Episode 53: Love it, Like it, Learning it with Ashley Smith MPH, RD, LD

Hi and welcome to episode 53 of the Untethered Podcast. Today we have Ashley Smith joining us. Ashley is a pediatric dietitian and owner of Veggies and Virtue. She lives outside of Houston with her husband and her three kids aged 6, 4 and 1, and is mostly a stay at home mom. She started Veggies and Virtue three years ago with an effort to support other families in their own journey to experiencing less mealtime stress and more feeding success. Quick disclaimer. All information, content and material of this podcast are the opinions of the speakers and is for the informational purpose only and not intended to serve as a substitute for the consultation, diagnosis and or medical treatment of a qualified healthcare provider. Ashley, I want to thank you for joining me on the podcast today. I'm really excited. You're our first registered dietitian to join us on the podcast. So welcome.

Well, I'm honored. Thank you so much for asking me. I'm really glad that we could finally coordinate a time to both make this happen. So thanks so much for recognizing registered dietitians in this whole trifecta of healthcare professionals and everything, but I really appreciate the chance to be on and chat with you.

Absolutely. Well, and in the world of feeding, I mean, you guys are super important, especially for a lot of our picky or selective eaters, because there's a lot of education to be done around that space. And I think so often we know that you guys are such an important part of the team, but parents don't always seek out, you know, that RD expertise. So I think it would be really helpful if we can kind of shop from the rooftops, you know, about what you do, and we'll jump right in there. So give us a little bit about, you know, your background and how either how you became an RD or if you want to jump right on into that and your experience as an RD mom, I'd love to hear all about that.

Yeah, sure. So I knew I wanted to be a dietitian from, like teenage years on. I nannied kids. I was the babysitter who would make creative fruit plates for the picky eaters. Like, I was really fascinated by picky eating as early as junior high because I was born and raised a really adventurous eater. My brother is a professional chef. I mean, it was just like in my blood to eat adventurously and that's all I knew. So it was really like very interesting to me to see kids even when I was a teenager that weren't adventurous eaters and to kind of just be. I was just really fascinated in it early on. And yet I also had a really big interest in health and nutrition and fitness and things like that. And so I was one of those kids who knew what I wanted to go to school for. I went to school for it. I graduated undergrad in human nutrition and then I moved down to Texas for my master's in public health. But I chose, I'm from Washington state and I chose this program in Texas specifically because it gave me the most exposure to pediatrics. It was just, it was always where my heart was. I knew that was the direction I wanted to take my career. And so after doing my dietetic internship and then grad school, I had the opportunity to do a fellowship and then get hired at Texas Children's, which is a very well known pediatric hospital. So I got some great experience and exposure to the world of pediatrics there, both in my internship and then also professionally with my first job out of grad school. And it was just an invaluable experience and exposure to the world of pediatrics. And yet, when my firstborn was born in 2014, you know, then I went from the clinical setting to being at home with my own daughter, and my world was just a little bit rocked. You know, here I would have said, oh, I'm a pediatric dietitian. And even though I worked more with medical nutrition therapy and, you know, kids with more specialized needs, I still advise so many parents on, you know, general health and wellness for their child. General picky eating and a lot of those just like, you know, general things that you need to go talk to parents about. And just the number of times as a new mom, I realized, like, what did I say to parents? Like, I was so ignorant, naive, because, you know, it's all this advice you love to give parents, and then we become a parent and if you forget everything. Yes, yes. And I just, I said, I was like, wow. I did not know how much pride I had as a pediatric dietitian until I had my first daughter. And clearly I needed to get it all in check because nothing went smoothly with her. Nothing was easy. Nothing was natural or normal or like poster child experience that I thought I would have. And so I started staying at home as soon as she was born. And now I have three kids and, you know, our story has evolved and things like that. But when, you know, back six years ago now, when I started staying home with her, it definitely opened my eyes to people nutrition in a whole new way. And so I'm thankful for that. I think it's definitely grown Me more than my clinical experience ever did. But I think a lot of that was just because I didn't have the personal experience to support what I was learning in the workplace at that time. And so I've had a lot of, obviously, as we all know as parents, feeding our kids. You know, we get more practice at home than we probably even want. But it's definitely opened my eyes and a whole new way to the world of pediatric nutrition in general, but particularly picky eating and that really high selective selectivity with eating and not having the adventurous eater that I just kind of assumed I would have with my own kids. Yeah.

And I can relate to that because. And I don't know. Not to say that you didn't know a lot of information, but I think every mother, when they have their child, especially if it's in an area where you feel like you should know all this information, right? Like, oh, my gosh, what are the developmental milestones for speech and language and feeding? And I even should have, like, a basic understanding of, like, you know, some of those motor milestones, the things that I was advising other parents on. Holy cow. Like, you just. Everything just leaves your brain when you have a child of your own. So I can absolutely relate to that, especially, you know, thinking, oh, we're going to go into this lovely little world of feeding, and it's going to be this beautiful thing at home with my child. And then you have this baby who can't feed so easily, and you're like, holy cow, what's going on? And it completely rocks your world. And then you go down this rabbit hole of this, you know, space you never knew you'd end up in, like, for me, teged oral tissues, which brought me to myo and airway and all that stuff. And so, yeah, I can definitely appreciate the world of picky eating and selective eating and being very particular about how it looks, what it smells like, how it's presented, all those fun things. So I'm really excited that we're going to talk more about this because I think we've got a lot of listeners who are either working with these kids or have these kids at home that, you know, deal with this and probably would love some tips on how we can. How we can help these kiddos.

Yeah. Well, I definitely hope the conversation today can be insightful, whether it be for professional or parent and, you know, the synergy that both have and the understanding that both of them need to have in this area. Hopefully it'll be enlightening in some new ways.

Yeah. So, I mean, with your own child, you know, where did that take you? Is that how your business was born? Tell us a bit more about that.

