Harry Harrington Red Wine interview by Laurent Darrieux of Cosmic Bonsai

À la gloire, à mon commandant, voilà s'il y a de belles guerres au monde. Oui, à la gloire, à mon commandant, c'est les plus fidèles de tous de l'ombre de mes cuisses. Allons en avant, à chaque instant on va montrer que notre gentillesse est grande, à mon commandant, à mon commandant. So today we receive like Harry Harrington, the famous bonsai master from England. He's gonna present himself after. So I explain you the principle of the red wine interview. That is to say that we're gonna have the interview and drink one at the same time.

Yes, this is a good idea. It's good idea.

And I offer him two jokers that. If there is some questions doesn't want to answer, you can use the joker.

Thank you very much. And you might want to stop me answering, and that hand.

Maybe, maybe.

You may use the joker.

We're gonna see that. And so I have like few questions. Normally, I'm not gonna do exactly the question I wrote. It's just to help me. Yeah, yeah. So sometimes we can let maybe like disgrace sometime and. speak about something else, whatever. It has to be natural. So it's, uh, um, Harry is going to be like a laboratory rat because it's the first interview. So maybe I'm gonna do a lot of mistakes. I hope it's gonna be cool. I know Harry is a cool guy.

So some days, yeah, sometimes.

So first things we're gonna do, I'm gonna have a glass of red wine, good wine. Bought in Bordeaux.

Am I supposed to sniff this, or can I just—

No, you do, you do the English way, just swallow it. I know how you do. Is that the French, the French way, you know? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Smell it.

Cheers. It's been a long day getting here to Telford, so it's a very good one.

That's perfect. You like it? Yeah, it's perfect. So we're going to start by—

for a French wine, it's not bad.

But we are the king in wine, you know it. In food also. So we don't boil, you know, the beef with mint. So first question, is it easier with girls when you are a bonsai master?

Yes, yeah, absolutely. It's interesting. Yeah, it's an interesting thing. And my apprentice Toby, who you've met, he said, you know, when he was on dating sites and stuff like that, when people found out he was working and doing bonsai, they were so interested because it's a lot more interesting for a woman than playing football or something like that.

Why did you think? They believe you are more wise or more zen?

Yeah, I think so. I think so. They don't realize that you're covered in mud most of the time and you swear a lot. And no, seriously, I think it's always done me good.

Well, maybe they believe you are rich.

Possibly.

No, so it's really— it's more easier. Did you find a difference before or after you started bonsai?

I wouldn't have noticed. I wouldn't have noticed. At that point, I was living with someone for quite a long time, so that was a good thing.

So you, you have a girlfriend?

Yes, at the moment, yes.

Yeah, for a long time?

Um, I've had various people in my life, and at the moment I'm being with someone for a few years.

Okay, a few years.

Okay. Oh yeah, yeah.

Kids? No, no, you never had kids?

But I have, I have 2 children.

You have 2 children?

By 2 different mothers. So I've been raising my daughter Alice since she was 2. Oh, she's good? And she's 15 now. Alice is a girl. My son is Toby's age, so he's like 29 now.

Oh, okay.

He's in Australia.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

Great. So for those who don't know you yet, I hope there's nobody that doesn't know you. Those who live in a cave, maybe. Can you describe your career in a few words?

Um, I started bonsai in— are we looking into the camera today? Am I looking at you? Am I talking to your eyes?

This is just like this normal conversation.

I, uh, I started getting interested in bonsai in 1995, but I was a gardener.

How old were you?

25.

25.

But I grew up with parents who loved gardening, and I spent my life outside in the garden as a child, around it all, even if it was having bonfires and sweeping up leaves or mowing lawns. It's just being outside in that environment. And apparently, as a child, it was difficult to get me in the house. So When I ran off and did crazy things as a teenager, and it wasn't until I settled down around the age of 25, I realized I remembered my passion for plants and gardening and how much I actually knew. And it's something that I found recurs quite often with people I meet who grew up in a gardening environment. They love plants, but they're kind of almost so used to being around them, they don't— it doesn't sink in that this is so important to them. And when they start settling down with a woman, maybe having kids and getting somewhere to live, and they have their first garden, and they remember how much their passion is for being outside and growing things. And very, very often it's when people are Just hitting the 30s, got the first garden. Maybe the wife just wants a nice lawn, and they discover bonsai, and the passion just goes boosh. Because, and I think it's a lot of it is childhood memories, childhood just knowing how plants, if you cut them, they respond, and they may do this or they may do that, and they know it in a gardening context. And then they start applying it to trees. I have come across people who grew up not doing anything in the garden, and even mowing the lawn was something that was new to them. No concept of plants, and they do find it a lot harder when they come into bonsai. It may be artistic tastes, but that almost innate horticultural Knowledge isn't there, knowing the seasons, knowing the passing of the seasons, how things change.

So you wanted more to share your passion?

So, well, I became very interested in bonsai when I was 25. When I was 30, I broke my back and was pretty bad for a few years. But that's where I went crazy. Everything bonsai, did nothing but bonsai, and it was very therapeutic for me going from someone who could work really hard as a landscaper and a gardener to basically really struggling to even get into a car because I was in a lot of back pain. And doing bonsai really was so therapeutic, I could block out the pain I was in, and it gave me a purpose, you know, it really, really gave me a purpose.

A goal.

Something in life. And again, this is something that I've come across with people before. They've had some kind of injury, something's happened in their life that's quite traumatizing, and they find bonsai very therapeutic. So there's a few aspects going on. So for me, that was when I started writing Bonsai for Me, um, and I just wrote it. It was a goal, it was a passion to just get information somewhere in one place that I could share with everyone. And it didn't make any money. I just wrote it and I wrote it and wrote it.

Just for fun?

For 5, 6, 7 years without making a penny. And it was only when I started putting a few Google ads on that I made anything. I just did it because you could call it stupid, but it was just— I was just focused, and that was my focus. Pain wasn't my focus, it was bonsai. Um, and at the time when I wrote Bonsai for Me, it didn't have my name anywhere on there. It was anonymous. So I had no plans on being a bonsai artist.

So when did you start to have a plan to be professional?

Never. It just happened.

Yeah, but now you're a professional, so you started one day.

Well, I started making money and—

When was it?

Oh, probably, um, probably by about 2006, 2007.

Okay.

I started making a little money but not enough to live on, and it wasn't until I started publishing books as a way of monetizing. Making money in any art is incredibly difficult.

