Heroic Interview: Everything is Figureoutable with Marie Forleo

Hi, this is Brian. Welcome back to the Optimized podcast. We've set up a new studio here. We've got our main studio in front of me. We've set up this interview studio for our first chat back. I am so thrilled to have Marie Forleo, which is the absolute perfect interview to kick off our new series. Her new book just came out. Instant New York Times number one bestseller. Everything is figureoutable. We got a pre order copy, I read it and frankly, I knew it was going to hit that just from the quality, let alone how I knew you'd approach it from a sharing perspective. And as we've discussed and I share in the note that I created that we're sharing with our community, I knew you were awesome. We connected years ago and we had our interview and it was fun. But all I have done for the last five years is read books. I've done no blogs, no videos, nothing. And my wife Alexandra went through B school and did all that. So you're part of our life and our family. But my wife bought the book, I swiped it, immediately read it, and I said, are you kidding me? I knew Marie was awesome, but I had no idea she was this awesome. And your book, so brilliantly from a very grounded, unbelievably funny, playful, yet simultaneously somehow really rigorous, scientific and just smart and spacious and also a hey, let's do this, we're here to make a difference in the world perspective. I was just blown away. So as I've said, you know, I've read a lot of books. We've done over 550 of these notes and this is absolutely one of my all time favorite books. I so highly recommend it. I rarely say that a book is a must read and I'm hesitant to say that because everyone needs their autonomy. But this is as close as it can possibly come to absolutely wonderful. I'm so thrilled for you for the book and so excited to see this book really have a powerful impact in the world. So thank you for the book, thank you for dedicating your life to doing the work you do and thank you for being here today.

Oh, Brian, it is an absolute joy and pleasure and it means so much coming from you knowing how many books that you read and how much material that you have reviewed in the course of your career. So thank you and it's a joy to be here with everybody.

Yeah. Well, let's do this. Everything is figureoutable Again, awesome book. We've got the Philosopher's Note on it. What I want to do is Kind of chat about some of my favorite big ideas. The book is packed with them, obviously, but I have a few favorites in particular that I'd like to hear you talk about. And then I'm all about fundamentals. Eating, moving, sleeping, breathing properly, being present, prospering, etc. So I want to talk to you about your favorite fundamentals.

Yes.

And I'm also all about virtue. Want to hear your favorite virtue? And then I'm also about seizing the day. So I want to talk a little bit about how you do that and then finally, what it means for you to be a modern hero. It's a big theme of our work and in 2020. But let's start at the top, which is Everything Is Figureoutable. Of course, you kicked the book off with a great story, but tell us, why is your book called Everything Is Figureoutable?

Well, we gotta take it back to Jersey for this one. And all credit goes to my mom. She's a beautiful, interesting, fiery, spicy soul. So painting a picture, my about five, three. She has the tenacity of a bulldog. She looks like June Cleaver and she curses like a truck driver. So she is one of the most amazing people you will ever meet. My mom grew up the daughter of two alcoholic parents in the projects of Newark, New Jersey. So she learned really by necessity, how to stretch a dollar bill around the block. And when she was young, which was a really tough childhood, she made herself a promise that when she grew up, she would find a way to create a better life. And one of my fondest memories growing up as a kid was sitting around our kitchen table on Sundays cutting out coupons together because she loved to teach me all the different ways that our family could spend money. And she also loved teaching me about the fact that brands would send you really cool free stuff like recipe books or cooking utensils if you saved up what's known as proofs of purchase. Some people listening or watching right now might remember this whole deal, those premiums. Anyway, one of my mom's most prized possessions was this little transistor radio that she got from Tropicana Orange Juice for free. It was shaped like an orange. It had a red and white straw sticking out of the top. And she took this little radio everywhere she went. So my mom's one of those humans who's always busy. She's always doing something like Thanksgiving, she doesn't even put a chair out for herself because she's so busy running around the house. So when I was young, I remember one day coming Home from school, walking home, and I hear that little tinny sound of the radio, music blaring off in the distance. When I got closer to the house, I realized it was coming from up above. And I look up and I see my mom and her radio perched very precariously on the roof of our two story house. And I was terrified. I looked up, I'm like, mom, are you okay? What are you doing on the roof? And she yelled down. She's like, re. I'm fine. The roof had a leak. I called the roofer. He said it was gonna be like 500 bucks. Screw that. I remember there was some asphalt in the garage. So I'm fixing it. And I was like, okay, that's just what was normal. Another time, I came home from school and I go in the back of the house and I hear the radio blaring. It's coming from the. I pushed the bathroom door open. There's like dust particles all in the air. There's pipes sticking out of the wall. It looked like an explosion went off. I'm like, mom, are you okay? What's happening? She's like, oh, Reed, no big deal. Some of the tiles had some cracks and I didn't want the bathroom to get moldy. So I'm retiling the bathroom now. Bri, you gotta get. My mom is high school educated and this is the 80s, so this is a pre Internet, pre YouTube world. One day I come home and it's the fall. It was already dark out, so it was creepy. And as I approached my house, everything was dark and it was silent, which is very unique for an Italian American home. You know that there's trouble if you don't hear anything. So I walk in the house and still I can't find anything. But I had that pit in my stomach that something was really off. I'm like, where's my mom? Where's the sound of that radio? And then all of a sudden, I heard these clicks and clacks and it was coming from the kitchen. So I followed that sound. And I see my mom hunched over the kitchen table, which looked like an operating table. There was screwdrivers and electric tape and in about a dozen pieces, a dismantled Tropicana orange radio. And I was like, are you okay? That's like your prized possession. What happened? And my mom, very matter of fact, she's like, great. It's no big deal. The little antenna was off and the tuner dial wasn't working. So I'm fixing it. And Brian, I stood there for a Minute, just like watching her work her magic. And then I finally thought to ask the question that I'd always wanted to ask. I was like, hey, mom, how do you know how to do so many different things that you've never done before, but nobody's showing you how to do it? And she put down her screwdriver and she cocked her head to the side. She's like, really, Bre. Nothing in life is that complicated. You can do anything you set your mind to. If you roll up your sleeves, you get in there and you do it. Everything is figureoutable. And Bri, I was like, what? Like, that phrase just washed over me. And the philosophy took root in my soul. And ever since, it has been the single most powerful driving force in my. Helped me in high school get out of a physically abusive and toxic relationship when I was in college. I'm the first in my family to go to college. It helped me get these rare work study positions which helped me actually pay for school when I graduated. It helped me land every job I've ever had from being on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange, publishing a Conde Nast, selling glow sticks at mega clubs, teaching hip hop and fitness videos, eventually becoming one of the world's first Nike elite dance athletes despite having no formal training. It helped me have the audacity to start my business at 23, with no experience and no investors and no clue, and eventually build it into what we have today, which is something I'm really, really proud of. And so for me, this idea was so powerful that I had to put it in a book. And the more people I've shared it with, one of the things that's powerful about it is it's universal and limitless in its application, meaning you can use it to fix a leaky faucet, or you can use it on the really big stuff like starting a company or transforming your. And you can use it on the really tough stuff like finding your way through the hard truths of life like loss and grief and addiction and trauma. So that's where the idea came from. And that's just a little bit about why I am so passionate about sharing it with others.

