Dr. Srikumar Rao | The Inner Freedom of Letting Go of Control

Welcome to the Radical responsibility podcast. I'm Dr. Fleet Mahl and I'm excited to guide you on a journey of authentic transformation. In each episode, I'll bring you insights from leading experts to explore trauma recovery, mindfulness practices, positive psychology, and innovative breakthroughs in health, wellness and life optimization. This is a space for real conversations that inspire meaningful change, helping you find alignment with the person you were always meant to be. Let's get started. My name is Dr. Fleet Mall, your co host for this session, and I'm really happy to be here today with Dr. Sri Kumar Rao. Welcome.

My pleasure entirely, Fleet. I'm happy to be here with you.

Well, I've been intrigued ever since we had an initial conversation with your background, both as a professor in various business schools and developing various programs, and now as an executive coach and with the RAO Institute. So kind of an idea of conscious entrepreneurship in the sense that we can be successful entrepreneurs without that having to lead to divorce or having our children end up in therapy and so on, but we can actually do it and have a balanced life. So that's the idea here. Obviously it's not easy. It's a lot of hard work involved in entrepreneurship, but we can do it in such a way and build our companies in such a way that we can also have a good life balance and you know, so that we're actually, we have a real purpose behind doing all this. And I know it's been a big part of your work to help the people you coach in that way. So, you know, you talk about that quantum leap in business, and I think this could have to do with business performance as well as, well, being comes from simply thinking differently about what we do and having maybe an optimal mindset. And today, on the first day of the summit, we're talking about entrepreneurial mastery, the mindset, the basic mindset for entrepreneurial mastery. So what do you mean by mindset as you apply it to entrepreneurship?

By mindset I mean what is the emotional domain that you occupy and what are the questions that you ask? Because the questions that you ask are framed by the way in which you see the world. So one of the things I do is I encourage all of my coaching clients to think differently, to think in terms most of. Many of them have the thought that, you know, there's the ladder of success and you have to climb it rung by rung. And it takes time and it takes effort. And I want them to think in terms of maybe I can leapfrog several of those runs and do it again and again. And that way you actually achieve a quantum leap in your business.

Well, I suppose it's everything. It's about what we're doing as an entrepreneur, our role in the business, which initially, when we're in the startup phase, it can be we're wearing most of the hats, and then hopefully we're steadily replacing ourselves. But nonetheless, probably for some time, we're the primary driver in the business. And there's an inevitable stress that comes with that because business success is not easy. So it would seem like working with stress effectively is. I mean, the idea that there will not be stress is kind of, I think, would be naive. There's going to be stress. So how do we work with stress effectively and maybe even use it to grow as an entrepreneur?

Okay, first of all, when we're talking about stress, let's make a distinction. Many people say, oh, I like stress because stress helps me meet deadlines. It actually enables me to get work done. That's fine. If you're comfortable with it, then it's not really stress at all. I'm talking about the kind of stress that debilitates you, that leaves you feeling overwhelmed and despondent, perhaps even depressed. And I'm saying that you can not only greatly reduce it, but you can actually eliminate it from your life.

So how does one go about eliminating this? I guess you're. So you're making a distinction between some of the pressure, if you will, of business, and some people may thrive with a certain level of pressure and deadlines and call for high performance and so forth. But then you're saying there's an unnecessary level of stress that's actually debilitating. So how does one go about distinguishing between the two? And then how does one go about beginning to eliminate that more debilitating stress from one's life?

The way to go about eliminating the more debilitating part of stress, Fleet, is to understand what really causes you stress. I've asked thousands of people on six continents this question question. And they've come up with a bunch of reasons why they feel stress. And let me boil them down into categories. There's financial. I don't have enough. There's relationship issues, typically with partner or spouse or but could be with children, relatives, shareholders, employees, bosses across the board, their health issues, their career progression issues, and a whole bunch of things like that. And you think, that's why I'm feeling stressed. But in reality, Fleet, that's wrong. If you think about it, there's only one reason you feel stress in your life, and the only reason you feel stress in your life is because you've got a rigid idea that the universe should unfold in a particular manner, and the universe is paying no attention to you and going its own very way. So you feel your business should be growing smoothly, even exponentially, and your customers are leaving you, and you resist it and you resent it. And in that resistance and resentment, you create the stress in your life, and that's the only reason you feel stress in your life.

So you're saying this unnecessary and more debilitating stress is basically caused by unrealistic expectations.

It's caused by. I wouldn't say unrealistic expectations. I'd say rigid expectations. This is how things should be. And in many cases, they are, in fact, unrealistic.

So, you know, growing a business is just full of constant challenges. You know, even if you have a really ideal team, there's still always going to be challenges. There's going to be challenges with breakdowns in technology. There's going to be challenges from the competition. There's going to be challenges when, despite your best efforts at forecasting, the marketplace is just not doing what you hoped it would do. And so it's a very fluid environment. I think part of organizing a business well and systematizing a business is the effort to make it as predictable as possible. But it's never gonna be completely predictable. And so I guess from what I'm hearing you saying, if we would have the mindset that as I wake up every day and, you know, start interacting with my business as an entrepreneur, simply to expect challenges, that there's probably going to be a lot of challenges today. So I'm going to prepare myself and take those as opportunities to excel, to thrive, as opposed to, boy, I hope it all goes well today and nothing goes wrong and everything goes according to my plan today. So that mindset, I think you're suggesting would set us up for stress, because in all likelihood, it's not going to go according to plan.

