Episode 311: The Future of Dentistry and Rethinking Dental Health with Dr. Hilary Fritsch, DMD

Hi and welcome to episode 311 of the Untethered podcast. Today we have Dr. Hilary Fritsch joining us. Dr. Fritsch is a leading airway and biological dentist, one of the very few in the country with deep expertise in proper jaw development and airway health. She's also Montana's premier tooth pillow provider, offering cutting edge non surgical techniques to optimize airway growth and function. Practicing dentistry since 2006, Dr. Frisch has been featured on the Today Show, New York Magazine, Business Insider, Popsugar, Father Lee and Romper. Her passion for wellness is deeply personal, shaped by her own structure, struggles with childhood sleep apnea and a debilitating autoimmune disease that once impaired her ability to see and even walk unassisted. These experiences fuel her commitment to helping patients and their families optimize the health through airway focused dentistry. Dr. Fritch is the founder of Western Sleep Solutions and Saddle Peak Dental, both rooted in the philosophy that oral health is intricately connected to whole body health. She specializes in non surgical airway development and the treatment of sleep apnea, breathing disorders and orthodontic issues that impact long term wellness. Determined to bring the best possible care to her patients, Dr. Fritsch has trained under one of the most elite airway dentists in the world and continuously pursues advanced education in airway aware, orthodontics, occlusion and oral microbiome health. She's an active member of the International Academy of Sleep and other leading organizations dedicated to uncovering the root causes of airway dysfunction. Dr. Frisch is passionate about educating and empowering her patients, both young and old, to take ownership of their health, breathing and longevity.

Quick Disclaimer all information, content and material of this podcast are the opinions and of the speakers and is for the informational purpose only and not intended to serve as a substitute for the consultation, diagnosis and or medical treatment of a qualified healthcare provider. Welcome to the Untethered Podcast. I am your host, Holly Balkan. I'm a certified myofunctional therapist, feeding specialist, podcaster, business owner and mentor. This podcast is all about getting your questions answered and collaborating with colleagues to bring you the most up to date information in the orofacial myofunctional Therapy, Airway Tether, Dural tissue and pediatric Feeding therapy space. If you're new here, I challenge you to keep an open mind and join my mission to spread this message far and wide. If you've been around since June 2019, thanks for being a loyal listener. As we jump into today's episode, remember to listen with correct oral rest, posture, tongue up, lips closed, teeth apart, breathe through your nose.

Let's get started. Hillary, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me, Holly.

I'm excited that we finally are doing this. It's been a long time coming.

Yeah, well, two busy moms. It's hard to find a day.

Yes, for sure. So I'm excited because I've been following you now for a while on. On Instagram, and you're just such a wealth of knowledge. So before we jump in and talk about, you know, all things airway, myo, expansion, whatever, wherever this goes, I would love for you to start by sharing with everybody just how you know a bit about your background and how you got into the airway space.

Yeah, so I've. I've always been a mouth breather. Like, as a kid, I think I had sleep apnea. When I look back, I had like all the classic bedwetting too late, dark circles under my eyes, chronic headaches and stomach aches, earaches, throat infections, all the, all the things, chronic sinus congestion, runny nose, allergies and poor facial development, crowded teeth. And it like, runs in my family. We're like two generations in of no breastfeeding now, so. So, yeah, and then I, like, I think I started to wake up to how airway was related to dentistry and had some patients that were looking for help and started taking a course here and there and then realized that I was like, needing to learn all about airway so that I could help myself because I had sinus surgery 10 years ago and it totally relapsed. So I was like, this isn't the answer. I gotta keep going and to help my kids. And it's just like, for me, it's like way more fulfilling than drilling teeth. I've feel like I've done 20 years of that and I'm just really interested in helping people develop their faces and their airways so much more. And I started to, like, just kind of keep tiptoeing and taking more courses and finding the best mentors and like, so. And it just kept evolving and I feel like I'm finally like, found my passion with this. Like, I've always liked dentistry, but this is just so fun and fulfilling. And so it was just like a natural evolution. I also had an autoimmune disease that was really, really bad. So I went through this whole process of trying to heal myself without doing traditional western medicine, just like injections and steroids and all of that. And so I kind of went down this biological Pathway and the biological and airway Dr. Industry is sort of intertwined because it's a really root cause approach. So as I, like, sort of shed my traditional dentistry and Western medicine belief system and started to kind of step into my own path, it all like, fell in the line together.

Yeah, yeah. I like that you brought up the biological dentistry side of things because I've told a lot of therapists who are like, how do I find a dentist in my area that, you know, maybe they're not doing this yet, but, but they're at least open to learning. Maybe they'll learn, learn alongside me. And I've encouraged them to go find a biological dentist because I'm like, they already think differently and so they may be more open. And it just so happened that one of my closest friends growing up, I had no idea I knew she was a dentist. I had no idea because we, you know, we kind of moved apart a little bit in college and grad school years and all of a sudden we're now married with kids and, you know, chatting here and there, but had no idea that she was a biological dentist. I just knew she did dentistry. And so when I discovered that she and I went and sat in a tongue tie course together and then both started like, diving deeper and deeper into this airway space. And so now she's like one of our primary referral sources, where my practice is up in the D.C. metro area. But it was such a wild ride. And I mean, I always tell people, I'm like, you have no idea unless you ask somebody, because it's not always well documented. I mean, her website's great, but in like, a lot of websites, it's not well documented on, like, I'll find these dentists that have now gone down this rabbit hole, but their sites don't always even reflect it. So, yeah, yeah, biological dentistry, that's.

It's some good stuff. I think it's like, go. It's the future of dentistry, in my opinion. Like, everybody will start to move in that direction as patients kind of force the issue. And as like, more and more research comes out. Like, you know, we're talking a lot about fluoride now and how it's a known neurotoxin. And as more dent. More and more dentists embrace that reality, we will have more and more biological dentists. Because it's kind of like that rabbit hole. You take this one thing and you're like, well, what else is wrong? What else were we taught? You know? Yeah, so biological dentists are sort of hard to find. There's not a ton of us, but I would just say like Google biological dentist in your area and kind of check out their website. You can look at iomt. They have a, like a reference, but you have to pay to be on that. So not everyone does it. So it's more like kind of word of mouth and hunting on the Internet. And I would say just like for airway dentistry, for biological dentistry, it's worth traveling for. The. The failing root canal problem is like the biggest story, I think, in biological dentistry because there are so many people walking around with a root canal that's just leaking nasty bacteria into their bloodstream and their jaws and they feel nothing. So they don't realize. And if you don't take a CT scan of it, you can't tell that there's all that bone loss. And general dentists have become norma to like seeing some bone loss around an old root canal. So we kind of like looked the other way for 20 years. And I just think it's. There's a hidden epidemic of immune issues that come from your body having to deal with that. All those nasties getting into the bloodstream every day. So I think that's also like gonna become more normalized conversation. And the kind of dentistry that people are looking for is someone who's opened their eyes to that. So that'll be evolving along the. Alongside the fluoride issue and the toxins issue that we deal with in dentistry. This mercury, all of that.