Well, yeah, so I, like I said, I was in the clinical setting at first, just kind of for the initial experience pre kids, you know, it's kind of the most recommended route at first, but I knew my heart was always more towards public health, nutrition, and private practice and kind of working more on the local or personal level with, you know, just with families and things like that. I didn't realize it would necessarily go the direction it did. This much towards picky eating, but straight out of the gates with my firstborn, you know, I have so much appreciation for what you do. This podcast is about because I went to every lactation consultant, every. I went to a speech language pathologist, we went to an ot. We went to everyone that they told us to go to for her. And no one, like, no one diagnosed her tongue tie. And we didn't know that she even had one until my second daughter was born two years later. And we had gone through even worse newborn phase with my second. You know, she wouldn't sleep. She was nursing 23 hours a day. And that other hour I had to take her off just to, like, you know, shower or take care of the other kid or whatever it might be. She would scream. And it was just like, it was not sustainable. And where at least my firstborn, she had been more mild temperament. So she was kind of easier to handle. And it was kind of. We couldn't nurse, and there was a lot of nursing struggles. And as a dietitian, it was very important to me to breastfeed. And so I just kind of assumed, like, that was going to be my experience. And it wasn't. It was just. It was awful. Like, everything about it was awful. And that really broke my heart because I just, you know, some of these things that we have as our own unique value systems that we put on ourselves is, this really matters to me and whether everyone else can justify all the ways that, like, it'll be okay. This matters to me. And so that was something that mattered to me, and it was not my experience. And so I had to kind of go through the process of, what did that look like? And so I did exclusively pump with my firstborn, but even that was just a terrible experience. You know, it was not what I envisioned. It was. Yeah, there was just not a lot of warm, fuzzy feelings about it. There was definitely no bond and all that kind of stuff. And so that was my experience with Her. And then as we started introducing solids, kind of like what you were saying was just like all these developmental milestones and all these processes we think we should know. And six years ago, baby led weaning was much less well known in the States. And I had worked with a dietitian from the UK at the pediatric hospital. And when my oldest, Claire, when she was, we were introducing solids, she just wasn't really into it. And she did okay for the first couple months, but then by around like nine months, she just refused everything. So as we tried to advance texture, she never could do it. And again, I should know this, right? Like, I thought I had my plan and I had my charts and I.

Knew what I was supposed to do.

And it was just not that. And I remember like I had made all this homemade baby food and that was when she like rejected all of it. And I was like, what am I going to do? And I remember bringing it to like our music classes and like passing it out to the families that trusted me because I was like, I promise it's really good. Like it's salmon from Seattle. I homemade. I did all this stuff and it didn't matter. I mean, you know, we can all do give our best effort and that doesn't mean that it's going to be successful. Like, I think that was kind of my introduction to like, it's not my fault, you know, like, and which all of us know is a really hard message to swallow as a mom, but we also need to because a lot of times I think we carry so much of the weight on like, what did I do wrong? And so I had all this like background knowledge and then I was like, what is going on? And. And again, at this point it was still undiagnosed tongue tie. And so just progressing through the introductions of solids was really challenging. We started doing baby led weaning and that was a little bit better. But I mean by like 13 months I knew as a dietitian the division of responsibility from Ellen Satter. I knew that what my job as the parent was, was what, when and where food was offered. I knew that her job should start to be, you know, if whether and how much she wanted as we, you know, started to wean and she was on fully table foods and things like that. And so we were moving towards kind of more of like this toddler based mealtime structure and everything like that. And yet she wasn't eating any of the things that I was offering. And I was so perplexed because I'm like, I Want my kid to eat like this. Like, come on, girl, like, you're going to be like, I thought you were going to be my poster child for pediatric nutrition. And it is just nothing clicked, nothing worked. She didn't want any of it. And I was really stumped. I mean, she was picky from, you know, by like a year. I could tell, like, she's just not accepting the foods that I would like her to. And so I kind of just found myself at a little bit of a crossroads of like, I know what I want to offer her, she's not eating it. I know. Best practice advice from a dietitian perspective. But there's still something not clicking with my kid. And that was where I started to get curious. And I started to do more digging than I professionally had ever really needed. Because I wasn't dealing with the more, you know, really selective eaters. I was dealing with medically fragile kids, but in a totally different way who may have been tube fed or things like that. But with my own kid, I realized this is not just behavioral intervention. This is not just, how can I shape a healthy feeding foundation? What are the main pillars of this feeding? I had that down. And yet we still weren't thriving. And that was hard for me. That was where I was like, no, no, I need to know the answers to this. And I wasn't okay not knowing the answers because as a mom, I obviously needed to figure it out. And I wasn't okay just kind of like taking shortcuts because I knew the ramifications of that with, you know, having talked to picky eaters and things like that. But I also felt like as a professional, I needed to have the answers. And if I didn't have them as a mom, I was uncomfortable with that because I thought if I have as much education and training as I do, and I still don't know how to answer some of these questions that are coming up in my own life. I need to figure out the answer because there's other moms who have plenty of gifts and plenty of education and plenty of background in other areas, but not in nutrition. And they're going to be even more dumbfounded than I am when they hit these hiccups. And so that's when veggies and virtue really started. Because I just kind of thought, I'm going to be feeding my kid at home every day anyways. I stayed at home full time. You know, I was like, I just, I wanted to share this journey because I don't know what it's going to look like. And I just want to be transparent with sharing it because I'm on a journey too here with what I thought. You know, I would have thought more. It's like, oh, me feeding my poster child and this like everyone's like, wow, look at your amazing eater. Like, my pride would have loved that. My pride got, you know, stuff in the gutter very early on.

So I think how kids do that.

