E17: Diane Hamilton Cracks the Curiosity Code

Thanks for joining us today on Street Smarts with Harvey McKay, where the biggest room in the world is the room for improvement. And now here's your host, managing partner and co founder of harveymckayacademy.com, cliff Jones.

Hello everybody, Cliff Jones, co founder, managing partner of Harvey McKay Academy. And today with me today, with us today is Dr. Diane Hamilton, very dynamic author, speaker. What we're going to be talking about is Cracking the Curiosity Code, Diane's new book and the Curiosity Code Index. And if you don't know who I am, ladies and gentlemen, I'm Cliff Jones and I am very curious and I can't wait to take you through the work of Diane Hamilton today. If you're new to Street Smarts podcast, give us a little love on itunes. If you don't have a free basic membership at Harvey McKay Academy, go there and get one. You'll get all sorts of cool free stuff. So I want to, Diane, I want to properly introduce you because you have a contagious passion for improving interpersonal communication, which I love. Nationally syndicated radio host, award winning speaker, author, brand new book educator, Dr. Hamilton, thought leader in the fields of leadership, sales, marketing, management, engagement, personality, curiosity, motivation, basically improving relationships in the workplace and performance as a result. So if you're going to hang with us for the next 20 minutes, what we're going to do is walk through Diane's body of work. We're going to leave you with some takeaway value. We're going to run about 20 minutes or so today as we normally do. We go over. That's a. Okay. Because that means you'll be getting some cool stuff. Diane, welcome to Street Smarts with Ari McKay.

Well, thank you. I'm so excited to be here. It's going to be fun.

So we met through Greg Williams, who we just love, one of the hungry fighters of the free world. I just can't say enough about Greg. I'm very grateful. Harvey and I are grateful to have you. Today on the Street Smarts podcast, let's talk a little bit about how you got into your field and what really gets you excited when you wake up and go to work every day.

Well, you know, my field is hard to even explain what I'm in because I'm in several things. I am an educator, as you said. You know, I teach business, but my field is kind of behavioral areas of business. So I kind of got into that when I wrote my doctoral dissertation on emotional intelligence. I mean, I'd already had my Master's and my PhD in business. Management with a focus on organizational management, leadership. But the behaviors really came into play when I started to study emotional intelligence to much more depth. I think that I just fell into emotional intelligence at the time, and it got me interested in personality assessments. I became certified to give the EQI and MBTI and a whole bunch of other letters of assessments. And I thought it was just really fascinating to see what makes people tick. And as I started to teach, I've taught, I say, over more than a thousand, but it's closer to 2,000, probably, courses in business. I started to see how some of my students think, and I compared that to all these leaders, these billionaires and top executives who I have on my show and. And how they would be just so curious, and they wanted to learn everything about everything. And then my students kind of just wanted me to sometimes give them a fish instead of teaching them to fish. And I don't think they were lazy. They just had been always given things or, you know, not really asked to push themselves sometimes. And I wanted them to be more curious. And so as I start with the show, I was writing a book on curiosity, and I thought, no, I don't just want to write a book on curiosity. I want to fix this problem somehow. I want to develop an assessment that tells you what's holding people back from being curious. And so that's what led to me writing the curiosity Code index, which goes along with the book.

Well, you have quite the education to pedigree, you know, the who's who in the free world. You're spanning around the globe, speaking and teaching. Let's talk a little bit about the connection, if you would, between emotional intelligence and curiosity. There must be some correlation there that you could describe.

Well, you'd think there'd be a lot of research about that, and there's a lot of research on emotional intelligence, and there's a lot of research on curiosity. There's some. The overlaps I'm finding is, you know, with. With curiosity, you have to want to try and put yourself in different such situations. You have to be interested in what other people are interested in. You have to kind of open your mind to some things. And with emotional intelligence, there's a big aspect, you know, interpersonal skills includes a lot of that, but so is empathy. To have empathy, you really have to be able to understand somebody from their own perspective. And I think to build that empathy, you have to ask questions. You have to recognize what other people are dealing with in their own reality is not the same as what you're Dealing with. And so curiosity is a huge spark to a lot of things, not just emotional intelligence. Because once you have curiosity, it sparks motivation and drive to go to the next level, which is that next level is where you get help with engagement, critical thinking, emotional intelligence, leadership, team cooperation, everything you could possibly think of. If you ask a leader what's wrong in the business that they're working with right now, it comes into that level which all of that is impacted by, by drive and motivation, which is impacted by curiosity.