Yeah. I feel like I'm hearing more and more, and it's probably just because I'm following all these holistic people on Instagram, but more and more conversations and stories around people who actually fell into the more holistic space because of dental issues and because of, you know, like you said, it was a failed root canal or just autoimmune diseases, things that have been diagnosed and they've been able to somehow tie it back to like, dental work they had or an issue, you know, dentistry wise, that's been going on for years.

Yeah, just in the last year, I have a handful of patients with a story about a little mercury filling that was creating severe depression and anxiety. And like, I kind of can't even believe it myself. I'm like, you really feel that different after we took that filling out and they're like, yes, like, my whole world changed. And so I just think our toxic cups are full. And like, you know, we have to be looking at all of the things that are contributing to the. So that dentistry is like, so obvious. You know, it's been, it's been detached. Like, we act like this thing that's happening in your mouth is so separate from the rest of your body. And airway dentistry is the same. Like, people are really trying to wrap their brains around, like, so sleep apnea is a jaw development issue, you know, but if you can start to think that way, that the mouth is not isolated from everything else, and if you had this giant gaping infection on your hand, you'd do something about it. But because it's in your mouth, like it's hidden and wild, we're getting there. I'm really excited that it's like, social media is weirdly like, very effective tool for awakening people on this stuff.

It really is. It really is. And I, I mean, I feel like when I started my account back in summer of 2019 and I started this podcast back then, I was like, nobody's talking about this on a podcast. Like, I. And I was like, I'm not even the expert, but I feel like I know enough people and I, I'm bold enough to go out and ask enough people to like, hey, come be a guest on my podcast and share your knowledge. And so it was so sort of like partially self serving, but then also like, I know a lot of other people want access to this information. Right. So I started the podcast and, and it's been, it's been cool because I feel like I've seen the evolution like, slowly over the past five years or so where, you know, there's more and more people who have fallen in, if you will, into like this, this space. Right. The dentists and orthos even, and speech pathologists and registered dental. The registered dental hygienists and OTs and PTs and now chiropractic and just, it's just very interesting to see because, like, the one thing that you mentioned that just holds so true is like we talk in other spaces about how like our mouth is basically our window into our health. Like, they talk about it when it comes to Alzheimer's. Right. So why is it so unbelievable that it could be causing any of all these other health issues? You know, I just feel like it's. People are surprised.

Yeah. I think we just have to change the narrative. Like, it's been kind of this isolated issue for so long and like, little by little, people are starting to think of it differently.

Yeah, yeah. Now the other thing you mentioned too, so you had had like your experience with sinus surgery 10 years ago and all that fun stuff. In my experience, I. Mine wasn't sinus surgery, but I had nasal surgery. And this was now, I think it was 20, 22. So almost three years ago. April will be three years. And I had done tongue tie release, adult expansion. Myo. I had had expansion and braces as a kid. I had permanent retainers behind my upper and lower teeth that were removed. I asked for them to be removed when I turned 30. So almost 10 years ago. And everything started to immediately shift. And when I said something to my dentist, he was like, no, no, you're fine. I'm like, no, my bottom teeth are turning. I see it, I see it. I'm a little vain. I don't want that to happen. And he was kind of like, ah, it's fine, everything's fine. And well, went into adult expansion, worked on straightening things out. Anyways, all that to say I feel like I did things almost in the wrong order because then three years ago I had nasal surgery. I had my septum fixed. It was turned kind of, you know, towards the back, left more posteriorly. I had like a bump on my nose from pregnancy, which I had like shaved down. I ended up having a rhinoplasty at the same time. So I was like, I know this can be an open procedure, but let's just, you know, put me under, do the whole thing.

Yeah.

I was like, I don't need a skinny little, like fake looking nose. I just want a straight one without the big bump on it now because. Hi. You know, sleep apnea definitely is more pronounced in pregnancy for some women that have airway issues. That was me. And then my nasal turbinates were reduced and my knee. I had nasal swell bodies reduced, which I had never even heard of before. But I was like, oh. So we got things growing from the inside out, from the outside in, like. And I really can't breathe out of the left side of my left nostril at all.

Cool.

Which was interesting because I was years into this space already and had no idea that my nasal breathing was that impacted until I had the scans done and some home sleep tests and all that. And I presented as like your uars, right? Upper Airway Restrictive syndrome did not present like somebody with sleep apnea. So most normal people would just ignore me in the medicine world. Right. And so you're fine. And anyways, we knew I wasn't fine. I was never entering REM sleep. Like, every time I would start to enter, I would just jolt right out of it, but never actually come fully awake. So I wasn't having these, like, major arousals that like, you know, or gasping for air type of moments. But anyways, very fascinating. It did improve after the nasal surgery, but now I've been like. And I don't know if you have opinions on this, but now I've been looking into, like, what else do I need to do? Do I have enough space? Because my tongue is generally up. But I'll find myself, you know, sometimes biting my tongue, pushing it between my teeth, upper, lower.

Um.

And like, yeah, there is enough room in my upper jaw for my tongue technically to rest, but when fully at rest, it seems to spill over. Um, so I like the whole marpy discussion. I don't know if you have, like, thoughts or opinions on, like, marpy and all that, but because. Is that what you did? I did not. No, I did not do it. I know an or.

Huh. So how did you do expansion?

I use the DNA Vivo suppliance.

Oh, okay.

Yeah. And I liked it. It was really bulky. I'm not the. I'm a good patient, but I'm not the best patient because I can't wear it 16 hours a day or 14 hours or whatever they wanted me to do. I'm a speech pathologist. I'm working. Right. So I would put it in at night and maybe get eight hours a day out of it, like, while sleeping, basically. And so it took me two years to go through that. Two, two and a half years. I also noticed about halfway through, my body was, like, locking up. So I was working with a PT who was like, you know, pri trained and did some other counter strain type of stuff. And I would notice, like, I. He was in their office too. So I would see him there and between my dental appointments, and I would notice my body would release and I could crank the appliance further after I saw him. So that was really cool. So I, like. I liked it. I don't know that I'm willing to go through that whole thing again, because afterwards I did Invisalign, and apparently the last couple trays of Invisalign will kind of retract you a bit. And so I think I actually ended up retracting myself.

Well, only if they are. Did your airway dentist design your Invisalign?

They did. They did. But I feel like there was some education around that that, like, was coming out at that same time.

Yeah.

Where people were like, this was like, I know, 2018 a while ago.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, I think people were like, oh, don't. The last two to three trays, you know, of the Invisalign or something. I was like, I just finished that information.

