Lunchtime Live with Ann Voskamp | Holly Furtick

Welcome, everyone. It is lunchtime live and I am so excited with the guest that we are going live with today. First of all, hello. I don't know if it's lunchtime where you are, but it is 12:05 here in Charlotte and I have not eaten lunch yet. I have been back to back all day and I'm too excited to eat because of the person that I am interviewing. So I have yeti of some tea and it will sustain me through this conversation and then I will eat lunch. So I want to know who is joining us today before I introduce our amazing guest. Let's see who we have. We have Bernice from Montreal. She says she's looking forward to this discussion. Oh, and Bernice wants to know if anyone else here is is a part of Holly's book club. Bernice, I would also like to know that for those of you who are just joining us, I have a little fiction book club and we just read a fiction book once a month now. We're moving it to every other month. We get the author to come on. We just chatted last night. We have the best time. If you like to read fiction and you would like to join us, you can go to Holly Furtick dot com. Give me your email address and I'll let you know what we're reading and when we're going to be talking about the book. It's that simple. Let's see who else is joining us. Antonia Cooper. Hello. Madison Reynolds from Mississippi. We've got Joan from Ohio. We've got Amy Corbett in the house. Amy is a big fan of our author today as well and one of my best friends in the whole world. Who else is on Charlotte Fishback. Yes. She is a member of our book club. Sergio Sanchez, also a member of of our book club.

Hey, Mom.

Deb boy not is on everybody say hi to my mom. Renee says hey. From sadly snowy Pennsylvania. It is not snowy in Charlotte today, thank God, but it is raining. It has been downpouring for about the last 12 hours. I think it's still drizzling, but we're always good for a little bit of rain. You know, I don't want to rain for days and days and days, but better rain than snow, right? Who else? We have Amy Hall. Hello. Lisa Speed from Gainesville, Georgia. Brittany Cox says I'm getting married and would love for you and Elevation Church to come. Well, Brittany, I don't know if your reception can hold all of Elevation Church, but send us an invitation. Let's see. Lori says hi, Mom. Oh, Everybody's saying hi to my mom. Lakeisha says, hi, mom. Wendy Cooper says, hey, Holly's mom. I love it. Anita Welch from Phoenix is with us. Jerusa from Charlotte. Hello. Kimberly Santos says, it is snowing in Springfield, Missouri. Oh, official Steven Furtick is on, and he says that my biggest fan. Your biggest fan is here. That is right. And I am also Stephen Furtick's biggest fan. We love each other. Okay, let's see, guys. Okay, I have to interrupt myself. Have you downloaded the new Elevation worship album? It's called Lion. It just came out last Friday. And these songs on this album, my husband and several other people gotten together over the last year and a half and written these songs, and they are amazing. And this morning, I. I was listening to the song Dancing, which is about. I don't know, maybe midway through the album, and I texted my husband, and I was like, I love this song, and I love you so much, and I'm going to stop being sappy, but you've got to get the album. Rondi Mullins, she says, hello. I can't wait to hear from Ann. I love all her books. Guys, let's get to it. We got to get Ann on. I got to talk to. And I. I know some of you are gonna argue with this, but I think I'm her biggest fan. And maybe you think you're her biggest fan, but I think I've read everything that she's put out, even, like, random little chapters in books that were not completely written by her. She. She truly is one of my favorite authors. And I don't know if you know this, but she was named by Christianity Today as one of 50, 50 women most shaping the culture and the church today. That's impressive. Also, she's written several books, one of them, 1,000 gifts, which I'm sure many of you have read, or at least somebody has given you a copy of it, because that book has sold 1.5 million copies, and it was on the New York Times bestsellers list for over 60 books weeks. That is amazing. And I feel like I love 1000 gifts. Great book, But I feel like Ann's books get better and better as they come along. She's also a mom of seven and a farmer's wife, and I have so many questions for her today. I'm so glad that you're going to get to be a part of this conversation. If you have a question for Ann, you can put it in the comments. But I have many, many questions for her. So I think you should just hope that My question is your question. And because I don't know that I'm going to get to your question because I have mine and has a new book coming out next week. It's called Waymaker. How beautiful is this book? And I'm so excited to talk to her about that and many other things today. Guys, let's welcome Ann Bosskamp.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Holly. I'm so grateful to be here. I only wish it was in person, my friend.

I know. I do too. And I think if we were going to meet in person, it would be better to be here than where you live.

This is true. Actually. I flew through Charlotte last night and you're right, it was raining. I got off the little puddle jumper plane flying from Chattanooga to Charlotte and I got rained on in Charlotte as I ran into the airport. So then I came back to snow here. So you're right. Your rain is better than my snow.

Okay. I cannot believe that you were in Charlotte last night.

I waved to y' all and we.

Could have actually met.

We could have done this right in live in person.

So now you're in your home in Canada and there's snow on the ground.

Yeah, there's snow on the ground, but we can see, we can actually see ground now. So they lost a lot while I was. I was traveling for the last six days. So we can see, but there's still in areas that we still have over a foot of snow, so we're not there yet.

Okay. I'm not a cold weather person, so I will not be visiting you on your farm unless you invite me in the summertime.

So I'll invite you in the summertime, Miss Holly.

I grew up in Miami, Florida, so I'm a big cold weather wimp.

But Miami, Florida is beautiful. I totally resonate why that might be preferable to my snow.

Okay. And so I have a million questions for you today. But I always like to start off with just some like fast, like would you rather type questions? So, and, and then a lot of times it doesn't go fast because I talk too much. But would you rather read the book or watch the movie?

Oh, read the book.

Same do. Okay. Do you like fiction?

I'll. Well, I really like reading theology. Lots and lots of theology. I know that's not popular.

Okay. I'm going to be honest. I'm. I'm not a theology reader. Do you have a book you would recommend though?

Like.

