Episode 231: Gentle Healing with Craniosacral Therapy with Courtney Whitaker LMT, CST

Hi and welcome to episode 231 of the Untethered Podcast. Today we have Courtney Whitaker joining us. Courtney is a licensed massage therapist and craniosacral therapist whose work helps clients return to a state of deep comfort in their bodies. Based in Norfolk, Virginia, Courtney's journey in the healing earth began in 2015 with Gabrielle Gerard Jenks, Yoga Teacher Training. Courtney graduated from the Case Riley School of Massage in 2019. Soon after, she began her training in cranial sacral therapy, studying traumatic brain injury through her clinical hours and graduated in early 2023. Inspired by her own healing through yoga, breath work and meditation, Courtney began her career to help open the same doors of healing to others. Quick Disclaimer all information, content and material of this podcast are the opinions of the speakers and is for the informational purpose only and not intended to serve as a substitute for the consultation, diagnosis and or medical treatment of a qualified healthcare provider. Welcome to the Untethered Podcast. I am your host, Holly Balkan. I'm a certified myofunctional therapist, feeding specialist, podcaster, business owner and mentor. This podcast is all about getting your questions answered and collaborating with colleagues to bring you the most up to date information in the orofacial myofunctional therapy, airway tether, dural tissue and pediatric feeding therapy space. If you're new here, I challenge you to keep an open mind and join my mission to spread this message far and wide. If you've been around since June 2019, thanks for being a loyal listener. As we jump into today's episode, remember to listen with correct oral rest, posture, tongue up, lips closed, teeth apart, breathe through your nose. Let's get started.

Foreign.

Welcome to the podcast today.

Thank you so much.

I am excited to dive in. I know we were chatting a little bit before recording and you know, talking about how I really wanted to have more providers on here that work in different, you know, types of body work spaces. Right. So craniosacral and so on and so forth. And so I'm really excited to have this chat with you because I'm learning more about these, these areas of specialty. And you know, before we jump in, I want to know like, is there a backstory? Is there something that kind of led you down this path that you landed into what you're doing today?

Sure, yeah. So I guess for me my route in was really through yoga. So I started practicing and got really passionate about that and was really appreciating the way that I was feeling with that and learning a lot more about my body and making Some more connections. And you know, like many people that end up in my field, I ran into some health issues and all of a sudden it just kind of redirected my life. And I was working in breweries and bars and restaurants for a long time. I had background in art history and I just kind of kept running to dead ends. And then so I was kind of thinking about what I wanted to do and where I wanted to go with things. And I felt really passionate about wanting to help people feel more comfortable in their bodies. And that led me into. And I was trying to think about ways to do that as a career. Right. And so that led me into massage therapy. And while I was in massage school, I learned about craniosacral therapy and I learned about working with infants with it. And I was just amazed at the idea of especially mostly I was reading John Upledger's work, although I haven't done any of his trainings. I was just amazed at the impact that these people are making with this therapy was so little intervention. I was amazed at the idea of working with babies. I spent so much time as a massage therapist working with adults and helping them peel back layers of tension in their body and patterns. And I just thought like, what an amazing idea to start at the beginning, right? To get a good start rather than having to like work our way back. And I've just been following what I've been interested in and what I love and trying to find balance, right. It's a big part of things. So it's a big part of work. Working with your body too is you have to find balance to keep moving, you know?

Yeah, yeah, no, I love that. And it's, it's something that I talk, I also do some like business coaching on the side. I talk to a lot of like my coaching clients about like, you know, everyone kind of promotes this whole like work life balance concept. And you know, I think it's, it's become more, more of a discussion these days. And I think it was, you know, 10 years ago, even five years ago. And so it's, it's, there's, I know there's different practices people do to help engage in better self care and really just kind of listening to your body. I think a lot of it comes down for me at least to like kind of like tuning in and being like, hey, like what, what can I do today? What do I need today? And like where do I exist in this space today? Like, you know, because it's, it's different every single day. So I love that. I really love that. And yeah, and so do you work with. I know you work with both, you know, babies and adults. Are you working across the lifespan or like with other children, you know, older kids, or is it mostly like babies and adults?

Right now it's mostly babies and adults. I do have some experience with. I've worked with a few five and six year olds. There's an 11 year old I recently worked with who's starting to go through some, you know, the different kinds of dental procedures and orthodontics are kind of in the future and that's something I'm interested in exploring. I just have less experience with that. So mostly right now it's adults and babies. It's an interesting. And the lifespan.

Yeah, well, and I love it because you had mentioned, like with the infants, it's like, why not start working with them early on and kind of set them up for life, right. Rather than like, you know, but then at the same time you're working on the other end of the spectrum with the adults where you're like having to really, you see, I think really what's cool though, because I've also done like myofunctional therapy with, you know, with pediatrics and then feeding therapy with infants and toddlers and then Maya with adults. And it's like, you see, see the progression of like that snowball effect and all the compensations that are built and the impact on the entire body and being as you go through life. And it's always so interesting when people are like, well, I'm fine. I turned out fine. I'm like, but, but did, did you. I mean, all these signs and symptoms you just listed, I mean, not, I'm not saying you're not fine, but like, let's also recognize that these signs and symptoms that have snowballed are not like, you don't have to be walking around with all that every day.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I mean, I will also say that I'm learning so much through working with babies. And especially what I'm learning about just that early development is just blowing my mind. It's totally changing my perspective on adults too. And, you know, I'm starting to see those connections. Right. And you're right, like, a lot of people walk around carrying so much tension and they just have no idea. Like, I had a client even just yesterday and we did an integrated session. So that's where I was combining craniosacral therapy and massage therapy. And afterwards she said that's the most relaxed. Her body's Ever felt. Right. Interesting use of an age where like her children are adults now too. And I was like, wow, it's the most relaxed you remember your body feeling. We just forget what it feels like to feel relaxed and good and connected and grounded. And that's really what drew me in here is like not even realizing the pain and tension I was carrying. Not even realizing all of the other baggage that my body was holding on to. And it's amazing to explore different levels of sensation and being in your physical body. You know, we live in such a, like, mind over matter world, right? But when we live in that construct, then we don't live in our bodies. And our bodies are the primary vehicle through which we experience the world, you know, 100%.

100%. And it's, it even kind of takes that conversation too, of like trying to balance everything, to even be able to recognize this in oneself. Right. You know what I started to say before I didn't finish my thought. But like, when I talk to those that I coach, I often talk about how, you know, everyone kind of talks about balance. And I'm like, like, let's look at, let's. Let's change that B word to boundaries. Because I feel like when we have to like set boundaries in life, like, it, you know, it changes the conversation. Like, what are you available for today? Like, what can you, you know. And I saw somebody share something last night that was really cool that I was like, oh, I like that. And it was something like this woman was invited to speak at some conference or some, you know, for something. And her response was basically like, I have what I have on my plate right now is what I want on my plate. Or is something along the lines of like, oh, I'm not, not that I'm too busy because everyone comes to me and say, oh, you must be so busy. And I'm like, I guess I give that, that off that I'm really busy because I'm running a lot of businesses. I'm like, but some days I'm not busy or some days, like, I'm just, you know, not telling the world what I'm doing. And you know, and so people just kind of assume I'm always busy. And it's not even that. It's more like, no, I'm. I'm tuning into, like, what boundaries do I need to put up today or set today or, you know, put ahead for next week? And so anyways, it was kind of normalizing that conversation of like, let's all normalize, not overdoing. Things all the time and allowing ourselves the space to even tune into our bodies and tune into our own personal needs. And so I just, I love this conversation because I think that it's so important these days to one, have this conversation. But two, I think, like you said, there are some people who have no idea what it feels like to relax or to like, in my world, to nasal breathe like they have. You know, I had a nasal surgery a little over a year ago and I had no idea, even being in the specialty, that I really was not nasal breathing well out of the left side of my nose because the back part of my, like, septum was so crooked. And I was like, huh, this is when I've had like adult patients say to me, wow, I didn't know what I like, they really didn't know what they were missing out on until they knew what they were missing out on. And so anyways, I just, I think it's such a fascinating conversation. I love, like, all that is happening around this, this topic.