You could go in reverse and, like, wear them backwards. But I mean, I don't find that to be the case with my clear aligners. But I do think. I don't use Invisalign anymore. I don't like that product as much. Okay. But also, like, this. This field is evolving so quickly. Like, yeah, 2018 was a different story than right now, you know? Yeah. But do you like Marpi or. No, I don't do marpy. I do vivos.

Okay.

And I've been seeing lately, like, a lot of scary Marpi cases where I'm like, oh, God. Like, they either went too far or there's a lot of asymmetries in the expansion.

Interesting. Pediatrics and adult or like, more adult that you're seeing, like, the adults.

I feel like the kids, like, expand nicely.

Yeah.

I don't really feel like we're seeing a lot of asymmetries in kids.

Okay. Because I have that asymmetry right now where, like, my max was turned in on the left side a little bit. And it's. But it's been like that for years. So that's where I was kind of like, do I need to actually, like, do I need to split down the suture or do I need to, like, change something? Because it doesn't align.

Your midlines are off, you mean?

And it's. We used to think it was a lower jaw, and then we realized it's not. It's actually my maxilla and it's more turned in on the left side.

Okay.

Yeah.

Like, it's not. Doesn't line up with your nose.

Yeah. Anyways. But I don't know that I'm even a candidate for Murphy. So it was a discussion we had, and then they were like, I don't. Because of the nose job. They were like, because of the rhinoplasty. You're not. Your nose will probably, like. I think there's a concern that it would collapse with splitting the suture of the palette.

Yeah.

I'm like, well, that's off the table now.

Well, imagine trying to do your job with a marpian.

Right.

I mean, that's the other thing is I was like, there. This feels like I wouldn't want to do that myself. I like the non surgical approach of vivos.

Yeah.

I like that you can take it off and talk normally. I think it's gentler. So it's a little bit less invasive and potentially less risky.

Yeah.

But I don't know. I don't like, worry too much about midlines. But I'm talking, like, major facial asymmetries where we saw this side go and this one didn't. Or like, like the jaw. Just the asymmetries of the jaw are, like, noticeable with the lips closed. I think some people are moving their Marty too fast maybe. But I'm not a MARP Mar B expert. But that seems to be, like, what's happening.

Yeah.

Because you can get changes pretty quickly with that thing.

Yeah. So, okay, so you use the vivo. The vivo cna. What do you do afterwards? Because, like, after mine, I had all these gaps, and obviously it's like, we don't. I mean, for vanity purposes, some people want to close those gaps. Right. So that we don't have big gaps between our teeth. But also you do kind of retract in closing some of those open spaces, don't you?

You don't have to. No, I use candid clear aligners, and we just, like, move the teeth together. Okay. So ideally, no retraction. In fact, we can even get more expansion with the clear aligners if we want. Clear aligners are not going to remodel the palate.

Right.

So if we want to remodel the palate or improve cheekbones, then and, like, get more forward growth, I'm going to use the DNA or the MMRNA or a vivos device. But if we just need to make the mouth. If the patient can breathe through their nose really well, and we just need to make the mouth bigger because we need to improve the tongue space. I always tell patients, like, picture your mouth is the garage for your tongue. If the garage is too small, it's going to be hanging back into the airway. So if all we have to do is just make more room for that tongue. Clear aligners work really great. Like, I can make a lot of room with those.

Yeah.

So if your nose is working really well, I would say, and you wanted a little bit more expansion, you would just do clear aligners. But so here's my thing about nose surgeries is a lot of times they're relapsing.

Yeah.

But I think. And there's not really, like, good research on this yet, but I think potentially what is happening is we're fixing the nose, but we aren't establishing a good nasal breathing habit. And so it's becoming congested again. You know, it's, like, designed to have airflow going through it all day and all night. And if it doesn't, it's going to become congested again. And, you know, It'll relapse. So I feel like if the patient did myofunctional therapy and use a device or mouth tape or something to ensure that they were mouth breathing all night, maybe we could start preventing the relapses. What do you think about that?

Yeah, I mean, I totally agree. I think that MYO should go hand in hand with expansion. You know, whether you're just moving teeth or you're. I mean, you're saying if you're shifting teeth with like a clear aligners and you're going to want to have had established nasal patency anyways. Right. So we're talking more like the DNA vivos type of cases where we're actually expanding bone outside of the teeth. Yeah, 100% need to be doing myo. We also like to establish like a nasal hygiene protocol. So I'm kind of curious to know like, what your protocol is. And this is sort of for my own kids. I'm wondering because, you know, when I did my nasal surgery, I started to nasal rinse. Right. Because around the procedure, that's what you do. And I feel like now my. So my kids were like, oh, I want to do that, I want to do that. I was like, okay. So I got them your little like, you know, kids Neil Med nasal rinse bottles. We have it on like auto ship from Amazon. It comes like every three months. We get a new bottle and whatever, and they do it like almost every morning. But now it's interesting because, like, I do feel like if we, like when we travel, we'll take it too, especially when we're on an airplane. But they sometimes don't do it and then they'll get sick. So I'm convinced, like, we should keep doing it. However, then they'll do it. And like my Younger1, who's 7, she's like, it burns. It burns. And I'm like, am I destroying the inner lining of her nose? Like, should I stop doing this?

I mean, that's why I don't use a Neil Med, because I find that it burns. I feel like I can't get the temperature of the water just right. And I'm always like, dang it, too hot. Or, you know, somehow it's, it's. My nose is too sensitive to it. I really like that exclear spray. It's also just like, you know, easy. Like you don't have to mix anything. Yes. And you have to clean anything. You just, you know, start a new bottle. But I would say do it before bed because you want to really make sure. The nose is nice and open. I mean, it doesn't hurt to do it in the morning, but I think making sure it's nice and open before bed is really key. I like to do a hot shower, blow your nose, spray the. Not Neil. The Axlear, or Neil, if you like. Neil Med. Use it just.

Yeah, we have the X layer, too, so we just kind of fell out of using that one. So I'm like, we can. We should probably swap it up.

I feel like they're both good. For me, the Axler is just really easy.

Yes.

And I. I mean, like, my bedtime routine's already getting kind of long these days, so I'm like, I'll need easy. I'm also not opposed to using flonase for a short period of time to help, like, you know, this cold and flu season's been pretty gnarly. Everybody's been stuffed up, so just to, like, kind of nip things in the bud. But that is a steroid, so I don't want patients using it for a long time. But like a two weeks of flonase before bed. Blow, spray, blow. If you tasted it, you wasted it. That's a pretty good nasal hygiene routine.

Okay.

And I like to do some Buteyko breathing exercises right before bed, too, to just help open the nose. And so you're, like, kind of encouraging your body to do everything right, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

While you. While you're unconscious.

How young do you work with Are you. Do you see, like, all pediatrics, like, through it?

Oh, I work with all ages, but age three is, like, the beginning of where we can really start doing something.

