have to go through it. But we survived it and he's doing so well. And to have him part of it so that he can feel that part in his heart of helping others. So I just love it and thank you for sharing this. It is hard, especially talking about relationships with children, because we're taught that, oh, it should just be magical.

Easy peasy magical. Everything should be great. Unicorns and rainbows. And then you have kids and you're like, who lied to. Who was the first person who lied to me?

Because they are supposed to test their caregivers. And there's so many things beyond just the fun. Beyond the fun mom.

No, you know, it's, it's funny. And thank you for that. Thank you. That's. I deeply feel it and receive it. And, you know, and she. I think my kids know that I am a major mama bear, that I will always go to bat for them. And, you know, and, and we talk about, you know, she's old enough now that we can have conversations about values and about things that she gets on a very different level than maybe when she was 4 or even 5. And, you know, so it's, it is really interesting. It's very cool to watch her grow and evolve as a six year old. And it's been a really, you know, she's in school for the first time because everything was shut down last year. And so it's been physical in person school, and just been very cool to watch her grow. So I know that she's not harmed, per se by, you know, past experiences at this point, but we also were very grateful to have an amazing team where we were able to intervene while she was still young and, you know, grow her palate. And she's actually back in Mayo right now to like, finish some things up and just, you know, establish a couple last, you know, healthy habits. And so it's, it's been really cool that I've been able to do this for her. And, you know, it makes me really excited as a mom and a practitioner and a business owner and everything all around, that I can provide these things for my children because I know that not everybody has access to that. And that's part of why, you know, the reason behind even starting this podcast two years, just over two years ago, was like, this information isn't out there. I went to listen to try and find it, even as a mom practitioner, and I'm like, why? Why isn't anybody talking about this? And so here we are, now we're talking about it. And that's been one of my admittedly most favorite things about this podcast is when I have parents reach out to me and ask me questions or ask me to connect them with a provider. And I'm like, that is. I don't think people realize how frequently I have people reach out. And I welcome it. I get DMs daily on Instagram, especially saying, hey, who do you know in this area? And it is my mission to connect them with somebody who I know can at least help them get started on their journey, because I might not be able to connect them with the ortho or the dentist or the ent, but if I can connect them with at least one provider who can help them with an initial eval, and then they hopefully have connected with others in the area, they can then be that stepping stone to the rest of the team. You know, that. That, like, lights me up and gives me chills and gets me so excited. Yes. This child is going to go to somebody who gets it, and, like, we are going to totally mama and this child, like, they're going to be on the right track if that's what they choose. And I'm super excited. So, anyways, it's definitely fueled a passion and a mission that's much greater than myself and my children.

Well, that's awesome, and thank you for doing that. Wow. It's only been two years. Wow. You've done an amazing amount of podcasts in two years and have had incredible people on here, sharing with others, and so. Wow.

Thank you. We launched it July 2019, and that was with, like, the mission to then roll out my feeding course and a MYO course at some point. And out of that was born the membership, or the MYO membership. And it was just like, things evolved as they needed to. And I just. I look back at it and I go, wow, how aligned things must have been for me, because we launched our first feeding course on March 16, 2020, as the world shut down. Like, the area that I was in literally shut down on that day. And everyone was, well, we have, like, no patience this week. We're not really sure what we're supposed to do with our time. So we have all this time. So they all joined me for the free training I did, and then a bunch of people enroll in the course, and I was like, well, this is exciting. I mean, hey, way to make lemonade out of lemons, right? Together. But I think it was really cool, too, because, like, we had dance parties and we were, like, all on Facebook, you know, and zoom. And I think it also brought people together in what seemed like a very scary, lonely time. And so it's something that I will never take for granted because I look back now at what we've been able to create and how many more, you know, children we're able to reach based on helping providers get this education and how many providers are feeling so fulfilled in the work that they're doing and going, wow, like, my eyes have been opened. I see things through a different lens. And, you know, they're looking at airway first, and they're looking in the mouth, and they're doing assessments differently than they ever did before. And then they also are collaborating with teams that they didn't know they needed to reach out to before until, like, they realized that we all have this, like, seat at the table. So it's been a very cool journey.

