Episode 244: Nobody Knows Your Baby Like You Do with Erica Bonner, OTR/L, CLT

Hi and welcome to episode 244 of the Untethered Podcast. Today we have Erica Bonner joining us. Erica has been an occupational therapy practitioner for eight years. She began her career as an occupational therapy assistant and then completed the MSOT Bridge program through Belmont University in Nashville, Tennessee in 2018. She's worked in a variety of settings, including outpatient and acute care, treating orthopedic and neurological injuries. In her eight years of practicing, she has enjoyed treating all patients across the lifespan with a variety of diagnoses. She completed the training with Norton School of Lymphatic Therapy to become a certified lymphedema therapist in 2019. Her journey in the Maya world began this year after she gave birth to her daughter in October of 2022. She's currently enrolled in the training through the Mayo Method and lives in Mississippi with her husband and their daughter. Quick Disclaimer all information, content and material of this podcast are the opinions of the speakers and is for the informational purpose only and not intended to serve as a substitute for the consultation, diagnosis and or medical treatment of a qualified health care provider. Welcome to the Untethered PODC Podcast. I am your host, Holly Balkan. I'm a certified myofunctional therapist, feeding specialist, podcaster, business owner and mentor. This podcast is all about getting your questions answered and collaborating with colleagues to bring you the most up to date information in the orofacial myofunctional therapy, airway, tetradural tissue and pediatric feeding therapy space. If you're new here, I challenge you to keep an open mind and join my mission to spread this message far and wide. If you've been around since June 2019, thanks for being a loyal listener. As we jump into today's episode, remember to listen with correct oral rest. Posture, tongue up, lips closed, teeth apart, breathe through your nose. Let's get started. Erica, welcome to the podcast.

I'm excited to be here.

I'm excited to have you here. I know, you know, they just heard about your bio and your background and everything, so I want to jump like right, right into your story with your daughter. I know that, you know from the beginning, you know, things were not smooth sailing. So I'll, I'll turn it over to you and let you share about that. But yeah, tell us about what happened.