Yeah.

Before age 3, it's kind of just like counseling mom and dad on some tips, you know?

Yeah.

But age three, starting with my functional therapy and a tooth pillow, I think it should be kind of like the gold standard. Like, every kid should get evaluated. Let's make sure they're breathing through their nose. Let's make sure they have good tongue, posture. We can prevent all these developmental, facial developmental issues if we start really young. So that's. I'm a huge fan of that. As they get older, we do. Or depending on how affected their sleep is, we do some fixed expanders, upper lower, fixed expanders, and then clear aligners as needed. And sometimes back in a tooth pillow, because that's like, after the expansion and the nose starts to open. That's great. But we need to now make sure they're using their nose again.

Yeah, it sounds similar to my kids. So we started when we were up north, we did the ALF on my now nine year old, but she was four at the time, which was actually amazing. It was also at the beginning, it was overlapped with, with the pandemic. So that was a little tricky from like a body work standpoint. So we did none of that. Um, because by the time we were getting into it and I was having appointment, we were doing appointments, it was like, oh, no, everything shut down. Um, but we did start her in August, like right when she turned 4. And she went in three months. Like, her tonsils were gone and they were almost kissing. And so I. And this was like cold and flu season up north, where it gets cold and everyone gets sick, right? And so I was like, okay, there's something cool going on here. And so she was in it for a year. We got some really beautiful expansion herself. Sinuses cleared. I was like, I, I'm in, I'm all in. I'm sold. And then we moved. When do we move? Like a year later. So maybe a year after she came out of it, but we ended up going to a dentist down in North Miami and they put her into a hyrax with like a forward growth component that the dentist created for the appliance to do a little more expansion. She did great. And then they put her into a myo brace afterwards to kind of like hold the expansion. But, like, she cannot keep that thing in her mouth. Like, she, she has it in, she'll go to sleep with it. She will gag it out like every single night. About an hour into sleeping. And I'm like, what gives? So we kind of gave up on that. Whereas my Younger 1 was 4 when we. Well, she was 3 when we moved down here. So at 4, she went into. Went straight into the hyrax. Because this is a kid who had croup nine times as a three year old. She'd had her entire infancy into toddlerhood. They were constantly putting her on steroids every single time. And I was like, something has got to give. This is not healthy for her. Like, like this poor little inflamed, like, child at like age three. So anyways, at four, she's like, initially she was like, let's start her on a myo brace. And then I told her what was going on. She had a really deep bite. She was grinding her teeth down. And she was like, no, we're gonna put her straight into rapid because she's kind of in an emergent situation. So she went into the same thing that my, my older one went into. She did Some buildup on her back teeth to prevent her from like continuing to grind down and everything. And then she went into the myobrace afterwards and she was like a perfect little myo brace wearer at night, would wear it all night long and then she moved up to the next size and then all of a sudden there was mold in the appliance. And like we wash this thing every day and we like to sit out and air dry. And I think it was because like a component of it broke inside from her chewing on it, which is what they want you doing, right? Yeah. And I don't know, it somehow poked a little hole in the plastic and mold developed and I was like mortified. I was like, I bought a new one. And then we never like. But I think it kind of reminds me what you were saying because like the tooth pillow and like the myobrace, the idea of like guiding growth continue now that we have expansion and kind of just supporting the jaws during sleep. Is that kind of the idea behind using tooth pillow after expansion?

Yeah, I like to use it as like a habit forming device after. And it can also work really well for retention. So like after the expansion, we use it to make sure that we're continuing to have that good tongue posture and the jaws in the right place because it helps you posture your mandible forward and. And it kind of works like a retainer. So most of the kids who can't really wear it at night and keep it in all night, they need to be wearing it more during the day to get the muscles strong enough to keep it in at night. And typically that gag reflex goes away when we do expansion.

But sometimes what it is, yeah, she doesn't have like a hyper gag reflex normally. So I'm like, I have no idea if like saliva is just pooling or her tongue's falling back or what's happening.

Well, have you tried mouth tape with her?

I haven't. I think I like, it freaks me out a little bit because of her whole like, you know, coughing it out in the middle of the night and I'm like afraid to like tape her mouth. So I mean, I could try it with her during the day. I'm, I'm like one of those hesitant.

Don't use the mouth, don't use the myo brace and just use just like a myo tape so she can still breathe and move her lips. But it would like encourage her to keep them lips closed. Then I think you kind of check the box like if you know she has good tongue Posture and she's keeping her lips closed. You should.

Yeah. And I would say my kids both have closed mouth postures when sleeping, unless they're sick at this point. So, you know, would you still recommend like, trying mouth tape if you feel like the kid's mouth is closed or you really. You're only doing that for a closed lip?

I'm doing it to just keep. Make sure they're keeping their lips closed. So if you feel confident that they're keeping their lips closed and breathing through their nose, and I don't think you need to do it.

Yeah.

I also, like, hesitate to recommend it because it's not for everyone. You know, it can be dangerous. You need to know that their nose works and you know that they're not overweight because the, the weight on the stomach can actually create this hypoxia. But it can be a good tool to ensure that they're nasal breathing or see if you're nasal breathing, you know?

Yeah.

Besides, like setting up an iPad and recording them all night and then watching it back.

Yeah.

So many people think their kids are nasal breathing all night. And I'm like, I know they're not. Or their teeth would not be this crowded and their soft palate wouldn't be inflamed and their tonsils wouldn't be like that, you know, so. Yeah, it is hard to tell, but like, you're in the space. You know, I can, like, if I sleep with my kids, I'll be like, oh, yeah, it's kind of.

I admittedly fall asleep in her bed probably 50% of the time because I'm tired and I'll. She's the kiddo. Where it's like, she wants us to be like, in the bed with her when she's falling asleep. And it takes her an hour to fall asleep. So, yeah, you know, as she's kind of winding down and we're talking and all that, and she finally falls asleep, like an hour later, I'll find myself like, waking up.

And I know that's so hard because I'm like, there's no way I'm going to lay down at 8:30 and not fall asleep. Like, I am tired too.

Yeah. Welcome to my life. I mean, half the time my husband and I are like, we roll over and like, the bed's empty. I'm like, that person is asleep in Lily's bed. Totally fell asleep, putting her to sleep. And half the time I'm like, I could get up and walk downstairs to our room, but then I'm going to Be fully awake. So I'm just going to roll over and go back to sleep.

Literally happened to me last night. I was like, I'm not getting up because I don't want to be that awake. Like, this is kind of fine. I don't have my favorite body pillow, but, like, I'll make it work. Yeah.

Oh, man. Kids, I'll tell you. Okay. No, this is all interesting. So are you, I guess. So, in our. In the little ones that you're starting this, the tooth pillow with. Right. How long are they usually staying in the tooth pillow before they might actually go into further expansion or kids not needing further expansion? Like, what are you seeing from that?