To us, that's where veggies and virtue kind of started, was the experience of it. So I started it right around the time my second child was born two years later. And as my oldest went to mom's day out and I kind of kept seeing the problems escalate, little lunch boxes, never be touched and like those kind of things. I think at that point I don't really know what I was getting into. Like, I didn't really know the extra of the challenges that she was having. But it's been a really. I think it's helped keep me accountable all the more as a mom because I've shared it publicly and because I decided, you know, I'm going to commit my work to this and I'm going to, you know, create this side hustle to try and help support families who are living similar struggles and who face similar challenges. And I wanted to be both, like an evidence based practitioner to support them. But I also wanted to just like come at it from like the point of empathetic mom. He's like, I get it, I get it. And like, even with my education, I get it. And I want you to know, like, this is not a you problem. So that was where veggies and virtue really started, was just like of my own searching and my own like heart's desire to help my own kid. But knowing that like, I can't be alone in this, like, if I'm facing this, surely other families are wondering what is going on and how do we help them. And so since with my second daughter being born, we found out finally, like as I mentioned at three months that she had a tongue tie. And then my third child who was born like about just over a year and a half ago, he had one as well. And so it's like now all the things, like we were able to, you know, intervene that much earlier and like the pathway to introducing solids and moving into table foods and all of that has been so much smoother each time because we were just a little bit ahead. You know, we, we knew what we didn't know the last time. And so that's. That's helped progress our process a lot with each subsequent kid. But in the initial, that was kind of where I was like, okay, I'm gonna start diving into this, but I'm also gonna start sharing it in the case it might help someone else.

That's amazing. And that's part of why Lily and I decided we're gonna put her mayo videos, like, seconds every week on Instagram. Because, one, that'll hold us accountable. Two, people are curious to see what's going on with her. And three, it's like, you know, I see it on my calendar and I'm like, oh, we gotta do your mayo, because we can do a check in. So if we don't do our practice, like, what are we checking in on? So it was definitely that accountability was a super important thing. And as all of my listeners know, it' thing happened with my kids, right? Like, we didn't know till Lily was. We didn't know till she was two that she was tongue and liptide, because I was never trained in it. And it wasn't until I came home from, you know, my first myofunctional therapy intro course or intro into oral facial myology, I should say that she had tether oral tissues. And I was like, how did the lactation consultant never look at that? How did it. How did everyone tell me it was okay, that it took me 45 minutes to feed her, and we were feeding around the clock and I was like, grimacing and turning my head away from her and to latch her on because it was so painful. How come nowhere? You know, it's like I sought some help, but I got turned away. And so, because I got not turned away, but almost like, oh, look, she's nursing fine today. She's fine, mom. Like, just hold her like this. Position her like that. And, you know, and so after that, I was like, oh, it's a me thing. And I never really sought additional help because then I had the pediatrician telling me, oh, she's just tiny for her age. She's on the first percentile. But the important thing is that she always stays there and she's on her own growth curve, so she's fine, you know. And so when you constantly have these. These people in your ears telling you, oh, your baby's fine, your baby's fine, your baby's fine. And you're going, eh. Something is kind of going off in my mama gut, but everybody I ask about it keeps telling me, no, baby's fine. It shuts you down, especially when you're Like a new mom who has not been through this before, who is dealing with like the fourth trimester postpartum, you know, hormones, just normal hormones. And everyone else is bonding with their babies, or so it feels like. And you're like, I have a hard time bonding when it's painful to latch my child. Like, not that I don't love this child, but very different experience between her and my second one who was released at day five.

Right.

So it's like one of those things where. Yeah, I mean, when you know better, you do better, obviously. And so that's why with my second one, it was like I texted my oral surgeon, I was like, we've got some tethered old tissues here. And we. He's like, bring her on in right away. Because, you know, I didn't want to, like, like you said, like, you don't want to go through that again. When you know better, you do better. You want to help your kids. And the beauty of it is Mia is a great eater. She will eat whatever. She'll try it for the first time. If she doesn't eat it, she kind of looks at you and goes, it's yucky. But she's two. That's very appropriate to try something and then say it's yummy or it's yucky. And that's okay. There's like three foods total she doesn't like. She eats everything under the sun and tries everything. Whereas Lily is standing on the other side of the room holding her nose, asking you what that smell is. So, you know, it's like, could we have changed some things for her had we intervened a little bit sooner? I asked myself that all, who knows? Would she have had these issues anyways? Who knows? But it just makes you wonder as a mom and a professional, you know, like, oh my gosh, even in the back of your head, when, you know, when I know that I didn't know these things, it's so hard to not feel like a failure. Right? Like, you feel like you have one job as a mom. Feed your child, keep them healthy and alive. Right here we are not able to feed them and obviously that can impact their health. So anyways, I will turn it back over to you, but I love to.

Hear, you know, it is so similar though. I mean, I think your experience with Lily was so, so similar to mine with Claire of just, you know, early on. And if as a first time mom, you don't know what to expect. So it's so new that, you know, you're like, I don't know, is that not normal to take an hour to feed my child? Like, they seem still hungry. And it seemed so similar experience, like not gaining weight. I'm like, but I'm literally feeding her all the time. And like just all the struggles and all the specialists and all the like glares of like, no, I mean, it's fine. Like, I remember I spent $350 for an evaluation. They gave me saline drops and said she might just be congested. And I was like, I just like, you're my speech language pathologist. I was like waiting and waiting and waiting for like. And as a first time mom again, now I look back and I cringe thinking of that appointment. I can like visualize the room still, you know, because you're like scarred by those experiences, but you go through all these things and you don't know who to listen to. You don't know if you're just worrying for nothing, you know, I mean, it just, it puts a lot of challenging experiences in your experience right out of the gates. And I think, you know, to your point too, then you look back and you know, at 4, for Lily or like for Claire at 6 now, like, you look back and you can't help but think, like, would it have been different? Like, would the outcome have been different how we caught it sooner. And I think that's why you, I know and as well as myself, like, are so dedicated to doing this is because we want to help save other people from some of the struggles that we had to face. And as moms, I think all of us have that genuine desire, no matter what the subject is. I mean, I think if any of us go through some, some trial in any area of motherhood, you always want to spare another mom that struggle if they don't have to work through it. But you also can't feel like the depth of the pain and the stress. It is, I think unless you personally walk through it, like, the empathy is just much different. So I can, I can definitely empathize with you on those early years with your first because that was very similar to mine. And you know, you just, I hope to make it a little bit better with the next kids and then better for other kids.