Yeah, so we just celebrated my daughter's first birthday last Thursday. So this has all been like within the year. So when she was born, you know, everything went great. Delivery was good, everything was good. But when it got ready to got time to Feed her. That was when the issue started. She's my first, so I clearly had no idea what I was doing at all. And we just really struggled. And it was kind of the. The thing of, like, every time the lactation consultant was in the room, she would do great. And then as soon as the lactation consultant left, she was not great. And then so I was. I just had a very uneasy feeling. And I just felt like something was not right, but I didn't know what it was. And so we, you know, we got discharged home from the hospital. I was trying to still nurse her and she was just not having it. It was terrible. She was crying, I was crying, Everybody's crying. And it was just so frustrating. And finally over, we were discharged on a Friday. So of course we had to wait until Monday for our follow up appointment. So that was the longest weekend of my life. And I had. My mom was over helping me and I was just like, whatever, like, just give her formula. Like, I don't care, like, it'll be fine. And my mom was like, Erica, you know, like, your milk has come in pump, you know, like, use your pump. And I was like, I'm glad you're here, for you to think, you know, so soundly for the both of us. So I started to pump and. Which was not my, you know, original plan. That wasn't my goal, but I was like, you know, in the meantime, that's what we'll do. And so I started to pump. And that was just as much a disaster with bottle feeding her as trying to nurse her. And I had actually called the hospital that Sunday to go back up there for, like, lactation support, because our hospital lets you come back, you know, and do that free support. And it was kind of the same song and dance. Like, we got there and she was doing, you know, okay nursing. And like when I tried to show them, like, what she was doing with the bottle, but she was really struggling, like with the bottle. So if she would pull anything out with the bottle, it was all over her. Like, she would be soaking wet. And so, you know, they recommended this bottle, that bottle, this nipple flow, that nipple flow. And nothing mattered if it was like a more difficult flow or like a higher level flow nipple, it would just spill all over her. And if it was more of the one that she had, like the preemie nipple or whatever that one was, she. She couldn't get it out. She would literally work the bottle for like 10 minutes and it would not move. And I remember being so frustrated because I was like, how does nobody. Like, I know this is a learning curve, you know, and we say feeding is natural because it is a natural instinct to eat, you know, but it's. It's something that she has to learn. And that's what everybody was telling me. Like, she'll figure it out. She'll figure it out. So we went to the hospital, we went to the doctor on that Monday, and her pediatrician told me, you know, her weight is down so much. She was like, you can either go today or tomorrow, but she's, she needs to be in the hospital. And I remember just kind of being like, what? Like, you know, like, I don't feel like it's anything like that serious, like, you know, what's going on. And. And she was like, some babies just don't want a nurse. And like, we just got to get nutrition in there. And so we ended up being admitted to the hospital on the, on October 24th. And I remember just feeling just the lowest that you could possibly feel because I remember feeling like, you know, all my friends have had babies. I know these other people have had children. And like, they weren't readmitted, you know, And I felt like I were literally being here because I can't feed my child. Like, I can't nurse her. I can't bottle feed her. Like, I'm the world's worst mother, you know, I can't. I can't feed my baby. I can't do the thing that a mom should just be able to do. And when we got to the hospital, I let one of the nurses, I was like, you give her a bottle. Like, you, you, you. You watch her. And she was, you know, gave her the bottle. And my daughter was just losing milk all out the sides of her mouth. And she was. I was like, do you not see this? And she's like, well, that. That's normal. Like, she'll. She'll figure it out. And I was like, when are we going to figure it out? Like, we're already in the hospital. Like, at what point do we figure. We're five days old, we're in the hospital. Like, at what point is she going to figure this out? And it was just such a difficult time. I had completely. I was like, whatever. Like, we will not nurse at all because I had so much fear about her gaining weight. And, you know, obviously when you're nursing, you don't know exactly how much they're, you know, they're taking in. And they, when we were in the hospital, they wanted to track like, ounce for Ounce, like, how much she was taken. And so I'd kind of gotten, like, so consumed with that. I was like, you know, we won't nurse at all. I'll just pump. Which is also, you know, no fun if that's not the. The route that you want to go on. Like, when you feel like you're forced down that road, you know, like some women, you know, they're like, I don't. I don't want to nurse. Like, I want my baby to have breast milk, but I do not want to nurse. And you make that decision, that is. That's great. That's your decision. But when you have your mind set on nursing your baby and you can't, and then now you're stuck to this pump while you're also trying to navigate, like, these newborn days, it was so frustrating. It was so difficult. And I remember just feeling like this is not what I had imagined. This is not, you know, this is not what I thought these first few days and weeks were going to be like. And so we were doing the bottle and she was still struggling. It was a nightmare. And every feeding, you know, was just like ripping the band aid off for me, because, I mean, you have to feed your child, you know, and every time we did a feeding, it was. It was terrible. She wouldn't take anything in. She was covered. She was so fussy. And then of course, because she wasn't eating, she was hungry, you know, so those first few weeks were so tough with her. And I remember one night I was like, I had. Was talking to a friend and she's like, well, like, has anybody checked her for a tongue tie? And I was like, I don't know. I don't know what that is. And I was like, but apparently not. Nobody said anything. And so then I started kind of researching and I was like, well, this sounds like all of this stuff she is experiencing. And so I finally reached out to one of our providers in the area and she was like, yeah, like, bring her in. And. And so I brought her in and she was like. She had a. My daughter had a. The Cotlow Class 4 Posterior tie and a lip tie. And so she was like, you know, yeah, of course she's having difficulty because she doesn't have that mobility and. And all. And so that day, we were six weeks old at that point. And they released her tongue. They didn't release her lip. And we leave. And things that. Things did get better. The feedings were a little better at the bottle, they weren't great, but they were better And I was still so traumatized from, like, the weight gain issues and all that that I still did not want to nurse her, you know, but the provider and then she has like a lactation consultant in her clinic with her, you know, they were like, you know, do you want to try? And I was like, no. And so we just kind of went on with it. And then it was about two weeks later, and one night my husband was warming up the bottle and she was just not having it. She was so fussy. And I was like, you know what? Like, let's just see what happens. So I nursed her and she was able to nurse. And from eight weeks till now, she's still nurses, you know, so we were able to kind of redirect that journey, but it was still a struggle. Like it. We were just now finally able to nurse. But it was not like the sweet, you know, envision that, you know, that I had of being able to feed my daughter. But we were able to start nursing. And that kind of went on for a few weeks. And then she started having some more difficulty. And I reached back out to the provider and I was like, I don't. I don't know if something's wrong again. And she's like, well, maybe try speech. So we went to speech and the speech therapist told me that my daughter had acid reflux and that that was the reason she was not wanting to eat. And I was like, okay. And so we talked to the pediatrician. They gave us acid reflux medicine. Nothing changed at all. There was still difficulties with latching and feeding. And she had transitioned to daycare at that time because I'd gone back to work and she wasn't taking bottles at daycare. She really wasn't eating at any point in time. And I remember just feeling like, so burdened. And I felt stuck again because I felt like nobody was listening again. Which is very hard when you're a fresh new mom, when you're a first time mom and you really just are kind of like navigating the new waters of what to do for this child that totally depends on you to be their advocate to care for them. And I just felt so frustrated. And one night when I was in her room rocking her, I just, I remember, like feeling so burdened and so. Just so unhappy and that, like, this was the road we were walking down. And one night I just prayed and I was like, you know, if, like, please open my eyes, like if there is something still wrong, like, please, you know, let me, let me go down the path. I need to go down to help her, and then if nothing's wrong, then, like, take this burden, because I'm not getting to enjoy these sweet moments with my daughter that I will never get back. And a few days later, I found a book that was written by a provider that lives fairly close to where I'm from. And I was like, you know, like, let me read this book. Let me. Let me get off the Google, Dr. Google, and, like, stop going down my rabbit holes. And I was like, let me get, you know, some sound information where I can't just keep clicking and clicking. And I read the book, and. And this provider was close, and so I was like, well, I'll just. I'll let this person see and take a look. And when we went and made the appointment, everything had reattached or her tongue had reattached. They never released her lip. Her tongue had completely reattached, and she had hardly any mobility with her tongue again at that point. And then at that point, that provider recommended revising the tongue and then releasing the lip and felt that the lip, you know, probably should have been released the first time we did that, and it was really kind of smooth sailing after a few days. You know, those first few days were just as bad almost. And then you're sitting at home and wondering, like, why did I do this again for the second time? And, you know, I've made a mistake. This is even worse. But, you know, as we navigated through those days, things started to get a lot better. And I remember just being in that time, you know, we were dealing with these feeding issues with my daughter, and, you know, nobody was listening to me. Nobody was really helping me. And when we. When I took her to the pediatrician, the first pediatrician that we started off seeing when I had swapped to exclusively pumping, she was. My daughter was still not gaining weight like she should because she was losing 90 of it. You know, she wasn't even taking it in. And she. The provider said. The pediatrician said to me, well, you need to start eating more avocados and peanut butter because your breast milk is obviously not fat enough to help her gain weight. And I was like, you know, I don't know a lot about, like, breastfeeding and stuff, but, like, I feel like I know enough to know that, like, that's not entirely true. And so I was like, okay. And I remember being like, ma', am, it could be my milk. It could be your milk. It could be donor's milk. It could be. It could be formula, like, it's not gonna matter because she's not transferring it correctly. And she said to me, you're just being so anxious over this. And she was like, I really think you need to switch to formula and, like, and let this go. And I remember, you know, and that when she said that, that was probably like two weeks after we had gotten out of the hospital, so she still wasn't gaining weight. And that was really kind of what set me up for feeling like I'm doing this all wrong. And I felt like it was easier for them to diagnose me with postpartum anxiety than it was to diagnose my daughter and figure out what was wrong with my daughter. Even though I was kind of like, you know, now looking back and knowing more about, like, oral restrictions and things like that, I'm like, she was every check mark, every single check mark. And if you would have known, you know, about oral restrictions, we would have seen that she was literally check marking every single box. And maybe that was the problem. And not. Not me, not my feeding choice, not my. Not my milk, you know, but that was kind of the first thing that set into place. Like, this is my fault. You know, I felt like it was my fault that she was hospitalized. I felt like it was my fault that she wasn't gaining weight. And then when we had, you know, so as we progressed through and had her release twice, then after the second release, we were still having some issues, but they had gotten better, but it still was not, you know, great. And we started then having sleep issues. Actually, I say then we had had sleep issues the entire time, but they had kind of like amplified more than what, like, I felt was, like, normal for a newborn and or even like a small infant at that point. And a lot of people were pushing me to sleep train her. And that just didn't sit right in my heart. Again, that just was not a choice that I personally wanted to make. That wasn't how I wanted to parent. But I remember feeling like this is another issue where I'm saying, like, hey, like, we're waking up, like, every 45 minutes, every single night, going on, like, over a month now. And it was kind of dismissed again. And like I said, it was kind of told, like, would you go get her? She's going to keep waking up. Like, you need to start, like, letting herself soothe, you know, blah, blah. And I remember being like that, that's not what I want to do. Like, and then I felt like this was the second time that I was kind of being told, like, As a mom, I'm making the wrong choice. You know, it was at first because I was nursing her and I wanted her to have my milk. And then it was second was like, now we're having these issues and it's because I respond to her and I go get her. And I remember feeling like, well, I'm just like hitting it out of the park, making all these mom decisions because I felt like everything that was natural or like, like instinctive to me that I wanted to do was wrong. And, you know, that it was everyone.