Okay, if you were only going to read one theology ish book, like theology for starters. I'm not going to say I would.

Read When Kingfishers Catch Fire. They're Eugene Peterson sermons, and they're really. Or Eugene Peterson's. The pastor is really beautiful. Right now I'm reading, I'm listening, actually to Christ's place in 10,000 places by Eugene Peterson. And it is magnificent.

Okay. I do love Eugene Peterson and I do have a copy of that book. I have not read it, but I've read a couple chapters of it, so. Awesome. Okay, so would you. Now, you live on a farm, so I think I'm going to know the answer to this question, but would you rather cook something quick or order takeout?

Oh, well, maybe sometimes if I could order takeout, but I'm going to have to cook it.

What do you cook if you're in a pinch?

No, if I'm in a pinch, I'm probably. If I'm in a pinch, I'm probably going to use my instant pot and I'm going to make a soup.

Okay. If I'm in a pinch, we're going to have breakfast at my house.

Oh, perfect.

Eggs. We always have eggs, bacon, and pancake mix.

So I was just gonna. As long. As long as this pig farmer's wife gets to come somewhere where they're gonna eat bacon, I'll be really happy.

Oh, 1000%. We eat bacon and we're not picky about it. I don't care if it has. I actually prefer the bacon that has sugar in it because I think the no sugar bacon is too salty. And I'm really not picky about bacon. I don't even know, is there organic bacon? If there is, I'm not picky about that either.

And lots of times in Canada we have ours. It's flavored with maple syrup. So it's like. It is a sweet deal. And I'm fine to have it without the maple syrup, but bacon, period, is where we're at.

Thick or thin?

You know what I think you folks call. You have something that you call Canadian bacon. And I'm not sure why you call it Canadian bacon because we don't actually eat that. What you call Canadian bacon, we call. I think we call it peameal bacon. And it's. And it's much thicker.

I like.

Yeah, it looks like ham to us. Whereas I like bacon that's like thin bacon.

Yes, me too. Yes. I'm not a fan of Canadian bacon.

No, neither am I. And none of us eat it here. We find it really bizarre that it's called Canadian bacon because we don't have it. Like, we don't eat it. That.

That is fascinating. I only like Canadian bacon on eggs Benedict.

Yes.

There you go. Okay. Genesis or Revelation?

Genesis.

Me, too. But that's because I like stories.

I like stories and I like. Genesis is. Oh, the family got so, so, so messy. And you're reading, you go like, oh, like, these are God's people. And then like, oh, that's. That's good. Because, like, I'm messy, and God will take me, too. And the story of. Of Joseph. And you might have met him for evil, but God meant it for good. Like, I. I'll stay in Genesis.

Agree. Plus Revelation. It overwhelms me.

Yes, yes. The story ends well. I don't know if I understand all.

The parts of the story correct. I don't even like to read fantasy, so I want. I want the story. I want the real life. I. I don't. I. Everybody can study the angels and the serifs and the wings and the. All of that, but I'm. I'm good. I'm. I'm.

I'm going to work it all out. In the end, he knows how it ends. It's good.

Exactly. All right. Best time of the day. Morning or even.

Oh, morning.

Okay.

Really early before everybody gets up.

Really? So what's. What do you mean by really early?

Anywhere between 4:30 and 6. That means everyone will be up by 6. So if I can be up before then, and I'm centered in the Lord, usually this place right here with my journals and my Bible, and it's quiet. That's my happy place. And then the rest of the day is okay because I've been centered and rooted in Jesus before everything else begins.

Well, that's amazing. And I have to tell you that I've tried that many times in my life, and usually I end up with, like, basically drool on my Bible because I'm not a morning person. When it works for you. That's right.

That's right.

Okay, before we get to talking about your book, which I can't wait to talk about, tell us a little bit about your family and what it's like living on a farm in Canada.

Yeah. So we have seven kids that range in age from 26 down to seven. So we basically have seven kids across two decades. We have four boys and three girls. My oldest son got married in September to a lovely girl from Aspen, Colorado. And living here under our roof now is just the three youngest. Malachi is 19, Shalom is 16, Shiloh is 7, and Levi is 22. He still works at home, so he comes here every day, but he lives with his other brother, Joshua, about 10 minutes away. So there's four kids I see here every day. We run about 900 acres of land now. Corn, soybeans, and wheat in rotation. And we have. We have 650 sows. So we always have about a thousand baby piglets out in the barn. So Liz Curtis Higgs always says, instead of writing a book called 1000 Gifts, you should have written a book called 1000 Baby Pigs. And we have. I have my little flock of sheep. I have eight little sheep and my two cows, and we have a bunch of red Fox Labs. So it's wild and crazy, but I grew up on a farm. I grew up on a farm only about 15 minutes away from here. My husband grew up on a farm about 10 minutes from where I grew up. He and I were born in the same hospital, in the same hospital room, delivered by the same doctor, and our kids born in the same hospital room. So this is home to me.

That's so special. And I. I feel like I know nothing about the life that you just described because we don't even have a dog. And I'm trying to convince my husband to let us get a dog, but we don't even have a dog. I did hold a baby sheep last week.

Oh. How was that for you?

Well, I mean, it was okay. I'm not really into, like, barn smells and I get that. I get that it was okay, but I don't think anybody who knows me would ever describe me as an animal lover. I do want a dog, though. I do want a dog. I'm trying to convince my husband to get us a dog, but I'm not. I'm not. I'm not winning. He's winning. Does he have.

Does he have his reasons why he doesn't think a dog is a good idea?

Yes, he has many reasons why. Long list of reasons why. But, I mean, he basically keeps saying, who's going to keep the dog when we go X, Y, Z? And. And so I'm like, well, we'll work it out. It'll be fine. Lots of people go places and have dogs. But he's like. He just.

He's very practical.