Absolutely. Yeah. I like what you said about balance turning into boundaries. I've myself am a former overachiever. Right. And I've burned myself out in many different ways. And I knew getting into massage therapy that I was really going to need it was really going to have to force that. Right. Because most massage therapists leave the industry in five years. It's very physically and emotionally taxing and you really have to tune into your body. You have to maintain that balance. Because if you burn out your body, you know, like, you're out of work. That's it. So one of the ways that, you know, like. So I've been trying to figure this out for a while. Yeah. You know, I also got into the industry because I didn't want any more to feel obligated to work more than 40 hours a week. I didn't even really want to work 40 hours a week. I'm still figuring out how to get there because even though my hands on time is lower. Right. With massage therapy, it's hard to work that many hours, but there's a lot of back end. Right. That you have to do and looking for yourself and running your own business. And you understand. But, you know, some of the checkpoints I've learned to cultivate for myself are how much energy do I have to experience my own body? Right. To move, to do yoga, to do the things I need to take care of my body. And when that starts, when I don't have a whole lot of energy for that, that's usually a Sign that something's out of balance for me. Right? So that or boundary. Right. You know, other ones are just. When I start feeling myself getting, like, really irritated with other people. Right. Like, really easily triggered. I'm like, oh, something's out of whack here. You know, we need to rebalance, you know, and those are some of the other just, like, things that I search and is how much time and energy do I have for my family and loved ones to help, you know, like, to take care of them, to be in relationship with them. Because that's also something that happens for pretty quickly in relationship. Right? Like, you start pulling away from, you know, and there's. It's hard to figure out where your balance is for everybody is. It's different. But those are things I think about because, you know, if I'm not able to share all of this work that I'm doing with the people that I love, then why am I even doing it?

Right? Yes, I love that. I love that. And I've had seasons, too, where, like, I've gone through, you know, waves of either burnout or, like, okay, now I'm really paying attention, and we're not going to go there again to, okay, now I own a couple businesses, and sometimes things happen in business and you're kind of forced to, like, you know, if you don't want to burn the whole business down, you kind of, like, got to jump in and, like, overwork sometimes, you know, and it's like, where I'm like. And that's where I went. I walked away from, like, that whole, like, balance concept in my head because I always felt guilty. Like, I was like, I'm not. I'm not balanced. Like, things don't feel balanced right now to, like, boundaries, where I was like, okay, in this season, like, I need to do X, Y and Z, and I'm going to make that okay so that I'm not feeling guilty that I'm less attentive over here or, you know, whether that was family, business, whatever. But yeah, I mean, I think so much of that, though, also impacts your energy that you have because, like, if you're allowing yourself and you're. You know, I once had a business mentor who was like, why are you making this wrong? He was like, if you want it to be right, let it be right. And I was like, well, that's a different. That's a different story, and that's a different perspective for sure. Like, okay. And I'm like, and how easy was it just to, like, shift my story to Basically make it work for what I wanted it to work for versus what I felt like everybody else wanted it to be, you know, and.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a process, figuring out where you stand versus what you want and need in the world versus, like what everybody tells you you're supposed to want.

Oh, yeah, right. It's like that internal versus external, like, you know, validation and, you know, ability to basically make decisions for myself as a grown up, which is wonderful. But sometimes like, we have to tune in and be like, who are we making this decision for? And is that the right energy to be putting into this? So, yeah, I do want to dive into. You have so like body shame and like body awareness as a bridge to self love. So you have. Marty had written that down and I want to like dive into that and like have you share a bit about that. Yeah.

So I think self love and self care are things that are. There's a lot more awareness around that in the last few years.

Yeah.

And for a lot of people, it's hard to figure out where to get into that. And also there's a lot of really shallow ways to be doing that. And like, so how do you get to the depths of it? Right. And so the depth for me is getting closer to self love. And that's hard for a lot of us that grow up in a world where there's just so much body shame. And I grew up in a family that had a lot of that. So there's a lot of unpacking I had to do with that. And I really like an idea. Judith is an author that I really like. She writes about the chakra systems and kind of wrote a brilliant book that blends in Western psychology with that. And she talks about the difference between guilt and shame. And guilt is I've done something wrong and shame is there's something wrong with me. Right. And whenever we fall into that trap of there's something wrong with me, I'm not enough. There aren't any solutions there. Right. Like, there isn't any way out of that pit of not enough. And it also just kind of crushes your ability to love. Because if you're not enough, you're never going to be enough in relationship. And it's a hard one to work through. And so I think the way that I've gotten there is just starting with awareness. And when I say awareness, it's a little bit more than just like tuning in. It's also trying to peel back the stories and the judgments that happen with your body. Rather than my knees in pain, exploring more like, all right, let me get curious about the sensations that I'm feeling there, or the idea that there's not any motion, there's not any energy in my shoulder, my shoulders locked up. Is it really locked up? Or does it just not want to move in certain ways? And why is that? So getting curious as opposed to creating stories about what's there is really, I think, a key piece for me. Maintaining that curiosity, maintaining compassion for your body. Those are helpful as you start tuning into what am I actually feeling and are the words that I'm using, judgments that I'm placing on it, are those things other people have said? Right? Or, you know, so just getting curious and exploring it. And as you get more and more down that road, at least for me, you know, it's just peeling back layers and layers of what is not yours. What are stories other people have told you? What are stories you've created about your own body? And I do find that this is. You know, it gets really complicated when there are health conditions that you are navigating, Right? Because that's when it's the hardest to do the. There's something wrong with me. Right? And then, yeah, that's tricky. But you have to tune in because also, I believe that we are always going to be able to understand more about our bodies. And our bodies have so much intelligence and so much information to share with us. We just have to learn the language that it's speaking.

