Dare to be Wealthy - Mel Browne’s mission for you

Hello, welcome to her Empire Builder show. I am your host, Tina Tower and I am very excited for today's guest. Today I have Mel Brown, who I have known for very many years. I knew her kind of in the periphery before we got to meet at a business event back in 2018 and then we started working together in 2019 to build her first online course, my financial adulting plan. And since, gosh, the impact that Mel has made is absolutely incredible. She's one of my favorite humans. She's probably also one of Australia's top course creators and she's not not only for that, but also for her money smarts. And she's also very unapologetically human when she talks about her wealth. I know that for a lot of people when I talk about Mel, to them, they're like, she's so polished and so poised and she is, but she's also human underneath that and has such an eclectic, colorful backstory. So a little bit about Mel. Her new book, brand new book, dare to be wealthy is out this week. Go and get it any. I know she would like me to say any of your local bookstores, because let's support local, but you can get it anywhere because what we need is more wealthy women. So a little bit about Mel. She's an award winning ex accountant, ex financial advisor, now financial educator who's licensed to give general advice. She founded her own success successful accounting and financial planning firm before selling to an ASX listed company just before COVID Over the past 13 years, Mel has also written five books about business and money, including the global bestseller unfuck your finances and her latest, dare to be wealthy. So she has the theory, but she also has the life experience. She grew up in the western suburbs of Sydney in a violent and often inconsistent household and came from less than nothing in her early 30s after giving all her money to charity, which we're talk about a little bit in this podcast episode as well, because it was a move that she instantly regretted and wants to save other people from. So despite these starts, setbacks and mistakes, she's now a multi millionaire and she's gained all of the financial independence from the strategies that she's put in place herself and she's now teaching you how to do that. Mel genuinely believes, as a result of her own story and working with tens of thousands, thousands of women and families that understanding how to build wealth shouldn't be abdicated or just for the select few who can afford it. But it's something that you, absolutely everyone can achieve. Mel's regularly asked to comment on money and finances, making regular TV and radio appearances including Triple J's, the Hack, the Today Show, Weekend Sunrise, Sky Business, all of the exciting things. She's also been featured in CEO Magazine, Cosmopolitan, who, Vogue, Yahoo Finance, and had a fortnightly column in the Sydney Morning Herald and Melbourne's the Age for seven years. This one is inspiring, practical and full of moments that I think will hopefully change the way that you think about your financial future and help you to create more wealth in your life. Let's get it the fabulous Melissa Brown. Welcome to her Empire Builder Show.

Thank you for having me.

I you are one of my favorite humans all around in the world in terms of like the nicest, the smartest, the kindest, all of the things. So the last time you were on the show was very, very long ago. 2020. So it's about.

It was a while ago.

It's about time. And the reason that we get you back is because this week your brand new book, Dare to be Wealthy is out, which is so exciting and so excited. You have said I have not got to read it yet. By the time this episode airs, I will get it and I will devour it cover to cover straight away. But you have said it's different to any other book that you have written.

How it's so I've been thinking about this book for five years and I really wanted to write it, but I was scared to write it because it's got more of my story in it than ever before. But also I've just been angry. Maybe I've been in perimenopausal rage for so long that I've been so frustrated by the patriarchal system that we are in when it comes to money. And my question has continuously come up over the last five years and it's why we ran the conference that we did last year. Her wealth, her way. What if this, what if we created something that was by women for women? What would that look like? So I started in this book to undo the conditioning that we exist within that we don't even realize we are, and then suggested a different way of approaching it.

What do you think is the most obvious thing? Like when you say what the impact of the patriarchy has had on us and the things that get your bullies and make you really angry. What is the obvious one?

So there's a handful one. It's that men and women think that men are the better investor and that women are too emotional when the stats are women. Multiple research studies women are Better investors than men, and men are the more emotional investors. So that's a massive one. A second one is just the conditioning that we have. I was talking to Owen from Rask last year around, if a woman's say in her 30s, 40s, 50s, she will invariably say to me, I don't have 30 years to invest yet. I said to Owen, does a man ever said that to you? Because I get those DMs daily. And he goes, I've never had a bloke say that to me, ever. So this ageism that we're in is seeping across into our finances, but also just the words that we're using and the conditioning. So super funds, some funds are still using aggressive to describe one of the highest risk profiles. They're certainly still using a assertive. I don't know many women that describe themselves as that.

Yeah.

So they choose balance.

Be described that way.

Exactly. So they feel more comfortable with balance. They choose balance and that's costing them potentially one and a half percent, which is tens of thousands of dollars.

I wonder is like the conditioning and how much of it is innate? Because, I mean, as you know, I have teenage sons and one of my sons spoke to you at the conference, which, thank gosh, you put some sense into him when you spoke to us at your conference, because he's there going, I think I might try some day trading. I think I'll just have a go at it and try that. And the thing is, like, I have two teenage sons. Unfortunately, I didn't get a girl, so I couldn't, like, compare.

You don't have that experiment.

I would raise a woman differently. You know, I would have loved that chance. All the best I can do is raise men differently. But the interesting part is I know a lot of teenagers and I don't know any of the girls that naturally were like, yeah, I want to get stuck into day trading. Yeah.

