#168 - Hugh Jackman: Reflections on acting, identity, personal transformation, and the significance of being Wolverine

Hey everyone.

Welcome to the Drive podcast. I'm your host, Peter Attia. This podcast, my website and my weekly newsletter all focus on the goal of translating the science of longevity into something accessible for everyone. Our goal is to provide the best content in health and wellness, full stop, and we've assembled a great team of analysts to make this happen. If you enjoy this podcast, we've created a membership program that brings you far more in depth content. If you want to take your knowledge of this space to the next level, at the end of this episode, I'll explain what those benefits are. Or if you want to learn more now, head over to peterattiamd.com subscribe now. Without further delay, here's today's episode.

My guest this week is Hugh Jackman. Hugh is a name that a lot of you will recognize, of course, as he's an award winning actor. But more importantly, he's just an amazing human being and a close friend that I couldn't wait to sit down with. Hugh and I did something a little different this time. Kind of like I've done once in the past where it's less just an interview of Hugh and in many ways a discussion. Between us, though, I think I sort of went out and probably get to ask Hugh more questions than he asked me. Coming into this discussion, there were so many themes I wanted to explore and we actually got to quite a number of them. There are a handful of roles that Hugh has played that I think actually get at. Some of the many themes that I think are interesting with respect to longevity. Two of them in particular, of course, being Logan and the fountain, and we explore those in some detail. But I also talk about just Hugh's drive and what it is that led him to not just his craft, but to pursue it in the way that he's done. So. And on the flip side, Hugh asks me a lot of questions, including more questions that have never been asked before. And I think this probably comes across as a bit more of an intimate discussion than a podcast, but nevertheless, I hope you'll enjoy it. So, without further delay, please check out my conversation with Hugh Jackson. You, it's so awesome to have you here today. Although I do wish we were doing this in person. We've been talking about, yeah, we've been saying, well, let's wait and do this in person, let's wait and do this in person. But between all that's going on, I think this is the next best thing.

So, I mean, the best part of in person. I know, I know the conversation is great. But the cooking is off the charts. Your cooking. You and Jill combined do like a crazy good dinner. There's another. There's another whole avenue there for you.

I don't know. I still think some of the meals I've had at your place have blown my mind even more. And including the meals I haven't had. Do you remember the day I came over to your place? I think I was on day six out of seven on a fast.

Yes.

And you and Deb really, really thought you were going to get me to cave. And instead I just walked around the kitchen smelling it.

And I respected that.

Regretting it. Yeah.

Yeah. But I can't really take any credit for the meals at my house. You can take the credit for the ones at yours. I mean, right down to sourcing the food. I'm impressed. Very impressed.

Yes. Yeah. Well, I know you appreciated that. I want to come back to that because there's an interesting story about some of those meals. But this is kind of a different podcast for us. We've talked about this a lot, and we thought that what would be fun today is not just that I'm interviewing you, but in some ways that you're interviewing me. And I think that's in part because you're the most curious person I know. And that's evident anytime you are sitting down with anyone. I've watched you interact with so many different people. Even just in the few minutes before we were getting this podcast recording, when you were talking to Nick, you're just immediately obsessed with and interested in every detail of what another person knows and how they've come to know it and stuff like that. And so I think in the past couple of months, as we were thinking about this, it became clear there was no way I was going to be able to get away with just interviewing you because you were going to end up asking me a bunch of questions anyway. So we said, well, why don't we just acknowledge that this is gonna be a discussion and not an interview?

No, it's my favorite way to do it anyway. I often, in interviews, no matter what, and I've done a lot, I always try to ask questions. Cause I get bored of talking about myself anyway. And if you think about my job, my job is human nature. If you're an actor and you're not curious about people, it's gonna be a real struggle.

So I do wanna start with this idea of. Cause it's actually something Olivia asked me yesterday. I said, hey, Olivia, I'm talking to Hugh tomorrow. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because she's very interested in music. And she said, will you ask him a question for Ms. At Schur? She said, when did he know he was good enough that he could make it in his chosen profession? And I said, I don't know. Let me ask him that.

I think when I got cast and I got the job at the Royal National Theatre in London. So I'm. I'm now 28, I've studied for four years at college. You certainly don't know that. I mean, the stats on college and I went to probably one of the top two colleges in Australia, three year full time program. The stats are maybe 5% actually make a living from that. So there's 18 people chosen in a year. So I certainly didn't have it there. And then I came out of the gate and got quite a bit of work straight off the bat, which was. I was super lucky. Let's not Forget I was 26, so I needed to work. But when Trevor Nunn. I auditioned for Trevor Nunn for Sunset Boulevard in. Sorry, I should give you some context, sir. Trevor Nunn is one of the great theater directors of all time. And I was a huge fan from his work at the Royal Shakespeare Company, but also Les Miserables, Nicholas Nickleby, you name it, he was just one of the greats. And so when he came to Australia doing Sunset Boulevard, I actually didn't want to do the musical. I wanted to go. I was an actor who weirdly got into musicals and I thought I got to get out because I was getting pigeonholed into that world. And I said to the casting director, listen, I don't want to be in the show. And this is like the most presumptuous thing I'm ever going to ask of you, but I would love to audition for Trevor. Like, he's my hero, but I don't want to do it. So I totally understand if you tell me to get stuffed. And she said, all right, I'm just going to put you in. So I went along and I auditioned and Trevor, I could tell it went well. It was like an amazing hour that I spent with him. And unusually it was in a theater. So I was there. I had this feeling of what it was going to be like working with him. And I remember thinking, if he offers me this, I'm going to do it because I need to work with this guy. It was just so clear. And really that was the turning point when someone like Trevor Nunn, kind of. And then he took me to London to do Oklahoma. That's when I thought, all right, that was the turning point for me. And he was the one who gave me that confidence to see, okay, so you're getting work in Sydney and Australia, can you make it overseas? And he was the one who gave me that.

It's interesting, is it sort of like being an athlete with obviously a different life cycle, but where you show these glimmers of greatness early on, but you're still constantly evolving in the craft. So, for example, consider like a Tom Brady everybody loves to talk about. Oh, my God, you look at him in his combine, you would have never predicted what he could have done. Of course, he's the backup to Drew Bledsoe, and if Bledsoe hadn't have gotten injured in the 2001 season, who knows how long he would have sat on the bench. But then once he got his chance, all of this preparation he'd done in advance, he was sort of ready to unleash it on the NFL. Did you sort of feel that you were in this constant state of pent up potential and you just needed an opportunity to demonstrate it, or was it much more incremental than that?

Still is incremental. I marvel at those people who have the, I know what I have to offer. Give me a shot, give me the ball, give me the ball. Like, come on, coach. I marvel at that kind of confidence. I've always had the courage to say, give me the ball, whether I felt like getting it or not. And I realized that that was essential at some point. You get it. In fact, I was pretty scared of drama school and I just had a rule. If I just put my hand up when they said, all right, we need someone to do the scene, or we're doing put my hand up. Because mainly because I didn't want to sit around for an hour and a half being scared whilst watching everyone else. I just had wanted to go. So if you and I were bungee jumping and I was scared, I'd be like, here, I'm going first. So I. But really, and I think some people saw that as courage or confidence, but it wasn't. It was more. I just wanted to make sure that I didn't miss an opportunity to try and to grow. And I think for me, what happened with something like Trevor Nunn, it wasn't like, ah, yeah, I'm going to be great in this or this. I just felt like a thoroughbred running in the paddock. Like, oh, this just feels so good. And by the way, part of my head's going, this is Sir Trevor Nunn, who's worked with Judy Dench, Patrick, you name it. Ian McKellen, like the greats. And we were having this kind of great repartee. I could just. It felt like a match and that feeling of a match just made me go, all right, yeah, I deserve to be galloping in this paddock and hopefully that'll continue. I'm going to ask a question because I can just. You say, I'm curious, but I can see your curiosity. What about you? You are one of the most. I'd written down some questions. This is not one of them, but you're obviously one of the most successful doctors in the world and listen to podcasts. When was the moment where you knew that you could look after some of the most demanding, high achieving people on the planet?

You know, that's tough. I don't. Probably the same way that you would say it. It's not entirely clear. I don't feel like I've got to some point where, yes, I can do this and everything. I think there's a constant sense of, am I doing enough? Am I learning enough? What am I missing? What am I forgetting? What could I be doing better? How can we make this process better? What I think I can say is it was probably about a year ago that I stopped feeling like an imposter. So that was a big transition. Right? That was a big step forward, which is there was this sort of lingering feeling of what if you're just nowhere near as good as people think you are? And I think I'm over that now.

Which is only a year ago. Only a year ago?

Yeah, only a year ago. To get to the point of, it's okay, nobody is perfect and you're not representing yourself to be all knowing and you're not an imposter.

Was that the drip, drip, drip of achievement or was there a crystallizing moment?

Yeah, that was a lot of therapy, actually. That was learned on the couch. That was a big challenge to my identity. I think that was also recognizing how much of identity is wrapped up in what you do versus who you are. And I think so. Part of it was kind of releasing my identity, being involved in my work, which is an ongoing struggle.

How do you remind yourself of that? Do you have a way of reminding yourself?

Yeah, I think, honestly, kids are a great reminder of that, which I know we're going to talk about a lot, but I think a lot of the things I do have the potential to warp my head around my identity. So exercise, driving a race car, shooting my bow and arrow, medicine, all of those things have the potential, if I'm not diligent, to consume me in a way that also sort of determines my self worth. But if I anchor to my eulogy and not my resume, which is sort of my. I think I've shared this with you, but that's kind of like my mission statement in life is make your eulogy better than your resume. Then I just say, look, these people here, these little people, these kids are the ones that are going to matter at my eulogy. So sometimes I'll come in the house after shooting really poorly and I'll see my little boys running around and it's just much easier to now dismiss the thoughts of how frustrating it is that I can't shoot that well today when I sort of see them playing and realize, well, if I play with them, they don't even know the difference. And I think that's true of medicine as well.

Right. So brilliantly articulated. I just need to drill down on. You said, am I doing enough? I completely relate to this. I'm an overworker. The job for me is what do I really want to achieve and how can I do it with less? Because I think insecurity has led me to overwork. I guess I'm asking you that question, am I doing enough? Which certainly helped get you and I to where we are today. Right. Because we probably did work harder than other people. We never stopped. But is clearly actually not a disciplined recipe for wellness or happiness or being a good husband or a good father. How have you made that transition? Or do you worry? I guess what I'm asking is do you worry that you won't be good enough if you don't worry about being good enough?

This is something I've spoken at length with Esther Perel, who's someone you know well and have come to respect greatly. When I wrote out my recovery contract a little over a year ago, this was a very important part of that recovery contract, which was being able to, on a daily basis, journal about the trade off that you describe, which is if you start to prioritize your eulogy over your resume, you will make deliberate trade offs that may sacrifice your performance in the short run. And you have to be able to accept that and you have to be able to write about that in a sort of dialectical way, which is it is okay to say goodbye to an opportunity today in exchange for something that you value more in the long run. And it's okay to acknowledge that I think was her point. Right. In other words, don't just Sort of shove it under the rug and say, well, I'm just, you know, I'm going to be much more focused on my family and less focused on my craft and act like that doesn't matter. No, it's a very deliberate trade off. And it's okay to acknowledge that that's a trade off. And it's okay to acknowledge that you might pay a price for that in the short run.

So how specific is the journaling? I'm not a journaler. Can you give me an example? If I was reading it, what would it look like?

