Heroic Interview: How to Think Like Leonardo da Vinci with Michael Gelb

You're listening to Think like da Vinci, an Optimal Living interview with Michael Gelb and Brian Johnson. So excited to be talking with Michael Gelb today. He's written a number of great books and he's one of my favorite authors. He's become a friend of mine over the last several years, and his how to Think Like Leonardo da Vinci literally changed my Life. It was 11 and a half years ago. I can remember where I was in Lahore, California, reading this book, and just page after page of ideas of how I can optimize my life. This is right after I sold my first business and spent several years just reading and writing and thinking. And this book, how to Think Like Leonardo da Vinci by Michael Gelb, was really the catalyst for so much of what led me to be where I am today. So thrilled to have you here, Michael, and really excited about our chat today.

Thank you.

Well, let's jump right in. So you've got how to Think like da Vinci. We've got Innovate Like Edison. We've got your most recent book, Brain Improving youg Mind as yous Age. All of it comes down to a few primary ideas that I really, really resonate with. And I want to start with the idea that you mentioned in the da Vinci book, that genius is made, not born. Can you tell us about that?

Yes. Well, the truth is it's partly born because I think my publishers actually added that on the back cover of the book. And I didn't actually say that details. You know, some genius is born. And here's the good news. We're all born with some genius. The secret is to discover your genius, to find out what your gift is, and then to figure out how to optimize it. And when it comes to nature versus nurture, which is one of the classic issues of science and understanding ourselves as a species, there seems to be an emerging consensus that genetic endowment is around 50% of the determination of what cards were dealt. Let's put it that way. You can think of it that way. How you play it is the other 50%. So it's not. Genetics is not, as some people used to think, the primary or dominant determinant of your destiny. It's a big factor. Some of us have different gifts than others. You know, Mozart was clearly born with more musical potential than almost anybody ever. I have a friend here in Santa Fe who won the Nobel Prize for physics in 1969, and he was doing complicated mathematics problems when he was five years old. He clearly was born with a very special gift. Sometimes people's gifts are really obvious, like Mozart's gift for music or my friend Mary Gellmann's gift for math and physics. Sometimes our gifts aren't quite as obvious or clear, and then we need to do a little more work to figure out what they are and how to develop them. But the good news is that we have tremendous potential to discover and develop those gifts. And that's obviously my passion, is helping people do that.

Well, it's interesting too, because even on that, just to unpack that for a moment with Mozart, Carol Dweck talks about this in Mindset of, you know, was it his musical ability that he was born with? Was it the fact that he was born the son of. Who was it Leopold. Yeah, right. Who was a music teacher? He worked so hard, his hands were deformed. I mean, the 10,000 hours he put in by such a young age is extraordinary as well. So is that kind of an example of the. Yes. And that it's the. Both at work there.

Exactly. And also. And also it's not just that his father was musical. It was that he was born into a zeitgeist of music. Music was part of the essence of the age. It was valued. It was a time of tremendous development, of an awareness, of an appreciation for music. So the time one's born into luck, faith, chance, we have to be aware of all of these factors. But the one that's most important is the one that we actually have control over, which is what we do with our abilities. And that. That is a tremendous, tremendous potential that every single person has.

So then when you. When we think about that, we think about how do we translate that potential into actualization? And you're going to kind of summarize that in a few minutes. How would you describe that? Like, what are the key tenets that you've learned that helps us tap into that latent genius within all of us?