Telling you but completely failed you.

So, yeah, yeah, like hindsight looking back, like, I know, like, I have not been wrong. You know, we have that God given mama instinct for a reason. And remember thinking, you know, like, I'm just, I'm doing this wrong. Like, something is still wrong. And at that point, after all of the, like, trauma of like trying to get somebody to believe me when we were having feeding difficulties and then it turned to like, now slow sleep is a disaster. It was a lot of gaslighting. I felt like, because it was like, oh, that's normal baby stuff. Babies wake up. Babies wake up. And I was like this. I know. I was like every 45 minutes for every night for weeks on end. And one thing that we started noticing when we were laying her down, she was just screaming. And, you know, one morning or one night I told my husband, I was like, something's, you know, wrong. So we took her to the doctor the next day. And she had an ear infection. And that was kind of our snowball of ear infections. We had five ear infections in seven weeks. And so when she was a little over six months old, we had tubes put in and they took out her adenoids because they. Her doctor said that they were blocking about 80% of her airway. She would, she snored like, she snored like a grown man. I mean, you know, little teeny, tiny baby. And you could hear her on the other side of the house snoring.

Yeah, well, and just to speak to that too, like, one, if the baby can't breathe, how are they supposed to drink milk? Whether it's breast or bowel. Okay, one. And then two. You put a baby down who can't breathe, whether they're on their belly or their back, especially if you're putting them on their back as we're told to. Okay, now we've just completely collapsed everything into a rest position. And the tongue could be falling back into the airway. The adenoids are blocking the nose. Like, she probably couldn't breathe. Which is why she was probably screaming. Right. And waking up frequently. And things are not training well. Now we're getting ear infections. I mean, you would think that some of these medical professionals start to put the dots together.

Yeah, for sure. And it was. It was kind of being missed, and it was really being missed. And like I said, and that was what I feel like was really put on me as my fault. You know, like I said, it was, well, you're going to get her. So, like, of course, like every time she startles and wakes up, like, you get her and she's learned that you're gonna come get her. And I was like, what? The worst thing that I teach my child is that I'm gonna be here when you need me. Then whatever.

I guess I failed, right?

Yeah. I mean, like, that. I think that's the point, you know, but it was one of those things that it was. It was put on me that it was my fault, you know, and when we really didn't know that she had had these ear infections and probably. She honestly had more, we just probably missed some of the ones at the beginning just because we just didn't. We didn't know she had fluid on her ear because I had said something to her pediatrician and I was like, she's constantly pulling at this left ear. And he was like, well, there's some fluid, but it's not infected. And that was about a month before the first full blown infection. You know, it was a struggle getting somebody to listen. So she had her. Her tubes put in and her adenoids taken out. And then it was about a month and a half. And one night she started almost kind of out of nowhere making the. I guess it's kind of like the. The strider, I guess. I guess hers was technically the streeter noise, like where she just all of a sudden started, like, gasping almost. And I had started following you at that point and I had seen where you had posted about, like, the baby sleeping kind of in like the CPR position with their bottom up. And she had never done that before. And she just, like, was like, really struggling for, like, air, but not in, like, respiratory distress. It was just like she just could not get comfortable.

Yeah. You could hear, like, noisy breathing. That stride where it's like, off here. Yeah.

And so me and my husband, we were just kind of like. Like, you know, we don't really know what to do. And so we kind of just were like, well, let's, let's take her to the er. Like, we don't know what to do. And we had also, just about two weeks prior to that, found out she had a severe milk allergy, like anaphylactic milk allergy. And so we were like, you know, let's just get it checked out. We took her to the ER and we got there and the doctor asked me, what do you want me to do? And I was like, well, check her airway. I don't know, like that's why I brought her here. And basically we left with absolutely no answer. And he told me she's probably just fussy and whiny because she's teething. And I was like, you know, I'm a first time mom, but unless like impaired breathing is a new sign of teething, I don't think this is teething. But thank you.

But thank you so much for your helpful opinion here. Yes.

And it was just such a, like, it was just such a dismissive thing. And I remember, like, me and my husband left and we were just kind of like, was that really just our experience with like, health care, like, asking for help? And so the next day I called her surgeon and I was like, look, like we, we've got to figure something out. And so he was like, we'll bring her down. And so he took her at the end of the week to see him. And she had developed a cyst where her adenoids were removed. Like he said it was part like where some of the tissue wasn't completely burned. And she developed a cyst that was blocking her airway again. And so he. We just tried to treat with antibiotics and we saw like improvement for like a week. And then like a week later, everything came back the same noisy breathing. Everything had kind of returned. And so we had to have surgery to have it removed. So that was the second surgery, you know, so it was just a lot of things that I felt like could have been maybe avoided or like, you know, headed off a little bit better if somebody would have listened to us. And I feel like we were really just kind of dismissed because we, we are, we are first time parents. And I feel like that is where society feels moms and parents in general, but specifically moms in the sense of like, everything is just dismissed as you're just first time, you're just worrying about it, you're just anxious about it. You know, I just felt like a lot of our concern, every concern we had was, was valid. I mean, there was like objective, you know, it wasn't like, oh, I'm worried, you know, that she's, she's six months old in one day, and we're not sitting yet, and she should be sitting at six months. You know, it wasn't those little, like, oh, you know, give it time. It was like, we're not eating, we're not breathing. Like, these are basic functions that we're struggling with. And it was kind of just dismissed. And so, you know, that was kind of our story with her. And as far as, like, kind of how. How I kind of found you and kind of have, you know, like, have kind of dove into this world a little bit and trying to educate myself, because I am an ot, and I remember when I was kind of looking everything up, I remember the mom guilt felt worse because I was an ot, because I was like, okay, I'm seeing that this is something that OT can help with, and I don't know what to do, you know, but obviously, I should not have known what to do because this is a whole other world of training that we are not exposed to in grad school or, you know, unless you go to a specialized clinic for, like, your clinicals, like, it's not something you're exposed to on clinicals. It really is a whole, whole new world that you have to go down. But in the moment of being so fresh postpartum and going through everything we went through, I felt like I've missed these things, and I knew I hadn't, but I felt like as an ot, I had failed her. And then I felt like as a mom, I had failed her when really I hadn't. You know, I. I was doing everything that felt right to me. You know, responding to her at night was how we knew, hey, like, we're having all of these nights where we scream when we're laid down, probably because our ears don't feel well. We're having nights where we're waking up every 45 minutes, probably because we're not breathing well, you know, and we would. Because I did respond to her, and I did nurse her and Rocker to sleep and do all the things that society nowadays tells moms do not do because you're gonna damage your child, which is crazy. But I did all those things. And because I did those things, I noticed, huh? Like, we're snoring, and it's getting worse and it's getting louder and it's getting more consistent. Like, I don't think a baby should be snoring. Like, I think that that warrants a conversation. And even though there was a little bit of a delay in getting the care that we needed and kind of the answers, we got them, you know, because I did, I pushed and I did know that, like, hey, this is not right. And I was in tune with my daughter. And you know, I did everything that I felt was right by my standards. But I can tell you by what society said I should do as a mother, what our healthcare professional said I should do as a mother, I did everything the opposite. And, but it's kind of how we, we were able to care for her. I mean, and to know that like, hey, these things are not, these things are not right, you know. And I feel like sometimes healthcare providers are quick to say, well, some babies don't nurse, some babies don't do this, some babies snore, some babies don't sleep. And I feel like it is that blanket statement that allows some of those children who really are struggling to fall through the cracks. And I feel like it's those blanket statements that really, really affect mothers. Because then you're like, because how I personally was, I was like, well, am I, am I being overdramatic? Am I being paranoid? Am I, am I making something that's.

