Why Your CFY Doesn’t Prepare You for Feeding Therapy (And What Actually Does)

people will hire you if you have this level experience, but they won't hire you if you don't. And it's like, you can't get that level experience without doing it. But also what's crazy too is sometimes they'll hire you and expect you, like, again, have these expectations that you can do all these things when you don't have that experience. And that's kind of how I felt with feeding therapy.

Hi and welcome back to the Untethered Podcast. Today I am joined by Abigail Kempf, a speech-language pathologist who currently working across a school setting, a pediatric clinic, and acute care hospital, which, let's be honest, is no small feat. She graduated Abigail received her master's degree in August 2024 from Maryville University and is based in Arkansas, where she's built both her career and her life. She's married to her husband Ryan for nearly 11 years, and together they're raising 2 young boys with a third on the way this summer. Like so many newer clinicians, Abigail stepped into her clinical fellowship year eager to learn but quickly found herself overwhelmed, especially when it came to pediatric feeding cases. With limited support and not enough training in assessment and treatment, she knew she needed something more. That's when she happened to stumble upon Feed the Peeds, and everything started to shift for her. Since then, she's been building her confidence, strengthening her clinical skills, and leaning into her passion for pediatric feeding and dysphagia. She's now on a mission to continue growing in this specialty while also providing high-quality care to families in her community. Abigail's story is such a real and relatable one, especially for those of you who are early in your careers and wondering if you're doing enough, if you know enough, and if you are enough. So let's dive in.

Welcome to the Untethered Podcast. I am your host, Hallie Bulkin. I'm a certified myofunctional therapist, feeding specialist, podcaster, business owner, and mentor. This podcast is all about getting your questions answered and collaborating with colleagues to bring you the most up-to-date information in the orofacial myofunctional therapy, airway, tethered oral tissue, and pediatric feeding therapy space. If you're new here, I challenge you to keep an open mind and join my mission to spread this message far and wide.

If you've been around since June 2019, thanks for being a loyal listener.

As we jump into today's episode, remember to listen with correct oral rest posture. Tongue up, lips closed, teeth apart.

Breathe through your nose.

Let's get started.

Abigail, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm excited to chat with you today because, as everybody just heard, we're going to chat a little bit about your career and as an SLP and your interest in feeding and everything. But as we dive into this, what I really want everyone to understand is that you can dive into pediatric feeding. So will you share a bit about your early career experience? Just maybe like what your CFY, your clinical fellowship year looked like?

So I graduated with my undergrad back in 2016, and then I didn't go back to get my master's until 2022. And in the meantime, in that gap, I did not work in the field of therapy, so I didn't really have much to fall back on or really even to reference. I worked a little bit in like a developmental preschool where they offered those sites. Or on the sites they offered like speech, OT, and PT, but I was so young and I don't know, I just, none of it really clicked for me to like kind of stay in that field. And so then I spent the last 6 years before I started to be a speech pathologist in pharmacy. And I loved it, like hands down, that was one of my favorite jobs for a number of reasons, but the biggest one was because of the group of people that I was working with. This all kind of ties into where I'm at now. So it's not just a random anecdote necessarily. What was so significant about that job is that there was a, it was a small group of people, but everybody knew their role and was willing to help everybody. And it was from all different walks of life, like people who had just graduated high school with somebody who was about to have their third or fourth grandchild. So it was quite the range, but everybody got along. And so that was kind of the standard that I was looking for in my future career as a therapist. And maybe I was spoiled, but I thought that that was easily found. But before I graduated with my master's, I accepted a position at a company that was looking to branch, to branch out. So their home base was in a different town or different city, and they were starting a new pediatric clinic where I live. And so I interviewed with them and it was No surprise, like it wasn't out of nowhere that I was gonna be the only SLP on the campus. And then there was gonna be another CODA. So it was just gonna be us two, 'cause they were just starting out here. And so we were gonna kind of build the clinic together, getting referrals, getting evals, and kind of start treatment. And once things started to build, then bring in more people and things like that. And so on the outside, it sounded great. Like I was very excited to be a part of a team from the very beginning. And I'm the kind of person that wants to just stick with something for as long as I can. I was excited about growing with that place and all this stuff. And so fast forward a little bit, I started seeing clients and in my opinion, they felt very complex. It wasn't your kind of traditional articulation or like early intervention necessarily. It was like pretty medically complex cases. I'm stuttering evals, like bilingual severe autistic evals, like things that I kind of felt really overwhelmed by anyway. And I just didn't realize that me being the only one there and not having that direct interaction with another therapist of like, hey, can I pop in real quick and ask a question? Like, I don't know what to do here. It was just really, really hard for me. Coming from a graduate program that was solely online, I thought that that would be okay. But then once I was in it, I was like, no. And so it didn't last very long, which is, which was hard for me and hard for me to accept. But I think it was for the best because I wanted to be able to be around like physical people that I could ask all those questions to, um, that I could see how they do therapy, see how they handle this eval, learn from that and kind of make my own mix of it all. And I just didn't have that. And so by the end of it, it was only like the first little chunk of your CF. So it was just like 4 months and I was like, I can't do this anymore. I was just not a good fit for the group. I think very highly of those therapists. I think that they are very passionate about what they do and very knowledgeable, but they had expectations of me that were not necessarily spoken, and I just felt like I was constantly failing. And so I kind of left that place feeling really depleted, really defeated, and kind of thinking, am I cut out for this? It was a really— it was really hard for me. My husband was extremely supportive and he kept kind of encouraging me to just, let's just move forward. And so I found another place, which was great because it's kind of hard to find places that you could start working right away where I live, I guess. I found it was like a preschool, but they also had a nursery. And so it was kind of like a daycare preschool situation. But once again, they had OT, PT, speech, and developmental therapy on site and a lot of hours, which is kind of what I was looking for because in my mind, my clinical fellowship year was like the last little hurdle I wanted to get over. And I wanted to get that done so that way no one would feel like they have to kind of like carry my baggage with me, having to have a supervisor and all the other things that come with it. And so I was very excited about just finding another place, kind of starting over. And what I learned from my first experience was that I need to advocate for myself. And so I was very clear in that interview. I was like, I feel like I don't know what I'm doing. I want to be around other therapists that can answer my questions in the moment. I want to be around other people that have done this longer than I have. And I was like, I have to be upfront about this. That's what's so important. And I didn't know I needed to say that beforehand in my other situation, but I learned from that. And the lady who interviewed me, she was great. She's like, we've got all that stuff for you. So come on. So I started working there and I was really, I was kind of excited. I had a fresh set of eyes on everything. And I had shared a room with two different therapists at one point, like an SLPA and then an SLP. She had come back from maternity leave. And so they were very kind and they answered my questions. As they could. I was like, okay, this is going really well. Like, I feel a lot less pressure. I don't feel like the standards were like as high as this other place, but they felt way more realistic, which was kind of good for me because I still felt like I was really high maintenance, just trying to ask questions and stuff, which is kind of—