My direct experience, looking back 30 some odd years, many managers, people I've worked for, is as a caring, curious person myself, I noticed that probably on a handful of occasions the people I worked for cared enough to be curious enough about me as a human being. My motivators, what I was, where my core skills were, where they weren't, and they were emotionally aware and engaged with me to empower me to perform in the workplace. So isn't that what your body of work is really suggesting, basically what I've experienced in the real world?

Well, you've been really lucky and fortunate. You've had people who have been that way with you because a lot of people don't have that experience. And that's what I'd like to change. I would like to have people feel like people are their leaders and the people around them are very interested in what they do. And I think a lot of people are interested, but they don't really know how to ask questions. They don't really know if it's appropriate to ask questions. They've been cut down in the past for doing that. They're worried about insubordination if they suggest things, if they show too much interest. Sometimes there's leaders who want you to just follow this path because it's easy. But that status quo thinking is going out. I mean, we were talking before the show, I interviewed the father of artificial intelligence. And we are going to see changes that we have never seen in the past in terms of innovation, the status quo thinking of just letting things just go as smoothly as they always went and without questioning things with just, you know, that's not going to happen anymore. And so that's what I'm trying to get. I think if you've had that great experience of a boss or leader who's really let you explore and they've supported you, that's great. And I think we need that more now than ever with the fact that we need to become more innovative than ever.

Well, from my perspective, is it fair to say that if one is emotionally intelligent, caring and curious. If someone like me isn't going to find and relate well to that immediate supervisor, am I not going to be curious enough and motivated enough to go find someone who I can work for or basically just, you know, get out of the way of a non caring, non curious, low EQ leader? Which to me is exhausting.

It is, you know, some people just don't have the luxury of being able to make those, you know, moves and choices. They have to stay where they are for one reason or another, at least temporarily. And my goal is to open your eyes to other options because you don't really have the golden handcuffs where you have to stay. Sometimes I think some people think they have to stay when they don't have to. But I think, you know, culture comes from the top. And if the head of the company has embraced the culture that you find toxic, that doesn't embrace curiosity, that doesn't support you, it's going to be almost impossible to fix it from, you know, going up. So it is time to think of moving, I believe, if you're in that kind of a culture, if you can.

Well, to that, to your point, I was listening to an NPR interview last night and it was the reporter, basically scientific reporter, reporting that she was at a conference where many scientific men dominated the conference. And in the context of the treatment that she experienced as a woman, one of the few women in the audience among these highly esteemed super smart IQ people who to me in her storytelling had low eq, low curiosity. And basically, isn't that kind of the dynamic you're talking about changing where awareness, curiosity, the caring leader is held in higher esteem these days to impact productivity?

I think, you know, there is a time I agree with that. We saw a lot more of this negative treatment of women, the negative closing down of ideas and all that in past generations, than we do now. I still see a lot of it with women, you know, and I think a lot of us don't even recognize it, that we're not being taken as seriously as we could because they're not necessarily being rude or doing anything that is insulting that you're aware of. In fact, they're very pleasant sometimes. But your ideas just aren't really ever utilized or you're given tasks that are beneath what you're capable of doing. And there's just a lot of things that we could change if we have that sense that what women or men, I don't like to really just look at men or just look at women, I think because it's really hard to stereotype all situations as being. It's almost like millennials are all this or boomers are all that. And it's very. You know, there's been a lot of boomers that have had issues. There's been a lot of men that have issues. It just depends on the group. So I like to deal with behaviors on a case by case, company by company basis. But definitely there's been a lot of issues where in any organization, I mean, people grow. I mean, even Steve Jobs, when he was first at Apple, had demonstrated very low eq. But then when he learned his lesson somewhat and when he had to come back and realize he needed to deal with people in a more productive way, and he grew. And that's the good thing about emotional intelligence, is it can be improved. And I think by asking questions, by doing the things that I'm talking about in my CCI certification training, it's all leading to improving in all those areas that are behaviorally based on.