I actually enjoy journaling a lot. I think it's one of my favorite activities that augments my mental health. You and I have spoken about it, but for me, therapy is a very important part of this. I have a number of therapists, actually, and I'm involved in. I do sort of regular psychotherapy. I do something called dialectical behavioral therapy, which is something I'm really interested in. And I've become more and more fond of as a tool to help me change behaviors. But in that journal is sort of where a lot of thoughts go in an unprocessed way. And in fact, one of the chapters of my book which you've read, you're one of maybe six people who's read it. Actually, that chapter basically wrote itself because it was simply extractions from the journal. I basically just went back to two volumes of my journals and literally just sat down one day. This was actually at Esther's recommendation, and put sticky pads in pages that took me back through the story. And then the next day, literally just wrote 26,000 words basically into that chapter out of those journals. So I recommend it for a lot of people. I do think that it's a great way to process info. And it's private. I've never shared it with anybody, so no one's read it directly. But it's a place where I can be as honest as I can be anywhere.

Can I talk to you about that chapter? I won't mention, I mean, it was a great privilege to read it.

You were the first person to read it.

Wow. I remember being incredibly moved by it. It was so articulate and honest, vulnerable, smart. And you could tell it was years of synthesizing everything. And I remember, I think the first thing I told you after reading it, I think it was chapter. It said chapter 15. I think it was chapter 15.

That's right.

I said, dude, for me, that's got to be chapter one. I said, because if I'm going to you, if I'm picking up your book because I want to improve my life, whether it be my longevity, my health, my this, my body. I might think I want to improve my blood pressure results or whatever, but actually, in the end, we all just want to be better humans, right? We want that eulogy to be stronger than our resume. And that was one of the greatest examples of teaching that I ever heard, which came from your ability to go, I've failed here, here, I've learned this, I've learned that. And I don't think I've ever heard that from a doctor before, to be honest. And it made all the other chapters go, sure, tell me what to do about blood pressure. Tell me how to train, tell me how to. I'm in. Because I could see where it was going and I can't wait for people to actually read it, even if they only read that first chapter. You'll get a lot from it.

It's so interesting to know how it's going to shake out. Just now that book is being. It's in the process of undergoing a major revision. It's far too long. So that book, when it's submitted, was 180,000 words. It needs to be chopped down by a full third. But I've said a couple of things to the editor, and one of them is I feel strongly about this chapter staying in the book because there was even some discussion about just discarding that whole chapter because it's so different from the rest of the book. And as much as I'm afraid to put that chapter out there, because in some levels it reflects. It's all my mistakes, right? It reflects so poorly. But I also think what you say is true and what we'll talk about, I think more is true, which is living long without living well, in terms of mental health, it's a form of torture, in a way. And I want to obviously talk about the Fountain, which is one of my favorite movies that you are in. And I want to explore some of those themes when we get there.

Yeah, well, I was thinking when I was asking you, I said we have stuff in common, but it is different for actors. I mean, in some ways, every time I do a job, you're open to criticism from critics or people or bloggers, whatever, but I actually feel the internal pressure from your industry, other doctors, academics, is more brittle. In fact, if I do a job, Leonardo DiCaprio doesn't write an op ed and go, you know what? This guy is the worst. Your fellow actors might bitch about you behind closed doors, but your Fellow actors are not getting out there trashing you, Whereas I think that's a real thing. Tell me if I'm wrong. But in the medical industry, it's much.

Tougher and I'm sure, I think it's tougher for you.

Really.

You're on a much bigger stage. You're on a much bigger stage. And what performance are you most proud of on the screen?

There's elements of the fountain, I'm going to say elements I'm super proud of Les Mis. That was some really frightening stuff for me. And elemental stuff, Logan, because I knew that was a 17 year journey to get to that. There are moments in Prisoners in moments. In the Prestige, the first movie I ever did, which no one has ever seen, called Erskine Bill Kings, which we shot in three weeks. First time I did a movie. I actually am proud of a lot of stuff in the Frontrunner, which it didn't come and go, but I didn't quite land in the way, I guess we all hoped. It's moments. I very rarely come away from a film without criticism, personal criticism.

That's my point, right. Is no matter how great a job you do, there's always someone, given the stage you're on, that's going to say something that represents a total lack of understanding of what actually took place. So in that sense, I think the criticism that an actor or an athlete, a professional athlete or a politician, and look, in our culture today, politician's a dirty word. But I gotta believe there are some of them that are still good.

Of course.

Think about a job where a 60% approval rating is amazing. Like if you're a politician, a 60% approval rating means you're exceptional and that means 40% of people can't stand you. Speaking of approval ratings, I love this statistic, you know, these Q ratings. Right?

Right. Yeah.

Do you know that you have the highest Q rating in Australia? Your Q rating, which is a measure of popularity and likability, is 99%. And I think the next person after you is 67%.

Yeah, it's a friend of mine who runs Foxtel, which is like a big sort of cable network in Australia. And he did come from marketing, originally in pr. But anyway, he rang me and he told me this. Why don't he tell me, I think I was going to do something like a commercial for something. He goes, and so the curating is more around if you're going to endorse a product.

Yeah. How much do you trust this person?

Exactly. Yeah. And he rang me and he said, dude, for the last eight years you've been the number one guy by such a long way. And he said, but here's the thing, I know you're going to hear that and all you're going to think is what? There's 1% who don't like me. What do I have to do to get the 1%? That's exhausting. That's probably. And I laugh my head off. And there's certainly an element of truth to that.

Well, that's why you absolutely could never go into politics.

If I'm critical of myself, I think the worst. When I did the Front Runner, people said, oh, you want to go into pod? I said no.

Did you spend time with Gary Hart, by the way, in prep for that movie?

Yeah, I went and spent time with him and let me just, before I forget when I asked, told my dad I was going to go and study acting and I sort of wanted his blessing. My dad never gave advice about. There was, you know, he always thought it's your choice. And then after I'd make a decision, he'd let me know what he thought, which was super frustrating at the time, but now I think incredibly wise and disciplined. But I said I'm getting to act. And he goes, I definitely think you have the talent, but I think you're too thin skinned. That was his comment to me. So I've always kept that and actually it was helpful to me. I don't read reviews. I'll get the temperature of the Wire. Someone say, what's the temperature here? What's the basic idea? But once I start reading, particularly when you're doing stage, it gets into your head and actually a compliment is sometimes worse than a negative. A negative can fire you up. Oh yeah, I'll show them. Oh yeah? Really? You think? I dunno, you know, but a positive like it can, can kill you.

So there's sort of different, right. There's the review for On Screen where you can't do anything about it. The work is done, it's out there. Then there's the review on stage where you're going out night after night after night. So do you think about those types of reviews differently?

Totally. So I really don't look at the reviews for On On Stage again. I'll just try and find the thing. Because, for example, I did a show called the Boy From Oz. It was back in 2003. We did not get well reviewed, I did not read any reviews. But my feeling on opening night being on stage was like, man, this is landing. Like this connects with People, this is. I can feel it's great. So I remember we got together on the next night, we were back on, and we were in a circle, and our producers came and they did one of those. Don't worry, we committed to the show. And I remember looking around going, what's going on? How bad was it? And it turned out it was not great. So in theater, particularly in New York, particularly back then, if you didn't get a review from the New York Times, it could kill your show. Because a lot of the other reviewers followed that. Most people look at the New York Times, and it depends. Ticket sales depend on that. Movies, it's not always dependent on that. So, anyway, we then ended up. But I could just. I was like, no, I feel this connects. I really feel it connects. And we ended up being kind of a massive hit. And it did, actually. I could feel people came back and back and back. One woman saw 200 times out of 400 shows that I did. It was people just. I could feel. And by the end, we were like, you couldn't get a ticket. So in that way, I'm kind of glad I didn't read those reviews. Because I knew no one knows better than me and all those other actors. Not even the director. I know when it's landing a bit like a comedian on stage and, you know, something is landing or not. And someone could write a review, and it will. But film is different film, you're removed from it. You're not in the editing process unless you're part of that or directing it. And you never really know how it's going to land. And I do actually now think I've sort of grown up a little bit and think it's worthwhile reading really good reviewers to see what their take is on it. But I think I was always basically scared to read, what the hell is this guy doing on the screen? Like, he's not that good. I don't understand it. Blah, blah, blah. And that something like that would just bring me to my knees. That's what always scared me, I think.

So does Deb have the same sort of relationship? Like, when you are doing something or when she is doing something? Can you not read for each other? I mean, is it harder to see your spouse going through something that you deem unfair? And then do you have sort of an agreement that says, look, you can read these reviews, but I don't want you to share with me the nitty gritty of it? You can give me the gestalt if it's productive for Me, how do you navigate that?

Yeah, that's exactly how it works. So I remember I did a one man show here on Broadway and Deb came down to me. She goes, I've read them all and they're amazing. And I know you don't want to read them, but you have to read this. It's in the New York Times and you need to read it. So I read it and I was like, deb, I don't think this is a great review. She goes, what are you talking about? It's amazing. And I said, I don't think so. There was a line in there that I remember to this day. All Hugh Jackman asks of his audience is that you love him, loving you, loving him. And I kind of went, what? But in my heart, I knew that was like, this is kind of bullshit. He's really. He wants you to think that he's really there for you, but I'm not sure he is. It stuck with me to this day. I remember going bright red, reading it, going, is that am I? Am I anyway? And Deb was like, oh, my God, I'll never give it to you again. But I kind of, in a way, what I didn't want to hear, I kind of. It might have been a throwaway line from the review, I don't know. But it certainly. But ultimately, I think it helped me because it made me go, all right, really, look at yourself. Is that the real me? Because I'm doing a one man show. It's like elements of my life. How much am I manipulating that to show you what the version of me I want you to see, I guess what that line is about and how much of it is actually me. And that's work in progress for all of us. Like, if I do that show now, I would say I'm more authentic than I was 10 years ago, but it's a good question. And Deb is like a lioness. Like, I mean, she'll just want to lop someone's head off if they give me a bad review. She's very, very protective. I'm sure Jill is the same for you, right?

Well, it's funny. So Jill really has enormous disdain for social media, which is really the place where people are going to attack you the most. For example, recently I put out a number of podcasts that dealt with vaccines, vaccine, science, and a lot of the misinformation around this. And not surprisingly, you're going to get a very small vocal minority of people who are just going attack you over this kind of stuff and do so in a very personal way. It's almost impossible for these people to say, this is your interesting take on the science, but have you ever considered such and such? No. No. It's usually like, you're in the pockets of pharma. You're an idiot. Literally. I had one person compare me to Adolf Hitler and say that what you're doing is propagating so much lies that are going to hurt so many people, that this is like Hitler killing Jews. So when you have this type of vitriol coming at you, Jill's view is, why do you even do this? Why in the world do you do this? Why would you ever have a single account on social media that even gives people an opportunity to comment?

What's your answer?

It's that, look, I don't really look at these things that much. Frankly, it's very rare that I look at them. And it's even rarer that I would respond maybe once every six months I have a lapse in judgment and I'll actually respond to someone like that trying to clarify something. And I'm O for 20 on ever changing anybody's mind who's in that stage. You'd think after the first 10, I would have learned when someone comes at you with that, you can't talk rationally with them. Joe Rogan gave me really, really great advice a few months ago after a particularly awful attack, because I said, joe, how do you cope with this? How in the world? Because you must be. You're such a polarizing figure. And he just said, post and ghost, post and ghost. Whenever he puts something up, he never, ever, ever looks at a single comment. So in some ways, that's our analog, I think.

Yeah. But in the end, I guess you're doing it because I can't imagine. Do you care about those people who are saying you're Adolf Hitler?

No. I mean, when someone says something so ridiculous, that doesn't faze me. I think what does bother me, though, truthfully, is that I know that a lot of the people who have really warped views about science will suffer for those views. Science is a hard topic, and I think scientists have not always done a good job explaining it. And I think that people do sometimes pay a price for this. And so I think in some ways I just. I have empathy for people who are, I think, being misled. And obviously I have incredible empathy for parents of kids with autism who think this vaccine did this to my child, even though there's not a shred of evidence to suggest that. But I understand, of course, you want to have someone to blame for this. So I think, if anything, I just want to be able to offer those people some hope that says, hey, you didn't do this to your child. So that's part of what I think makes me a bit sad.