Like, that's what you're supposed to be doing, like, as a CNA.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I kind of felt like I was a burden in a way, but So even just doing all of that and kind of starting to get treatment, we were working a lot with littles. So like 18 months, like 5 years old, and the floor is our best friend and all that stuff. And it was great. Like I was really enjoying it. And then I caught one of my very first pediatric feeding clients and I didn't eval him. I think at that point he might've been 18 months old. He's already had like 2 swallow studies and thicken liquids and all this stuff. And I just was like, I did not know which way was up or down. And I was terrified. Like I didn't want to, I don't know. I was worried I was going to harm this child. I was worried I was just going to like not do something ethical. And I was like, I don't know what to do. And I had asked my colleague and she would give me a little bit of tidbit of advice. Like maybe you could do this or whatever. Looking back, it's a little bit, even in consideration of taking this feeding course through the PEA, which I did like that summer of my CFY. And then looking back at it now, like it's very different than if you are working with the articulation client and you're like, I feel like I've tried everything. And then your colleague pops in and says, have you tried putting a lollipop in their mouth and helping their tongue kind of go back? Something quick and easy to try versus when you're working with feeding therapy, it's like, first off, can that child even tolerate a lollipop in the room? Like we, we have to start way back here. And so I didn't expect her to give me like a 12-week course in that moment, but I felt like that's what I needed. And so it was just really hard to, to come by. And yeah, I felt really overwhelmed and really stuck and just felt like I don't think I'm doing anything right. And Google was always so helpful and I would try to refer back to my notes and stuff from my grad school, but it's so different when you have a client, especially when you didn't eval them. And I felt like he was language and feeding and so I would do language and I would try to do like one little feeding thing just because I wanted to get my toes wet, but also not like do anything dangerous. But I will say Instagram and Facebook every now and then get their advertisements right and stuff. They must have heard my cry for help because I kept seeing these Feed the Peas posts on my Facebook page and I was like, okay, let me, let me look into that. And so I did. And I was. Already very impressed just from reading things. And then there was a free 3-day screener course and I was like, okay, we're gonna do that. Like, that's an easy thing that I can do. Not a daunting task or anything. I can just participate in that. And I'll say that once I did, I was like immediately hooked. It opened my eyes to realize how little I knew about all of it, I guess, applying it in a real life situation. But then also how excited I was to learn about it all. So it wasn't necessarily walking away feeling even more defeated, but feeling more encouraged to say, okay, let's dive in and learn about it now while I have clients that need my assistance. And it's only going to help me for the rest of my career. And so it was a real easy yes. And yeah, so I'm really glad I did that.