And it's. So boys are more. Boys are more often going to online gamble. Boys are more often going to be investing crypto. So it's the same thing. So they're taking that same lens and applying it to trading, and it's the same. So as men age, the reason that the University of Essex found that men weren't as good investors and also more emotional is they trade more often. They are far more influenced by outside bad news that affects their trading. Whereas women, we tend to hold, we tend to invest in low index funds, we just trade regularly. It's almost like we have more important things to do. So we're Just going to set this up simply. And that simplicity, that lack of confidence is actually our superpower.

It's also the thing like I'm totally ignoring all my questions that are here because just giving me so much. Mel, it's the rise of like I've heard you talk a lot in Instagram lately about this whole time millionaire concept and I love the series that you did. If I was in my twenties again, this is what I do. If I was in my 30s, if I was in my 40s. And we'll get to the thing of what happened happens when, when people believe that they're too late. But I do think that and I've.

Got 50s and 60s coming and 70s. Yeah.

Because I'm 42 and there's a big part of me that was going, you know, when I was 20, shares weren't accessible like they are now. I couldn't go to a broker and kept myself back from seeing a financial advisor literally till five years ago because I didn't think I was bougie enough. But now do you think it's more advantageous for young people because it's so accessible and you can just take that. Even if you take the most conservative, balanced, lovely, safe approach, you can still set up for a really nice retirement.

Absolutely. Richard Branson famously said so. He had a young guy approach him and said give me $100,000 because it means more to me than it does to you. You're not even going to notice it. And he goes, no, you give me your age, he goes I will. Like that is the thing that I want, not the money. If I had my time again, yes, there is without question so much that young people are up against when it comes to technology and opportunity and property. However, their time, their ability to invest with small amounts in the share market, they are time millionaires. Like 250amonth invested over 50 years. 3.2 million at the 9.3 30 year Vanguard index. Like 250 bucks is a lot for an 18 year old. It's nothing for a 60 year old.

Yeah.

Which that's not increasing that amount. And I, I said that on, on a 7News podcast that has had a million views. The comments are wild with people's saying I want that now and that's not going to be worth much. And yes, you might believe that but if you believe that and do nothing, you're the only one that's going to be, that's going to miss out. So it's about how do I find more cash to make that $250 a month investment and then choosing one. As I talk about in the book, in the share chapter, we overcomplicate it. You can choose one thing to invest in. One thing.

Yeah, yeah, one thing. I love that when it comes to shit. Yeah. Okay, I'm going to come back to all of that so that I can say a little bit structured because I'm like, otherwise I'm going to go show it off. But you have built an incredible body of work on money for decades now. But one of my favorite parts of your story, which I wanted to put in there in case anyone hasn't read previous books or followed your work. But your financial story kind of started in a place that a lot of people wouldn't expect in Western Sydney, which you do. You know, you let some of that bogan out sometimes. What was your earliest relationship with money like when you were growing up and how's it changed and evolved over the time?

Yes. So I'm a Western Sydney chick, absolutely bogan at heart, which. And it's probably the biggest.

And I do think a little bit of bogan slips out every now and then. But I would describe you as like, elegant as you're not a bogan.

My husband would disagree, but I totally love. He sees me as the bogan.

Maybe when you laugh and snort. Yeah, exactly.

That gives it away every time. But I grew up in a western suburb household where I, looking back now, so it was an inconsistent, often violent household where my dad ruled the roost. And, you know, we were taught from a very early age, you know, you. You show a particular face to the world. And he looking back now, it was absolute coercive control that he exercised. I think a lot of households experience that growing up, to be honest, where the guy, if it was a heterosexual relationship, the guy had the. The money and just dictated what happened. So he dictated how my mom worked, he dictated how much she had to spend. He dictated whether she could work or not. He dictated. He put documents in front of her, told her to sign and not question them, which it's just fortunate for her. They were for properties and not for problems. But I. My money story growing up watching that was I never want to be her. And I didn't have any female role models around me. So I just believe I don't have the opportunity. I wasn't born in the right suburb because of the experiences that happened to me when I'm younger. I just don't think that I am enough. I don't think that I am the person that is capable of doing more than just the basics. So I was the handbrake for a long time. I got married at 20. It was the only way I could think of to escape the house, which is really sad. Looking back like that was the only option that I thought that I had.

I know I fell in love with Matt at 18. We got engaged when I was 19 and married at 21 purely to escape. Escape the house. I was just really lucky. I fell into the lap of a very good man.

Yeah, absolutely. But how many women don't decisions. So I stayed with him for 13 years because I believed that I needed just to stick with that choice. And I knew that my very fundamental Christian family would turn their backs on me if I did leave, which absolutely did happen for a time. But during the divorce, he turned to me at one point and said, you're never going to make it on your own. And I tell this story again in the book. And as a consequence of that, I gave my entire divorce proceeds and everything in my business and personal bank account to charity, to Opportunity International, which was kind of a screw you all show you move. Like, I didn't want anyone or him to ever say that anything I did from that point was a result of him.

That's like a whole new level of scorched earth.

It's so stupid. And I now talk to women to say, you know, if you're getting divorced, have. Don't make decisions for 12 months. If I made that in 12 months time, amazing. But don't make decisions when you're emotional.

Yeah.