You know, it definitely makes you a better therapist and professional. Right? Like, it definitely gives you that level of empathy that nobody truly understands until you've gone through it yourself. And I think that, you know, I'm, as much as I didn't enjoy it for her and for us as that mother, you know, infant feeding dyad, what it has allowed me to do. The silver lining in all of it is it's allowed me to relate better to my moms, especially my mom, all of the moms and all of the children I work with, but especially those infants, those moms who come in here because we get a lot of infants who seem to be feeding okay, and then around four to six months, something changes or, you know, or they're born and like, we've had these, like, we had the experience, they just didn't feed well from day one, but they were.

Able to manage for a little while.

And then things totally fell apart. Now we're trying to keep baby off a feeding tube or, you know, and you've obviously dealt with these medically complex cases too, as an rd, like you mentioned, you know, the feeding tube kiddos that you've, you worked with pre kids and I don't know if you were still treating with some of after you had kiddos, but, you know, that's. I get the ones who are like, we don't want to go that route. We don't want that feeding tube. Help us. And they're like 10 days away from a tube.

Oh, yeah, that's a hard start.

I'm like, has anybody ever looked under the tongue?

Can we put that lip up and.

See what it looks like under there? But it's, you know, it's also why I think so many of my patients and moms, the babies and moms, have had so much success because not for the first time, it's like they're being validated and someone is hearing them. Not just for the symptoms that are presenting, but also saying, hey, I hear you and this is not your fault. However, like, something is going on and maybe it's baby and we can help you and we're not sending you out the door. And so yes, if you come and have an eval with me, and there is a significant fee for that, that's because I'm highly experienced. I've been through this myself. I can help you and I'm not going to turn you away. I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that if I'm not the right person, we get you in that right provider's office or if I'm part of that team, we also make sure that those providers who can help you and who can help you quickly. Right? That's who we want on the team. Because as you mentioned, these parents are so tired of being bounced around from office to office. And you have one professional saying one thing and then the same professional in another office saying another, and then a third professional with different credentials saying a third thing. And all of a sudden you have all this different advice, but yet nobody has told you, oh, hey, there's a tongue tie or oh, hey, you know, this is what we see going on. And well, yes, we can help your baby. Most people are just saying, oh, you're fine, you're fine, go home, keep feeding, baby's fine, growing weights good too.

Then you get family and friends opinion, you know, so of course, yeah, professional opinion. And then you're getting your mom, your in laws, your grandma's, your best friends, your like your mom group, all the people who said like, well this worked for me. And again, we're all trying to do the best we can to support one another. So we're trying to offer the ideas that we know. But I think you know, something I see, and I know that you see too is these people, like especially when you're a first time mom, but honestly, if it's just a first time for you, you know, I think once you've gone through it, you kind of know what to expect. And I work with a lot of families that like their firstborn might be picky and then they know what to expect when it comes up with their second born or their firstborn was super adventurous, didn't have any issues, didn't have the tongue tied, didn't struggle at all with selective eating. And then the second born comes and they like don't know what to do. So I think it's one where whether you're a first time parent or first time experience with someone who's having a child, who's having challenges with feeding, you try and act like a sponge and you try and take it all in, thinking like the more the better, surely one of these is going to stick. I'm going to try all the things. But I'm sure like the families you see, they're just so burnt out, they're just so overwhelmed with the amount of advice from professionals. They're exhausted about the amount of money that they've spent seeking out different expertise that may or may not have gotten them anywhere. I see, I mean, I'm sure like you, you see so many families that have spent a lot of time and money and energy, not only their own, but also their kids. You know, these little kids putting the energy into different, whether it just be the doctor visits, specialist visits, the feeding therapy, all the different things and may or may not have been successful. And again, they're getting A lot of different messages. Meanwhile, they're getting their personal support group, giving all the advice, whether it's asked for or not. But I just see families struggling so much with like, I don't even know what to do and I'm getting so much. And I think that's, you know, where you mentioned, like, the evaluation, why thorough evaluations are everything. Because even pediatricians, I love pediatricians, I respect them, I work with them. I have nothing but good things to say about them. But they're one, most of them are not trained in nutrition, and two, most of them don't have the bandwidth to discuss nutrition to the depth that it needs. And I don't blame them because their office visits are short and based on the medical components. And yet, like, my initial consult is minimum 90 minutes. And we, I mean, some families, if you're less complex, we get through it in the 90 minutes. There's a lot of times where it's like, whoa, there's so much going on and I don't want to miss something. So I'm going to go through this with a fine tooth comb with you, even if it takes us longer than the allotted time because we're dedicating the time to a thorough evaluation. And that's why a lot of families will ask me, what do I do about my picky eater? And I'm like, I wish I could tell you in a sentence. Trust me, I totally wish because I would have done that like six years ago with my, you'd be the richest.

Person in the world if you could tell everybody how to fix picky eating.

