Lunchtime Live with Lysa TerKeurst | Holly Furtick

Hi everyone. Welcome to The Holly Furtick YouTube channel. Welcome to a little segment that we like to call Lunchtime Live because it is lunchtime here on the east coast in Charlotte. I don't know where you're watching from. Let me know in the chat. Where are you watching from and is it lunchtime where you're watching and if it is, did you eat lunch yet? I did not manage my time well today and so I have not eaten lunch and I'm hungry but I've got a hot tea here to stave off the hunger. And plus I'm really excited about this interview so I'm going to forget all about being hungry because today we have a very special guest. Her name is Lisa Turker. She's a good friend of mine and I am so excited to talk with her about her new book. But first, before we bring her on, I want to welcome some of you. I've got this handy dandy iPad over here and I want to read some of your comments and you're going to tell me where you're watching from and what did I say? Did you eat lunch? This is a silly question. Is it cold where you are? It's kind of cold in Charlotte today, but I'm, we're, we are finally in our last days of winter now here where we live in North Carolina, we have like all these like head fake springs where you think it's warm to say and then it freezes again. And that's the, the period of time that we're in right now is like winter number three. But I, but it's going to be up to 80 by the end of this week and then I'm hoping that will stay out of the freezing zone in the next couple weeks. And but today when I was picking my outfit, I don't know if anybody else, most of you probably don't do this but I'm like these are going to be the last cold days that we have. So is there anything wintry in my closet that I need to wear one more time before it gets hot? And so today I plan my whole outfit around my shoes. Aren't these cute? They're like fleece line.

I don't know why I'm showing you my shoes.

They're like fleece lined and so they make, they're very warm on your feet. And so I was like, oh, I want to wear those one more time because I definitely won't be able to wear them in the summertime. And so, so there you go. So tell me, where are you Watching from? And what's the weather like where you're watching from? Are you in winter? Number one, two, three, Are you done? Are you in South Florida? Are you in California? All right, so we've got Maya watching. She says agree. Texas is so weird. Marissa Pro is watching from Miami. We know what it's like in Miami down there. All those spring breakers living it up, making the news in Miami. And I know it's warm down there. Let's see who else. Tara says, I did this exact thing. Tara, I wonder what you picked out of your closet that you wanted to wear one more time. Let's see. Mariska says we have the opposite bias.

Hot, hot, hot.

Can't wait for winter. Oh, she must be in, like, Australia or like South America. Southern hemisphere. Okay, but I would rather be hot than cold. I just want to say that. Maybe you guys can chime in. Would you rather be hot or cold? I personally would rather be hot than cold. And so I love summer. I love spring. I do love fall and winter clothes better, but I just, I really don't like to be cold. All this, like, hype right now with the cold showers and the cold plunges. I am not down for it. I don't like to be wet and I don't like to be cold. And so don't ask me. My husband made me do the cold plunge thing one time. I made it. I did the full three minutes. It never got better. I never settled down. I. My teeth chattered the whole time. And so I've done it one time and I'm never doing it again. So there you go. Jeff Burton says. Oh, Tanya is watching from her husband Jeff's account. Hi, Tanya.

Let's see.

Annette is in Hodges, South Carolina. She says winter, this morning, spring. Now that is the truth. Oh, Mariska says she's in South Africa. Tazlin says she prefers the cold. Rose says, I'd rather be hot. I don't like the cold. Sharon says hot over cold. Also, Edwin is in upstate New York and he says it's in the upper 40s right now and I cannot wait for the warmer temperatures. Lori says, agreed, don't like the cold. Hi, guys. I'm so happy that all of you are on here with us today. We've got a great guest and I really want to get her on. So let me introduce my friend, Lisa Turkers. She has a brand new book out. It's called Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. And I can't wait to talk. There she is. Hi, Lisa.

Hello.

Are you home? You're at your house?

Yes. I just got home yesterday from tour. I'd been gone since March 1st, so.

Well, welcome home. I don't think a lot of people know that we are. We're practically neighbors, which is really funny that we're doing this interview. We're both in Charlotte, but, like, our houses are only about, I don't know, 10 minutes apart.

It's right down the street.

So when we talked about doing this interview, my team was like, do you want to do it in person? And I was like, do we have to, like, set up, Do a whole set set and it'll be a whole thing? And I was like, no, we'll just.

Let's just.

I wanted it to be easy. So here we are.