In our likelihood, it's not going to go according to plan. And the key to maintaining your sine Freud is to accept in advance that things are not going to go according to your plan. The universe is unpredictable, and stress comes because we persist in trying to make this unpredictable thing predictable. And not just predictable, but predictable in the direction we want to go. And most entrepreneurs are very poor at coping with uncertainty. So one of the things that I do with my client first is get them to recognize, accept that it is unpredictable. But more important, welcome the unpredictability as an Opportunity as opposed to something to get depressed and anxious about. That is a learnable skill.

So in a moment I want to ask you about dealing with major setbacks. But even before we go there, still with just the day to day, you know, despite our efforts to build a good team and of course it's up to us to coach our team and train our team and then develop layers of management that can do the same. But it often seems to entrepreneurs, I think that nobody quite cares as much as they do, that people don't seem to kind of. Sometimes it just doesn't seem like people are getting it or people are not following through on the things they're supposed to follow through on. And you know, as an entrepreneur, I think we all do our best to sort of have self discipline and to really show up and deliver ourselves on our commitments and for our team. And so when we find others are not delivering with the same level of commitment or passion, that can be frustrating and create more stress for an entrepreneur, I think completely.

But the way to cope with that is very simple. When let's say you have a trusted right hand employee and you feel that he's falling down on the mark. Now you can look upon that as it's his fault he's falling down on what he's supposed to do, or you can look upon it as, you know, maybe I need to improve my leadership skills so that he behaves more in the way that I think is appropriate. And here's an opportunity for me to become a better leader, a better coach, a better mentor. So how you look at things basically determines A how you feel and B, what you do.

So it sounds like you would align pretty well. The name of my book is Radical Responsibility, which is accepting 100% ownership for each and every circumstance we face day in and day out. So it sounds like you ascribe to that philosophy.

Yes, wouldn't be down as a standard bearer.

So if our team's not performing the way we would like it to perform, that obviously points to the fact that we haven't quite done what we need to do to have the right people and have them coached and trained in the right way and led in the right way. So they will be doing what we need them to do most of the time. So again it comes back to us.

Yes.

So again this, it always comes back to us. So how do we take that level of ownership without converting that into more stress and putting sort of unbearable burdens on ourselves? What if transformation isn't just about thinking differently but feeling differently? Science shows us that true change happens when we align not just our minds, but also the neural networks in our hearts and guts. This Heart Mind connection is the key to deeper healing, resilience and expanded awareness. That's why I created the Heart Mind All Access, membership and community. A space designed to help you rewire your nervous system, cultivate heart intelligence and live with greater clarity and purpose. With over 1000 hours of transformational teachings specifically curated to meet your needs, you'll learn from world renowned meditation teachers, neuroscientists and experts in neuroplasticity, all sharing powerful tools to help you shift your mindset to and heart set, regulate your emotions and unlock your full potential. You'll also gain unlimited access to every summit and course we've ever produced, a treasure trove of Wisdom worth over $10,000 and growing, plus live gatherings and an inspiring global community to support your journey. If you're ready to step into a more heart centered, connected and conscious life, I invite you to join us. Click the link to learn more and subscribe and start your journey today.

When you accept it actually fleet stress goes down. A large part of the stress is you feel, oh, I should have done this and if I had done it then things would have been different. But if you accept in advance the unpredictability of the world, then when something happens, you say, okay, you know, that's what happened. What do I do now? So stress actually goes down when you accept that you are not in control. You have never been in control and you never will be in control. That's the nature of the universe. And if you can truly not just accept it, but embrace it, it gives you a feeling of lightness, a great responsibility drops from your shoulders. And then whatever happens, you look at it and say, ah, this happened. How wonderful. What do I do now?

Wow, that's pretty deep there, Sri Kumar. You know, back to Rao. It's like, I think you know what entrepreneurs want is they want to be in control, right? Asking an entrepreneur to accept the fact that we're not in control, That's a tough pill to swallow.

I know. That's the first pill you have to swallow though, if you're going to live a fulfilled life.

Quite interesting. Well, I hear you said the word acceptance quite a number of times there. So you know what somewhat brings to mind to me? The Serenity Prayer people may be familiar with from 12 subgroups and so forth. The Grammy, the Strange to accept the things I cannot change, to change the things I can and the wisdom know the difference. So it is some humility about what we can change, what we can change. But it is also saying we do need to focus on changing in the things we can. So taking ownership for that and serenity.

Prayer is the wisdom to know the difference.

Yeah, exactly. The wisdom to know the difference. That's the real. That's the real kicker there. Absolutely. So let's talk about. I mean, despite everything we might do to really be good leaders and manage our team well in business, there are going to be setbacks, and it's unpredictability. There's going to be setbacks, and there may be some major setbacks that could really keep us up at night or even put us in thoughts of, you know, whether our business is going to survive or not. So how do we best deal with those kind of setbacks, both in terms of maybe anticipating them and then, if they do happen, manage our own emotional life and our health and wellbeing so that we can show up and help guide our team to meet those challenges?