But I ended up five figures of debt, living in a frat house, tiny, moldy basement bedroom. Absolutely not cute, not where I expected to be. And my story is because I had that financial background and because I knew where to find out. Absolutely. ETFs really weren't a thing. Absolutely. There was no apps that you could invest in. But I learned how to invest invest. I learned how to build a business. I learned how to find more cash. I learned how to pay down debt. And by the time I was in my late 40s, I was a multi millionaire and have the choice to work or not. And why I always tell those stories, Tina, as you know, is because I want women to understand that we are not what we came from. Yeah. But also our money stories and those limiting beliefs that we came up, that we grew up with, they don't define us.

Yeah. What do you think you had to shift the most? Because if you, you were, you know, mid-30s and you were starting from scratch, what was the belief that you held that made yourself think that you were then worth it when you've been battling that your whole life?

A lot of therapy, I've got to be honest, and I think that for some people, therapy, great therapy can really help you financially because it is undoing that. For me, it was trauma and it was growing up with some quite horrific things happening to me when I was younger that really fed into that and almost made it impenetrable. And I had to really start to let go of all that so I could undo those beliefs. But I have a whole chapter in the book called that's about the Nice Girl. And it's. I called it the Pretty fool because that was me and that's the conditioning I had. I grew up in a household where you just. I was the eldest daughter. I just wanted to please. I just wanted people to think well of me. And I grew up with the. I just want to be nice. I just want to be thought well of. So I don't, I didn't want to make waves. And I think that can stop women creating wealth because, you know, that's crass, that's selfish to want to do that. Whereas the research shows that when women hold wealth, families benefit, communities benefit, society.

Benefits are starting to get a lot more adopted too. I don't hear anywhere near as much now from when I started working with women in business 20 years ago to now. A lot of the younger women that I work with in their 20s, they don't have any of that. They don't feel like money is great. They're like, what? What do you mean money is great?

What do you mean? What's interesting though is they don't have that, but once they get into a relationship, they lose that. So the stats around young people are still showing that they are abdicating long term investing decisions to their male partner if they're in a heterosexual relationship. Relationship. And I was really surprised by that because I expected to see that. 40s, 50s. Yeah, it's still there. 25 to 29 and really strong. And I think there is still that. Oh, good, thank God you're here. But also the inherent belief that 93% of both men and women believe that women are worse investors than men. And the conditioning like name and I'd love to ask you this question. And I asked this question in the book name for me, five women in tv, film or books that are independently wealthy, not from family money and that aren't evil.

Yeah.

Can you name?

I mean, Sarah Blakely is My favorite.

That's not tv, film, or book. That's a real life.

You mean like a character?

Oh, a character.

Oh. Oh, yeah.

I can name two. I can name Sam from Sex and the City and Devil Wears Prada. She's kind of evil, but not really. Like, she's not quite a deeply flawed character.

I'm trying to think Reese Witherspoon played a character that was. That was pretty good with that, but I can't remember who it was. It wasn't in that place we called home movie, because. No, that wasn't.

Yeah. Elle Wood, who she played, was family money.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And yet if I ask you the same of a guy.

Every.

Every one. In Ocean's Turn, everyone. Like, it would be halfway in the Intern. So three.

Yep.

Right.

I'm gonna be distracted the whole interview now because I'm like, yeah, that's bad, Mel. We need. We need.

But it's that whole. If we're not shown it.

Yeah. 100 then.

And that's part of why Reese Witherspoon. And I love that you mentioned her because again, I talk about her in the book. Book. That's why she started Hallowed Sunshine, But.

I can't really think about. Yeah. Yeah.

So she's created some beautiful characters. Gone girl are wild, but not a lot of them are wealthy women that are independently wealthy. And I like. I want to write to her and say, let's start seeing it.

Yeah. Morning.

Morning.

What's the morning?

The morning show. But again, so Jen Aniston's character is independently wealthy. Reese's isn't yet.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's what we need to change that. Okay. New mission. Yeah, new mission. All right, so with the book, what is that?

Monkey see, monkey do. If we don't see it.

Yeah.

That means how do we know we want it?

Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like unfuck your finances was very practical. Dare to be wealthy, I think from the sounds of it isn't just practical, but. But I think when I've spoken to you about it, as you been riding it in the last year, it feels a lot more like mission led and manifesto, which I know is very confronting for you. What was it that made you finally go? Because I do. I do know you've always kept. Not a facade, but like that. That armor on there. And you dropped that for this. Yeah. What was it that made you decide. Enough. I'm putting it out there. And knowing that you. You also get. You know, we can loop back in that 7News podcast that you said has horrible comments below. And knowing that you're opening yourself up for that too. Yeah. What's made you do that now?

Well, I think it's been on my mind for about five years. And I think in the end it was just perimenopausal rage. Cause we had to sit down and go, I'm just so tired of it. And I was just getting angrier and angrier. But also, I just think it's time, like, whether, like, I don't believe this is the only book that you'll need to read when it comes to money. There's a lot of great books out there, but I believe if you're a woman, you can't afford not to read it. And it just is. I just feel so passionate about.

Just enough.

