Heroic Interview: The Living Experiment with Dallas Hartwig & Pilar Gerasimo

Foreign. Hi, this is Brian. Welcome back to the Optimal Living Interview series. Today I'm thrilled to be chatting with Pilar Gerasimo and Dallas Hartwig. We are going to have a different episode than normal today. I'm looking forward to reading Pilar's great book, which will be coming out hopefully in the not too distant future. And Dallas's book, it starts with food, literally changed my life here. He and I are going to connect on that in the near future, and I look forward to his future books. But today we're going to focus our energy on talking about their new podcast, the Living Experiment. But before we do that, I want to share a little bit more about each of them. Pilar is one of my dearest friends, one of my favorite human beings on the planet. We are blessed to have her as our godmother for our son, Emerson, which is something that gives tears my eyes even as I just say that she created Experience Life magazine, which is one of the coolest, most grounded, yet passionate looks at how we can optimize our lives. Millions of people are engaged in that content on a monthly basis and just extraordinary human being. Pilar, thanks for being here.

Thank you so much, Brian. It is an honor and a pleasure.

Yeah. And Dallas, as I mentioned, wrote it starts with food, and he also created Whole30. And reading this book, I was reluctant to read the book, frankly, because I was a super all in vegan. Jellicoe Vegan. We got to a place where it made sense for us to read it and it just opened my eyes to a new way of being and just literally transformed my life. So longer conversation there. But I'm deeply grateful for you and your work, Dallas, and excited to chat about all you're up to now.

Well, thank you very much for those kind words and I'm happy to be here.

Right on. Okay, well, let's start at the top. The Living Experiment. What's that all about?

I'll take a first crack at it. So Dallas and I share a lot of points of view, and one of our shared points of view is that anybody who's choosing to be a healthy person in the context of the current culture we live in, which is pretty predominantly unhealthy, is having to go against so many conventional norms and patterns that they effectively are experimenting on a daily basis to figure out how is it possible, possible to be healthy in the world that we live in now. So, as we say in the introduction to our podcast every week, you're not only conducting a living experiment, you really are a living experiment. Each of us who's making this wholehearted attempt is kind of experimenting. We're experimenting on ourselves and each other all the time, and the world is experimenting on us too. So it's kind of a day at a time experiment that we all get a chance to conduct however we see fit. And we're really celebrating that as an empowered choice and as an opportunity to see what happens. Dallas, you could probably add to that.

Yeah, I think one of the other things that we both really share is that knowledge is power and knowledge about yourself is power. And we really want to empower people to make more educated choices about their lives. And a lot of that comes about not necessarily through academic learning or through taking some guru's advice, but it comes to what actually works for me because we respond to things totally differently as individuals and we have to try different things. So the living experiments that we conduct on ourselves more readily inform the choices we can make going forward. And we just become progressively more informed, sort of captains of our own ship. And I think that that's true across a really broad range of topics. So we're going to talk about the kind of obvious low hanging fruit and heavy hitters of, you know, food, nutrition, healthy movement, sleep, some of these kind of things. But we're also going to get into a little more kind of off the beaten track topics and pragmatic solutions and suggestions and just some kind of interesting things. We'll talk about sexuality and we'll talk about various physiological things that happen in phenomena and we'll talk about, we'll probably down the road start having people on who are experts in their own field and interviewing them, you know, kind of in subsequent seasons. So there's a really, really wide range of interesting stuff we're going to get to. And I think we're, I think we probably start with some kind of heavy hitter things and we're going to kind of explore and get kind of get broader and deeper at the same time as seasons progress. So I'm super excited about all this stuff.

I am too. You know, one thing I would add is that this emphasis on exposure, experimenting, there's a really conscious choice to make it an active experience. I think so many people feel overwhelmed by how much raw information and data hits their radar every day. It's like, you know, this is good for you. No, it's bad for you. And it's just this very noisy data war. And we really want to encourage people to try some things out. So that's another really important focus of the show. Every show we introduce a topic and talk about it for a while, share our insights and our own experience. Experiences and our insider information because we're both something of, you know, experts in our fields and we know a lot of people even smarter than us that we steal information from all the time. But we end each show with experiments that people can run in their own lives. And, you know, little things, little tweaks that you can try out or bigger changes that you might be willing to give a shot. Always with the emphasis of like, you know, you test it out, see if it works for you.