That's amazing. Thank you for sharing all of that because from like your early career experience, your CFY, the different settings you worked in, expectations versus what actually happened in reality, I think, and here's, you said one thing where you were like, I didn't know I was supposed to advocate for myself. Well, you shouldn't have to when you're a clinical fellow because your mentor should be there advocating for you, right? And teaching you how to advocate for yourself. And the sad reality is that's not the situation for most of us. I've been working in the schools. I came out of grad school in 2009, I felt like, hey, my supervisors are good. And I had 3 in the county. And no, I honestly, like, they each had different roles. There was one who was a little bit more helpful in terms of like treatment strategy ideas and actually implementation of therapy and everything. Another, the main supervisor. And then another one came and did all of the like assessing of me or whatever. And it was interesting because with 3 supervisors, that's You should have so much support. But honestly, I didn't. And they weren't in the same building as me. So it's not like I could just pop in and talk to them or get ahold of them if I needed them for something. And so I really felt like I was on my own island. And I became friendlier with the SLP who was like a grandma age, but like she was the SLP for the rest of the school. And I was just in the preschool program at one of my sites. And I feel like I connected with her more than I did with my own mentors. But she also was not working with preschool. School and couldn't really guide me on the cases that I was seeing because it was a preschool program where children had significant medical needs in some of the classes and just other delays and disorders. It wasn't like your, your gen ed articulation language-based, which is— I'd have wanted to, it's not fine. It's sad to me that it really hasn't changed much. I think you shared a bit about like one of your first feeding cases, and it is wild to me that as a CF these people hired you, and I think you said a COTA, so an OT assistant, to basically start a program on your own, it sounded like. Like, that's absolutely wild. So not only can the— that COTA cannot assess or treatment plan, they can only treat. And here you are in DFY, who requires supervision and guidance and mentorship and all the things in your first year of working. Not only are we going to just throw you into the fire with the patients, but oh, by the way, we also want you to build this entire program even though you've never worked in this kind of a setting or done this before. Can I tell a story? Yeah. We have Feed the Peets graduates who have now gone through our certification, who are now being asked to, and these are people also with like umpteen years of experience too, right? The 20 years of experience. Now they're being asked to create the program and they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I mean, Hallie kind of does something like this. Can we bring her in to help? So it's like to ask a new grad to do that when people with all the things under their belt, all the experience, all the coursework, all the certifications, all the things, right?

Yeah.

They struggle to do it because it's new to them. Like, it's not about your age or your experience at that point. It's a completely new ask. So I just, I don't know, when you said that, I was like, we need to like listeners that that is not a normal expectation or ask and not, and enough that it's not normal, it's not fair. Like you are a CF and your entire job and goal should be, how do I enter this world, work with these patients while getting mentored very closely in doing so, so that when you end That's— yeah, you can now move forward without like feeling like you need that additional support. Now we all need the support regardless, but over here, like, my gosh, they did you such a disservice. I will— but the lack of support unfortunately is not unusual in our field, as you've probably heard me speak about to no end. Not having mentorship, not having the proper resources or supports, like trying to figure things out alone. People are like, I'm on dysphagia island, and I know we've got like different, different specialties in our area, but it's really difficult to find the right community and the right, the people that either the team that you can like collaborate with, 'cause you talked so beautifully about like wanting and seeking collaboration. And it was so interesting to hear you talk about the pharmacy job because for you to walk right in and for that to be so readily available and in place, right? Like somebody has created a really solid culture there of collaboration, of teamwork, of support, of mentorship, where, and like you said, it doesn't matter if you're right out of high school or you are a grandma of 3 or whatever, everybody was supporting everybody. Yeah, well, we've been trying to change in the SLP field. Like, this is— I feel like we're in just a therapy world in general, but it's, it's such an issue.

And I really feel like I'm of the opinion that I don't ever want to think that I know everything about anything. Like I always want to hear what other people have done or what they've tried or just a different perspective because that can only help me whether I agree with it or whether I don't. I mean, it's still gonna be beneficial. And even right now, like I currently, so after my CF year ended, that was last year at the end of 2025 is when I wrapped up at the place I was at, that preschool. I wanted to leave for kind of a lot of reasons, but I was offered a job at a school, which I told myself I would never work in a school because that just— I've heard all the horror stories more than I've heard the good stories. I'm sure we all have. But this is— it's a small group of all women and they are, again, all through different walks of life. And there's like one lady She's a therapist, she's a speech therapist, and she does all the IEP stuff and she's really good at it and she likes doing it and she does a little bit of treatment too. But it's like, she's kind of the person who takes care of all of this paperwork so we can do all the therapy. And I'm like so grateful for her and she's, I mean, she's wonderful. So that's why I was like, okay, I could tolerate that. But that's a small group of women and they are very, like, I just started there this year and we've already hung out a couple times outside of work. Kind of like, this is great. Everybody is very accepting. And so that's wonderful. And then I also work, I do kind of PRN for acute care and I have always loved that. Like the all things dysphagia is just something that I love. And I knew I loved it even before I entered grad school. But when I started working with pediatrics, I was really interested in pediatric feeding and swallowing. I was scared of it, but like After taking this course, I was like, this is great. Like it just kind of blended what I already love into just adults and peds. And sometimes like the things you learn can kind of go together, not all the time. But I also with that team from the acute care, again, these people are very knowledgeable, very passionate about what they do, have a good time, very accepting. So it's like after this whole like crazy journey of trying to figure out, am I cut out to be an SLP? Like, am I just not worth the time for anybody? Having that extreme self-doubt to where I'm at now with like all the support and all the encouragement is just like a breath of fresh air. And it makes me feel like, okay, I am definitely worth it. Not to sound cocky, but that was something that I was really grateful for even during Be the Peeds when I felt like no one else was encouraging me other than like my husband and my family. Who I'm grateful for, but like, I wanted it in the field that I was working at. You and your team for He The Pea, that was like, I felt number one. I mean, there was always encouragement. I wrote down all the hashtags on sticky notes and I put them in my office because that's so important. I mean, if you're trying anything new and CFI year or CFI experience is all new, especially for me when I didn't have any background experience. And just felt again, like an awkward giraffe trying to just figure out my footing. All that encouragement was, it was very well received and very much needed. And so even just as a young clinician, I really benefited from that. And I know that if I were to take another course of yours for a different certification or whatever later on down the road, if I've been doing this for a year, 2 years, however long, I know that I will still benefit from that encouragement because we all need it. Like At no point are we ever gonna say, you don't need to tell me that I need to, I've got this. Like everyone will benefit from that. And so that was something that was really, really unique and really powerful just throughout that full course that I, that I had noticed. So thank you.