I love it. Brilliantly told here and just such a great intro to the book. We get to meet your mom and you know, I was with you right there seeing her on the roof and then the Tropicana orange. My mom would do the same thing. You know, I got my Big Wheel, you know, whatever that, whatever that cereal company was. We got the Big Wheel from all that and I just love the phrase, you know, and how transfixed you were of everything is figureoutable. And it's funny because actually the design of your cover is just so great. So the way you stack that everything is figureoutable. And I actually put this on my blackboard. Everything is figureoutable in the same kind of, you know, vertical orientation. And then right below it I put 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, go. So the combination of your work and Mel Robbins five second rule I found really fun too. We talk about that a lot as a way to close the gap, you know, between who we're capable of being, who we're actually being right now. Just, you feel inspired, take action, don't wait. Which you obviously talk about a lot as well. But I think your broader belief, which we're going to talk about next, that everything is figureoutable from the mundane to the things that might be most challenging you in your life today. And just pausing to see that and then to truly believe it is just so powerful. I want to talk about beliefs next. But before we go there, anything else you want to add on that?

Yeah, because one of the things I've been doing on book tour right now is actually asking people to raise their hands. Like the other night I was in Seattle, we had over, I think it was over 800 people in the room. And I said, hey, please raise your hand if you don't believe everything is figureoutable. And it's okay. I want honesty because I want to be able to address it. And we had some people raise their hand. I'm like, good, this is great. So I'll just tell a quick story because if anyone listening right now is skeptical or they're saying no, like I want to believe it, but I don't, what about X, Y or Z? I feel like we should address that so then people can get the most out of the rest of our conversation. So when I was first writing the book, I went out to brunch with some friends. One of my friends brought her 10 year old son. Folks asked me, marie, what are you working on this book? What's the title? Everything is figureoutable. And the 10 year old said, no, it's not. And I was like, oh, ok, awesome. Please tell me more. Tell me something that you believe is not figureoutable. And he said, well, we human beings can't grow working wings out of our back and fly away. And I was like, ok, it's very interesting. I said, have you heard a CRISPR that may be coming down the line? Sometime. I said, but we human beings can indeed fly. And he said, yeah, I guess you're right. He said, okay, well, wait, I can't bring my dog back from the dead, the one that died a few years ago. And I was like, well, that may be true as of right now. I said, but scientists are working on cryogenics and people have been cloning dogs. And he was like, yeah, I guess you're right. Conversations like that, Brian, inspired me to create a set of rules, a little mental container, if you will, that allows us to use this phrase for its intended purpose, which is to awaken our own innate wisdom, to create positive change in our lives and the world around us. So here, the three rules of the figureoutable philosophy. Very simple. They go like this. Rule number one, all problems or dreams are figureoutable. Rule number two, if a problem isn't figureoutable, it's not a problem. It's a fact of life, like death, gravity, certain laws of nature. Rule number three, you may not care enough to solve this particular problem or reach this particular dream. And that's okay. Find something you do care deeply about and go back to rule number one. You know, when I was researching the book, I found this incredible quote by a British quantum theorist named David Deutsch. He wrote a book called the Beginning of Infinity. It's a mind bender. I couldn't even get through it in the written form. I had to listen to the audio version to even like dive in. He's got a quote that goes like this. Everything that is not forbidden by the laws of nature is achievable given the right knowledge. But you don't have to take a quantum theorist word for it or my word for it. I just ask that people try it before they deny. And one more quick story, because again, I had another friend that showed up, someone who loves and respects my work, who's known me for close to two decades. And he said to me, marie, I love the title of your book. The COVID looks amazing. But even I said to myself at first, you know what? I don't think everything is figure out. What about addiction? What about trauma? What about a life altering or life ending diagnosis? And I said, I am so thankful that you brought that up. Let me tell you a story. So, Brian, the first time I shared this idea publicly outside of my own platform was on Oprah's Super Soul Sessions platform. She invited me to speak at her live event. After that, went out into the world, I started getting letters from people who simply heard that talk, heard the idea and used it to create change in their life. One letter was from a woman named Jen. Jen wrote to me and said, hey, Marie, thank you so much for this talk. This is an idea that my mom has actually been trying to teach me. And in fact, I loved it so much we sat down and watched it together. But then everything changed. My mom, who is like my best friend, was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. And suddenly nothing seemed figureoutable. But she said, you know what? When I took a step back and looked more deeply, here's what I saw. I could figure out how to find nursing care for my mom, who lived in a rural area. I could figure out how to find foods that she could actually tolerate. And this was the big one for Jen. She could figure out how to get medical equipment so that her mom could spend her last days, and in fact her last five weeks on Earth, exactly where she wanted to be, which was in her own home. So Jen wrapped up by saying that she could say without a shadow of a doubt that everything was figureoutable. And she really thanked us for sharing this small idea that made a huge difference to two women living on the other side of the world that they were in New Zealand.