Not here questioning yourself as a mom, it's eating in its full force because now you're going for sure. Maybe I am just overreacting. Maybe my, my child is, maybe it's not as bad as it seems. Maybe it's just some of first time mom. Maybe I have postpartum anxiety and I, I'm seeing something that nobody else is seeing and it's not actually there. I mean, it's like they will actually make you feel like you're clinically crazy for sure. When you're just literally, you're following your, your, you know, maternal instinct and kind of going like, I know something is not just wrong. I know something feels very wrong. And yeah, listening to me.

Yeah, yeah. Because that's how, when we were, when we were initially hospitalized and this is what's crazy, you know, like looking back, I remember specifically telling her pediatrician a year ago today. So that's just so funny is it was a year ago today, her pediatrician walked in to do the rounds and I said, it's like she's not swallowing. And she was like, well, we can do a swallow study, but I don't think it's going to show anything. And I was like, well, I don't, I don't know that a swallow study is the answer. But I'm telling you, it's like, it's not even, she's not even getting it. It's not my milk it's not. Formula is better than breast milk. Breast milk's better than formula. It's, it's not any of that. It's. She's not even taking it in. So it doesn't matter what she gets, doesn't matter how she gets it, whether it's nursing bottle, formula, whatever. It's like she's not getting it in. And that was, that was her, like, that was her response and that was her answer. And that was it. And that was all I was offered. We can do a swallow study, but I don't think it's going to show anything. And I literally remember sitting in the hospital bed, you know, at this point, you know, she's six days old. Five, six days old. And I mean, I literally just sat there and just put my hands in my, my, my head, in my hands and just burst into tears because I was like, this has got to be the most frustrating thing, begging someone to listen and help me. And I'm basically, like you said, being, being told that I'm the problem. I cannot tell you how many times in that hospital stay that well meaning nurses, like, I do not mean this as a. I do that they were well meaning about their suggestion, but it was. Has your doctor talked to you about getting on medicine? Has your doctor talked to you about getting on medicine? And I was like, no, because I, I don't want medicine because I don't feel like I need the medicine. Because this isn't, this isn't un, like unfair, I guess, like, I don't know what the word I'm trying to say. Like this, this, all of these worries are valid.

Yeah.

So no, you're not making this up.

This is actually happening.

Right?

I was like, we're having hallucinations. Or, you know, you were kind of drumming up. Because look, there, there are people who sometimes do see things that nobody else is seeing and maybe they're not actually there. So I don't want to downplay that because it could be a situation where there can be ppa, ppd. There are some moms who absolutely have very, you know, scary thoughts over killing themselves or, you know, it's. And I think when you do see something like that, I think now medical professionals are so heightened around supporting moms with PPA and PPD that they're like, we got to get you on meds too. And so, you know, it's like, it's like, how do you balance that? I don't think that these professionals are well trained or really know how to even differentiate between mom's needs and baby's needs. And just because you like the medical provider, maybe don't have the answers. The thing that I kept hearing you basically say over and over and over again was like, they might make one suggestion, whether it was them telling you what you should be doing, which is completely none of their business, or they're like, you know, or even the swallow study and you going, well, I, you know, I don't think it's actually that. But her also saying, I hate when doctors are like, well, we can try this, but I don't think it's gonna show anything. Like, well, then why are you recommending it? And also why are we not having a conversation over what else we can try? Like, that should not be the end of the conversation. Like, you don't just give me an option, say, I don't think it's going to work. I say, I don't know if we should do that. And then you walk out or that conversation ends. Because that's where you then, as the mom, feel stuck when you have zero support from all these people who you've now become extremely vulnerable. You know, you're vulnerable, you're sad, you're frustrated, you're angry, like no one's giving you anything helpful. And look, I would rather a doctor sit down and say to me, I don't have the answers, but, like, let's see if we can figure this out together. Yeah. Being human. And I do feel like ethically a doctor has that responsibility to do that with their patients. And it sounds like you absolutely nobody, especially in the early days that did that until you found the specialized provider yourself, who was like, yeah, I think we might, we might actually have tongue and lip tie. Okay, let's address it. And then the other provider who, you know, released the reattached lips, tongue and release the lip for the first time, but it shouldn't. It should not fall on the parent.

Yeah.

Navigate this themselves.

Yeah. And I think that's where. I think that was what my eyes were really opened up to. Because like you said, there. There are case. Severe cases of postpartum anxiety and postpartum depression. And that is its whole bubble in itself. Yeah. But I do think that something that, like I said, I don't know how to find the. I don't know what the answer is, but like you said, finding the balance between what the baby needs and what mom needs and what is a real concern with the child. And then what is maybe some of that, like you said, that. Okay, am I just imagining things? That aren't happening. Am I just so sleep deprived or my hormones, you know, crashing down? You know, am I getting all of this or is it something real? And I know for me, like, obviously it turned to postpartum anxiety because I was like, I don't know, maybe I am. Like, maybe I am having all of these things and I know I'm not. I knew that everything I was seeing was valid and hard fact, but nobody was really helping. So then I was like, well, maybe, maybe I, maybe this is just me, like being in my head. Maybe this is all like postpartum. And I think that's the thing is that we, we've got to find that balance of not just dismissing every concern a mother has over her baby as being an anxious first time mom and, and finding like, okay, well, what are you, you know, seeing that is making you feel this and like, you know, okay, we've got some concrete things. Let's figure it out. Because I feel like, yeah, like, and.