Here we are. If we're going to do something in person, we need to go to lunch, so.

Exactly.

Right. Exactly. And also, Holly, I share in your sentiment with the cold situation. Cold plunge. I. No, ma'. Am. No, ma'. Am.

I don't care. I don't care. I have other ways of calming myself and calming my body and. And lowering my heart rate. I don't need cold water for that.

Water actually increases my anxiety. It causes me to be stressed out. I dread it, and then I'm miserable when I get out and the cold air hits my cold body. So I know that there are scientific reasons why it's good, but I'm not here for it yet.

I'm not here for it ever. I won't even say yet. No, I'm not doing it. There's scientific reasons for everything, and I'm just not jumping on that trend.

So that's okay. You're still a good person. Holly Furtick.

I grew up in South Florida. I just don't handle cold well. That's.

I grew up in Florida, too.

Yeah, that must be it.

Yeah. Most. Totally must be it.

Okay, Lisa. Tour was good.

Tour was excellent. I am so happy to be home. But it was an amazing tour.

What was your favorite stop?

Let's see. Well, we went to so many different places. I loved, actually, when we went through Atlanta because I discovered a new store that you and I have to go to at some point. It's called Linen and Flax. It's amazing. There's a little white bungalow on one side of the street. It's in Roswell, Georgia, and that's their home store. And then across the street is their clothing store. I equally loved both, so I really, really liked that stop a lot because it was fun during the day. We also went through New York City. I always love New York City. And we were down in Texas. I love Texas. So, you know, it was great.

You like, you were on the bus driving all those places.

All those places. We started in San Antonio, went to Dallas and then went through Atlanta. Then we were up near D.C. then upper state New York and then New York City and New Jersey and Michigan and St. Louis. We were all over the place, Holly. Wow.

Okay.

You're.

You're a road warrior. I am not. But we're not going to get into all of that. But I'm not, I'm not. I'm not as. I'm not as seasoned of a traveler as you. And also I don't pack light, so. So there you go.

Yeah. Or maybe you have boundaries that you're really committing. There you go.

Okay. I really enjoyed your book. I got to listen to it on audio because, you know, I'm an audio girl. And then I made my notes on, you know, you can make little bookmarks on audio. And then I went and like put all my little post it notes in of things I want to talk to you about. Good boundaries and goodbyes. I actually. Are you sitting in your kitchen? Are you at your kitchen table?

I'm not at my kitchen table. At my dining room table.

Okay. I remember sitting at your kitchen table. I think it was about a year and a half ago and you were just in the beginning stages of writing this book and you had the title and you said, I am going to write about good boundaries and goodbyes. And for anyone who has, I love also. So the title is amazing. The tagline is also really great. The subtitle loving others without losing the best of who you are. Now, I know why you wrote on this topic, but maybe other people who are watching don't. So start us off. Like, why did you want to write a book about boundaries?

Great question. Well, there was a couple of reasons. One, I had been told by a counselor that I needed to implement healthier boundaries. I needed to work on my people please pleasing my codependency. You know, all those really fun things to hear from a counselor. Great. And part of my struggle was I didn't have the biblical confidence that boundaries were okay for me.

Yeah.

And for a Christian. Because sometimes it can feel unforgiving, sometimes it can feel unkind. Sometimes boundaries feel like you're shoving other people away or ghosting other people. And so all of those are examples of boundaries that people have tried to, but they are unhealthy boundaries. So I had, I had been told by counselor I needed to learn how to implement healthy boundaries. But the, the other reason is I had been through a really, really hard season, about a 10 year season that was heartbreaking and traumatic and resulted at the end in the death of my marriage, which is what I call a divorce. It really is a death, a death of a marriage. And so I knew it was going to be really, really important for me to not only heal from the past trauma, but walk into my future with a lot greater sense of health. And boundaries are certainly a big part of that.

Yeah, I think the book is really great for anyone who is walking through an extreme situation like that, like a divorce or just even like a difficulty that's going on ongoing within your marriage. Maybe somebody who's not is trying to work out keep their marriage. So it's great for people who are going through extreme situations, but there's also a lot of really great handles within the book for people who maybe aren't necessarily in that situation. And you talk a lot about healthy relationships and I love how you say healthy people attract healthy relationships. So talk about the bank account illustration.