It's nice to hear that too, because we unfortunately still are in a space where oftentimes we're told what we can be, what we can do, what we can't do, what we can't be. And I was really tired of people being like, well, someone told me I can't call myself a feeding therapist. I was like, what are you talking about? It's not an additional, like, licensure. You have the license to do it. You just need to be trained and then start working with patients. And you are a feeding therapist. Maybe you don't call yourself a specialist if you're just getting started, right? But like, doing this for a while and that's who you're treating and that's what you work with, and now you're starting to mentor others, you really are specializing more in that area, right? So anyways, I just— I got to the point where I was like, nope, You get to decide who you wanna be. And we all, but like you said, we all can use that reminder of like, you are awesome. You got this. This is what you're here to do. These kids need you. Like, let's go do this. Right? I mean, it doesn't suit anybody to be like, you're not good at this, don't do it. Like, or you need more years of experience before you can do X, Y, and Z. Well, how do you get the experience? Exactly. It makes sense. Exactly.

It's gonna help you. I mean, Yeah. But yeah, it just, it feels so like that's what the catch-22 is, right? Like people will hire you if you have this level of experience, but they won't hire you if you don't. And it's like, you can't get that level of experience without doing it. And yeah, I just, but also what's crazy too is sometimes they'll hire you and expect you like, again, have these expectations that you can do all these things when you don't have that experience and you really do need that experience. Or that training or just that guidance. And that's kind of how I felt with feeding therapy. I mean, working with adults versus pediatrics, I was a little more scared of pediatrics because not only am I working like with the client themselves who doesn't care probably if they're on second language, they just wanna go play with a toy right now, but we're really also pretty closely working with the family and the caregivers and it's like you're working with two groups of people that The parents are their advocate, as they should be. And so there's a lot of education involved and there's a lot of like patience and like caring their perspective and meeting them where they're at, but also trying to figure out where the client's at and how we can get them to where they need to be to like safely function and swallow and eat and all these things. And just creating that individualized goal for the patient slash family. And how that's different with every single person you interact with, it just felt really scary, but I wanted to do it. Like I really wanted to dive in. One thing that, I mean, and I will just, I will continue to always praise this course because I've been very impressed with it even way down the road, is that it's not just, well, I was a clinician in the moment and I wanted somebody to tell me how to do treatment for this child. I didn't know how to do treatment. We didn't start there. We started from way back here. We started from the prenatal development and I was like, okay, we all kind of sort of know this, but to start from the very, very beginning and walk through the typical development of newborn, 6-month, year old, and so on. And then taking that same reverse of like atypical development, like, and that's where you kind of get maybe more pediatric feeding cases. And so you can understand the true difference and like what actually would be worth you kind of double looking at, kind of saying, I don't know, this, this open mouth thing is, this isn't normal. And then now they have an open mouth. And I remember taking your course and we got to like the myo part of the course and you were like, I'm sorry, you'll probably never be able to walk into an airport or a mall or anywhere and just look at people normally. Because now every time I see somebody with an open mouth, and that's like one of the first questions I ask anybody, you're an open mouth breather. I'm just, I'm like, when they say yes, my wheels start to turn and I'm like, okay, well, this is kind of a big deal. And they're like, really? I'm like, oh my gosh, I know. And a lot of times parents, like when I ask them, right, is your child, are they an open mouth breather? They really have to stop and think about it. And I ask that because I really want to know about their perspective, but sometimes I see the child right here. I'm like, it's very obvious. But like, do you realize that? And so it's just learning about all these little things that you wouldn't think would be connected to feeding, but it totally is. And it just made me realize like we need, like having that foundation laid in place for all things feeding for like typical oral motor function, typical airway function, typical swallow function, and then Putting in things that are atypical, that really built my confidence and understanding of, okay, I may not totally understand it right off the bat without asking deeper questions, but I know that this is an issue or could be an issue. So let's dive into it. Whereas before I was, I don't know, I felt like I was running around with my head chopped off. I get the feeling.