I feel like they were, you know, for, for someone to say, oh, she's just going to figure out how to do this while you're watching formula or breast milk pour out on the side of her mouth that is never ever normal. Like maybe a little dribble here and there, but actually lose the feed out of the side of the lips. Like someone. It just boggles my mind that someone's not like, well, let's look inside her mouth and maybe her tongue's not functioning or her lips are not functioning or maybe there's something going on with her muscles. Like, I'm surprised. I mean, there was never a referral to like neurology. There was never a referral to anything to be like, maybe something's not firing. Right. Maybe we've got a muscular thing going on or a cognitive thing or who knows? I mean, the fact that you never got any other referrals. And you know, in going back to what we were talking about too, with, you know, PPA and everything, I'm obviously not an expert, but you know, ppa, like you said, can absolutely be present whether the symptoms are real or not. You can have that excessive worrying and anxiety.

Yeah.

But that can also be, that can be, you know, brought to life by experiences like this.

For sure.

As you were also saying.

Yeah, because that's what, you know.

Did you ever have like, did anybody ever give you like questionnaires to fill out or like suggest that you talk to anybody or they just like wanted you on meds?

No. So the, like the pediatrician was the One that had told me, you know, like, to reach out to my doctor, you know, to get meds or whatever. And then so I did reach out to my doctor, and, like, they made me fill out the questionnaire. And then that's what. I mean, the questionnaire was fine because I was not fine, but I was not having. I didn't feel like it was true. Like, you.

Your worrying was appropriate for what was.

Going on for a child, for sure.

It wasn't excessive. It wasn't, you know, so there may have been more anxiety. That's not typical of you. And yes, there's hormones raging. And yes, you've got a newborn, and so you fit that, you know, textbook definition of a mom with maybe ppa, but also rightly so, I'd be worried if you were not worried about it. And also being gaslit and dismissed continuously while your child just, like, continued to struggle. And, you know, it just boggles my mind for them to sit there and say, like, oh, you need to take your baby to the hospital because she's not putting on enough weight, and you can go today or tomorrow. First of all, when you said that, I was like, they told you today or tomorrow. I was like, what kind of a. I was like, what?

Yeah, and that was. That was. The other thing was that, you know, it. Because it was given to that, like, you can go today or you can bring her back tomorrow, and if her weight hasn't changed by tomorrow, you're gonna go tomorrow. And so then I remember kind of feeling like, well, I don't want to go to the hospital, but I don't want to wait.

You shouldn't have to make that decision. Yeah.

And that's the one decision.

Someone should tell you whether or not you should do the rest of it. Not so much. Yeah.

And so it was really like. It was. And, you know, and I'm in health care, you know, so it was just. So. It was like. Our experience was just like, almost like out of a. Like a strange book, you know, that was just like, is this really the things that we are being told? Is this the options we're being given? Is this, you know, this is the medical advice that I'm being given, you know, and. And providers only know what providers know. I mean, you know, so I don't fault them in the sense of, like, they, you know, weren't aware of, like, hey, like, maybe let's look at a tongue tie. Maybe let's look in her mouth. Because I specifically remember one visit I wasn't really sure, like, what Thrush was like, I mean, I knew, but I didn't know. And when I was looking at her mouth, I was like, her mouth is always white. And I said something to her pediatrician, and I was like, is this thrush? And she was like, no, that's just milk. Some babies just, like, keep a lot of milk on their tongue. And I was like, I mean, okay, well, I mean, all right. And looking back now and, like, what I've kind of learned is like, well, maybe those. Some babies that do that are the ones that can't, like, effectively clear their tongue because they possibly have restriction. And, you know, so it's things like that, that, like, looking back, I'm like, it was check, check, check, all of these things. But, you know, we're. We're legit symptoms and had a. And. And it. It fit the mold for her. Like, when we got this, when we got her release and we did, you know, we found a good chiropractor, because I kind of live in a rural area where, like, training is not the best, and we, like, we travel for providers and things like that. When we started doing all that, like, then the puzzle pieces just really just started, like, sitting together with her. And she was a totally different baby. She was a totally different baby. I was a totally different mom. And it was. It was because of that. And I remember feeling just so frustrated that I felt like we had just lost such precious time that I will never get back with her, really, Just because nobody listened or like I said, or then it was just kind of like you said it was an answer or it was a. It was a suggestion. And then period, like, there was. There was one. You can have this option or I don't know what else to do, you know, and that was just so frustrating. And I feel like this day and time, you know, I follow different. You know, like, I'm in different, like, little groups and things like that on social media. And you see these. These stories, I feel like, are becoming so much more common of mothers saying, I noticed this, but nobody's listening. I've noticed this, but nobody's listening. And they're just begging for help or then they're being told, you know, oh, well, it's just a little tongue tie, like, it'll go away, or if you don't breastfeed, then it really won't matter. So then there's moms that are, you know, like I said, there's. There's nothing wrong with choosing to formula fee, combo, feed, nurse, you know, whatever you want to do. But as it needs to be your choice, you know, so there's moms that are giving up nursing who really wanted to nurse because they think that they're the problem and they're not, you know, And I remember thinking, like, I would have been devastated if I would have just given up, and we would have swapped to formula, and we still would have had those problems, because we would have. Because it didn't matter. It wasn't the contents of the bottle. It was her ability to get it out of the bottle. And, you know, I think that would have made me so much more upset to know, like, I've lost this thing that I wanted, you know, I wanted to nurse my daughter. This was kind of what I had envisioned, and we. We couldn't do it. And I would have been so upset. I feel like if I just wouldn't have, you know, kind of continue to just fight for her, fight for me. And it makes me sad for the moms who are like, okay, well, my provider said this, so, okay. I was a little more like, no. Like, I don't like that answer. I don't think that's right. And then. So sometimes that almost kind of fed into the gaslighting, because even in my mind, I was like, well, I've gone to this doctor, and they said no. And now I've gone to this doctor, and they say no. So maybe it is me. But then, okay, we're gonna go get one more opinion. And then this doctor's like, boom. Yeah, like, all of your feelings are validated. Like, I see all of this, and here it is, plain as day, you know, and then. So that is so difficult, I think, too, for moms, you know, and new parents and things, or just in general, you don't have to be a new parent, just every new child navigating this.

The first time, especially.

Yeah, but it's that when a provider tells you everything's fine, then you kind of feel like, okay, well, so they are, and, you know, everything is fine, and so maybe I shouldn't go get another opinion. And that's what I see a lot, too, is mom saying, you know, I feel like I should get a second opinion, but I don't know. And I always, like, encourage them on. I'm like, there's nothing wrong with a second opinion or a third or fourth. But you're never wrong. Like, if in your heart you don't feel settled, there's a reason you don't feel settled. Because, no, you know, our doctors are great. You know, health care is, you Know, we're very educated. You know, there's a lot going on then. Nobody knows a baby like that. Mama does.