Yeah, I know.

Um, and bonsai is even harder.

Yeah. Um, don't, don't forget to drink.

I've got a flow on it.

Come on, come on, you're gonna have a lot of things to say, don't worry.

I've always got too much to say. But that was— that's where I started making money. was when I started publishing books, and I guess social media came along and people started realizing, oh yes, the guy who wrote Bonsai for Me is actually this guy, Harry Harrington.

Have you been awarded in England? Have you been awarded in exhibitions, kind of things?

No, I don't really like showing trees. So I've got 2 trees here today at the Telford Show. But it's only because they kind of asked me if I could bring something.

So, you never tried really to get awarded?

No.

You didn't give a shit about that?

It's— I don't care about that. It's the creation side that I enjoy. And for me, getting the perfect photograph, crazy as that might sound, but the perfect photograph in my garden to have in a book or on the website is actually what I enjoy.

Yeah.

that's my release and I get a good picture and put, or put a tree in front of that backdrop and it goes, and there is my—

So finally your book is your kind of award for yourself?

Yeah, yeah, well, that's what gives me the satisfaction.

You do your own exhibition on paper?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's something that happens that drives me to keep doing it. Whatever that is, I'm quite happy with it.

So you will die doing bonsai?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No passion?

It's just how it is, yeah.

That's cool, I like this idea.

I've had so many people over the years say to me, Harry, I would love to go into bonsai and make some money and live off it. And I see all these little startup companies, you know, And I always say to them, make your money somewhere else. Do bonsai because it's your passion.

Yeah, sure.

And if you can find another way to exist that allows you to create, that will make you the best bonsai artist and will give you freedom. I'm lucky because I spent all that time writing. I have books, and the books essentially come from the— you know, I'm quite good at writing. And that brings in an income and it frees me up to create things that are satisfying to me rather than that are commercially, you know, they're not good commercially for people and are very boring and ordinary, but you know, you can sell some money, get yourself some money.

So that's interesting. So except the pleasure you get Doing bonsai, what is the other things that doing bonsai teach you when you're doing it? You and your students, what you try to transmit to them?

Exactly the same. Enjoy it. Enjoy what you're doing. Um, I think there's a lot of— my son's into— he's now a trained music therapist, and there's a lot to be said for playing music, different types of music to people, for all kinds, you know, with all kinds of mental health issues or ADHD or depression. And honestly, I think a lot of visual artists are doing the same thing for themselves.

It is by all self-made men, you mean?

They're self-medicating.

Therapeutic. Therapeutic. Yeah. Okay.

Creating something is something— it's like an itch. If you haven't created something for a few days, you've got to scratch that fucking itch.

Yeah.

You create something and you're—

Yeah, I mean, you create the, the reality of the ugly world, right? That's what I feel when I do bonsai. It's like the reality disappears for the moment I'm doing bonsai. I'm just in my own world.

You're there.

Yeah.

Everything else is gone.

Your bills are still there, your troubles are still there, but for a moment they are completely disappeared.

But I think this is all artists, and my medium is bonsai. I draw a painting, but the brushstrokes take 5 years to make. And this is where you have in your garden, you may have 100 paintings that you're drawing Yeah, and evolving.

It's never stopped.

Like, you know, when you draw a painting, it's finished, you make another one. You know where your trees are going, you just got to wait for the growth to come in. Yeah, you know how it will look in a few— if you're lucky. I think it is having a visual memory really does help a hell of a lot. Um, and I think one of the, the most important things to get good at bonsai is You get the buzz from creating, you look at what you've created and you enjoy it, but 2 days later, you start looking at ways and thinking, I could have done this. If I'd done this and I'd done this, at year 2 or in year 4, this would be even better. And you don't get depressed about it, it drives you to go even better and better and better. Yeah.

That's an empiric system. More you train, more you're getting better.

Right. Okay. Am I talking enough?

Yeah, but no problem. It's perfect.

It's perfect.

So do you have any interesting anecdotes from your apprenticeship? But you didn't have apprenticeship, so this question doesn't— yeah, you're a self-made man.

I think that's important.

That's another question. Do you believe you need to, to work, to, to learn from a master, or do you believe you, you can learn by yourself?

You can learn by yourself, and that's what I did, and I'm very, very, very, very lucky I had the time.

But at the same time, another question, sorry I cut you, but at the same time, you read some books from Japan, you, you get a lot of information, so, so I mean, I was taking information from everywhere.

Yeah, I read huge numbers of Japanese articles.

So you learn from them?

Yeah, absolutely.

That's the question.

But I'm absorbing it in my own way, and unfortunately there's a lot of poor information out there which can lead you down blind alleys. Um, but things like Bonsai Today was absolutely fantastic. for the Japanese articles. Walter Paul in the 2000s, particularly the early 2000s, was doing a lot of posting and he was really pushing the naturalistic style.

And he was the first to show the Yamadori in Europe.

And he caused so much ridiculous hassle over it. But that— the way he spoke and the way he taught by writing He's showing his trees and I still remember he put a picture up and this is the very early days of forums where you could actually have an image. He put a picture up and I just go, wow! You know, when you see a picture and then I look at it and go, yeah, but that's wrong, isn't it? Because that— there's 2 branches opposite each other and this is wrong and this is wrong.

Sorry. I'm sorry, but it's gonna make noise. I'm gonna put it here like this. Sorry.

But I would look at his trees and technically there were things that were wrong and I'd be like, okay, so this tree has really blown me away, but it's got 2 bar branches opposite each other. It's got this problem, it's got this problem, this problem, but that tree has just spoken to me through a photo. He's playing with other elements than just going left, right, back, left, right, back.

And the flat branches.

And then, yeah, and a ridiculous tree on top of a tree thing and he was studying Walter's trees, it really opened my eyes and then realizing that what Walter was doing was actually what the Japanese have been doing. It's just that his interpretation was far deeper than the cartoon images that people had brought over from Japan, assuming that all bonsai in Japan were like that. That was our really basic—

But that's very good conversations because do you believe that actually the modern bonsai in Japan is getting more and more artificial compared to the ancient kokufu, for example? If you see, they were more wide, more anarchic, right? And more it's evolving, more they look like artificial.

I think perfect but artificial. On this side, and I, I know how to style trees in an abstract way where it looks like a bonsai, it does not look like a tree. And the other side is you're creating a bonsai that looks like a tree, the naturalistic side. And if someone asks me to work on their tree, I say Not so much these days because people have moved to the naturalistic. They understand it.