I love that. I love that. I mean, I. And I feel like I started to fall into this actually myself a couple of years ago when I. Or maybe it's been like a year and a half ago when I enrolled in some, like, homeopathy courses, because even my youngest, who's constantly been diagnosed with, like, you know, upper respiratory infections and croup and on a steroid nine times in a year, I was like, enough. Like, obviously doesn't matter who I go to, what specialist I see, nobody can seem to, like, help her. And I just want to uproot this. I want to figure out, like, why she keeps presenting this way and how we can. You know, my whole goal is I want her to thrive, right? So, like, how can we keep her in thrive mode and. Or, like, when she, you know, does catch a bug, like, how do we get her back to that homeostasis in a way where I feel like we're not suppressing the fever and we're not, like, we're not basically forcing the body to work harder and work against itself. And I know, like, you know, this is not really, like, the topic of this podcast, but nobody or anybody who listens to me won't be surprised because I've talked about homeopathy and everything. And, you know, I believe there's a place in my family. I believe there's a place for both, like, Eastern and Western medicine, and I love having both of them and understanding when we feel like we need one versus the other. In my family now, whereas before it was, like, all one direction, and I didn't even know that there were other alternatives and things that we could do. And that's typically where I start now before I move anywhere close to the other side of things. So, you know, it's. It's a very interesting conversation because I think a lot of it really helps you tune in, at least in the courses that I took. It helps me tune into, like, what are. Like, what's. How's a child presenting? Like, it doesn't, you know, a diagnosis can be helpful. However, that diagnosis does not tell you, like, what's going on with this person versus that person. And it's always a good reminder when I go back to, like, the group chain that I'm on, where I'm like, okay, this is what's going on. And they're like, well, like, what are the primary symptoms and what is this and what is that? And I'm like, well, here's what's. What I'm seeing here is what, you know, they're telling me, you know, what do you think a good remedy is? And it's. It's interesting, too, because I have my little, like, go to remedies. But even with, like, okay, she had a cold this week, and then she had a cold again a couple weeks later, two different remedies for the same thing based on presentation and, like, what the body was telling us. And so I think it's really. It just kind of, I think, adds to this conversation in that is so many of us are, like, not in tune with our body. And I think the more that I've gotten into, like, the airway space and myo and, you know, working with little ones with feeding, like infants versus just toddlers, which is where I started with toddlers, it all just started to open up my mind a bit more because I, you know, a lot of people say to me, well, how do you treat that patient? I'm like, well, I see how they're presenting that day, and we go from there. And I'm like, critical thinking. I mean, I can te what you need to know foundationally. But then when you have that human sitting in front of you, you kind of have to tap into like, like we've been, what we've been talking about, like, what's going on for them today, what are their goals, what is their body ready to do or seeking, you know, what are they needing in the moment? And I think that's so, like, conceptually and theoretically it's like so hard for a lot of people to grasp that they're like, woo, that's way out there. Like, I just tell me like, step one, step two, step three. And I'm like, that's not how it works. But I think it really applies to even what you were talking about. Like, with what we've been taught and what we've been told and the stories that we've adapted based on where we grew up, who we grew up with, where we went to school, who our teachers were, you know, it's like, who, what mentors we've had. And a lot of this unlearning, if you will, for me and then relearning and kind of doing things differently has really come in my adult life from just seeking different answers and wanting more options and kind of not wanting to settle for like one person's opinion of what they think is going on because they're not in my body. So I just, that kind of, you know, this all brought that up for me. You're like, talking about this stuff and I'm like, yes. And I feel like this really can apply across like life in general. But I love, you know, I love where this conversation is going.

Awesome. Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, especially with more of my experience with massage therapy is I've started to really. I just think it's so funny how people talk about their bodies and you learn pretty quickly about what their relationship is with the body, with the language that they're using. Right. Like, I can't tell you how many times people are like, you can just take the whole arm or like, can you just like cut off my head and then like put it back on kind of thing.

You know what?

And I totally understand that. I understand totally that feeling, that relationship. And there's also so much violence in that. Right. The idea of wanting to just have parts of you just removed all together so that you don't have to experience the sensations you're having there. Right. The discomfort, the pain. And I understand it. And pain is hard. I've worked with a lot of people that have chronic pain and that's a tough one to navigate. But you start hearing there's a war going on in their bodies, with their relationship with it. And for so many people, that is true regardless of their health, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So how do you. How do you help people then? Like, if they come to you, whether they're in chronic pain or whatever may be going on, whether it's an infant or an adult, are there certain, like, practices or things that you teach them or that you work through with them to help them become more aware of, like, what's going on and help maybe even shift their perspective?

Yeah, it's. I mean, that's. That's always the question for me.

Right.

It's also, you know, it's also tuning into how. How much are they going to hear, because not everybody's going to hear everything I have to say. And then also, you know, how much I tend to be. I don't like to be very pushy with people about my ideas. Right. Because also staying in that humility, they. I do believe that people know their bodies better than I do. I just have more information and more education in it. So some of the things that I. I just like to point out a lot of times, different connections that I'm seeing in their body. I like to explain the relationship with infants. A lot of times I find that I am explaining to the adults. Right. Because whenever I'm seeing. Whenever I'm seeing babies, there's also at least someone else who's a client as well. Right. There's parents or a caretaker that I have to explain it. And they're part of that relationship and a part of the session, too. I often find with them, I'm educating them about body awareness. Right. Because their baby is having a hard time and they don't really know how to navigate it. And they also don't really have much of a relationship with their body. Right. So a lot of times it's just talking about, you know, we tend to think of our bodies in separate parts. Right. Like, my arm hurts, so they just want to pay attention to the arm. There's a tongue tie, so they just want to pay attention to the mouth. Right. But it's all connected and it's all working together. It is one system. Yeah. And I also have to point that out so that people aren't like, you know, a lot of times people are like, this hurts. Just focus on this. And I'm like, no, you're like, but the body's connected. Yeah, yeah, it's all connected. But, you know, there's Also a customer service piece that comes in there. Right. Because I exist in both a, you know, an alternative health job and then also kind of a more salon world. So there's this interesting in between and ambiguity with it. But that's kind of where I started, is just talking about how it's all connected, how it's all working together. I try to point out relationships that I'm noticing a lot of times I don't have necessarily explanations for those relationships, but I can just kind of point out connections. And I'm seeing breathing. And then breath is like my. One of my favorite modes for connecting with the body. And there is just. It's just incredible, the intelligence of our breath. Right. And you are probably much more in tune with airway and breathing than a lot of people are. But, you know, it's this how we mark the beginning of our life and the end of it is through our breath. And so we also. People have health conditions and they think about all of these things that you don't do all the time, but you breathe all day, every day. Just learning how to breathe more efficiently, more effectively, how to open that up, how to soften your abdomen to get that full diaphragmatic breath is huge for a lot of people, especially if you have this idea that your stomach needs to be flat, which is not really anatomically correct for most people. People, Right. And so that's kind of one of my favorite things to start pointing out, right? Explaining talking about breath and breathing and trying to take deeper breaths. Right. Because also, in doing more full breathing, you're also massaging your body.

Oh, I love that.

Right. Like that flexion and extension comes in with the inhale and the exhale.

Yeah, well, and it's, you know, it's interrupt you real quick. When I was actually, like, getting, like, headed to getting pregnant, basically was like, okay, now we're going to. We want to have another baby. And it was between baby one and baby two. I learned a lot more after my, you know, from my first one. And I was, like, kind of in that deep learning phase at that point, and even my certification in Mayo. And I went to a colleague who. He's a pt, but he's trained in, like, manual counter strain therapy and, like, a whole bunch of other, like, you know, modalities and everything. And it's like what you said about your patient earlier, where they were kind of like, I've never felt this relaxed before. Like, I left there and I literally said. And I think I repeated this 700 times on the podcast. Whenever I've talked about this experience. But I said I felt like I had a full body massage, but he barely touched me, like, because of, like, you know, the work that he did. And that was the first time that I was like, oh. So he, like, went and touched somewhere on my leg, but then that opened up something up here, like, in the top of my body, you know, and it's like. And he felt first he did, like, the cranial exam to figure out, like, where he even needed to go on the body. And, you know, it was like, this is really cool. And it kind of started to click. Okay. Everything is so interconnected. And we, you know, I know we're. I always say we're connected from the tip of our tongue to the tip of our toes from a fascial standpoint. But everything, like you said, works together. And, you know, current medical system treats everything in silos. We know that doesn't work right. So I just. I love these whole body conversations. But then the thing that made me even think about this was one of the things that he said to me was he was like, you're. You're not breathing very deeply. You're. You're, you know, very shallow breath. It's kind of. Of more clavicular up in your shoulders and your chest. And he said, I really want to help you kind of breathe with greater ease and kind of like, let's just, like, relax the chest area. And so he helped me do that, and I was like, holy cow. I had no idea that I wasn't breathing well. And, you know, I really. I even say, I feel like that was such a catalyst to, like, me then getting pregnant and having, like, a much healthier and easier pregnancy with my second one than I did with my first in certain ways. And I was like, huh? I just. I just think that it was incredible to be able to breathe and to walk around and to, like, oh, my gosh, I can actually, like, fully take in the breath if I want to and release it. And, you know, I'm not, obviously not walking around all day every day taking deep breaths, but I had no clue how shallow it was and how tense my, you know, chest and my clavicular area was, which was leading to much more shallow breathing.

