Heroic Interview: Show Your Work with Austin Kleon

You're listening to show youw Work, an Optimal Living interview with Austin Kleon and Brian Johnson.

Hi, this is Brian. Welcome back to the Optimal Living Interview series. I'm really excited to be chatting again with Austin Kleon. We just talked to him about Steal like an Artist, which is the first in a series of books on how to optimize our creative lives. The second is show your work 10 Ways to Share your creativity and get discovered. We touched on it a little bit in the last chat, and I'm really excited to explore some of my favorite big ideas. Welcome back, Austin.

Hey, good to be back.

All right, so show your work. In Steal like an Artist, you mentioned how that one was more autobiographical in the sense of things you wish you knew when you started your creative process. And you said something along the lines of show your work is more of kind of a. This is what you're. You're kind of navigating and figuring out. And you joke that people often ask you, you know, about self promotion and how to get themselves out, and you hate talking about it, yet it's a really important topic. Tell us about the high level. Show your work, why it's important, all that good stuff.

Yeah, so I, you know, when I was on tour for Feel like an Artist, that was the big question I got asked, just like every other author, you know, it's like, how'd you do this? How did you get published? How did you grow an aud? Like, how do you do your blog? You know, and that's all kind of, you know, questions about self promotion. And I just thought, you know, I'm just going to roll with this and I'm going to write a book about self promotion for people who hate the very idea of self promotion. And what show youw Work is about is there's a particular way of working that I noticed in the people that I admire. And what they do is that they're. They're connected. They're. And they're sharing little bits and pieces of their work over time as they're working. They still have this kind of. They have figured out a way to get their work done, but to not totally disappear for eons before they come back and kind of share. They're kind of just doing these little daily bits and pieces. And most of it is their process. It's like, you know, like for a writer, it might be like what they're reading or what they're thinking about or, you know, that kind of thing might not even be their actual work, but they're sharing these little bits and pieces of their creative life and their process over time and what that turns into as an audience that's then kind of primed for their work when they actually want to release something. And so what I wanted to do is write a kind of operating manual for this way of working. And that's why I called it show youw Work. And that the big idea of show youw Work is to not wait until you have this perfect, finished, polished product that you want everyone to know about, but to start kind of sharing little bits and pieces of your creative life before something is ready. And the big misunderstanding of the book is that you, like, show a bunch of rough drafts and like, you know, oh, I got to show my work before it's ready. And like, that kind of thing. That's not necessarily what the book is about. That's fine if you want to do that. But really, the book is about rethinking your whole process in terms of what's useful or interesting about it that you could share with people. And so one of the things I really poke writers about is like, look, if you're a great writer, you're working on writing, and you don't, you know, you can't necessarily show your rough drafts because they're not ready yet. They need to be shown to like a. Like a writer's group or your editor or something. But you are a great reader because every writer is a great reader. So I'm like, you should be sharing the things, you're reading things, the things you're inspired by, that kind of thing. And so that was really. So that's kind of the basic idea about the book.

Again, 10 ideas on how to do that. And I love so many of them. I want to start with kind of what I have at the end of my notes on it and a little episode that I did. And I just love it. You said, if you want followers, be someone worth following. Tell us about that.

So this is really. This has come up lately because a Twitter friend of mine, J. Maureen Henderson, did a post about the big advice she gives students. And her advice to students is be interesting. Be an interesting person that other people want to help. And that sounds hard. That sounds right away like, oh, I have to be interesting. That sounds counterintuitive to what we talked about in our last chat about Steal like an Artist, where we said, you know, be boring so you can get the work done. What J. Marine Henderson is talking about is what I. What Lawrence Weschler talked about one of his books which is the way to be interesting is to be interested. And so if you want to be an interesting person that people want to be around, you have to be interested. You have to be interested and curious and you have to be interested in other people and that kind of thing. And so basically I'm going off the rails here, but that idea of if you want followers, be something, someone worth following, there are all these people that just show up and they're like, pay attention to me. But they aren't actually thinking, like, what do I have to offer people that might be interesting or useful? And that's always my rubric. You either have to be interesting to people or you have to helpful. And it's best if you can be both. If you can be interesting and helpful, then you've got it all nailed. But a lot of people think about when you. And that's what the book was about, is trying to get people to think about sharing, first of all, to forget about self promotion and just think about sharing. And think about sharing the things that you're interested in in a way that's useful or helpful. And thinking about the act of sharing is not. Not in the way we think of it now, which is really just publishing. You know, a lot of people think sharing is just like, oh, I have this bad. Here's my. Like I had this stupid idea. Here, let me tweet it. Like, the real act of sharing is one of generosity, in which you're thinking about the person on the other end and you're thinking about what you're sharing and how you're sharing it and how that person on the other end might receive it or what's valuable about it. And so that's. That. That was really. So if you want to be. If you want followers, you have to be someone more following. That's like kind of this, like, it sounds so simple. But you've met all these people, right, that just haven't made that jump yet because they think that they are inherently interesting. And it's like, well, you might be, but you have to put the effort into actually, you know, sharing your curiosity and sharing your interests in a way that people can connect with.