That's so cool. And as you were reflecting on that, I realized that almost four years ago now when I read your book Dallas. One of the things that we actually said to one another, because at the time we were weeks away from having our son, Emerson, and we, we said to ourselves, literally, Emerson's amazing quote, all life is an experiment, the more the better. And that was actually the guiding wisdom and philosophy that allowed me to kind of make the leap into experimenting with a different nutritional approach. So I have goosebumps as I say that, because a big part of my work is it's all an experiment. It's all one big game. How do we just put on our lab goggles and get our clipboards out and just test things, right? And just make those micro improvements, see if we can optimize a little bit more day by day, aggregate that compound it over time and see if we can create some magic, right?

Totally. And that's really what the whole 30 is about, right? Like the whole 30 is of course, this short term experiment. And so the opportunity that Pilar and I have is to take some of those same ideas and some of the same philosophy that all three of us really share and discuss it and discuss a really wide range of topics, but based on all three of our personal experience and experimenting in our own lives.

I love it. I want to step back in a moment, but before we do, I just want to talk a little bit more about the format. So I love the idea of having an experiment takeaway, small or large, give me a deeper sense of kind of the time length, give us a deeper sense of the time length, et cetera. How's that going to work out?

Well, we'll see how it goes. And in the first season, because we're sort of digging into these bigger topics and doing it for the first time, most of these shows are about 40 minutes, I would say, on average, and we sort of introduce the topic batted around. Some of them are really multi topic Shows, too. Like there's one we do on seasons where Dallas is presenting a really cool model for how to shift to your daily habits based on the cycle of nature and the different days, day, Day lengths and the weather and what's going on in our bodies. And so in that show, we kind of walk through all four seasons, which, as you can imagine, takes a little bit of time, but it's really salient, practical, applicable stuff. And so I don't feel like we drag too much. Even in the longer shows. We devote, I would say, about 30 minutes to the discussion of the topic and exploring what we know, respectively, about that we don't always agree on. Absolutely. So, but mostly we seem to come out in the same places around what makes good practical sense. And then the experiment section usually lasts 10 minutes of the show. And during that period, we present our own preferred experiments, or at least one, sometimes more than one that we'd love to see people try. Typically, these are experiments we have already run on ourselves, so we can tell you with some confidence that they are effective enough that we're not just playing, pulling them out of thin air to make sport of people. But that's kind of how the show breaks down. And as Dallas said, you know, we'll see what we do in subsequent seasons, including, I think, some shorter format shows that we might even do individually. You know, Dallas is going to be off at a conference or I'm going to be in an event. We might choose to interview other folks. We might choose to just have little missives that pop in that are kind of mini versions, really inspired, I think, by your micro classes. But Brian, which I think are so great, sometimes the little tidbits are really rich. So we expect to build a pretty diverse library of content under the Living Experiment brand, working both collaboratively and individually, but always around this sort of shared sense of purpose and this shared focus of experimenting on yourself in the context of some pretty significant challenges.

I love it. And so that step back that I mentioned before, I want to step back and talk about kind of the macro experimentation you guys have been doing, the willingness to kind of take the next steps in your hero's journey, which I think will be really meaningful. I'm personally excited and interested in hearing this story and also just connecting it to our work in. In this show around purpose 101. And so I just love to hear, however you want to frame that a little bit on your background and then where you are and kind of what went into your psychology as you experimented on your own life to get to this point.

Yeah. Dallas, you want to start?