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, the breath is amazing. We know that as children, we start unlearning natural breath patterns. We start mimicking posture of our caretakers, physical posture, but also breathing patterns. Breathing and the rates of oxygen and carbon dioxide also affect the ph of your system. Very practical things. And in the Yogic world pranayama have intentional breathing, and different patterns of that have been used for, you know, centuries to help shift energy and to get into that more meditative state as well. Right. And so a lot of times, the breath in meditation practices is used as an anchor point. Right. As a constant. Right. Your mind wanders, you draw back to your breath. It brings you back to the present moment right where you are in your body. And I really love exploring that. What does it feel like to feel breath in my thighs? Can I feel that there? I don't know. And just exploring that opening, that's also a really great way to really regulate the nervous system. That's the best way I've got. When I notice that my nervous system is getting dysregulated, I just remember to take deep breaths whenever I'm with a client, and I start getting lost in it. Take deep breaths. The breath is also. My craniosacral training is biodynamic and base. So it's just a different approach to it. We talk a lot about the breath of life, the breath coming into the body, and you really watch that expand and lighten for people. And so also, watching people's breath in sessions sometimes can tell me where they are and how that's expanding. And watch your babies breathe because they know how to do it. It's amazing. And they come into these really interesting rhythms and patterns with it, and there's an innate intelligence within that, for sure.

I love that. That's so. I mean, it's fascinating because I know, like, even in feeding evaluations, right? Like, we are looking at. Have what we're observing. We're looking at the dynamic between baby and caregiver. We're looking at baby, we're looking at caregiver. You know, it's like. Because as you were saying before, like, earlier on, earlier in the conversation, a lot of these caregivers, whether it's a mother or somebody else, you know, may not be in tune with their bodies. Right? And if they're kind of in this, like, fight or flight, shallow breathing, they're very, you know, carrying tension. Whatever's, you know, going on, we know baby feeds off of that. And baby's going. Like you said, baby kind of mimics that, in a sense. And so it's. I don't know if this happens in your sessions, but it's like whenever we start talking about, like, oral tension or things going on in the face a lot with baby, sometimes the parents are like. Or the caregiver's like, huh, I Think I have that. I think that's going on in me. You know, it's like they. It's like a mirror. They start to, like, see it on themselves. Like, whether it's direct or indirect, through, like, the education and the conversation we're having. And I'm always like. Like, yep, there. I'm like, the light bulb has gone off. Okay, great. Now we can move forward. Like, now we were having a different conversation now. Does that happen a lot for you, too? Yeah.

Oh, absolutely. All the time. And sometimes they'll start talking about it. And it's, you know, it's tricky because I. I'm not in a. In a field where I can diagnose. Right. But I can direct people and inform them, and it's tricky to also, you know, you don't want to be like, yeah, that's something wrong with you, too. Right. Like, going back to the conversation we were just having. Sometimes I'm like, yeah, that's not. That's not normal. Just say, you know, and I mean, the more that I'm learning about tethered oral tissues, and I've only really been learning about them in the last year, the more I'm looking around, I'm like, is there one there? And there. And did you have one? And how is this affecting your nervous system? System and. Yeah, yeah, because that nervous system piece is really where I've gotten really interested. And, you know, especially craniosacral in its nature is affecting the nervous system. That's what we're focusing on. And so, you know, that's really an interesting piece for me to always explore. How. How are those connecting? Right. And how are we. And just helping people learn how to regulate their neck systems and, like, how do you even sense the. What are the feelings of the nervous system? A lot of people don't even know where to start with that. Yeah.

You know, it's so interesting, too. Like, I was working with somebody who I guess I don't even know. I don't remember, like, why initially, like, hired her at the end of last year, but I was sort of like, okay, there's some changes I want to make. And I know she's. She does, like, hypnosis and, like, guided stuff like that. And, you know, and so I was like, like, talking through different, like, relationships in my life and different, you know, things that I saw as, you know, a story that I wanted to change, but also certain actions would have to change to change that story in my life, you know. And so anyways, at the very end of all of it. What it all seemed to, like, wrap, like, pretty little bubbled package was like, oh, well, you just really had this big response to overwhelm. Like, your. My kryptonite was like, overwhelm. And I. Here I am going through life, like, every single day, putting myself into a state of overwhelm and with, like, everything I'm trying to get done. And I've always said, like, oh, I thrive in chaos, and I thrive when. I thrive when I have too much. But I don't thrive. Like, I don't do anything if I don't have enough on my plate or if I just, you know, don't sit down and start working right away in the morning. And one, I was like, okay, listen to all these stories you're telling yourself, Holly. Right. And then two, it was like. But also boundaries. Like, how do I keep myself out of that feeling that starts to creep up in me of overwhelm? And now it's like, obviously, it's never gonna. It's not like it's just gonn away magically because I've acknowledged it. And, okay, that's here. That's what it is. Like, let's just never allow it into our life again. No. Like, I'm human, right? But now it's like, I have the tools, and I have, like, what you've talked about, having that, like, body awareness to know when a certain feeling or a certain emotion or something is, like, kind of creeping up. And I'm like, oh, I'm feeling that. Okay, what do we need to do to get, like, back to where we were? And again, like, not making it bad or wrong or, you know, not normal, but making it more like, okay, there's Hallie's kryptonite. Let's figure out how we, like, don't continue forward on this path, and we kind of, like, take a few steps back until I feel like I'm back in a place of homeostasis. And that's. That's been huge for me.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, the body awareness is a huge part of that.

Right?

Like, just starting to tune in with, like, what messages are my. Is my body sending me? And what, you know, like, asking questions into your body. And that sounds kind of crazy, right? For some people. But we talk about a lot in meditation, you know, just being the silent witness. Right. So, like, witnessing the thoughts, witnessing the sensations, and letting those move rather than grabbing hold of the observations and then creating stories. Right, Right. Like, you stop witnessing the minute you start trying to explain and connect and so just witnessing is a lot. And, you know, there's just a lot, a lot to learn in that. And it takes time. I think that's the other thing. Right. Like, we also live in a world where people want pretty immediate results and pretty immediate rewards for everything. And body awareness is something to cultivate over a lifetime. Like, it really does take time. And it's small efforts of just kind of checking in can take five minutes a day, maybe five days a week. If every day seems like too much for some people, right. Of just like going silent and breathing and checking in with what you're. What you're feeling, what sensations are you feeling and what does. What do you think your body needs in that moment?