Well, the first one is really recognizing that you have the potential. And it also really helps that contemporary neuroscience now supports this notion overwhelmingly. I was recently speaking at a conference in Australia called Mind and its Potential. And one of the featured speakers was VS Ramachandran, whose generally considered to be the greatest neuroscientist in the world. And he was asked in an interview by this very tough science journalist, isn't neuroplasticity the idea that we can develop, change and grow through our own efforts? Isn't neuroplasticity being oversold? And I have to tell you, I kind of held my breath for a minute. What was he going to say, because this guy has a lot of credibility. He paused. He's a very thoughtful guy. And then he responded, no, it's not being oversold. Most of us dramatically underestimate our potential to learn, change and grow. So realize, and I think it's helpful for a lot of people to realize that this is not just what some people dismissed as New Age positive thinking. This is. Well, as the New York Times science section put it in a review of Dr. Norman Doidge's book called the Brain that Changes Itself, the power of positive thinking finally gains scientific credibility. So the first principle is to recognize that you can learn and change and grow, and that you have an almost unlimited potential for learning, changing, and growing. Because if you realize that, if you believe that, if you understand that, you are much more likely to do everything else I'm about to tell you. So that's where the da Vinci principles come in. And what I did with how to Think Like Leonardo da Vinci was to read all of Leonardo's notebooks. And I read them with a very childlike open question in mind. And the question was, what is he trying to teach us? You know, most books about Leonardo talk about what a genius he was and how incredible he was in science and art, and it's wonderful, but I'm fascinated by all that too. But it just occurred to me that maybe he has some advice for us. And sure enough, his notebooks are filled with advice for his students. And what I did was to translate that advice into contemporary language and then back it up with practical exercises that people can do to bring these principles to life. So the first principle is curiosity. And Leonardo was probably the most curious person who ever lived. And as we read his notebooks, he urges us to question and to question our questions. And if you think about it, this is our birthright of genius. I mean, you have a 12 month old at home, probably a little early to start asking questions, but as soon as your baby can talk, what you're going to be hearing for, well, since I expect you're going to be such a fabulous parent, you're going to be hearing this for the rest of your life. An endless stream of questions. And unfortunately, what happens for a lot of people is they go to school and they learn that answers are more important than questions. And this shuts down this aspect of our birthright. But Leonardo urges us to rediscover the childlike curiosity that is our birthright. Once you've reawakened that passionate curiosity, you then learn the discipline of critical thinking, really thinking for yourself, and it's so cool. Leonardo gives actual advice on how to do this. He says, you have to discipline yourself to look at important issues from multiple perspectives. His word for it was demonstrazione. Demonstrate it through your own thinking. That's why he always. He did every sketch of a flower. For example, in the book, on page 50, there's a reproduction of Leonardo's three views of a Flower. And I put it in there because it's illustrative of his method of demostrazione. He says, look at things from at least three perspectives so you can say that you've really thought about it. Then he guides us. The third principle. He guides us to sharpen our senses, to become today, the contemporary popular word for it is mindfulness, mindfulness of the senses. But Leonardo was advocating this and practicing it 500 years ago. Then he guides us to embrace uncertainty, ambiguity and the unknown, which is very challenging, very challenging for people in our complex world. But more important than ever, he's probably history's greatest exemplar of the balance of logic and imagination, art and science, which is the fifth principle. In contemporary language, we'd say use both sides of your brain. And one of the absolute simplest, best, most useful practical ways to do that is to learn mind mapping, which I guide people to do in the book. And I've been a passionate student and teacher of mind mapping for, wow, gosh, since 1975, when I used it to write my master's thesis, which became my first book. Then the sixth principle, balance the body and mind. So, you know, we know Leonardo is a great artist and scientist, but he also was an amazing athlete. And he gives advice on health and wellness and wholeness that is as relevant today as it was when he shared it 500 years ago. He advises that we eat healthy, wholesome, freshest food, create a pleasant, aesthetically pleasing environment to dine, share food with people you love, have a little red wine with dinner, get moderate exercise. He says, learn to preserve your own health. He says, avoid grievous moods and keep your mind cheerful. 500 years before we figured out psycho neuroimmunology, the notion that our attitude affects our immune system moment to moment. And then the seventh principle brings it all together. Connezione. Everything connects to everything else. Leonardo's guiding us to be systems thinkers. He's saying, look for relationships and connections, see the big picture and the details. And one thing I've found a lot of these great minds. The same thing is true of Edison, but even more so of da Vinci. They have a tremendous love and respect for nature. They see the Earth as a living whole. To Leonardo, the Earth was actually a living being. And the ultimate Conanzioni for each of us is to connect our sense of our highest purpose, our personal mission, our deepest values with what we actually do every single day. And so a lot of the guidance, a lot of the exercises in how to think like Leonardo are really designed to help people bridge that gap.

Beautiful, Beautiful. I mean, this is, I'm creating a course now on goals. And, you know, the scientists today talk about that right vertical coherence among, as you so beautifully said, our purpose, our mission, our values, and what we're doing today. Are we in integrity or not? And, and I feel like, again, we could talk about this all weekend. There's a few things that come out for me that I really want to hit on now. I want to talk about the Hundred Questions exercise. One of the ways that you really helped me tap into that curiosity and literally that exercise has probably been the most impactful exercise I've done and really kind of putting my energy into a focal point and then also mind mapping. Would love to hear your quick thoughts on that. But let's go to the Hundred Questions exercise. Can you share that for us and why that's such a powerful exercise?