Well, I think what you mentioned with getting together and especially how your course started, when people were. They were isolated, we were quarantined. It really. It highlights why I have just flourished in this community. Because before, I've always been a CE junkie. I've loved learning. And, I mean, I just feel like that's part of going into any healthcare profession, because you can always be learning about something. But I would go to the class, I take my notes, and then I would leave class. Like, I never speak with the speaker. Like, you saw the speaker, like, in the hallways. They're like, oh, I get to see Bill Profit. And you try to take your picture. Whereas the first AAMs, if I set the right one, the Academy. American Academy of Myofunctional Sciences. Yes. In Chicago in 2017, I got to listen to Dr. Steven Lin, and then in the next lecture, he sat next to me, and I got to say, I'm like, okay, Steve, you got to talk to me more about this milk thing, because you tell me that milk is not healthy. I don't know. I'm open. But we got to talk some more. And then Dr. Roger Price came and talked with us. We all just mesh so well together because we got into this space because of something personal. It's either ourselves a family member or patient that we were trying so hard to get past a hurdle. And then we found the answer was another hurdle that another professional had. Because that was the amazing thing when I went to the myofunctional therapy course was like, wow. I was the only orthodontist there, but there were speech pathologists there, cranial sacral therapists, sleep dentists, general dentists, physical therapists. I'm like, wait, so we all have had this hurdle, but it's all in a different way. I loved it. I'm like, this is phenomenal. I left feeling like, wow, I think I have to go back to another four years of school. And that was while I was pregnant with my son. And that was part of the whole, like, oh, gosh, how did I not know that? But the course didn't really focus on infants, and my mindset went in there to focus on the problem I was having with my adolescent patients. So making that connection to oh, that's my baby. I see it in the pictures now. And that's why I'm like, okay, I'm going to show this picture to all these, like, pregnant mamas and show them that as a dentist, I didn't, I didn't see it because I didn't know. And I'm not trained. General dentists aren't really trained with infants. I didn't get trained to do a lap to lap in school. It's a hard thing to do. It's hard to get parents to want to bring their infant to a dental school or they have to wait and their check in is much longer than private practice. And then in orthodontics, even though we are the growth and development like specialists, we don't then look at babies. We learn the growth and development from a didactic point of view and then we learn phase one. But in residency, it's hard to actually get phase one patients in because pediatric residency is also needing early orthodontic treatment as well. It's just harder to get younger patients because the mindset is, let's wait till they're 12. I'm very fortunate that my father always loved phase one. He talked to me about reverse swallows, but we would refer to ents. And I am like, well, looking back, the ents never got back to us about the reverse swallow ever. And I'm like, why didn't we refer to speech? So that's actually how things kind of got together, was a speech pathologist had reached out to me and I was referring to speech. But they would go to school, and when I learned that there were so little one on one time in school, school speech care, I'm like, oh, gosh, well, that's gotta be hard for that therapist.

Yeah, they follow like an academic model too in their treatment usually. So it's like not myo. It's. Let's work on, you know, drilling the sound. So it's. Yeah, it's, it's, it's tricky. It's tough for school based. I started in the schools for a couple years and then. Not for me. I'm out. My contract's over. Bye.

Well, and it's hard because you're dealing with so many, so many different ages and classes and you have time restrictions. Yes. So when pathologist Tracy Biggs reached out to me, I called her. I'm like, do you do myo? Are you interested in myo? I need mild. And then she's. She got trained in myofunctional therapy shortly after. And I was like, oh, thank goodness. This is just beautiful.

Somebody I need to send my patients somewhere. Like, okay, where can I send them? That's amazing, though, because that was really.

That was the sticking point was I would see these tongue thrusts. And that's what got me, like, kind of the shift before my son, I was seeing these tongue thrusts. And in dentistry, and maybe, I don't know in speech pathology, if this does it as well, but we're kind of trained to first look at what we might be doing to be causing this. I looked through. I'm like, oh, gosh. Well, I'm seeing it in class ones, class twos, class threes, and they have different mechanics. I don't think it's the mechanics, because how could I be doing this in all three different classifications and still seeing these tongue thrusts? And I met Dr. Yulia Pinskaya, who's an orthodontist, Indianapolis, and she put me into such a spot that I am forever thankful for her very bluntness and boldness. But she said, well, Katherine, you're just not doing enough for your phase one. I'm like, what? Like, I love phase one. Other, they don't like to see kids, like, I don't think you get it. And she's like, no, you're just. You're not doing enough. Like, no, I do expanders. I do protection face masks. Yeah, but you're not asking why. Like, yeah, well, they have cricket teen. And so that was like a Thursday or Friday when I was back in the office. I emailed her. And I remember getting this email, and I'm like, why a course in Australia, Dr.