That's so good. You share so many other compelling stories in the book on the exact same thing of just I mean, the horrific stories of the woman in Africa and what she did. I mean, I've just, even right now, I just can feel it as I, as I recall it.

Are you talking about Lima Bowie stopping the war? Yeah.

Goosebumps, as you say. Just astonishing. And you made the point too, that she wasn't trying to get anywhere, you know, she wasn't, oh, win Nobel Peace Prize was on her vision board. It was do the right thing, be the best version of me and show up, you know, and believe that I matter and that my behaviors can make a difference in the world in the face of such adversity. It's just astonishing. And that actually leads us perfectly to the next idea I wanted to explore, which was your third chapter, the Magic of Belief. And again, you share some. You're a great storyteller. You share some great stories about the magic of belief and some rigorous evidence based science that demonstrates the point you're making. And then I'd like you to share some of that and then also bring it to the meta belief. You know, the meta kind of. I forget how you describe it. Almost like the key that unlocks your consciousness, Right?

Yes. The master key. Absolutely. Well, I think one of the things I wanted to Communicate in this book was just the severity, the depth, the gravity that our beliefs have in our lives. And one of the things that's interesting, you know, if you really just look around us right now, like, you know, the fact that you and I are talking on technology and people are listening, if they're listening or they're watching, you know, just the fact that these computers, Internet, electricity, like at one point in human history, none of this existed. And we kind of forget that, right? It just seems so obvious. But you go, wow. Every single thing around me right now at one point was just a thought, was just a belief. Someone had to believe that this was possible, and they brought it into reality. And we start to really look at the power of our beliefs. For me, it's like they're the tracks. They're like train tracks that underpin our lives. They determine where we go, how we get there, and whether or not we achieve certain things in the quality of life that we lead. And the Henry Ford quote is so cliched, but it is the truth. Whether you believe you can or you believe you can't, you're right. And I think one of the other things that we fail to really hone in on is this fact that all beliefs are a choice and choices can be changed. I often trot out the example that, you know, as a child, I believed in Santa Claus. So I was absolutely convinced that Santa Claus was real. I was also convinced the Easter Bunny was real and the Tooth Fairy. Like, I mean, I think I also believe that Smurfs were revealed at one point in my life, too. But then adulthood, right? And you shift your belief, and when you change your belief, you see a whole new world. The same thing is true for us as humans as it relates to every sphere of our lives. Our health, our relationships, our finances, our career, our athletic ability, our creative ability. Every single thing that we believe to be true is a choice. And so I think when we start to look at the power that our beliefs have in our lives, so much of self help, at least, that I've experienced. And by the way, I find value in everything that I do. But I remember throughout my coach training and just throughout my career, there's been a lot of attention given, like, okay, we have to identify every single limiting belief that's holding you back before you can necessarily grow into your fullest expression of yourself. And when I really thought about this hard, I realized, oh, my goodness, the reason that everything is figureoutable has been so powerful in my own life. And anyone I share it with is because of this. It is like the master key belief. It's like you don't need to play Sherlock Holmes and go searching in every corner of your consciousness for every little limiting small belief you have. I'm sure I still have tons of limiting beliefs, but they don't stop me because that one master meta belief that envelops my whole existence is this. Everything is figureoutable. So just in this book launch, I had a vision, Brian, about how I wanted to bring the book out into the world. And it went like this. Imagine if a Beyonce concert and a TED Talk had a baby and then threw a block party. I didn't drive to come up with that idea. That just kind of arose in my heart based on my history and my passions and who I am. Right. I've never done a concert before. I've never performed in one. I've never produced one. It sounded terrifying to me. Right. But because I have that meta belief that everything is figureable, I'm like, we're doing it, we're doing it. It's not going to be easy. I'm probably going to stumble. I'm going to make a lot of mistakes along the way. I'll probably waste money. Like, there's going to be all kinds of chaos that this will bring up. But because I am rooted in the belief that everything is figureoutable, I know we can do it. And we did. And again, I'm not saying that to brag, just as a tiny example of the power of having a meta belief and how if you have the belief that everything is figureoutable, you don't have to go writing down all your negative beliefs and changing every one of them. That could take you years. This saves you a ton of time and ton of energy.

Yeah. And I appreciate your humility, too, and you don't make a big deal out of it in the book. But, and I don't know if we discussed this already, but I didn't know you were valedictorian at Seton Hall. And just the everything is figureoutable while you're going there. First generation college student, which I was as well, at ucla, working, you know, a lot while going to school and then graduating at the top of your class is just astonishing. And how many, Maria, we briefly mentioned, Marie has something called B school, which is, again, Alexandra has done, you know, my right hand. Our head coach, Michael and his wife have done. How many tens of thousands of people have gone through your program now?

So B school's been around for over a decade. We've had over 55,000 graduates. So it's B School is online business school for modern entrepreneurs who want to not just make money, but actually make a difference. So it's about aligning the best of who you are, pouring that into a for profit business. Or we have nonprofits that come through the program as well and being able to execute on your sales, your marketing, your messaging in a way that is completely aligned with your values and your desire to make a difference.

And if there isn't, that has to be tied for first in terms of us trying to integrate our spirituality and capitalism in the world. So B School, just give us the URL real quick. Where do they go for that?