Sure, yeah. So I have, you know, Pilar and I have actually interestingly sort of similar childhood experiences, but mine basically started. My parents were essentially homesteaders when I was born. So the first five years of my life we didn't have electricity and didn't have running water and very much lived this sort of homestead life of large garden and oil lamps and outhouse and very, very sort of normal circadian rhythms. And I think that those set of values that they instilled in me and that we actually lived intensively for the first few years of my life really kind of set a trajectory for me where connection with the natural world and awareness of natural rhythms really has always been a part of my value set. Even when I went to conventional schools and went off to college and started living on my own and certainly lived a much more conventional style of life, those things were still kind of embedded in there. And back in 2006, I played a lot of high level competitive volleyball and had a shoulder injury that wasn't healing and kind of in the same time frame, stumbled across a research paper that introduced the idea to me that food directly affected what was going on with your inflammatory process. And I did some self experimentation with changing food because at the time I was the very prototypical healthy eater with lots of whole grains and low fat dairy and vegetables. It was pretty good by my own standards. And doing some self experimentation profoundly and rapidly changed the long standing shoulder inflammation that I had, which really got my attention. And that really was my first really conscious foray into self experimentation. And then I've just done dozens and dozens of different things since then, and then rolled some of that personal experience from 2006 through 2009 and kind of became the backbone idea for the Whole30 program, which of course is a 30 day nutrition experiment. It's an opportunity to learn about yourself. And now I'm interested in kind of going well beyond nutrition and continue to experiment myself on all areas of my life, but then share and discuss those experiments on our podcast.

I love it. What an amazing first few years. And in and of itself, and then the parallel with you, Pilar, and kind of your background, I'd love to hear you kind of connect.

Yeah, well, like Dallas, I grew up on kind of a back to the land farm in the 70s, and I spent the majority of my early childhood living in an environment where we grew our own food and made our own clothes and built our own houses. And it was probably about the healthiest environment you could have grown up in and as a kid. And of course I did not appreciate that at all. Thought we were weird. And so as I got older and had more exposure to urban environments and normal lifestyles, I really tried hard to fit in and to become more normal. And I rejected a lot of the kind of what I saw as sort of a hippie granola upbringing that my mom had offered us. And the more I tried to conform to the societal standards, the more I tried to look and act and eat and live my life like a so called normal person, the less healthy and happy I got. And it really proceeded as kind of a spiral through high school and college with all of the attendant body image issues that I think a lot of young women in particular tend to struggle with at those ages. Although now I think that's happening more and more with young men too. So by the time I got out of college, I had achieved my goal of becoming normal. But I had inadvertently become pretty unhealthy and pretty unhappy and did not like that. I felt like I really wanted to regain both the health and the happiness and the mindset of hopefulness that I'd had as a younger person. So for me, it really became another. An experimental journey of experimenting on myself to see what would work. And initially I tried all the conventional stuff. I read health and fitness magazines, I listened to talk show experts. I was into every new diet or diet food that came out. All of it made me worse. Less healthy and less happy. Until finally I really had to go back to like, wait a minute, I was healthy and happy once. What was I doing then? And really, it was that simple. I started integrating back into my life, my now urban, adult, you know, regular working day life. Some of the stuff my mom had taught me about eating whole foods and spending some time outdoors and being active and being connected with other people. The other thing that happened was that I started using some of the skills I'd learned in college about how to research big ideas and kind of went back down to more, I guess, significant sources of research papers, heavier, weightier books as opposed to glossier, you know, sensationalized magazines. And I took it really seriously. And I would say it took me a good five or six years to kind of figure out what reliably worked on my body. And by the time I did that, I was just completely confused as to why no one was making it easier to get this information. And that was a lot of what led me to start Experience Life magazine, which was about the time that you and I originally connected. Brian back in 2001. So, like Dallas, my personal hero, or Shiro's journey led directly into my, you know, really significant career decision to make something that hadn't been made before because I felt like the world needed it.

And then that brings us to somewhere around today, and you guys decide to create a podcast together. So why together versus individually?

That's a good question. Well, mostly because I'm actually not a very good entertainer on my own, and I riff on other people's stuff. Well. But I'm actually really bad at keeping things going organizationally myself, and I have an enormous amount of respect and enthusiasm for Polar's body of experience and insight. And I think that our sort of complementary perspectives on the world make actually for a really, really awesome arrangement where we both have broad and deep areas of understanding. But if you put the two of us together, and I think that becomes a really, really comprehensive viewpoint that I'm super excited to share with people.