Some.

Not all. Some people are still—

If you speak about naturalistic to Italians, they will jump.

Yeah. And then I think you've got that dependent on species and things like that. Um, but you need to know how to— my thoughts are a tree belongs the owner.

Yeah.

And you respect the owner. What you don't do, if someone puts a tree in front of you, you don't come along and whack it.

Yeah.

You say to the owner, how do you see this tree? How do you— do you want something this tall? You realize that if we made it shorter, it would make it look older, but I'm not going to just chop it. We'll make the best of what you want as the owner and what I can give you as the artist. And I think there's some arrogance with some artists where they'll just chop a tall tree down to the first branch and they know in their head that in 5 years' time that tree might be better.

That's the fast way.

But the owner, the owner is left with something that is— and all the enjoyment is being removed.

The owner is frustrated.

Yeah.

You speak too much, don't drink enough.

It's because it's been a very long day setting up. Yeah, I know where you've been hanging out. You, the French Bohemian artists, are hanging around the hall chatting to people. Um, I've been setting up the stands, organizing.

You have no idea how many questions people ask me.

Oh, walking across the hall is, is difficult, isn't it?

Um, so, okay, then we're gonna jump some questions because by asking you questions that you speak so much that, uh, some questions—

is that a problem? Do you want me to stop talking?

No, no, that's perfect. I mean, I mean, I want— as I told you, it's just like a plan.

So, okay, okay.

But I mean, I mean, whatever. It's just, just that I know the format of YouTube. If you, if you do it more than 1 hour and 1 hour It's pretty long to look something, you know, because sometimes, even if I, yeah, I feel like you're very interesting because I, I, I want to know where you're coming from and what, what is your future. People are, you know, this is the information. This society is about like fast information. They jump from an information to another.

Yes.

You know what I think it is? We got so, we were hit by information all the time.

And that's horrible. So we can go deep inside of it.

If we went deep inside everything that was offered to us.

People give up.

Yeah, so we, we've developed this filter. We have to develop a filter.

Yeah, but that's horrible because if, if it was me, I would— I don't need this, to be honest. But if I, if I have to, I want to get some special subjects, you know.

Throw it away and you can ask me all kinds of sexy, saucy questions.

And so how many times you fuck a day? No, that's not a question. You don't need to joke it. Um, do you, do you think, uh, the bonsai is discipline like martial arts, calligraphy, or even shot drink?

Say that again in English. Do I think what?

Do you think that maybe translation is shit? Do you think that bonsai is discipline like martial arts, calligraphy, or even shot drink? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, um, I think the thing with apprentices, I have people who want to come along, they're not paid, they work incredible amount of hours in my garden. And you see, Toby, my most recent apprentice, is such a good example. And he comes into the garden, he thinks it's all going to be sexy. You know, oh, Big Tree, not really.

The German guy?

Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, young Toby.

Oh, young Toby.

Yeah, yeah, but he's young and he's what we call a whippersnapper, so everything has to go—

Yeah, fast. Yeah.

It's not all, it's not all quick sexy stuff.

That's your job to say to him, calm down. Yeah, you know, bonsai is about patience.

And to his credit, and to Syed, and to Sean, I think they're bonsai artists in their own right now. And what they have learned is the discipline, the discipline of waiting, the discipline of standing there putting wire on for 6 hours. And that is hard.

Yeah, because they do 1,000 things at the same time. Do the phone, do the bonsai. speak to their girlfriend, they tell them, you do bonsai, you should switch off your phone.

Put some music on, you know.

The music, it's okay.

I like to work with music.

But, uh, but there's a thousand of things here.

And you start at the bottom and you go to the top.

Exactly.

And it's a killer, and it's a killer mentally, constantly, until you get to a point where your hands turning that branch and you kind of start switching off and it's a little like painting a wall where you kind of know what your hands are doing but you go off into another space thinking about the world, thinking about life and it's actually like, I love it, but you need to look, discipline yourself to get into that zone.

Focus on your task.

And it's, I know Toby was shocked at how much wire needs to go on, repetitive wire on, Wire on.

Yeah, of course.

If you want a good tree, then you need to get that sort of detail in the early years.

And how to put the wire properly to each branch.

Well, yeah, and then get it properly. Um, and it's hard. I work outside. I work outside in the winter. I've got a little heater, but if it's -5, I'm outside working. And this is what I I expect from my apprentices. It's not just the sexy sunny days in the garden. It's January, it's foggy, it's 1 or 2 degrees, and you stand there and you put the wire on.

That's how it is, discipline.

Yeah, it is.

You have to focus.

And I see people who want good trees who aren't ready to apply that wire, or just can't. They just can't apply themselves like that. And unfortunately, the trees will always be a lower standard.

So do you tell them sometimes to do it again, do it again?

No.

Um, like the example, just you have, you have a student is making like shit wire. That's something you can do nothing with.

It has to come off, but I wouldn't let someone do that.

You have to take it out and to do it again.

I think people would be embarrassed to do that in front of me. Um, And what I do at workshops, if people struggle putting wire on because they need to be taught, I have apprentices while I'm styling trees. I have apprentices that will sit with them and go through how to get the wire on. You know, it's just making sure that you've got your wiring hand turning and your left hand is doing all the—

Once you got it, you know, it's just like bicycle.

Yeah.

That's why you have to insist to your student to say, It's boring, but the day you will have it, you will not think about it.

And at the end of the day, you're heading towards a goal, aren't you?

And you have a drink with them at the end of the day?

No, not during the center. The workshops, so people come, will come from all over the UK. They got long drives afterwards. I'll get home.

No, but I speak about the students that are around you.

We will at a show and things like that, but we are— Sean lives in the same small town as me. Toby does a good distance to get to me. He does every Thursday. Syed comes from East London, so he's an hour and a half drive.

Okay.

These are committed guys, and they will be here for the show this weekend because—

Because I'm money.

I'll let them sell a few. No, they don't get paid.

No, but I mean, you as a bonsai— as a bonsai professional, you need to make money. We need money. We all need— that's the problem with bonsai. And I would like to—

smoothing it out, you know how you get loads of work repotting time and loads of work at this time and loads of work at this time, then there's dead months. July, August, for instance, they're just dead. Um, and I've been professional now for— I forgot what, I guess 15 years, living off bonsai for 15 years. Um, and it's comfortable, but obviously I'm not a millionaire. No, and I will have to— I would have to carry on the rest of my life because I have no pension. I've given it up because I want to do bonsai.