I would say that is the important part, the emotional makeup that you do. Let me posit to you, Fleet, that in the entire history of mankind, if at any one given point there was more resting on the shoulders of one man, that would be Dwight David Eisenhower. On June 4, 1944, the eve of D Day, the entire fate of the world really depended upon the decisions of one man. Thousands of people were ready to hop on a plane and jump out. Thousands of boats, you know, big ships as well as small boats, were carrying tens of thousands of soldiers to hostile beaches. In a real sense, the fate of the world depended on his decisions. So you would expect him to be very tense, right? On the contrary, he went to bed and slept like a baby. And later on, when he was asked about it, he said, well, I picked the very best meteorologists I had and looked at their forecasts. I selected the best generals I had and put them in charge of the various parts of the invasion. And having done that, there was nothing I could do. So I went to bed. And what most people don't know is that Eisenhower had also prepared a letter of apology in case the invasion failed. He never used that letter, but he had written up in advance and accepted it. He accepted the fact that he was not in control. And I can suggest to you that I do not know of any entrepreneur at any stage who had that weight of responsibility on his or her shoulders.

That's really very interesting. I had a friend that talked about giving talks and presentation and how he overcame his fear of that. And he Would sort of visualize that he had completely blown it and it was a disaster. And he would just feel that, let it go. And then, okay, that could happen. Don't want it to happen, but it could happen. I can deal with it. Okay, now I'm going to give the talk. So it's kind of that similar idea there.

Can I share my speaking experience with you, please?

Yeah, please too.

Okay, so what happened is there was one time when I was giving the speech and this must have been over audience of about 4 or 500 of very senior executives at a very large financial services institution. And I said something and somebody couldn't understand. And they said, could you please repeat that? So I repeated it and they still couldn't understand. And then somebody from the back said, I think he means this. And everybody burst out laughing. And I was so embarrassed I could have sunk into the floor and pulled it after me. Afterwards, I was speaking to someone and I said, oh, they laughed at me. It felt so terrible. They said, so what? Look, you got to understand that these are all people under high pressure. There is a reorganization going away. Many of them may not have a job a month from now. And into their life. You bought a few seconds of complete laughter and joy. Be happy. You could do that. And that completely flipped a switch in my thinking. Instead of thinking about what are they going to think about me, I thought about what is it that I can do to make their life better. And if I mispronounce a word, I'm, you know, from India. I speak pretty good English, but it's not my native language. And particularly in pronunciation, you know, the English spelling is not always the way that it sounds. So if I egregiously mispronounce a word and they all laugh, I bought some laughter into their life. And that's wonderful. And my fear of public speaking completely deserted me.

Wow, that's an amazing shift. So a lot of what you've been discussing already could be talked about under the rubric of emotional intelligence. Daniel Goleman's written a lot on that. And one aspect of the so called intelligence part of emotional intelligence is having a service orientation. So I think that's what you're pointing to there. And I think it's very easy as entrepreneurs because we hold such responsibility and we're, we've envisioned some kind of company and we're building it that there's a tendency to make it all about us. And even though we may have originally had a bigger vision than that. So I think you're referencing again that service orientation, to focus on others, focus on what others are needing, and trust that that's going to lead in a good direction.

Actually, I'd go even further than that, fleet. And this is important. So let's talk about service orientation. I've never met an entrepreneur who doesn't want to deliver it excellent service, you know, knock your socks off service. So ask them, why do you want to deliver excellent service, knock your socks off service. And they look at me as if I was crazy. And I said, humi, tell me. I said, okay, if I deliver great service, my customers will be happy. And if they're happy, they'll buy from me more often and maybe they'll buy more and they'll refer their friends and others to me and my business will prosper. I'll say, yes, that's wonderful, but you've just taken something beautiful and made it a transaction. Don't make life a transaction. So what do you mean, why would I deliver good customer service if there's nothing in it for me? What I tell them is you deliver good customer service, even great customer service, because that is the outward manifestation of the kind of person you are. Don't give a thought to your business increasing because that will happen organically. Don't give heed to it.

You know, I think what you're pointing to there has been written about often by some of the great entrepreneurs and some of the great salespeople and wealth builders. And they often talk about letting go of oneself, getting focused on others, focused on service, focused on contribution. And that success will follow. And it takes a leap of faith to trust that, I think for all of us to really, once we see it working, then maybe our faith in it grows. But initially it seems like success is about driving and pushing and driving and pushing.

And many entrepreneurs do that, and that is the reason why they have ulcers and divorces and pretty miserable experience of life. When they follow what I advocate, you'll find the work is still there, but the feeling of stress, of strain, of struggle, that goes away. You work, but the work itself energizes you. Here's the mistake all of us make lead, or many of us make. We think that the objective of setting a goal and working very hard to achieve it is achieving the goal that's wrong. Your objective of setting a goal and trying your level best to achieve the goal is the learning and growth that happen in you and to you as you try your level best to achieve the goal. If you actually achieve the goal, that's a bonus. Be Immensely grateful if you don't achieve the goal. The learning and growth have already happened, so you're ahead of the game. But the funny thing is when you adopt that orientation, the probability that you'll actually get to the goal you set for yourself increases and just doesn't increase, it increases dramatically.