Like, I. I feel like I've been saying the same things for the last 10 years, and it's almost like, enough. And I've been saying them quietly and I've been saying something's behind closed doors and I've been shushed for some of them. And whether it's the comments in that 7News podcast where, like, a couple of people were quite literally shush. So many people were like, you're out of touch. Like, no, I'm not. We need to be talking about this. But I think it's also that I believe it's time for a revolution. We don't. Sometimes you can't fix a system from operating within it. So for me, it's suggesting a new way of doing money. What if it looked like something radically different? Because if women all changed, for example, how we invest, if. If every woman today just said, you know what? I'm going to be purposeful and intentional and I'm going to invest with my values and how I intuitively want to behave with my spending choices and my superannuation that alone. That decision alone would change systems. So it's women realizing we have more power, we have more agency, and we want to step into it.

I love the call when you talk about it like, yes, let's go. What is a story or an idea in the book that you think might genuinely surprise people or ruffle a few feathers?

My gosh, there's probably so many. I think the language for me. So I have a whole chapter on something I've coined, the gender financial language gap. So there's a lot of talk of the wage gap and the super gap and all these different gaps, but not enough attention. I don't think on language. And there's one study being done where so much of the language when it comes to finance is blokey and is male. We want to build, we want to battle, we want. We're assertive, aggressive. It's bull, it's bare. Like, it's all very masculine. And there is. And we might think that doesn't matter, and it doesn't affect behavior. So Coke, when they had Diet Coke, they wanted more milk, men to buy it, and they just couldn't convince them because diet is a female word. Men didn't want to walk around with Diet Coke, so they repackaged it and they created Coke Zero. The whole reason was because they wanted to sell more Diet Cokes and blokes wouldn't buy. And it worked.

Yeah.

And my thing is, if it worked for that, it will work for money.

Yeah.

If that's soft drink. Changing one word for soft drink makes such a difference. Imagine if we started to change some of the lenses.

So logical. But it's also so sad to realize that. To go, yeah, we are that simple and predictable. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I've got so many stories in there, not just about language, but like that, where. It's where I think people will be really surprised to go, oh, wow, I didn't realize that. Even things like. So I put a call to arms in the. And I see even the language then call to arms. In most movies and in most tropes, it's a hero's journey, whereas the heroine's journey is a lot messier. So a hero's journey is we go to the mountain, we battle and we scale it.

We.

We've made it. Whereas a heroine's journey, according to Mark Mulock, is a messier seeker's journey. And you could be on any part of the heroine's journey at any one time. And what I've suggested in the book is that's what we need for our finances. Because often for women, what happens is just at that point where we think, oh, okay, we're finally here, you know, and then, you know, and then the parent will age and we have to care for that. Or then something happens with kids, or then the divorce.

So many women my age are getting and going the thing that they've always done, and now they're going, I don't want to do it anymore. And so they're having to, like, get in to say, as they start their new business, or they start a new career, or they go back to uni, which I love, but yet does take a huge.

But it affects your finances. And I call that your messy Middle. And it's that messy middle for women. I think that where we look at kind of what I call the boon of success to go, oh, this is not what I wanted. So what does that actually look like? And it's often that next step of huh, what does that look like? I think that where women can really make such a big difference between to their finances. But it is also super practical. Like I talk about share investing, I talk, I put the practical in there because I don't want you to go, I get it now. What? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, you couldn't do it without being practical. No. So talking about putting it out and putting a bit more of you in there, how, like how are you dealing with the personal stuff when it comes and you get negative comments or someone you know, often men try and put you in their place, into your place. How are you dealing with that? Like, do you respond to those comments? Are you doing it like. One of my favorite people that I find who's also in finance actually is Ramit on. Do you see? Oh yeah, he trolls back. He's dull.

I won't do that.

I find it hilarious.

I know. I don't want to bring on that heat.

I know.

But I do a number of things.

With it that way. Yeah.

And I speak to a lot of women where they're scared to put themselves out there because of the blowback. But for me it's if the message and the. And the why is important enough, then you feel you'll figure out how to deal with the blowback. So I do a number of things. One, I have people I talk to. So I've actually hired the wonderful Kimmy Nepkavu to help me navigate the book coming out because I know I'm going to have to discuss themes, etc, whatever that are going to be hard. So it's having that sounding board to say, right. How do I approach that? How do I not be buffeted by that? On Insta, I hide words. So if you use whore, bitch, if you order off some other spastic retard, the most horrific words that have been leveled at me, if you want to call, if you want to comment or call me, any of those, I'm not going to see them die is also rape. So there's a whole stack of words that just by sharing financial advice, just by sharing financial advice. So imagine what other women are getting if I'm just getting that from sharing financial advice. So that can be a beautiful thing you do on Insta to protect yourself is you can just hide Those words and you'll never see them. The third thing I do is if I feel like it's an argument that I can enter into that's logical, I will argue back. So I had someone say to me, you're out of touch. And I replied, no, I'm not. I'm a Western Sydney chick. The strategy that I've suggested, you can do from found money. Here's a free resource if you're open to it. And of course, they never applied reply back. I had people sharing myths like, yes, but the. What did one person say? But inflation's running at 2.8, so if that's 25 in a year, how can anyone afford to live? I'm like, no, you're wrong. Inflation, that's an annual rate, not a monthly rate. So it's going and educating people as well. Because I think when it comes to money, we didn't load money at school, we didn't learn investing. We didn't even learn basic inflation, wages rising, all of it. So it's educating people to know. And I'm not scared to say, well, actually, you're wrong, but this is some things that will help you. And this is actually what's right.