Okay, um, next question because you speak too much.

Right, I'm not talking to Lauren now. So, I know, I hate— no, no, no, no, we're gonna stop. I'm playing the Joker. I'm playing the joke.

But you don't know the question.

Put it down, put it down. I hear a story that with an English accent you don't like to be called Laurent.

Because what is it?

I'm going to start calling you Lawrence. That's how you would say your name properly in English.

Yeah, because you cannot— Laurent, you can't, you can't pronounce the R. No, no.

So this is a story that's going around the hall today, is you want to change your name to Lo or something.

Yeah, but Lo, you know what's coming? My nickname. It's because when I was in bonsai, when I was like 27, after I've been awarded— no, it was like 30, 33— after I've been awarded by Kimura the Premier of the Year.

Wow.

And, uh, then people start to say, yeah, you have a big head and blah blah, you're arrogant. Because every time you're successful when you're working hard, people start to say you think you're sick. And then I, that's almost the moment I started to do the cosmic style, not the Burton style at that time, become the cosmic style. And people, people start to say, call me Outlaw. So the contraction was Lo, Lo, Laurent. So, uh, so, and when I'm traveling everywhere, everywhere in the world, everybody call me Lauren, but it's an English name, right? But Lauren is French.

Uh, Lawrence. Oh, uh, Lauren is a, a, a girl's name.

Yes, girl's name, exactly. So every time I say to people, just call me Law. Everybody can pronounce that, Law, L-A-W, or L-O, whatever you, you, you want to write it. Law, everybody can remember. And it's okay to me because Law is male. So, and I don't want to be called Lawman because I, I feel like— How old are you?

You look the same age as me because I'm quite old. You look really old. You're in your 50s, aren't you?

But you look young.

I'm 54.

I'm 52.

Yeah, so it's this, isn't it?

No, no, no, no, no, no, I don't.

Next question. I, I, no, no, no, next.

I jumped that one. Okay, okay, okay.

Is that white or is that silver?

Yeah, it's white. So okay, I jumped that one. Okay, you're lucky it was a hard one. What is, what is the bad memory— which is the best memory, sorry, you had in your bonsai journey?

Um, there are loads of—

Do you not have any special one?

No, actually, um, and it kind of sounds big-headed, but when I was on Gardeners' World on the BBC and they featured me on— yeah, on the BBC And Gardeners' World was a program that I grew up with. It was always on, on a Friday afternoon— sorry, Friday evening. My parents watched it and I watched it. And then when I came back into gardening, I watched it really heavily. And Gardeners' World is really top gardening stuff, you know, Chelsea Flower Show, very, very beautiful gardens. are featured, it's only top quality. So when they contacted me to say that they wanted to film in the garden, it was just like, wow. And because I work from a garden that my mum started, and my mum's still alive, she was just like, for her that was special.

Okay.

And when we had the BBC come down and we had the film crew, She's 87 now.

So you weren't proud for yourself but for your mother?

For both, for both of us. It was, it was one of those full circle things, you know. I grew up with this program and then suddenly I'm on this program, you know, 4 million people watch it on the, on the night, and, and your parents see their son got it. She was so proud. That was probably the best.

Did she cry?

No. Oh my God, I would have slapped her.

No, you would not. Great. And what is the worst memory you have in the Bota journey?

I got very, very irritated when and I think this is what you were talking about when a little while ago, when people's head come up above the parapet, you know, you have a castle and you have the parapets along the top and your head just starts to come up and there's some people who feel very threatened by that and instead of just doing their own work and improving their own work, What they try to do is to hammer you back down. And I found this—

Put you down.

Yeah, bring you back down. I don't get any of this now for probably a decade, but there was a period where people were trying to knock me down. And in some ways I enjoyed that. I was irritating them, I'll be honest with you.

Did you ever feel a desire of revenge or kind of sense?

This is on camera, this is on camera.

So this is his last chance, now we have to install the cameras.

No.

So how do you explain that there are so few women in the world of bonsai? That's very—

I'm very, very pleased to see some genuinely very, very good artists. So, we've got Kaz.

So, how can you quote one name?

One, one, Maria Hadžić is absolutely brilliant in Croatia.

Who?

Maria Hadžić.

Yeah, the naturalistic style from Waterfall. Yeah, I agree with that.

The material she gets, also the way she styles it, the way she—

And she's, she's a kind girl also. Yeah, humble, very cool.

No, I have a lot of time for her.

I don't like her hair.

I liked her hair, but I don't like it so much. Sorry, Marie. I really—

But really, change your hair.

No, she's fantastic.

I'm just kidding.

But over here we have Caroline, who's always known as Kaz Bonsai, and she's worked up in, um, a nursery on the Scottish-English border for years and has worked with so many artists, but quietly for sort of, you know, 20 years, assisting at workshops with some really big names.

Yeah.

And the past couple of years, she's come out as a professional and she's demonstrating this weekend at Telford and Her work is absolutely fantastic but she's there because she has this discipline, she is a really good artist. I think there's been a few people—

That are constant.

There's been a few people, I don't know, men do have this attitude towards women.

Sorry, I cut you because I have to check the battery. It's okay. Sorry. Yeah, but I agree with Mariac. I can't pronounce her name because how do you say Maria? Maria. Yeah, but Maria, it's okay. But I Czech. Okay. Because Czech and Bulgaria and Czech. Some Germans, it's very hard to pronounce the name.

Oh, you see, right?

Okay. Like you know Bjorn, Bjorn Holm, Bjorn. Everybody understand? Then try to pronounce his family name. It's just impossible.

Bornholm.

Yeah.

How do you say Bornholm? You sure it's the right way to say it?

Uh, no. I'm British. The British just say words. Words come out.

It's Saxon, so because he's a Viking, so. It's more easy for us, but for French people, it's nearly impossible. Just like to say Laurent, you know. So that's great. We have a good interview. It's very interesting. Cheers. I drink more than you. I was expecting the opposite.

I've not eaten for hours. I know I had a meal after. You've been eating. Look at that.

I'm a fat guy. Yeah, actually, I have to do sport. Um, question. That's very interesting questions. Do you feel a form of energy, of energy exchange between you and your trees while you are working with them? That's a question we never hear about that because people will think that we are like, I don't know, like crazy people.

I'm very strictly agnostic.

Me too, but do you feel something special?

No, but there has to be because your interaction with the tree is so intense when you're working all of its sap.