It just depends on each kid. Like, it's two years of treatment and like, if they got molded, I would be like, here's a new one. You know, like, no big deal. But I feel like it just depends. So sometimes we'll bookend expansion with myobrace or Vivos guide or whichever one is appropriate choice appliance for their bite. To me, that's a really nice way to, like, before the expanders go in, train the tongue to get up there. That way after the expansion, we kind of like, get it back quickly and. And then we, you know, it just bookends the process really nicely. But a lot of times, like, if we start young enough and the kid isn't too restricted, we can just do a tooth pillow and we don't have to go into expanders. We don't have to do any ortho because the teeth are going to fall into place like they're meant to.

Yeah.

So it's really specific on, like, what we came into the situation with. Yeah, but what the fee is for two years.

Okay. Yeah. No, it's all very interesting. It's like thinking back to my kids and the first one who I did the ALF with, I feel like that gentle, slow expansion that she got changed her health, but it also, I think, allowed for her teeth to start falling out. Because my kids were both late to get their teeth, which I know means they're going to be late to lose their teeth. You know, it's just sort of like this whole, you know, down the pike. So we kind of. I don't want to say we caught up, but we. We started to kind of normalize that timeline a little bit more with the expansion. And, you know, and my younger one too, because it was like their friends were losing teeth left and right. And look, looking at my kid and I'm like, what's going on?

Age. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

But it's really cool. It's. I mean, I. So my friend who has a biological pract in. In Maryland, she's the one who did Lily's alf. And so afterwards, I was like, can we do another cbct? I want to see. I want to see the results. And she's like, I mean, we can, but we don't have to expose her to any more. Like, you know, she's like, you know, it's just a little bit of, like, radiation, but, like, we don't have to. And I was like, it's fine. I want. I want the hard data. I want to know that this worked and I want to see where she's at. And it's really cool because I share, I have, I think, an Instagram highlight where you can see, like, her before and after. I put some of the before and after images next to each other where, like, you can see her sinuses are completely cleared in her nasal airway. And it's amazing. And then you can see the growth she got in her upper, you know, palette. And you can just. You just see, like, the kid looks completely different. Her posture changed. Like, it just. She looks like a different child in the span of nine.

That's amazing. I gotta look up that reel.

Yeah, I find it.

But having a good ALF provider is hard to find. Like, I see, like, you got really lucky to have a good friend who knows what she's doing. Because I see some people are like, in that thing for years and it's not. It's very technique sensitive.

Well, and I. Because I know there's providers who will actually. Who say, like, they keep the kids in it until they're in their teens, they start them young, and they just change it out as they grow and put in a new one. And I was like, this is more of a stepping stone for us. Like, I'm not saying that we. I didn't know if we would need something else or not, but I was like, this is for the. Right now. Like, I know she's going to grow and I know it's probably not going to be the end all. Be all. But for right now, how do we get her airway healthy? And, you know, then we'll. We took it. And honestly, I think she was technically done after like nine months, but it stayed in because of COVID and we took it out. August 2020. What was that, 21? No, August 2020. It was still maybe during COVID that we took out the appliance because we moved a year later. And so we never really went back anything because that. That area was still very, very shut down for a very, very long time. Schools did not open at all that year. It was wild. But anyways, so, yeah, I mean, it was just very cool. She was also training through the Alpha Education Institute with Bronson and family. And I think used Lily's case, like as her case that she was, you know, so I think there were other eyes on her case too. But I think she was also just in easier case because she was four. So it was sort of like a, you know, oh, we can make this little tweak. Wow, look at that. Huge difference that made kind of thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

Yeah. So I'm very grateful for.

Were you doing craniosacral work or would you have if you had not been?

I would have. Yeah, I would have. We did not because we just. By the time, like we were kind of getting into it and I figured out like, who to take her to because it was actually really hard to find people in my area that were doing that.

Yeah, that's very hard to find everywhere.

Yeah. So I did find a do. They were a couple and they actually moved back and now they're moving away again, unfortunately. But the husband is like a. He's PT Trained, but he's also a do. But I think he was trained in Germany and so whatever. I think his PT was recognized in the US but not his D. O. Whereas she's a trained D. O through the US and they're a husband, wife, team. And it wasn't until I had Mia and Mia was around a year old and wasn't she just was like dragging a leg behind her as my second one. And, you know, feeding went well and her airway looked like it was okay at that point. I was like, but we're definitely headed towards some expansion. I took her to them and then they. I think they moved at that point. They've anyways they would go and teach and in Germany. And now her family's on the west coast and they're moving to the west coast and they moved back and they moved away. And so it was just. I took Mia. Mia must have been 13 months. She was not walking yet. She was not scaling furniture. She wasn't really even pulling herself up or anything. And we had been in PT on and off for like six months. And I was like, yeah, this is not really doing anything. And so I stopped it. I took her to craniosacral therapist and then like a week later took her to the the dos. And within, like, the next day after the DO appointment. So I don't know which one it was or if it was a combination. She stood up and started scaling furniture, and within a week, she was walking. Like, she also then after that, was crawling on all fours finally across our couch. And I was, like, hysterical. Like, my husband's like, what's the big deal? She can walk. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's an unstable. It's an unstable surface, and she's crossing midline, and everything is integrating. We didn't just skip crawling. This is huge. You have no ide. And so I'm, like, very, very thankful and grateful to them that the craniosacral therapist is still local. But. Yeah, so it's just been, like, one of those, like, really challenging things to find.

Yeah, I'm a. I'm a big fan. We have two osteopaths here in Bozeman that are really talented craniosacral work, and I think it's really helpful to preventing those asymmetries and, like, just making sure everything's moving like it should be. Yeah. And they, like, are magical. I don't even know how they do it. Like, they'll be like, oh, your ribs are really tight right here. And I'm like, how did you know? Yeah, yeah. And I was asking them the other day. I was like, dude, how did you learn this? Like, how can you feel that? And they were. I think. I think they both told me, like, it took, like, four years, and then one day, it just clicked, and I could start to feel it. I'm like, that is four years of, like, on. All of a sudden, you're like, oh, I feel this. And then I don't know how they do that. Magic. But, you know, I have, like. I'm doing. I told you. I'm doing the DNA right now. And I have this suture here is really tight and hard to expand, and I can kind of feel like this side of my face is not expanding as nicely as this side. And so I'm. I'm actually going today after this to go get some craniosacral work done. And I think that we have to, like, pair those things together, really, like, for an ideal case, some people, you know, expand really nice. But a lot of us have, like, these imbalances where things are just not moving exactly how they should. Should be. And anywhere in the body, I'm like, obviously, I'm talking about the head mostly, but, like, this craniosacral therapist Been helping my mom a ton with this leg pain that she couldn't figure out anywhere else. And so, you know, I like the old way of thinking in dentistry. What I was taught is put a fixed retainer in because the sutures are closed and nothing moves. And we were really wrong about that.