Sure. Well, I have to tell you, I'm not sure why. I just know that it is. My theory on why it is is that it burns through your habitual thinking. And if you really do the exercise, which is very simple, it's just to write down 100 questions. And from the time you start, you don't take your pen off the page, you just keep going writing questions. And they can be any kind of question. They can be, you can start with what you think is a profound question or a simple question, what's for lunch? What's the meaning of life? Or anything in between. But generally what happens for people, And I've now been sharing this with people for many, many years and doing it myself. You're in your regular consciousness when you start, and by the time you get to the 40th or 50th question, you're starting to get a little fatigued and you're thinking about quitting. And some people write, why am I doing this stupid Hundred Questions exercise. But the key is if you persevere, most people seem to break through this barrier of their habitual mind and they shift into a different kind of consciousness and expression, and they surprise themselves by getting to the key questions of their lives. And this is so powerful, the power the process of questioning. My sense is that the quality of our lives is determined by the nature of the questions that we ask every day. And if we use the model of the triune brain, the reptilian, mammalian and human or neocortical elements of the brain's structural organization, I like to ask and reflect myself, what percentage of my questions every day are driven by my reptilian brain? What percentage of my questions are driven by my mammalian brain? And what percentage of my questions are driven by my human brain or my neocortex? So you know, you get on you. I was just in a people mover at the Atlanta airport when I was changing planes on the way home. And you get on the people mover and you instinctively ask the question where should I stand? You don't necessarily verbalize this or articulate it, but you can see everybody adjusting their position every time anybody walks in or off. Because our reptilian brain is asking the question am I safe? What's the right spacing? It's also, it asks the question, what's for lunch? Where's the nearest bathroom? And these are important questions. The mammalian brain asks questions like what is my status in relationship to these other people who are my friends? What's the nature of my relationship? Like what's my social standing in a given situation? It's the sort of pack bonding type questions that we ask. And they're important too. And the neocortical brain asks, or can ask, how can I be of service? How can I bring more truth, beauty and goodness to the world today? It asks questions around creativity and altruism and this. Just imagine if we could ease humanity into 1% more neocortical thought and questioning on a daily basis. Anyway, the 100 question exercise is one of the tools along with the 10 power questions. And just generally paying attention to the nature of what you're really curious about because that's also going to determine what you're really good at.

Yep. And then I love the way too that you had us do the hundred questions. And I forgot that it was I did it in one sitting. But I forgot how you just articulated of don't let your pen stop, just keep on doing it. And that's pretty much how I did it. And, and then I loved how you also had us look at them and to notice the themes that arose and to also then kind of pull out the top 10 most powerful questions for us and then to rank order them. And in the philosopher's note I did on it, I actually was just checking them out. I Hadn't looked at them in a while. Those 10 questions, the top 10 questions that I did in June of 2001, June 8, 2001 to be precise, are precisely the questions that are guiding my life today. It's a stunning exercise. It's just really so cool.

But you know, see, that's because you have curiosita. That's why you're such a good student.

Yeah. And a good teacher. A good teacher helps.

That's cool.

Yeah. Well, that's great. So great minds ask great questions. That's another one of my favorite thoughts from you. And, and so curiosity. That's just great. And then you're obviously one of the world's experts on creativity and how to learn and how to really innovate and your mind mapping techniques. It's another one of those things that has totally transformed my life. And how I map out our business strategy, how I map out a book and the big ideas, how I map out preparing for this chat and this interview. Can you tell us about mind mapping and why that's such a powerful way to tap into our, our latent potential?