Well, I want everybody to understand how you are approaching the measures of this through your approach. And thank you for making the distinction. I didn't really mean to single out men as being in that context. My personal experience has been that I do see many women having that empathy, that caring, nurturing nature that I'd like to see more in the men that I do business with. I will say Harvey McKay as a dear friend and mentor of mine, just a hero to many of us in this community. One of the most caring leaders I've ever met. Incredibly curious. Will remember your names. I mean, the stories are countless. So to me, when I talk about being that kind of leader, it would seem pretty logical that people would understand the cost of not being that leader when we know that the number one reason people would leave their job is because of the lack of relationship or rapport with their immediate supervisors. Isn't that a fair.

Their bosses, not their companies. I mean, they really leave because their bosses are giving them a tough time or they don't feel rewarded or appreciated. And yes, I think there's so many great leaders like Harvey and others who really, you know, embody what I'm trying to do by looking at what we can do to develop people to be more like Harvey's of the world, to be more curious, to be more compassionate, to be all these things, whether they're male or female. I think that what I looked at you started to allude to is how I came about this. And what I did was I looked at the factors that hold people back from being curious. And I found that there were four factors, and those are fear, assumptions, technology and environment. And the environmental impact is very strong. And that's. We've touched on some of this. I mean, how your boss treats you, how your teachers, you know, impacted you, how your family impacts you. I mean, there's just. It's. Everybody around you throughout your life has had an impact on whether you feel comfortable and confident and to ask questions or if you think it's appropriate or not. And, you know, I thought it would be very heavily weighted towards fear because we all fear looking stupid, saying the wrong thing, you know, and there. And it is very big area for people. But so our assumptions. There's assumptions are the voice that you have in your head that says, oh, I'm just not going to be interested in this. That's going to take too much time. You know, you've got this dialogue that you're fighting in your mind.

And.

And I think that assumptions are very low, very high, too. It's pretty evenly dispersed across the board in my initial research is fear assumptions. Technology holds people back because it either does it for you or you're intimidated by it. You think it's too much trouble, or you don't see the need for it because it's doing all these things. So there's the technology aspect, and we already discussed the environment. So FATE is the acronym I use to help remember it. And of all these, you know, four factors, that is what we measure with the cci, the Curiosity Code Index. And we're working with consultants and HR professionals to get them certified to go to organizations, to make sure that, you know, everybody can take this assessment. You can take it online now. I mean, it's available. But it's great to go through the training programs that the CCI certified coaches can provide.

Tell everybody how your Curiosity Code Index came to be, what was your motivating factor and how did you pull off that. That feat? Because you probably took a very academic approach to doing so the way.

Yeah, you know, it was. It was very challenging, you know, because I've been certified in so many different assessments, but I'd never tried to create it from scratch, which is a whole different ball game. And of course, I went through all the scientific, you know, you want to try pilot studies, you want to do factor analysis, you want to do all the stuff that. So, you know, no one wants to hear about because it's kind of, you know, techie nonsense stuff, but it's. It's important stuff. Even I don't Want to say it's nonsense because it's really important to do all that. But that's very challenging because you want to find that the questions you ask are giving you the kind of content that you're trying to improve. So it was very challenging. I got interested in writing the assessment about halfway through writing the book because I started to write the book about curiosity. And I thought, well, okay, this is nice, it's important to develop curiosity. But is writing a book enough to actually change anything? And I didn't think that that was enough. I wanted that to be a piece of the puzzle. And that led me to go, okay, so now we know. I wanted to see what's holding people back. I did some research, found out, you know, factors that people assumed were the things that were holding them back, surveyed thousands of people with different questions until I got just the right questions. Found those four factors were really the ones that were what were holding people back.

Okay, so let's talk about fate again. Quick recap. It's fear assumption, technology, environment. You said earlier you can teach people to improve eq, but is it true that one can't really help or teach people improve iq? And would the same not be true for eq?