Right, Exactly. And again, it's like, I would not be doing due diligence if I. I mean, I can point you in the direction of some resources and like, I can help you, but I can't just give you some generic advice without knowing your kid. There's just so many directions that this is, could have come from or that this could go, or not knowing your family dynamics, not knowing your child. There's so many things that like, require a thorough evaluation to understand the needs of a child. And so I think that's why it's awesome what you guys do, because you take the time, you put the energy into what you're doing, and you go through the process with them. And that's really what I try and do with my clients and either, whether it be one on one or group coaching to say, I know you want this to go away fast. Trust me, I'm a mom. I wanted it to go away like forever ago. We're still working through this, but now I have six years to see, like, wow, look how far she has come. Like, I know the direction this could. I know the 6 year old she would have ended up with because I work with 6 year olds who are like that kid all the time. But I know where she is because I knew what I knew and I was able to like steer her in that direction. And she's still the one who's like, you know, the most adventurous leader. No, she's so much more adventurous than I ever could have, you know, hoped at this stage. And so to see that trajectory is really encouraging to me because I see the kids who didn't have that earlier intervention and I see the struggles that their family have gone through. And yet I share with the families of like, this is going to. Oh, no.

Play again. Recording. Okay. Hey, Sam, if you're listening to this, this is where we got cut off. So make it sound good. Fix it up for us.

So sorry. Oh my gosh.

No worries. Okay, so let's hop back in. We're talking about the six year old.

Yes. So I think if families can realize that this is not a quick fix, but they can realize for you it wasn't a quick fix. For me, it wasn't a quick fix. It's nothing they're doing wrong. It's nothing their child is doing wrong. But to find someone who's willing to take the time and give your child and your family the attention that's needed, because the families that I work with, I rarely even offer a one time consult because I just can't, I hate to say fix your kid, but I can't address all the challenges that you're facing with your selective eater in one call. And I would be misguiding you to pretend I could do so. And so I think if you know your audience and I know you know the health professionals that are listening to your podcast, but especially the families too, can recognize like we are truly in the business to serve your family and serve them well. But in order to do that, that takes time and that takes us moving as slowly as your kid needs. Some kids will advance really quickly and that's awesome. And we thrill in them thriving and yet some kids need to go really slow. And so I think for parents to know that, that no fault of their own. And it may or may not be, you know, related to the specialist. Sometimes I know families don't have success and it may not be a right fit with the family and a therapist, but oftentimes it's just the pace that needs to happen in order to give your child the treatment and the support and the baby steps that they need. And that's really where I try and specialize with families, is to help them realize not just the simple principle I used to give families when I worked in the hospital that made picky eating sound so simple, but to really take them through what is this framework? How do you really implement that foundation, Establish it and keep at it through all the hiccups and hurdles that will happen? They happen to me. Blame yourself, don't blame your kid. I walk through them, I understand them. But here's how to handle them so they can keep getting that ongoing support because it's just, it's not something that they're going to solve overnight.

Yeah, and I think that's such a good message because I think that, you know, obviously as parents we get so frustrated and it's exhausting and you know, just to think like it's another thing to deal with in parenthood that you weren't expecting and now here we are and obviously we need to deal with it. But it's, you know, I'm glad, I'm glad to hear you say it's not this quick fix. Because look, if it was truly just picky eating that we see in toddlerhood, sometimes it would go away after a few months on its own. You know, some kids go through phases, but that's exactly all that is. That's a phase. When it's there more long term or you've been having eating issues since the beginning, we're dealing with a very different situation and it has to be approached differently. So I know you've created other programs, so can you share a little bit more about what you've created and you know, what's even available for anybody who might be listening?

Sure, yeah. So since I stay at home predominantly and I have three kids, six and under, you know, I don't. One on one consulting has been challenging for me professionally. But I also saw, you know, the moms that I serve tend to be in similar life stages as me. So none of us necessarily have the time to do a lot of one on one coaching. And with that, as, you know, as a professional, it's more expensive to the family. And I just noticed, especially for a lot of these families who may have been paying for a lot of different services, it's not always economical to get a dietitian on their team. And I struggle with that because obviously I see my value and I see the value that other dietitians bring to this puzzle of picky eating or problem feeding and things like that. And so I wanted to create something that was more efficient for families, busy lifestyles, but also more cost effective, knowing that I was limited in my bandwidth in terms of how many people I could serve. But it also just wasn't something that a lot of families could afford. And so I created my Academy program, which is a group coaching online program where I walk families through. I do a live version, and I recently just opened up an on demand option so families can go to it. They get all the same resources. They just get them recorded versus live, so they don't have the same live chance to chat with me and things like that. But for the live version of the Academy, it's eight weeks and we have a break week and an introduction week. And so technically it tends to be about 10 weeks. But I just walk parents through the framework of how I think they can best support their child. And now that I've worked with hundreds of families doing it, I've been able to organize it in a way that can help every family with where they're at, but also make sure they're not missing any pieces of the puzzle. Because I think a lot of times parents enter from kind of where they think they want it. You know, I want my kid to learn to like vegetables. So they start there rather than recognizing all the things like they're, you know, they're starting on the tip of the iceberg without realizing, like, okay, let's, let's kind of address. And again, it's in a group setting, so I'm not doing an individual assessment on any of these kids, but I really walk parents through, helping them understand what are some of the components that could be playing in what are some of the things that play into your family's worry cycle around food? What were some of the initial feeding experiences for your family? What are some of your own feeding beliefs or your spouse's feeding beliefs, or like all the different messages that come in and then how does that form your family's approach to feeding? And then comparing that to try and help them understand where they're at, but also what's best practice and how do you actually adopt best practice and what does that look like? And making sure some of the basics, as you mentioned, some picky eating is more of a phase. Some of it is a little further down, like what I call the picky eating continuum of there's more typical picky eating and then there's more extreme Picky eating. And I think parents just say my kid is picky. And they assume that that is.

Super.