Oh, that's so great. Thanks. Dallas and I feel the same way. You know, Dallas and I met at a functional medicine event through a mutual friend who just said, oh, you guys have got to meet. You're gonna just. You're gonna go gangbusters for each other. And the more we talked, the more we realized we had a lot to talk about. And we kept saying, God, we should be recording these conversations. And then Dallas said, hey, would you ever want to have a podcast? And I was like, you know what? I would love to. I did radio back in the day. I had a show on an FM station here in the Twin Cities called Get a Whole Life on a Saturday Morning. Talked for an hour topic, and it was such a fun, spacious way to communicate and share information. Moving into, you know, print journalism, which I did for 15 years with experience, Life magazine, and then digital with Huffington Post, I really. I appreciate that media, those media a lot. And there's so much effort involved with producing this thing on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. It really. It kind of hampers your ability to explore topics in great depth and breadth. And that's one of the things that excited me about the podcast. And then, yeah, working with Dallas as opposed to by myself, I could not get excited about doing a podcast by myself. I tried thinking about it, and it just went nowhere. I like having conversations with people, and I really like having conversations with people that think in different ways than I do and bring new information to me. And so I learn a lot when I talk to Dallas, and I always really appreciate that. I also really value the conversation between men and women around these topics of health and happiness. I think too often the health media, you know, segregates us. And there's women's health, and there's men's health, and never the twain shall meet.

Yeah.

And I think the false division, you know, I really think what keeps humans healthy and happy is mostly the same stuff. But I think that we talk about it in different ways and we come at it from different directions. And so I think the conversations that Dallas and I are having through the living experiment and through our friendship just explore more, deeper, better than I think we could explore on our own. And I hope it helps the conversation appeal to a broader array of people and will inspire them to share with us the challenges that they're experiencing and the results that they're getting from their experiments. Because we want the show to continue to really meet the practical, relevant needs of folks that are, you know, living with us now on the planet. And that's men and women, man, of all ages.

That's a really good answer.

I'm like, amen. Preach it. I gotta go, guys. I gotta go listen to the first show. That is awesome. Wow. Super inspiring, both you guys. Okay, so then let's. Let's. I know you've got season one of the can I'd love to hear, and that's going to be released. Is it a weekly release pattern?

Yeah, it's a weekly show.

So just as a kind of a sneak peek trailer.

What's.

What's. Each of your. I'd love to hear your favorite big idea and actually would like two parts to this question. Your favorite big idea and your favorite experiment just has a. What's. What's changed your life in the work that you've done together on this podcast so far that people can look forward to?

Oh, I can tell I can start on that one. Well, one of my favorite big ideas that we deliver in an episode somewhere in the season I cannot remember now, called Pause, is about the importance of taking breaks. And you know, I am a wild fan of the ultradian rhythm break. Brian, I know you and I have talked about this in the past, but the idea for folks who've never heard of an ultradian rhythm break, it is a big idea. And it's a big idea that's programmed into our bodies that we need to take regular breaks every hour and a half to two hours to let our physiological, neurological, and psychological systems kind of replenish and reboot themselves. So the big idea is basically every hour and a half to two hours, noticing when Your energy starts to drag and your attention starts to wander and your mood starts to dip. And rather than fighting that and saying, oh crud, I need to go get a candy bar or I need to take a smoke break or whatever, have some more coffee, you actually take a brief rest of 10 or 15 minutes, maybe ultimately ideally up to 20 minutes, and you let your body replenish itself, you let it detoxify yourself, you let your brain do some quick filing, and then you come back with way more energy and attention and productivity. And as I share in the episode, you know, I was really convinced by the research that I read on this, this hard science of why this is necessary and why it is absolutely in accordance with every system in your body. It operates on a rhythm that's more of a wave than a straight line, and we forget about that in our daily lives. So that's my favorite big idea. Ultradian rhythm breaks My favorite experiment is one of Dallas had recommended that I started doing of. I'm a big fan of morning rituals also, but Dallas suggested this experiment of taking more time with your coffee making enterprise and really turning it into a ritual. And he was kind enough to give me this Aeropress coffee maker and a hand grinder that really substantially slow down the process of making coffee in the morning. But A, deliver an incredible cup of coffee and B, really build in a kind of conscious meditative experience first thing in the morning that I've begun to incorporate into my own morning practice on a pretty much daily basis. So thanks for that, Dallas.