So you don't feel it?

I feel something and I don't know, I don't know. No, I feel because that's my creative bit, that's my bit which is I love, whether that's And it's a combination of both of us, both me and the tree. I don't know, but you do become— you develop a relationship with something that you alter that much.

I believe that sometimes I'm very sad or I'm, you know, angry, or I just focus. I just take a tree, I put it into my workshop, and I just do it. And after, I just like— I feel like it gives me something. Just let— maybe, maybe it's something I created in my mind, I don't know.

But after that creative process, you know, all my troubles just disappeared.

Just like his hair is growing, it doesn't give me no any reproach.

You see, I've spoken about Toby, um, already in this interview. He comes down every Thursday and he's a psychologist, very clever lad, um, And we talk about these things in the interactions.

Interactions, there's no doubt. There is an interaction. It's all about bonsai. You work on your tree, he works on you. It's like 50/50. If you don't understand that, you can't do bonsai, right? Because you're going to kill your tree or your tree is going to kill you.

You have to understand them whether— I don't know. I don't know. I don't.

But you don't—

yeah, wait. Okay. I don't like that question. Questions I'm not sure about, I've not thought about.

Yeah, okay. Uh, so very interesting questions. Do you necessarily have to be insane in choosing to do bonsai?

No, no, you have to be willing to take risks. You're working on things that can be very valuable. You can lose. You can't be precise. I know I had a client who was a fantastic architect in Hong Kong and he didn't build skyscrapers, he went down into the granite and the sandstone and stuff like that. You tell me. It was kind of like skyscrapers that went down 10, 15 floors and he was the architect for them and he was saying, this is precision stuff, you're going through hard granite, sandstone, all the rest of it. And you know what, he was terrible at bonsai because everything had to be precise. He couldn't get his head round me saying to him, you might get a bud there, or hopefully you may even get a bud here, but I can't guarantee it. And it was that lack of control and that lack of precision he couldn't handle.

Yeah, because that is life inside. Concrete, it's dead, right? So you can control everything, but life, you can't control it.

We are guiding our trees, but they are in charge.

We guide them, and if they don't want to control them at the same time, we tell them where to go.

And yeah, but all trees have got an element of fuck you, I'm gonna do what—

yeah, sometimes they lose some branches, but you have to accept that. Yeah, but we are controlling most of the elements. We control the soil, we control the growth. If, if you wanna make, you know, you wanna make a big one, you put in, in the ground.

You are not in control. You are not actually.

No, not 100%, but we control 50% of everything. We decide if it's a mamey, we decide if it's a choy, we decide if it's gonna be a tree.

If it decides to die, it will die. If it wants to survive, it'll survive.

I don't believe in that.

Every time I lost a tree, I'm English. I'm right.

I know. No, no, no. But it's, that's very interesting conversation. Because I had this conversation thousand times before. I was thinking, oh, it's because of the weather, it's because of the mushrooms.

No, no, no.

But now I know every anything happened to my tree, it's my fault. I have done something wrong.

Ah, that's that's something different.

If something goes wrong with a tree, it's not because it does decide to die. It's because I'm actually done something wrong. I'm actually yeah, absolutely. I'm one hundred percent responsible of my tree. If I dig a tree in the mountain, if I say 50% are rooting, 50% are dying, first of all, I didn't have to dig them in the mountain. First thing, they didn't ask me nothing. They are here for 500 years, you know. So, and anything happened in my bonsai, it's 100% my fault. I can't say just, oh, it's just because the weather was shit, or, or because I didn't have a greenhouse.

The angle, the angle I'm looking at it is, is particularly when people first come into bonsai and they have a tree that's sick and they know something's wrong, and they feel— sometimes they feel that if they keep feeding it or keep spraying it with insecticide or keep doing this, they need to keep doing something to fix it. And what they're not really understanding is, no, you do your setup, you make sure that you Discover what's wrong, you sort it out, then you sit back and you leave that tree, and the tree will control, and it is the best judge of what it needs to recover. You just provide exactly the right conditions. Um, you know, you know, it's the same as if you keep koi. You know, I've come across so many people who keep koi.

Ridiculously expensive. Ridiculously expensive.

Trees— sorry, objects. But you look after the water because you can't really do that much about the fish. The fish will look after themselves. You control the water.

You know what, something very— I never spoke about that. That's very interesting and something I learned in Taiwan. I said it very happened very rarely now because my knowledge, it's pretty good, but happens sometimes. that one of my tree decline. This, I know this, all my knowledge is I'm— the substrate is good, fertilizer, everything is good, but it doesn't die, but it decline. It's not—

Yeah. Yeah.

You know, the leaves are not the same. So I feel that is not— and Tyrone has taught me something that everybody should apply. If you don't, if you believe everything you've done is good and the tree still decline, the best things to do is to put him on the ground. And it happened to me so many times that the trees was declining on the shelves. I put him on the ground, I, I'd water him one day on 2, I stopped fertilizing, and just being in contact with the earth, it started growing back. And this is something I can't explain. I cannot explain what happened.

I think—

But it's really like it make him healthy again.

Yeah, I think it's very weird.

It's very weird.

I always think You know, take that tree out of the real confines of the bonsai pot, however well developed the root ball is. And I, I love using pond baskets. Yeah, that's the best. Yeah, plenty of aeration going around, and put it on the ground. And if the roots want to go into the ground, they can. Just let them run and reinvigorate that tree. But there's so many things that, um, Even after 30 years, I'm learning all the time.

Yeah, you will speak.

You will speak to Dr. Karen tomorrow, ProBio, and the woman is absolutely amazing. She comes to plants from microbiology at very, very high. She used to work in Strasbourg for the EU and things like that. She works on a molecular level and. The fact that plants are some parts of fungal and bacterial exchanges. We are some parts of fungal bacterial exchanges.

We are full of bacteria. Our body is full of bacteria.

This is how we— our bodies develop, and she's just touching on some of the things. It's a fantastic bottle of wine.

We have a second one, but I guess this one— I didn't see it's a vegan one. I get fat when I bought it. I didn't see this.

I've got to eat some food before I drink anything else.

Yeah, see this? Vegan. It's probably big shit.

I don't understand what you mean.

Because vegan is like they don't use sulfur, so they don't do it the— you know, this is the new word, this is biologic wine. But most part of the time when you drink biologic wine is ugly, believe me.