Hang.

What? And then another $10,000 for this. I'm like, I'm an ortho. Like, I know how to do this. So I said, okay, that's a lot of stuff. How about I just reach out and figure out this tongue thrust thing? And then that's where I took the myofunctional therapy course.

I love it. I love it. I mean, and I think that it's so. It's so interesting because, you know, and people. Listeners have heard me talk about this. They don't teach us this in grad school. They say they're going to pull it into the grad programs that I've heard in 2022. But I haven't seen any formal written, like, regulations around that, so I'll believe it when I see it. And, you know, to this point, I think more individuals are going and guest speaking, you know, for lectures, which I think is still a great place to start. Because they need to be hearing this information. But I received none of it. I was even told that, like, oral motor was a dirty word. Like, we don't talk about that. There's. Yeah, I mean, it was like, here's the split research. Here's the 50% of research for it, here's the 50% of research against it. And our stance is kind of like, we don't really do that. And I'm like, this is a research university that is well known for its graduate program, and here we are. Okay, what I mean, and I just didn't really know. But also, when you tell me no or tell me not to believe something, it actually makes me want to do the opposite. That's just who I am as a human. So that's where I kind of was like, I need to see this firsthand for myself. Like, I'm gonna have to do it first to know that it doesn't actually work. Like, I'm not just gonna take your word for it. And then when I came out of school and I went right into the school, school setting, I was told that I couldn't do, like, feeding therapy with certain kids. But then I had kids who are, you know, wheelchair ridden. They had full time nursing with them, very, you know, lower functioning, just very significant diagnoses. And I was supposed to feed them. I'm like, I have no training in this and you want me to work with these medically complex children? Is this safe? Like, I. So that threw me into pediatric feeding because I was like, well, I'm just going to have to learn on my own dying because I ethically don't feel like I can treat these children or even get close to them and work on their goals without proper training. And so that's where we really knee deep into the space. And then I learned about the wonderful world of oral motor and, you know, but still, even at that point, nobody was talking about orofacial myology. Nobody was talking about nasal breathing and oral and correct oral rest posture. Nobody was talking about, like, you know, okay, I understood correct bolus prep. I understood correct swallow. I understood more about the later stages, honestly, of swallowing in the pharyngeal phase, because that's what they were teaching the speech pathologists. It wasn't as much the oral phase. And so when I stepped into the Maya world and I was like, holy cow, like 5,000 bells just started dinging. Like, I just. All these lights, bright lights, lit up and my brain was like, on fire. I was like, this is the missing piece. Like, I don't even know what to do with myself right now. And that wasn't until 2017 I was actually pregnant with my second child. When I took that, I moved it up because I found out I was pregnant with her. I was like, yeah, I don't really want to drive to New Jersey when I'm like seven pregnant. That's not going to be fun to sit in a four day class, like, let's do this now. And so I flew to Chicago and like, the rest is history. But it was definitely a transition for me to go from what I was doing to. I think it was an easy transition because of my background, but I also feel like just so much like whole, like my eyes, like we say my, my eyes were on and I was just like, different lens. So cool. So like, for you, what was the most difficult aspect from making that shift, you know, from going from what you knew to be true to stepping into a more holistic space?

Oh, well, the short answer is that how I used to treat patients used to be so much more simple. And that's probably how you look at your patients now too. It's so much more complex because you look at so many different factors. So I went from kind of having systems where then you take those systems and kind of throw them out and then you just have a whole bunch of gray. And then being the person in the area, I was really the first person talking about this in my area, even though we're near Chicago, were outside of Chicago enough that it's just a different mindset sometimes. And many of the patients that would see me are patients that then wouldn't want to be going up to Chicago. Right. So that wasn't that they didn't have that access to like, Dr. Kevin Boyd, who's right. He's close to me, but far enough away that it didn't spill over. Right. To be the person to be talking about this and then presenting the treatment plan was a lot for parents.

Right.