Okay, so a lot of times when people say to me, I'm just not good at boundaries, I'll say, well, actually you are good at some boundaries. So then I ask them, do you have a bank account? They say, yes. Okay, so Holly, let's do it with you. Do you have a bank account?

Yes.

Do you have a security passcode preventing all people, all access to your bank account?

Correct. Yes, absolutely.

So even though we're on this podcast today with lots and lots and lots of nice people, would you feel comfortable giving everyone on the podcast today free access to your limited funds?

Absolutely not.

And part of the reason for that is they haven't proven that they are responsible. But another big reason is because you know you have limited funds, you do not have an unlimited amount of funds in your bank account. And you are required to be self controlled, responsible, wise with the limited funds that you have so you can be a good steward of what's been entrusted to you. So we all know this with our bank account. We've made peace with the fact that we have limitations in our bank account. But we forget this in so many other areas of our life. And when we have an area of our life like our time capacity, our emotional capacity, our relational capacity, our physical capacity, if there's an area of capacity in our life where we continue to hyperextend ourselves, we'll go bankrupt just the same as we would if we gave all people all access to our bank account.

Right. And I love how you sort of qualify, which. Hold on, by the way, I forgot to tell everybody I have a couple of books to give away. So make sure that you stay on with us because at the end, we're going to select a few people to give a few copies of this book away, too. So I, I love how you, you equate like, you know, because a lot of, A lot of people we can understand the idea of, no, I'm not going to give everybody access to my bank account, obviously, but sometimes we do give people access to our time. And I love the how you talk about, to our emotions, because those are things that I protect fiercely as well, because I only have so much time and I only have so much emotional energy, and there are only a certain amount of people that can. That I. That I'm gonna give access to those full access to those things, especially my emotions. So what does it look like to limit access to your time and your emotions to someone? What is that? How do you practically do that?

Okay, well, let's do the time one first. So let's say you get an email today requesting that you head up the second grade fundraiser, because when you had a second grader, you, you really did a great job heading up the second grade fundraiser, but you no longer have a second grader, and they're coming to you saying you did such an amazing job, will you please do this again? And you already know, the minute you read that email, you already know that you do not have the time capacity to be able to do that well and keep the best of who you are front and centered. Because if you say yes, you're going to get worn down, worn out, frazzled, and fractured. So that's because you've taken a healthy assessment of your time. Now, do we want to check and make sure we're not being selfish? Of course we do. Right. But most of the time we, we get these kinds of emails and automatically we think their request is my responsibility, their desire is suddenly my demand. Like, they put this demand on me. And so here's a simple way to say no or limit their access to your time capacity to say no to be true to your heart and also to be honest about what you do and do not have to give. So I would just simply reply back like this. Thank you so much for asking me. I'm honored by your request. While my heart says yes, yes, yes, the reality of my time makes this a no. Now, you don't need to explain anything else. My counselors Taught me adults inform, children explain. So that's another mistake. I used to then pull out my calendar, take screenshots, show them. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, no means no. Now if you do have it to give to maybe donate something, then you could add that. I can't head up the fundraiser, but here's what I can give. So it gives you some options. It gives you a way to communicate truthfully, authentically, and without betraying your heart.

Yeah, I really like that. But here's something that I kept thinking about while I was reading this book. On one hand, I was like, yes, I do that. Like, if I got asked to head up the second grade fundraiser, it's an automatic no. There's. I'm just like, would. Even though I might feel bad or sometimes it also, I think it's interesting because that you would have an example like that, especially for women, because a request like that actually makes you feel good about yourself. Because it's like, they need me, they need my help. I did a good job when I did that originally. And so there is something about your ego that does sort of like those, those types of requests. But a place where I really deviated from a lot of the stuff that you talked about in the book. And you're gonna laugh when I say this because you do a lot of like, like scripted role play, just like you literally just did. Here's what I would type out to them. The thing is, I, and I'm not saying this is necessarily in this specific situation, a good thing, but I would maybe just not reply to the email, which I think is a way of maybe not specifically that email if it was, if it was personal. But I guess what I'm trying to say is I think I have a lot of silent boundaries in my life, but I don't necessarily tell the people in my life I have a boundary here. I just say no, like you said, without explaining. Or maybe I take a while to reply to them. I don't know. Does that make sense? Is there ever a time where you can have a silent boundary?

Well, you know, I don't necessarily use the word boundary. I don't necessarily tell people, like, I'm putting a boundary up here. Right. But the problem that I've discovered with silent boundaries, because that seems a lot more convenient.