You know, this was my experience too, with. With my first with Lily, where, you know, I went and got that help, and basically everyone was like, she's fine. But she was like, never over the first. Like, we also were going for those extra weight checks. We did not have to go back to the hospital in the beginning, but she had lost, you know, more than 10% in the hospital. And then we were having a hard time getting her. Like, you know, I remember seeing. I'm like, sitting there trying to nurse her one night. And again, like. Like, you.

I.

You know, my goal was to nurse her. So even though they give me a script for, like, my pump, it had not ordered it yet.

Yeah.

So here I am with the new baby at home who won't feed, and I'm going, I need a pump. So we're having, like, a hand pump delivered from Target. Like, and this is in 2015, right? This is like. And so, you know, I'm having a hand pump and I'm like, okay, so, like, hand express. Like, what is this? Like, nobody's taught me how to do this. I'm trying to, like, watch a video. Totally sleep deprived, screaming baby, also waking up to feed every 45 minutes. You know, she was not putting on weight. She did not have, like, the spillage that you described, but I think she just wasn't transferring as much because she just couldn't. She didn't have the skills to do it. And, you know, I tried to. They were, you know, one day, I think it was like our first visit or something. After we came home from the hospital, they gave me like a ready to feed bottle and they were like, just, you know, give her this in the middle of the night if she's not nursing well, like, fine. It was Similac. So we give her that. And like, kind of like you were saying, like, you had that, like, worst weekend of your life. Like, that was like, the worst night of my life.

I just.

I remember it so vividly in my brain where, like, she's screaming and crying. I'm crying. My mom was there all day in the middle of night. She's like, I don't to do for you guys. I'm like, I don't know what to do for us. And the pediatrician's response in the morning because she did drink most of that bottle. But their response was, oh, well, that has like, three milk proteins. Let me give you one that only has one. Your group of good start only has one milk protein. Maybe that'll be better for her body. And so it was picked up, but then I donated it. I was like, I am done. I am not. I'm just so, you know, stubborn now. If I had been in a situation where, like, I couldn't even get her to take anything, I think I probably. I'm sure I would have done things differently. Sure.

Yeah.

But it was like she would take in just enough to hang at that first percentile for her entire first year of life. Like, we never went beyond that. We introduced solids. She did well, became pickier and more selective later on as a toddler, like, solid introduction was like, relatively easy. No known allergens or anything. But 13 months of painful breastfeeding and a baby who, you know, slept in that tripod position, that CPR position, a baby. If I had listened to everyone who's like, put her on her back, keep her on her back. I'm like, I put her on her back and she flips herself over. And that happened starting, like, when she was a couple months of age. Like, yeah, her body was tight, so she could do that before you normally see a baby.

Yeah.

And I was like, if her body wants to be in that position, why am I fighting it? And I didn't know any of this stuff back then. I was just like, she's sleeping, and if she sleep, then I get to sleep. And I know she's gonna wake up in 45 minutes to feed again, so I'm gonna let her sleep.

Right.

I mean, it was just at that point, I think we had her in, like, a pack. Not, not. Not a pack in place. She wouldn't sleep very well at all.

Flat.

So flat she flipped to her belly. But she usually needed to be on the go. So we were in the car. We were with that position, the car seat position, which we know we don't love babies to be in, like, containers all the time. But, like, for her, it was probably the positioning of her belly or just how she felt more like, you know, contained and comfortable or in the rock and play, which is called. Yeah, sleep in that. And that is the only way she slept. And I think around, like, five or so months also with the sleep training, like, I. Everyone's like, well, sleep trainer, you're going to start working again. You should sleep trainer. And I had this, like, again, this, like, feeling about it. Kind of like you were like, I don't know. I mean, this just feels so cruel. Like, I don't. Yeah, but I need to work and I need her to sleep. So we did do it and I, you know, kind of follow the rules, kind of made my own rules. I like would never leave her room until she was sleeping. I just kind of wouldn't make eye contact. So it's like, you know, I'm here, but whatever. And I regretted that so much after doing it. Even though it worked. Yeah, she still is like a high touch child. Like she at eight, like somebody laying in her bed rubbing her back and when she gets that input, she falls asleep. Otherwise she will just be up staring at the ceiling for an hour. And you know, I'm like, in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with a child needing some input, some sensory input in order to fall asleep. And with my second, we did not sleep trainer, I actually, I broke it back out. I tried to do it maybe for like a night or two. I was like, no, this, this is horrible. Like, I don't know how I did this the first time. I'm not doing this. We'll just figure it out. The time they ended up back in my bed, which I know a lot of people don't love the whole bed sharing thing, but she would be like attached to me whether she was nursing or not. And I was like, well, at least if she's attached to me, I know she's breathing through her nose right now. So, you know, it was like little things that I had. It's like I didn't know what I knew because I didn't know any of this then.

Yeah.

And she was like my first and best educator and teacher in all of this. And then having my second, you know, I was like, we're doing the be the peds course right now and we're like in between module 7 and 8. And someone said to me, they were asking a question. I'm not going to forget what the question was. Goodness gracious, why was I even saying this?

Oh, my second.

They were like, well, when you have a baby, you know, they're like, our first one was a similar situation.

Right.

Like my second child, like we released their, their ties around, you know, maybe they were a week old or something and they're like, is that okay? You know, I listened to this whole thing on optimal timing of release and you know, because I talk about in the course a little bit and, and I said, look, you know, it's going to look very different for every patient. Right. We can't know what's okay, what's not okay. But honestly, you know, I didn't Know everything. Even in 2018, I was still my learning journey. And I released my second daughter at five days of life, and her feeding dramatically improved. We also took her to pt, which kind of helped. Kind of didn't help. Like, she maintained her milestones, but she never, you know, she never stopped dragging that back leg until I learned that you want to work with the strain, not against the strain or the tightness.

I'm like.

And then we did CST and Osteo and, like, only one session each, closer to a year of age. And not only did she get up and walk, pretty soon after that, those appointments, she then started crawling without dragging her leg on all fours. And I was like, oh, things are integrating. Yes. And my husband's like, you can walk. Why do you care? I'm like, no, no, this is important.

Yeah. This is important matters.

My OT friends and my peachy friends would be very happy. This. So, yeah, I mean, it's. I'm like, so basically all is to say, right? Like, you know, everything echoing what you said, like, we don't learn this stuff in school. We then have our own children or sometimes patients who teach us these things or kind of make us go, something is not right here. I hear what this parent is saying, and I think the best medical professional, whether it's a clinician, therapist, doctor, whoever, are the ones who go, I want to help my patients, and I'm not sure how to help them. And I'm seeing this come up more frequently. Like, I need to go take a course. I need to go read a book. I need to go read some research articles. I need to talk to some other colleagues. I need to do something to figure out, like, how I can help these. These moms and babies or, you know, the patients are working with. And I truly believe, deep down, like, that is what makes the best provider.