So one of the things that can keep us on track, aligned with what you're talking about is having a strong sense of meaning and purpose in what we're doing, having a vision and having a. That our work and our company, what we're trying to build, holds a lot of meaning and purpose for us. And you know, some of us may just start businesses to create a livelihood for ourselves and our families, great financial security, even financial freedom, or, you know, just start a business to make money. We get a good business idea and that's fine. I think it can be powerful if we have a bit of a bigger vision that we see how our products and our services can add value to the world and we have some kind of vision like that. But I wonder if you could talk about the importance of maintaining a strong sense of vision, mission, and it's going to give us that sense of meaning and purpose because if we lose that work becomes a drudgery, right?

It's completely essential. And many times persons come up to me and say, professor Rao, how do I find more meaning and purpose in what I do? And the point is, that's asking the wrong question. You know, meaning and purpose are not like seashells. You're walking along the beach and you see the seashell and you pick it up, ah, I found meaning, I found purpose. You don't find meaning and purpose, you create meaning and purpose. And that's one of the things that I really stress. You don't find meaning and purpose. You create meaning and purpose. And you create meaning and purpose by putting yourself completely into whatever action you are taking. Let me elaborate. So what I always say is, if you live in a me centered universe, which the vast majority of us do, you know, we're always looking at, how does this impact me and what can I get out of it? Unless you find a cause which is bigger than you are, a cause which brings a greater good to a greater community, going to live in essentially mediocre existence. So whatever you're doing, put love into it, put joy into it, and bless the person who is going to be receiving the benefits of what you do. Even in simple matters, pay your utility bills with a check, bless the check, and bless the utility and you know, wish it to continue to prosper and bring electricity or whatever to a bigger audience. When you have that mindset and that's what you're putting out to the universe, it's like putting the bread on the waters. The loaves will come back. You just do your part of it. And the funny thing is, when you do your part of it, you find that a feeling of likeness comes into you, but you have to do it consciously because too often when you're in business, we get caught in the nitty gritty of what we're doing and we completely lose sense of the bigger purpose. You have to constantly remind yourself about it. And if you're in a leadership position, you have to constantly remind others about it.

So, yeah, I like what you said, Dr. Rao, about that. We create meaning and purpose. And I think sometimes we may feel like it's just this kind of mysterious thing that comes and goes, and I feel it or I don't feel it. But what you're saying is we actually create it. I do think it helps to have a, maybe a larger vision about what we're doing. But regardless of what the larger or not so large vision, if we're doing our work with a good spirit and, you know, we're doing our best and we're giving our best, that there is meaning created in that, if I'm hearing you correctly, just by Riley entering the work, whatever it is, with a good spirit and a good motivation and giving it our best, that's going to create a sense of meaning and purpose?

Absolutely, yes, it does. Big time.

Yeah. Wonderful. So, you know, it's interesting, I think a lot of people have talked about the relationship between fear and entrepreneurship, you know, and maybe I think there have been many origin stories of very successful entrepreneurs who had life experiences. And they just said, you know, I don't want to go through that.

I want.

Don't want my family to go through that. I don't want to deal with that calm poverty. And there can be a kind of fear driving, you know, to succeed out of the fear of failure or to succeed out of the fear of being impoverished or. And so. And with all the uncertainty that's out there, it does seem like the emotion fear is always going to be part of the equation. So how do we work with fear in a creative way rather than letting fear become debilitating?

The way to work with fear in a constructive way is to recognize. Recognize that the universe is uncertain, results are unpredictable. You have fear because you think, oh, if I can do this and that, then this outcome will be avoided. It's not true. Something unexpected can always happen which will put all of your plans in a cocked hat. You've had it happen in your life many times. It will happen again. In that sense, the pandemic was a wonderful teaching device because it literally showed you how unpredictable things are. My wife and I are tennis fanatics. We've been to the French Open a number of times. We go to the US Open practically every year. Went to the Australian Open a couple of years ago. We'd never been to Wimbledon. So I booked tickets for Wimbledon in 2020. And if you know anything about this, you know, getting good tickets to Wimbledon in the final rounds, it's not an expense, it's a capital investment. And at that time, if you had said, sri Kumara, you're not going to see me build it, I'd have said, yeah, perhaps. But in my head would have been something like, maybe somebody close to me fell ill, so had to cancel my trip. I would never have imagined that the tournament itself would be canceled or that there would be no planes flying between London and New York. It's completely unpredictable. If you accept that in advance and not, you know, superficially, but really completely accept it and embrace it, then you are not afraid because you simply say, whatever happens, I will deal with it as and when it happens, but I'm not going to waste any emotional energy on it now. But you have to school yourself with it rigorously by constantly thinking about that until you're totally comfortable with that idea. It's a learnable skill again, but you have to devote attention and you have to be persistent in your thinking about it.