Yeah.

Problem with it is if the other person is waiting for your reply and time starts to pass and they start thinking, oh, well, surely at any moment she's going to say, yes. The longer that that happens, the Greater, their expectations grow. And so when you finally do have to say a no, it's a much bigger deal yes. And so for me, I've learned to. If immediately if I know it's a no, then I'm tempted to do exactly what you just did. I don't want to deal with it right now, so I'm just going to set it aside. But I've learned that there's power in the small no. It's much smaller if I say no right away because they haven't had time to then depend so much on me that they can't find someone else. And so the power of the small no is just, if you know it's a no, then say no. Of course that means you know it's a no, because then sometimes we're wrestling through like, is this a no? Is it not? So here's what I. I like to do. I like to run ahead to that day, like the day or the day before the fundraiser, and ask myself, okay, is there any sense of dread? If there's any sense of dread, then that's a caution. It doesn't mean it's an automatic no, but it's a caution. There's a reason I'm feeling that dread. And it's not that we're going to be excited about everything. Certainly this is not an excuse to shirk our responsibilities to stop serving at church, to ghost our best friends. You know that's not it. We have responsibilities.

Right.

But not every request is our responsibility. Right.

And I think it's important to understand, like, I hate to use this, it's such an overused word, but priorities. But for me to. In my life, it's not like I. I'm not a journaler. It's not like I've written out, like, who get. Who is my top priority. But I have certain people and certain things that are a priority to me, and then if something extra falls in on that. So, like, for me, obviously, my husband, my children, our church, those are my priorities. And so when something from the school, an opportunity from the school comes in, I have to weigh, like, well, what do I have going on with the other things? Yes, I would like to help. Yes, I, I wish that I could, but I. But like, like you said, like, you look ahead and you're like, I can't. On the day of I am going, everybody that is my priority is going is going to either not be my priority or they're not going to like being around me, you know, and so you just have to, like, Weigh some of those things when it comes to your time. But now talk about your emotions, because there are some people that are in our lives, unhealthy people that are in our lives that we don't get to say goodbye to. And so we do have to have boundaries. How do you. How do you deal with an unhealthy person in your life and. And having emotional boundaries.

Okay, so first of all, let me give this little caveat. We don't want to walk around and start labeling people like you're unhealthy and you're unhealthy and you're toxic and, you know, you're codependent. I mean, because.

Because that's a very unhealthy thing to do.

That's a very unhealthy thing to do. And so instead it's about.

It's about our Taylor Swift song, It's me.

I'm the problem. It's me. So here's what I try to do. I try to say to myself, when I'm with this other person and I'm feeling start. And I start to have these thoughts like, I just don't know how much more of this I can take.

Yeah, I don't.

I don't know that. That I can do this much longer or I'm just tired of dealing with this dysfunctional dance. So if I start hearing myself say that, I'm going to be tempted to jump from one extreme to the other with this person. The extreme of I'm just going to take it and take it and take it because I don't want to deal with the drama of putting a boundary in the situation all the way to, I can't take it anymore and I'm done with this person. So boundaries help us avoid extremes. We're putting a boundary in place so that we can communicate what we will and will not tolerate, what we can and cannot do and what we will and will not accept and what we do and do not have to give. So it's not going to be easy. Healthy people appreciate healthy boundaries. Unhealthy people, my counselor says, has. Have never met a boundary that they like. That's not that I'm going to start labeling people, but I do need to be aware enough to say this is maybe not a healthy dynamic. And one way that you can always tell whether this is a healthy dynamic or not a healthy dynamic is if they respect the smaller boundaries you put in place. If they respect a small boundary, then that's. There's a greater chance they'll respect A much bigger boundary. But you're not putting a boundary on them to change them. Because God never called us to try to control another person. God absolutely says evidence of his spirit in us is self control. So look for the relational chaos. Where there's relational chaos, there's usually some kind of dysfunction. And where there's dysfunction, there's usually a need for a boundary.

Okay, I have so many questions running through my head. So do you mean like, what about the times where you absolutely have to be around this person? How do I have, how do you walk into a situation? So let's say that it's. It could be anything, it could be a coworker, it could be a family member and the holidays. Just people who are in your life and are not leaving your life by your choice at any in the near future. And I mean, if it's your family, they're there.

That's right.