Oh, for sure.

We're willing to put in a little bit of their time. Like we all got to do continuing at anyways. It's just where we do it. So why are we not doing it? You know, I know it's easy to pay, like a flat fee and do some online education and just meet those ceus. Maybe we should be digging a bit deeper. And, you know, and I think that also speaks to a lot of the root cause medicine, which is also not always, you know, Eastern versus Western medicine and what insurance dictates versus private pay. And, you know, I know there's a lot, a lot, a lot of different layers to this onion and factors that kind of influence a lot of this including maybe where you work and what you're allowed to talk about or not talk about, because there's gag orders around, tethered oral tissues in hospital settings. You know, I'm like, it just. It just breaks. It breaks my heart that it's 2023, almost 2024. Right? Like, we're a couple months away from 2024 at this point, and we're still having these conversations, and moms in Facebook groups, like you said, are still being told, oh, we are not nursing. You don't need to release a tie. Oh, it's just a mild tie. It's just a little tongue tie. No, either it's a tie or it's not a tie. It's present or it's not. It's impacting function or it's not impacting function. And why are we not helping if it's there and it's impacting function? That mom needs a community of support. And, you know, I at this, to the same token, I feel like I'm getting really tired of saying we only know. We don't know what we don't know this day and age. I feel like there's no more excuses for that. If you're working. If you're working with toddlers, if you're working with children, and you still have never heard of a tongue tie in 2023, as a doctor, as a pediatrician, as an entire. Yeah, head out of your butt. Like, I'm sorry.

Yes. No, for sure.

Papers. Whether they're for it or against it, you should at least know what they are. And hopefully people are, you know, challenging themselves. Like, it's ego to a certain degree, too, where the actors, like, don't want to be told they're wrong, or they. Their ego starts to go like, oh, this is not how we've done things for the past 30 years. I don't care. I. You know, and I feel like I get it. I've felt that before where I'm like, oh, gosh, like, what if in three years this looks very different? Well, yes, we all do the best with. With the information we have now, but I think we also need to be pushing ourselves and our colleagues to also ask why and get answers and not just leave it at, well, that's all I know. I don't know how else to help you. Yeah, that right there is the biggest problem in healthcare right now.

Yeah, it really is. Like I said, it's kind of that, like, this is all I have. This is, you know what I think, period, you know, like, I said, and like I said this day and time, everybody kind of knows about it. So even if you're a provider, that you're like, whatever, if that mom is sitting there begging for help, then you just refer, you know, like, what. What does it matter?

You know, like, you.

It gives her peace of mind, you know, then. Then whatever, and then let, you know, then be assessed by somebody who, you know, is. Is properly trained. But I feel like a lot of times it's people that are not properly trained that are saying, no, it's not there, or, no, it's not a big deal. And like I said, and then those. Those parents are like, I mean, okay, well, the doctor said that it's fine, so it should be fine. And like, and then that's when you start that hamster wheel of like, so is the baby fine? Or, like, am I making this a problem? And, you know, and that's kind of how I got on that, like, just roller coaster. And I would not wish that. I would not wish our first few months that I had with my daughter on anybody. And I remember telling my mom, like, I feel so guilty because, you know, I have a beautiful, healthy, you know, she's healthy, but, you know, we were struggling, but she was healthy. I was like, you know, I have a beautiful, healthy daughter. And I see people who don't have what I have, they would love for my problem to be their problem. They would love for this to be the worst problem they had. And I remember feeling so guilty. And I remember my mom just, like, encouraging me. She was like, but you are. You're fighting a battle still. Just like those moms are fighting a battle. Like, but you're having to beg somebody to help you. So, yeah, in the grand scheme of things, your daughter isn't as, you know, sick or, you know, whatever. You know, I was feeling all the feelings and all the guilt, all the mom guilt. And she was like, but, you know, you are still dealing with something. Like, you are still her biggest advocate, and you are still standing up for her. And she was like, you know, and you're having to get somebody to help you because everybody's just like, well, I've never heard of this, or it's not a big deal, or we're not even going to look and we're not going to investigate, or, oh, like, this is it in period. And the. The conversation's over. And so that is something that I would. You know, two things that kind of really stuck out to me was my granny, my sweet little granny. She had had A lot of the same difficulties. You know, looking back now, it's the. It's the triple down effect because it's. My mom is so inside, I am my brother. So that's why I. Like, when me. And when I was having all these problems with my daughter, my mom was like, I'm not much help because y' all did the same thing. She was like, but y' all just at least ate enough that you weren't hungry, hospitalized, and, you know, like, you functioned enough, you know, and. But my grandmother had told me, you know, she had, you know, really struggled to get pregnant with my mother. And then when they finally did, you know, of course she wanted to nurse her. She. She couldn't. And she said that somebody told her, you know, you. How you feed your baby is. Is important. You know, you need to, you know, do what you want to do. She's like, but the most important thing is that you feed your baby with love. So if you. So my encouragement is like, if you're a mom that is in that season of, like, your feeding journey did not go how you wanted it to, or you're in the thick of it not going how you want it to go, you know? And, you know, I. I feel like I hate the advice of, like, just feed your baby. A fed baby is a. You know, that's all that matter. You know, fed is best. And it is, you know, we have to meet those. Those nutritional needs, but we also have to meet the needs of the mom, you know, So I don't like to just throw that blanket statement out there, but that was something that my grandmother told me that really kind of guided me in those weeks that we were struggling so much. Like, I said, I hated feeding my daughter because every feed was just like. It was like ripping the band aid of, like, this is not going right. This is a struggle. This is terrible. And I got to where, like, I just dreaded feeding her, like, bottles. Then once we started nursing, I dreaded that. And she was like, you know, you feed your baby with love, and then, you know, whatever the contents of, you know, their nutritional drink is, you know, that does that. That does not matter. You love the way that you get to feed your baby. You love feeding your baby. And I really had to, like, say that to myself over and over because I was not enjoying how things were going. And like I said, and then it was just that. That almost let down of, like, this isn't. This isn't what I wanted, you know, this. This is not how I imagine things would be. And. And, you know, like I said, so I just. I want to encourage a mom that if you're in that season and things are not going like you want to, you know, you. You do come out on the other side. It's a. You know, and like I said, I think it's. I don't think it's a coincidence that a year later I'm sitting here talking to you, because I remember one night just squalling my eyes out and praying and being like, you know, I don't want what I have gone through to be for nothing. So if I can help one mother feel validated and feel confident, to go back in the doctor's office and say, I want a second opinion, to go get a second opinion, to just feel validated that you are. If you are feeding your child, if you're caring for your child, if you're meeting their needs, you are the best mom. You are doing all you can do. And if I can encourage a mom, you know, then this will have been worth it, you know, I wouldn't want to walk down the road again, but it'll be worth it, you know, and then now, like I said, we were hospitalized on October 24th and October 25th. I was probably at the lowest. And here we are a year later, and we're okay. You know, we're thriving at our house. Um, you know, she's. She's doing good, and I'm doing good, and, you know, everything is much better. Um, but, you know, I would just encourage a mom, like, to continue to listen to that instinct that you have. Like, if something is not right and you don't feel like something is right, listen to it. And don't worry what people say, because your responsibility is to your baby. And if you have walked through, like, a season and you see another mom struggling, like, encourage that mom, you know, and even say, hey, like, these are some of the providers we used, you know, anywhere from just your regular pediatrician to a release provider to a body worker, to ots, you know, whatever, and try to be that encouragement to somebody, even if it's somebody that you don't really know, because you never know what impact you have on somebody, and you never know what bit of encouragement that you give someone is really going to. Is gonna matter, and it's gonna help them kind of get over that, that lull that they're in, you know, because it's no fun to be in the Valley. It's no fun to be in the dark season. And then, so sometimes I think that's where our society has fallen so much is that everything is so like, there's no village anymore.