Yeah, okay. I love that. Yeah, you got this, Mel. We're right behind you. I mean, I had. When that first comment came out, and I was like, I don't normally go in and comment warrior, but I did see you had a lot of people coming in and going, right. The defenders figure out, like, we'll defend.

One person just said, shush. And I laughed at that. I must have been. I said that to my husband. He goes, they're not wrong. But I actually, I galvanized that. So there came a point where I thought, this negativity, I want some positivity in with that. So I actually went to my community and said, I've just put this thing on, and there are some people that are feeling hopeless at the moment. And I want you to flood it with comments to share how actually you don't have to feel that way. And they did that. And I hope that people reading the comments were like, huh, wow. Okay, so sometimes women trying to create wealth. Yeah, Yeah, I know. Crazy, right?

Yeah, that's what we want. So as you've created and grown your business, you've created and grown and sold businesses, but now you're often on camera, you're on interviews, you're in the spotlight. How do you show up on days? Like, I know personally you've gone through a lot of stuff over the last couple of years as well. When it feels really hard and you're feeling tired and you don't feel. Because I know a lot of people that I work with and a lot of people that are listening to this right now look at you. And you always appear so polished. I know, but this is also why someone would have said you're out of touch is because you always appear so polished. So put together.

So not on stories, but probably in my feed. Yeah, look, I think I am super introverted, so I have lots of time where I do nothing. So Mondays, you will never find me on camera. Fridays, you'll never find find me on camera. So really strict boundaries around when I won't show my face, because part of my. And I share a little tiny piece of this in the book. But when I was very, very young, we had a family, a friend's father take photos of us completely without consent and completely inappropriate. So when a camera is aimed at me, I instantly go into flight or fight. So I have that extra layer of not only do I not want to show up, but just that there is a camera there. And so this is problematic. So, again, I think it's realizing what will work for you and for me, knowing that I just can't be on all in time. So I love that you go on every day into social and say, hey, friends, this is what I'm doing today. I could never do that from that boundary point of view and because how I feel about being on camera. But I show up enough that the community sees me and if anything, my team pushes me to show up more and I just say no to them because I'm like, yeah, I get that you want me to. I get that people love that. But I show up as much as I can. I've also had training, I've had. I've worked with some people from NIDA to help me with diction and with poise and all that sort of stuff. I have great lighting, but also, I think Covid really broke me with that because it was so important that I get the message of finance out there, that I was showing up with no makeup, hair, not done, bad lighting. And because I did that every single day consistently for two years, I kind of lost that. What will people think? And so now, whilst I am vain, I care less what people think.

I'm like, yeah, this is what it is. And I mean, it's the relatability to like. It does. It does. Yeah, it does help. I stopped using filters in 2019, so a long time ago. For that, that reason was.

Plus it's not healthy for you when you look in the mirror and that is not how you look. Or I once thought about it and went, if I, if I. Cuz I speak a lot and someone comes up to me and they're like, whoa, what happened to your face?

Yeah, exactly.

I don't even want that. I want them to go, oh wow, you were. You look even better in real life.

Exactly. Yes. I do think that that is. Yeah, that is a very important point. To be able to do it.

Yeah. Okay.

So there's this idea that if you've made it, you get to retire early and just like ride off into the sunset. But you haven't done that.

No.

What inspires you? I think I know the answer to this. To keep building and creating and what is the thing that fuels you and are you ever tempted to go to your country house and just.

Oh hell yes. We did it over Christmas. So I told everyone I was going away, didn't go away for three weeks. I told my husband we were in the Fortress of Solitude and told other people that as well. So they knew and then just didn't answer the phone. Didn't for three weeks. It was the best holiday I've ever. Yep, it was awesome. No, not quite the best, but it was amazing. Now I've got off track because I love that so much I'm remembering my three weeks. No.

So why, why is it not a permanent Fortress of Solitude?

Well, I think a few reasons. One, I really want to give back. So for me, I want to give a significant amount of money back to charity still and I want to earn more so I can give more back. So that's really, really important to me. Two, I love the work I do educating women and I, I believe I have more to give. So before I turn 60, I want to get my PhD. There's. Oh yeah, I'm current so I'm currently trying to choose because you've got to go super niche as to what you want to do. So I want to be Dr. Brown by the time I'm 60 and really have. It's got to be to do with women and money.

Yeah.

So I'll be.

I can't wait to see what topic you land on.

I know, I'm very excited. So the next couple of years is figuring that out.

Like entrepreneurs born or made. Like is it something that's innate or can anyone train to do it? And I started it and then I started listening to lecturers and I'm like, I can't I can't do it.

Oh, it's hard.

Yeah, yeah. That'll be for when I'm older. Older, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, that's my pre 60. But it's just as well for me. I believe in that whole Japanese concept where the Japanese don't have a word for retirement. I want to still be doing this when I'm 70 and 80, nowhere near the same pace, but I hope that I will still have something that I believe is important and relevant to stay. And whilst there's no way I will be doing what I am doing now, I hope never to stop. And my husband's very much the same. We both love what we do, we both believe in service and we want to be able to do it as long as we can. Just maybe not at the same pace.

Will be so rewarding for you as well. Like the amount of people that I talk to and your name comes up in conversation and they're like, mel's changed my life. Which is. I mean, you could never really get enough of knowing that, that you've made such a positive impact for so many people.