Been there. This like increased confidence. Better understanding of like feeding and how to approach those patients, it then has a direct impact on your caseload, right? And so that's amazing. And that's, that's honestly why we built it, right? We built this so that you could come and learn like what is typical, so we know what atypical looks like. And then how do we put this into assessment? How do we build treatment plans? How do we actually address this? Well, the treatment becomes really clear when we know what this, what this child should be doing, right, developmentally, and what they're not yet doing. And we can see like, oh, they have some splinter skills, they do this and this, but they're not doing this yet. Okay, let's go back and work on these foundational things. And it really just comes back to function, like how is this impacting their day-to-day function and what is fair to expect from this child skill-wise based on their presentation, based on whatever else may be going on. Nobody teaches it that way. And I didn't even have pediatric feeding in grad school. I feel like I was a person who went, took umpteen hours. Like I shared this in 3-day training. I'm like, I took, I don't know, I probably spent like 10 grand, I don't know, on feeding courses. I tried to take like everything under the sun. And all these hours, time away from work, and I still felt confused at the end. I was like, I am still not sure how to assess for treat. And every time I leave a course, like, I think they're teaching great information. I'm having trouble functionally applying it to my caseload and like trying to like make sense of it all. And so ultimately I'm like, that's why I created this, right? I created the course that I wish that I had in grad school. And it's funny because people who have been in the field for 25 years, 30 years, they come through and take the course. And it's always very interesting to hear their feedback because sometimes they're like, wow, you completely shifted my perspective on things. Or this was, some of it was review because I know some of this, but also like, wow, I learned a lot of new information. And I'm like, that's fantastic. Like, I feel good about your investment then if you, if you, oh, and you got something great out of it, but they've always given us really good feedback. And so And like, I just still feel like there's nothing out there that really pulls everything in like holistically and it says, hey, here's an approach that you can use that's really functional and goes beyond like just theory and some treatment strategies. Like, yes, we are. And it's so funny because everyone's like, we want more treatment strategies. Treatment strategies are great, but if you don't know why you're using them, or like sitting here and doing 5-point Why are you biting on bite blocks? Why are you doing that? Is that what that child needs, or did you just learn this in a course, right? And like, I'm not hating on any of these exercises or courses because we need them, but again, it should be individualized. We should know why we're doing it. We should know what our end goal is and like, what are we working towards? Like, what is the functional impact here, right? And so anyways, I love that you, that you shared what changed for you because I think it's just so helpful for people to hear. And I love, for me, I'm like, for the time and energy that we poured into like bringing this to the world, that's really ultimately our goal was to make this easier for you all. Cuz feeding is not easy, but if we can make it a little bit easier, make y'all feel like you have a place cuz we give lifetime access, like a place that you can even go back to if you get a kid where you're like, ooh, they talked about this. Let me go search and see if I can find where in the course they were talking about this diagnosis or working on these skills. I was just like, as a person who's neurodivergent, who's ADHD, I'm like, that's what I need in my life. I need that, that searchable feature in the future when the kids— I'm never going to remember everything I learned during an actual course.

Exactly. And that's what even grad school is like too, where you have like all this information and it kind of feels like the Cliff Notes version. Like it's still very valuable, but for me it's hard to just jump in and be like, I learned it all, boom, I can apply it. It's like, no, we still, we're still pulling from things. We're still trying to build off of that foundation that we kind of have and just going even deeper. And so yeah, this course was, I mean, it was very, very doable. 12 weeks sounds kind of daunting. It's like a whole semester, but I mean, I obviously am working, so I have a job and a husband and a house and I have two little kids that have It did not feel like I was adding on another full-time job to it. It was very obtainable. And a lot of times I would like pull up the slides at work and just like, I'd have my kiddo with me and I'd look through these things. I'd be like, okay, this, we're going to just do it in real time. And of course no one's sitting there judging me, which is great because if you're working with an adult, they're like asking you all these questions, but I'm like, okay, we're going to read it and then do it. And that really helped me because I learned about it. I heard about it and now we're doing it. And so that was, yeah, it's very. It was like instant application, at least for me with, with some of my little feeding kiddos. So that is great.