Sure. Well, mind mapping was originated by my good friend Tony Buzan. I recently had dinner with him in London just last month. And Tony will tell you that he was inspired to create mind mapping partly by his study of the notebooks of Leonardo da Vinci. And mind mapping is a way of generating and organizing ideas that integrates the analytical, logical mind with the more imaginative, free flowing, intuitive mind. And it's a tremendous tool for generating, organizing ideas and making connections you'd never make otherwise. And I think the way to understand it best, I mean, there's a simple, a simple concept that everyone can take away and apply to their lives to be more creative. And mind mapping is just a tool that lets you apply this concept. And I learned this concept from Leonardo da Vinci. It's in his notebooks. Remember I said earlier, he gives advice to his students. So this is advice to his students. And what you've got to really love about it is do you ever go to a meeting and you have a slightly wacky idea and you make a disclaimer first to your colleagues, you say, hey, bear with me, this may sound weird. Here's Leonardo, maybe history's greatest genius. And in his notebooks he basically says, bear with me, this may sound weird. But then he says, you will nevertheless find that it is useful in quickening the spirit of invention. And the idea is this. He said, you must look at abstract forms, like smoke that forms from a fire. Or clouds in the sky. He says, let your mind go free, think of a thousand things, divine landscapes which you may then reduce to their complete and proper forms. So what he's saying here is, let your mind go free. Be inspired by nonlinear impulses. Think of lots of things, no wrong answers. Then analyze it and put it in order. So I've summed this up in contemporary language. The guidance is simple. Generate first, then organize. Generate first, then organize. Most people went to school, learned to make outlines, tried to put things in order before they generated their ideas. And thus most people suffer from what I call premature organization. And premature organization prevents conception. But Leonardo teaches us to generate first, then organize. He says, let your mind go free, think of a thousand things. Hey, for a thousand years in Europe in the Middle Ages, did anybody say, let your mind go free, think of a thousand things? No. At that time, this was such revolutionary, stunning genius. It's the birth of what we now call creative thinking. It's advice that Leonardo gives to his students in his notebooks. And in contemporary language, it is generate first, then organize. So the beauty of mind mapping, instead of starting at the top of the page and working your way down Roman numeral I, abc, and so on, you start in the center with a creative doodle that represents your topic, and then you go off in any direction you like. So you're immediately freed from that tyranny of that top down, hierarchical, prematurely organized way of thinking. And here's the best part. After you generate everything and go off in different directions and use lots of color and imagery, creative doodling and so on, then you step back and you look at it. You say, okay, now, as Leonardo says, let's reduce to complete and proper forms. In other words, now let's organize this. Let's say, what are the most important ideas I've generated, what order should I put them in? And what you'll discover is that that part is actually easy. It's almost like it's self organizing. So mind mapping is a tool, it's a way, it's a method to embody this profound Da Vincian principle of generating first, then organizing.

Brilliant. Just so inspiring. And again, your book, you unpack that some more. So if people are feeling it, check out how to think like Leonardo da Vinci. Absolutely wonderful. Let's talk about the. You talked in my notes. I had this idea of the body of a genius. You mentioned it briefly, but I just want to restate it, that Da Vinci was not only an amazing genius artistically, scientifically, he was also incredibly physically fit. He was an athlete. I never knew that. And that's something that I think, as you say in the book, we think of the four eyed genius kind of nerd who's not strong, but you really kind of reorient us to. Look, if you want to express genius, you need an incredible amount of vitality and energy. And you only get that by honoring your body.

The old notion of a healthy mind and a healthy body is being validated by contemporary research. We can't really separate body and mind, at least in a laboratory. And I like to think of it, the integrating factor here is energy. And it's having both volume and refinement of energy. So the way you live your life, the food you eat and the mindfulness and appreciation with which you eat them, the amount of rest that you get, the nature of the exercise that you do, and fundamentally, most importantly, your attitude about yourself and about life, your emotional state, all of these things affect the quantity and the quality of your energy. And it's pretty obvious that the quantity and quality of your energy is going to affect whatever you may or may not be able to create. So I advocate generating the strongest, fullest energy and then developing and refining it. And this has been my personal passion throughout my life. And I'm even more into it now that I recently celebrated my 60th birthday. And people who watch me every day say I seem to have more and better energy than ever before and I intend to improve. I'm on A. I'm on an improvement plan for the next 60 years.

Right on. That's just so great. Let's talk about. I want to get to your fundamentals too, but I want to hear you comment if you can quickly on goals and process. You talk about do we want to be a 100% committed to achieving clearly defined goals, or B, recognize that the process of living every day is of greatest importance. Or C, or both. Can you talk about that?