Yes, that's okay. All right. I just. Okay, we've got to start talking about this book before we do. And I got to say this a little bit to you before we got online, but I didn't tell you this. Truly, your books have meant so much to me, and it feels like, you know, Every time that I pick up a book of yours, it's like, perfect for the season that I'm in. And I picked up, like I said, I've loved every single one of your books. I am a huge fan of your Advent book. I love a Thousand Gifts. But about two years ago, I picked up the Broken Way, which was the last book that you wrote, and. And I was going through a really difficult season personally, and there were so many times where I was sitting on my couch and literally reading your book through tears. And I'm just so excited to. That you're releasing a new book because it's been five years. And I just. I'm so excited. I got this copy last week. I have not finished it because I feel like your books are not the kind of book that you read in one sitting and. Or two sittings or a week. And so I like to go through, and I like to just absorb it and let the Lord speak to me and, you know, put it down and think about it. And so I'm so excited. I've read. I've read some of the book, but not all of it. And so I just. I can't wait to finish it and to talk to you about it today. So. Okay, to start us off, I thought that you could read a short passage, and I gave you the passage because I feel like this kind of like sets up the whole title. It's Waymaker, finding a way to the life you've always dreamed of. And you kind of give us the. The premise right here in these couple paragraphs. So will you read it for us?

Yeah. So this is the last paragraph, page and a half or so of the very first chapter. Any old way will not do with your only life. This is your only life. You have to brave the waves. When there seems to be no way. Reroute through the waves. It's never about the storm. It's always about your sail. When there seems to be no way I can reroute my eps. I speak about this a little bit earlier in the chapter. Instead of having a gps, we all have an eps, an expectational positioning system that says where we think, where we expected, where we hoped we would be. I can reroute my eps, my expectational positioning system. If I'm upset that he hasn't responded the way I'd hoped, I can reroute and look for the ways he, being my husband, is trying to connect. True, he didn't gather me up and hold me long in the morning before getting out of bed. But also True, he did make the bed and get me a steaming cup of tea. When there seems to be no way I can reroute and gently explain the ways I need to be heard and held, seen and made safe when there seems to be no way I could reroute and thank him for the ways of love I have felt True dreams don't always happen. Hope hits roadblocks, plans don't come through. And also true. Reroute. Reroute. Reroute. There are real ways to simultaneously decrease your pain. No, there are real ways to simultaneously decrease your pain and increase the number of ways you have to navigate through the pain. And there is a real way through. Actively, bravely, trust, reroute. All this thinking about this disappointment toward a different possibility every day. You can make it your way of life to find one way to reroute. You can make it your way of life to see what is in the way is actually making another way. Ayeka, which is. I speak about this earlier in the chapter, which is God is asking, where are you? And we answer, hannah, here I am. I am here. My waymaker, whatever your way, rerouting. And you know, Holly, that you would ask that I would read this particular section, that one line. There are real ways to simultaneously decrease your pain and increase the number of ways you have to navigate through the pain so that there is a real way through. I think lots of times we run into situations in our lives. There's so much, so much pain, so much suffering, obstacles come up, diagnosis has happened, crises happen, and we get overwhelmed. I get overwhelmed and think, I don't know what the way through is right now, but there are real tools to decrease the pain and increase the number of ways we have to navigate through. And then I think Waymaker really is about having a way of life, a rule of life. These. These habits and rhythms every day that keep us in the company of the Way himself. So that when we say, I don't see the way through, we have this rhythm in our lives that allows Jesus to. To lift our chin and to cup our faces and say, look at me. I am the way through. I will show you the way through. If you know how to have a cadence of life, a pace of life that walks in me. So that one line, Holly, I would do anything to put it into the hands of some people who have felt like there are no ways in their lives at all for them to know there are ways that decrease your pain and increase the number of tools you have so you know that there is a real way through.

It's. It's beautiful and it's beautifully said. And one of the things that I've heard you. You write it in this book, and I've heard you say it in books before, is that suffering. Let me see if I can remember it, because I didn't write it down. But you basically say no one's exempt from suffering. The fact that you're suffering is an indication of the fact that you are a human.

Exactly right. Exactly that. In Waymaker, I think sometimes we think it can be really easy to pick up a cultural narrative that if I'm doing everything right, my life, I should get to avoid all suffering. I should get. Where are the detours? Where are the bypasses so I don't go through suffering. And to realize that God takes. There is no way through life that doesn't pass through a Gethsemane. If we want to get to resurrection, we have to go through Gethsemane. We have to go through places of oil. That's what Gethsemane means. You're actually being pressed down, made out into oil that are. There is a crushing in our lives, but that oil can become the oil of joy that anoints the feet of Jesus. That oil can become a fresh fragrance onto Christ. That oil can become being pressed into the narrow way that is the way through. And I think in my own life, right about in the first couple chapters of Waymaker, especially after we got married, I thought, if we do everything right, we should be able to avoid the way of suffering. And that's not the way through to a meaningful life.

Yeah. I think it's something that, as. As Christians, and especially people who, who grow up in the church, that somewhere along the lines, we. We. We hold on to this narrative that if I'm good, then I will avoid pain and suffering. And we think if I give my life to God, if I follow the God's will, if I. If I do all of these things that I'm not. Don't do these things that I'm not supposed to do, then bad things won't happen to me. And I love how in. In this book, you're so vulnerable and you don't just say, you know, suffering is a part of being, of being human. It's. It's not something that we avoid just because we follow God. But you're able to be so vulnerable in telling such personal stories in the book that allow people to really connect with you. And I'm wondering, what does it feel like in the moment when you're Writing and you're telling these stories, and then what does it feel like afterward? Like you're about to put out this book, you're about to tell these really personal stories, and you're. Everyone who has read your. Your work knows that you're not afraid to go there. You're not afraid to talk about your struggles, your failures, your disappointments. What is that like for you personally?