I think that's why your book is a bit of a game changer for me. From your lesure depth, I think it's incredibly humanizing. I think a lot of people feel with medical stuff or with doctors, they want confidence. They want to feel like what they're getting is the right answer. Because I don't know, I don't haven't done any science. I don't know should I take this pill or that pill? So you want that confidence, but sometimes that can come across as arrogance, I guess, from some doctors. And then people want to question it and lump it in with some kind of government conspiracy. I don't really understand that. But your book, I think, will go a long way to just humanizing it and saying, hey, I can be wrong, by the way, and I've been wrong, and here's how I've been wrong, and here's what I've learned from it. But I've done a lot of work on this, and this is the way forward. I want to kind of ask you something about. I've never asked you this before, but you live in a world of data in many ways, right? And you. You clearly kind of love data. I think you. You love the puzzle of it and math and, you know, you've helped me out some things where I can. You love solving. I want to do it this way, which has amazed me. Have you ever gone against the data with your gut? Like, your guts just said, he really should stand on his left foot and turn around four times, and there's zero data on it. Or the data might say, this is ridiculous. Have you ever gone with your gut instead of the data?

I'm sure I have at times. This is a ridiculous example, but probably the best example of my life, choosing to marry Jill. I remember we were dating when I was in residency, and I just, at the time, was so focused on my work, and I just wanted to be the best surgeon in the world. I mean, I was so maniacally driven, Hugh. And how she even put up with me, I'll never understand. Like, every. You know, we're already working 110 to 120 hours a week in this hospital. And when I would get out of the hospital, I only had two priorities, exercise and more practicing and reading. I made a commitment to read. I don't remember exactly what it was, but something like 15 pages a day out of surgical textbooks. I ended up spending a few years summarizing the top shelf of my bookcase, which was. I forget. I think it was, like, 17,000 words of surgical text into 150 pages. And then I also would practice doing these very delicate anastomoses every night with my surgical instruments in these models that I had built. And so when we were dating, like, even before we would go out for dinner, I would have to do these things. And she'd be sitting there twiddling her thumbs, sitting on my bed while I'd be doing these things. And then I'd even make her come over and inspect it. I'd be like, put the magnifying loops on and look at that. Do you think that's perfect? Could that. And it became a joke. And even she had sort of, like, this thought of, like, you know, this is a guy who will never put me first. He will always put his work first.

Did she articulate that to you then?

Not then, but later on. This is actually a very personal story, which I guess I'm sharing now, but the week before our wedding, we really, collectively had second thoughts. And we sat outside, I remember exactly where we were, and thought, maybe we shouldn't do this. Maybe I'm just not the kind of guy who's ever going to want to be married, and that's that. And I guess you could argue that was sort of the data talking to me. The data was saying, hey, surgeons have a divorce rate of X.

Did you initiate this talk or did Jill?

I did. No, it was 100% me. And then something in my gut just overrode that. And by the end of that day, I decided that, no, there's something here that I don't yet understand. And it's going to be more important. And I will say, and you now know how my life has turned out. It turned out to be the most important decision I've ever made, because I don't think I'd be doing what I'm doing without Jill. In other words, when I think of all of the difficult things that have come in my life, having her as the base of my support has been the most important thing. And she is a unique person. Everybody would say that about their spouse. I suspect it's that she's the right person for me. Right. She is the right person for me. And that would not have been apparent from any amount of data. But I do Think my gut probably sensed that. Sensed an ability for an unconditional love that probably even transcends what most spouses could provide.

Yeah, I mean, it's clear from the outside that you meant to be together again. That's a gut feeling you get. Actually, I have a little bit of a similar story at the beginning of my relationship with Deb, who is down. Deb, you okay if I tell the story about you at the restaurant? You okay with that? All right. So early. It's two or three weeks in, but I. I just had this feeling two weeks in, and now Deb and I met on a television series. She's the star, and it is my first job. So we started dating two or three months into it, but both of us, it's an. Unlike you, never date your co star. That's the biggest cliche. It kills the series. The whole series was about this kind of sexual tension between. In the prison, between the psychologist played by Deb and the prisoner, me. So everything was wrong about it. Anyway, getting through that. We get together, we're there and so happy. And I'm falling in love. And I am just like this. I've never felt like this before. This. I didn't really know it could be. Like. I didn't know that there were human beings like Deb on the planet. And I was super happy being single. First job out of drama school, 26 happy days. We go out two or three weeks in, never spend a night apart. We go out to dinner. I want to say there's 14 people at the dinner. I sit down sort of on one corner, and Deb sits in the literal opposite corner on the other side. And I'm like, fine, you know, whatever. That's okay. And at one point, I was telling a story and the whole table was listening to my story or Joe. I can't remember what it was, but I remember looking down and Deb had her back turned to me, talking to someone next to her. So apart from Deb and that person, everyone's listening to me. And the thought just came into my head, or more in my gut, oh, she's trying to break up with me. And that stayed with me for the dinner. When we get in the car, I just knew it. And I said, and this is not me at all. The me up until that point was, if I'm getting the data that someone wants to break up with me, I'm out first. I'm. I'm out. Like, if I. I'm not waiting there to get dumbed, I'm going To like, see like. So I'm there and I'm in the car and I turned to Dev and I said, you're trying to work out reasons to break up with me, aren't you? And I remember she goes, yeah, yeah. I said, I get it. I said, listen, I know you're scared. Remember it was my first job. There was a star at the time. Her New Year's resolution was, I'm not going to date any more actors. And definitely none under the age of 30. Right. And I'm 26 year old actor in his first job. Like, I was her worst nightmare. And I remember these words came out of my mouth. I still to this day didn't feel like me. I just said, well, I understand you're scared. I get it. I guess I would be too. But don't worry, I know we're going to be together for the rest of our lives. I can feel it. So you better just get over it. And she just laughed. And that was kind of it. That was sort of the moment like, I'm forever grateful. I mean, I knew and I'm the most, you know me, I'm very indecisive. I can't whatever lunch, have this or that or super indecisive. And somehow with Deb is one of those moments. I just went, oh, this is absolutely clear. And it is the greatest relief. And when you get that, I always say to people, just if you get that moment, just go with it. Because it's turned out obviously to be one of the greatest blessings in my life. We just celebrated 25 years together and it just gets better and better and better. And there's no way I would be here or as happy or who I am today without it. So we've got that in common for sure.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any other moments like that? When I grew up in Canada, there was this sports network called tsn. The Sports Network. And every night they would show a highlight called the TSN Turning Point where they would pick one game and. And there was one play in one game that totally changed the game. So I've always had in my back of my mind this idea of like the TSN Turning Points of your life. And that was obviously one of them for you, right? That's a very important decision. Had you fallen into your default state, which is to run totally different life. What are some other moments that you've made? Enormous. Maybe at the time they didn't feel like enormous decisions, but they totally changed the arc of your life, whether it be personally or Professionally, yeah.

I'll tell you a little one which is. I just want to tell you this because it's a little freaky and I think it goes back to. I was brought up in a very religious household. My father was converted to Christianity by Billy Graham. So we lived that sort of life very much every holiday was church this, and I remember praying every single night for most of my childhood through till 15, 16, that God, just tell me, make it clear to me what you want me to do. That's all I ask. I actually do not care what it is. It could be anything. But I want to know that I'm on that path. The idea that is in Christianity that I was taught was there is God's will. It's a narrow path, it's easy to go off it and most of the world will distract you from it, but stick with it. So I went and auditioned for a drama school after I'd done a degree majored in journalism and before I went off to do that career, I thought, I'm going to audition for this drama school because, long story, but I'd spent time doing a play and just loved it. And it was clear to me I loved it more than I did my degree. So I went, auditioned, I got in.

Had you acted before? Had you done any acting before?

Only amateur. So I did amateur all through school, even at college. I was in local community plays and I did a play at college in my last semester, which made me realize I was spending way more time on the play than my thesis and everything. So I thought, something's off here. I might just spend a year. While I'm waiting, I'll do this course. And I found this course that was in Sydney. I wanted to do a course in England, but I couldn't afford it, so I want to do this one in Sydney. And I got in and I remember opening up the letter and it said, you're accepted. And I was so happy. And at the bottom it said, please make payable your check for the tuition of three and a half thousand dollars. Now that's not going to sound like a lot of money, but in Australia when I was growing up, you didn't pay for tertiary education, so university was free. It's now not quite like that, but I was like, I hadn't even thought of it and I just finished a degree. My dad had helped me and I was like, three and a half grand. I don't have three and a half. Whatever, I screwed it up, I put it in the trash and I thought, oh well, There goes that. They're not meant to be. And it's going to sound like an exaggeration. I swear to you it's not. My grandmother had died three months before and the bequest came to me the following day and a check for three and a half thousand dollars. And I'm literally fishing through my trash can, which of course I never emptied anyway, so it was there. And at that time I wasn't as sort of maniacally into Christianity in that way, but I was like, oh, that's just super clear. So that's sort of a TSM moment, but not really of my own doing in a way. But then at the end of that year, I got an audition for Neighbors, which is a soap opera, but it was like a seven o' clock at night. Beverly Hills 90210. Yeah, yeah, Melrose Place. It was a massive show in Australia, huge in England. I mean, the amount of people who come from it as actors that you would know is extraordinary. I got offered a role. It was, it sort of came out of the blue. I auditioned, I got it and all of a sudden I'm like, oh my God, I've got a role. And I remember the contract is $2,000 a week. I'm like, 2,000? What am I going to do with $2,000? This is unbelievable. Two year contract. This is crazy. But I was in the middle of auditioning for a major drama school. I auditioned, it went well. I got a call back, I went again. The contract hadn't come through for Neighbors, so I just kept sort of auditioning. And long story short, I got offered a spot and I had a weekend where I had to decide. And I remember I had an agent back then who was begging me, like going, what are you doing? Or thinking you must. What are you talking about? This is Neighbors. This is a job. You must do it. So I have the weekend to decide whether or not I'm going to go to a three year acting course or go off and be professional actor. And I went to my dad, who I, as I told you before, he wasn't really in the business of giving advice. And I said, dad, I just don't know what to do. I see both sides. I don't know what I should do. Like my agent saying, go into the thing, earn the money, go off and study. You'll have money and you'll have experience. You'll be in front of a camera and then keep studying. I said, but Dad, I just don't trust myself once I start working that I'm going to do the training and I don't feel I deserve an audition at the Royal Shakespeare Company, which is where I want to work, or the National Theater. And I don't think working on anyone doing all this. And I remember he said to me, he goes, cube, I can't answer that for you. That's the decision you have to make. You're 22 and this is your choice. Great, thanks, Dad. I was like. And I went off. I thought, I'll just put it away, don't think about it. By the next day, it was just clear to me, that idea of, I want to work at the Royal Shakespeare Company, when am I going to get the training that makes me feel I deserve to audition for that. A bit like you, you want to be a great surgeon. You didn't want to just, I'm going to work in that little place down there, I've got the job, at least I can do that kind of work, you know. No, I wanted to have the opportunity to do everything. So in the end, I decided. I went to my dad and I said, dad, I've decided to go and go to drama school and not do the job. And he goes, oh, thank God. Oh, I'm so happy. I said what I said. You knew all the time. He goes, yes, but I just. If I made the choice for you, then I would have denied you that moment of maturing and growing and it would have forever been. Dad told me. And I remember that to this day. But that was one of those great TSN moments for me at Turning Points.

Your relationship with your dad is kind of amazing. How old were you when your mom left?