MarieForLeo b school.com. so just my last name and then.

Okay, awesome. Yeah. And obviously they'll find everything in Marie Forleo linked everywhere. But just want to give you a shout out for that because again, I appreciate your humility and what you have done is just awesome. And then I saw the little whatever that is kind of the teaser of your Beyonce meets TED Talk and I'm like, those pants. And yes, this is awesome. Let's do this.

And it was terrifying. So what Brian's referring to is we have something besides MarieTV. We have something on the offshoot that's called Marie Unplugged, where it's just more blogs, style. And I'm just taking people behind the scenes to show folks how things get done. Because MarieTV is a show, like an interview show, where that's the set and that's where we are. But all this other stuff, and I'm sure we'll be able to put a link to it, but I wanted to show people how terrified I was, how much I cried, how much I stressed out all the things that go into it was this specific creative process. But I think that's endemic of all creative processes where we find ourselves going like, what the hell did I get myself into? Why did I think I could take this on? And I had that thought, Brian, while I was writing this book, this book actually kicked my butt in such a huge way. And I said, isn't this awesome that I have such a belief that everything is figureoutable. And that's true and that's real for me. And simultaneously, while I'm writing this book, I'm having trouble figuring it out, which put me in the perfect emotional state to be able to empathetically connect on the things that we all struggle with. And I just thought it was cool that like, you know, again, the book was Kicking my butt in this exact.

Way, as it should. And you make the point again very wisely and very grounded. We say everything is figureoutable and. But we're not talking about sprouting wings today, right? Via the power of imagination. If you just think about it hard enough and long enough, then you're suddenly going to manifest your red shiny bike and your front porch. You are all about diligent, patient, persistent. Expect the obstacles, have the grit to move through them. And you do that with your metakee that you just keep on turn and everything is figureoutable. And you expect to face obstacle after obstacle because you're dreaming big and you're going for it. And you stress that so many times throughout the book and share your own face plants or vomit in the bucket moments. Again, it's awesome. And this isn't some ungrounded naivete. This is a very grounded, rigorous approach. And again, you bring in so much data on the science of how to cultivate the right mindset to make it happen. That's awesome. Let's talk about four letter words, which is you almost got into that a moment before. You're like, it's okay if you don't want to do something, but let's be clear, there's a difference between can't and won't. So I'd like you to hear your reflections on that. And then also I in the note, I threw in another four letter word, fail. I love your acronym for fail. And then we'll come back to fail.

So excuses are the things that can hold most of us back from figuring things out in our life, you know. So once you accept this notion that perhaps everything is figureoutable, then we need to talk about what stops us. And what I see stops us. And again, I'm raising my hand too. Are excuses those nasty little lies that we tell ourselves about what we can't do? And I've seen that excuses fall into really three main buckets. I don't have enough time, I don't have enough money, or I don't have the know how. And again, there's more than that. But those are kind of how they flesh out. And what I have seen for myself is the best way to kind of unwire my own excuses so that I can get real with myself and stop feeling powerless and start creating change is really looking at my language and understanding the difference between can't versus well. So here's the deal. 99% of the time, not 199% of the time, whenever we say we can't can't is really a euphemism for won't. And what does won't mean? Won't means that we're not willing to. That we don't want to make the sacrifice, we don't want to take the risk, we don't want to be inconvenienced, or we don't want to shift around our other priorities. So for anyone. And again, I raise my hand because I've said things like this to myself many times. I've said them to other people. You know, I. I can't get in better shape right now. I'm too busy with work. I don't have the time, or, you know, I can't go take that particular class. It's too expensive. I don't have the money, or I can't get started on X, Y, or Z. I don't even know how. So I've said things like this to myself. I'm sure you have. Everyone listening has. So the point is not to shame ourselves, not to berate ourselves, just to get real. Because when we get real, we have tremendous freedom, emotional freedom. And then you can make sober, clear choices about what you really do want to figure out and what you don't. And so the best way to get clear on this for yourself, the next time that you hear yourself saying I can't, whether in your own head or out to someone else, just replace it with won't and see if that feels more true. So, for example, rather than I can't get up early to get my writing done, I won't get up early to get my writing done. Rather than, you know, I can't find the time to get to the gym. I won't find the time to get to the gym, or I can't get started because I don't know how. It's. I won't get started because I don't know how. So in my own life, 99% of the time, whenever I say I can't, the truth is I'm not that interested. I don't want it that bad, Brian. I'll give you a concrete example. I know in my lifetime, God willing, that I'm on the planet long enough to see this through. I plan to reach at least 120. That's my goal. That's the one.

See you there. Let's do it.

So I'm shooting for that. Who knows what's going to happen, but that's what the aim is. I know that I want to and will speak fluent Italian. Now, I don't tell myself that I can't because I'm too busy right now because I'm launching a book or I have a business. And here's the truth. Do you want to know, like, when I'm done with my launch stuff or, you know, when I was writing the book and I'm done with my editing for the day? Sometimes, you want to know what I did in the evening? I had dinner and I watched Netflix. That tells me that learning Italian is not my priority right now. So it's not that I can't. It's that I won't. Because it's not what I want to do. Every single thing in my life that I have, it's because I made it a priority. And every single thing that I have not created yet or have not achieved or I'm not exploring, it's not because I can't. It's because it's not important enough to me. Does that make sense?

Oh, of course. The power shifts from I am not capable of to I as a sovereign individual who can do pretty much whatever I decide I want to do. I'm deciding I don't want to do that right now. Therefore. And I love the exercise you had to of write down. I can't, I can't, I can't, I can't. Then cross it out and write down I won't. I literally did that exercise, and it was just so cool to see it. It's such a mundane practice, but to see it and to see the truth of it. And as you said, it's not because you're. You're, you know, bad or lazy or whatever.

It's because you're being honest.