Yeah. Holly, I have told really vulnerable stories, both in 1000 gifts and the Broken Way. I have never told as vulnerable stories as I have told in Waymaker.

Especially.

The second half of the book. If I'm vulnerable at the beginning, I go deep dive in the second half. It's terrifying to release those kind of stories out in the world because really, shards of My Heart are on the paper of the book that is in the hands of people, and you're asking them to steward the most vulnerable parts. But I. I really believe, Holly, we have to be honest, deeply honest. And if we don't be honest about the broken parts of our stories, the parts where we got things wrong, the parts where we got turned the wrong way, then people who are walking their everyday lives feel so alone in their own stories. So we have to be truth tellers and tell the honest parts where I got this wrong. I would do anything. I would do anything to go back and not rewrite a book, but rewrite my story. So the chapter lines, the chapter and the storyline was different. But if we can be honest about the parts of our story that we got wrong, that we got turned the wrong way little bit by little bit and little bit, and ended up in a place we never thought we would be, then maybe handing that map to somebody else gives them a guide so they don't make the same wrong turns that I made in my own story. Yes, I hugged my husband this morning in the kitchen and said, I'm so scared. I'm a week away from the most vulnerable stories I can possibly imagine telling going out into the world. But if it can help one other person on their journey, journey that they can. They don't lose Jesus. Like you can see in the last half of the book, I got turned in the wrong direction in all kinds of ways and. And the mess I made out of my life. It takes five years to write a book because I'm writing out of my story, right? I'm writing it really honestly and excavating my soul. So it's not a formula and a how to book. It's. This is. This is where I was, and this is where I took the wrong turns. And really Waymaker is about to say all the time about whether it be a church or a business or your house. What matters is location, location, location. And Waymaker really is about location, location, location of your own soul. Where is your soul? The location of your soul in relation to God. That's the distance that you have to figure out. That's the way you have to figure out. Because if we say we have a relationship with God, what is the habit of our life to find out where our soul is in relation to God. And if we get kind of apathetic about that, we can find ourselves a long way off from where God is. And the good news is, no matter where we find ourselves, we have a Waymaker who will come the whole long way to get to us. That's. I think sometimes we want God. We want God to make a way to a place. But peace isn't a place. Peace is a person. And that person will make the whole way to us.

Yeah. I'm so grateful for you and for you having the courage to put this book out, to put these stories out, because I am so concerned about the world that we live in right now. I think people have always. People have always hidden their suffering, their mistakes, their. Their failures from other people. But I feel like the world that we live in right now, it's. It's. It's so destructive because people are. They're not just hiding their. Their. And I don't think you have to put everything out there for everyone. No, absolutely. But I think when you're. When you're sharing your story like this, people like me who are reading it are going, okay, I'm not alone. I'm not the only person who makes mistakes, who fails, who suffers. And I feel like it will encourage people to share their mistakes and their failures with others. I was talking with a friend of mine and. And we were. We were talking about a person that we know who was. Had just spent the last year of their life just completely suffering and in complete. Just made some really poor decisions. And. And they were afraid to go and. And be around their friends because they were like, I can't. I can't even be with people because I don't know what they'll think of me. And the thing is, that's so sad to me is that what we don't realize is that everyone has something that they're ashamed of. Everyone has something that turned out in their life disappointing. And when we hide those things and we hide behind these filters and these images and these pictures and we project to other people that our life is so much better than we actually feel like it is. It makes it worse.

Yes, it does. Because the enemy of our souls wants to keep us isolated. And as long as you can keep us isolated, the lies can get really loud in our own head. And all healing. If trauma happens in relationship, and it does, trauma happens in relationship and community. Also healing happens in relationship and community. So we have to go ahead and live cruciform, live like shaped and form like a cross, where reaching out to God and being really honest with God about the mess and reaching out to people and being really honest to them. Living shaped and formed like a cross. Because in that posture of vulnerability. I don't know about you, Holly, I want to live like this, where I'm all protected and I'm guarded. But if we live cruciform shaped like a cross, where we're reached out towards gods and people, we're living in a posture of vulnerability which takes us into the way that we always dream of. Deep intimacy that connects us with people, but that takes courage to live into the vulnerability that leads to the intimacy, which is what we ultimately are all dreaming of. That connection point with God and people.

Yeah, I agree 100%. It takes courage and it also takes some discernment because it's not. It's.

It's.

It's a false sense of connection when you put it out on. On social media. Like, I am not saying in any way, shape or form that people need to go and share their disappointments and their failures and like dump on their Instagram or whatever. I do think that the social media, when you, when you project that things are better than they are, it makes you. It isolates yourself even further. So how have you, like, reached out so you share these things? Who are some people that have helped you in the journey and to. Because we talk about. You talk about having a relationship with God and realizing that he is the way. But oftentimes he. He speaks to us through other people and being open and honest with other people. How has that happened for you in your life?