Yeah, that's great. And in a word, as you said, it's just, how can you help? Right?

Yeah.

Be of service rather than all the latest Internet marketing, this or that or whatever. It's like, well, how are you going to serve profoundly? How are you going to make someone's life better today?

To be useful is really the thing that I think more young People and people of all ages should ask themselves, how are you being useful? And Louis CK recently, he quoted this line from a Spencer Tracy movie. And he said, it's hard to be unhappy when you're being useful. And I love that idea. It's like, you know how. And you know, for an artist, you know, art is not necessarily practical. You know, like if you're a musician, you know, your use is that you make music for people to listen to. It's just very simple. But then there's also a lot of artists who, they don't believe that art is for other people. They think it's self expression or that it's for themselves and they don't make art for other people. And I'm always kind of when I talk to those artists, I'm like, that's fine. Then you should keep it as a hobby. Because part of putting your art into the world is about presenting it in a way that connects with other people. You might have made it for yourself, but now you have to turn it around and think of it as being for someone else. And that's the really tricky part of the game. And someone, the other day, they said, well, Adele doesn't have to show your work. She's like, Adele just disappeared for three years and now she's got her new album, 25. And I said, well, Adele doesn't need to get discovered either. Like, Adele is already discovered. The premise of show youw Work is that you're doing something that you want people to know about. And so that's the kind of underlying premise of show youw Work. If you're already a celebrity, you know, you might not need to show your work so much.

It's the seasons we were talking about too, before our chat. You know, there's different seasons. Different times of our lives call for different things, or our years for that matter. So just identifying where you are and what level of kind of hustle, in the best possible use of that word, is necessary for where you are and.

What your goals are at the time. Because, like, for instance, I just put out this journal, the Steal, like an artist journal. And I actually didn't share very much of that when I was making it. For one thing, it was a very short publication schedule. But on the other hand, I didn't need to because I was already doing things like sending out my newsletter and tweeting and sharing stuff I was interested in. I didn't necessarily have to share the process of that journal, although maybe I should have more, because then maybe more people would know about it, you know, but there's seasons. It's just like what you said. There's seasons to your work, and there's different times for sharing different kinds of things. And the book kind of goes into that, too, and that, you know, your project will be in a different. Will be in different phases, depending on what point in the process you're in.

Yep. Well, what's. Step back, and I'm not sure which one of your 10 ways this came from, but do you still read the obituaries? Is that still a practice of yours?

Yeah, so I don't. I think I stole that from Myra Kalman. Myra Kalman, the illustrator and artist, talked about how much she loved obituaries. And I started reading them every day, and I thought, you know, a lot of people come up and they say, I'm scared, I'm afraid. You know, there's even a book called Art and Fear. It's kind of a classic creativity book. You know, I'm afraid, and I'm like, you know, you should read the obits every morning because those people are all dead now. But the reason they have an obituary is they got up every day and they went for it, you know, and they lived. And that's what you realize about obituaries, is that they're not actually celebrations of death. They're celebrations of life and lives lived. And I think that reading the obituaries every morning is a way for me to remember what we talked about in our last episode, which is every day is Groundhog Day. You know, you get to get up and you get to do it again, hopefully, if you're lucky. And you have to sort of seize the day, as they say.

That's amazing. And outside of that ultimate the show's over, there's not a whole lot to fear.

Right, Right. I mean, we're all headed there, and so there's a kind of liberation in that. Well, you either go for it or you don't, you know, and these people that came before you, they had the same choice. And look at how they lived and what choices they made and, you know, act accordingly.

So, super practical question. Where do you source them?