Because what I learned through all of this, through my, my own, my own health journey, when I found things out, my son's health journey and then these patients, I'm like, wow. At first I'm like, oh, all the caregivers will love this. And be like, oh, I was wondering about their sleep and now I got this answer. Oh, I was wondering about their messy eating. Now I have the answer. I was wondering why they're still wetting the bed at night and they're nine. I've got the answer. In reality, the same thing that we discussed earlier then that thought of going through and being like, oh, gosh, why didn't someone else see this? Why is now this person? Why is Dr. Murphy the first person to mention this to me? I've been going to this person I've trusted all this time, and now someone new says that my kids problem could be fixed if I get them into early orthodontic treatment. And so that was really like, wow.

I get that all the time. Why aren't other people talking about this? Why are you the first person to tell me this? Like, well, if nine people are saying this and you're the one person saying that, like, why should I listen to you? You know? And it's like, okay, well, baby steps. Let's take some bits and pieces out of this.

Yeah, that's hard. And I, I have compassion for those parents that were like, no, like, I want to believe this, but I also don't because then I have to give up the thought that the practitioners I took them to would have all the answers. But that's part of the thing, is that none of us can have all the answers. And we also have to be open and put ourselves into a place to accept those changes. Because I look back and maybe you do this too, because we were talking before the podcast about our struggle in different ways of studying and being creative. I'm like, wow, someone had mentioned different things to me. I still have my book that I loved. I think I was nine years old. It was about holistic health. It had like, Rolfe and it had cranial sacral therapy and all these great things that now I'm like, all into. And why did I, why, why wasn't I open to that? That's because I didn't have, I didn't have that community. I didn't have someone else telling me, no, this is, this is good. Like, you'll see good results with it. So that's part of actually then why my whole, like, aspect of my career has changed and putting it into book form and coming out with other books and presenting, because talking one on one, I love it, but it's challenging. Making a community out there so that others can share is really what's going to help other, other caregivers, other moms that have those doubts realize that, oh my gosh, I'm not the only one.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so like, what are, who are some of these other providers that you're commonly working with? I know you've mentioned a couple you've mentioned maybe ent. You mentioned speech pathologist or orofacial myologist, who are you commonly referring to?

So myofunctional therapy is necessary before any orthodontic treatment, in my opinion, because with the work I do, they can see, they can see the changes, right? With myofunctional therapy, that's where you come in and you get to help them change their view. But it takes a little bit more to change their. I mean, they see their child all the time and they now get to look at when their child is eating in a different way. It takes a little bit longer to change that. Messy eating. I can move things kind of fast, right? So I've learned that myofunctional therapy has to be first for my cases because they need to get those patterns down. They need to understand what facial harmony really is. So myofunctional therapy, whether that's whatever background, I love all the different aspects of those that have the speech pathology background, the dental hygiene background, etc. I love it. And I love when they then work together. And then I really, I stress the need to focus on the muscles. Myofunctional therapy, I focus on the bones, the teeth, and then the nerves. So either cranial signal therapy or chiropractic care, those are the three things. The three go to is like, hey, we can do this with these three if you'd like. Others, I mean, anywhere from pediatric acupuncture, when we need to get the allergist on board, the ents, all of that as well. But let's first get those three basic foundations worked on and then work from there.

I love how you just put that. That is phenomenal. The, the whole, like, okay, you need your soft tissue provider, you need your hard tissue provider, and you need your nervous system provider. Like, we need to address all three and you so beautifully packaged that I mean, obviously there's so many other providers out there who may be necessary or who may be part of the team. But I think that like triangle of like, at minimum, like, we need this. I just love that we, you know, in my practice, we often will get kids started in myo and then we'll go, hey, you know, there's definitely a malocclusion at play here. We're not diagnosing anything. Let's, let's pull in our, you know, our airway centric dental colleagues. And they'll often start with, you know, expansion or whatever, you know, system they're going into. And our appliance. Not necessarily system, but appliance. And with the appliance therapy, sometimes we'll hit pause Just to like get the kid adjust, you know, used to it, but also sometimes to actually get some more space for the tongue because we sometimes hit that wall where there just isn't enough space and we can't really expect the tongue to really sit up there. But then within several months, usually we have enough growth where it's not the full growth, but it's enough. Then continue the myo. And so, you know, everyone's always like, you pause myo. We're like, well, it's really patient based, not for every patient, but sometimes, yes, because sometimes there really just physically isn't enough room for that tongue. And so I love that there's this like beautiful dance between the therapeutic interventions and like how we can all work together. But through it all we need to be addressing the nervous system. Right? Because I, you know, I just was recording this a couple weeks ago in my course and really trying to explain to these, these therapists who are going to take my MYO course whether it's, you know, a dental hygienist or it's an SLP or it's an OT or it's, you know, even a dentist or an ortho or somebody coming in and just taking it for knowledge. You know, the whole concept of like going from fight or flight with our, you know, nervous system to our, you know, to rest and digest and how like we need to be in the parasympathetic and not living in a sympathetic. And how we need, you know, and so giving them some verbiage and some images and just some, you know, some fun phrases to kind of attack, like latch onto. I was like, that was one of the ones that I learned that really stuck with me and it allowed me to then start researching and going down the rabbit hole of like, oh, wow, our nervous system is really important. Like, you know, your three musts. Like one is like our nerves. We have these cranial nerves and we have nerves throughout our body and we really need to address them.