Defeating because we even know as parents of, I don't like using the word picky, but you know, like as more picky or more selective eaters, there's such a range that if someone says their kid is picky and I look at them, I'm like, oh no. If I was. Again, I'm a health professional, so I can differentiate here. But as a parent I'm like, oh no, that's not picky. You want to see my kid? You know, like automatically we kind of like judge. Is your kid more or less picky than mine? We kind of do that thing. And so I try and help parents understand the whole continuum where their child may be at, where that may help them to be more successful more quickly if they're, you know, more typical picky eaters, but also just an understanding where their, where their child's isms are and where their child's feeding idiosyncrasies are and, and how to help support their child. And so the first half of the academy is all focusing on feeding foundation and really just helping parents whether you have the kind of typical picky eater where it's more of just a phase. You just maybe weren't equipped with the tools in your feeding toolbox to begin with to even know how to set up a healthy feeding foundation to help, how to help establish a healthy relationship with food, how to raise your whole family. This is not isolating one individual child, but this is like a family wide philosophy that you can adopt whether this is your third kid who happened to end up being picky, or it's your first and you see it starting to impact your second, who actually was adventurous kind of thing. So I try and help families, you know, all families work through that foundation because that can benefit all families. But again, kind of addressing that gap where I found myself of that picky eating continuum, that's where we start to segue into the second half of the academy where I dive in a little bit more specifically into some of the concepts of, you know, how to help expand and, you know, increase variety and the whole concept which you and I had talked about. But I started Love it, Like it, learning it. And that was just something I started with my own daughter because I knew my role as a parent was to decide what was being offered. And yet as any of us know, with children who are selected eaters, that can be really hard because you're like, I got a list of haul of like six things. I'm not going to choose those six things. But if I don't choose those six things, they don't eat. And so I try and help families understand like at the, at the basic, most core understanding of it is you offer them something they love and they eat, you know, without like, without question. They eat almost every single time something they like, which is what I call.

Like the 5050 food.

They may or may not you've seen them at before, but it's not like their favorite and something they're still learning. And I try and help parents really early on reframe their language from. It's not I don't like that, it's, I'm still learning that. And you can learn a lot of different traits about it. And you know, I talk about in the course like yes, kids are allowed to actually not like foods, but I'm not going to let a 2 year old like define they don't like something that they've never tried, you know. So I try and help give parents lots of script suggestions in terms of kind of how to handle these like conversations that actually come up with your child at the table, but also how to like structure meals. So it has love it, like it learning it there. But then the second half of the academy is all focused on like what does that learning to like it process look like? And that's gonna be based off the first half off your foundation. What did you learn about your child? What did you learn about your family? What works for you guys? What doesn't work because you know your kid best. And so I try and really go back to that. So it's, it's customized even though it's a group setting, but it's not so individualized, you know. And part of that is because it would be really timely and really expensive to do that with each family. And I just started to see more and more of a demand where families, they really like to know that they're not alone. They like to know that other families are struggling. They like to have that community and that commerc of other parents who struggle too. And yet they see other families who are trying. And I think that's the thing. I think there's, and I mean I had a hard time with this and I still talk to other parents about this. I think there's this shame to picky eating that like I didn't, it's my fault or I'm not doing enough or I didn't fix it or I didn't intervene soon enough or all, I mean, we send all these messages and it can be all areas of parenting. I mean, if our kid doesn't sleep, if our kid throws tantrums, I mean, goodness knows there's all sorts of different areas this could apply. But on the note of feeding, I think a lot of parents recite messages in their head about, you know, what they haven't done or things like that. And so I think for them to see like, I am taking action and I am doing my best and I am trying, but I need to do that in a safe, supportive place. And I need to do that among other parents who aren't going to judge. Did I intervene quick enough? Did I catch this? Did I try this? Did it? You know, because that's where all those like ping pong ideas come from, where the parent starts, where they're so overwhelmed because they're like, all these people are telling me all these different things and nothing's working because they're starting at all the wrong places. You know, they're getting all these just ping pong ideas. And it's, as all of us know, it's super overwhelming. And so I think for parents to realize, like, okay, this is the pathway and we're going to go through this. And to what you said, I want to do my best to serve every family in the best of my abilities. I also can't do everything and I can't do it for every child. And as you know, some children are more complex and are going to need additional help. So I try and help families connect with the resources that they might need, especially if their child is on the more extreme end of the picky eating continuum. So that families see you've gone through the process, you know what's going on, you see how this all flows together. And yet you also know where you might need to seek additional help and you know why you might be seeking that additional help. So you're not just like throwing out a Hail Mary, being like, I don't know, I might try this one. I don't know, I might try this one. Because no one wants to do that. And so instead I'm trying to connect families to see like, okay, this is coming up. This might be something that you need to deal with because in a virtual setting, which my academy is, I obviously can't see people, you know, and address some of the things in person. And I'm not a feeding therapist, you know, I'm a registered dietitian, but I don't do one on one in person. Feeding Therapy. And so I want to make sure that kids are getting the appropriate support they need, particularly if they're a more, you know, extreme picky eater. But I try and help them understand from like the nutrition perspective and from the feeding foundation perspective of like establishing healthy relationships with food and healthy foundations for their families, the pathway to get there and then where, if and where, you know, they, they add in adjunct therapy if that's needed after they go, go through that. So that's, that's again, since I stay at home, I don't have all sorts of resources. You know, at this point of doing, I don't have my hands in tons of different buckets, but that's really where I powered the last couple years since I started Veggies and Virtue. That's where I poured most of my time and attention after seeing the one on one families. Because as you know, a lot of the same things come up, a lot of the same picky eating families have the same challenges. And so a lot of the same questions get asked. And that's where I see the community element being helpful because I knew what to address in the course because the program is geared around all those families I saw before I started the program. And it took all, you know, and it's been an evolutionary process to make sure I'm addressing all those things that come up because a lot of them are very common between families. So I try and, you know, make sure I address those so that all the families feel like they, they get all their questions answered and they, you know, have it coming from all the angles that they might be experiencing.

Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's amazing. And I almost wish that some of my families could go through your program before they come to me, just simply because, you know, you talked a lot about how one, you talk about their family values and you talk about, well, how are you approaching feeding? What's important to you at mealtime? Because obviously there are so many things, whether it's their background, their experiences, their culture. Right. There's just so many different things that come into play and something that's been really interesting. And I used to go into homes to do therapy. My team still does. I was also going into like private preschools and doing therapy and private schools. And I stopped doing that just actually like in March. And I was only working at home before the pandemic started. But, but what's so interesting and what I do miss about going into homes is that when you're in somebody's home, right, there's so Much information that you gather that you don't gather otherwise, like if you may come to you in a clinic setting. And so I miss that. When they're sitting here in my office, I'm not getting that same experience as though when I'm in their home. So now actually doing feeding therapy with clients I already had over this virtual platform has been really cool because I'm now seeing them in their kitchen, even though I'm not physically there, right? I'm on a computer on the table. I'm seeing the child in their element, in their natural element, and seeing how that environment lends itself to either helping our cause or not. So being so helpful to our cause. And that's been able to give me, you know, some really good tools to then give to the families on what they can try. And because they're kind of sitting in their kitchen when we're discussing it, they're like, going to the freezer and pulling something out, going, well, we have this. Should I try this? And I'm going, yeah, let's, you know, make those veggie fries, stick them on the table. Maybe you can have some and your husband can have some, and you can have some on a general plate. And let's just see what happens. And what do you know? That child who hasn't tried a new food in four months took some, put it on, went to get a napkin, put the napkin in front of them, took some, put them on their napkin, didn't eat it. But, hey, that kitty won't touch anything. But, like, 15 other foods just put their hands on it on a napkin in front of them, and nobody asked them to. And so it's taking what I've been telling parents for a long time to a different level in the sense that it's creating a lot more empowerment. And I think parents are. I keep joking. This is a silver lining of this pandemic is that families are being forced to sit down at the table. Even my own family, we're being forced to sit down at the table together. We're having more family meal times. And I've told parents, you know, look, I don't want you doing therapeutic meal times. I just want you doing family meal times. I want you having that food there so your child's exposed. And if they allow it on the table and they don't throw a fit, that's a big win. And, you know, if it's there the next day and they kind of look at it a little closer, that's an even bigger win. And if on the third time they see it, you know, they maybe take some and put it on their plate even though they don't eat it. That's huge. And so defining and explaining to families like what a big win looks like and actually having them like at that physical table when we're doing it is so powerful. Yeah, go ahead. I don't mean to interrupt.

I just, I love that you say that because I think, you know, that's one of my big aims with the academy is to help parents realize like big wins are actually baby steps. They're the ones that you actually miss. They're the things that you didn't give your child credit for and that you never internally celebrated before. But now you see where they fall on this like progressive pathway to getting them to learn to like new foods. But we just assume, and this is especially to your audience of health professionals, you know, we just assume eating is like two step process. Right.

We expect parent opposite from like looking at the food to actually getting it on your plate to getting into your mouth.

Yes. And I think, you know, things like, you know, for those familiar with like the steps to eating I think is so mind blowing for parents to start to understand that we can.

We.

And again, celebrate isn't maybe not the right word here because we're not necessarily wanting to verbally make up.

Yeah.

Internally celebrate these small steps. And if we do, I think parents can feel so much more encouraged that they're on the right course. And I think that's even as a parent what I realized like with my daughter of I missed so many of those small steps. I mean I've now gone through the SOS training but I think as a dietitian I just, I did that. I did the go to, I turned this into a butterfly and I made this, this and I did food play here and all these things that can be helpful. But if you don't know what to look for as like the small signs that your kid is learning to like something, you can feel a lot. You can feel much more defeated much more quickly and things. And so I think that's awesome that you're like you said, there's so much silver lining from the quarantine of being able to one for you to see new opportunities of how you can show up for families and be in their space. Because I totally agree. I had to only do virtual when we moved because we were in Houston proper and we moved way out to the burbs and now it's over an hour for me to get into the city. And I'm like, I just, again, I don't, I have three kids at home. Like, I can't justify three hours of travel time for a one hour consult in someone's home. And so that was a challenge because, like, to your point, as a dietitian, I want to be in there and I want to walk through your pantry with you. And I do, you know, with existing clients, I will make the trip, you know, to go see them and things like that. But as a dietitian, I really value that being in your world and in your space and show me what you, your family's food environment looks like. And yet when we can't, either because of pandemic or because of, you know, I'm, you know, just geographical limitations and things like that, it's really great to be able to find ways to make that happen. And I noticed that even, like with the Academy, I give sample meal plans every week of kind of like, just try it. Just have this be a trial meal. And I give tons of modifications of like, you know, to fit within. Love it, like it, learning it. This is how you can make any meal fit for your kid, your family, work with what you have. Like, you know, I give a lot of different options to go with it of trying to make different variations that would work for their family. But I love it because every time someone shares, like, oh, we did this menu from the week, you know, tons of different families can share the same menu and it looks totally different for each family. And I love that they took it. And to your point, they were empowered to take it and run with it in the way that fit for their family. It wasn't so stifled by like, it was supposed to be this or I'm sure as you see sometimes, you know, like, what I often see families experience is a therapy meal looks like this. But I have no idea what to feed my kid at home. And so I think for parents to start to feel a little more empowered of, like, how do you use what you have? I'm not telling you to go to the grocery store, especially during the pandemic, you know, you don't have that luxury. But even in every day, I'm not telling you you have to go to the store and get this specific thing. And this is not your, you know, your specific ticket to cure your picky eaters. If you buy this, this and this, and you spend all this amount of money on these specialized groceries that they then never touch, you know, but to help parents understand, like, let's use what you have let's use what you would normally have, because if you wouldn't normally have it, is that really our priority food for your kid to learn to like, probably not. And so I think it's awesome that you've been able to, you know, serve families in that capacity and be in their homes with them even in a time that you can't be in their homes, and just what a huge support that that offers them, you know, to move forward with.