Don't want to do it.

Yeah, Right. And so here's the other thing. So can't is a word that when we use it, we actually start to put ourselves in a position of being helpless and powerful. That's what that word starts to evoke in any human being. Right? You're like, I can, I can, I can't. You start to get smaller when you use the word I won't. It's the complete opposite. You start to feel like, I'm in charge of my choices, I'm in charge of my life. This is what I'm saying yes to right now. And for anyone listening, be like, oh, I don't get this. The chapter in the book, please do the exercises like Brian said. When you start using the word won't or even another word, hey, I don't want to. That's not my priority right Now I don't care to. Thank you very much. All of a sudden you get all this energy and you feel a choice in your life. And I think, you know, going back to that point just before, no one who feels helpless and powerless really can go figure anything out. It's just not the right mindset. You can't make those two things match up. But when you use the word won't or I don't want to, or that's not my priority, all of a sudden you have so much more energy to devote to the things you do want to figure out. And that's where the magic happens.

I love it. And then to pull the thread on powerlessness, our sense and our relationship to fear and to failure is obviously one of the things that for a lot of us, all of us at certain points and for certain periods of time can demoralize us and make us feel, you know, disempowered, etc. I absolutely love, again, your stories around your own experiences with fear and failure, and then also your wisdom on how to move through it. Your acronym on fail is phenomenal. Did you come up with that?

The Fail. So faithful attempt in learning.

Awesome. Share that with us, please.

Yeah, so, okay, so one of the best frames on failure actually came from a beautiful MarieTV guest that we had. Her name is Judge Victoria Pratt. And she came to recognition through the work that she was doing through criminal justice reform in Newark, New Jersey. So I had Judge Pratt on the show and she told me this fantastic frame which goes like this, failure is just an event. It's not a characteristic. People can't be failures. And you know, when you hear something, Brian, you're just like, whoa. I was like, judge Pratt, that's the best thing ever. And of course, she's always been working with folks who show up in her courtroom, right? So she's the judge who have behaved in certain ways that they need to get in front of a judge. But what she imbued on them is the fact that, hey, this thing, this failure, that's an event. That's not you. That's not who you are. So this is a one time event. It is not a characteristic. Let's turn this around. And when I started to think more deeply about this for myself and in my own life, you know, it's funny, Brian, when I do interviews based on who I am and what I do, and I'm always happy to be on podcasts and things like that. And I remember there was one time where someone was interviewing me and they're like hey Marie, like you know, tell me about your biggest failure. And I froze like a deer in headlight. And it's not because I don't make mistakes. I make a lot of them all the time. But I realized that early on in my career I had heard this one little mantra. I'm very into mantras because I have to talk to myself a lot to keep myself kind of on track. This brain is nice and active. And I heard this mantra that goes like this. I win or I learn, but I never lose. And when I heard that, Brian, I latched onto it with all my life. Because when I was younger I used to love to categorize all the kind the times that like I messed up and I would just, just stack them and stack them and stack them and think, oh my goodness, I'm this horrible person. But moving on to your point, the acronym the I win or I learn but I never lose sets up the acronym. And here's why. Every time I make a mistake or fail, I'm always looking to extract the lesson out of it so that I can make it valuable for myself so that it means something and that I can keep getting better. And when I thought more deeply about the world, the word fail, I was like, huh? It's always a faithful attempt in learning. It's a faithful attempt in learning. And then I think failure as a concept is just incredibly short sighted. Imagine if you and I went to the movies, right? You, me and your wife, we went to the movies. We're so excited. We sit down, we're like eating our popcorn and the movie's great. And then all of a sudden in the middle of the movie, the characters hit conflict, they fall on their face, they face plant huge failures, everything blows up. And then the three of us got up and walked out of the theater. We're like those characters, they were failures. We didn't see the rest of the movie. We have no idea how that thing turned around. And I feel like for most of us, unless we have a sober view of failure, that's what we do to ourselves. So if we frame it as a faithful attempt in learning, we can depersonalize it. We can get a little bit of self distancing and recognize that it truly is not a glitch, but a must have feature in the figureoutable journey.

I love that line. And then to go to your metaphor of being in the movie theater, not only would we not walk out at that point, but we would walk out if they didn't have challenges. So the whole point of a hero's journey is you have to battle dragons. You have to leave your comfort zone, which you talk about brilliantly, that I want to bring up in a moment. It's the definition of the hero's journey. The first step is to leave the known community and in the process, you need to go battle your dragons. So we need you to experience the things that are going to make you face plant and feel like a quote failure. And then we need to know this whole faithful attempt in learning is a feature of the process. Not a bug and not a glitch. Common humanity, Brene Brown style. Nothing's wrong with you. It's a function of being human and a human committed to living heroically and trying to give your gifts and service to the world. So love the frame. And I want to quote riff on something that I'm going to quote you.

Yeah, well, I was just going to say what we spoke about earlier with the whole my Beyonce concert meets a TED Talk and has a block party thing. You know, so many times during that, I was like, oh, I can't do this right. Oh, but it was, and this is what I wanted to say about it, that besides the book and like the rest of my career, that whole process, Brian, was one of the single most creatively rewarding and fulfilling processes of my life. And most of it, the vast majority of it, was uncomfortable. Most of it, I felt like I was failing. So you cannot have those deeply joyful and explosively fulfilling experiences if you're not willing to be on your knees a little bit.

I love it. I love it. We're going to talk about that in two moments. I want to quote you, and then we'll move to the next one. And the quote is this. You say, fear is not the enemy Waiting to stop feeling afraid. Is that was one of those. There's many of them that just jumped out and just. Oh, yes, that's exactly it, you know, and then we have that alchemization of not only is it not the enemy, it's a reverse indicator. It's a sign that it's time to go, you know, and get into that discomfort zone, etc.