No, EQ is actually developed. I had Daniel Goleman on my show, who's the main guy in the area of research that everybody probably knows. If they study emotional intelligence, he's done a lot of research in the area of developing eq. You can improve it. They have found that it is something that you can develop. A lot of it is a skill. I mean your interpersonal skills, your intrapersonal skills, stress tolerance, empathy, a lot of things that people just need to have somebody help them recognize that they don't have high levels of it. It's not an all or nothing you don't have. It's not like saying you have no eq. You have levels and everybody can improve the ones that things that you can't really, that don't change very often. And when I was, you know, studying Myers Briggs, for example, it's kind of your preferences for life on Myers Briggs. You're an introvert or an extrovert. It feels comfortable to write with your left hand versus your right, I mean hand or the right hand versus your left hand. That's how you're personality is with the Myers Briggs. If you're comfortable as an extrovert, you're comfortable as an introvert, whatever your personality is. That's not to say you can't be more extroverted if you put effort into it, it just doesn't feel comfortable. But with emotional intelligence, it becomes comfortable because you're growing and expanding and you're really developing as an individual and as a leader.

Let's say someone has fear issues. However, they're churning through 300% of the people they hire. That's not sustainable. You show up, they take the curiosity code index, you get a snapshot, an X ray of that person. How do you help our hungry fighters? Anybody listening to the Street Smarts podcast deal with the fear issues that are holding them back from being a more caring, curious, high EQ leader?

Well, everybody takes the assessment, not just the leader. So all the employees and actually the results that they get should be not shared. This is something we want that to keep as a very private thing. What is shared is in the training. We have two different activities that they go through. They have individual activity where they create an action plan for how they're going to improve their fate areas. Because there's nine sub areas within each of those four main traits. But within the other report that they create, this is something that's shared with leadership. And leaders will get feedback directly from their employees that gives them how to scenarios of what they can do to help employees develop in different areas. Now this feedback will not only help them help their employees, but it'll give them insight as to things that they're not doing that they could be doing as a leader to develop their own issues as far as fear, assumptions, technology and environment. And they could do that report for all the way going up, I mean, all the way to the top. It could be, you know, different levels of management leadership could take this.

How about sharing a story that comes to mind where you had an impact? You know, everybody went through the assessments. People are motivated in the workplace to get better results because in the end that's what your work produces. So is it a recent scenario that you'd like to talk about?

Well, I'm thinking, you know, I've had a few that were very fear related. I could go with one of those I think would probably be the most easy for people to relate to. I think one of the assignments or assessment results that one of the women in one of my courses, she found that she was fearful of being in front of a group at work because in the past everything she'd done had been shut down by leadership or she was always cut off. Her ideas were never accepted. And so coming into this whole training program, you know that leaders have bought into the fact that there's a Problem. There's a cultural issue in the organization. So right off the bat they're going to be more open to letting people speak because they've realized that there are fear issues. There are. You know, they've gone through this training. So as part of her initial report that she created for herself, she created a way to improve her fear level and develop her critical thinking by creating an exercise that she gave to leadership in that second assignment that I was talking about where she suggested they have her look up a certain topic to present at their Friday meetings that they had. And it caused her to develop her critical thinking skills by, you know, analyzing all the different materials. But it was a topic that she was interested in. They let her pick the topic, something that she knew that no one else knew in that meeting that would help everybody else. But she was able to pick what made her comfortable and be in a safe atmosphere where she was able to, to teach this skill to other people that they didn't know. So what that does is it makes her comfortable because she's in control. She's got. She doesn't have an assignment just thrown on her that she doesn't really embrace right off the bat. She becomes more interested in that topic. She has to learn more about it because she goes around and researches all the different journals or wherever she went to go get that. And there's no better way to learn something than to teach it. Right. So she's learned this topic, she's taught everybody, and she's overcome the fear of presenting in front of the group because now it's a safer environment.

I love that correlation between learning to teach and. How did you say that again?

There's no better way to learn something than to teach it.

Yeah. Than to teach it. Yeah. So do you find that teachers are kind of curious and hungry for knowledge to make them better teachers? Is there any evidence for that in your work or no?