Amazing. Well, and I think one thing we did change up for the first time this past round was we made it a 10-week because I think people feel very overwhelmed. Now it's still the same amount of content, so we'll see. We're getting— when we get feedback, we'll find out if that was a good change or not. Yeah. If it's a good change, we'll keep it for May. And if it's not a good change, then maybe we'll go back to 12 weeks. Yeah, but we basically decided, okay, the first 3 modules are typical development. So as soon as somebody enrolls, they get immediate access to that now instead of waiting until like a week later for us to like start releasing module 1, 2, 3. So we're like, while everybody's like really excited and enrolling, like let's give them those first 3 modules. So we basically did that and kind of condensed those down. And then module 4 is then released like pretty quickly thereafter. And so it, it could be a lot of information upfront cause it's all the typical development and then we jump right into assessment. But we're like, it's, it's still, it's still pretty well. There's only like one set of case studies that go with that mod 1 through 3. So it doesn't add any additional calls. It does, you don't lose any of the calls. So anyways.

Yeah, man. But that's a tiny thing. Yeah. Yeah.

But it was, it was partially, we were like, okay, we know people have been really successful doing this with the 12-week program, but I just think, like you said, 12 weeks sounds like a lot. 10 weeks, I just think sounds a little bit more doable for some people. And so we're like, let's try it out and see. But we've also had a lot of feedback. People will tell us like, oh, it's super flexible. And 'cause like I've had, I just spent like a month and a half having conversations with people who are thinking about doing the CPFT and the certification. And so some of them were like, is it, is it flexible like Feed the Peas? Is it about the same amount of work? Like what does that look like on a weekly basis? Like I really enjoyed how like I could still be a full-time working person and work this into my schedule and I didn't feel overwhelmed. And I was like, yes, this is basically how we built it out. Like there's a little bit more, it's longer, so it's more overall, but we really try to make it doable for working people. Cuz otherwise what's the point, right? If you buy something that's supposed to be helpful to you that you're like learning, like yes, it's gonna be a little extra work, but we want you to feel supported. And it was, that was the whole idea behind Feed the Peeds too. So I love how like you share the real life application though, because Being able to like take what you learned and actually even just pull up the slides with the patient sitting right in front of you and then do it like in real time. That's amazing. So kudos to you. I don't think anyone's ever told me they've done that.

I love that.

I love that.

Man, the highlighters, like I'm a, I'm an underliner, I'm a note taker, I'm a highlighter. And so I didn't, I didn't have a printer at my house, so did it on the computer. And so that went with me. And so yeah. For sure.

And then it sounds like you've also really found your community now too. So maybe they're not all feeding therapists per se, but you're in a setting where it feels like you're supported. You've kind of found your people. You're around clinicians who maybe, again, if they're not all pediatric feeding therapists, they at least get what you do and they are supportive.

Yes.

That's amazing.

It's great too because the, the lady who she's on this, she owns the little business and so she has a contract with the school. Which is also opening up her own clinic. And so they've started seeing some kiddos and I've told her from the beginning, I'm like, I wanna do all the feeding things. She's like, oh, okay. And what's so funny is that a couple of people, when I was trying to find a job, like this was even after the Feed the Feet course, and I'd interviewed with a couple different places and they were like, so what are you most interested in? And I always said feeding and swallowing and everybody, and some of them were SLPs that were interviewing me. They were like, "Really?" Like, they were really surprised by that. Like that, I guess that's not a normal thing. I don't know. Or maybe it's not normal where I'm at. And I was like, "Oh yeah, like I would love to do that. I'd love to do feeding therapy. I would love to become a certified pediatric feeding therapist and eventually work my way into doing myo." Like, that would be fantastic. That's kind of the long-term goal.

Yeah.

And they were always like, "Oh wow. Okay, listen, so." I don't know if it's just because it was Hallie Bulkin. Yeah. And so even now, as the clinic there is starting to build, which is kind of nice because I don't feel like I have to just be the only one to help build that. But I always tell her, like, if there's any pediatric feeding evals or referrals, like, I would love to do them because I feel like— and I told her, I was like, not that I'm the best, not that I am years and years of experience, but because I want to get better and I feel like I have the resources fall back on and, and do it right. And so I always make that disclaimer, like, I'm not the best, but I want to be the best. And now I have resources that make me feel confident to do that. And she's like, okay, great.

Wonderful. But awesome. And I love that for you. Okay. So you also shared that there was like a little bit of an ethical dilemma that you came across with like SLPs claiming they were doing feeding therapy, but they were not actually doing feeding therapy. Can we, Can you just tell, I mean, I don't know what more there is to say about it. What can you share with us?

Well, so one of the biggest reasons why I was, why also my CFY felt very trying was when I was at that preschool/daycare space, the room that I shared with was with an SLP and she had some feeding stuff and she'd been a therapist for like 4 or 5 years. So she has some experience, but she would have some feeding kiddos and like do a little bit, like maybe like a minute or two of work and think she'd be kind of done or whatever. And I remember one time she had like a 4 or 5 month old little girl who had like laryngeal myelatio or something kind of pretty significant. And she would do a little bit of like stuff, I guess, like maybe give her a pacifier and pull it out. I don't know. It was like, I would kind of watch cause I'm like, okay, I was very interested in this. Okay. And then she would type up so bad, but she would put the baby down on her back and literally turn her back on the child and scroll on her phone. And that was something, I mean, that was not like a one-time thing. That happened almost daily. And I got to a point where I was like, I didn't know how to handle that situation because I was like, one, this is just not safe. And two, it's not right. And three, we're not doing therapy. So I got to a point where I felt really uncomfortable. But I didn't know how to handle that. And so I would just, whatever I was doing with my kiddo, we would just bring it to the floor and we, and I would hang out with the baby and my kiddo. And so we would, we would do that and nothing ever changed. And so I didn't know if that was, and don't get me wrong, like I'm not saying, I'm not gonna sit here and say I've never been on my phone before. I have a child in school. I've had to answer my phone when the school nurse calls. He was acting crazy and hit his head at the table.