Yeah, so I think that happens two ways, Holly. Happens here at this desk when I sit and I open up his word and his word speaks to me. I don't think you should go out into the world any day unless you've had a fresh revelation of God. If we say we want to see the way through, we need to spend time with the way Himself is going to reveal more of himself. So walk out into the day with your Fresh revelation. So I write that fresh revelation down. And I also write down every day attentiveness to my own soul, the same verses from Genesis that God asked Hagar, where are you coming from and where are you going to? So I think you need to locate where your soul honestly is. That's what I need to do is a way of life, a sacred way of life that I write about and waymaker that happens every day with a pen and journaling. Because I think you need to excavate your own soul to locate your soul in relation to God. Then beyond that. So that's my community with God. I think you're only going to be as healthy in your relationships with other people as you are healthy in your relationship with God. So it starts. If you want. If you want congruity between your private life and your public life, you have to have deep integrity in private ways that nobody sees. That's with journaling the word out, reading the word, and then community out. Beyond my relationship with the Lord. That's looked like three, three, four different things. Number one, I'm part of a confessional community with six other women that we have a text that's happening every day. But we have three hours a month that we are face to face with each other, that we share. We share the parts of our story where we would feel the most shame. The parts of our stories where we feel deep grief. The parts of our stories where we have deep longings and desires and wants. We share that in community. It's not about solving each other's problems or fixing it. It's about, I really believe deep change happens and exactly the way God comes alongside of us. Withness and witness. I am with you in this and I see you in this. So that confessional community is a. We need safe places where we are seen. So. So that's. You're right. We don't go and we're not. It's not about spewing all of our really messy stuff to just anybody. It's a safe place that's confidential with people who are in our corner and have our back. People who say, I think every life needs lifers, people who will stay in their room and have your back for life. I am in this with you forever. So I'm not afraid of being abandoned or. Or forsaken. I can say the things out loud that I'm terrified if I say them out loud, people will leave. So you've got people who say, like, I'm never leaving, say the things that you don't Think you can say out loud, we're going to sit with you in this and witness this and pray that the Holy Spirit meets us in it and show us the way forward. So that confessional community have a spiritual director that I meet with on a consistent basis, an Asian woman that only lives about an hour and a half away from us. I think it's really important. I think it's really important to learn from people who look different than us, who have a different background than us, then that we can be informed and taught in new ways. Sitting with Maria has been one of the greatest gifts of my life. Where she prays with me, I say the hard things. We grieve together. She reads scripture over me. So I think having someone who can, whether that's a spiritual mentor, whether that's a spiritual director, but having someone just intimately come alongside and pray with you, that has been deeply healing. I've had a therapist that I meet with on a consistent basis who loves Jesus, who is in the Word but says hard things to me and gives me homework that I need to work on. And he has been a lifeline. And then I think, who is your person? You need, like, one person. For me, it is my husband. So that is some of the best texts he has ever sent me, has been no shame, Ann. No shame. So that I can go ahead and say the thing that I'm struggling with. And it's a safe place. We have a rhythm where we call it cupping time, where we have a cup of coffee together during the day for at least 10 to 15 minutes, and we're not allowed to talk about logistics, about our lives. We are sitting down to cup each other's hearts and to hear the vulnerable things. What are you really afraid of? What are the lies in your head that you need to say out loud? Really tender, vulnerable things so that every day we've made time to really cup each other's hearts. You can sit down with a cup of coffee and talk about logistics and kids and life, but we need to move out of the shallows and go to the deep end with each other so that we. We have a heart map for each other, that we know each other's hearts and where we're at. Because I think all of life is about the turn. Holly. To master life is the art of the turn. Whether who am I turning towards with my heart? Who am I turning towards for comfort? Who am I turning towards when I want to escape and go numb? Whether that's I want to go to consumerism or I want to Go to a screen. We need to turn to people in relationships and to God. So what do our turns look like? Because our turns ultimately determine the way that we're on our path.

Yeah. So what would you say to someone who is listening to you and they're like, well, that's great. And, you know, you've got this beautiful group of women, you've got this mentor, you've got a wonderful relationship with your husband. I. Where do I begin? If I. If I was a person who felt like, truly alone, where. Where would you say someone should begin?

Well, we make ourselves a story. How I didn't have a very good relationship with my husband at all. So I'm right there with you. I get that. And I didn't have Waymaker, the time where everything is falling apart middle of the block. Um, I didn't have that confessional community. I think I would start. If you can get a good therapist, that's a good place to start because that can start to excavate the lies where I really believe. Like, the lie that I was too much. I couldn't get community. No, but, like, so you start to crush out some lies, and that might be connecting with your pastor. That might be somebody at church. If you can't find a therapist, connect with somebody that can start to crush out some of those lies, because some of those lies make it. Make. Tell you you're not good enough for community to begin with. So I think you need to crush out some of those lies. And then. And then I think you. You have to forge community when you're terrified. So for me, that confessional community found, like, first finding just one person who I said, like, would you be willing to meet? And we built out from that. So it's not like I had to be brave enough to start to build the table that you want to sit at. And I know that's terrifying. And I'm not saying that lightly. I'm saying one person at a time and invite people in. And trust comes slowly. These things don't happen overnight. So you start to build relationship with people in small ways and build the table that you want to sit at instead of. I waited too long, Holly, for someone to invite me to a table.

Yes.

And I think you just have to reach out to one person. And if it's not that person, that's okay. You don't have to shut down and say, okay, it didn't work for that person.

It must be me.

Take some time to heal. It's okay, and be gentle with yourself. And then Say I'll reach in another direction, but be committed to the process because we all need companions with us on the way.

Yeah, it's so true. And I, I, I think a lot of times I see people or I hear people who say, you know, I don't have anyone in my life. And I think a lot of times we use the wrong criteria. Maybe we, you know, like you have this whole, the whole idea that I have, I have, my kids are 11, 14 and 17. And it's so interesting to watch them and to hear them even use the term the cool people and because that's a very, it's a very juvenile phrase to even say. And I think that as a, you know, we become adults and we would never say, you know, oh, those are the cool people. But in our mind we're always observing and analyzing people based on the wrong criteria. How they look, what they have, where they live. And I think that's a lie of the enemy, is that you don't have anyone because you don't have those people that you think, you know. And really it starts by looking at who is in my life right now and, and, and, and what? And even if maybe they're old, maybe they're young, but who do I have that's right here in my life right now?

I think that when I think back, where did our confessional community start? I was in a place where I felt like there was no way forward. Can I find someone else who also is in a no way place the same? Like, don't look for someone who has it all together. Look for somebody who is broken too. Because we can lean into each other in those places we can understand and out of the way. This holy spirit has comforted us in our pain. We can pass that comfort on to them. Because I think sometimes I think, well, I need, I need to find people who have it all together. Honestly, nobody has it all together. Like everybody is fighting hard battles. I mean to sit in our confessional community, you would look at those women, think they all have it together. And there isn't a time where every single one of us aren't crying because we're up against a rock and a hard place in all kinds of ways. So, so everybody you are with is fighting a hard battle and up against no ways reach out to somebody because it's, it's in community, the reaching out, living cruciform that our lives start to transform towards healing.