Good experiment, very welcome. So go ahead, Brian.

Again, I just, I'm kind of standing in slight awe in the standing ovation of. That is awesome. I just love listening to your voice, by the way. Like, that's just what a treat as a bonus to the listeners as well.

That's actually totally true because when we first started talking about a podcast and I was like, this would sound really, really good. And then she'd mentioned that she had already had a radio show for several seasons and I was like, of course you have. It's a beautiful thing to listen to. Of course you have. It's perfect. So hopefully Pilar's gentle, warm, welcoming lilt will offset my harsh screeching sometime. Anyway, so my favorite idea, this is one that's been near and dear to my heart for many years is this idea that we kind of already alluded to of seasonal patterns of sort of seasonal living. And I think one of the things that I still see a relative deficiency in, in people who write and speak and produce online courses. And everything about healthy living is that we tend to compartmentalize things, and we tend to compartmentalize things into your nutrition program and your exercise program and your sleep kind of style, your sleep rhythms. And we dissect these things to, I think, in a lot of cases, to an unnecessary degree. And we totally forget that these things all occur in our lives in context. And to a certain extent, we've sort of desynchronized ourselves from the seasonal patterns of shorter and longer days, from a sunup sundown standpoint, but. But those things still affect us in a really powerful way because from a circadian rhythm standpoint, that sunlight, that day length is a really powerful kind of anchor. And yes, we can extend it with artificial light, but ultimately that should be a very natural driver of rhythm. And so getting to talk about, in the episode that we do on seasons, getting to talk about how those things can and should be integrated in a way that puts them back in context, I think is a really powerful idea that not enough people are talking about and I'd like to continue to talk about probably in subsequent episodes in addition to the one we've already recorded. So there's that one. And then from like a favorite kind of a favorite experiment standpoint, I'm also a really big proponent of reprioritizing our human connections. And part of that involves recalibrating the way we use technology and in particular, social media. And so one of the experiments I propose is changing the way you get notifications on your phone in a way basically where you eliminate notifications for various social media channels. And the way I've run my phone for quite a while now, which came out of an experiment I did on my own, basically means there's no notifications that pop up. I don't get Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. Nothing makes my phone screen light up or make a noise unless I really need it to. And it really comes down to unless someone's calling me as a telephone call, my phone is silent and doesn't become disruptive. And that was a really massive change for me that I then share in as an. As an experiment for our listeners.

That's awesome. I can't wait to hear your thoughts on season. It's been something seasons. It's been something I've been passionate about and just not even scratched the surface of in my own contemplation beyond. It just doesn't make sense that we're going to go at the same pace and rhythm. So I can't wait for that. And it's funny too, because I don't do podcasts like Alexandra, my wife, is all about the podcast. I read books. It's what I do. It's my one thing. And I realized as I'm listening that this is gonna be my. This is gonna be my podcast. I'm pretty excited about it.

Wow.

Yeah. Yeah, because I'm excited to do more. I'm looking at a mountain that I walk and hike on and I like to think when I'm doing that and it books hasn't quite worked for me, but I'm just really excited to be able to engage and connect with you guys via this.

So, yeah, we would be honored to be your fans.

Excited and honored. Absolutely.

Yeah. That's really cool. Me too. What did we not talk about? We obviously talked about a lot and also just scratched the surface. But is there anything that we didn't talk about that you think we should in order to kind of highlight something important?