I wanted, when we look back, everything that we're trying to do is actually so simple. Like I talk about how everything goes back to breathing, sleeping and eating. If we can't breathe, nothing else matters. And then there's three aspects of us, like I said, bones, muscles, nerves. And we often discredit our breathing. Like, ah, you're, you're alive so you're breathing and while you're functioning. So I mean, what could possibly be wrong with your nervous system except that it regulates everything? So we discredit sometimes the most important things, which is Just something that we get to reset our mindset about it. Which is part of why I also, I really am a proponent of self care, especially for moms. That's why I came up with the Take 3 for Me movement is because our lives can be so busy and if we just change our mindset for it doesn't have to be the full three minutes, but we do a gentle movement and then we do. A lot of times it's face yoga. Because when I was working with the acupuncturist Bri, and I'm like, so how can we help mom see that a lot of myo will actually make you look younger if you do it? And then maybe they will do the Maya with their kids. So we put that together where we do a gentle movement and then we do our mindset reset, where we actually look at ourselves and say what we are proud of. I mean, how often you say what we were proud of for your kids, but something that you are proud of for yourself, what you are thankful for and your intention. And then we rounded out with three breaths, which now I just ask for people to just pay attention to their breath. Because if you're breathing up here, okay, you're stressed. So just realize that what can you do to kind of calm that stress? Or if you are breathing nice and into your diaphragm, then take that moment and just really enjoy that you're alive. Enjoy whatever's closest to you. Put something pretty in front of you, nourish yourself through your breath and then go back to your day. Because we can get through anything if we can reset ourselves to approach it in a different way.

Yeah, I love that it's so important as a working mom who is like operating two different businesses and who doesn't get enough sleep, admittedly, that is one of my sleep hygiene is definitely one of my goals that I am currently trying to work back into my daily life. I shouldn't say trying that I am working back into my daily life. There is that and there is also I have a deviated septum. I have likely enlarged turbinates. So I am also, since we recently moved, I'm trying to find a provider down here and really ask around as to who to go to because I know that I at least need a turbinate reduction. So, you know, there's things that I need to still do for myself on my own journey. I have my max list turned in on one side. So even though I've had adult expansion, I've done all the things, you know, I'M like, I'm not done yet either. And I mean, some adults would choose to be done, but I'm like, I know too much. So we're still, we're still on our journey over here. But I think that's, you know, it's really cool. I love how you take what appears to be such a complex topic for so many and you really simplify it down into like, breathing, eating, sleep, and, you know, hard tissue, soft tissue, nerves, like.

Yes.

And if we can create these frameworks and then your take three for me, you know, the take three for me, like that. I just, I love these types of things because they're doable, they're feasible, they're. They're easily understood. It's not, it's taking sometimes what feels very heavy and complex and making it so simple that we can actually implement it and do it. And I think there needs to be more of that. We need to, you know, when we brain dump all this information on a patient sitting in front of us, hearing it for the first time, they understand maybe like half of it, Remember a third of that. And then they walk away and we're like, why didn't they do what we recommended? Well, I mean, yeah, we really. So that's, that's actually like, I've always, like, done things in threes too, where I, like, I never give more than three pieces of information up front. You know, I will put things in a report and then review with them later. But it's like, it's got to be doable. And so, And I know you get that and it's very clear with your take three for me. I'm like, I love that, like, I need to start doing. But I have a question for you, because you mentioned earlier, so you were talking about your dad and how your father, you know, is a big. He. He was a big proponent in early intervention too. Is that right? Or phase one orthodontics. You said, is he in this space with you or is he, you know, or where, where is he thought process wise? Is he holistic? Is he, you know.