Yeah, I think there. I'm sure there have been many books written already and. But there's so many stories about how some businesses, in the face of the lockdowns that began with the COVID 19 pandemic in the spring of 2020, many businesses failed and. Or really struggled. And yet some entrepreneurs and business leaders were able to pivot and. And take advantage of the situation and thrive. And it's a. It's a huge business lesson, I think. So, along with the world being complete, uncertain and unpredictable. You've often referenced the quote from Einstein and his belief that the universe is friendly, that on some level it's a benevolent. On some scale, at any rate, it's a friendly, benevolent universe, and that if we take that on as a faith or belief or part of our mindset, it could be beneficial. So tell us what that means and how entrepreneurs might embrace that.

Einstein said the most important question you will ever ask yourself is, is the universe friendly? Now, there are some people who believe that the universe is unfriendly and the sole purpose of the universe is to frustrate you. They're few in numbers. The vast, overwhelming majority of us believe the universe is neither friendly nor unfriendly. It's indifferent. It doesn't know you exist and couldn't care less. So here you are going around doing your thing. There's the universe going around doing its thing. And sometimes it seems to be working with you, sometimes it seems to be working against you. But essentially it's a random process. But what if that was not true? What if the universe was friendly? Well, friends don't shaft friends, do they? Of course not. So if the universe was friendly, why does the universe give you stuff you don't want? Like you want to go on vacations and enjoy yourself, and the universe gives you pandemics and lockdowns. Well, what if the universe didn't give you what you wanted, but it gave you exactly what you needed for your learning and growth? Say you're a small child and you want a tub of ice cream, but the universe, through your parents, gave you fruits and vegetables, and you don't want fruits and vegetables. You want a tub of ice cream, but the universe gives you fruits and vegetables. It isn't until you have a completely different level of maturity and understanding that you can say, thank God I got fruits and vegetables. What if the universe was like that? What if it gives you not necessarily what you wanted, but exactly what you needed for your learning and growth? What if it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out, Leith, that regardless of whether the universe is friendly or not, if you believe the universe is friendly, your experience of life would be immeasurably better. So it's a superior Menti model. So how do you cultivate the model that the universe is friendly? And the answer is very simple. Look for signs that the universe is friendly. And don't just look for them. So celebrate them, Rejoice in them. And most important, write it down. I have all of my coaching clients keep a journal for this specific purpose. Look for signs that the eunuch is friendly, and then you'll find that they're everywhere. I give you an instance. My wife asked me to pick up some items from a supermarket. So I had a couple of items. I picked it up. There was only one checkout lane, and a lady came in front of me. It was a long line, and a lady came in front of me, and she had one of these shopping carts just overflowing with stuff. And I said, oh gosh, it's going to take me forever to get out of here. And then she looked at me and smiled sweetly and said, you only have a couple of items. Why don't you go ahead of me? So I did. And then somebody tapped me on the shoulder and as a cashier said, why don't you come to lane two? I'm opening that up. So I went out. Now, normally things like that happen and you simply say, hey, wonderful. And you forget about it. Don't do that. Recognize it, acknowledge it, celebrate it, and recognize it as a sign of a friendly universe. And when you do that, you'll be surprised at how many they are. Take our by being on this call with you, for example, you reached out to me to be part of another program that you're running and I was intrigued by your background, so said, let's meet. And we did. We had a beautiful conversation and now we're having another beautiful conversation. It's a friendly universe. If you start looking for signs that there is a friendly universe, you'll find them everywhere. And if you make a note of all of those in a short time, you'll see there are so many instances of it being a friendly universe that is it possible, is it just barely possible that it is a friendly universe after all? And then you tip over and your experience of life becomes completely different. That's what Einstein meant when he said the most important question is you? Or ask yourself, is the universe friendly?

Wow, that is so powerful. And it counters something. I think it's very helpful for us all to realize that there's something that psychologists call the negativity bias. That because our human biology is set up for survival and you know, at the most primitive level of our neurophysiology, it's all about survival. And because of that, when we have negative experiences or experiences of risk or threat or any kind of negativity, it goes right in a long term memory and we focus on that. Whereas when we're having positive experiences, it doesn't even go into long term memory unless we hold it in short term memory. Like you're saying, we look for those, we journal about those positive experiences, otherwise they don't even go into long term memory. So our long term memory is mostly full of negativity, which creates this implicit negative bias called the negativity bias. And we spin everything to the negative. So we're looking for all the evidence of an unfriendly universe and you're suggesting we need to do exactly the opposite of that and begin to see the evidence for a friendly universe. And it seems, as I was hearing you describe that whether the universe is actually friendly or not could be a big philosophical discussion we could argue about forever. But if we see it that way and look for the evidence of it, it will become for us the friendly universe.

Right, Exactly. And it would greatly immeasurably improve our experience of life.

You know, there's also famous quote, I think, from the Scottish Himalayan expedition or something, you may have heard it, that has to do with, you know, when we're trying to do something, initially, we may get sort of a pushback from the world or the universe, but once we really demonstrate our commitment, then the universe starts to cooperate with us in all kinds of magical ways. So there does seem to be both a quality of this acceptance and changing our psychology, but also some quality of commitment that entrepreneurs are very familiar with.