I was 8. So I was 8 when mom left, but she had been unwell. First year and a half of my life I'd spent with my godparents. So I. I think Mum went into hospital when I was about. With postnatal depression major. When I was about three months old, she went into hospital. So I was with my godparents for the. For that period. Then I came back and I remember periods where Mum would be just going away for a week, which I guess was some kind of reset or maybe. I actually don't know if it was like an official sort of facility or rehab or just getting away, by the way, five kids, you know?

Yes. And you're the fifth, right?

I'm the fifth, yeah. I'm the youngest. So when I was eight, she left. I don't think she ever planned. In fact, I know she didn't. She told me she didn't Plan to leave for good. And it just sort of did. And she wasn't in a great place and. And her mum was not well, so she went back to look after her mum in England. And so my dad, from when I was 8, my older sister, I think, was 15 or 16. So he brought up, you know, from those ages, he brought up all of us. He's sort of an amazing man in that way. It's like, if you think about what that decade must have been like, I don't think he had a moment to himself for 10 years. I don't ever remember. Like there was sometimes he used to, he was an accountant at Price Waterhouse and he used to travel for work. And I actually remember now. I know we travel when I had young kids, like just the first two days when you travel, when you have young kids is the greatest thing when, when you go somewhere that people, you want to go out and go, shut up, no, close the curtains. I want to go to bed at 8 o'. Clock, I want to sleep and then I want to wake up and I want to read the entire newspaper from front to back or the other way around and I want to drink coffee, I don't want to talk to anybody. But he had an incredible, incredible time that decade in many ways. I learned many of my, I guess, ethics, hard work from him for sure.

How much do you think that your mom's departure impacted this perfectionism and this insatiable probable desire to sort of please people? Do you feel that that was either conscious or subconscious?

Subconscious for sure. It certainly rocked my world, as you can imagine. I was 8, but I remember people thinking, oh, you don't really. I remember them saying, it doesn't. I'm like, I totally understand. Like, I think we underestimate 8 year olds. And also I have older brothers and sisters, so I certainly have learned after that more about the dynamics of the relationship. But I was never, and I can't say this for all my siblings, I don't want to speak for them, but I don't ever remember being super angry with Mum. And I, on some level, I always had a kind of connection to her and a sort of understanding that she loved me, that she had done her best. Like on some level, I think I always felt that, but it was certainly a hole for sure. And I had a lot of fear that got exacerbated from that sort of, I guess you'd call it anxiety now. I didn't at the time, just scared of lots of things and I guess that unknowing I can rationalize it now that. That perfectionism in me is. You got to work really hard to make sure people don't leave. Right? You've got to really. You've got to be at your best. And it's interesting, I just finished watching that great documentary by Ken Burns and Lynn. Is it Novik? Lynn Novick?

I think so, yeah.

It's called College Behind Bars, and it's about the Bard Prison initiative. Just. Anyway, it's an amazing doco. If you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it. And I actually, in this, not lost in me. My first job was in a prison playing a prisoner. It feels to me very similar dynamic, like when you have some kind of abandonment or a hole. My way of coping with that was I'm going to make sure that I please every. That no one's going to want to leave me behind ever. Like, that's not going to be. I. I'll work whatever you want me to. I'll work hard. I'll do this. That. In that way, I think it's really. I think it's sort of the opposite in some ways of people who end up being rebellious. By the way, my next brother up was really rebellious and all of that, and I was the opposite. I would do all the things my brother did, but I never wanted anyone to find out. I just wanted to stay in the good graces of everybody, and that's how it impacted me.

That is such an amazing topic to explore, as you know, our mutual friend Paul Conti, who's really one of the most thoughtful people when it comes to understanding trauma. And certainly your mom leaving when you're eight. If that's not trauma, I'm not sure what is. But one of the things that's so interesting in talking with Paul is kind of the ways that two people in the same household even could have different adaptations to the same trauma. One could move one way and your brother could move another way. And yet those were both serving very important needs to each of you. They were both adaptations that were serving you and usually more productively than unproductively. Which, of course, brings us back to kind of how we open the discussion. At some point, those adaptations generally become counterproductive. At some point, those adaptations catch up with you and they start to become maladaptive instead of purely adaptive. And I think that's the thing that people struggle with, is understanding, which, again, is another form of dialectical synthesis, which is, hey, there was a day when this was a really good adaptation. And it sort of got me to a certain place. But now it's a little counterproductive. And that doesn't mean that I can't embrace what it's helped me do, what it's protected me from. And yet there's still a rationale to be made for changing things and improving.

I couldn't agree more. I actually want to ask this to you because knowing your history in particular, I didn't know that you had that desire to be the best surgeon in the world. But it doesn't surprise me. When you did athletics or you did swims, it wasn't a three mile swim, it was a 50 mile swim. It was like you would push yourself through crazy limits. Physical, mental, spiritual, emotional. I need to. There was that need to push. Am I right?

Sure, yeah.

You know, I've only recently read As a Man Thinketh. It's like written in 1904. It's like this big. It's a great book. And James Allen writes in that that the growth is. Is part of nature. It's very natural growth and it is uncomfortable, but it is the natural state. So I think both you and I went beyond that natural state. In our need to be successful or to achieve or to grow. We would go through unusual amounts of pain or sacrifice. You've done it, I would say, more than me. I think your capacity is one of. Almost everyone I know has been so huge. Now, I know you're more sort of measured about it, but what is the line? How would you coach your kids about? What is the line where it's actually destructive and not productive?

This is such an important topic that I struggle with a lot and I talk about a lot with my wife because I don't know the answer. There are times I look back at my upbringing and my childhood and I think, I look back at the child and I feel sorry for certain things that the child endured. But then I think, but look at what came out of that, right? Look at the resilience that came out of that. But then I think I don't want my kids to experience some of the things I experienced as a kid. But I also want them to have the internal drive to do things that I wonder, how can that be created from a positive place? Because I do think most of my drive came from a negative place. It's important at least for me to separate the part that is above the surface, that which one sees, the striving, the achievement, all of those things from that which is beneath the surface, which is, is it coming from a place of self, love, or Is it coming from a place of self flogging? And I think in my case, pretty much everything I did came from a place of self flogging. And therefore, I think there's really no scenario under which that's the right thing. So, first of all, I don't think that's uniformly the case. I think there are lots of people who are doing well in whatever it is they choose to do, who can do it in a way where they're not sort of flogging themselves to get there. And what I want to understand better, and one of the things I'm really interested in exploring as a parent is how do you encourage your kids to achieve the best that they can do, but not from this place of beating themselves up to do it?

Yeah, totally. It's so hard. I remember asking my dad, Oscar, who's now 21, was maybe four or five or six, I think Ava was born. And I remember saying to Dad, I said, dad, give me some advice. You've had five kids. You were watching. We were on vacation. What am I doing? No, no, no, no, you're doing great. No, no, that's fine. I said, come on, Dad. I had to really push him. And he said, you praise the kids too much. I'm like, oh. He goes, you know. And Oscar takes his plate off the table and puts in the dishwasher and thank him for that. That's expected. And in that minute, I was like, oh, yeah, all of us and my siblings have this sort of need to do more, to please. And, you know, but sometimes I go, well, it sort of worked. You know, in some way it works. But what is that balance? I don't. For my dad, I do praise him too much because I. I guess I want to focus them on. I like following, like, the Seth Godin. Like, I read a lot of Seth, and I know you like Seth. That way of following your fear, the thing that scares you, that there's some illumination in that and having something to say and doing it for other people. And then that way it takes care of a lot of stuff. So there is a responsibility for every single person on the planet to be part of this community. And I try to say that to kids, like, what? What are you offering? What is it you've got to offer? And it's. Even if it's something you love, there's going to be days you don't want to do it. But I want them to do it from a place exactly as you say, of self love. Ava just went off today to do a Pre act test. I texted her this morning. I was mad with myself. I didn't say it to her before she left. And I wrote this. Have fun today. No test is a reflection of you, who you really are. Just be curious and open. Love you. I'm sure she was rolling her eyes when she read it, right? But I guess that's what I'm trying to be curious. I try to say to her when she goes to school. I was like, ask challenging questions today. And she's like, roll her eyes. I'm like, don't just do the good girl. I got my grade and then that. I said, the world doesn't need those people. I was one of those. I was school captain of my school and this and I that. I was doing my homework and blah, blah, blah. But that's not what the world needs. And the world needs people who are going to do what they love. Know when enough is enough. More is not always better in terms of consuming or just achievement. Be disciplined about doing less. All those things are what I'm trying to teach them.

Speaking of kids, how much have your kids struggled with being the son of famous people? You told me a story once that I thought was very touching about how devastated Oscar was when he learned, obviously retrospectively, that John Lennon had been killed. And I mean, first of all, it's just amazing to me how much that troubled him.

It really troubled him. I would say he was 8 or 9 when he found it out. And there were tears for, I'm going to say on and off for three months, three to six months. There was a period where I genuinely said to Deb, I've got to step away. I think I've got to step away. It's too much for him because he was genuinely frightened. We would go to Central park all the time. We would go through Strawberry, past the John Lennon memorial. And he just saw me as a famous person. And I did try to explain to him that there's different levels of fame. There is a mania with some people, Tiger at his height or Bieber or. That's never really happened to me and for a number of reasons, mainly because I'm just not as famous as like John Lennon and the Beatles, that was a whole different thing. But to a nine year old, for him, he just found it really difficult. He hated the paparazzi, he hated the attention. When he was a little kid, like I remember he was about 2, people would come up to us at a table, right? They want to talk to me. And you know, when people, they want to Talk to you. So what they do is they come up and go, oh, hi to the kid. Hey, look at you. You look so cute. And it's like, there's a way in, right? And people would come up and Oscar would just go. He would look at him go, like. And I thought, that's the most honest response at this table right now. Right? I just wanted to be. But of course, you know, I. I never want to be like that with people. And sometimes people overstep. They don't mean to. They don't know. Or sometimes as kids. But for Oscar, it was always brutal. And so it was on and off. And when he was a little older, it never really left, in a way, till reason. Till he was like, 16. He would. If I said, oscar, I need you to. Why haven't you. Why have you cleaned your room? You got to clean your room, you know, why haven't you cleaned your room? He goes, well, why would I listen to you when you won't listen to me? And I would say, what do you mean? He goes, well, you won't stop acting, so why am I going to clean the room? You know how that important is to me. And so we really sat down and had a conversation about it. I said. I said, you do understand. Like, I didn't ever expect to be famous. Like, no one ever does, I don't think. None. None of the actors I know you got a drama school of all years, and you hope you could pay your rent, and if you don't, you'll go and do something else. But it's a really rare thing, let alone be really sort of successful. That's just a crazy thing that just sort of happened. And I said. He said, well, why don't you just do theater? Like when you were just doing theater before the movie thing, I understood people in the theater were. You know, they would clap you, and then you would have your normal life. I said, you know, well, I really love the films as well, and that's right. I said to him, but I don't. It's not what I set out to do. I didn't set out to be famous. I'm not trying to hurt you, you know, I understand. I want to be there for you. And he looked me straight in the face and he said, so if you had your time again, would you do it differently? I was like, wow. I said, that's a really confronting question. If I knew what was coming and how it might impact you, I said, I would find it really difficult. I might have done things in A different way. But I said, I probably honestly still do it, Oscar, and not for the fame or the money, but because the people I get to work with. I pinch myself every day. Like, I'm having the most amazing time. I'm working with incredible people. So imagine there's something you love to do, and all of a sudden you get to work with other people who you just can't believe every single day. I said, it's so fulfilling to me. But I remember thinking, that's a really brilliant question for a 12, 13 year old to ask. It was a really difficult time. And I remember there was a period where I thought if I was truly loving and I should just drop it for whatever reason, it's just too much for him to bear. Avery, on the other hand, has always been really balanced about it. I'll tell you a funny story about that. We arrived in Australia after a 24 hour flight from New York. And once we got through customs, there were a lot of photographers. So the way we would handle that is I would separate myself, the family would go ahead, it would, you know, split them up, and ultimately they needed me in the photograph, so. And in Australia in particular, the kids are famous because Deb is very famous too. So they want the family shot. So I would just separate myself. And Ava just came back and started to walk with me. I said, oh, babe, you don't have to do that. It's fine. She goes, it's okay. I said, we're walking along and they're taking photos of us and flash, flash, flash, flash. People looking, people look. I said, dad, what about for you? Like, by the way, Ava's just so people understand. She's 15 now, so she would have been 10 or 11 at the time. I said, how is this for you? Like, would you prefer that I was just an accountant like my dad and you never had to go through this? And she said that we just got off a first class flight on Qantas from New York to Sydney. I can put up with this for like 40 seconds. And I thought, you know, let's. She's just sort of super, super balanced about it and kind of gets it. She's just always seen the. All right, there's a bit of a trade off here. But no, I'd still prefer to fly first class for 24 hours and put up with two minutes here, you know, and then I've been lucky in the paparazzi thing just to follow up. Now I remember we came straight from the airport. I was super worried, and we were going down there to shoot a movie. So I was there for 12 months. They all followed us. I'd rented a place, and I'm like, oh, they know where I live. Of course they're going to know where I. Where I was renting. And we pulled in, and I could see behind me, 15 photographers. And Oscar was dark. He was dark. And I thought, oh, no, we're back home. We've got a year here with my family, with his cousins, with everything. So I just said, everyone, you guys go inside. And I said, I'm going to unpack. But I wasn't going to unpack. I went out of the garage and I went out onto the street. And I started walking towards him. And you could see the cameras come up. Like, oh, this is great. He's gonna put the bird.