You know, I usually. I get the Times every day, so I usually just read the New York Times obits. But there's some really great ones. The Economist every month, or. I forget why. I think it's every month the Economist does great ones. If you search Twitter is a great way. Just search obituaries and then look for people. Because, you know, the LA Times has their own obit desk, you know, New York Times, the Guardian in England. And what you can kind of do is you can make a Twitter list of obits, obit bots and stuff. The Times is really great too, because they'll tweet out old obituaries. That's another thing you can do is you can get a. Actually, my publisher, workman, they put out a yearly obits collection. And so they'll pick like the best New York Times obits from like 2013 and put them all in a book. And that's a really fun way to read obits too. But I love them. I just love. They're like mini biographies, you know, Biographies are super fascinating.

Yeah, that's awesome jumping around here. But we were talking about your wife and kids before we hopped on today, and I believe it was your wife who said something funny about trolls and their poop in your living room. Can you talk to us about that?

Yeah, my wife's always good for a one liner. When thinking about owning your own space. There's a place and time for criticism. And criticism is great when it's invited and it's from people you admire and you respect. But there are trolls out there. And so, you know, one of the things that I really, that I do not, I tell people, like, do not hesitate to use the delete key and the block button online. There are people out there that are not interested in your work and they're not interested in helping you, and they just kind of want to do what Michael Caine says in Batman. You know, some men just want to watch the world burn. You know, so there are people that. And the quote that your wife or that you alluded to from my wife is that if you, if someone took a dump in your living room, you wouldn't let it sit there, would you? You would clean it up. And that's kind of how she feels about, like blog comments and really kind of brutal online interactions, is that you should not let that poop sit in your living room.

That's so good though, right? I mean, just to be clear and you make some standards, tell us, tell us who we want to be open to feedback from or from whom we want to be open to feedback. And you delineate that pretty nicely, I think. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Yeah, I think that, you know, and I might be riffing off the book a little bit here, but I think that it's great in your, in your life to have. I think it's good to have a more private circle, a group of friends or people that you share your work with first when it's in its really tender kind of nascent phases. So I think, for example, it's great to have a writer's group. If you're a writer, should find a group of people that you can get together with every week and share material, and that can even. You know, in my case, I've actually never had a really great writers group. I've always had my wife. My wife's my first reader, and she's the person who has to, you know, see everything first. And then, you know, really, you should. You know, when it comes to criticism, you really want to think about where, you know who the criticizer is and what they do and where they're coming from. So when you think about criticism, you have to think about the source. And so if it's coming from someone who has your best interests in mind, then great, like, listen to it and see if there's anything valuable in it. But a lot of people who just come off the street, like, it's not necessarily productive to listen, you know, like Amazon reviews. I mean, like, if I read all my Amazon reviews, which I do read them occasionally, but, you know, talk about just a mess of, you know. And so, so much of criticism, again, is. It's kind of like advice in that a lot of criticism is autobiographical, that, you know, when people, for example, read a book. Everyone gets the same physical object when they get a book, but for every person who reads the book, there are. There's a different reading experience. So you might hand 100 people the same book, but you'll get 100 different experiences. Because everyone brings their own thing to a book, their own experiences, their own past, and then they're all looking for something particular from the reading experience. And this is even true in our own lives. I've read books that I loved when I was 13, that I read now, and I think are garbage, and vice versa. There's books that were really boring to me when I was younger that now I find really wonderful and illuminating. And so that idea that reading and experiencing any kind of creative work, it has a lot to do with context and what the viewer or the audience or the reader brings to the experience. And so it's just a tricky dance.

Yeah, I love it so much. We can talk about there, but just the idea of. It's almost like an ink blob, right? A Rorschach test of what someone sees in the work is saying a lot more about them in many cases than it is about the Work, right.

Absolutely. And that's the beauty of art, is that. And communication at all is. Well, you know, art is not necessarily communication. It has elements of it. That's a whole other argument. But when you're doing creative work, I mean, the person that comes to it is half of the equation. You know, you might think that. And this is another problem that artists run into is they think they're running the whole show. When, you know, really, when you write a book, a book does not come alive until someone reads it. And so sometimes people will come and say, well, what do you think is the. You know, what is it? What. What makes an. What makes a writer? You know, what makes a writer? And I say the right readers. And they kind of like, oh, you know, but that's true in that, you know, and you can look on down the line, you know, Herman Melville puts out Moby Dick and, you know, he sells, what, two or three thousand copies and, you know, no one knows what to do with it. And he dies penniless and, you know, kind of impoverished. And then the 1920s roll along and all these artists or all these writers are rediscovering his work, and they say, hey, this Moby Dick book is amazing. And then all of a sudden, it's one of our most popular, most beloved books. And Herman Melville's problem wasn't that he didn't write a great book. It's they didn't have the right readers yet. And that's not something that's always in the hands of the artist, you know, which is great.