It's a little different.

Like there's, there's a difference between phones are obviously much more accessible than they were when we were kids or whatever, but there's a difference. And I just was like, that really took me, really took me back. And so that was a really big reason why I didn't want to be a part of that team because if anybody found out, I don't want them to think like I did that or I don't know. It just—

You were put in a position that you shouldn't have been put in, first of all. Yeah. Like that. And then it, it's also as a CF, it's like, is this something that you report? Is this something that like, and then you work with these people and they know who reported it, so then that they make your life hard. Like it's just, it's not a good situation all around unfortunately. But also it sounds like they need some cameras in there.

I know. And like the lady that I work with now, 'cause she had asked me like, 'cause she was like, I wouldn't, if you don't mind, like why are you, why are you trying to look for a job so quickly after you've just started. And I, like, I was trying to be really respectful because one, I realized it's not my license that's at risk, but it's more than that. It's like, we are doing a huge disservice for the children that need therapy, feeding or not. I mean, whatever the case may be. And so I was trying to tiptoe around it. And finally I told her and she's like, "You are not the first person to tell me about that." And I thought, is this a normal thing? And in this whole time, like, I felt like I've experienced every emotion very widely of like true self-doubt and, and like lack of approval, just based on like the expectation versus reality. And then like really, really high confidence and really proud moments to like, oh my gosh, what do I do? And I just, it felt like such a wide range of things. And I was like, am I just, am I just not realizing that the therapy world is something that it's not? And I've just fantasized it. Like, I just think everybody out here is as passionate as Hallie and these other therapists that I've heard of. I've been mentored during my graduate program, but like, now that I'm really in it, maybe it's not that glamorous. Come to find out that's not the case.

You just unfortunately had a bad experience to kick off your career, which is— yeah, I don't, I don't think it's uncommon, unfortunately, though, as far as like the lack of support. Now, I don't think there's a ton of therapists out there who are just putting babies down and scrolling on their phones, per se, but yeah, hopefully that's not common. Yeah, but I do think like the lack of support, the lack of therapists knowing what they're doing, the lack of people feeling like, I got this, because they don't have the proper support as they're coming right outta grad school. And that's kind of one of the things that we set out to change too, where we were like, this has gotta stop. Like, we have got to start supporting more. And one of the big things coming outta certification is a lot of people coming outta the certification are now mentors. And so now they're going and mentoring in the field. And so I'm like, this is really cool because it's coming full circle. Like, they came to us for mentorship, they course with us, maybe we opened it up to the general public. So now not everybody who's coming in has taken Feed the Peeds, but they've taken equivalent coursework, like 40 hours of introductory level coursework that like kind of over time has matched Feed the Peeds. And so now some of our current certification candidates going through certification right now, it's, it's really cool to see how the goals are still the same. A lot of them are like, I wanna help build out a feeding program, or I wanna mentor others, or I wanna do X, Y, it's so. We're seeing, or I wanna get into a NICU or whatever that goal is. There's like a lot of very common goals that I had conversations about. And even the ones who didn't come in in the last two cohorts, our first two cohorts as like desire to become a mentor, a lot of them left being like, you'll never believe what happened. Like I'm the go-to mentor. I'm mentoring other people now. Like I feel really confident in helping them. And I'm like, that's incredible. Like that is so cool. It was not maybe our initial goal for creating this per se. Our goal is really like, let's help you get to expert level so you can go out and work with these kids and feel really good about the work. And then we have more people helping these kids and knowing what they're doing. Yeah, it's just on a deeper level, but the fact that they're all coming out like with that mentor feeling like they really are specialized and now they can go mentor others, I'm like, oh wow, this could actually exponentially increase how many feeding therapists are out there that actually can go help the kids now. Because if people are properly trained and they feel good about it and they feel like really confident in now helping others work with the patients. Okay, like we just opened a whole new opportunity for your firm, Feeding Therapy, to evolve. So it's just, it's been very, very cool. But anyways, you, okay, so I know you have two, but you also have baby number three on the way, which you shared with us, and you mentioned like there's ways to implement feeding therapy into your own home. So will you tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah, so this is, I guess, kind of more hypothetical in a way, but like my two older boys are, they're neurotypical. So we didn't have any kind of feeding or any kind of medically complex situations that we had to deal with, which again, I'm very grateful for and have a lot of respect and admiration for parents that do have medically complex children or kiddos who have sensory or oral motor, just with feeding-related stuff. I mean, that's hard. Like sometimes it's just hard to get your child to eat their food if it's not a cookie or whatever. And it's like, we've all been there, but like there's a whole other level. So a lot of respect for parents who have to kind of walk that journey. But one of the things that I was really excited about, so I breastfed both of my boys for like 14 months until they told me basically that they're done. I wasn't ready, but they wanted to be done, so respect their wishes. But I felt like I didn't know what I was doing, honestly. The second time I had a little bit more confidence because I had that previous experience. But even with this time, I'm really excited to trial a couple different positions that would benefit me, but also like my baby. Um, and I feel a lot more prepared and kind of learning about the hunger cues. Learning about, or having learned about the hunger cues and having learned about different positions and like ways to help satisfy like their little bellies and their little bodies as they process this. And I didn't even think twice about it really. I just knew this is what you do. You just put them to the boob and then they figure it out and you go from there. And I never knew why people struggled, but after taking this course, that was part of it. Like there was a part of breast and bottle and how to support whatever The family chooses. And I was like, oh my gosh, this makes so much sense. And my sister and my sister-in-law and brother just had a baby and she's having some, not difficulties, but she's still trying to navigate how to do all that stuff. And I'm like, if you have questions, I would love to help you. Or I can kind of show you some things maybe. Even that part of being a parent, or at least being a mom, because I can always speak from motherhood, but That part is something that I was really excited about. Really, again, had no exposure. I didn't really have any education on it. Like when I left the hospital with my first baby, it was like, okay, he finally, he finally nursed for a little bit. You're good to go. And I'm like, but how do you, like, how do you do this at home? Like what, like what do I do? I mean, I just, I felt like they just, again, threw me out the door and were like, all right, he ate, you're good. And it's like, okay, what about the long-term sustainability? Because I still don't know what I'm doing. And so being able to, again, have a layer of confidence to have just, this is baby number 3, I've got this, not worried about it, but also having a whole other layer of confidence through actual education and seeing how things work and why they don't work and what could make it better and how to even do that for my friends and family members who are having babies. And that's something that I would— hopefully everything is going well, will go well with baby number 3. But I always, I just thought this is something that I could apply in my own home. And it's knowledge for my own personal sake, but even for like my husband who will probably do a bottle at some point, like, hey, let's try this way if he's not taking it or if he's fussing or if he's really gassy or whatever. Like having a better understanding of how the whole system works to the little guys and little girls is just, I think also very empowering as a parent too. And it would be So fun to be in our NICU, but I don't, I don't know if that'll ever happen.