Yeah, I'm smiling so big right now with the fact that you're like, just go silent. Because that's something that, like, one of my business mentors also, like, in his. His program, like, he basically had this. This activity where he wanted everybody to sit in three hours of silence. And if you could see, like. And he said, like, the three hours now. And this. The funny part of this is, is when I have, like, done these activities with, like, some of my own, you know, business clients, they're like, I'm like, just do it for five minutes. They're like, what? Like, five minutes. That feels, like, so overwhelming. But he said he was like, in the first 30 minutes to 40 minutes, most people, like, he calls it your monkey brain. He's like, your monkey brain's gonna go. You're just gonna have all these. You're not allowed to have phone, paper, pencil, nothing. You can't write anything down. And he's like, you are going, like, you're going to basically go through this experience. It's going to feel like it lasts the full day, but it's only going to be about 30 minutes. And he's like, at that point, your brain's going to get quiet and you're going to be okay with not needing to write everything down that's popping into your brain right now. And, you know, it's like you just kind of go through this experience where, you know, by the time you get through, like, the end of the three hours, you're in a very different place. And it. Three hours sounds like a lifetime for a lot of people. So, like, I've condensed it for some. I'm like, I don't think you get the full experience. But, you know, I. I got to the point because in the first. The first time I did it, I think I lasted an hour and I was like, I'm done. I can't. I just. I'm done. That's enough for me today. Like, and I was, I think I had 20 minutes of like, true silence. I was like, that's good. That's good enough for me. But then I was able to, like, because I used to drive around to see clients, I was able to sit in my car between clients, and for one minute I'd be like, you know what? I don't have to get out of my car for a minute. I'm just gonna turn off my brain. It's gonna go silent. And I would do that between patients. And it was so energizing because the amount of like, energy that you pour into, like, working with patients and the emotions and just that, you know, energy and everything, then I don't mean like, you know, physical exertion of energy, but like the emotional, the, the deeper level energy that we're talking about here, it was draining and exhausting. And then I had to go home to my own kids. And so being able to like, just pop into a moment of silence was like, so like, it was almost like liberating but also like re. Energizing at the same time where I was just like, okay, and kind of just like release everything. And people are like, how do you do that? How do you turn your brain off for a minute? Like, you're adhd. You, you, you know, your brain's going a mile a minute all the time and never stops. And I'm like, I know. And that's why I have to do this, because that's why. And I don't have to, but I want to because it's, it's. It's beneficial and I, I enjoy it. It feels good when I do it. And when I don't do it for a while, I'm like, oh, haven't been in the car in a while. I should probably start doing this at home too. Like, you know, it's. Yeah. So I love that you mentioned like, this idea of like going silent.

Absolutely. I mean, it's huge and it's challenging. Three hours is an incredible amount of time. I've never done that, so that's on my to do list.

Or what about like, those retreats where people don't talk for like two weeks? I'm like, I don't think. I don't know much I'm interested in.

That, but all the power to you. My husband right now is like, they're like, he saw like a four day darkness retreat and he's Like, I want that. And I was like, all right, man. Okay, we could try it. But, you know, it's. You learn a lot about yourself in those moments, too. And I think for some people that are newer to, you know, trying to sit in silence or meditation in general sometimes, you know, there's so many different ways to do it. Some of the thought processes I go through as I'm going into a meditation that have been helpful are just having a moment where I think through calling back my energy, right? And I do this. I've now started to do this more when I'm going to bed. Because there's so many ways that our mind and our consciousness gets tied to the client we saw that day, the things we got to do tomorrow, what's going on with the different parts of our family, right? And, you know, the different kinds of responsibilities and jobs that we take on. And so I just kind of call back my energy to myself, pull it all back, you know, kind of pull it all back into myself. So that is helpful sometimes to just kind of quiet the mind. And then something that I learned from a of breath work, nervous system training that incorporated a lot of internal family systems in it. Have you heard of that?

No. Internal family systems?

Yeah.

Tell me.

Yeah, I mean, it is an incredible training. This is with my teacher, Gabrielle Gerard Jenks, and she is based in Norfolk as well, but she does a lot online. So internal family systems is more popular in mental health realm. And they talk a lot about. There are different parts of us, right. And I think about it a lot in terms of. I'm a big crystal fan, so, you know, like, there are different dimensions and different sides of it. And if you look at crystals, usually depending on the angle you're looking at, totally changes it. It's kind of like the different parts of our consciousness. And so sometimes we have these parts. Oftentimes they call them managers, right, that are trying to manage different aspects of self. And just asking some of those parts that are really active, especially the ones that are trying to figure things out, if they could just give us the space for whatever time you're trying to meditate, and sometimes just having that internal conversation of, okay, I know that you're trying to help. We're trying to figure some things out. Can we take this 5, 10, 30 minute to just, you know, to rest and to be in silence, and then we can get back to whatever you're trying to figure out. Oftentimes for me, I'm trying to figure out what I'm gonna eat.

I should really Try that for food. That's a good one.

You know, I've spent whole yoga classes masterminding a meal.

Oh, my gosh, that's incredible.

But, you know, just that simple, like in the beginning of. And it's like setting an intention. Right. That's also a part of it. General yoga practice. What's my intention with this? And then letting that go. Right?

Yeah.

So just the intention of, like, peace, stillness, quiet. And you're not always going to get that tangibly, but just kind of focusing on it, I think is important. And it's also, you know, I've been focusing on intention a little bit more, and I think that's the same with, like, your relationship with your body. Right. Like, what kind of relationship do you want to have with your body? Yeah. Because a lot of people think about it as just like a machine to do their bidding.

Right, Right.

And in that, you dehumanize yourself. Right. You disconnect yourself from nature. Right. From the earth. And there are lots of ways that we are all disconnected from it. Right. But just kind of tuning into the living organism that is your body, that is full of microorganisms that are making your whole gut work. You know, it's pretty fascinating. We have whole ecosyste systems and our body and tuning into that and having a little bit more compassion for just like the living thing that it is is also just tremendous. It's so powerful. And any steps towards that are going to be helpful. Even if it feels like you're miles away from whatever your goal or idea is, any kind of steps towards that building awareness and building compassion for your body can be tremendous. Yeah. And like you said, it just feels good. Like, why aren't we doing more things that just, like, feel good?

Things that our body, like, speaks and responds so beautifully to. I mean, you know, and the whole idea of, like, sending an intention, you know, at times, like, I've gotten away from that. Right. Where it's like, you know, now if someone comes and asks me, I try to. When I say I've gotten away from it, I wasn't always doing that. But now I've actually tried to take that concept and even apply it to different areas of my life. Life where, you know, it's. Without calling it that, like, with my patients, I'm like, okay, what do you need today? It's like, I'm almost asking them to set their intention so I know how to help guide them through this feeding session or this myo session. Like, yes, I know what I think I want to do. And I know what I want to educate them on, but what are they open to, available to, like, attending to in the moment right now? Like, what is their body seeking? You know? And I think that that's both a dance between art and science that is. Is kind of tricky for a lot of people to navigate, whether it's the patients or the providers. So I always go geek out when I meet other people who get it, because I'm like, even with, you know, setting intentions in my day or my life in general, I think part of, like, staying out of the overwhelm, that whole story that I've created for myself is like, well, I can do that, but there's got to be certain boundaries in place. And one of those boundaries is setting my intentions so people will say, hey, can you come speak at this event next year? And I'm like, like, I haven't planned next year yet. Like, what do you mean? I don't even. I'm like, I mean, I. Now I finally have my calendar for, like, my three big. My. My one course that I launched three times in a year. Like, I've got that down on a calendar, but I'm like, besides birthdays and some vacations, like, what? I don't know, you know, and it's. It's so interesting because it used to be, like, I would feel this energy, like, kind of like pushing, like. Like it was like a push in the body where I was. Like, something is telling me not to. You know, part of me is like, oh, this would be great for business. And, you know, I think this would be really great to have. You know, I like these people that it. I totally want to align with them. And then. But something's coming up and I'm like, I'm not saying no, but I'm saying not right now, you know, Or I am saying no because it's just not in alignment with, like, what I've set for next year's goals or where I am right now in life. And I don't know that could change, but I know you're planning this far out, and I can't commit to that. You know, whereas before, I would make all these stories about how, like, oh, everybody else does this and books things two years out and a year out and does this and that and the other. And I'm over here going, like, like, well, that doesn't. That's not how I do my life. So that apparently doesn't work for me, and I'm not going to try to fit myself into that story.