Well, you know, I didn't study teachers specifically in my work, but you know, the one thing I've worked since I've taught so many courses and around the professors when I ran the MBA program at Forbes and you know, I've done so many different teaching position, type of research based things. I have found that when you assign somebody a topic to cover and they're going to handle it for any reason, whether they pick it or not, they're going to learn so much more about it because they want to look good or they want to come across well when they teach it. So I think that that was one of the reasons I really enjoyed teaching so many different courses. I didn't always teach the same course. I mean, I have probably taught the same course many, many times, but I've taught multiple different types of courses. And that makes you much more every time you teach something different, no matter how close it is to the time you've taught it before. If I've taught Introduction to Management in one school, it's completely different from Introduction to Management at another school because the curriculum developer saw a different view of it. Right. So I think that anytime, even if you know a topic that you think you know, like I know emotional intelligence as I wrote my dissertation on it, I can always learn something new about it should I want to find a new level. Like today, if you assign me go write a course about emotional intelligence correlation with curiosity, it would be something I didn't study in my dissertation. So I think though, in the business world, in the sales world, you get a lot of salespeople, you know, and I think this is so important because critical thinking and specifically because you're going into offices, you're talking. I was in sales for decades and it was so different because they couldn't look up your product on the Internet and they couldn't find out what you didn't know before you came in. And so now it's super intimidating because you have to go in there and they've already know as much as you do. So you have to find what they wouldn't be able to figure out. You have to go one step ahead, and that's going to take a very curious mind. And I have a lot of people who teach curiosity and sales or they're interested in writing different papers or whatever about curiosity and sales. And it goes together and it's really important that you're able to develop that, that particular skill.

We end up attracting a lot of sales leaders, sales professionals, to Harvey McKay Academy's Hungry Fighter club. I find the best salespeople are. I wouldn't have used the word curious before I met you, but they have an innate ability to ask intelligent questions that help their prospective customers understand their value proposition, which shifts away from price. Do you focus and help a lot of sales organizations in your work, which is a big part of our community?

Oh yeah. And you know, you have to find their pain points. And as a salesperson, if you're just selling at somebody and you don't even know what their, their need is here, you're not. It's just wasting everybody's time. So asking questions is a huge part of sales and it's interesting to see that the dynamic of sales and how it's changed since I've been in it because it was always just me, you know, and now they're teams. You've got, you know, there's a focus on introvert. Selling is actually something that we wouldn't have even considered. Back in the day. You wanted the extrovert of all extroverts, but now on the team, it's a good idea to have somebody who's really good at listening and a lot of the things that introverts embrace. And I think Susan Cain's book Quiet put a lot of focus on that and I think it's a good thing because, see, sales isn't what it used to be. It's not the same high pressure, sign here, I'll never see you again thing. It's more relationship building in this time, I think.

I'm glad you brought up Quiet Susan Cain's book. We talked about it when we first met. One of the best books I've ever read because it helped me understand that there's really not something wrong with me because I didn't learn until I was much older that I am an introvert, meaning I lose energy around people, I gain energy in my quiet zone. Reading, studying, writing, being out in the mountains. So do you find in your work any correlation between introverts extroverts as one or the other being more curious or am I going way out in left field?

Well, the big difference you're going to see is an introvert will wait to ask questions because they might be pondering. They're thinking, if you talk to an introvert, they're listening to what you're saying and they're computing in their head what they want to say before they say what they want to say. When you talk to an extrovert, what they're thinking is coming out their mouth at the same time as they're thinking it. So the introvert won't ask questions as quickly as an extrovert would. And if you cut them off, they may not get a chance to answer the question. So if I'm talking to you and you've got this great question, you're positive pondering of how you're going, formulating it in your head. But I'm talking all over you because I'm an extrovert, those questions aren't going to come out because I'm not going to let you speak.

And there are varying degrees of introverts, extroverts. It's a widely misunderstood dynamic of a personality, much like, I imagine, curiosity as it relates to eq.