Well, he is currently 85 years old, so he's on his road to retirement. But he, you know, he's been doing this for so long and his father was a general dentist. So it's just in, you know, that's part of his culture, his life. So I realized for the first time that he wasn't. He was interested in what I say because we have different practices, but we're in the same office. And he would listen and he's open to things, but it's hard. It's, you know, it's hard to change certain things, especially after certain time. Yeah. Well, then let me show you though this book. And I know for on the podcast you can't hear it, so I see it. So I found this in his bookshelf. Myofunctional Therapy in Dental Practice. Abnormal Swallowing Habits, Diagnosis, Treatment. A Course of Study for the Dental Practitioner and Speech Pathologist by Daniel Garlingier. And this was in 1971.

Yeah, for 115 years. I realized I was recently creating my course and I went, I like took a deep dive into the history and was like, you guys, we've had these exercises available to us for 115 years. This is not new. Why are we treating like this is like this new thing that's never been discussed, researched, or put into practice. And I did find out why this has happened and how it all like, has unrolled over the past 115 years. A lot of shifts in like the 40s and the 50s and the 60s and, you know, even beyond that. But it's, that's so cool that you were able to locate that textbook on his, on his shelf. What did he, did you like say, hey, dad, like, look at this text? Like, did he have any reaction?

He's like, oh, okay. So I mean, and I look back through and McNamara used to give beautiful symposiums. McNamara with Ents and everything I have to look back through, but I'm like, wow. And was a big proponent of looking at the swallowing. And things kind of shifted with McNamara a little bit. He was still, he's still phase one, but it's. Anyway, so it's just interesting that his mind was open to that. And then when he attended my lectures in Las Vegas for the ADA Smile Con in October, he's like, wow, okay. And it showed me, like, if we just get someone into the environment they're used to, like, he's used to going to conferences and hearing it. He's not used to hearing it from his daughter. Right.

He needs to hear from somebody else who's not like in the practice. Family member. Yeah. Or hear you talking to other providers about it. Not just having a one on one conversation.

Right. When he saw me up on a stage, he's like, oh, okay, well, this is a course and I'm getting CE for this. And this is at the American Dental association and you're speaking. Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take notes. So it was, it was very enlightening and Very sweet.

That's so cool. I mean, it's very cool, though, that it had to. I mean, he's in the same profession, so to have him, like, sitting in your CE course when, like, I'm sure he's been so influential on your practice and your life and how you even the space in the first place, I mean, it's like, it kind of comes full circle, but, like, very, very cool. I mean, and it's obviously at 85, if he's, you know, headed towards retirement, it's one of those things where it's fair to not expect that someone's going to throw themselves into an entire new way of practicing and doing and being and shifting all the things. But it's really cool that he was at least able to attend that and hear what you're teaching and kind of where hopefully this is all heading in the near future. You know, we have a lot of work to do, but that's very cool.

Thank you.

So do we have any more books or anything on the horizon or are you an ongoing repeat author? I mean, I've got Dear Mama here, and I just have to tell everybody because we put this up on YouTube also. This book is like a sensory experience. It is so smooth. And when I first opened it up, I was like, first of all, it's beautifully done. It just so beautiful. The images are lovely. And, you know, the COVID and even the back and, you know, you. You sent me this little pillow over here, which I freaking love. Like, the front of it has, you know, everything from finding out you're pregnant to being pregnant to having the baby. And then in the back, it's, you know, which you can see over there is the image of like, mom and like, you know, toddler toddling over to mama. And it's like, comes full circle. And so I think it's really, really cool that you. That you've chosen to share your journey and everybody needs this book because it's just really fun to feel. But also the message inside is incredible. And I really, I think it's. It's a great book to put out in a waiting room for any parent who's going for an evaluation, who's going, whether it's a dentist office or an SLP or OT or, you know, it's an ENT office where they may be doing releases or coming for feeding issues, airway issues. I mean, really, any provider who is. Who's, you know, Kairos cst. Like, anybody who is working with moms and infants, who. Or caregivers. I should Say, and infants. I know it's a breastfeeding journey, but still there is, you know, it's just an incredible story. I think that everybody needs to read and hear and understand because I think that while so many of our caregivers that surround us are supportive of our journeys, like, they. They don't get it firsthand and they can hear what we share. But then to read it in a book like this, which is a very, like, quick, easy read for them, it's like, like, you know, like we were talking about hearing something from someone else's viewpoint that may relate to, like, what somebody, you know is going through is just so powerful. And I, like, read this book and I was like, okay, I'm going through all the feels like this brings me back. This is so. I was like, oh, I love this. So thank you for this book.