He's gonna confront us. Yeah, he's gonna.

This is like gold for them. That's what they want, right? And I. One guy, Shane, I said, hey, Shane. And he puts his camera. He's sort of like the most senior guy. I said, can I have a word? He comes over. They all put their cameras down. They didn't quite know. I said, dude, we're here for a year. I said, you could see the airport. Like, this really, really bothers my son, which means it really, really bothers Deb and I. And I don't want to get in a situation where we're hiding inside a house in Australia. And I said, so. But I understand you need something, so what do you need? And he goes, we need you at the beach with your shirt off. I said, I'll see you there, Bondi, tomorrow morning, 8:15. So I literally had just made a deal. I felt I made a deal with the devil. But I thought in the second, I thought, okay, this is the lesser of two evils, I guess. So I went down the next day and I trained with my mate Mike. And I said, mike, I'm sorry, but I have a feeling there's going to be some photographers when we get into the. And he was hilarious. He goes, awesome. Because I've never looked better. Like, he's the same age as me, completely ripped. And so he's like, bring it on. So we go out there. It was the most uncomfortable 20 minutes of my life because there were 15 of them, and they were in the water up to their waist. Like, it wasn't like, we're on the beach. I'd given them this permission, and I was like, what have I done? What have I done? This is so embarrassing. So I have a swim I catch a couple waves, I come back in. Shane just nods at me and I said, we're good. And he goes, we're good, to their word. Never saw him again for 12 months. Not with my family. Like they would take me occasionally, like if I was somewhere. I get that. That's fine. I can live with that. So that was my little deal with the devil, which worked out well. There was, I thought, some honor amongst them and I was pretty impressed that they kept that for 12 months and it would end up being a great year for us.

There's so many things I want to pull on that one of them is just the amount of energy it takes to perform and then the amount of energy it takes to not perform. So to me, the stage and the screen are very different and I want to explore them both in separate ways. But let's go back to the greatest showman, the stage production. So when you came and stayed with us in San Diego, I guess that was two years ago, right?

Yeah.

When you and Irv came and one of the things that amazed me was the whole purpose of having you come and spend a day and a night with us was to give you a break. It was like, I don't know how many weeks or months you were into that, but it was a grueling schedule. It was hotel, hotel, hotel, hotel. Deb and the kids are back home. It's just you and Irv. It's like you can't even leave your room, you're having meals in your room. I mean, it just struck me as a very difficult experience. And we were like, look, we want you to have a totally normal day where we're going to work out in the gym, we're going to do nothing, we're going to have a home cooked meal and blah, blah, blah, blah. But it just happened that my sister in law and her husband are in town, the kids are in town, so there's all of my kids, all of their kids, everybody's there and they worship you like no other because they don't understand you're not the greatest showman. They actually think you worship were the greatest showman.

Right.

And what amazed me is actually that's.

A movie I should have mentioned too, and ones I'm proud of. I don't know why I didn't.

I couldn't believe. Because our thinking was, okay, Hugh, let's just make this. We're going to go to the gym, go have a shower, go relax, we'll call you when dinner is ready. But you couldn't wait to jump in the pool with the kids. You played with them for an hour and a half while I got dinner ready. And I just remember thinking, hugh, this is your chance to turn it off. You don't have to perform here. You don't have to please these kids. This is your window to not please anybody, but just relax. And yet I was amazed at how much. First of all, it didn't look like it was an obligation to you. You genuinely looked like you were having fun. But I didn't know where the energy came from. That's really my question. Where does that energy come from?

It did surprise me because I was very tired. It's a game of exhaustion. I guess the same for, like, during the NBA season. You're traveling and this. And it's. It's managing recovery. And, like, you. You're really just doing your best. And it's a bit monk like. And when you get a day off, because that was a day off for me. It was a rare thing to be in the city without traveling and a day off. You think, okay, this is the time to recharge. And when I was there, we jumped in the pool. Like, look, if I. I definitely would have jumped in the pool with the kids. I love your kids. And the kids were there, and I would have done it for five minutes, you know what I mean? If. And done enough to, you know, okay, the kids have spent time with me. They got to know me a little bit. It just was energizing. It was somehow genuinely fun. First of all, the kids forgot within 5 minutes, I was the greatest showman. We were just playing a game. They got competitive. The event. I sort of felt like a kid again. And you realize sometimes, particularly in a creative field, actually, I don't know if it's creative or not. You've got to go outside your zone a little bit, and it becomes an inspiration. I. I learned this when I was a drama school. Like, my teacher goes, if you're an actor and you don't say yes when someone offers you a ticket to the ballet, then you're not a real actor. And I'll be like, the ballet, but I'm interacting. He goes, it's another creative art form. You've got to. You don't know where the inspiration is going to come from. If you're just going to listen to the songs that you think you like and go to the movies that you like, you're just going to stay in that lane as an actor. Like, you need to mix it up, right? So I didn't Mean to do it. But in a way you could see it was like, I have been on my own. Like, I've been with the group. And then you get to the stage and you've got 20,000 people and you're leading the group and tell you when you get home, you just want to sleep and read. And I was just missing my kids, my family, just being silly and playing in the afternoon where you don't care about whether you're overusing your voice or, you know. And again, great food, wine. Those berries I remember. Awesome. What was it that you put in? Was it Monk? What was it you brought?

The wine, though. That was the finest. That was.

That was the.

That was a Penrose, right?

It was a Penfolds Grange.

A Penfold. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Penfolds Grange, which I'm happy to give him a plug because it's probably one of the finest wines Australia has produced.

I have seen since. Been procuring it not to the level of the bottle you bought. That was one of the finest. Yeah, Penfolds. That's right.

But anyway, so that was that. It was a joy. It was a real joy. And by the way, Irv has been my. Like, when I first knocked on the door to Deb's house, Irv was over there helping a change of clocks. Like, Irv's known Deb since they were 11, and it's become one of my closest friends. And he ended up working with me and still does occasionally on things. But we both went away that night, just going. I didn't realize how much I needed that. With good friends, family barbecue, like a Sunday afternoon, just where you let loose, you have a couple of beers, a glass of wine, good conversation. And it was totally energizing.

Yeah, it was great. And of course, the next night when we came to the show, I simply couldn't have imagined what that was going to be like because I had deliberately not read any reviews also. So I knew nothing about this. And it sounds funny, but going into it, I literally assumed it was going to be a stage version of the movie, not realizing that it was actually more of a stage version of your life, which included the movie. And the opening tribute to your family immediately makes that clear. Right. And it's so moving. It's so touching that at the end, I don't know if you remember the email I sent you that night when we got home, but, I mean, I was really kind of. It was very hard for me to all take in and how gracious you are with an audience and how Much energy you give. And that's the part that, again, of all the things that an actor can do, it's that ability to be on stage night after night and put out that type of a performance. Because how many times did you do the greatest showman on stage? Performance wise, 92. Right. So on average, let's assume that each person is only seeing it once. So they're not going to go to multiple shows. So you can largely figure out how many people have seen that. But for each of them, it's the only time they see it. So you're the type of person who goes out there, and every night you're making sure that they see the best version possible. You have to do that 92 times. Very few people live in a world where that's the case. I mean, I think great athletes will often say that, right? Muhammad Ali used to say that all the time. You may never see me fight again. I want to make sure every person knows on this night they got to see the best, best version of Muhammad Ali. I don't know where that energy comes from, actually, because there's a physical piece to it that I can sort of understand. Like, you could be well enough conditioned, and obviously you are, but there's actually an emotional piece to that that I can't relate to.

Well, first of all, thanks for saying those nice things. And I think for me, the stage in particular, whether it's an arena or the theater, is as close to the stage spiritual. I think my job gets. I've had moments on a soundstage where you're filming something and it feels incredibly intimate and powerful and things are happening, but you rarely get that feeling of, this is a sacred space. I get it almost all the time. And I make sure that I do everything I can every night to do that. So there's a few things. For example, triggers for me, I never really wear aftershave. Right? I just, you know, occasionally I do it, but I usually do it on a special occasion. So for me, I always wear aftershave when I'm on stage because just that smell makes me go, oh, oh. Special night tonight. This. It's a visceral thing to waiting in the wings before. I don't look through the thing. I want to hear that sound of the audience gathering. I actually had an idea, which I got talked out of on that tour, of warming up on stage as people were entering. I'm like, why do we have to have this feeling of, oh, we're waiting for Hugh and we're in and we're waiting and the show's and the lights go out and there he is. I was like, everyone does that. What if they saw me on my foam roller and I'm out there and I just say, hey, what if it was more like in my living room and then we're still going to do the big opening and the lights are going to go out, but what if we just dropped all this pretense of, oh, my God, you came to see, you know, like. Anyway, I got talked out of that, I think for security reasons.

In the end, would you get nervous before each show?

Yeah, yeah. Which, you know, you mentally just go into excitement. But there's definitely a buzz. There always is. For me, and it comes out of that. I want this to be a special night. And for me, when I go to the theater or to a show, like, I've been to lots of concerts and doesn't matter how good they sound or how big the production is, if I feel like this is the exact show they did in Portland, Oregon, like, I'm pretty sure this is exact same show, except, hello, Melbourne. Hello, Sydney. That's it. I just go, oh, we're just sort of churning out the same show. It just feels. Doesn't feel soul for me. I always want an audience member to go, I was there on the night when, you know, that feeling of something happened that night. Because it is a special thing and I know what it takes. And I love going to the. The reason I stand in the wings is because when I'm sitting in my seat, I'm reading my playbill and I hear the hubbub and I literally get tingle. Like, I'm so excited. I've always been like that since I was a kid. So clearly is where I'm meant to be. But so it isn't. It certainly is important to me. And I'm actually an introvert by nature, not an extrovert. But somehow I can feel on a stage, even like in San Diego that night, more relaxed. I would dare say my heartbeat is even lower apart from when I'm dancing than when I'm just on stage. I can feel very calm and myself. I don't know where that comes from. I think that's. I don't know where that comes from. Maybe that's born not made, but I certainly had that feeling.

Did you have to train yourself to do that? Because to be an introvert and yet to be able to be so energized by that type of an experience seems counterintuitive to me.