Absolutely, that is true. Yeah. You make a commitment and say, I'm going to go this way, and the universe would take ten steps to you.

So we were talking a moment ago about fear and an inevitable part of life, and it's really how we do. Fear can be a very creative energy if we have a good mindset in working with it. As you've been describing, one of the fears that can really predominate for entrepreneurs is the fear of failure. And we may be driven by a fear of failure to not fail, but it can be there in the background, and I think it can erode our quality of life. It can erode our sense of meaning and purpose if we let that fear of failure be too dominant in our thinking and in our emotional life. So I wonder if you could talk about that fear of failure and how it comes up for entrepreneurs and how.

To work with comes up all the time lead. One of the things that I constantly get my coaching clients to come to terms with is, yeah, your business might fail, but that is not your failure. It's like, let's assume that you are playing tennis and you've never played tennis before. So you go on the court and the coach feeds you balls, and you strike at the balls, and some of them hit the net and some of them land on the other side, but beyond the baseline, and you're constantly frustrated. Now, does each of the balls that hit the net or land on the other side, outside the baseline? Did you fail? No, that's part of learning to play tennis. And eventually you'll get your range and the ball will Go over the net and into the other court rather than over the baseline and you learn to play tennis. It's exactly like that. Don't define it as failure, because the moment you define it as failure, you start suffering. So what do you do? Simply label it this happened. No matter what happens. Fleet, you got to understand that suffering doesn't begin when an event happens. You lost your biggest customer. Now you've got plenty of spare capacity when you lost your biggest customer and you say, oh my God, what am I going to do now? How is it going to affect my cash flow? Am I going to go out of business? Will I have to lay off people? This is terrible. And the moment you say this is terrible, at that instant, suffering begins. Now, in your life, have you ever come across a situation, and I'm sure you have, where at the time something happened, you thought, oh my God, this is terrible. But looking back upon it now, you can say it wasn't so terrible after all, or maybe even that was good.

I think that's been the entire story of my life.

Exactly. So if something happened to you in the past that at the time it happened, you thought was terrible, but you can now look back and say it wasn't so terrible, or maybe even it was good. So what you today about to label terrible, is there any possibility that in X years it could have turned out to be fantastic? Just asking yourself that question will move you to a different emotional domain. And if you then ask yourself the next question, what can I proactively do to actually make it good? And you move seamlessly from the realm of despair to the realm of possibility. That's how you combat fear. As an entrepreneur. You never label anything bad, you simply label it. This happened. Now what do I do? Give me an example. You know, there was a. Oh, this wasn't a client of mine, it was a friend of a client of mine. So he was trying very hard to get a particular contract and he didn't get it. And it went to a competitor and he felt the competitor had used somewhat unethical means to get the contract. So he was pissed off, but you know, he went on with it. And about six months down the road the company or he was trying to pitch, which his contract he got, was indicted on massive accounting fraud and went bankrupt, leaving his competitor with a six figure receivable which is never going to collect on. So losing that contract was a wonderful thing that happened to him. You never know what will happen or whether something that happens is, quote, good or bad. So simply say good Thing, bad thing, who knows? And go on saying, what is it that I am going to do? And you find that's a wonderful antidote for fear?

Yeah. There's a wonderful story, I think it's been attributed to several cultures about a man, I think his son broke his leg or something. And the neighbors, oh, that's so tough.

That's often used in my talks. It's about a man and his son. And they were lived in a beautiful valley, they were dirt poor. And the man decided that he was going to become a rich man and he would do so by breeding horses. So he bought a stallion. And he didn't have enough money to buy a stallion, borrowed heavily from the neighbors. And the very day he got the stallion, it kicked the top bar loose from the paddock where he housed it and ran away. And the neighbors came around, said, your stallion ran away, you were going to become a rich man, but your stallion is gone and you still owe us money, you're screwed. And the man shrugged his shoulder and said, good thing, bad thing, who knows? That stallion fell into the group of wild horses and they were close to where the man lived, so he was able to entice them into the paddock which he had repaired. So escape was no longer possible. So all of a sudden he had the stallion back, plus a dozen wild horses, which by the standards of that village made him a wealthy man. And the neighbor said, we thought you were destitute, but fortune has smiled upon you. How wonderful. And they shrugged his shoulders and said, good thing, bad thing, who knows? The man and his son started to break the horses so they could sell them on the market. And one of the horses threw the man's son and stomped on his leg and it broke and it healed crooked. And the neighbors came around saying he was such a fine young lad and now he'll never be able to find a girl to bury him. How far, how sad. And the man said, good thing, bad thing, who knows? That summer, the king of the country declared war on a neighboring country. And press gangs moves through the villages, rounding up all the able bodied young men to serve in the army. But this man's son was spared because he had a crooked leg. And the neighbors came around with tears and they're like, we'll ever see our sons alive again. But you still had your son. How wonderful. And he shrugged his shoulders and said, good thing, bad thing, who knows? And it goes on like that forever, but it's the antidote. Is there something in your life that you thought was bad but you can now see that it's good. The flip side of it is, don't exalt too much because you don't know whether what happened was actually a good thing or a bad thing. So don't exalt, don't lament. Go about doing whatever it is that you are doing. Give your attention. Pour your emotional energy into that.