Yeah. So, I mean, fear, as we all know, is an evolutionary response. Thank goodness. Fear means we're all here due to fear. But I think outside of keeping us alive, meaning outside of an instance where it stops you from walking in front of a moving train most of the time, for most of us, our fear is actually directive. It's like a GPS for where our soul most wants us to go. But we haven't been taught how to interpret fear this way or how to really understand how to decode the message. And you can think about it like this. You know, if anyone listening has had a baby or an infant, Right? An infant cries. They don't have language skills yet, so they're gonna cry if their diaper is filled, they're gonna cry probably if they're hungry, they might even cry if they're elated. Like, again, there's not a lot of language skills. They're expressing themselves. There's a desire to communicate something, and you have to interpret the signal. Same thing. I have a beautiful little dog named Kuma. Kuma will bark his head off when the UPS guy comes. He will also bark his head off when he's excited to play more ball. Like, there's all these things, and I have to interpret the bark because Kuma doesn't speak English. Neither does fear. Fear does not have language skills. So if you consider her a friend, she is making you feel something to get you to pay attention. But the end result isn't always that something is dangerous. Like, what if she's going like, hey, over here. This thing, you've got to do it. Don't stop. Keep going. Like, she's doing everything possible to alert you to this notion that follow this fear. So that's one of the first frames. It's not the enemy. We don't have to punch it in the face, Right. We don't have to kick it in the teeth. We don't have to abolish it. And that's not even possible. Fear is going to be with us until we're no longer Earth. So that's one thing. So you have to learn how to manage it and dance with it and move with it. And I think, honestly, let it guide you to that which is going to be most beneficial to the growth of your soul.

Yeah. And then you should also share. So as a recovering fear addict, and obviously not fear, but almost like overwhelmed by fear, kind of. I used to be afraid of everything when I was turned on to the research on the simple mantra. I'm excited to take that neutral energy. I'm excited. Well, I can say that or not, and believe it or not, but you shared the Bruce Springsteen story. That. That was the coolest way I've ever heard it. Captured of. Yes. Before I go on stage, share that with us briefly, if you want.

Yeah, absolutely. So legend has it that the Boss, Bruce Springsteen, right before he goes on stage, he's got all of these Physical sensations, like, he's got knots and swirlings, and his stomach and his palms get really sweaty, and he feels a little bit woozy, like everything's moving. And then he says, wow, that means I'm ready to rock. That means that he is charged up and ready to go on stage and give the best performance of his life. And if you've ever seen the Boss in person, which I have seen him perform, you're just like, what? But those same sensations, the wooziness in the stomach or the sweaty palms or the feeling a little dizzy, those are physical sensations that we've been taught to interpret as fear and anxiety and that they mean something bad. And I think hearing that story about how the Boss interprets those same physical sensations, those signals, as a sign of readiness, as a sign of excitement. I remember once learning, you know, what if fear was excitement with the brakes on? And I was like, I love that. Josh, my man, teaches a course primarily for actors. Sometimes it's for speakers as well, called Committed Impulse. His dad was a theoretical physicist who worked with Einstein, and Josh's dad really taught him that all things are just made of atoms that vibrate, right? So everything around us is atoms vibrating at a different frequency. And one of the things that Josh teaches his students is the fact that, like, what if all the sensations, like your stage fright, your fear, your anxiety about getting up and being in front of people and performing, what if you can actually just pay attention to those physical sensations and even give, rather than saying, oh, my God, I am frozen with fear? What if you called it something ridiculous like, I'm feeling really sushi right now, or I'm feeling really noonie in my belly, and you just completely change this frame. It's like, why do we have to believe what we were taught, that all these sensations are bad and that we should shy away from them? What if they're actually just creative fuel that we've never been taught how to tap into?

Amen. And then the simple avenue of fear is excitement with the brakes on. And also, I think it was Fritz Perls who said, fear is excitement without the breath. So to simply breathe into it, and then I'm excited. Let's just get to work. This is what we train for, you know, and it's a challenge, an opportunity to shine, etc. Beautifully said. Again, we can talk about that for a weekend. And I know you do in all of your work. So I was going to bring up the 42% thing. I don't think we need to go into it in depth. But the idea that we increase the odds of success by 42% by simply writing down our goals, and you make the point so perfectly. But that's crazy.

Yeah. Talk about this in the book, so. You know, it's funny, Brian, I think this is true for all of us, right? Sometimes we think we know things and we say we know things, but there's a big difference between knowing something, maybe conceptually or intellectually, and actually practicing it to the level where you get the benefits from what you know. And so there was a study done by Dr. Gail Matthews, professor of psychology at the Dominican University in California, and she did a study, and there was people from all ages, all walks of life, all different professions, and she found that we human beings are 42% more likely to reach a goal if we simply write it down. Again, I know this sounds so basic. I know it sounds so fundamental, but how many people listening right now, if you're honest, the most important thing that you are to figure out right now in your life, whether it's a painful problem or it's a creative dream, do you have that thing written down by hand? And is it clear and in front of you? Frequently? And when. I mean frequently, I mean, like several times a day, where you're looking at it, where you're staring at it, where's the main focus? And again, you can look up the study by Dr. Gail Matthews. You can see it. If anyone told me in any domain of my life, like, hey, Marie, you know you're going to go do this. This simple thing to do is going to increase your chances of success by 42% all day, all day long. I will take those odds. And so again, I know it sounds really fundamental, but anyone listening, if there's anything important to you that you're working on, please, for the love of all things holy, write the damn thing down and don't write it down and put it in a journal and put it away in a drawer, like have it in your day planner. And here's the other thing, Bright. I mean, people can do whatever they want, right? I would highly suggest, if possible, for people to write by hand. There's some great research around how we learn better. We retain more information when we actually write things out versus type them in a digital format. But I think something more deep happens. I think that we slow down and tap into some deeper truths and some more profound sources of intuition when we write by hand. I do think there's something a little bit mystical and magical about writing by hand, especially in the technological world. We're in right now. So I would encourage everyone listening to write it down if you want to.