Yeah. Well, the reason I got into acting. Why I wanted to do it. I told you, I was brought up in a very religious sort of upbringing. I certainly that idea that there is a spiritual element to life, there is a higher purpose to life through everything you do. The activity in the end is not as important as fulfilling that. And my definition of that is far broader than what it was growing up. I certainly don't believe there is a literal heaven and hell, and only those people who believe this set of beliefs are going to the heaven, everyone else. But that's what I was told growing up. I don't believe that. I don't think it's as linear in any way. But I wanted to get into acting for that Socrates and idea of know thyself, like in, you know, on the Delphic oracle, there's just two words, know thyself. That's it. Understand who you are, why you're here. And acting for me was the way to do that. For you, it was medicine like. And that was your path you're meant to be, clearly meant to be on. Right. For me it was. Was acting. So I was always more interested in that. So I can tell you now, the most spiritual moments I've had in my life have all been on stage, where it's like the moment in a movie, everything stops and things are floating. And that feeling of timelessness where things can be happening, you can be singing a song, but somehow you can be acting. You feel a connection with 2,000 strangers, 20,000 strangers. We're just all sudden together. That feeling of consciousness, whatever that is, I've only, I've had those always on stage in a different way. Obviously with family and close friends you can get that moment, but that's certain. Certainly that out of body experience that people talk about, that spiritual experience for me has only ever happened on stage. And that's why I always go back to it. That's always my goal. Why I was embarrassed by that line in that review. He just wants you to love him, Loving you, loving him. I'm like, no, no, that's not why I'm trying. Is that, geez, okay, that's not my higher self, that's my lower self. If it's true, I really want something deeper. And so that's why, weirdly on stage, and I don't think I've learned it. I think that's somehow a mass of everything I'm trying to do and be in this world of feeling completely at home and connected on stage. It's where I have that spiritual meaning, I guess.

Is it different if Deb, Oscar, and Ava are in the crowd?

Yes. Yes and no. I really am trying to be. It's actually wonderful to me. Like when you guys were there in San Diego, I really love it because I know in a way that you were seeing a different side to me and a real side of me. If you ever see me on stage and I walk out and I do this, I did it at the Oscars. I did it everything. So my. Everything I do first off is I try to find their eyes. Now my kids look down because they're just terrified I'm gonna call them out or put a spotlight on them. I always do this to Deb because this is where the. One of the greatest gifts for someone who is sensitive to have a marriage with someone where you know that no matter what happens, if I completely suck, if I die, if the career is over, if whatever happens is over, she's there for me no matter what. So when we were together that. That night of Sunset Boulevard, she always says it was a real. We were already married. But she said, you could feel I'd become a star that night. Like, there was hubbub and talk, and she's there at interval and then after. And all I remember is coming backstage. It was excitement. It was a big thing for me. Big. My big lead role, I guess, in a way. And I said, I just need to see Deb. I said, a bunch of people came backstage. I said, I just want to see Deb first. And I remember I just held her and I said, no matter what happens, you're the most important thing to me, like anything else. And so now, to sort of remind myself of that, I always put my hand over my heart just as a signal to her to say, you're the most important thing to me. And it gives. It just really calms me down. So in that way, it's different. At the Oscars, it really helped because when you go out, and this is when I was hosting the Oscars, if you see Meryl Streep, Brad Pitt, Angela, like, they were front row, front street rows, just every star that ever lived who are all looking at you like, what were you thinking, man? Why did you say yes to this? Just to see Dev? It somehow puts that perfectionist in me, just quietens it down. Everything's okay. No matter what happens, everything's going to be okay. I feel like you've asked me a bunch of questions. I think it's my turn. Can I ask you a real tough one? Can I ask you a tough one?

Sure.

And I actually don't ask this of anyone, but I remember I was very moved, you asking or just explaining in your book? And you said it on this, the eulogy qualities as opposed to resume qualities. And of course, as a doctor, you've seen a lot of death. You've experienced it. You. I'm sure you have patients who are facing it or faced it. Are you scared of death yourself?

So it's really funny. You haven't read the epilogue of my book, which I only wrote maybe a couple months ago. And in the epilogue, I actually answer this question for the first time.

Oh, wow.

Because I don't think I understood it until very recently. I would say I had always been afraid of death, not afraid of dying. And they're obviously different. Right. Dying is the mechanical process of going away. I think I probably have the same level of trepidation about that. There's the uncertainty, am I going to die in a car accident? Am I going to die this way or that way? But that's actually a far distant concern to me. I think my greatest fear was my fear of not being here. And I think that fear took a dramatic step forward when I became a father. And I think the reason for that is the constant tension between what I'm doing and what I should be doing. And therefore, I think my initial obsession with this topic of longevity, which started about 10 years ago in some ways, although I didn't know it at the time, was really trying to delay this thing. I didn't want as much as possible, which was leaving this planet without having done what I was supposed to do, because deep down I kind of knew I was doing a bad job of doing it, which was not being a good enough dad, not being a good enough husband, not being a good enough fill in the blank. So I think that through everything that I've gone through in the last year, and so now I've got more confidence in the stuff that I'm doing that I actually don't feel afraid of dying in the way I used to.

Right. You can answer those questions in the affirmative. Like, I'm a good dad, a good husband.

Yep, exactly.

Yeah, that's pretty awesome. That's a great place to be. I mean, I think if I was just talking to a mate yesterday about that, the idea of coming to terms with, you know, I've done enough, like, there's more I want to do, but we've done enough takes a huge weight off. I think, for people like us, that idea of having to do more.

So let's talk about this in the context of the Fountain, right? Which is, I think, one of the most amazing movies. I mean, obviously you and I are both just such fans of Darren, and I think he's literally just one of the most gifted people imaginable. And what I like about that movie. Oh, there's so many things I like about it is that it's open to so many interpretations. And I actually want to hear yours because I'll share with you mine and I've never heard Darren's. I don't know if Darren's actually spoken about what he intended it to be. He has. Has he? Before you tell me, I want to tell you what I think. But obviously the theme of this movie is immortality, right? This is a big part of it. How did you get inside that character of Tomas, Tom, Tommy? How did that challenge you? And how did it make you think about your own mortality, if at all?

Hugely. It was a. So 17 years ago now. Darren came to see me, dude, the Boy from Oz, a musical. I was playing Peter Allen. And he just. He said, I've got a script for you. And I read the script and I was like that. I read it that night because I was such a huge fan. I thought, I don't fully understand this, but I think this is about the meaning of life. Like, this is. This is as close as I've read to. This is what it's all about. And I just said, I'd love to do it. We spent a year working on it before we rolled one foot of film. I did a year of tai chi. We did yoga. I had to be in. There's a stuff where I'm floating in space. Took me a year to get my hips, you know, flexible enough to be able to do the lotus position. And also just understanding the history of it and the mentality of it and the obsession of a man who I'm now literally, as I'm speaking it, I'm seeing some of the parallels with your chapter in your book, right? His love for his wife, who is sick and dying, and he's raised to heal her and cure death and his obsession with that and the absolute need to cure death. When I spent a lot of time talking to doctors, there's a lot of doctors who believe that's in some ways theoretically possible, that we could cure every disease, which is interesting. Probably another question I want to ask you, but I had to go further inside, deeper into my own emotional reservoirs journey. And in many ways, it was the most lost I've ever got in A character. I'm not an obsessive person by nature. I'm quite liberal. I'm balanced. Even when I was partying with my mates, I'd be the guy at three in the morning going, you know, guys, diminishing returns from here. I'm out. And they'd all be dead. I'll be there till midday the next day. And I was just naturally. That's. That was my thing. Or maybe I was too scared to kind of just fully go down the rabbit hole, but. And I'm so glad you called that out, Darren, because he also became a great friend. And this was actually in film, the closest I got to a spiritual experience where the rolling of camera and stopping of camera just to blur. And that feeling of living, particularly when I was in the spaceship in that bubble, there were moments where it touched on emotions for me, where an hour later I was still crying like, everyone's gone to lunch, and I'm wrapped with sobs. Like it was touching on things. And that was totally because of Darren and his belief in the sacredness of a creative space. He's just a pure artist. And funnily enough, all that stuff, you know, that Tim was talking about, the ayahuasca and all of that, which I'm not sure how much I should say, but this sort of came out a lot of that. But this is way back when, you know, Darren's always been a searcher in the. In consciousness, the broader sense of consciousness, meaning, of life, the eternal immortality. And he's not afraid to ask those questions. I feel like I've gone off track a little bit. Like the fountain, like I feel. But it was certainly the most. It was the only time I came home from a movie where Deb said, it took you three or four days to get your feet back on the ground. It took me a while to get grounded again. And I remember, by the way, with Darren, I've never really had this before, but I formed such a creative bond with him that there was all that time in the spaceship where I was on my own. And imagining in this way, he's gone on to live, you know, forever. Darren would be right next to the camera. The camera's here, and he would just be right there. And I would ask for him. So I said, darren, can I have you close? And just him coming would open, literally rip my heart open. He just created a feeling on space, in the space that was sacred. And in terms of what it's about, I used to ask him all the time, like, dude, can you explain this? And he goes, what do you think? I said, well, I think X, Y, Z. And he goes, yeah. I said, right, but what's it about? He goes, no, not going to tell you. Like, it doesn't matter. It's whatever it is for you as it is for the audience. I go, yeah, I got it. But come on. So I remember I kind of. I would bug him about it all the time. And when we went on the. We'd be at press conferences and a panel and he get asked a question and he would start explaining the movie. And I'd be like, looking down, I'm like, that's what that was about. I was completely wrong. Like, I'm literally. I'm on the complete wrong page there. And he would look down at me and just sort of smile at me, like, it's okay because it was true for you. It is true. I actually don't. I wish I could remember exactly, but I had the whole timeline. Like, everyone asks, which is the present.

Yeah. And I don't know why. For me, it resonates that the present is the present. That's the way it spoke to me, was that the present was the present and that the past and the future were sort of metaphors and were spaces of sort of emotional travel. But that what was really happening between Tommy and Isobel was actually her physically dying in front of him and him not being able to save her and him struggling with this loss of control and this fact that we're mortal. I could be entirely wrong.

That's what I thought. That's what I thought. And I think from memory, Darren at the press conference was saying, the future is the present, but I'm actually not very confident about it. I have to. I have to.

We're going to. We'll bug him. Well, now what? Now I'll just bug him. Yeah.

He's one of the most genius filmmakers. And by the way, so much fun. Like, he is really, really fun and a good, funny guy. Super smart, super interesting. And, yeah, I love him. We catch up all the time now. And it's so bizarre that I've forgotten again what the whole meaning is. But to me, I sort of love the mystery of that movie. Like the. It's sort of the mystery of life. It is whatever you. Whatever we want to believe it to be. It is. Actually, this is a question I want to ask you. Manifestation, right? You hear all about it. Are you buying into it? Do you believe it?

I don't know. I mean, I think I'm still, in many ways, sort of Grounded to my science, my reality. What about you?

I'm a recent convert to it.

You're evolving. Yeah.