And, oh, thank you. Well, actually, so my. My goal, like, my. My wish, I guess I wish is to actually have this book available for any mom that has taken her child in for a frenectomy, for her to take it home. Because it's that healing process. It's when you get that when you get the baby home and you're trying to do the exercises, you're exhausted because of the anxiety. I mean, even with my second baby, okay, even with my second baby, I knew and she was three days old and got it, there was still that, like, okay, that whole revving up of the fight or flight part of me, right? Of like, okay, I gotta get this, you know, this is the right thing to do. We got this next we got chiropractor appointment right after, it's that. Then when you're home that first night when things are still okay, things still aren't perfect yet. You got to get through that healing. And that doubt, that doubt comes in of, did I do the right thing? Did I do the right thing for another person that doesn't have a voice? And really, whether or not this is like your tenth child or your first child, you test your mother, like, your maternal intuition each time. And the book, my main mission is that our gut reactions, our intuition will guide us if we let it. And I want this to be that virtual hug to that mom who's like, okay, now I have someone telling me, oh, maybe that was a bad idea. Or, oh, gosh, they don't like the stretches, don't do that. Or, oh, look, look at that heal. I don't know if that's healing. And no, no, no, I went through this. I saw the pictures. I know it's supposed to look like this and have this, like, hug here. Like, you're not alone. You followed what your intuition told you. You did the right thing. Be patient. It takes healing. And your baby can do hard things too. It's easier now when they're a baby than later. And what you're doing is helping them. I'm sure you've gotten those calls, those texts, like, ah, maybe I just don't need to do those stretches or maybe I should just give up. And it's usually their love.

Yeah, I mean, I get DMs, I get texts from even colleagues, people who are in this space. And it's almost like when you know what we know, it's completely, like, overwhelming because we know too much. And so then not only do you go through questioning it, but then you also go through, like, did I overdiagnose my child? Like, was it really a problem? And you're like, discounting and almost like gaslighting yourself into starting to believe that this problem didn't exist. And it's like, no, the problem is there's. We've all acknowledged that it existed. And you are doing what you feel right now is the best for your child. And this is okay, and we're here to support you. But it's really, you know, I've seen it too now, you know, at teaching and Feed the peas. We. I teach on the tethered oral tissue and the myofunctional therapy modules as it applies to birth through five, because nobody's talking about that in feeding courses. They're really focused on other feeding areas or, you know, myo for four plus. And so what I wanted to really bring awareness to was this is not an overnight fix, like, for me with my second child. We released her at day five and our breastfeeding did immediately improve, but that is not the norm. Like, that does not always happen. I did have to take her to like a year's worth of pt and that was actually not really working for her. And it wasn't until I found like, the cranial sacral therapist and the osteopath that, like, everything just clicked in. Just a number of like a couple sessions. And all of a sudden she was crawling after she started walking and was like, no longer sweating, like, through her clothes in her car seat and like, just all these different things that, like Chinese medicine, cst, osteopathic work really helped her. And that opened up my eyes as a professional who was already in this space, but who also used to question, like, you know, we Refer these parents to all these different practitioners. Like, is it necessary? Do they really need it? And then as a mom, I was like, holy cow, like, why didn't we do this nine months ago? You know? But again, I go back to all of these professionals now who are having their own children and that's sometimes why they've taken my course and they're like, I just want to know how to help my infant. Or I want to know how to help, you know, my child who struggles with X, Y and Z. And to see them kind of go through the same internal struggle. Like, just because we have the information does not always make it easier. And they have now come out on the other side and they've gone like, wow, I'm sorry for all the dms. Like, I didn't realize that it was going to take three months to like fully habilitate feeding or that it was going to take, you know, like, I know that we've been working on this like day in and day out and I'm like, yes, because that's how the human body works and the older your child is, the longer it may take. It's not an overnight fix. And that's why so many people then come out and say, oh, tethodural tissue releases don't work well. Yeah, if you do them as a like single handed procedure with no surrounding supportive therapeutic interventions, the chances of it working are pretty slim. You might get lucky, but most often there's other dysfunction going on that we need to address. So, you know, surrounding the reason that we needed that release in the first place. So, yeah, it's definitely become a big passion project of mine. But I think that it is really, it's really interesting because to work with moms, but then also to work with professionals and then the professional moms like up a whole bunch of doors and it's, but it's really also, it's taught me a lot and I'm very grateful and thankful for it because I think it really then helps us know also how to best approach, you know, these, these babies and working with these infant mom dyads. Because it's both of them. It's not just a single patient. We've got two people to consider and sometimes more so. So anyway, so yeah, I go back to this book. Like, I just, I love this and I think the mission behind it is amazing. The story is amazing. So thank you. Thank you.