There's no village. There's no roof. You know, it's like, I feel like we're trying to get back to that support moms of the village and also, like, take this root cause approach to things so that we can actually, like, uproot things early on and not have to go through everything that you did. Right. There are things that could have been avoided. And I think that you, you know, you seem very healthy and in a very good place right now. I don't know. I, you know, I was, like, kind of angry for a while where I was like, yeah, that was 24 months when I realized she had a tongue tie. And it should never, ever. And that's because I went to a course. It should never, ever, ever have come to that in 2015. You know, like, I was like, what. What is this? This makes absolutely no sense in my mind. And. And I think that's also where I was like, if I can help put people on a different path, that's what I want to do. And. And that was one of the reasons why a lot of my courses were kind of like, you know, born. I was kind of like, I. I feel like it's almost easier maybe to get through to the professionals that should be treating these patients and open up their eyes to this. And if we can, I was like, sure, I can go talk to parents, but if I can only do a consult, because I'm only licensed in certain places, like, that really restricts the impact I can have. And every impact is amazing. One patient or a hundred or five thousand or whatever. Right? But I think in my brain, I was like, the greatest impact that I could have is getting these kids off waiting lists. And how do I do that? That's also getting them the right providers who have a more holistic approach, who are at least familiar, they've had some training, so if something like, comes up, they can go, you know what? Maybe I don't know how to assess and treat it, but let me refer you to someone who does. Right. It's just, I think just that knowledge is power, right? So. So, yeah, So, I mean, I, I love all this. I think we've had, you know, I think your journey was definitely a bit more the words not intense, but, you know, like, you guys were hospitalized. Like, you know, it's still. You hear so, so, so many stories still these days of these things happening. And I'm like, I just, I look forward to the day where I feel like I'm out of business because. Yeah, it's not an issue anymore. It's not an issue. And, you know, I know. I just. That probably won't ever happen because healthcare. But we can think. Wishful thinking.

Right?

So anyway, so thank you so, so much, Erica, for joining me, for sharing your story. I know this will air probably like five or six weeks after we recorded, but, like, we actually recorded this on October 25, 2023, like, to the day that, you know, as you were saying, and I think that a lot can happen in a year, and I'm so happy that you came out on the other side of it. I know that, you know, you're going through your own courses and certification and things to really be able to help others and recognize a lot of these issues because we also know they carry on across the lifespan because there's so many of us who, like you, I was tongue tied. I didn't breastfeed. Well, you know, it's like there is that epigenetic thing going on here. So, yeah, for sure.

The only thing I want to leave with is just kind of like a twist on, like a little bit of an encouragement and then a little bit of twist on mayo. But it's just something that I'm kind of paraphrasing, but it's Proverbs 18:21, and it says the tongue has the power of life and death. And I think that. So, you know, little twist on my. But I love that because I think we have the power to speak absolute life into people, and we have the power to speak absolute death into people. And every time you open your mouth, you're speaking one of those two things. So as a healthcare provider, as a parent, as a friend to someone, through this podcast, Hallie, you are able to speak life into people and encourage people and just be a light in this time. And I just, you know, that's something that I want to leave people with, is that just think of that. You know, you have the ability to bring somebody up and speak life into them. You know, there's. There's a lot of power in the tongue, you know, from my own perspective. But then just, you know, just day to day, the things we say really do matter and hit home with people sometimes more than we realize. So I just want to be an encouragement, encourage, you know, anybody that's going through that. And I appreciate you having me here and letting me be able to share my. My story. I really appreciate it. You do a lot of good work, Callie.

Well, thank you. And you know, I think it's also really important to have, you know, moms come forward and share their stories because there could be a mom who's nursing and they hear this story in the middle of the night and they're having the same struggles and they've also had similar experiences where. And I do have moms tell me this all the time. I found your podcast and like, thank you so much because it armed me with the knowledge I needed to go have the right conversations and to like almost demand that I get a referral or have, you know, when the pediatrician said to me, oh no, it's not that but like I've heard other people say on your podcast, like, no, no, that is a thing. Like, I, I also then had the encouragement to then push forward because yeah, to what you said earlier, a lot of people just put full 100 faith, trust everything in their doctors. And I'm not downplaying the role of the doctors, but as a pediatric pediatricians typically are generalists, not specialists, as are your, you know, general doctors that you go to. Yeah, you have to, you know, I fully respect them, but also respect professional, you know, specialists at this. They'll all be same and refer out more and let the parent decide if they're going to take that referral versus just not even providing it at all. So I think this is beautiful and I really do hope that and I know it will encourage some moms, providers, others to, you know, hopefully shift their thinking with their working with patients and moms just again, be really empowered, encouraged by your story, your message and I love, you know, I love what you, you ended with. So thank you for that.

I got, I got chills. Yeah.

Well, good.

Okay, well thank you just so much and I just enjoyed talking to you and hopefully encouraging, you know, some people that need encouragement right now. Yay.

Thanks for listening to this podcast. If you found value in this episode and want to hear more of these Myotots, air weight and feedback eating related episodes, be sure to leave a review on Apple podcasts and share this episode on your social media platforms. You can access free resources and all I offer@halliebalkin.com or pop over to Hollybalken on Instagram to get all the latest updates.