My dad was always about it, always this. And in my head, I'm like, it just sounds nice. And I get the placebo effect. If you believe something is probably going to come true, and certainly with fears like, don't hit the tree. Don't hit the tree. Oh, my God, the tree. Right. If you're thinking about obsessive, you're heading that way. But I used to think, no. And actually my life is a good example. I used to say. I used to say to people, like, if I had manifested when I was 23, I wouldn't have thought up half the stuff that I've done or has happened to me, not even a quarter of it. I would have had far less sort of scope to imagine what could be. So maybe I would have limited my life if that was true, you know, so that's not what it's about. So I was introduced to it. Sometimes I play it play games. Like Dev and I play backgammon. We play backgammon a lot. Like, probably 15, 20 games a day. We're in the 400amonth. Yeah. It's like our little backgammon is such a great game because it's five minutes. Like, chess is like a commitment. It's minimum 30 to an hour. You just don't really often find that time. Right. Backgammon, you can just go play one game, three games. Anyway, when I was first introduced to the idea, I wanted to believe it because I was hearing it from a life coach that I still see to this day. And I thought, you know what? I'm going to test this out. I'm going to test this out on back him. And it worked. It literally worked. This whole. I was losing by. For the month. There was no way I was going to win. I was like, all right, this doesn't make any sense that I'm going to win this month. I have to win, like 20 games to three or something like that to win another. Okay, I'm in practice. Close my eyes, believe it, feel it, imagine it. Okay. Imagine your senses around that feeling when the dice is rolling, it's a double six. The fact that the frustration of Deb that I'm winning, winning, winning. Could it be? And I won. And I'm like, I almost didn't want to test it again because I was. Anyway, I'm a recent convert, but I imagine, like, even if you publicly said, yeah, I'm kind of into it, you would probably get completely destroyed. You would be professionally destroyed. But anyway, I'm just sort of. That's why it's a very unfair question. But I do find it fascinating and maybe for me goes back to my biblical religious sort of upbringing. All that stuff in the Bible of you can move mountains and if you believe it, if you know what is prayer, what is prayer to imagination. Then you hear Coach K, that famous letter to self. Have you heard that? Coach K's letter to self? No, I think it was on CBS Sunday Morning. He used to do this thing where letter to myself. So you write a letter to your 8 year old self, listen to Coach K's it is so.

And Coach K would have all the players do it or.

No, he did it. He did, he did it for himself. A letter to himself when he was in. You can Google it.

No, when he was a letter to his 8 year old self and he.

Talked about, he didn't say the word manifestation but the power of imagination. He said, if there's one thing I could tell you, all those hours spent imagining that you're hitting the game time buzzer when you're really on your driveway out the back and you're going past six defenders and there you are, lay up and you win the championship and he goes, those hours you spend are preparing you for the future in ways you do not yet understand.

To me that's very plausible, right? I think that that's entirely plausible because I think that is rehearsing a set of skills and, and literally myelinating a set of channels in the body that do come into play. Where I can't come up with a plausible explanation is where it purely impacts randomness. That's out of your hands. In other words, I can absolutely see how it can actually material alter the course of something you have control over. But I don't understand the mechanism by which it would go otherwise. Which of course is exactly the great conundrum of how one reconciles religion and science. Right. Religion makes sense to me in the sense of why it exists. It exists because we had no tool to explain the natural universe until 400 years ago. Until the 17th century, there was no tool to codify nature. So if you think about how many thousands of years our species existed without a framework or a tool to explain what we saw. Why is it bright out? Why is it dark? Why are there stars? Why does anything happen? Well, if we don't have a tool that can say, well there are gravitational forces and this planet is rotating this way, well then you have to Come up with something plausible. And that something plausible become stories, and those stories become the basis of religions. And that's why, going back to a question you asked me a long time ago, I think that's why science is very difficult for people to understand. It is not remotely innate. Evolution has not at all prepared us for it. We have not been selected for it. The scientific method is literally only 400 years old. The idea of controlled experiments like this is a fraction of time in evolution's history. Right. This is less than 1, 1000th of 1%. So the likelihood that this would be innate to any of us is preposterous. Right. And I'm sure there are some people for whom these ideas come more naturally than others, but just as there are probably some people for whom acting comes more naturally than others. But the reality of it is, if you want to be good at your craft, you've got to practice it. And similarly, learning to think critically is very difficult and very unnatural. We're wired to pattern recognize and come.

Up with stories, right? Absolutely.

Evolution actually prepared us very well to do that. Because you were rewarded for that evolutionarily.

Right, Right. That's fascinating. What story do you tell your kids?

I actually love to. I love to try to explain science to them.

But if they say, dad, is God real? Yeah.

This is where my wife and I struggle a little bit. I think my wife likes to demure a bit more and say, well, I mean, I think that's. She'll say more like, that's a bit of a mystery. I'll just say, look, there's no evidence of that. Amazingly, I haven't been asked that question directly. But what I like to be able to do is kind of not get dogmatic with them and say, of course not, that's a stupid question, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But instead say, well, it's an unanswerable question. Let's be honest, it's an unanswerable question. So maybe you'll find yourself being an agnostic more than an atheist. But let's think through. How would one even go about answering that question? And how would you test some of the claims that would come along with that question? Yeah, things like that.

Don't you read your social media? Tomorrow there's going to be a lot of evidence just plowing in.

Yeah, exactly. On this thought of immortality. Let's talk a little bit about Logan because how much affection do you have for Logan? He's been such a part of your life for so long. It's like I can't imagine how you must feel for him, because my affection for him is unbelievable.

Right.

He's not even real, and yet I feel an affection for him the way I feel an affection for you. Now explain how that's possible. Right? You're a real person. You are my friend. I have affection for you. Logan is a character, and yet I feel for him. I weep for him. How is that possible?

That's a great question. I think there's something archetypal about the character. I'll go back to my personal connection with it, but it's a very archetypal character. It's been the basis of many. The outsider, the reluctant hero. He's a mixture of where we want to be, while most of us want to be like, that's why he's so cool. And I wish I was Wolverine and marches to the beat of his own drum.

And yet he's imperfect, too, which is imperfect.

So we can relate in that way. I have such a. When you act, when you're acting, you have to fall in love with the character. You've probably heard that before, but you sort of do. You have to. Even if you're playing, you know, Macbeth, if you're playing someone who murders the king because he wants to become king on any level, yeah, this guy's a monster, right? But that's where Shakespeare is brilliant. You get inside his head, his ambition, and you can see it coming. You see his failings, you see his desire. It goes without saying, every character I play, there's some level of love or affection. But with Wolverine, I felt at the beginning like he was teaching me. It's going to sound weird because I'm a people pleaser and he's the opposite. Right. He. He, almost to his own detriment, is an outsider. I'm desperate to be an insider. I will do whatever I need to be to be on the inside. And so playing someone who is the opposite with was so great for me. So kind of relieving and fun. And it was difficult at the front, too. The first, it was, again, not a particularly happy set. I didn't feel comfortable for quite a long time. I didn't feel I really had the.

Support on set in just the very first one.

Just the first one.

Okay. Which was. What year was that?

2,099 we were filming.

Okay.

And I was, you know, someone else was playing the role. Dou. Scott had the part. Then he got injured on another film, and that film went over, so they had to recast. So I was sort of like, I got Cast, they were shooting. It was their third day of shooting and I was coming to do an audition on set. So I was a bit of a last minute thing. I could just feel a bunch of people like, ah, we had the guy, like, who's this guy? And then I just don't think I found my feet for a while. I was trying to. I just came from the theater, we rehearsed let's Work It Out Together. And it just wasn't that. And I felt very much on the outside. And I actually thought I was going to get fired. Pretty reliably felt that I was close to getting fired and the humiliation of that. I remember spending a weekend talking to Deb and I was just bitching to her about this person, that person, you know, this situation. And she actually said to me, she goes, babe, I don't think you've done enough work. I said, what? She goes, I understand why you're angry and probably a bit embarrassed and scared, but it sounds to me like you actually, you haven't done the work, like. And really, I spent all that weekend. And I went, oh, that was. That's another TSN moment for me.

That's right. Yep.

A great loving thing from your wife. Great spouse. To kind of hold your hand. I know, yeah. How terrible. You poor thing. And they shouldn't have done this and more, but you gotta pull your finger out and get to work. So. And I did. And on that Monday morning I went in and I. Instead of trying to make scenes work, I just add like the first scene I did that day, I ad libbed everything. I ad libbed, I rewrote it. I did everything I said. I'm not doing any of the dialogue. I was like. I just sort of took over in a way, like I was forced to because I felt like I was fighting for my life. By the way, that's something I've got. I'm a pretty nice guy, but if you back me into a corner, you're gonna see the wolverine in me. That's definitely. I definitely have that. And it's appeared I've sort of got off track a bit, but I just felt I owed you a bit of an explanation of that first one. So I felt in a way even closer to the character because of that situation. Then it was clear to me I was getting calls from the student. You could just feel when things are turning around, when you're in a position, you're on set and they're not loving what you're doing. It's like you've got A bad smell, people just away. You're not getting invited to the drink after thing and you can just feel there's a jockeying for. Don't get close. So he's a nice guy, that guy Hubert. And then you feel him coming towards you, right. And I'm getting calls. So I knew that things were turning around. I had no idea what would happen to the film at all. The success of it, no one knew that. That was. That was a bit of a shock to everybody, I think. But over the years, my affection just got deeper and deeper. And by the way, people. I remember people saying to me, like, are you doing another one? Like, doesn't get boring. Like, all I wanted to say was like, this character couldn't be further from me. And it's like, imagine you went to the gym, you got yourself into a greater shape and then you didn't go to that gym for two years. And then all of a sudden said, right, we're back in the gym again. And you're like, oh, how do you do it again? Or it was always like that. And I always had this feeling from the first one. I was reading the Japanese saga and the first one, I'm like, this is. This is the story we're going to tell. And I just didn't really have a say in it. And so by the time we got to the last one where I had a say, I was. I was really adamant about what we were going to do. And I'd always felt like I'd let the character down a little bit, if that makes sense. There was more to the character. And I could easily rationalize that in an X Men movie because you're one of the. I mean, he's one of the more popular characters, but you're still one of 12 characters. And on any level, if you're the writer, you've got 120 minutes, you've got 12 characters, you just don't. You may have three scenes for your character if you're the main one.

So prior to Logan, was Origins probably the one that most featured you?

Right. X Men Origins, then the Wolverine.

Yeah, origins was what, 09 origins.

Yeah, yeah.

Which was unbelievable. Like, I mean, I've probably only seen it 51 or 52 times, but I mean, it's, it's.

But I.

It's just unbelievable.

I still then felt frustrated that we hadn't got to the core of who this character. I just really felt there was a deeper story to tell. And there was resistance for sure. Not amongst the key people at Fox to Be honest. You know, the key people were like, let's go for it. But then there was like, if we go R rated, that's probably 100 million we're leaving on the table. Like, you know, we've spent all these years building. And then I said, got to call it Logan, because this is actually about more than human being and super. No, like, we've spent 17 years building a brand. Harley Davidson's Harley Davidson. You don't all sudden call the Harley Davidson, Terry. Like, that's a Harley. So that we need Wolverine on the post. I said, me and Jim, like, no. And again, they went with it. There's a lot of bold steps. And I guess that's why I was saying super proud of it, because I knew it was going to be my last one.

I know that. And it just kills me to hear you say it still. I know that's true. And it upsets me so much.

I didn't want to have any regrets about it. I didn't want to have any sort of. Because then I would be doing another one, probably because I wouldn't lose myself, you know. So I just. Going back to your original question, I just still pinch myself that I got to play such a great role that I feel at peace with it, that I got to do it in nine different movies, that anyone who knows me from anything just knows that if they knew me before I went for the audition for Warren, I wasn't getting the part. Like, it's not. So it was felt in every way. It just felt beyond great.

A TSN moment when Patrick dies. I mean, when professor dies, of course. I mean, first of all, that is to me, one of the most startling scenes in the movie that you just don't expect. And what's so heartbreaking about it is how he doesn't realize it's. He thinks it's Logan. Right. And how deliberate was that?

Very. That was very deliberate. And that's where, like, the writers and Jim Mangold, they just made so many decisions. I was just immediately so proud of when I watched. First of all, Patrick was incredible. That scene prior to him dying, he does that monologue which is admitting his failures and faults and his regrets and live. It's not too late for you. Live your life.

I know.

Like, it's so beautiful. Beautifully written, incredibly beautifully performed.

His affection for your daughter is unbelievable. And he's basically trying to give you this one last chance to make it all right.