Right. You know, I think there's. It's just so hard because you can be more introverted in certain situations than other situations. And I think we talked about it last time I interviewed Ken Fisher of Fisher Investments, and he found Susan Quiet's book very helpful to him because it explained why when he went to parties or whatever, he just, it made him just. It drained him. And there's some. You have to understand a lot of different behaviors when you're dealing with workers in any situation. And I think whether people buy into that, there's great research behind Myers Briggs or not. There is a lot of information out there about introverts and extroverts and when you feel comfortable and when you don't feel comfortable. And I think that this whole research that I'm doing is about opening a dialogue so people feel comfortable and are able to ask questions, pose solutions, and just be their authentic self. Right now, mindfulness is such a huge topic. I. When I had Daniel Goleman on my show, as I said, he was the big name behind emotional intelligence. He's now writing about mindfulness. I had the mother of mindfulness on my show, and she's, you know, we. Dealing with a lot of different things with mindfulness. Ellen Langer is her name, and she's at Harvard. So, you know, we have all these experts on the shows. And what's so wonderful about that is that I get different perspectives of what it is to take in to become more successful so that we have a culture that embraces all the things that make us be more engaged. Another one on my show was Doug Conant, who turned around Campbell Soup. His case studies are in almost every one of my courses. And what he did at Campbell's Soup, just writing simple notes to people to make them know that they're appreciated and feedback is a huge part of developing the ability for people to ask questions and feel comfortable. And that's what's going to help with engagement.

And to your point on mindfulness, it's really nothing more than an increased heightened level of awareness about, as you referenced, authentic self, how we're showing up, how we're relating to people. And I'm sure in your work, at your level of the game, you're finding a lot of caring leaders who want to get better at this. They want to empower their team to break through their fears, the assumptions, the technology issues that are holding them back or anything in the environment. Let's shift Gears to your book. You have a great title, Cracking the Curiosity Code. Are there a couple of things our viewers and listeners might take away and apply when they go to work today?

Well, I really would like for people to think outside their normal ways of thinking. I think a lot of people are tied into silos. They don't think outside their situation, of how they've always done things. Status quo thinking is very common. I write about a lot of different stories in the book. One of the stories is about a hospital in England where they actually were having very difficult time turning their beds around, doing things efficiently. One of the leaders went to car racing and saw a pit crew taking the cars and just turning them around so quickly. He thought, well, why can't they help us? Maybe they'll come look and see what we're doing. Maybe we can learn something from them. Improved 50% on their efficiency rate. And it's just not just thinking outside the silo. It was thinking outside the industry, thinking outside completely the way things have been done in the past. And I write about things like that. Naveen Jain has been on my show. He's the billionaire behind VIOME and Moon Express. And when I went to dinner with him, he was telling me that he gets into industries that he knows nothing about. He doesn't want to even know anything. He just wants to learn from scratch. So right now he's in the medical industry helping with your normal flora of your gut. And he's also landing on the moon to mind things. And then the next might be education and the next might be he goes just all over the board. And I asked him, I said, well, how do you learn this? If do you have a medical degree to do this this or do you have this degree to do that? And he has a very good education, engineering and all that, but he likes to start and just read everything he can from scratch about what he's in. It's almost like not having to unlearn your bad golf swing, you know, he goes in fresh instead of if you've already just. If you shoot like Charles Barkley and you try to start all over again, it's a little hard, right? So you have to start from nothing. Sometimes it's nice, but a lot of us don't have that luxury to start from scratch. But I did find it really interesting and that he just doesn't let anything limit him. And I think there's a lot of leaders like that that just say, you know, the only, the best way is just to read, read, read, read all you can about everything.

Readers are leaders. Leaders are readers. Ladies and gentlemen, if you're just hearing this, we've been chatting with Dr. Diane Hamilton, award winning speaker, nationally syndicated radio host, curiosity and emotional intelligence expert, Brand new book on the market, Cracking the Curiosity Code. Diane, how do people get ahold of your book since it's new on the market?

Well, you can get it everywhere. It's on Amazon, of course, but it's also on my website. I have crackingthecuriositycode.com as the main site where you can get the book. You can also access the assessment there. We're gonna have training for human resources and leadership professionals. But you could also take the assessment. Now. You could find me on social media sites Rdiane HAMILTON and that's Doctor for Doctors. So I'm on all over LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, you name it, you can find me that way.

Wonderful. Well, I thank you very much for being with us today on the Street Smarts podcast. Would you come back and visit with us in the future?

I will. Thank you so much for having me. This has been so much fun.

All right, Diane. Thanks very much, ladies and gentlemen. Street Smarts podcast with Harvey McKay and Cliff Jones. If you're just tuning in and new to the Street Smarts podcast, give us a little love on itunes and get your free basic membership@harveymckayacademy.com I'm Cliff Jones. Thanks. Thanks Dr. Diane Hamilton for being with us. Thanks again.

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