And at the conference last year, so we had a conference, an in person conference for 700 women, Her wealth, her way, which we're running again this year. That energy, I reckon, has fueled me for another five years. Like there was. There's just something about being in a room with 700 women and having half of them were my existing community and having them eyeball me. We had one that came down from Darwin, like we had them flying from all over the place, New Zealand, Perth, whatever. They said that they found me because they were coming down from Darwin. They were, they were on a road trip. They were listening to Unfuck your Finances. Then they ended up on the audiobook. Then they ended up on my webpage, joined mfap and they said, now we're here at your conference. I'm like, oh, my. And she said, I just needed you to know how I got here. Bloody hell.

See, everything works like, it's just.

I love it. I love that.

One of the big questions that your audience and mine often ask is, and we kind of touched on this a bit at the start, is, is it too late to start investing? And you've addressed that a lot. But. But what do you say to people that know that, yes, it would have been heaps better if I started 10 years ago? What's the advice there?

So again, I talk about this in the book because ageism, with women particularly is such a theme and you can't not believe that the ageism we just take on from society, to do with our looks, to do with our gray hair, to do with how we age, women bring that into our finances. So I've had. I get DMs every single day, every single day from women in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s. Have I left it too late? I had a conversation with Rask last year, so Owen from Australian Investors Podcast, and I said to him, have you ever had a guy say this? Because I just really. I'm always asking guys this because I want to know, do men think the same? And he just looked at me and went, no. A guy has never said to me, have I left it too late? So I believe this because of the ageism that women hold, because of that lookism. I genuinely believe that that's where that comes from. But if you know how to find more cash. So I've got a free resource, 20 plus ways to find find 10k in 12 months. If you know how to find more cash, you can keep investing from 50, 60, 70. It is understanding that the power of compound interest means that even small amounts are absolutely worth. Is not about being debt free and then investing, but it is realizing you have time, but you need to start. We have women in our community, and one example is Liz from Melbourne, who about 18 months ago, she was in her 50s, never owned her own home. Thought that just was off the table for her age. 53, single woman, bought her own home. There is more available to us than we understand is possible, but it's learning how to do that and learning how to have that.

Yeah.

And it is.

You know, I was having this conversation, my kids the other day actually going like, we want to get rich slow, like, just fine. And I know.

So building wealth is boring.

Yeah. Yeah. But it was consistency. I made so many mistakes throughout my 20s and 30s because I was trying to go too hard. And I only started getting into shares, like mid-30s, and started with 20 a week going into pocket sick. Like, yeah. And I thought, what's even the freaking point? But I started and I would sit and up it and up it. And then when I started working with you, I have to share this tip in 2019, and I was like, you know, I'm your business coach, but this tip that you gave me, like, changed.

I know which one you're gonna say.

I know, because I was like, huh, I hate this. But also, it has changed.

So I.

You know, you talked about the. The beliefs that we form when we're growing up with. With different things. And one of mine was, was a very big scarcity belief. And I always believed that I would be broken. A part of me was like, when I started getting money was like, quick, spend it before it disappeared. Like, spend it, use it. I never had more than a thousand dollars in the bank account because I was like, what's the point of it just sitting there doing nothing? I may as well have fun. Life is short. Let's go. It's all going to disappear at any moment. That kind of thing. And you said, well, if you can start investing, maybe every time you buy something, you just put the same amount into shares. Very simple concept it.

I can't.

I won't even say how much money is in there now and how much. I have curbed my spending because of it.

Because you have to.

I want that pair of shoes. Okay. So if they're $300, do I have $600 that I'm going to put in? So that I was looking after both instant gratification Tina and also future old lady Tina. And that simple thing changed so much in terms of the beliefs and the. The habit of it and just thinking about it all the time.

I love that you do. And it's such a simple hack. Yeah. Choose your thing. Maybe it's eating out. Maybe it's experiences, holidays. For me, it's clothes and shoes. Whatever you spend on that, you have to invest. And my latest one is that I've been doing for a while now is I also have to donate it. So it has to be three times now.

That's huge. Yeah. So as a deal, I've just finished a. A no buy. Well, I haven't finished. So I went this year on a no buy. No essentials. No. Because I decluttered in the holiday.

Yeah.

And I'm like, I have 17 white tops.

Yeah.

I did not need any more top. I'm like, I have 17 many bags. So many shoes, so many. I'm like, my consumption got out of control. I'm like, I don't need any.

Shop your closet instead.

Yeah. I was like, I'm just gonna do a month of no buy. I'm going all year. Yeah. I'm like, I'm doing it. Yeah. And it makes such a big difference. I'm looking at.

And you can still get that dopamine hit. So if you can encourage others to do it too. I have got some. I did it with some girlfriend's kids last year that are all either late to teens or early twenties. So I invited them round and said, if You. You can shop my closet. Everything's 10 bucks, and I'll give the money to charity. And you're teaching them thrifting, but also you're talking to them about money.

And I mean, what a bargain for that.

Oh, I've had so many people say that. I'm like, no, it's with my friends, kids. But also what you could do is say to friends, bring around half a dozen things you're not wearing anymore. Oh, you don't love. Let's half a dozen of us all get together. You will probably come with a small suitcase full of stuff, and suddenly you've all got most of a new wardrobe and it hasn't cost you a cent.

Yeah.