Yeah.

I like to point to this. Like, Elon Musk has that company where they put little electrodes in your brain to, like, help someone who's a quadriplegic.

Yeah.

Communicate. And they put them in and fixed them in place, like, sewed them in or. I don't know exactly how they did it, but it wasn't long before the brain had, like. They were out of place by 2 millimeters because the brain had moved. And what they're realizing is there's, like, a pulse to the brain. Obviously, like, every night, this. This CSF goes in and cleans up the brain, and we have that glymph lymphatic system. And so our skulls are actually moving to accommodate also, like, a concussion or whatever. So what we thought was, like, this fixed suture is wrong. That's an old paradigm. We need to start thinking about the head as having, like, a pulse to it, and so the craniosacral therapist can just make sure that all of that is moving and balanced like it should be. And so if you're doing, like, that kind of work at a young age and helping, like, I think that, like, to your point about how, like, suddenly you felt like the teeth were starting to fall out, I think we're getting the blood flowing again and, like, helping. I don't. I don't exactly know how to describe it, but we're helping create this balance that we're supposed to have so that things aren't locked up and locked in places. Yeah.

Well. And so the guy that I would see, Manny, he was a physical therapist by trade, but, like, not doing any, like, really traditional PT stuff. He had gone through PRI and he got trained there, but then he had done umpteen hours of, like, continuing ED and just learning all these different types of modalities. And so his business was unlocking your body, and he was in. He. And then also there was another PT that also had learned similar things. And I think actually now teaches for pri, though, that were both in the dentist's office on different days, and they both have their own practices, and, like, would see you in between if you wanted to, like, in their own facility. But they. It was just incredible. Like, he would map things on my brain. Like, he would Just come up here and feel things. And he'd be like, oh, I got to go here on your body and do this. And he would, like, come over, push him. Like, ow. How'd you know? Like, I didn't even know it. And the craziest part was, like, he'd be like, oh, your chest is tight. We need to, like, open the airway here, too. And, like, he would come here and do some work, right? And I would be like, I had no idea. But, like, now I feel that tension released. And it was cool because, like you said, everything was flowing. And, like, whether it's like, your blood or the lymphatic system, I could feel it pulsing in my body. And he was like, only about 30% of people can really, like, feel that when it happens. But he'd be like, do you feel that? Do you feel? I'm like, yes, I do feel like things are flowing. Like, what? And I would walk out of there feeling like I had this full body massage. I'm like, he barely touched me.

Like, But I know it's magic.

It's ma. It's absolute magic. And like I said before, like, I could not crank my appliance sometimes. Like, I could not turn the DNA key. Like, I could turn it. It wasn't going in my mouth, and I would see him, and then it was like, I could crank it, like, one and a half times sometimes. Like, it was not that I was cranking it that fast, but it was like, holy cow, this is. I clearly, like, this just tells you. Everything was so locked up, so tight, and now that everything is, like, flowing again and speaking to each other and the suture lines are able to, you know, do what they need to do now, we can continue to move forward. And that was, like. That really became super noticeable about a year in. And again, I was in this for two years, so about 50, 50% of the way through my process, but it was eye opening to me. And then I started telling all my patients. I was like, I can't explain it. All I know is that you need some body work, and we got to find somebody, because the thing is, he would work with, like, teens on up, but not, like, younger kids. And so it was still really challenging to find someone. And I know there are people now down here in Boca. There's actually somebody that I've been wanting to, like, take the kids to because she's supposed to be phenomenal. She does cst. And so I need to. I need to get on that because I think it's just Good for everybody to have, regardless of expansion or not. But yeah, it's incredible.

I take the kids to those two doctors here and I find that it's really helpful with like, all kinds of little aches and pains that they have from skiing or. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know what happens to them, but sometimes they'll just have like growing pains or whatever and it's. Or post concussions. My boys have both had a bunch of concussions, unfortunately, and they're just wild. I don't know what they're hitting their heads on the playground on pipes. What are you doing? You know? But yeah, I found so. Because I think I was a mouth breather forever. I think my apnea turned into this autoimmune disease, which is a spinal arthritis, due to, like, just my body being overloaded with too much stress from all those things together. But I get a lot of pain through here and in my ribs. And so when I get craniosacral work, he's always like, oh, your ribs are so stuck. And he's like, you need to just start doing, like, deep breaths and trying to expand into them. So I've been doing that laying in bed at night just like, not long. I mean, honestly, I'll fall asleep probably. It's like a minute of like, deep breath here, deep breath there, and I can feel it changing. And I think I was just like super locked up because I wasn't breathing with my diaphragm for all those years and I really wasn't taking deep breaths and I was kind of just doing this shallow mouth breathing. So it's funny how that is all related and that that diaphragmatic breathing is so important to moving the lymph. It's kind of like pumping the lymph in the body, which is probably why I always had, you know, throat infections and stuff. And so I just. This is why I'm so passionate about this field. Like, it all, like, circles back to becoming this, like, big picture, really life changing work.

Yeah, everything I just always go back to, like, you know, aside from the fact that I say we're connected from the tip of our tongue to the tip of our toes. And like, it's just everything impacts everything else. It's such a domino effect. And I feel like I had a lot of that too. Like, I had strep throat. I was prone to strep throat growing up, and I was definitely like, when I look back at it now, like, you're saying, like, I was breathing from my, like, clavicular area. I was not breathing from my chest even. It was like, like so high up here that it was so short and, you know, not from my, my diaphragm at all. And very interestingly, with my second pregnancy, like I had an injury at that point I was breathing better because I'd gone to Manny between kids and he was like, oh, no, we're going to prep you for your next pregnancy and I'm going to continue to see you so that we make sure that you're breathing properly. Because it just made everything so much harder when you have a baby pushing on the diaphragm and you're already not using it like properly.

Hello.

So I was, I was much more comfortable in my second pregnancy, but then I was over, like stretched by a chiropractor and I had a, A, like rib injury from that. And I noticed with my breathing, like how like it kind of sent me back into more shallow breathing because of not wanting to expand the rib cage with a baby pushing on it. Yeah. So anyways, I had to then work through it again to get back, you know, after the injury was healed to basically move back into that deeper breathing again. And it was such a focus of my second pregnancy. And I don't think I've really talked about that much. I didn't really think about it now until you even brought this whole thing up. But that's one of the things you do.

How did you get your breathing better?