I know I, I love it so much and I love, I feel like this cannot be said enough with the Climate of our. Of our culture right now, and that people, you know, are just. They want to know the way. And. And it's like. And God's like, it's here, it's here. I'm here. Oh, you have. There's people in your life. It's. It's right here.

It's gone. And unity and church. And I think so many times I said, well, I don't see the way forward. Oh, do you have a way of life? Because really, what we're trying to do is we want a way forward, but you need a way of life. What are your rhythms and your practices in your life that. That keep you in the way? Because you're right, Holly. We want a way out there when the way is with us right here. God, the church community is the way forward.

I love it. So. Okay. And you talk about. You share several different stories, but I think if I were to sum it up, you. There are two different ways that we kind of lose. Lose our way. And it's through disappointments or things that have happened to us that are outside of our control. But then there's also bad decisions that we've made that we feel like have gotten us off the path. And what I love is how you actually share both of those personal stories from both of those examples.

True, Holly. It is. I'm telling a suffering story that happens with our daughter's open heart surgery multiple times over. And I'm also telling the story of how I broke my husband's heart in a thousand ways based on my own choices. You're exactly right.

So when you find yourself in one of those situations and you talk about how, you know, God is the way and he. And he's with us, I think a lot of times people think that getting back on the way is more of a passive thing, like, God's gonna. God's gonna redirect me. But it's actually quite active. So what. What do you think is actually required of us when we find ourselves in one of these situations to sort of feel like our path is rerouted?

Yeah, I think that. I think. I mean, you just nailed it right there, Holly. So many times we are waiting for God to show the way passively. God, do something to open up the way. I want to be clear. The Waymaker comes the whole long way. Like, he does it all. It's not that we have to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps or do something, but what we do. The only thing he's asking us to do is not resist him anymore. He's not asking because I think lots of times what we're doing is we are turning away from him, searching for other things to comfort us, other things to protect us, other things to take care of us. What he's asking us, do we have a way of life? Waymaker really starts looking at the people of Israel as they're faced. The Red Sea is in front of them, and the Israel or the Egyptians are coming behind them. What's the first thing the Lord asked them to do? Through Moses, he says, be still, and the Lord will do the battle for you. Do we have a way of life that allows us to be still first? I think we're terrified. Holly of stillness. We are. We want noise and screens and distractions and anything to keep hustle, hustle, hustle, keep moving. Because if I was still and I saw what was really happening in my own soul, I would be scared. I would be terrified. And also, if we are still, we are letting go of our striving and we are saying, I am in a posture of trust right now. So do we have a posture that allows us first in crisis to still? Do we have a posture that allows us to attend to where our own soul is? Where am I in relation to God asking our own soul questions like David did, who do I say that you are, Lord, where am I coming from? And where am I going to that? He asked Hagar. And then Jesus asks, what do you want? And I think sometimes as believers, we think, am I allowed to say what I want? But I think when we are really honest with the Lord and say, this is what I want is laying it down before the Lord. And it also lets us see, is this what I want? Is it in alignment with what God wants in my life? Or is my heart become a bit of an idol factory? And I have an idol that we need. I need to slay and I need to cut down. So I think about being honest about that. How am I living? Cruciform, don't go out into the day unless you have that fresh revelation from God. Write down one verse. If you have to stick it on a sticky note, write it on your palm of your hand. Write in your one verse that this is the Lord saying, this is the way. Walk in it. This is my word for you today, having a posture of examine. What am I afraid of? I think there's a reason why it's like 360. Sometimes in scripture, it's, do not be afraid. Because ultimately fear is underneath so much of our suffering. We're afraid of something Terrible happening. Fear is motivating so many of our decisions and our turns. So we need to slow down enough. Say, what am I exactly afraid of? Greater is he is in me than he is in the world. We need to slow down and see what is driving us. And so many times it is that fear. So slow down and note the fear. And then I never finish the day without doxology. Thanksgiving. How do I go ahead and see all the gifts that God is giving me right now? So it's really a sacred way of life. Stillness, attentive, cruciformity, revelation, examine doxology, all those letters spelling sacred that we have a sacred way of life. That sacred way is setting us apart for the Lord. When we look at those Egyptians, Israelites coming out of Egypt, they wanted to hold the Israelites in bondage. And God makes a way out. We want a way through, but the way through is always to what the promised land is bonding with him. He's taking it out of bondage to bonding with Him. Do we have a sacred way of life that sets of us apart for bonding with him so that we're in the way himself and he is the way forward? So for me, that intentionality means, like even I was just on the six day of traveling. That meant I made sure I brought my big Bible, the one that I write, my journaling Bible, and I brought my journals with me. And I made sure I didn't start the day without making sure I was still before the Lord, that I had my fresh revelation from God, that I had that sacred way of life. Because it's like that plane leaving from lax, going to New York. If you just a degree here and a degree here and a degree here, just every day just a little bit out of the way, you can find yourself six months later in Washington D.C. instead of new York City and somewhere where you never thought you would end up. So the book Waymaker really is about where did I end up when I wasn't intentional about staying in the way. And I never want to end up in that pit of darkness and all kinds of addictions and turn the wrong way with my life. Holly. I am determined that I'm going to stay in the way, Stay in the way, stay in the way so that my heart is bonded with the way himself.

Yeah, and I love how you use the word rerouting so much because. Because God is, is he. He is the God of rerouting.

He.