How do you mentally prepare yourself to go into a stressful situation with someone that you can't like? They're not going anywhere. You have to learn how to. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. Okay, so let's just hypothetically say I have an Uncle George. I don't have an Uncle George. And if there's an Uncle George on the call today, we're not talking about you. Okay? So hypothetically speaking, Uncle George, Uncle George reads a lot, watches a lot of news, and you really do respect how serious he is about his politics and all of the current events. You do respect that. And at the same time you have discovered that when heated debates about polarizing issues come up at the dinner table, it is it it you do not have the emotional capacity to handle it well. So you already know this about yourself and now it's Thanksgiving dinner and you have worked really hard to invite everyone over to your house and you are afraid and you're nervous that Uncle George is going to bring up one of these polarizing issues. The emotions are going to get high. And because you're so tired from giving all that you have given to get Thanksgiving on the table, you just know it's not going to go well. So you already know that. So you don't try to control Uncle George, you don't try to control him, but you are going to keep yourself in a space where you can stay safe, sane, stable and self control. Okay? Therefore ahead of time you can call Uncle George and say, Uncle George, I love you and I'm glad you're coming to Thanksgiving. All of that is true. So don't put a but next because if you put a but, that negates everything you just said, so instead you put it, and I love you, and I'm glad that you're coming to Thanksgiving dinner. And I need to let you know that I'm not going to have the emotional capacity to have heated debates or polarizing conversations at the dinner table. I respect how smart you are. I respect that you know a lot about current events, and I'm just not in the space where I can handle that well. So I'm just letting you know I would prefer that you not bring up those topics. But if you do bring up one of those topics, then I'm going to excuse myself from the dinner table, or I will just turn and have another conversation at the end of the table. Not because I'm trying to be disrespectful, but because I actually want to respect everyone there, and I don't want to start acting worn out, worn down, frazzled, fractured, and have a bad emotional response. So you're informing him. You're not saying. Is that okay? You're not asking his permission. You're informing him ahead of time that you. If this, then this. And so if one of those topics gets, you know, brought up, then you don't have to make a big deal. You don't have to huff and push away from the dinner table. You can simply go to the kitchen and check on the pies.

Yeah.

You know, or walk away and go to the restroom. Going to the restroom is always a great out because no one's going to argue with you about going to the restroom.

Yeah. It's so true. It's like, when you play tennis, there are certain things that you can do if you're. If you're winded that slow the game down, like pretend to tie your shoe. So it's kind of like one of those things. Right. You're like, I gotta go to the bathroom. Okay, but. So let's go back to our silent boundaries conversation, because Holly would do all of the second part, but I would not have the phone call. I would just. Because I also think that some people, like, really unhealthy people, they would bring it up on purpose. I know you asked me not to talk about this, but, you know, they brought it up. They brought it up. So, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. So is there ever a time where you set the boundary in your mind of, like. And you talk a little bit about, like, having funerals for your expectation, but you set the boundary in your mind. You're like, uncle George is coming. Uncle George is going to bring up a difficult topic. What am I going to do when that happens? Is that ever okay?

Yeah. So if you already know having a conversation like that is going to do more damage to the relationship then um, then, then good, then. Absolutely. The main thing is you're not putting a boundary on Uncle George to try to control him. That's a mistake that I used to make.

I talk more about that.

Yeah, I, I would say, hey, if you're coming to dinner and you bring this up, then I'm going to ask you to leave.

Right.

That's me trying to control him, control the situation and it's going to do nothing but create a lot of drama and be very frustrating. Now if Uncle George came and was physically harming someone, obviously we would ask him to leave.

Right.

But for the most part we get ourselves in these situations where we have to be discerning if Uncle George is the kind of person that you think there's, there's a good chance that by having this conversation that the relationship can improve. Then fight for your relationship using a boundary so you don't have to spend so much time fighting against one another.

Okay. I love Trevor.

You've tried to have these healthy conversations and this person just will not receive it and they're going to use it as a weapon against you. Absolutely. Then you have a protocol, you have a plan in your mind of what you're going to do so that you're not creating a big scene or lots of drama. And at the same time you are putting a boundary on yourself. You know what to do. Either you're going to walk away, either you're going to go take a phone call, you're going to go to the bathroom and you keep yourself a boundary so that you can keep yourself together. It's not control another person, but it is to keep yourself sane, stable, safe and self controlled.