I mean, I was just focused on deep breaths. I was focused on deep breaths. I was seeing Manny. I switched to a different chiropractor that I saw in my first pregnancy that was less holistic but didn't enter me. And I went to the first one because one, it was covered by my insurance initially and I was having trouble getting up off of the floor because I was in pain. And I was working with kids still and I was sitting on the floor working a lot of like little toddlers and 3 year olds and 4 year olds. And I was like, I can't get on the floor and I can't get off the floor and I barely can go up and down the stairs. I'm in so much pain. They're like, it's not sciatica. I'm like, I think it is. But he fixed me in like three sessions and adjusted things. And so I really liked him. But in my brain I'd gone like, so, so holistic, like at that point. And so it was hard for me to even go to this practice. So I wanted to Go to the holistic one that was down the street from my house. I was like, this should be the place I go. And I just had a bad experience, and neither here nor there. But I ended up switching back to them. And between them and Manny, my PT with the PRI training and all the other stuff, the two of them. He gave me some breathing exercises. He would give me a balloon, and I don't even remember what he had me doing, but he was like, I want you to do this so we can, you know, keep the chest expanded. And we're not, you know, things are not tightening up. And we just really worked on chest expansion and deeper breaths, even with that baby, you know?

Yeah.

Hanging tight in there.

Yeah. I feel like I. I like to have, like, a coach and some kind of routine, but it's not necessarily even that complicated. Like, me laying in bed, literally doing 10 deep breaths, and, like, really kind of, let's feel it on this side, then feel it here, then feel it. You know, that's, like, all it's taken to just loosen up my ribs.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and that's, you know, one of the first things that. That we look at on a myo eval. I mean, kids, too, but especially, like, a lot of the adults, you can see it so easily on the adults is where are they breathing from? Are they breathing from their clavicle? And. And you can ask. And sometimes kids will point. They'll be like, I feel it here. And they can feel it in their chest. And you don't see the belly moving, so, you know, they're not doing that deep belly breathing. Right. But it's always. It was always so fun, like, to teach a kid how to belly breathe. Like, we would, like, lay them on the ground and put something on their belly and be like, let's see if we can make this fall off. Right? And just something silly where it's like, fill that belly up. Let's make it like a balloon. And, you know, the thing would fall off, and they would think it was so funny. And, you know, it's literally just telling them to inflate their bellies, like, breathe here instead of here. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I think it can be so simple. It doesn't have to be complicated at all. I think it's just half the issue is just bringing awareness.

Yeah, I feel like that, too. I see that with patients all the time, where I'm like, well, think about this. And then they come back and they're like, dude, I thought about that for two weeks. It's a thing, you know, and you're like, all right, what are we going to, like, what are we going to do? Let's work on it, you know, and it just awakens. I. I'm sure with kids, like, it's so much easier to get results, you know. How much breathing stuff do you do? You guys do some Buteyko? Like what?

Yeah, we definitely use some Buteyko. Like, I'm not treating right now, but my team will use that. One of the mentors inside, so I have the MYO membership and I have like a mile course in mile certification. One of the mentors inside our membership is like Buteyko trained, certified, whatever she is, Caitlin. And so she definitely implements the Buteyko stuff all the time and her recommendations too. So. Yes, 100. Love Patrick and everything he teaches as well.

Yeah, cool.

Yeah.

Can you tell me about some tongue tie stuff? Because I feel like we. I lean on the myofunctional therapist a lot for that. I just tell patients, like, look, they're gonna tell you if you need it and when. I'm gonna wait till like you get like a plateau in your, you know, progress and then we can talk about getting it done. And then it seems to me like there's like kind of like two good times to do it, like right at birth. And then, you know, maybe when they're older and they can tolerate the doing myofunctional therapy and the whole process around it. But what are your thoughts about timing?

So as far as ages go, like, I think it really, what I've seen is like certain providers prefer like certain ages sometimes, but we'll do any age. Yes. I think it's totally easier when they're an infant, a young infant, especially like under 5, 6 months of age. And then obviously if they're older and we can do like more traditional myo, like four or five, six, you know, that's going to be easier than like your 2 and 3 year olds. But a lot of times our providers will like place a suture or a couple sutures in like a toddler's mouth so that we don't have to worry about like them being non compliant and it healing on itself.

Yeah.

Either from like an active wound care standpoint with the parents, you know, getting in there and. Or the MYO exercise side of things. Um, but like optimal timing, like my rule of thumb is kind of like what you said. Right. First we'll intervene and try, you know, to do therapy and if we're hitting a wall, we're Gonna have that release consult we're gonna recommend. You know, they go for the consult oftentimes, like, in my practice, at least a lot of these kids within three to four sessions. So, like, three weeks on average. We know. We know if we're gonna move forward with, you know, if we need. If we think we need a release or we don't. Like, we can't say they need it, but what we're referring forward, and we typically are not referring unless we believe that it's needed. So our, like, referral providers know, like, hey, if they're sending them, like, it.

Needs to be done, right?

So. So there's that side of it. The other side of it is, like, we don't love them going in and having it done, like, same day. We like to, like, really prep the family, like, have them do the consult first and then set a time, make sure the child and family is truly ready. Because so often we see a lot of these families that are not properly propped and they're kind of, like, freaking out afterwards. Like, I don't want to hurt them, or I don't know if I'm doing this right. We're like, well, you should have known all that before you had the procedure, because now is not the time to figure that out. Yeah, that's not fun for anyone. And then body work, like, one of the really big things that early on in my career, we did not recommend or, like, not that we require bodywork, but, like, we really encourage families to get bodywork surrounding the release before and after. And, like, yeah, the work that we're doing is going to help, but we see, like, the CST or osteopathic, you know, the osteo or whatever, you know, is happening in terms of body work around that release, we see huge differences, huge differences in outcomes. Like, I can compare cases earlier on in my career to when we then started saying, hey, we think you really should have this. And the way that the body responds, plus the way the child heals the nervous system, like, for the child and the parent, it is like, night and day, night and day.

What kind of body work specifically are they doing?

So just craniosacral therapy or going to see the osteopath, or maybe they're working with a chiropractor. But, like, most of the time we're recommending CST or the osteopath because that's very, like, hand in hand kind of.

And do you think that's just because the fascia is like.

Oh, yeah, I think the fascia is Way more pliable. I think it's. I think it's easier for the release provider to release the tissue and to know that, like, we had a, like, complete release. If we do have to suture the child, I think that the tissue is just more pliable, and it's easier to suture. And as it heals, I think it heals better. I feel like when the child is healing because the release was better, not that the release wasn't good if we don't have cst, but I just feel like because things were more pliable, it just makes it easier. We're more easily able to make gains quicker. And again, we see kids who are not, like, in this tense. You know, it's like, if you're not getting the body work, we see, like, a lot of tension patterns. Held, and then you go into a release with that tension. You come out of the release with that tension, maybe, plus more tension. And now we're trying to get you to move your tongue, and it hurts. Like.

Yeah, yeah. See, we're just back to, like, this is all. It's not an isolated system, you know, like. Yeah.