So here we are. Yeah, right. And it's, you know, some of the things I've been figuring out a few things on that are just like, flow. What does it feel like to go with the flow and how do I tune into where is energy moving in my life and where is it not? Right. And then another interesting piece is trying to figure out what yes and no feel like in your body, right? Like there is a physical sensation. Like, what does it feel like to be drawn to something and what does it feel like to be repelled by something, right. And just kind of exploring those sensations. You know, that's something I've been, the last few years, been exploring more because for so long I would have identified as really indecisive. And I wanted like, all the options and all at once, right? But then you usually have to, like, pick a path, right. Like take one thing. And so, you know, I've spent a while figuring out, like, I don't really know. I didn't really know what yes and no felt like in my body and like my mind would get in the way, right? What I think I should be, you know, just like ordering food, right? Like what I think I should order what looks the healthiest, right. I make all these like, cost benefit analysis. Like it's just a meal, right? Like, what do I want? What looks good, what feels Good? Yeah.

No, 100%. Yeah.

And that, that goes into so many ways. And I think that's also like so huge because our bodies know, but the mind gets in the way so often. And so I think that's another thing that body awareness can help with. It's just, you know, and that's also tuning into your intuition, right? Like in my field, intuition is a big part of it. But I remember going through massage school and I was like, yeah, sure. Intuition, of course, right. I had no idea. I was like, what is this thing everybody's talking about? Yeah, yeah. And I'm still figuring out, like, what is, you know, like, how do I identify that? What does that feel like for me? Because it's going to be different for each person, like how they connect with that and the physical experience of it. It. Yeah.

I actually, I had hired like another person, she was a shaman, like, to work with me on like, you know, basically trusting my intuition. And it was so funny because, like, she gave me a bunch of tools and things, like call back my energy and to release certain energy that was not mine and all these, these fun little, like, things. And at the end of the day she was like, you she's like, you know, you have the answer. It's just following your intuition. It's just trusting. And she said, and you have all this evidence in the past of, like, when you've followed your intuition, like, look what it's done for you. And when you haven't followed that, that intuition called a guttle, you know, call it like a gut, you know, following, you know, follow your gut or not following your gut, or just like that feeling of yes and no or like what you're describing, you know, in certain ways, she's like, when you don't follow the intuition in that way, she's like, like, what. What happened? Like, what? Like, where are you? Where are you now? And it's not that bad things happened. It's just. It's led to a lot more indecisiveness. Right. Or like, non action because, you know, inaction. Right. Non action in action because I'm just a lot. It's almost like I'm getting into that point of overwhelm. But I didn't recognize it as overwhelm at the time. And I didn't have, like, a name for it, which just kind of helped me, like, reel the energy back in. I didn't have the tools at the time either to kind of reel it in or push it out. And yeah, so I'm like, between the two individual that I've worked with in the past. Guess it's been like three years with, like, trusting my intuition, recognizing, you know, that overwhelm is a big thing that I want to not get into, like, you know, and how to basically shape things so that ultimately it comes down to following your intuition, trusting yourself, trusting that intuition, and knowing that, like you said, like, your body and your, you know, it. It knows what it needs, it knows where you're headed, and the mind oftentimes gets in the way of that. So, yeah, like, I'm like, hi, it's me. Work in progress every day.

Yeah, right. And I'm curious, like, have you figured out what are some of the early signs for you that overwhelms probably, like, down the road.

So for me, it's like having too many projects on my plate where I have too many responses, like little responsibilities here and there. Because it's not even that it leads to overwhelm now. Now it just leads to inaction. So instead of like, me, you know, and. And part of that could be because I didn't realize I at the time or I had some story or energy against hiring somebody additional on the team to basically Focus on that one project so that it wasn't me holding it up because there's only so many hours in the day, right? It's not that I'm sitting here eating bon bons on my couch. It's just that I'm going, oh, well, when, you know, I have a private practice. I have an online education company in that online business. I've got a course, a membership, a certification. We're building out another certification, and I got another course. And it's like, you know, as. As things evolve and grow, we need the energy, whether that's in people or other softwares or whatever, to help support that growth. And. And I've built that up over time. But for me, it's like a lot of it comes back to having the right team members. Trusting myself in hiring, that's always been a big thing for me. Like, I don't know, I can hire somebody into my private practice to treat like that because there's this, like, connection that I'm very, you know, easily able to make to know whether or not they're going to be okay to send into people's homes and work with children and, you know, skill set aside, right. Just that that's. I hire more on, like, that than skill set.

Yeah.

Like, skill set can be learned. The other stuff takes a lot more work. But in my online business, it's been. I've definitely hired, I've definitely invested, right. But I don't think that, you know, I recognize so early on that I should have hired earlier for certain things as we grew. And so now, it's funny, I was just saying to my business coach, like, two days ago, I was like, I think I used to be allergic to hiring. Like, and he was like, he's like, that's something we all go through. It's just, you know, you kind of think that, like, the current team can handle it and we've got this. And he's like, but then things pop up when you own a business that have to, you know, customer service things and just whatever, you know, things happen. Right. And so having enough hours in the day and also not overworking your team, which I never want to do, really, you know, that that's been a big thing for me. So I think that that also comes back to having the support. And I think that, you know, is both in business and in my. My personal life, right? So, like, now I have an amazing nanny slash, like, personal assistant who splits her time 50, 50, because I didn't need somebody. My kids are a little bit Older now, but I still need help in the afternoons. But I'm like. But then here's all the reasons why I'm not doing work. Because I'm overwhelmed with my personal responsibilities and things that like, maybe I don't need to be doing. And if, you know, I can have someone else help me, that would be awesome. So just like, little things like that or like, as my business grows and as finances have allowed, I've been able to like, you know, have some more of these niceties that really, I felt like, led to a lot of my regular overwhelm.

Yeah, that's. That's brilliant, right?

I don't know if that answered the question, but yeah, that's.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that sounds really like you've got it really clued in. Because it's hard to figure out, like, when. And I think a lot of families deal with this too. Like when. When do you need. Or when is it beneficial to outsource? Right. And I think that I find that with a lot of. Of clients that are new to body work, right. Like, they haven't quite understood the value of it yet. And so it's, you know, and I was just talking to someone the other day about, you know, just kind of shifting value systems around it. Right. Because a lot of times bodywork is seen as a luxury and it's just pampering. But they're. The benefits to it are tremendous. I mean, every time I get a massage, even if there's nothing extra to it, no other services is. I learned so much about my body. I'm always surprised every time. I do it all the time, too. That's what I do for work. And so I think for a lot of people, it's just figuring out when is it beneficial to be supported by other people. And also that's kind of another thing that I love about what I do is we talk a lot about how so many people feel so isolated and so many people are without that sense of community and without the village. Right. And there's a really physical, tangible way that body work supports people. Right. To feel your body physically supported by another. I mean, it's a deeply spiritual work for me as well. Right. And I love being able to take care of people in that way. And there's the direct oxytocin that comes out of it, you know. And so for a lot of people, it's just hard to figure out when is it beneficial to be. Find support from other people. And a lot of it is just kind of like looking at Your value systems, giving it a try and then finding out, did you value that? And sometimes trying different practitioners, too. Right. And I'm sure that's in every field. Right. It's worthwhile to find the people you connect with that you want to go see. And everybody's going to be providing different background and training and different approaches. Right. You know, but a lot of, you know, once you learn what it feels like to be relaxed in your body and, like, what it feels like to feel good in your body, what I also tell people is kind of, what's your. What's the value that you place on that? Right. Like, what is the price point that you can associate with feeling good in your body? Or what is the value of those? I don't know, how many days of pain do you experience in a year? And what's the value that you associate with not having that? Right. Yeah.