Make it real beautiful. Well said. And again, we can talk about that for quite a long time. We talked about the. In kind of different contexts. The comfort zone vis a vis what you call the growth zone, which by definition feels uncomfortable. You leave your comfort zone, by definition, you feel uncomfortable. We've got to embrace that. There again, is the reverse indicator. And then the expansion of the comfort zone, where the things that used to freak you out as you consistently do them, you don't need to go crazy outside your comfort zone, just incrementally push it out. But in the process, all of a sudden, those priorly terrifying things now become something. That's just what you have for breakfast, right?

Totally. I mean, when it comes to this, speaks into this notion of. So when you start before you're ready. So that's another idea that we talk about is a lot of times most of us are like, I'm not ready yet. You know, I'm not experienced enough. I don't have enough credentials. I don't know what I'm doing. And we kind of hold ourselves back because we want to stay in that comfort zone. And I think a great little. I don't even really like the word hack. It's not one of my favorite words. But a great way to kind of overcome that procrastination or that fear is to practice starting before you're ready. And when you start before you're ready, you are going to be uncomfortable. You're going to feel naive. You're going to feel like an outsider. You're going to feel like you don't know what you're doing, and that's fine. I think it's important for all of us to remember is that every pro once started as an amateur. So anyone that you admire, if they're an artist, an entrepreneur, an athlete, they're a writer. Who knows? Again, it doesn't matter in what domain of life. Anyone who's remotely good at what they do, when they first started, they sucked. They promise. I know I do. But anytime I start something new, I'm like, I'm probably going to be pretty shitty at this. And that's fine, because that's what you do when you're a beginner. So I think getting comfortable being uncomfortable, and I love the little adjustment you made there, you don't have to be wildly uncomfortable. You don't have to put your financial health at risk. You don't have to put your family at Risk, you just got to stretch a little bit outside and then you get in that groove and all of a sudden you notice capabilities that you had that you wouldn't even have imagined had you not done it. But I think the practice there is to keep starting before you're ready. And the best way to do that is to make it an active practice. So rather than looking online, if you can get yourself into a class, something that is interactive, where you're talking and being with other humans, so you have that ability to have other people see you and you can be seen. That's where I think a lot of the most important growth happens.

So good. All that is so inspiring. It's a big part of our work is optimizing, is obviously becoming the best. Well, optimized equals optimus. Latin optimus, which means best. And you do that incrementally, you know, little plus one plus one plus one express the best version of yourself. Again, a longer chat there, but I want to kind of wrap up the chat on your book. We obviously just scratched the surface of it. Again, can't recommend it enough. Everything is figureoutable. Now I want to talk about you a little bit more in the context of. And we'll just do a quick little recap of things. So. So fundamentals, you jokingly said, you know, that sounds fundamental. Well, we shine a bright spotlight on those fundamentals and say, look, most people want to go out and do the shiny, fancy, newest thing and forget that if you want to build a tall building, you better have a deep foundation. That's where it all starts. So we focus on six fundamentals. Eating, moving, sleeping, breathing, being present and prospering. I'm curious what your most fundamental basic practices are. What comes to mind for you? Maybe the top one or two things that just keep you plugged in and in your game. That may have been the most transformative for you over the last X decades as you've been optimizing.

Yes, movement. For me, the movement piece, dance has been a huge part of my life. I think that we all have so much wisdom in our bodies, and I think our physical vessels are just these creative channels that in a society that kind of pushes us more and more towards being sedentary. And, you know, many people spend eight, sometimes 10 or 12 hours a day sitting and in front of a screen. They've just lost touch with this incredible physical vessel that has so much innate wisdom. So for me, movement specifically in the forms of dance. But I also like walking around, you know, going for swims, like any way that I can move my body. That for me is one of the fundamentals. And whenever, if that takes a balance, right, if for some reason I get off my game, I can feel it. I don't think as clearly. And obviously there's a lot of research and science that backs this up. I mean, what happens in your body from a chemical and hormonal place, when you exercise, your brain is going to be clearer, everything's going to feel better. From your mental and your emotional health, it just all lights up. So movement is one of the fundamentals. Meditation has been really important for me. One of the top ADHD doctors in the country, I remember years ago I went to him because I was just having so much trouble. I was like, gosh, why can't I just focus on one thing? Is just trying to kind of check all the boxes and make sure that everything was okay. And he's like, you definitely have the gift of adhd, but you're doing a really great job of managing it. And one of the things that helps me tremendously with that is meditation. So when I meditate, I strive to do it 20 minutes a day. I'm not always successful. I'm going to be real with you. Sometimes I'm in a taxi and I'm like, oh gosh, I can get in a five minute meditation right now. And, and I'm going to be grateful for that and I'm going to use it. Meditation is definitely one of the fundamentals and I cannot recommend it enough. There are so many different schools of thought. Doesn't matter. You find the train of it that works for you, that really resonates for you. But I think it is absolutely one of the things that can transform the way people feel about themselves and then how they respond to life. And then I would say the third thing, the fundamental for me is joy and play. Like I kind of put those two together. Right now we're in the middle of our book tour, which I'm so grateful to do. And it's also intense. Like I'm on planes basically almost every day, sometimes twice in one day. And I'm actually this weekend I said, guys, we're taking this one day that we have off. We're going to the amusement park. I love going on roller coasters. We're like doing all these fun things that have absolutely nothing to do with anything but joy. And for me, if there's not enough play and joy in my life, I wither like a little flower that has no sun and has no water.