Yeah, and I think you, you know, you use the word adapt, and I think adaptability is so huge. And, you know, families need to know that, like you said, there is no one best approach. It's what works for you and your family. And keeping in mind, you know, I teach my parents how to have a poker face. There's like, probably, aside from what I've already shared, there's probably two other big things that have come out of this pandemic. One is get your hand on as many frozen foods that you want your child to try, because freezing that or freeze foods and put them away. That way you can take out a little bit at a time, and if they want more, there's more available. But you're also not experiencing food waste, because obviously with picky, selective eating, you know, parents really struggle with throwing foods out that don't get eaten or that get, you know, mashed up on a plate. Nobody touches it, or it just sits out for an hour, and then they're like, well, I don't really want to put that back in the fridge and eat that myself. So, you know, I advise parents, like, smaller quantities, and so it's not overwhelming. And a little bit for everybody and put the rest in the freezer and bring it out again. And that's just the best way to go through the foods and make them last as long as possible. And another thing, as far as just adapting to what you have and what you've got, you know, I tell parents, I'm like, let them pick the plate. Let them pick what fork they want, like what's already in your kitchen. And if maybe they want mommy's fork tonight, maybe it's not a kid fork. Who cares if that makes them excited about that meal? We've already. We're off the ground running. It doesn't matter what's on that plate. You know, like, we want to get them. I mean, it does matter. I don't want to say that, but, you know, whatever small wins we can get are huge. And then I tell my parents, use your best poker face when they do something that seems like you need to get up and dance. You keep your butt in your chair. You don't show them that you're excited about it. You celebrate in your head and you go, huh? Would you like more of that? Or, hey, look, I have that too. Or just say very, you know, casual comments about the meal or what's going on or how your day was. Less focus on, oh, my gosh, you put a piece of the fry on your plate, or, oh, my gosh, you licked it. That's awesome. Like, no, we don't want to draw attention to it, even if it's positive attention, because then they're gonna go, should I not have done that? Should I not do that again? Maybe I should do more of that. Maybe I should do less of that. I mean, we don't want to draw attention to it. So I've had a lot of parents where, you know, it's been really nice to sit, like, directly across them and be like, let's. Let's practice this poker face together. Let's practice. Not over, you know, getting overly excited about one little thing they do, but celebrating those wins internally in our head, and then kind of thinking, like, what's one further step that we might be able to take right now because we just got a major win, it's not going to be too overwhelming. And that might get us one step closer to actually eating that food. Right? So I think that whole adaptability and just kind of playing around with it, every family is going to be different. So doesn't matter what one therapist says versus another, like, what actually works for your family may be completely different than the next family. So I think the group setting is amazing, and I wish I could do something like that online, but it's. It's. It's challenging. I could probably do, like, a prerecorded and put it out there kind of thing, but I don't know that I could do, like, coaching, because I physically would have to be licensed in every state that my attendees are existing in, which always adds a fun element to the mix. But, I mean, so cool that you have this for parents, because it's needed, and I think it's so stressful. And if you have a provider who one has been through it themselves, knows what they're talking about, they've had other families go through it with success. I mean, I think the future of everything we're doing is going to be online. Everybody's kind of figuring that out now, like, oh, holy cow, I better put my course online. And so, you know, awesome for you that you were like five years ahead of the rest of everybody.

Yeah, you know, I mean, it was just kind of by request at first of like, do you have something at a lower price point that still gets me there? And I just. Time it took and I couldn't. I didn't really, you know, so it started out small and like, bless those families who, like, worked through it with me at the beginning, because I didn't really necessarily know how to give every family the attention that they deserved without it being individualized, you know. And so it's been exciting to see it come this this way. And to your point, you know, just give them a lot of these strategies so they know how to be adaptable. And what does a family meal look like? You know, so many families have just gotten so out of that habit, and I think everyone's forced to be getting back into that habit. But, you know, to help them understand and just help them see some of these, like, just easy wins of, like, if you can just, you know, change the tone because your kid got to pick mom's fork versus their fork, like, go with it, you know, and like, some of those things and like, to your point, this small offering, there's just some things that, like, if families can just kind of have in the back of their head some of these strategies that can help all kids and start using those and then start to customize some of the advice that's maybe a little bit more personalized for themselves and, you know, if they're willing to commit to doing that work on their own. But yeah, I just. I think that's exciting that you've been able to do that and I've been thankful to, you know, be able to help families in a similar way, you know, with some similar strategies.

Awesome. This has been amazing. I will make sure that all of your links and everything are available to our link listeners in the show Notes. Is there anything else that you want to share with us that we haven't covered today? I know we talked about a lot, both, like, personally and professionally.

This has been so fun. No, it's been great to get to talk with you, so I appreciate you having me on, but now I think if anyone just has questions or wants to reach out. As I mentioned, my Academy program is available online. You can go to my website and I'm just sure you'll include the link and everything, but they can see there the On Demand or the live, but if they have any questions about, you know, whether that program is good for them or you know if any questions in general just about nutrition and feeding or any way that I might be able to either myself support them or point them in the direction of someone who can, they're always welcome to email me or DM me on Instagram.

Also awesome and I love your Instagram account so everybody needs to go follow you veggies and Virtue.

Well, thanks so much for having me on. I really appreciate getting the time to talk to you.

Thank you. Thanks for listening to this podcast. If you want to hear more of these Myo Tots, Airway and Feeding related episodes, be sure to leave a review on Apple Podcasts or pledge a small amount on patreon.com the Untethered podcast. If you found value, others you know in this space will too. So be sure to share this episode on your social media platforms and join us over on Facebook on my Facebook page at Halibulcan Biz Instagram at Alibulcan and you can head over to theuntetheredpodcast.com to grab a copy of the Show Notes where you can also subscribe to be kept up to date on the latest podcast episodes.