Well, you know, one thing, Brian, that I would love to share is, you know, both Dallas and I have spent the last several years of our lives engaged in pretty high profile health education and health media projects. And I think, you know, I'm really glad you asked us about, you know, what I think you termed it kind of a hero's journey. There's this point that both of us are at in doing this project, choosing to do this project when we could be doing a lot of other things that I feel is relevant. And I want to talk just a tiny bit about that because for 15 years I worked on Experience Life night and day and all of these projects that were related to it. And I will always be involved on some level with it. I still write a conference for Experience Life called Revolutionary Acts based on my being healthy as a revolutionary act idea. And I think at this point in my life, I realized I want to be able to do things how I want to do it. I want to be able to have the kind of impact I want to have without having to suffer the daily grind of an experience that no longer works for me. And I know, you know, I went briefly to Huffington Post because I wanted to have a bigger impact at a reach level. You know, it was like 12 million doll unique people a month or something like that. And it seemed like so many people, you know, But I realized big lessons that came out of both Experience Life and Huffington Post for me is that I'm ready for a more intimate experience now. I want to talk to people directly. I want to talk about exactly what I want to talk about. When I want to talk about it, I want to be able to be free to say what I really think and to share things as I'm learning them. And for me, that's a lot of the impetus of, like, why now for this project. And both of us are doing other things, too. You know, Dallas has got programs and experiences he's developing, as do I. I'm working on a book and I want to just let people know that for those of you who have enjoyed the other work we've done. Yeah, I think you're going to like the Living Experiment a lot and just recognize it is an experiment for us, too, and one we're both really, really excited to take on.

I love it. This is good. The Living Experiment. Find it. Do you guys have the website?

Yeah, it's living experiment dot com.

Okay.

Not the. Just living experiment.

Livingexperiment.com and of course you can find that when searching for your podcast, wherever you do that. I like to wrap up these chats. Again, usually I'm talking to the author about their book and that kind of thing, but just stepping back. The Living Experiments, each of you as human beings, if you were going to share one piece of wisdom with someone passionate about optimizing their life and actualizing their potential, giving their gifts to the world, what would that one piece of wisdom be?

You know, I would say start by finding yourself right the way you are. I think, you know, my friend Cindy Joseph really helped me understand the power of this piece of advice. And, you know, when we start from thinking we're messed up or bad or flawed in some way, and we go from trying to make things bad to make things okay or a little better, it's a lot less fun than starting from a place of saying, you know what, I'm actually pretty good the way I am. And if you're in a place in your life where you're thinking about optimizing your life, it helps to start with going, things are pretty good the way they are now. And I love just starting from a place of hope and optimism and enthusiasm rather than a place of self criticism. So start by finding yourself right and then choose to make it even better.

Yeah, and mine's actually not too dramatically different than that. A lot of it comes down to recognizing that we are going to be afraid of doing new things right. Taking risks is scary. Being different is scary. It's okay to be afraid. It's okay to be nervous. It's okay to say, what are my friends going to think? What's my family going to think it's okay to have those feelings. And I think that when you have emotion, when you have feelings that are sort of. They give you stress, kind of negative emotions, calling them by their name massively diffuses the potency of it. So just literally saying to yourself, it's okay to be afraid of making these changes because I don't know what's gonna happen. I don't know how people around me are gonna react. And like, that's okay. It's okay to be anxious about what the consequences are gonna be, about the outcomes. And it's okay to be weird. It's okay to be different. It's okay to. I mean, at least I tell myself that every morning. It's okay to be weird.

Thank God.

Yes.

Keeping in mind the very first episode of the Living Experiment, we titled welcome. And then in parentheses we added freak.

We understand. Yeah. Because in being unconventional and questioning the way society currently operates, you do make yourself a bit of a freak. You do make yourself a bit of a. An anomaly. And I'll argue that that's actually a really positive thing. A. Because you can make your own life better. Because if you look around at society at large, following the trends and following the way everyone else is doing it is not getting us to a good place. But then the other really exciting opportunity there is that in doing it differently, you yourself can become an inspiring leader in your own family, workplace, or community and prompt change and sort of be a catalyst for change there too. So it's not just about you making your life better. It's actually about the opportunity to make the at large. And that's what drives all three of us. Right?

Absolutely.

So good. Yeah. I write down every morning purpose. We help people optimize and change the world one person at a time. How do we inspire and empower as much as we can? And it's one experiment at a time, Right?

Absolutely.

Super inspiring. I appreciate you both. Thank you for your courage and your wisdom. And congrats on the new show.

Thank you so much.

Thanks so much. It's been great talking to you.

Isn't it a bit odd we went from math to science to history, but somehow missed the class on how to live? For some wacky reason, optimal living 101 never made the schedule. Of course, it's too late to go back and change that and you're too busy to read full time to catch up.

Yet.

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