And it brings us to the kind of two other points. One, your number two idea is to think process, not product. And then your number 10 is to stick around and be at the game long term. Can you talk to us about. And I'm so passionate about the distinction between process and product. I'd love to hear your perspective on it.

Yeah. So when we think about, you know, it's real simple. When an artist talks about art and artwork. When artist says the word artwork, she could be talking about two different things. There's the object, there's the artwork, the finished painting, you know, framed and hung on the wall. And then there's the work, the work of art, which is, you know, preparing the canvas, going and getting inspiration, drawing in your sketchbook, applying the paint to the canvas, framing it, you know, getting it to a gallery, letting people know about it. So that first part we talked about, that finished thing is the product, and everything around it is the process. And traditionally, there is a book called Art and fear that I mentioned before, traditionally they lay it out the traditional way of thinking about it, which is you never, ever, ever show anyone your process. You only show the product, the finished work, because audiences are uninterested in the process. They only want to see the product. And I think that might have been true in an era in which media was controlled by only a few people. And it actually wasn't very easy to share your process. But we live in an age now in which every artist, every person really has access to this little portable multimedia studio in their pockets, smartphone, and we have the ability to share anything we want at any time. And so basically, we're living in this world now. And not only do we have the tools to share our process, but I think people are very interested in the creative process and they're not interested in just the product. They're also interested in how the product was made. A great example is in food. If you think about. A lot of people don't think about food as a creative thing, but I do and think about the sustainability movement. You know, there's that great Portlandia skit where they're asking where the chicken came from and like, oh, is it cage free? Was it fed gray? It's like, so in food in particular now, the way food is prepared and where it comes from is a really big deal. That's the process. And for years and years, there was that whole thing, oh, you don't want to see how the sausage is made, you know, but if the sausage is really good and the process is really good, it makes the sausage even tastier. And the big. You know, the big. Another food example I use is barbecue. You know, I live in a barbecue town, Austin, Texas, and there's a guy named Aaron Franklin who has a barbecue joint where there's a line out the door every day of about two or three hours. And Aaron actually has a show on PBS where he takes people through every portion of the barbecue process. He shows you how to, you know, buy a smoker and modify it, and then how to pick meat out and then how to smoke it, how to cut it, how to prepare it, you know, all that stuff. And a lot of people I think would say, well, why is he teaching people how to do barbecue? Isn't he creating competition for his product? And I always tell them, look, if you watch all those episodes and have Aaron explain to you what goes into making a world class brisket, you will gladly pay him the 20 bucks a pound he's charging. So I think the big idea in there is that sharing your process can actually make your product more valuable.

That's awesome. So practically speaking, I want to talk to you too about the kind of artists attention to the process, not just in the showing it, which obviously is the context in your book, but just the focus on it artistically as you create. You talk about the fact that there are no overnight successes and that we need to focus on the days. Right. We need to focus on the actual process of showing up. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that.

Yeah. I just blogged this quote by Brian Eno that I thought was really beautiful. And he's been such an inspiration to me. When I was writing show youw Work, I was trying to. I really, I said, if Brian Eno wrote a book about self promotion, what would it be? And that was why I like having these little background. Sometimes I give myself little prompts to keep me on track with book projects. So I'll make little sentences like, okay, well, if Brian Eno wrote a book about self promotion, what would he write? And that keeps me on track. So that kept me on track for show your Work. But Brian Eno was talking about how, you know, he wanted people to know that I'm going to try to keep it clean here. Beautiful things grow out of poop. And what he was saying about that is that, you know, the most delicate seed, if it's planted in the right environment, turns into a forest. And yet the most exquisite seed, if it doesn't have the right context, it dies and withers. And so what he was saying is that, you know, when people start out in their creative work, it's always messy and it's always. There's an, an element of the unknown to it and it's a lot of trial and error and it almost always starts out bad. But what Brian wanted people to know is that if you believe that people like Beethoven just had these perfect, brilliant, formed ideas in their head and then they just wrote them down on paper and that was it. You will lead your life thinking that you're not one of those special people and that you can do good work. But if you start from the assumption that all artists kind of have to start from zero and that art is always difficult, the process is always strenuous, and it always starts out from poop, so to speak, then that liberates you. David Rakoff, he said the same thing. He said that writing never gets any easier. And that writing is always like trying to engineer a meal out of rotten food. He said it Always starts out bad. And you always. You just refine and refine and you keep working and you just kind of get to something. And so being okay with that process, you know, being okay with them, you know, that the way those things unfold, it's a really important thing.