The taste or the—

It's like very— it's like that's what the, the Romans were drinking, you know. It's like, yeah, oh yeah, very tasty and very hard. I don't know, maybe it's a good one, but it's very—

they don't have wines now.

This one is good, right?

For French wine, I mean, if you could know, if you get the, the classic So, uh, we get a classic California wine.

I check on Google. William the Conqueror doesn't exist. Guillaume the Conqueror, and he's speaking English. So we never tried.

I want this in the video because you'll see what he's like as he gets abusive.

It's a freaking red tunic, you know. So, uh, so easy. What is your favorite alcohol? French wine. Do you have a favorite tree essence, and if so, why? That's a good question. Do I have a favorite essence of tree? What is your species?

Yeah. Now I'll ask you that as well. As a bonsai artist, you're working on trees all the time. It changes. I go through periods of really—

I still have one. I have— I mean, as a bonsai artist, I love everything. Yeah, but—

and I work on it.

I have a special one, especially with my style. I have one species that I really love, but—

Which is?

Helm. Chinese Helm.

Now I've got—

Flexible, small leaves. Do the scars, recover.

So, so quick. And then—

So quick.

But the best thing is when you then create the scars and you're getting popping bugs.

Never sick, never have insects. Don't care, don't care about nothing. Don't care about the cold, don't care about the heat.

No, no. Um, I mean, my problem with elms is they do need to come out of their bonsai pots and have a little bit of root run.

Yeah, you have to repot them every 3 years.

Every 2, 3 years, yeah. Otherwise they get old.

Except if they are old, because like every tree, when they get old, they don't need that much. I have elms that are 15 years old now. I repot them every 5 years, 6 years, because more they are getting old, more, more Less they need to be repotted.

And that's my attitude with deciduous trees. I mean, with hawthorn, I've gone 15 years.

Oh, with all trees, the more they're getting old, the less you need to repot them.

But elms seem to weaken if you don't allow them some root run. You know, it's a little like acers. Even my refined mature acers, I give them something new every 2 or 3 years. Anyway, my favorite species changes all the time.

So you don't have one? Because that's your answer.

No, because you're always learning. But my real— the best species in the world, I have better than them. Throw away your round.

So you don't have one? So you—

no, no, no, no, no, no. Picea. Don't get spruce. Spruce are just like— because I now understand them, and you repot them in mid-July When they finish growing, you take them out. You can bare root them. You can do whatever you want, and the roots just go. Oh, I love this and grow, and you wouldn't expect it. But that was one of the problems with spruce.

But I do that with the Scott pine.

Yeah, I do as well. This is what I'm trying to teach.

I discovered that like six or seven years ago because one pot was broken, and then I never seen roots like this. Yeah, and then I said. But I have to do it. But everybody tell you spring, hot, right? And even when I dig now, I dig middle of July.

Yeah, yeah.

And people tell me, you're crazy, it's spring.

Well, this is something I've been educating people in the UK about, is, is go for your— these trees have evolved to not transpire particularly.

Yeah.

Um, but that's spruce I absolutely love. I've got some ezo, but I've got some Norway spruce and Colorado spruce. And when they're happy, Jesus, they are so sexy. Um, I've got an article in Bonsai Focus coming out in a few weeks' time addressing how to style them because they can be difficult to style. And when I used to go to Sweden to see Thor and we'd look at these spruce, it just went— so you cut off all the lower branches Remove them, remove them so the rest could just go like this.

While the ball is a good example for that.

I'm literally, I'm gonna throw away your ace palmate or your own spruce.

Yeah, but it's hard to manage with the foliage. But if you let him free, it's a good tree. But I like to handling handling my trees all the time. I like to. Why all the time?

You you don't know what you're doing.

I know, I know, that's my problem.

I think we— this is a good bottle of wine.

Um, if I gave you $10 million right now, what would you change in your life?

I'd buy a nursery. No, I wouldn't buy a nursery, I would buy a A plot of land that gave me a bigger garden and display area, and I would have some trees for sale.

Museum?

What does museum mean?

I mean, a part that you train by yourself and you can expose your trees and develop trees.

To land, and Bonzo knows.

That's a good answer. I would probably have done the same.

Yeah, I've seen you on Facebook, but it is exactly the same. You need a location. You know, I'm okay at the moment.

You need the ten million dollar. Then you will have all the location you want.

Can we split it? If seriously five million, I'll be okay.

Ten million, ten million. You go to every land, you say to this guy, how much is your land? 2 million? I give you 3. You know, money can buy everything. That's the problem. So, who is the friendliest bonsai master you have met in the bonsai world? And you can't say me.

Now, we've had some time together, haven't we?

No, no, you cannot say me.

But he wasn't—

That's the question. You cannot say me.

You've been friendly, but it's not gone overboard, you know, got sexual. Um, of course not. There are so many— the vast majority of people involved.

I mean, the one in particular that you have good memories with and then you kept drunk together, you know, having parties.

Fuck me, I've got drunk more times.

Not necessarily Bonsai Master, but someone you met in a— it could be a Bonsai Master.

There are so many good people I mean Thorhol Villa in Sweden. We have got we sat out in his brand Thorhol Villa.

Yes, very kind.

Yes, we sat out in his brand. They got very drunk through the nights, and his cabin is magic, right?

Have you seen his cabin in Sweden?

He's shown he's shown me some. He's got his small cabin with the sauna, but we've been up in the mountains, and we've gone up and seen old. The oldest tree in the world, uh, it is the spruce, and they're gonna kill me because I can't remember the name of it.

I can't help you.

There are so many cool people in bonsai that I have met, including yourself, you know. Um, and, and people are passionate about bonsai, by and large, are actually really— they come from all, all sections of society. And there's so many artists or artistic types and you can't fail to just really appreciate being around them. And I think this is the thing that some bonsai masters and artists just don't realize is, yeah, you're good at bonsai but all of these people that are coming to you and talking to you are also extremely talented Possibly in other fields.

It could be.

But they enjoy the bonsai and they're looking to you not to be put down, not to be treated second-rate, like you're better than them. They have those—

I've never done that. I never put people down.

I— no, no, no, but I think that— well, that's, that's something that's important. I get so many people I have come into my workshops and you chat to and they're just like incredible people and they're so talented, but they also do bonsai. And the respect that you should— I think we should give them coming into our spheres and encourage them. And sometimes there is a little bit of the bonsai mastery is golden.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but that's the image.