And it takes a lot of self awareness because to to be able to do that. Because I think a lot of people could take this, this book that has so many good handles in it and use it against other people of an a, frankly an unhealthy person. And so it actually, you know, one of my, my like the, the, my core beliefs is the only person that I can change is me.

Absolutely.

So the sooner that I stop trying to change everyone else and I change me, the better. But the, but, but you. In order to change me I have to face me, I have to know me, I have to admit me. I have to admit that Uncle George gets under my skin. And every time he brings this up, it makes me angry. And I think he's rude and selfish and ruining my dinner and, you know, like, all of these things. Okay, well, I can't control him. But I. How can I control me? How can I set an example in my home, to my children, to my family, to my friends that I am going to change how I respond to this person no matter if they never change? And I love how you talk about in the book, like, sometimes you just have to come to a place where you accept who this person is.

Right.

And, and, and have a funeral for them ever changing any of their behaviors. Because once you accept me, and maybe they will, but it doesn't matter if you never accept. If you, if that person never changes any of their behaviors. I have to change something about me because I don't like the person that I am when I'm around them. And so I love how you, you, you do you get into that in the book. Is there anything that I'm missing where you talk about, like, the funeral for your expectations?

Yeah. So sometimes we fall in love with the idea of who we want someone to be, and then we keep trying to hold them accountable to our making of them rather than accepting reality and, and learning to look at that person for who they are and finding something to love or like about that person based on who they are so that we don't keep all this bitterness in our heart that they'll never be who we want them to be. Now, there are a couple caveats to that. One is, you know, Jesus does say to forgive 70 times 7. Considering the nature and nurture of Jesus, that doesn't mean that we stay in close proximity with that person at all times. So if they don't change and they keep hurting us, then that's not a good situation. I believe when Jesus says forgive 70 times 7, he's saying, keep your heart clean of bitterness and create enough distance between you and that other person that if they never, ever change, you can forgive them 70 times 7 without getting destroyed in the process.

Yeah.

Also, we have to remember, like, when Jesus teaches us that he laid down his life for us and we are to lay down our life for our friends, we have to remember, yes, Jesus laid down his life for a high and holy purpose. Jesus did not lay down his life to enable bad behavior to continue.

Yeah.

So I think we have to, like, take an honest assessment of the severity of the situation, and we also have to take an honest assessment of what it's doing in our heart when we keep expecting someone to be something they're unwilling or incapable of being. And if the bitterness in our heart is causing us, then to treat them really poorly, then that's something that we need to address. Absolutely. In our heart. So having a funeral can release that person to, like, this is who they are. And we will suffer a lot less the quicker that we accept what's really happening. That when we accept reality, then we can deal with reality. But if we never accept reality, we can't properly deal with it. Right.

And if we're always trying to change the person, we just become manipulative and frustrated. I think one of the things that, what you were saying, I, I always think of it this way. Just because I've forgiven someone doesn't mean that I have to trust them again. And, you know, like a very small example is, I don't know if you're like me, but I am chronically late. And it's something that my husband and I have really had to work through. Because when you're late, it's, it's disrespectful. Right. If somebody's waiting on you, you're disrespecting their time. And so just because my husband has forgiven me for all of the times that I've made him wait, that doesn't mean that he trusts me to be on time. And so he may do things, he may say things like, we need to leave at 5:15 knowing that we actually need to leave by 5:30. But if he tells me 5:15, then I'll, you know, you know what I mean? Like, it's, that's not a manipulative thing. That's a boundary. That's him setting a boundary in his heart of going like, all right, I know that she struggled. And that's just, that's a small thing. But just because you've forgiven someone doesn't mean that you allow them access to your life, that you allow them back into your bank account like you started off.

That's right. So forgiveness is a command by God, that's absolute. We are to forgive, and reconciliation is not. Reconciliation is very dependent on whether or not that, you know, they, they start proving themselves trustworthy again, whether or not they're repentant, whether or not they even acknowledge that what they're doing is wrong. I, I love the fact that you're bringing up the on time thing. Another issue sometimes with being one person being late and the other person being on time, it might be that they just have two different definitions of being on time.

Yes.