He doesn't. He's not about. You know, when I, when I was a kid, I remember Learning that repentance means to turn. And so in my mind I got this idea that God is the God of U turns. That he wants me to. To turn around and go back the other way. But I don't find in my life that God makes me ever go backwards, but that he takes me where I am and he reroutes me and he shows me a different path. He helps me get off of the. Of the wrong path, the wrong train of thought, the blaming other people or judging or whatever the path is that I'm on. He just. He reroutes me. He doesn't make me turn around.

And I think I had this thinking. And I. When I say I had this thing, I mean, till I was writing this book, I had this thinking that those U turns, Holly, that repentance is about turning around. And I always thought that the. That the prodigal son. You've got to go all the way back. You've got to go find God. Like, you have to span the distance as opposed to that rerouting in the turn. He will come the whole long way to you. He will be right beside you. All he's going to do is lift your chin and turn your face towards Him. He's not asking you to go the whole distance. All he will come the whole way, turn your chin just so you're facing him. He will reroute your steps when your eyes are turned and fixed towards Him. You don't have to go the whole long distance back.

So beautiful. So you talk a lot about how God is good. God is good. And he's good. What would you say to someone who is really struggling with the things that have happened in my life are causing me to question the goodness of God. And I know that you. That you have experienced that. What have some things what that have helped you to reroute your mind in toward the goodness of God.

First that person. I want to say I get it story. We've lived the last year. My dad was killed in a. Really. Anyways, I get it. And you are asking God like, you're the way. Like, I have a lot of whys for the way. Like, I don't get this at all. And if you're really kind, why are you writing a story like this? This doesn't seem kind at all. Right. And I keep going back. It's a story that Ray Bradbury tells. It's about a time traveler. Echo is going to go back in time. And Travis is his time guide. And he tells him if you go back in time, you have to stay on the steel path that we have made for you. Because if you step off the steel path and if you step on a mouse, that mouse can impact. It's like stepping on the grand, making a Grand Canyon across all of eternity. The Queen might not be on the throne. Washington might not cross the Delaware. Every this is a world of ways. If you step off the path, if you step off the way, you don't know how this way affects that way, which affects this way, which affects that way. This is a whole world of ways. There are a million billion ways and the the only one who knows how all the ways are connected to all the ways to navigate and orchestrate all the ways is the way himself. So this spring when my dad was killed and he was killed in the same way that my sister was killed when she was 18 months old, like 40 some years ago they were both crushed under a vehicle. I don't want to like why God, right? Can I trust the Way himself? He's, he's connecting all the ways in ways that I don't understand. And if I needed, if I needed him to answer to me, then I would be God. I don't need those answers. I can trust that a good God is still on the throne. And honestly Holly, I've come to the place where it's all through. Actually it's all through the Old Testament. The word is said and it means the loving kindness of God. I don't believe that he's just a good God. He is a loving, kind God. So even, even in the midst of a story that I don't want that I think is like this seems, seems, this doesn't seem like a good way. It seems like a wrong way. Yeah, I can live open handed enough to trust the heart of my Abba father that he is a good way maker making a kind way in the world. So even when the way hurts me beyond understanding, I can trust he is writing a good redemptive story out of the way. All of these ways connect, Holly.

Yeah, it's so beautiful. I, I, I really am so appreciative of you just being out there and telling and telling this story to people and being able to be a person who's like, I have suffered, I have experienced pain and I still believe in a way making loving, kind, good God. And you talk a lot about miracles in the book.

The book has so many miracles and I just can't that God, he is a miracle. He is a miracle making God all of the time. And I think, I think we See that the Israelites are sustained in the desert by the miracle of manna. And I think when we're in places of suffering, can we trust that in those moments there is mystery? That we will be sustained by things we don't understand? And there will be manna in. In all of those moments. Can we have eyes to see manna all around us? Can we have eyes to see? There will be miracles in the midst of the valleys. Every valley that we're in, we're in the valley of cup hands. And there will be miracles in the midst of that. I am blown away. And miracles, miracles that aren't just between the pages of Waymaker, because there are so many miracles in this book. But the miracles continue to happen like. Like yesterday I signed for someone, the very first copy of Waymaker for someone. And as I was signing it, I finished writing the book as my father was killed. And I was struggling with him being a waymaker in the midst of what seemed like terrible, terrible ways to me. So as I'm signing the book for this very first person, I asked her what her name was. And I thought she would just give me her first name, which is what you would expect when you ask someone. I said, what's your name? And she said, my name is Betsy Morton. And I stopped. I said, that's my maiden name. My father's name was Brian Morton.

Wow.

So in the middle of finishing off of a book after my father was killed, and I thought, oh, Lord, it feels so to be writing a book called Waymaker when our lives seem so devastated with a no way that the first person I would sign the book for in person, the book's not even out. And I signed it for this woman, and her name was Betsy Morton. Felt again like the grace and kindness.

Yeah.

Of Lord. He is. He's. He's a way making God and he's a communicative God. The word never stops speaking. The word will keep speaking to us in the midst of our valleys, Lord. Cause us to turn our faces, our ears and our eyes to hear you and to see you and be moved by your beauty and your glory.

Yeah. And I think when I. When I think about miracles in the middle of pain and suffering, I think that a lot of times in my life, personally, it's in the times, my darkest times, my periods of questioning and wondering and disappointment where God. And I don't think it's that God only gives miracles in those places. I think it's that I'm more open to seeing his miracles when I'm in those places because he. He knows how your heart is hurting. So he's just. He's giving, dropping manna all along the way. And my husband always teaches about how mana means what is it? What it is, what is it? And. And so just, just when you're like seeing these little moments throughout your day going, what is this? How is God speaking to me through this? And I just find that I'm so much more open to it when I'm in those periods of. Of darkness.