Well, I love what you said about when something happens, that maybe it's something we're not so thrilled about, but just recognizing, okay, it happened. We waste so much energy, you know, flailing about, you know, that it shouldn't have happened, it can't happen. Well, it did, and there it is. And there's two questions I think we can ask ourselves. You mentioned one of them, which we call a radical responsibility, the magical radical responsibility question, what can I do? And the other might be, what can I learn? So what can I learn from this? And now what can I do? And that's such a different mindset, such a freeing mindset to be in, rather than getting into the victim mindset and the complaining and the flailing about. Yeah, absolutely. A very similar idea that I'm sure you resonate with, you know, the universe. It may be a friendly universe, especially if we learn to look at it that way, but nonetheless, it's going to do what it's going to do. We can spend all our time railing about it and fantasizing about it, or we could just be curious about it. Oh, that's interesting. Now what? Right?

How fascinating, as Ben Zander would say.

Yeah, that's wonderful. You teach A big part of what you do, I think, is you teach entrepreneurs and executives how to do their very challenging jobs and take on big challenges while maintaining inner peace. So what is inner peace and how do we maintain it as entrepreneurs and business leaders who are facing continual challenges and continual uncertainty? I know we've been talking about this already a bit, but I wonder if you could talk specifically about inner peace, kind of, what is it and how do we develop it?

By inner peace, what I mean is the notion that you have the comfort level that you have, that you're exactly where you should be doing exactly what you should be doing. You wouldn't be rather someplace else doing something else, feeling differently. And what I ask people to do is look at their life and say, do you have joy in your life? Are you happy? And many persons are taken aback because this is not a question which is routinely asked. And then they think about it and say, yes, I'm happy. They're setting the bar Very low. Because when you say you're happy, what you really mean is, there's nothing actively bothering me right now. And there are actually some things I would look forward to in life, like maybe a new Netflix thriller or going to dinner with a friend. That's not what I'm calling about. Do you feel your blood singing at the thought of being who you are and doing what you do? Do you float joyously in the air, touching ground every hundred yards or so? Do you come radiantly alive for at least a portion of each day? If the answer is no, why not? Because that is your true nature. That is what you should be. In India, we have a term for that. We call it sachidananda. Existence, knowledge, bliss. Why do you not experience it? And, you know, once people think about it, say, yeah, that sounds wonderful. I want to be there. They're my ideal coaching client. Because the point is, you are already there. You don't have to get it. You can't acquire it. You have to release it. And you release it by recognizing that you are not in control. And it's perfectly okay not being controlled, that the universe is going its very ways. And it is a benevolent universe. And your job is to dance with the universe. Don't try to shape it and force it to come to your path. Dance with it. And as you start dancing with it, you'll find that there's a joy. Okay, your business failed. Wonderful. You're going to start another business. Business. And the learning you have will help you tremendously. And you're always growing, because one of the things I emphasize, pleet, is that the only thing you ever do in life is you work on yourself. And a wonderful, benevolent, friendly universe gives you all kinds of tools. Your partner is a tool. Your children are tools. Your business is a tool. In fact, your business is the Swiss army knife of tools. You're gonna use it as skillfully as you can, but in the process of using it skillfully, what you're really doing is you're working on yourself. And that is the only thing you do in life. It's a radical concept, but once you start embracing it, it's wonderful how it simplifies so much of your life.

I'm glad you. You brought in this wisdom from your culture, the culture of India, which is renowned for having a wisdom, a profound wisdom culture that goes back many, many thousands of years. And, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs probably don't think of entrepreneurship as a spiritual activity. They may not even think of themselves as spiritual, or they may and they may have a faith tradition, but we definitely, you know, that's over here and business is over here. And I think personally we separate those two at our own expense. And I think in the culture of India, the little I know, you know, there are different roles in life and stages of life that are all honored. So there's, you know, someone in the role of a householder, someone's a business person, someone's a priest, someone's a physician. But all these roles can be seen as a spiritual path. And also I think it was common for someone to play out their life in the world and achieve what they achieve and then maybe let that go and move into a more deeply focused spiritual life as well. But there's not so much separation between our worldly life and our spiritual life. They're not as separated in that culture, I don't think by design.

I don't think they're separated at all. Fleet. In fact, I believe that life is a spiritual journey. And my ideal client, Fleet, is someone who's very successful, who is driven and he really or she really wants to make an impact on the world, but also has a spiritual drive and isn't quite sure how that fits into it. In the back of their minds, many have the notion I can meditate eight hours a day and grow spiritually or I can become a business titan and my job is to show them it's not or it's. And becoming a business titan is your spiritual path. So how does that play out when you're going to make the decision every entrepreneur has to make? Should I spend $5 million on this particular strategy? Should I hire this person in a senior executive position? How do you bring your spiritual outlook to that? That's the sandbox in which I play.