And I see, like, I notice a lot of the feeding struggles that some of the kids have, too, where babies are swallowing too much air. We have this airophagia going on. It's like the tether tissue on the floor of the tongue is connected indirectly to the hyoid. So we're then pulling the hyoid up and forward, which is impacting how we swallow. We're swallowing too much air. That causes dysfunction, that causes discomfort in the digestive tract. I feel like it's just this whole snowball of issues. And so if we can kind of get everything to relax, you know, then maybe we're not doing that as much. Maybe we're at least relaxed. You know, I'll see kids go in for bodywork, and the families don't want to release. And we'll see that, like, the bodywork doesn't hold. Like, they have immediate results. And then, like, within a couple of days, it's, like, gone. And that's part of the time we're like, well, function is clearly impaired beyond the mouth. And that's our biggest thing for also determining, one, if it's a tongue tie, and two, if we think. Think the release provider should be seeing, like, form and function. Right. So it's not just that we see a tight fascia present, but function is impaired, and function is maybe slowly improving. But, like, we're hitting that wall like we talked about. Yeah.

Yeah. So do you think that there's an increase in tongue ties because of the folic acid stuff or. Or do you think that we're just diagnosing them more? Like, to me, people ask me that all the time. I'd be. I just want to get your take on that.

I don't know. I mean, I think it's. I honestly think it could be both. I think epigenetics. Right. So I do believe that the whole, like, apoptosis is not happening in the same way that it should. And I think that obviously there is a genetic component and I think there's an environmental component. I think it's completely both. I think, yes, we're better at diagnosing them, but they've been present for a long time. So is it that there's more. I do think there are more tethered tissues, and I think that our jaws are shrinking. I think there's other components. So I don't think it's just the ties. I think it's part of a bigger puzzle where we know our jaws are shrinking and we have this tight tissue and we have other tension patterns in the body. I think that it's just kind of snowballing in a way that we can't compensate as well as maybe we used to. And so now it's a bigger issue that we need to address.

Yeah. Have you heard that study about. In Brazil, they require every child to have a tongue tie evaluation before age 6 months because. Yeah. At age 70, that people with severe tongue ties had severe health issues, moderate tongue ties had moderate health issues, and mild tongue ties had mild health issues.

I love Brazil. They always have the best tongue tie research coming out of there.

I mean, it's amazing. Like, that just speaks again to this. Like, it's not just the tongue. Like, this whole system is all connected. And they've been doing those, like, newborn.

Screenings for tongue ties for a while too. I've been like, talking like, the US really needs to get on board with that. Yes.

I hear there's some hospitals that don't even let you say the word tongue tie. Like, oh, no.

Such gag orders. It's crazy. So we know. It's interesting. The hospital where I had my kids is a very, like, room in mom, baby friendly, breastfeeding friendly hospital. They will not give your child a pacifier. Like, like, you can give them one, but they're not offering that. They will body bottle feed and everything. They'll also take the baby to the nursery if you want them to. Otherwise it's like, kind of assumed everyone's rooming it, right? Really high ratings, even for hospitals. Like, I know hospitals these days. People look for different ratings on, like, maternal things as well. Like, really highly rated. So I remember with Lily, I had no idea because I hadn't been. I wasn't in this world yet. That was like. Like to come, like, a year later. But with Mia, who was born in February 2018, I was like, you know, I'm not. I'm just. I'm not gonna look. I'm just gonna blissfully ignore it for at least the first 24 hours. And the second I latched her, I was like, dang it. It's like, this feels like Lily all over again. Like, I don't even need to look. I know. And so, of course I look. And I said something to the charge nurse, and she was like, oh, I don't know, you know, do you want us to send somebody in to help with breastfeeding? I was like, yeah, send them in. Whatever. The second my pediatrician showed up and agreed with me that the baby was tongue tied, would you believe the nurse in the room was like, do you want our surgeon to release that for you? And I was like, oh, get the f out of here. I was like, absolutely do. No, you are not touching my baby. I'm going to the oral surgeon that did my other child and that did my tongue, like, no, don't touch my baby. But I was like, how interesting that y' all couldn't diagnose and you didn't want to even acknowledge it until an outside source diagnosis, but now you want to build my insurance and do the release in the hospital. Okay, got. I got it. Got a number.

I think that's very standard.

Oh, yeah.

Yep. Yeah.

Very standard.

This is the way healthcare works now, so I don't know.

Yep. No, I was like, I got my people, so don't touch my kid.

Yeah. I would just. I would say if you're having a baby soon, just find your local expert and get it evaluated.

Yeah, totally.

I'm all about, like, staying home, not leaving the house for, like, six weeks and having everyone come to you, but that one might be worth going out for.

Yeah. Well, I mean, and you can have a. Sometimes, like, a lactation consultant who's an rn. Because they're an rn, I think they technically can diagnose it. And some. Some states SLPs or OTS might be able to diagnose it. Like, I could in Maryland. I can here in Florida, but I know New York and New Jersey. I Think you can't. So it's just like, state by state. So, yeah, if you can find somebody who can at least help you diagnose it, you know, and then you can go to the release provider for, like, the next step. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's wild. It is wild.

I would just. I'm, like, bullish on them because I feel like it helps with jaw development naturally. So if you can just, like, go through that one little procedure and you're gonna nurse better and they're going to develop more naturally, like the jaws that they were meant to have, I think it. It pays off.

Yeah, we've seen, like, huge, huge changes in, like, the lower jaw coming forward when there's a tongue tie release that needs to be done. Plus, like, craniosacral therapy, and maybe you're working with, like, somebody to help with feeding, if that's needed. Really very cool to see, like, that lower jaw. Like, you see the baby photos and you see, like, photos a couple weeks later and that jaw is already coming forward and you're just like, see the fascia. That release just allowed for the jaw to move into place. Yeah.

So awesome.

It's very cool.

Yeah.

But anywho, I know we could chat all day. Is there anything else we haven't covered that you want to talk about?

I feel like we've talked about a lot of good stuff.

We have, we have.

Yeah.

All right, so tell us where they can find you.

I feel like if you're on Instagram, that's a really good way because it also has, like, my link tree with my website and our pediatric screening questionnaire, the adult screening questionnaire. So it's a good way to kind of like, get some data right through there. You can submit photos, fill out the questionnaire, like, set up a zoom, or sometimes I can just, like, do a video for you and tell you what I'm seeing in the pictures and the questionnaire and. Yeah, that's a good. That's a good place to start.

All right, well, we'll make sure that is linked in the show notes so they know where to find you. And thank you for joining me today. This was so much fun.

Yeah, thanks for having me, Holly. This was fun.

Thanks for listening to this podcast. If you found value in this episode and want to hear more of these Myotots, Airway and feeding related episodes, be sure to leave a review on Apple Podcasts and share this episode on your social media platforms. You can access free resources and all I offer@halliebalkin.com or pop over to Hollybulcan on Instagram to get all the latest updates.