And I think, can we trust that the obstacle in front of us, the no way. The obstacle is the miracle in the hand of God. The obstacle that looks like there is no way is exactly. The obstacle is exactly the places of miracles, because there is an obstacle that's exactly where God can move. So do I have eyes to see in the midst of the obstacles? There will be miracles exactly here.

It's so good. And I could do is so good, Holly.

He's so good.

I in. I want people to know that. I want people to experience that. And that's why I'm so thankful for people like you who are out there saying, yes, there's pain, yes, there's suffering, but God is good and he's here and he's making a way for you.

And here he's here, like right here with us in it. And what is in the way is making the way. What is in the way is making the way for us to. To be closer to him, to be more intimate him, to have the life we always dreamed of in Him.

Yeah. I love it so much. And I really, truly, I can't wait for this book to get in the hands of people next week. So before we close, I hope it's okay. I've actually never done this before, but I just feel like I want to pray for you. And I will pray for this book as it goes out. But before we do that, will you tell people there's something special this week? Because if you order. If you pre order the book, it comes out next week. But tell us what happens if you pre order the book.

If you pre order the book. We created six episodes, video episodes from the farm. So there's all the behind the scenes. If you ever want to know all the things Holly about. Here we have the six video episodes, but right now we are doing 40 audio devotional Lenten. So it'll take you all the way through from now until Easter. They're about five to seven minutes long. I will come alongside you with an audio devotional that'll Take you all the way through. So those two are. I mean, there's other pre order incentives, but those are. It's been really fun actually to do the video episodes from behind the scenes at the farm. And those are running about 15 to 20 minutes. And actually last week's was. I had so many messages from people saying, this is so beautiful. I'm sitting here weeping. Please tell us we have access to these long after Waymaker is out into the world. So I just. The six episodes are about the way through in all kinds of different situations. And last week was the way through to the secret of Joy in the midst of hard places and especially coming after. I mean, the world is chaotic and crazy right now. And where do we find Joy? Keep looking for God. Exactly where we don't think he is.

Yeah. So. And if, if I. So I pre ordered the book, but I pre ordered it on Amazon.

Yeah, yeah.

How do I get.

Yes, exactly. So if you go to waymakerbook.com and you scroll down to those pre order incentives, if you just drop in your order number, you go on the email list and we'll get all those six episodes into your inbox, which we've landed them always on Friday. So people watch them on the weekend and it's their fun weekend watch. And then we will send you the audio devotionals every single day with a graphic that goes with the day that really says, today I'm on the way when. So you're, You're. We want you to really have a visual of what it looks like to be on the way of Jesus straight through to. Through our Gethsemanes, right through to Calvary and then to the empty tune. There are resurrections after Gethsemanes.

I love it. I'm so excited. We're going to give away a copy of the book right now. We're giving this book to Tiffany.

Wait, can I do. Can I do this with you? Yeah. This is supposed to be a secret.

Oh, I like.

I really, I. I have enjoyed this so much, Holly.

Me too.

The book. This is the COVID So it looks like it's all waves. And when you can't see away and all you see is waves, when you take the dust jacket off, it's a red sea road. The waves actually part and the Waymaker has made the way through.

Ta da.

There. So when you can't see the way, the way through and all there is is waves. Trust that even when you don't see him working, he is working to make a Red Sea road way through for you.

I Love it. I love it so much. And I can't wait for this book to get in the hands of people. So, Tiffany Pierce, we're giving you a copy of the book. Thanks for being on and for chatting and commenting today. And also Laurel S. We want to send you a copy of Anne's book as well. So if Tiffany and Laurel email me at Holly Furtick YouTube@elevationchurch.org and I'm going to put that email address in the chat to just shoot us an email. We're going to get you a copy of Anne's book. And everyone else, even if you didn't win it, you've got to go and preorder this book right now because I really believe that God has something in this for you. And so I'm so grateful for you and for being with us and I just want to pray for you and pray over this book as it goes out. God, I thank you so much for, for this woman and for the words that you have given her time and time again. And God, we are not asking for a New York Times bestseller because. Because of the accolades that, that. That that brings. But God, we want this book to get into the hands and of. Of millions of people, God, because there are so many people out there right now who feel like there is no way and feel lost in their way. And we want them to know you the way, the truth, the life. And. And we thank you for the vulnerability that Ann brings in this book as she tells stories about her own suffering, her own disappointments, her own failures. And, and God, I pray that you would just put a hedge of protection about her mind and her heart as these words go forth. That she would not be afraid, that she would not feel shame, but she would know that her vulnerability and her honesty are truly helping people to see that there is no shame in our decisions, that there is no shame in our situation. But because of you, God, that you have made a way for us and that when we bring. When we bring into the light our.

Our.

Our. Our life and our issues and our problems with other people, that we find joy and we find healing and we pray, God, that as this book goes forth that you would just get it into the hands of the people who need this message. We love you so much. In Jesus name I pray.

Amen. Amen. What a privilege and a grace to be on the way of Jesus with you. Holly.

Yeah, same here. Thank you so much. And we are going to meet in person really soon. I know it.

Thank you, God. Go with you, sister.

Thank you Love you more. Praying for you this week.

Thank you.

All right, guys, I don't know if you enjoyed that conversation because it was just for me and I let you be just a little fly on the wall and listen to me talk to one of my favorite authors. And so I hope that you will go, you will get a copy of this book, you will pre order it, you will pre order it for a friend and that you will not just buy the book. Because I think that as a book lover, there's a difference between buying a book and then actually sitting down to read it. But I hope that you will buy this book and I hope that you will read it. And let me know in the comments if you got a copy. Let me know if you're watching this later, if you've read the book, what your favorite chapter is, what God is speaking to you through the book. If you like this interview, make sure you like it. Make sure you subscribe so that you know when we're doing more conversations like this. And if this conversation was something that spoke to you, I hope that you will also share it with a friend and. And make sure that this message gets out. I love you. Thank you for being on. Thank you for commenting and I will see you back here next.