So it's figuring out that sort of stuff as well. Like this. The swap economy, I think is fantastic, but it's just thinking of doing that stuff. Yeah.

And I think, like, that's got the reputation back in the day. I know. You know, I only shopped at op shops when I was young and got that reputation of, like, being poor. And I really had to reframe it into going, well, maybe we could. It's sustainable. Like, I don't need to waste so much and let go of that stigma.

Definitely. The smell of an OP shop for me for a long time actually was problematic because I just associated that to. That's all we could afford. Like, it wasn't glamorous. That was it. But my. So my nana, my gorgeous nana used to take me when I was an older teen into the. The op shops around the Coogee, Botany Bay Area and Rockdale. And I then started to see. Oh, she's having community and getting together with f. Like, with her friends. So I reprogrammed as a result of that. So I love shopping. I love thrifting.

All the rage for the kids now, too. You mentioned before, you don't need to pay off your debt before you start investing. And I know there's always a fierce debate in personal finance is you pay off your house, do you make the money elsewhere? What are the different things that you advise women to consider in that decision?

So if you've got bad debts, and by bad debt, I mean buy now, pay later, even if you're not paying a single cent of interest. Because if you go to afterpay's site to the business section, they will proudly declare that you overspend by 54%, upped it from 40 to 54.

Yay.

Afterpay. When you use their services, if it's a credit card, you'll spend an extra 18%. So we want to get rid of that because the interest is going to be massive, the packed penalties, but also the overspend is massive. If it's freaking awful debt, things like payday loans and those convenient loans like nimble, as much as 68% interest, comparative rate, you're paying. So we want to get rid of that. We'll never find a return as good as that. But if we've got okay or good debt. So if we've got business loans, if we've got investment loans, if we've got mortgages, student loans, then we want to get comfortable with that because they're assets and investments. So currently mortgages, you should have a five in front of it. This is coming out on a Wednesday. I believe we'll have received an interest rate hike the day before, but it should still have a five in front of it. I can get a return on the share market with a 9 in front of it. So the power of compound interest, where's my money better placed? Yes, I want to, if I'm looking at my mortgage, yes, I want to pay a bit more often, have a buffer so that if life happens, I've got that money there. So you might put into a comparative rate site or an extra payments calculator and figure out how could I pay it off five years earlier? So building up a buffer. But with that extra money that you might have been paying it off faster, consider investing instead. Because sure, someone that's trying to pay it off faster will be debt free first, but they're going to have less choice than you because you can't eat your house. Meaning that unless you're willing to downsize or bring in a border, you can't make money from that asset. Whereas if I'm investing and I'm paying a little bit more off, then in 10 years time or 15 years time, I've got more choice because I've got that investment that I can potentially draw down or use. So I don't ever want to be either or. Yeah, I want to be and yeah, pay a little bit more and also be investing. But be aware there's different.

I found it so tricky because I'm like, yeah, and we're conditioned.

Oh, pay off your debt. Debt scary. But what if debt wasn't scary? What if debt felt comfortable enough that you could do that?

Yeah.

And in the book I talk about, I use a really different analogy that I haven't used before. So I talk about debt. So I call bad debt the quicksand of Debt, like, it looks harmless, but actually it can really pull you under. I call okay debt a bridge. So if we want to get to the other side, yes, we could see somehow travail down to the valley. But most of us are going to want to cross that bridge. And for some people, that bridge is going to feel strong and steady. Others, it's going to feel super rickety. But it's making it as. Making it as comfortable to walk across as you can.

Yeah.

And then the good debt is like taking a car across the bridge so that you get to where you want to go faster.

I like that.

And I'm scared of heights, so I get not comfortable with okay debt. But I'm still going to walk across that bridge. I'm just going to make sure it's a wide lane bridge and not a bridge that's swaying and that I feel buffeted on. And how we control what that bridge feels like is not having the dream house, like not borrowing everything that we can, not doing the Renault investing instead and not having that extra, extra layer of debt. So it's choosing how we have that debt too.

Yeah, it's hard. I mean, in like my late 20s to late 30s, every time I went for a loan, I was like, I'll take however much you'll get. I'll go right to the end. And then probably a few thousand over and have to scramble at the end every time. Yeah, yeah.

In my twenties I absolutely had to do that too. But also we. In my 20s, I had a lot of energy, so I had a second job so that I was also studying and working full time. My husband had his second job. So in your 20s, you got more.

Interesting knowledge of now and the energy of then. I know. Okay, I want to ask you about business because obviously we're on her own builder podcast. You are like the poster child for the most successful person that I've ever worked with in that when we met, your course was making, I think like a couple hundred or a couple thousand dollars a year. And then I think launched.

Oh, I had courses before that had made a couple hundred, maybe a couple of thousand.

Yeah, probably. You've created my financial adulting plan, which has been going now for six years. Seven years.

Yes. A six.

Yeah. Which is so incredibly successful and has helped thousands and thousands and thousands of people.

Yeah, we're up to five and a half thousand people.

That set it apart part to be so successful because it's not like you're alone in financial education and sharing your thoughts online and through courses. What do you do that's made it so exceptional?