That's not That I don't do bonsai for that anyway. So I do bonsai for—

check the video—

free tattoos and—

Okay, that's perfect. That's a good interview. I didn't expect that. That's cool. I think I'm gonna jump a lot of questions because you—

Come on, you've got loads and loads here.

Uh, so, oh no, only, only 6 questions more. That's cool.

Then we're going for a cigarette.

Um, so the questions: what is 6 afraid of 7?

Six afraid of seven. Six afraid of seven. I don't understand.

I don't even understand my question. That's no, that was I just before, just after I write nonsense question. Oh, okay. This kind of private jokes. Now you got it here. What does six?

You're feeling me.

You're crazy. I'm crazy. It's on camera.

He's feeling this wine.

So you see, that's what I expected. We arrive to the end, we get drunk. So now that's the interesting part, you know. That was my plan, you know. For now it's like we talk about seriously, but now who else?

So now, now who else are you planning on getting drunk? You're trying to get Marrow tomorrow.

Yeah, but trust me, trust me, I'm gonna force him. I know, I know him. He will say no, blah blah blah. And I don't know if he's coming with his wife or not.

Yeah, he's here with his wife.

Yeah. So first of all, I have to convince him that it's just me and interview. Because if his wife is there, he will not give the same answers, right?

Right. We'll find something to do. We'll find something to do downstairs.

Okay. So interesting question.

Challenge, challenge team hour.

So we're gonna get this also. I can't remember this past 2 minutes. We're gonna get this. We don't have troubles. I have an extra balls in the bonsai. Okay, don't don't you think there is too much conflicting information in modern bonsai compared to the little information we had in old time?

Fucking hell!

Because when we were younger, right? You are fifty-four and fifty-two. We didn't didn't have information. We have to to scratch everywhere to get some information now. And now today there is Billions of fake information, right?

One of the biggest, biggest problems is we have in this country pioneers of bonsai who were pushing and pushing and discovering things through the '60s, '70s, and the '80s, and they were realizing, no, you can't put a tree just into peat. Would put— if you put some great some grit in there, that's better. And you know, as we go on in the West, in the UK and Europe, we keep learning, keep learning. The problem is those pioneer artists wrote books that were published that keep getting republished by the publishing houses. It's not the artist's fault.

Oh, and they're Wrong information, and they write wrong information.

But is information from thirty years ago?

And the book is not the worst. The worst is social media.

Yeah. Well, no, this is the first thing that is so many people on social media who've just bought a book, one side book that says new 2023, 2024, that was actually written thirty years ago.

And they don't make a verification, and they don't.

So they could then go online and say, ah, such.

Yeah.

You can put Pete and Grit and that's sufficient. So we have that regurgitation of old information all the time. Then we have steps of people learning. What I know now might be different than what I knew 20 years ago. I update myself all the time, but it doesn't necessarily mean that other people update themselves all the time. And there are a lot of people who reach a level in bonsai that they're happy with, and that's great, and they enjoy the bonsai, they go to the clubs, but they're still there, you're still there, and they're not learning, they're not moving forward. Unfortunately, they're still teaching new people the way they used to do things.

I believe that's because people don't test with their trees, Because if you have one information, some information are good, some information are bad, right? You can't— maybe in my books you can find some information I give to you that are wrong, because I can do mistake, right? Oh, but, but the thing is that at all time, I believe, even when I was reading John Naka, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a lot of people angry. But now I can contest Naka. I mean, his books are magic because they teach me how to do bonsai, but now I have some information that are wrong. And I know they are wrong because I took my trees, I grow them, and I have the answer now, you know.

I'm sorry, John Naka was an absolute fucking pioneer. He did so much.

Big respect, big respect to him. That's— I wrote it in my book.

Respect that.

Yeah, of course, 100%. But I can contest some things.

With modern bonsai, the amount of hassle I've had because of his famous tree on top of a tree phrase for building the crown, and that then was the understanding for everyone. But I still have people who build a tree on top of a tree, unfortunately, they keep doing it every year and the tree gets taller and taller.

And then they get the top of the top of the top of the top.

This is John writing books going back years and years and years, And some— there's still information there that you can take away and is really— you can learn. Unfortunately, we've all progressed, and if John was still alive and was still doing bonsai, he would be up with us, you understand? But those books were written. He can't change the books that he wrote 25, 30 years ago.

Yeah, of course. And I'm pretty sure that if he was there, if I was talking with him and say, you wrote this, Because it was an experiment issue. He will probably say, yeah, you're right, because this is wrong. Even if you take one of my books and you tell me you've wrote this and it's wrong, and if I have evolved by myself and I say, yeah, it's bullshit, I will correct it in the next edition.

We all have to keep evolving, otherwise we stand still. And the people who stand still tend to be the ones who are popping on people coming up. And I think that's why, come really full circle, as an artist, you need to have that buzz to create but you also then need to question yourself.

Exactly.

If you don't question yourself, you stay at the same level, you never improve, you just do the same thing and I meet people who've Been practicing bonsai for thirty or forty years, but actually they've been doing year three or four over and over, and they have never got better.

That's the problem of dogma. I read this. I tell you an anecdote. It's very interesting.

When I started only if you're French.

Yeah, I can speak French if you want. Mais je pense que tu vas rien comprendre. So when I was 30, I started, uh, to teach people like around 28, 27, something like, something like that. And when I started, uh, because people told me, what is the best book to buy when you, when you, when, when you start bonsai? And at my time, at my time, at that time, this was like in 1999 or 1998. I said to people, Naka is the best. Naka 1, Naka 2. Because at that time there was nothing. That's it.

But that's 25 years ago.

Yeah, but believe me, you remember, you remember his sketches, his drawings?

Beautiful.

Yeah, beautiful. But at the same time, flats. So the, the first people bring trees, they bring me trees with the branch on the side, right side, left side, no back, no front.

I, I believe it was like a paper.

So the tree on the front is not that bad. First branch, second branch, they apply the sketch, and then you put the Amazing! And people tell me, but that's what I read in the books. Yeah, but that's a sketch.

I think unfortunately also there is many good artists who produce very good work with very, very healthy trees, but they do things differently to each other. There are a number of ways to skin a cat.

Mm-hmm.

And that can be a dilemma as well for people, you know, maybe they decide that this type— I think people after a while, they think, oh, Harry does this sort of tree, this sort of feel, it's a bit natural and I'm gonna follow what he's saying and then there's this artist and this artist and that's the route that I want to take.