I remember sitting next to Patrick Stewart and Jim Mangold, the writer, director, who I've done Three movies with is one of my closest friends in Berlin. So we go to the Berlin Film Festival, which I wrote down on a sheet of papers. This is the type of movie that will premiere in Berlin. Like film, film. This is going to be seen as a film, Not a superhero movie, but a film about a real character. So we're sitting there and that scene, and Jim just directed this. So. Well, I obviously wasn't there because my character's in the grave. Spoiler alert. If you haven't seen. But where she walks up, all the other kids walk off. They've done the funeral. She walks up to the ex, the two sticks that have been put in the thing. She just takes it out, tips it over onto its side into an X. I could get emotional. I could cry now just thinking about it, weeping. It was so. Because in many ways, going back to telling you about my upbringing, that idea of this is how you taught. I was taught when I was a kid, this is religion. And at some point, you have to be become your own man. And Wolverine was always his own man. But actually, he wasn't really an insider in the end. He was an X Men. Like, he really was the epitome of what X Men, I thought, the poetry in that moment. And we didn't know if we were going to kill Wolverine or not when we started it, really. Of course, it was a discussion. And we all said, unless we earn that moment, then it's a stunt. It's just like, oh, it's one. And it'll piss people off if we get it right. It was that feeling that I had in that cinema where just, whoa. And I remember just grabbing Jim's, like, putting my hands on their legs. And I turned to Patrick and he was just crying. And, you know, we realized it was 17 years and such a gift in our business where you go in, you meet people, you become super close. Three months later, see you later. It's a really odd kind of business in that way. Yeah, thanks for asking me that.

I don't know if you remember this, actually. It was at Darren's birthday, Darren's 50th birthday. You and I were sitting next to each other and we were talking about the last scene of Logan, because I had recently rewatched it. And I sheepishly admitted I was like, you're not going to believe this, brother. But the first time I watched this, when Logan says, this is what it feels like, I thought he was talking about death, Right? And then, of course, the second time, I actually understood what he meant. Has anyone else ever said that to you? Has anyone ever.

All the time. All the time. Jim wrote that line. I think it was Jim. I don't think it was Scott, but I think it was. I'm pretty sure it was Jim. When I read that, I was just like. I thought the same thing. Because the ultimate. When I first read it, I thought, oh, the person who's immortal, effectively immortal, and yet unhappy with life like this must speak to you as someone who deals with longevity. What's the point of being around forever if you've got so much pain? A lack of understanding where it comes from, that moment. This is what it feels like in the whole movie. You get a feeling of someone who almost wants it to come. Like, please take me out of my misery. Please, please, please. But then it wasn't until we were doing it and playing the scene. Oh, no, it was before that. When we talked about it, I realized there's such a dual meaning to this. People are going to take it in different ways again. That's what Jim Mangold always says to me. He goes, in a movie, don't tell me one plus one equals two. Like, that's science. Tell me in one. In science, I want to know one plus one equals two. But in art, tell me one plus one equals three. And then spend the movie proving it to me. It's like, make me go. And an end line like that is just such a great example of one plus one equals three. It can work on both things. I think Aronofsky knows that fully. That was a great birthday party, by the way. Wasn't it Darren's birthday party?

I think it's literally the best birthday party I've ever been to in my life.

I'm with you. Can I ask you something? I feel weird. I do want to ask you this. It's more trivial than some of the subjects we've been talking about. But when I was training for Wolverine, at one point, my trainer said, hey, we need to mix it up. I'm going to bring in this guy Scott, who's a professional bodybuilder, natural, but natural bodybuilder. And we're just going to train with him for a week and we might just pick up some tips. So training with him at the gym, this was when I did, actually, it was X Men oranges. I was in Sydney. Someone comes up to him every 10 minutes at the gym and wants advice, right? And no matter what he's doing, and I never forget the first. Like, he was on the lap, pull down, and he's Doing it, by the way, a great thing I learned from him that I've used to this day. I assume to be in his shape, you have to just smash it. He starts super light on everything, like it's fun and builds up. He doesn't do one warm up set, then three, smashing it lightly. So by the time you're doing your third, fourth set, you want to, you actually really want to lift. Your body's got used to it. It was such a great tip. Go light. Like it shouldn't feel like a chore all the time. Like, oh yeah, I can do this. Pull this easy, little more, no problem. And then you just want to go in and rip it. So he's on the lap, pull down. And he could feel someone walking up, asking about to ask him, hey dude, how do I get into shape? Right? His whole life, that's what he is. And without turning he goes, don't eat carbs after 3 in the afternoon. The guy goes, he didn't even ask his question. He walked away. I said, dude, how often do you go literally in tons of work? Someone asked me that. So you, in your job as a longevity doctor must get asked every five seconds, what's the one thing, what's the thing you say on the lat? Pull down. That is the most important thing to change your life? Oh no, he said one more thing. He goes, donate carbs up to three. You'll lose three to five kilos in the first month. That was it. Oh gosh, what's your one thing?

I think there are glib answers to that question and I think there are serious answers to that question. And by glib, I just mean universal, right? So what's the universal truth in longevity? Gosh, if you're willing to exercise nearly every day, you're going to end up in a good place. Exercise is a very potent zero protective agent. That's a very non sexy way to describe exercise. But it's potent, right? So it really has a strong impact. It's diffuse, it acts in many different parts of the body and it's very geroprotective, right? It really slows down aging. And if you want evidence of this, just examine the opposite. Just look at what happens to people when they are sedentary. You look at someone who, especially someone who's our age, who gets laid up in a hospital bed for a week and you look at how far it sets them back. If you're laid up for a week in the hospital, it could take you six months to recover from that physically. So you very quickly understand the potence of exercise. And so I would just say don't underestimate the power of exercise. Which of course then gets into all the technicalities. Well, how much of it should be zone two, how much of it should be zone five, how much strength, how much stability? And of course, the devil's in the details there and then. I think the other thing I would say is something we've been talking about all along, which is don't underestimate the power of relationships, because ultimately they are probably going to play a greater role in the quality of your life than the length of your life. But that matters more. I think the definition of hell would be infinite length and misery. So what can we do to offset that?

I love that you said that about relationships. My best mate started a charity, Gus. He started a charity based on a doco he did on male suicide, and it was incredibly successful. But his idea in this charity, it's called Gotcha for Life with the number four. But it's Gotcha for Life is the idea that never worry alone, like, make sure that you have someone, and hopefully more than one, where you can say anything, everything. And he goes, and by the way, like, I have that in my marriage. You have that in your marriage. A lot of people don't. That's not the sort of contract they have. But as long as you've got someone, a mate that you can. That actually, that loneliness and the inability to unload stuff, you need to. We as humans need to unload it. I think that's really vital from my medical standpoint.

No, look, this is an example of things where my thinking has evolved so much. Right. I think that 10 years ago, when I thought about this, I just didn't find this to be this, meaning the sort of emotional side of this to be a particularly relevant piece of the puzzle. And I've evolved, obviously, as you know, to the complete opposite end of that spectrum. And now it's one of those things that's often the case once you get to the other island, you look back and you think, what was I thinking on that other island? Because you can't appreciate what you didn't know at the time. And I think that there's something about giving to someone else and sacrificing that I think David Foster Wallace spoke about so eloquently in his commencement address. Yeah, this is water. And the way he talks about the myriad petty ways in which we can sacrifice for other people. And that's a big part of what it's about. And I think that any parent recognizes that, that on some days it can be really tough to be a parent, but you're making these sacrifices for your kids. It's not always fun to be a parent, right? It's not always fun to be married. It's not always fun to do all of these things. But I think somehow finding the beauty in those difficult moments when your kid's having a meltdown or when your spouse is really pissed at you and you think it's unjustified, but you bite your tongue. There is value in that, and I think there is joy in that.

Yeah. My brother, my oldest brother Ian, he had four kids. When my. When Oscar was born, he rang me and he said, hey, man, everyone's going to tell you this is the greatest thing that happens, changed your life. You're going to be amazing, and it's the best time of your life. And he goes, here's the truth. Some of that is true, but it's also, you're going to be so tired and angry and frustrated, and a lot of it's going to be really, really annoying at times, and it's going to be inconvenient. He goes, it's okay, man. When those moments happen, just give me a call. Like, it's okay. It was so relieving because of course, you get three hours sleep a night, four hours sleep a night, you're going to be shitty, you know, at times. And of course it is great, too. But parenting is, I tell you, I've learned some. The mirror gets, you know, showing up to you about. Of who you are so quickly as a parent, very nakedly.

So how do you handle aging in your field? Right? You're in a field where you are forever going to be judged by your appearance. I think the field is harsher on your female counterparts than you, for sure.

For sure.

But nevertheless, how do you think about this process and how do you balance? Because you know, you're becoming better and better in your craft and you're getting older. And at some point, I mean, there are, you know, there's the Clint Eastwoods of the world where, I mean, they just seem to never be able. They seem to transition into that age. Like, as they go, totally.

I embrace it. Like, I embrace it. Certainly 95%. You know, sometimes you go, wow. Or you'll see a photo of her, you know, where you looked, and you go, wow, those bags. Wow. Like you look like. And all that. But in general, I embrace it. He'll kill me for saying this, but the guy who did My skin cancer, my basal cell, I had a bunch down on my nose. So every time I go in there over the years to do something on my nose and they're doing corrective surgeries, like, you know, I could just do a little. This bag. It's easy. I could just fix that. Or we could do that. I'm like, no, I did. And, or, or there's. He goes, I could take some fat from somewhere and I can pump it into, into here. And then you won't get that scar, that divot, because when you look from the side. And I said, no. And he goes, are you really going to do it? I said, no, it only goes, it's my walk. And I said, it's my nose. Like, I don't have that. I, I, I kind of have that feeling of embracing it, and I actually enjoy it, if I'm really honest. Part of that I want to stay a movie star. I've got to do that. I've got to be. Is exhausting to me. It feels pointless to me, and I'm happy not to embrace it. You know what I mean? It's like, I've never really loved that side of it, and it's exhausting relating.

We are about one minute away from. I know we have a hard stop because you have an appointment, don't you?

I have a singing lesson, man.

Yeah.

And I. Trust me, I could talk for hours with you. My singing teacher, Liz Kaplan, she's so good. She's impossible to get. Like, it's almost as hard as getting a medical appointment.

We are not going to let this podcast get in the way of what needs to be done.

Almost. Senior lesson. Yeah.

Absolutely not.

Anyway, so just let me finish that. Clint Eastwood. But my real North Star I look to is Newman. Paul Newman.

Can you see the picture of him on my wall? Can you see the picture of Paul Newman back there?

I can't. I can. No, the angle I can't see.

So I've got Richard Feynman, Ayrton Senna, Paul Newman.

Wow, that is a great taste right there. Like, everything. The way he did his career, the Newman zone, the way he just kept his passions going. And he did a lot for the Actors Union behind the scenes. He did a lot on nuclear disarmament behind the scenes. Like, yeah, that's why you do it.

Did you ever get to meet him?

Once, and it was awesome. It was awesome. He was fading at the time. He was super skinny and clearly not well, but, yeah, he's my hero.

Well, you're a hero to many. And you've played many heroes. I thank you so much for your openness. It's a hard thing for an actor to do because you have this contract with us that says as long as we don't know you, we can believe you. Right?

It's true. But as you can tell from me, I want to answer the questions. That's why I'm doing it. So you're right, it's a bit of a tightrope. But you help me walk out better than almost anyone else. And I listen. We're friends, but I also listen to your podcast and I think what you're doing is really helping. It's helped me a lot.

Wow. Thank you for that.

I love you, man. Give my love to the kids. Give my love to Jill. Thanks to the two nicks behind the scenes there doing all the work.

I love you too. And please give my best to Deb and the kids and look forward to seeing you in person, hopefully in the next three months.

Awesome, man.

All right, see you.

You're the best.

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