I mean, people put a lot of. A lot of money on not having pain. So that's. I mean, and I do.

Yeah. It's just finding the things that resolve it for you. Right. That really do help. Yeah.

Yeah. Because most people will say, I will do anything to get out of pain. Like, you just tell me, like, what should I do? And I think that, you know, I love this kind of, like, series we're doing in a sense, where I'm having different, you know, providers come on in the cranial, sacral, cranial fascial, sacral psychotherapy, you know, etc. Worlds. Because I think that it's something that we haven't talked about enough on my podcast. Like, it comes up a lot like, okay, baby should go for CST or CFT or Cairo or whatever, you know, And I kind of took a step back and I was like, I don't really think people fully grasp, like, what it is or, like, what it can do for them and, you know, really the benefit of it. And so now having some conversations surrounding this that are coming out, it's on the podcast.

Podcast.

It's like, I'm really hoping that especially moms of little ones, but adults, too, that, you know, anybody really kind of recognizes that there is value surrounding this type of work. Because, you know, when I've experienced it firsthand, when my patients have, when, you know, you see. You just see the entire body kind of relax and the nervous system relax, and all of a sudden you can achieve much greater things. And in speech therapy or feeding therapy or whatever, you know, whatever it is that you're working on, it's like, I always say, we have to be in a state of like, rest and digest, right. We can't be working from a place of fight or flight or we're not going anywhere today. We're just going to stay flying. Like, let's try and bring this down and make sure that like, we're ready to receive the therapies that we believe are needed. But that's also like step. You know, that's one of the step ones is, is making sure the body is prepped and ready and especially surrounding, you know, any type of surgical procedure, period. But obviously we talk a lot about tetheral tissues and those kind of surgical procedures or even palatal expansion and, you know, upper lower expansion and everything. And that was another thing for me was like my body was not responding halfway through expansion to the appliance. Like, I couldn't crank it anymore. But when I would go and see, you know, the. Get the input needed from Manny, it was like, oh, okay, now I can turn the appliance again. Look at that. Like, everything's kind of free flowing and everything's talking to each other and like. And I'm one of the people who. I can like actually feel the pulsing or I can feel like the flow start again, which is so super cool. Like, did you feel that? I'm like, yeah. He's like, most people can't. I'm like, I know these really cool things, but I'm like. And then to feel that and then to be able to turn the appliance, put it in my mouth.

Sure.

Make like, oh, look, my cranial bones are like talking to each other again. And everybody's like in this happy state. And okay, this is not just like voodoo, right? It changed my value system around it too, right? Because I was like, like, I, my body needs this. I'm like, no question, right? Whereas going in, it was like, I don't really understand what I'm doing, but someone said, I need it, so let me try it out. So I love how you brought up like the, you know, shifting the value system or even just understanding what their value system is around that, that therapeutic work. Because, yeah, values are big. And, you know, some people will go drop tons of money on a fancy car or fancy bag, but they won't put that kind of money into their body because they don't value it. And hey, that's their prerogative. But also, if you're in chronic pain, like, let's have a different conversation.

Yeah, yeah, right? Yeah, I like that you said that about valuing.

Valuing.

Your body is so Important. And I do find that, that with, with moms and especially when their children are younger. Right. Especially before you even get into that school system. But I mean, that is, I think, the hardest population to get in. Right. And so I, and I knew that when I wanted to start working with babies that working with the parents is so. Can help so much in that process. And I do find that the parents that come in that get their own body work, it's so much easier because I don't have to like, translate and explain and kind of defend. And they, they get it. They get the value of the work. And so, like, the foundation is already laid and I can have different conversations with them about it. And that's helpful. And one of the things I've started doing, I've been working with Liz Chandler and her and I are starting to do parent, parent baby sessions. We've had a lot of toddlers too. And that's been amazing because for a lot of parents it's like, you know, sometimes it's finance. Right. And the value systems are a part of that. Right. Valuing getting their own work. But the other part of it is time. Right. Like, how are they going to find the time away from their baby and, and then coordinating the travel money, right? Yeah, yeah, right. Like, those are, those are the key things. And so that is really a route that we're kind of exploring to help. Help with that. And it's a different session. Right. It's not as deeply relaxing for the adults. But also, usually, especially in those earlier stages, you're not really able to totally let go if you're not with your, you know, with your baby. For a lot of, of a lot of young parents, right. They're so connected to that and that concern is going to be running in the back of their mind. So. And it's amazing when we see the parents really be able to let go and release and open up their bodies. So much can move for the babies. And like, we, we knew that going in that that was likely that's what we were hoping for. And it's amazing to see it. And it's just so cool. And it's interesting to see mirroring happening there. Right. Like, one of us will be working usually on child, one will be working on the adult, the parent. And it, you know, like, I'll look over and we're working on the same areas or, you know, like she'll be working on an area that I was just at, you know, it's interesting to, to see that. Yeah, yeah. And it's I mean, it's cool stuff, and it's helpful for families to be doing it together. Right. So if you're spending the money on the body or for the baby, I think it's so important for you to understand what that feels like for you. It's so cool that you started to tune into those subtler rhythms of your body, because that's for a lot of people, they don't feel it, and they don't really know what the hell we're doing.

Yeah, I know, I know, I know. I mean, that was like. He was like, yeah, I think. I mean, it may have been like, a. An estimate, but he said, I think, like, less than 30 of people or something can actually feel a lot of the pulsing or the flowing of, like, you know, the fluids. Once things kind of unlock in a sense and start to, like, you know, work together again. And I was like, I. I felt that every time I was like, that is cool because, like, you know, like a release and the body's just, like, very happily functioning again. And. Yeah, so it's. It's. But. But then again, you know, these dyad appro. The dyad approach you're taking with, like, the caregiver of the mom and baby, I think it'll be so cool to just, like, see that evolve and see how much better, you know, will the baby respond. Right. Like you're saying, because, you know, mom or the caregiver are also receiving this. Like, how much more beneficial is that? Does it.

Does the.

Does this last longer? The work that we're doing? Does it, you know, impact. I would guess. I would theorize it would impact other areas that maybe one or the other was struggling with.

2.

Just being able to kind of connect in that way because they. I think one of the biggest things that we see are stressed, very, very highly stressed families, especially surrounding feeding. Right. That's very stressful. You have a child who's not feeding, whether it's an infant, a toddler, older child, and so already everybody's, like, very heightened, you know, from a nervous system standpoint. And to see everybody kind of like. Like take a deep breath and relax and all kind of, like, come down together, and, you know, then. Then we can more easily move forward and work on these things that we need to address, like, we were kind of mentioning before. But it's. Yeah, it. That's tricky. Like, that, I think, is one of the hardest things. And it's like, also. How do you say this to, like, a new mom who's not sleeping, who Is like stressed to the max about just like fourth trimester, all the things, right. And it's like, hey, you would really benefit from this. And they're like, where do I have time to fit this into my life? So I just, I love that you guys are offering these mom baby, you know, like, like, you know, treatment sessions. And I think it'll be really cool to like hear more about that down the road and see, you know, hopefully more people will do things like that because it sounds super beneficial.