Um, but I believe it's just the tendencies, because to me, if I'm honest, if I look at your trees, your tendencies is more close than waterfall, than Japanese dogma, right? Yeah, I don't know if you agree with that, but you, you try to make the trees look like trees.

Oh yeah, yeah. I want to, and I will do one day, is literally write a bonsai design book, but it's more about art than bonsai. When we— I talked earlier about painting a picture, but with brush— the brush strokes are branches and producing rhythms. Particularly, I'm talking about Deciduous trees really. The best bonsai will have one or two rhythms and when you look at them, and it's important that you don't know about bonsai, you just look at this as a work of art. You see the rhythm out of the chaos of branches, absolute chaos. You might see that there's a rhythm of branches like this and a rhythm of branches like this. And seeing patterns and rhythm out of natural chaos hits everyone. You see, I'm telling you my trade secrets.

But maybe it's going to be your volume 3.

I have a volume 3 written. I have—

You've written 2 volumes, right?

Yeah.

Just like me. So maybe it's—

No, no, no, no, no, I've got 3. I've got 3.

Oh, you got volume 2?

I've got another 2.

Oh, volume 4?

3 and 4.

But you wrote volume 1 and 2 and 3?

There's 1 and 2, and then there's what I call— it's not a beginner's book, I call it a foundations book for all the people who are still doing year 3 and 4 and 5.

So you're writing it again slowly? That's important because it's good advertising for you.

I've got 3 books out. have had them out for years. They've sold thousands and thousands, um, and people seem to really enjoy them. But Brexit has killed trade for the UK and Europe and everywhere. It's just killed things. So they are going to reappear. I get asked all the time for bonsai inspirationers. One hasn't been available for 18 months.

Oh, really?

And they make silly amounts of money.

Yeah.

You know, on eBay and things like that. They will be available, but I'm gonna have to do it online. I have Bonsai Inspirations 3, Bonsai Inspirations 4 written, laid out, and ready for one day. I write a lot. I do go on like this, and I have— have you noticed I've got opinions? I don't have. You said it. You said at the beginning of this interview that I don't listen to him.

I don't have opinions.

It's too dangerous. You said at the beginning of this interview not to take any notes of the video, right? I want to go. This is just a good. All right.

Okay. So what is your fish without eyes? Okay. Doesn't matter. It's another shit question. So for last. Okay, very cool. So for last question and then we'll let you go. So what is your favorite novel? You have one answer.

Fuck me, that's the same as Bonsai. I do, if there's one—

It doesn't have to be with Bonsai, novel.

No, no, no, it's the same as Bonsai.

I go through everything you read, historical, a lot of historical literature.

I absolutely love Stephen King. If there's one person—

so give me, give me one book of Stephen King and one title.

No. All right, you name one species that you like in bonsai.

The Crow. There is so many about Stephen King. There is many. The Crow.

It's like saying, what's your favorite song?

Yeah, but you have to.

No, because you've written it on there. I have to.

Yeah, that's dogma, man. You have to choose.

I haven't written it on a piece of paper. You're telling me.

Give me one. Give me one level. The totalitarian system. Give the UME France. Give me— give them one book you read that changed your life. One, only one. I have a thousand also, but I can give you one right now.

Um, none. I'm not gonna name you one. I refuse it.

But Stephen King, he says already, but choosing—

I do love Stephen King.

So he likes freaky, freaky books. Uh, favorite movie? No, it's over. You used it already. Favorite movie.

I use them for you. Favorite movie.

One.

I'd like some movies. Ah, do you know Saving Private Ryan is a favorite?

Sorry?

Saving Private Ryan.

Okay. Who's done that? Rip it, rip it. Maybe I don't understand the title. Rip it, rip it in.

Saving, saving private, private Ryan.

Ryan, right.

Your street cred is just jumped out the window because I have an excuse.

Maybe in France sometimes we change the title in French and we don't recognize the title. So Saving Private Ryan, it's about war, it's about war in Vietnam or in Second World War? No, nothing to do with that. So, so I don't know. Yeah, but if you, if you're, if you're English, you understand him.

No, it's all about— oh my God, fuck's sake— it's all about invasions on Normandy beaches, running onto the Normandy beaches. And you need to watch it. You need to educate yourself. Like, no, you're a Frenchman.

No, but I just don't understand the title.

Spielberg was behind it and It's like the longest day. Fucking watch it. Yeah. And you'll go, shit, that is the best opening sequence I've ever seen. Coming onto the Normandy beaches and the first few weeks of—

No, you say, when you say Norway, it's Normandy.

Normandy.

Yeah, okay, but the way you talk. Okay, of course I've seen it properly.

I say it right properly.

No, you don't.

You don't say it properly.

You do everything in inverted French, you know. That's ugly, you know. English people can't speak any word of French, and their language is coming from French language.

You know, the scariest thing is you sound Canadian.

I didn't. I, I, I don't. Sorry. So it's very, very close. That's 3 questions. So your favorite country? France. Easy. Favorite actress?

My favorite?

And I'm, I'm not speaking about her intellectual abilities.

I don't care.

You don't have to speak. You don't have to speak. I don't care. You don't care. Finally, last one. If you could be a superhero, which one would you be?

That's a silly question. You've had some really good questions.

That's my stupid question to the end.

Oh, you've had some great questions, but that one—

which superhero you want to be? So thank you very much for the interview.

It's been an absolute pleasure, Lauren, and good to see you.

So I hope you enjoyed it, and see you in the next interview. Normally it's going to be a more Stemberger, and, uh, I hope you enjoyed it. And, uh, if you have any suggestion for any bonsai master you want to see, uh, if you want to see Maya Carrie or Jessica and drink some red wine and drink some red wine. Red wine is free, right?

Yeah, the red wine's free. Yeah.

Kiss kiss bye bye.

So hard to fight from afar. A hair-gray charcoal takes a drag from her tongue. I kissed her a smile, but her blood-red shut eyes. Said the sun never shines on closed doors. It's been 8 long years since I saw her. The woman whose labor since the day I was born, whose wrinkles now face to that cold, dark, damp place where the sun never shines. And close those, she said, the sun never shines. The sun never shines on closed doors. I open to find only hurricanes blow. Take me away to the green fields of Maine. 'Cause the sun never shines. Oh, it was those. Death comes like a thief in the night. To steal while you sleep, the salt's flicker and light. Well, maybe it's then she said, I'll see you 'Cause the sun never shines on closed doors. I said the sun never shines on closed doors. I yelp in to find that only hurricanes blow.