Well, thank you. The next one, the next one is actually being illustrated by Ira as well. And it's about kind of that Journey of when. When it was missed as an infant. And then it's in a toddler like, oh, how does that toddler feel going through it? And then Bree and I are working on a take away from me journal. And so that should be out. Both those should be out next year. But as we discussed when you shared with me about your books, there's all kinds of surprises when it comes to publishing. And so that's may yours go smoothly and may my mind go smoother than.

This first one, images for book two and book three back that we've been waiting months for. But you know, it's fine. We'll get there. Yes, may it all go smoothly. I think that they're phenomenal resources and it's a really nice, gentle approach, I think, to the topic and to really helping moms as the patients in the dyad connect to what they're experiencing, what they may be about to go through, what they've gone through. I'm excited for the next one because that sounds like my first child, really. I identified and released at 24 months and I did it all wrong the first go around. So I learned a lot from her.

All those firstborns, they get so much of our time, but they also. We get to learn a lot from them.

So much. Well, this has been amazing. Is there anything that we didn't cover that you want to share with us before we wrap up?

I don't think so. You'll have the websites for the book. It's drkatherinemurphy.com There is a special for those that are healthcare practitioners that want to order in bulk so they can provide that for their patients. And if, if wanted, like I, I.

Love, I love the illustrations.

Ira is just a wonderful. She was breastfeeding her second child while she was illustrating the book. I want to create more fun things for it. So we'll see if people ask for more things. I would love to because I just, I too find. Find this cover just so relatable. And when I could, when I saw her, when I. We would have sessions where I would say, okay, so in my vision, like this is my vision, but I can't draw with a darn. So can you. Can you do that? Especially the one where the mom is on the bed. I'm like, I want you to represent how I felt when I'm like trying in between, like that hour of sleep that you would sleep at a time. Can you show how messy I would be? My. I wanted hairy legs. I wanted mismatched socks and diaper on the bed. And to see her put that, I'm like, oh, she put my thought into a picture and I'm like, oh, I think who hasn't gone through that? Like, oh my gosh, everything's a mess. But I have to do this, whatever the this is right now. And for me it was researching this. Like I got, I have to do this. So I would love to create more products to go with it to help, to just help create that community. But at this point, I just don't know what people want. So let me know. I love feedback. There's a place on the website to send me emails. I love feedback. I'd love, you know, I would actually love your mom to mom advice. So I'd love to talk to you about. I, I will be switching that up on the website, the mom to mom section. The only bad part is it has to be 35 words or less, which can be tough. But I'd love to feature you on that because you know, with, with your background that mom to mom advice means so much. And it's not not advice, it's more wisdom of, hey, like we can, we can get through this. Yeah.

Well, I love this. And we will definitely link all of the links and you know, make sure that everybody can find you at Dr. You know, I know it's drkatherinemurthy.com and then once they're on the website, they'll be able to find everything they need. So thank you. This has been phenomenal. I appreciate your time. I appreciate the book and the pillow and I can't wait for the next book to come out. It's so exciting.

Thank you so much. I appreciate. It's just been lovely to get to know you.

You too. Thanks for listening to this podcast. If you want to hear more of these Myo Tots, Airway and feeding related episodes, be sure to leave a review on Apple podcasts or pledge a small amount on patreon.com forward/the untethered podcast. If you found value, others you know in this space will too. So be sure to share this episode on your social media platforms and join us over on Facebook on my Facebook page at Hallie Balkan Biz, on Instagram at Alibulkin and you can head over to theuntetheredpodcast.com to grab a copy of the show Notes where you can also subscribe to be kept up to date on the latest podcast episodes.