Absolutely. Yeah. And you know, also a shout out to the dads. We've also had a dad baby session and that was amazing because they're a huge part of it, right. The other, the non birthing parent is a huge part of this to plug into. And I forget it often myself and I'm trying to, to consciously bring that in because it. We just don't see them as often. Right. They're less.

And you know what's so funny in feeding therapy sometimes is like, sometimes we'll have like the mom consistently bring a child and the child will have like, you know, what some people may call behaviors. And like they're throwing a utensil or they're not wanting to eat the food or whatever may be going on. They're just, you know, and then dad brings a child and the child sits there and just eats their food. And I'm like, I used to go like, is it that dad doesn't tolerate this at home? Is it that, that mom giving some sort of reaction? And then I started to take a step back and be like, or is it that dad's just kind of like chill right now and the child's really feeding off the energy? And so it's not really a matter of behaviors and what's allowed and what's not allowed and what's tolerated and not tolerated, but it's more like that's all calm, cool and collected right now. And you know, mom's coming in in a heightened state and her nervous system's kind of a wreck. And so the child's feeding off of that. Right. And because we've also had it where like the parent will leave the room just like, like, oh, hey, can you go grab that from the other room? Or can you go heat up the food or whatever just to kind of see what happens. And we'll be like, mom's coming back. And they will act totally different when the parent is not in, that parent is not in the room. And not to say this is always a mom and dad thing, but I Speak to moms a lot, especially as the birthing parent, because there's often a lot of hormones and things that just naturally is having birth that child. And even a toddler at this point, you know, throwing utensils or a new feeder beyond the normal throwing utensil state. Yeah, it's. It's one of those things that I started to tap into and I was like, energetically, I think that this child is totally responding to like, who is sitting next to them. And so then I would kind of like, try and take it upon me to like, be in this, like, place of like, calm, very, like, you know, unaffected by anything that happens and just energetically trying to connect with the child in a way where it's like, hey, we're just gonna hang. We're just gonna do some things, like, no big deal, right? Versus like, okay, you're coming in, we're gonna do this. You know, it's like when they come into that energy of like, oh, this is stressful. I don't know what I'm doing, and we got to get through all and blah, blah, blah. It's like it never happens. It never works out because energy. Right. So, yeah, anyway, so I just thought that was kind of an interesting reflection as like you were talking. I was like, ah, yeah. I used to have these like, thoughts in my mind about certain children that I, you know, I worked with when the parents were present and you know, also carryover to home.

Yeah.

And it's not always because it's like in an office or in school or even in home with somebody versus not with someone else. It was more so I think the energy surrounding mealtime or whatever it was that we were, you know, working towards. So very fascinating.

Yeah, right. And to bring that energy into more tangible terms, nervous system stability. Right. That's nervous system regulation. And it's, you know, it's so hard for. For the birthing parent too. Like, that's just something that I'm also trying to figure out is like, to what extent do you even have the capacity to.

Right, yeah.

Right. Like, you are handling so much and especially it's hard with the younger ones when they're feeding issues. Right. With breastfeeding and there's nervous system dysregulation that's associated with that. And I mean, that's just direct physical. But yeah, it fries your nervous system. And you know, I think that birth is everybody's first trauma. For those being birthed and for those giving birth and oftentimes for the, you know, for the non birthing parents as well. It's traumatic. Right. Like, it is a drastic shift. Everything changes.

Anyone does.

Yes.

Yeah. Right.

Like, even if. If you would identify your birth as a good experience. Right. And everything went. Went well and according to plan. Right. There's still a trauma. Right. It's a drastic shift in, like, the general expectations. Right. And I don't think enough people have, like, language to talk about that. And I get that. But also, you know, I. There's care that's needed. Right. Like, there. There are things that help support us when we've gone through those transitions. And there's such a drastic hormonal shift for birthing parents. There are really drastic biological shifts that happen with each baby. Right. And I think we're just, like, really starting to get that now. Like, more science is coming up around that. We're having more conversations about women's hormonal cycles and how that affects everything. Yeah.

And how these babies used to be shaped and raised by the village when mom was still recovering. But now it's like, mom's recovering and basically doing the work of 10 people while trying to keep this child alive. So, you know, and all it's like, in kind of not leaving mom out of this and not making any parent who may be listening kind of feel like this is not meant to make anybody feel, like, isolated, any sense. It's more. More so to kind of just bring awareness and help you realize there are things out there that can help you. And I've always said, like, especially surrounding birth trauma or, like, just like you said, going through the birth canal or having a C section in its own ways are both traumatic for mom and baby. And it's something where I'm like, we need some kind of full body support for the child and the mother, like, pronto, like, soon after birth. Like, let's let them connect and then, like, let's. Let's work on them and see, like, how are things flowing? Is there any tension? Did anything happen? You know, how was baby positioned in the womb? We can obviously figure. Not obviously, but oftentimes figure that out. Right. Based on. I'm. This is not my expertise, but we obviously can see it sometimes based on how they're breastfeeding or how they're, you know, wanting to naturally lay or turn their head or shift their body. So many things that I think can be addressed that aren't being addressed that could make everybody's life so much easier if we just did this, like, in the newborn stage, very early on, early intervention for all mom and baby yeah, absolutely.

And like, I'll just say that supporting yourself as a parent, especially in those early stages, and seeking the people that can support you, right. Through body work or through any ways that feel good for you, that help you relax. Right. There's so much power in that. There's so much power also in the tangible sensation of having another person take care of your body.

I love that. I love. This has been amazing. I mean, this has been amazing. I know we could probably talk about this all day long because it's like, it's even very calming conversation to just like, kind of, you know, talk about these things and share it and. But I want to make sure that we know they know where they can find you. So will you share, like, your website or, you know, where you are online?

Sure. Yeah. So my practice right now is based in Norfolk, Virginia. I'm looking at some offices in Virginia Beach. So my business name is Elemental Needs, and that is a K N E a D. Yes. And so that's my website, elementalneeds.com that's also my Instagram Elemental Needs. I'm not. I'm still working on the social media piece, but I will. Any kind of, like, classes and things will be updated there. For anyone interested in the Dyad sessions, the parent baby sessions, those are all booked through Liz Chandler, also an incredible body worker in the area. So her website, CST with Liz will have more details on how to schedule for those. Yeah, and that's most of my info right now. I've been kind of wanting to focus more on moving into the teaching training space and figuring out how to work with groups more, but I'm really in the early stages of conceptualizing that. So right now it's just private sessions with me.

Awesome. Well, we will make sure that that is underneath the podcast episode so everybody knows where to find you. And. And then I'm sure once you kind of, you know, evolve into the next phase, that'll hopefully be on the website or on Instagram. So as long as they're following, they'll see that, right?

Yep. Yep.

There we go. Awesome. Well, thank you, Courtney, so much for joining me. This has been amazing.

Thank you, Hallie. I really. You appreciate. Appreciate it and I'm honored to be here.

Thanks for listening to this podcast. If you found value in this episode and want to hear more of these Myotots, Airway and Feeding related episodes, be sure to leave a review on Apple Podcasts and share this episode on your social media platforms. You can access free resources and all I offer@hollybalkin.com or pop over to hollybulcin on Instagram to get all the latest updates.