Absolutely. Well, bingo. The answer is C. Do you see? And this is the yin and yang of goal setting and goal achievement. It is the paradoxical nature of our existence. All we have is this moment. So yet goals, the nature of a goal is about some future state. And there is a technology for setting goals. And what's great is the universal principles of effective goal setting are becoming pretty widely known. You want to set a timeline. You need to make your goals specific. You have to measure your project progress. You need to be accountable for them, make them relevant to your purpose, your mission and your values. Feel with the depth of your being, the fulfillment of Your goal. Experience the goal as already complete. And savor in this moment all the senses and the realization of your goal as though it's already a fade of fill that experience, that imagined experience with as much vibrant sensory life as you possibly can so people, more and more people understand those universal principles of setting goals. And the good news is if you do everything I just suggested, it actually feels really good right now to do that. But there is this balance between creating a more abundant, harmonious, healthy future for yourself and those around you and just making sure that you're savoring every moment as you do it.

Yeah, wonderfully said, thank you. And then so two more, two more things. One, your fundamentals. What do you do on a day in and day out basis that helps you stay plugged in. Do you have any fundamentals that you'd like to.

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Well, I actually, I pray and meditate every day. That's how I start every day. So I set my intention and I've just developed my own approach to prayer and meditation, informed by many of the world's great traditions. And I've created my own way of just setting my intention and focusing the day to start the day. And over the years, the practices that have influenced me the most, the Alexander technique, which is a method for developing poise and grace and ease in movement every day. I trained originally for three years as an Alexander Technik teacher and that was the subject of my very first book, the work of Wilhelm Reich, which I studied very intensively with a master teacher for many, many years. In terms of the ability to honor and be in touch with one's actual emotions in a real time basis, I think most of the misery of the world comes from people not knowing what they feel, not knowing when they're anxious and acting out unconscious emotions and anxiety in ways that are detrimental to themselves and others. And this is the missing link in a lot of so called spiritual teachings is they skip the importance of the presence of feeling. So that's a really important practice that's just integrated into my life. And for many years I trained and taught the martial art of aikido, which was also a very important practice to me. But I've now moved on to my biggest new passion. Well, new, I've been doing it intensively for the last five years, but I'm just beginning in Tai chi and qigong. And I now have three qigong masters that I'm working with and practicing these, integrating all the teaching of these different masters into my own ideal practice every day. So I do about an hour to three hours of tai chi and qigong practice every single day, and it seems to be working.

It can't hurt.

And then, of course, you know, my other practices involve cooking fabulous meals, collecting and enjoying and sharing exquisite fine wine, listening to beautiful music, and just appreciating beauty. I mean, I'm talking to you now. I'm looking out at the snow over the Sangre de Cristo mountains. Amazing sun. At the same time, it's just. It's so exquisitely beautiful. And so, yeah, the appreciation of beauty is, for many people in our wacky world today, a real missing link. Which I'd like to encourage people to just deepen their sense of just even the smallest thing. Flower, light, beautiful piece of music, taste of 85% dark chocolate melting in your mouth, the eyes of your beloved, the smile of a stranger. I mean, there's just so many beautiful things every day. But you have to have your. You want to be oriented towards that appreciation. And it's not just that it strengthens your immune system and your endorphins when you appreciate beauty, but I think it also is one of the really important keys to living a creative life and inspiring creativity in whatever field you aspire to.

Incredibly inspiring. Thank you so much for sharing and practicing and embodying those ideals. This has just been so inspiring. My final query for you, if you were to offer kind of your number one tip for people who are listening to this and who are passionate about optimizing their lives, what would that number one tip be?

Oh, yeah, I come back to generate first, then organize. That's the key to. To releasing the amazing creative potential that you may or may not be aware of. But if you follow this one, it's so simple and so practical, but it's a real discipline. It's like the 100 question exercise. I mean, you're in a real generation mode. When you just write down those hundred questions and don't lift your pen, that's generating. It seems illogical, it seems ridiculous. Why am I doing this? Just keep doing it. Generate, generate, generate. Then you step back and you organize them and you say, what are the most important? What are the themes? Just as you discovered, the themes present themselves, the critical questions present themselves, and then you can organize your life around them. So generate first, then organize.

Brilliant. Well, Michael, thank you so much. So love your energy, your laugh and your passion and wisdom, and I can't wait to see you again. Next.

Thank you so much.

Talk to you soon. Big hugs.

Cheers.

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