So good. And again, it goes back to our last chat, Ira Glass, and the gap and taste and skill. You're never going to close that gap. Completely commit to the process, Groundhog Day style, and do the work. What is your favorite idea from the book we haven't talked about?

Oh, let me think about the book. I love in that book there's a. But there's a concept that goes along with the Groundhog Day idea, which is chain smoking. There's a way of working that I've noticed in artists who have really productive careers, they chain smoke. And they don't literally chain smoke. What they do is they take the end of one project and whatever still burning, and they use that to light the end of the next one up. And so the way Joni Mitchell put it is she says, whatever bothered me about the last album, I'll use that as a way to start the next one. You know, And I love that idea of to keep whatever's. To take whatever smoldering from your last project and use it as to start the fire the next. Because I think for me personally, what has happened, and again, this is one of those things that's really difficult for me. It's been really hard personally to finish a book and then think about what the next one is. And I think if you chain smoke and you don't even have to do it on a project level, you can do it on a day level. Like Hemingway would always stop in the middle of a sentence for the day so he knew where to begin the next day. So he would stop right in the middle of a sentence and then he'd go to bed or have dinner and fall asleep or whatever. Then you get up the next day and you just start again. And I love that idea. And that goes back to the Groundhog Day thing, where you wake up every day and you do the work. But think about chain smoking. Think about how you can keep those embers from whatever you're doing, how you can use those to light up whatever you're going to do next.

That's awesome. Just keep the momentum going. That was one of my favorite ideas as well. Steal like an artist. Show your work. We've obviously barely scratched the surface. Check them both out. I think you will love them. Austin thank you. People are going to be able to find you best place austincleon.com yeah austinlikethecityleon.

K l e o n.com and then.

We talked about it in the last chat but I want to share it again Weekly email Top 10 things that you think are cool is what you send out.

Yeah, my favorite thing that I do and kind of one of the quickest ways to get to know me is to sign up for my weekly newsletter. Every week I just send out list of 10 things I think are worth sharing and sometimes it's my own work, a lot of times it's the work of others, but it's always I try to be useful or interesting and it's my favorite thing I do.

Hi, this is Brian. A lot of people don't know all the stuff I do beyond these free videos I share on YouTube. So I thought I'd do a quick video to give you an overview of our membership program that you can get access to and get a ton of other stuff. So here's a quick look. 10 bucks a month Join the Optimal Living Membership program. You get Instant Access to 250 philosophers Notes on some of the best optimal living books out there. Old school classics, Positive psychology, Modern stuff, Mindfulness, Peak Performance, purpose, neuroscience, wealth, etc. What you may not know is that in addition to the PNTV episodes, I create PDFs on all these great books. So six page PDFs. Let's take a look at one of them. Joseph Campbell, you want to figure out how to live your hero's journey? Well, this is a great place to start. I basically pull out my favorite big ideas, riff on them, connect them to other books and other ideas and help you apply this wisdom to your life today. That's what the PDF looks like again. We have 250 of these on all these different great books and then I record those PDFs as an MP3 so you can listen to that MP3 while you're on a walk or working out or doing some errands or whatever that is. Philosopher's Notes. A lot going on there. And then in addition to Philosopher's notes you get access to optimal living classes. Optimal Living 101 idea here is that all those great teachers come back to the same big ideas again and again and again. I distill those ideas into classes. Super practical, fun, inspiring classes ranging from Habits 101, Confidence 101, Getting Stuff Done 101 Meditation 101, instant access to all those classes and then Future classes include Relationships 101, Energy 101, Purpose 101, Business Goals, etc. Those are our full length classes. And then I create micro classes. Two to three to five minute little bursts of wisdom on my favorite great ideas from these great books across the domain. It's that you want to optimize in your life. So we have dozens of these so far. I create 50 new micro classes every month and 10 new philosopher's notes every month for 10 bucks a month. So we're blessed to have thousands of members who are enjoying the program and sharing some incredibly kind words with us. And super simple. 10 bucks a month. Cancel anytime. Would be honored to be a bigger part of your life and I appreciate your support. And here's to optimizing and actualizing.