Just everything is so good about that. And your stories on your dance career are so good. You know, I was there with you. That's just epic. And then you remind me. I've been talking to Tal Venturehar quite a bit recently who wrote Happier Taught two of the largest classes in Harvard's history. And he has a line. He says, not exercising a day that you decide not to exercise is like taking a depressant. You might as well take a depressant. And then John Ratey at Harvard, you know, exercising is like giving yourself a little bit of Ritalin and a little bit of Prozac. Boom. This is the chemical cocktail, etc. So I love your practice there. And then meditation. So powerful. And I love the look. We don't need to be perfect. Pick a practice, show up, but then show up again and again. Again, not perfectly, but just take the time to do it. And then joy. What a great fundamental practice. Not just a byproduct of doing these things, but an actual deliberate practice. So inspiring. Again, so much there. We'll leave that as our kind of. We're all about seizing the day, too. We'll let that be kind of our answer to how we seize the day in some ways too. Carpe diem style. Although, actually, I'll just ask you directly, is there anything in particular you do to kind of be on for the day beyond those basic fundamentals?

Else music. So music for me is that other piece. I was actually. I was gonna dive in, but I was fun to be respectful. The Joy piece is also, like. So my team and I, we carry around, like, little ue boom speakers. You know, the little speakers that you can kind of take anywhere. And that is everything. Like, before I go on stage, before even, like, just getting ready for the day, like, to listen to a fun playlist even for 10 or 15 minutes, it changes everything. And I think music is so incredibly therapeutic and so healing. And to just have music around, even if, like, you're feeling a little sad or you're feeling a little depressed, which, again, all of us feel those things, so that's okay. But if you ever feel lonely and you're like, oh, it's like, put on some favorite music. I feel like it aligns and it tunes us, gets our brain working in a direction, makes us feel connected and a sense of joy and from that place, so much magic and happen.

That's so good. It's so funny, too, because as I mentioned in our exchange, I recently burned my hermitage. So I spent five years in the hermitage. Right then I was just no input, super deep, you know, reading, writing, teaching, repeating. And one of the things I did was I drive around and it was silence. I was just quiet and reflective, etc. Well, since burning the Hermitage, music has reentered my life. My Alexandra loves music. She's always playing and the kids have dance parties and stuff, and I participate, but it's not like a fundamental practice, but. But now it's like I'm having fun with this real, engaged new identity or reborn identity. And music is a key part of it. So I love it. There's just that balance of joy, right. That comes with the alignment.

It is. And I think too, for everyone listening, it's like, what is getting going. It's like remembering. And you know this so well, Brian, so do your viewers, but I don't think we can ever hear it enough. Josh and I talk about this for like 100 years or less. Likely we're all going to be powder, like, boom, done, dust. And to have. You have to have a good time while we're here. All this isn't going to last forever. My mom always tells me this again, she's in her 70s now. She's like, you better be having as much fun as possible, because I'm telling you, you know, it gets tougher as you get older. She has a little bit different size to her, but I appreciate the reminder that she gives me that it's not going to last forever. And when it comes to that Joy piece and it comes to this, dance parties with your kids, which are amazing, it's like we have to. To squeeze all the joy out of life that we possibly can, because it really is a gift. And while we're here, we got to make the most of it.

Right on. And that perfectly leads us to the final point I want to discuss. You're all about making a difference in the world. So everything you're doing with B school is about aligning with your passions in service to the world. And you talk about that a lot in the book and throughout your body of work. One of the themes for our work that we do with Optimize, again, it's optimize equals optimus equals best, which I then connect the best version of us, independent of any comparison, not perfect, but just the best version of us being expressed is what we would say is Aristotle's Eudaimon, that good soul is being expressed. And for us, that's not enough. You got to actualize to transcend yourself and be a hero. So we come back to the ancient Greek ideal of being A hero, which literally means to be a protector and to have strength for two. And the hero secret weapon is love is a big theme of our work. We're doing a lot of work, which I want to talk to you about separately in 2020 on this idea of the modern hero. So I want to hear from you, what comes to mind for you when you think of the modern hero heroine? Who is that? How would you describe that person?

Oh, goodness. Well, there's many of them out in the world. But I'll tell you this, I've seen this firsthand recently and I think it doesn't have to be necessarily big or epic in scale. I know sometimes when people have really huge dreams, they're like, oh, I want to change this aspect of society, or I want to heal this or just completely change everything. And those are awesome. We love those big dreams, we love those big sky, just moonshot kind of goals. Amazing. But I think there's also equal power in making a difference in the small ways of showing up and being kind and generous. So I think some of the virtues of the hero, generosity, a sense of service, a sense of like, looking around and seeing who might need a little extra attention and appreciation, who needs to feel seen right now and acknowledged and reminded that they matter. And those things can be done in the simplest ways. From how you show up in your grocery store and you interact with the person who is checking you out and taking care of your food. Like noticing their name, if they have a little name, pin up calling them by their first name. And if you ask them how they are actually being interested in the answer, you know, for little things, if you're driving around and you notice there's just people being butt heads and you're like, I'm gonna let this person in front of me. I'm not gonna contribute to that energy. That can be a little bit aggressive. So for me, I think the modern day hero is walking around with a really big open heart and open eyes and seeking to serve. Not necessarily in a way that's gonna stroke your ego, but in a way that's gonna to help people feel what they most want, which is to be seen and heard and appreciated. And those, those things don't cost anything, but they mean the world.

Beautiful. I appreciate your demonstration of those exact ideals and absolutely, of course, agree. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for taking so much time. So everything is figureoutable. Obviously, Amazon box bookstores go get it wherever you get books and then they're gonna find you@marieforleo.com is the best place.

Yes. Marieforleo.com. that's the place that we have all the information. And if people are, you know, into social media, Instagram is usually a place that I'm having the most fun.

Right on. All right. Thank you.

Awesome. Thanks.

Big hugs. See ya.