You know, I can't think of his name. It's not coming to me. I haven't looked at his work in a long time. But he was a well known business author and teacher of business and he did a study at one time. He actually interviewed some very some titans of business, some CEOs of major corporations, but who were renowned CEOs, very successful and admirable leaders. And he also had the opportunity to interview a number of fairly renowned spiritual teachers and he found they had a lot in common. Yes, it was a really interesting book. I wish I could remember the name of it. But he found that there was a lot in common that allowed both of them to manifest those roles. As a business leader and spiritual reader.

I don't believe that there is a difference. There is A difference, but it's an artificial difference that people create. And I encourage them to transcend that. There is no spiritual life and business life. There's only one life.

Beautiful. Beautiful. So as we're coming kind of to the close of our time, Dr. Rao, you may have addressed this already, but in terms of the importance of mindset, I know your work is really about helping entrepreneurs have the kind of mindset that's going to lead both to business success and happiness and spiritual fulfillment, meaning and purpose, all of these things. And we can. This can all become seamless, doesn't need to be compartmentalized. And so in terms of. In the face of all the challenges that entrepreneurs and business leaders face day in and day out, what would you say is the most fundamental mindset shift that they need to make or begin working on the fundamental mind shift change?

I'll give you two, if I may.

Okay, we'll let you get away with two.

The first is recognize that you do not live in a real world. You live in a construct. Every single one of us is living in the matrix, but this is not a matrix created by an alien civilization out to enslave us. This is a matrix that we have created with our mental chatter and our mental models. And this is actually a hugely liberating cause. It because if you live in a real world and you don't like it, you're screwed. Grill and bear it. But if you live in a construct and you don't like it, you can deconstruct the parts of it that are not working and build it up again. Do this over and over again. That's a learnable skill. The second thing I would like everyone listening to this podcast to understand, Flee, is that your awareness is like a flashlight. This is hugely important. Your awareness is like a flashlight. What does a flashlight do? It illuminates whatever you shine it on. Shine it on the floor, lights up the floor. Shine on the ceiling, lights up the ceiling, and I'll prove it to you. I want you right now, Flee, to shine the flashlight of your awareness on the chair in which you're sitting. And the moment you do that, you can feel the pressure of your buttocks on the seat. You can feel the fabric or the leather against the back of your thighs. Correct. 30 seconds ago, you were not aware of any of it. Why are you aware of it now? Because you've shown the flashlight of your awareness on it. Where do we typically shine the flashlight of our awareness? We typically shine the flashlight of our awareness on the two, three, or four things that are wrong in our life precisely on the two, three or four things that we have arbitrarily decided are wrong in our lives. And what about the 40, 50, 200 things which are pretty damn good about our lives? I would bet that nobody listening to this podcast has to worry about whether they're going to have dinner tomorrow. They have a bed to sleep in. They have a roof over their head. They're incredibly privileged. But they don't feel incredibly privileged. They feel put upon and stressed out. And why is that? Because of where they shine the flashlight of their awareness on a lousy strategy. Consciously, deliberately shine the flashlight of your awareness on the many ways in which you're incredibly fortunate and truly blessed. Do it last thing at night before you go to bed. When you get up in the morning, don't go immediately to the place of oh my God, there's too much to do and I don't have enough time to do it all. Recall that feeling of blessedness. Soak in it. Shower in it. Bathe in it. Marinate in it. As you go through the day, constantly call up, call it up in you. How fortunate you are. It is my hope that everyone listening to this will occupy the default emotional domain of appreciation and gratitude. Because when you're in the default emotional domain of appreciation gratitude, you're not nervous, you're not anxious, you're not fearful. The two cannot coexist.

Well, such an empowering message, this idea that we essentially live in a constructed our version of the universe and so if there are parts of it that are not working for us, we can change it. So empowering. And then there's also incredibly empowering message that the power of where we shine that light of awareness. Beautiful. Thank you. This has been incredibly empowering and I really hope our I hope our listeners can really appreciate that this is Some people might want to oh, this is the soft stuff or something. But this is probably the principles that are most central to not only to our business success but to our happiness and are so important and so valuable. Thank you so much. Where can people find out more about your work? Dr. Rao and the Rao Institute?

They can go to my website and my website is www thereau institute.com or they can email me. And my email is by name Sri Kumar S R I K U M A r.raoinstitute.com well thank you so much.

For your generosity and the wisdom you've shared with us today and it's really been a joy and something that I personally needed today and I'm finding immediately helpful in my life as an entrepreneur. So thank you so much.

My pleasure Entirely Fleet. And if any of your listeners go to my website, there's the big red button says join the community or Join now. And if they sign up there, then they'll get my blog and they'll get information about my programs.

Wonderful.

Wonderful.

I encourage our audience to do that. Thank you so much.

My pleasure Entirely Fleet.

Be well.

Thank you.

Thank you for joining me on the Radical Responsibility podcast. Remember, real change happens when we commit to our growth, face our challenges with compassion, and stay open to transformation. If you found this episode helpful, I encourage you to subscribe and help us spread the message of healing and personal empowerment. Stay grounded, stay present, and stay true to you. Take care.

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