I think having run those other businesses was really lucky for me in a way because what I knew is I knew the power of systems and having that discipline focus. So going to an expert. So we used you as the coach and not having all those systems put into place early was so key for us and what we decided to do. I remember when we engaged you is I had lozi who's my 2ic work for me part time and I just said to her whatever is currently working in that space that the research is showing we are doing and we're just going to keep adding different things every time, every single time we launch but we're not going to drop the good things that are also working which is what I'm prone to do. We're just going to be consistent. Even if we are bored with it, we are going to be consistent and I believe that that consistency and that adding more and more in is absolutely has what helped us. But we also laser focused on that. So at the time I think I was doing a number of different things and I ended up dropping a successful business course that I was running and just laser focused in on the my financial adulting plan. Because I'm like this needs to be as great as it can be both as a program, both with how we talked about it, how we marketed it, the systems that we wanted to build and now it is hyper competitive in our space. There is so many competitors. It is so we are not. That is not the only product we have anymore. But I think what we've also recognized that makes us continue to be successful is whilst that still takes up half of our business, we know our customers so well that we have so many complimentary things that she or they can do. Whether it's a shares masterclass for 90 minutes which we, we liken it to where you watch a movie for 90 minutes so you can do this. We have books obviously we have more and more business things.

Without like yeah, yeah, yeah. Can I share the two things that I think has made you please Successful?

Yeah yeah. Like oh and I taught myself all the things so I also, I learned from experts and then when I hang on I can do that. So I run our own ads. I like, I know, I know deeply our numbers and our woman.

Yeah. And so this is like my number one for you is you are quite scrappy. There's nothing that you don't. There's nothing you say no, I can't do that or I need to look like if If I would ever. Hey, I think this is working. I've seen this work in a couple. You're like, great, I'll try it a crap.

We'll give it a go.

The yeah. The fear of failure was pretty absent from everything that you were doing. Like there's some things that work so well. There's some things that totally tanked and you're like never took it on as. As like, oh, okay, that's my failure. But this didn't work in the business. Let's change it and let's like your pragmatism with that I think helped you to just get such beautiful momentum and knock it out of the park. So I think you did that really, really well. And the second is I've never seen anyone so obsessed. Obsessed with the customer journey and feeling like you obsess over. Okay. The second that she gets to that thank you page, she's going to be feeling fear. She's going to be wondering, am I good enough for this? Am I able to do this? And this is the first video she needs to be seeing there. And this is what. And I think knowing her so well and giving a so incredibly much as well is exhausting for you because you're worried about it all the time. Yeah. But also has made it so good is because people can feel that care once they're in as well.

I love that you see that. No, that's. We. We have two really strong Personas and we have her in mind all the time. Even little things like we tweak the program consistently to make sure it's. It's still relevant. I send handwritten cards to every single person that signs up because I want them to know that I see them.

Yeah.

We want to make sure there's.

I do that and I launch and I have like 40 people.

I've sent five and a half thousand cards over there. That's ridiculous. My team. So Lozi said this launch. We're not going to do that this time, are we? I'm like, yeah, we're doing it. And I don't. You don't have a pre printed thing on it. I hand write them.

Yeah. Yeah. Because it's the level of care. Like it's.

It's so good.

Okay, I have two questions left for you. Second last one. If you could whisper one sentence to every woman lying in bed at night worrying about money, what would you say?

I would say you're not too old, you're not too young, you're not too busy or you're not too Broken. But you just need to start.

Yeah.

I would just want her to know that deeply, like, know that you are not those things, but also know you've got to start, like, you've got to get up and what's the one thing that you got to start doing?

And now they can start with a $20 book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So exactly.

I think it's 24 on Amazon, but don't go down. So independent bookseller.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll caveat that. Okay, finally, you're talking about dare to be wealthy. What are you daring yourself to believe next? Like, what is the edge that you are leaning into for your own growth?

That's an interesting question. What is it? Okay, probably so for my own growth. So the thing that I'm daring to lean into is that I am worth having, having boundaries so strong that they. That I can ruthlessly hold them. And that sounds really. That might sound really harsh, but the thing that I am, what I know for myself is there is so much that I want to do and yet I am so buffeted still by the emotional. And that has the ability to change how I show up for my family, for my friends, for my community. And I just don't want that. And that sort of stuff impacts your finances. It affects you, impacts your business, even if we don't realize it. So last year, I think I already have quite strong boundaries, but I've made them. I've dug a moat with them around some people just because I just finally. And maybe it's just menopause again. That went, that's enough.

Yeah.

Like I'm.

That's.

That's just enough.

Yeah. And it does, when you do that, I think the level of self respect and self love that you then feel enabled to go and do all the things that you want to be able to do.

Yeah. But I had. It's. That's very much a daring thing because I think I've even asked you, you know, how do you do it? Because it is something that for me, I've had to come to that place.

Yeah.

For myself. And really had to. To go. I'm crazy.

Yeah.

I think I thought I was, but this is just a new level where it's like, no, I won't have my peace impacted because of what I want to do. And how. You can't pull from an empty cup.

Yeah.

And my cup empties so quickly when some people take from it. So it's just not allowing them access to it.

I mean, imagine a world where more women are encouraged to hold their beautiful boundaries and to have more wealth.

Yeah.

Let's get that world. Mel, thank you so much. You're so wonderful. You're so incredible. I can't wait for everyone to read the book and shoot you into the next level of superstardom so that so many women can have that more wealth. It's so important. Thank you.

Oh, thank you for having me.