I love it. I love all that you have for yourself. Well, all of this now, do you have any advice for like a newer clinician? Because you've obviously had this recent, semi-recent experience as a newer clinician. You, you're so well spoken. It sounds like you've been a clinician for a while, but I do feel like you also just kind of finished out your CF year. Congratulations, by the way. And It was a wild ride. And so I'm glad that you're in a much better situation right now and you're more, you're, you're better supported. But yeah, any like advice for new clinicians?

I would definitely, so one of the big things I learned, we kind of touched base on earlier, was just to advocate for yourself. I learned like looking back, there's no small ask. I mean, if the worst thing they could say is no, but it's better to overask than not ask at all. And I think it's really important to just remind yourself that at some point everybody started where you're at, like whether they had, you know, whether they had years of experience and then went to grad school or whether they didn't work at all in the field and then went to grad school, whatever that looks like. I mean, there's always somebody else that's in your kind of situation and it may look different just with your personality and where you're at and where you're working in the setting of things like that, but just to understand that while it might feel really overwhelming and daunting because it's kind of that last hurdle before you're— I always called it like before I'm a real SLP. You're a real SLP right when you graduate and take that Praxis and pass it. So don't doubt yourself there. But to know that it is totally, totally okay to feel overwhelmed and to feel like you don't know anything, but don't let that overpower you. Let that fuel you and realize, okay, I need to look for people who do know what they're doing. Or can find resources just like this course or maybe other courses if you're wanting to do a different aspect of our field or scope of practice. But yeah, just remember, like, you are cut out for this. You did, like, the hardest part, which is all the grad school stuff and the studying. And so now it should be the fun part of applying it. It might be messy, obviously, because nobody's gonna be able to jump in and do it perfectly right away. I know I'm still way far from that, but it's okay. Like, this is the fun part now. This is the part where you get to kind of apply what you learned and, I don't know, I love that. Find your own voice in doing it all too. So that's important.

I love that. I love all of this. Like, you're not alone. Find your own voice, advocate for yourself, do it fancy, all the things. This has been so amazing, Abigail. Thank you so much.

I really appreciate it. Of course. Thank you so much for having me. I really do appreciate it as well.

Quick disclaimer. All information, content, and material of this podcast are the opinions of the speakers and serves as informational purposes only and not intended to serve as a substitute for the consultation, diagnosis, and/or medical treatment of a qualified healthcare provider.

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