One person likes to get there 20 minutes early. The other person thinks, well, as long as I get there before the last note of the last praise song, I'm on time. Right. And so it doesn't make this person bad and this person good, or this person bad and this person good. It could mean you just have different definitions of words. And so what I would do in a situation with someone who is constantly making me late is remember, I'm not going to put a boundary on them. I'm not going to try to make them be in the car at 5:15. I'm going to say I'm pulling out of the driveway at 5:15. If you're in the car, great, we can ride together. And that's amazing. If you're not in the car, I'll go ahead so that I can feel at peace being on time according to my definition. And then you're free to get there whenever you can get there. Right. And the only thing that cost you is that you don't ride together, which is so much better than the relationship being destroyed, you know, by being so frustrated with the person who you perceive as making you late. So that's really what boundaries are. Boundaries are a wonderful communication tool, you know, to stop avoiding extremes and to bring things back to the middle where we can just establish what is and is not okay, what we will and will not accept or tolerate and what we do and do not have to give. Obviously always checking whether we're being selfish or not. But I think it's a wonderful communication tool and I think it's underutilized. I'm convinced more relationships die not because we attempt to have conversations about boundaries and they don't go well, but more relationships die because we refuse to have conversations that are needed but just never had.

Yeah, I think that's amazing. And I think a lot of times you have to evaluate. I have to evaluate, is this person worth the confrontation? Because I'm a non confrontational person and. But a lot of times that can cause, you know, bitterness in my own heart. But when you are able to evaluate, like, no, like this is one of my most cherished relationships. And so if I need to have a conversation with them about how can we figure out this thing of me being late and you wanting to leave, let's just take separate cars to church. So, so it's done. Like, but you had rather than. But I think a lot of times when you talk about having emotional boundaries, one of the emotional boundaries is saying like, I'm not going to try and Solve this in the heat of the moment. That the heat of the moment is never the time to, to be. To think that you're going to come to some kind of conclusion or draw up some beautiful boundaries for your relationship with that person. It's, it's, it's later. It's when you're not having the argument that you or that this person is worth the conversation and waiting for the right moment, you know, not always being like, okay, we need to sit down. We need to talk about this. But waiting for the moment, praying for the, the. The timing of the conversation to be right where you can talk with this person about, you know, like, let's, let's try something totally different and see if that works. Because we love each other and we want to work this out.

I love that, Holly. But also, we, I think so many times we think when we're addressing things that. That either need to change or that we need to do differently in a relationship, we see it as confrontation. When I think sometimes we just need to look at it as an opportunity for communication. Yeah. So if I'm having that conversation about someone being late, then maybe instead of pointing the finger at them and accusing them of being late, I take. I point the finger at me and say I have a need to be there 20 minutes early so that I can operate at my best. Yeah. And maybe you're being more creative with your time, and I'm going to give you the freedom to be creative with your time. And at the same time, I'm responsible to take care of me. And so sometimes even, like, I think about maybe conversations we have to have with our parents or our siblings or, you know, people like you said that we do everyday life with, and it can just feel so complicated and hard to, quote, confront them. So instead, I've tried to start looking at it is I'm going to communicate some things, and I'm going to do it in the context, text of protecting our relationship.

Because I love you, because I value this relationship.

Yeah. I have. I have discovered something about myself, and it's a need within me that I'm not asking you to fix, but I'm. I'm informing you of how I'm going to take care of me so that I can continue to love you.

Well. Yeah. So I want to talk about my favorite chapter of the book, which was the part about goodbyes, because I think that as a woman in her 40s, I think that learning how to let people leave release people. Well, is one of the most important skills that you can have. Because I think that we. In my. In my 20s and even in my 30s, I had this expectation that the people in my life were there for the rest of my life. And that's not necessarily true. And I think especially in ministry a lot of times, really, in all cases, though, when someone leaves our life, we take it so personally. And I just want to let people leave, well, and be able to say goodbye. So talk about where you get like the. Where the word goodbye even originates.

Okay.

Love that.

So goodbye originated many, many, many years ago. And the original expression was God be with ye. Okay. Then it got shortened to G, like good, good.

And I had to actually look at it in the book because when I was listening to it on audio, it didn't translate as well as it does when you can see it.

Yes. Okay. So then it got shortened to good B Y, E, B with ye or B W. You know what I'm saying?

Yes, B W, E, Y.

B W Y. And then it got shortened to goodbye. But the original intent of goodbye was sending someone off. Not with the attitude of good riddance, but sending someone off saying, God be with you, you know? And I feel like the art of goodbye, we don't know how to do it emotionally. But also we don't have the biblical confidence that sometimes goodbyes are necessary. And I love that the Bible gives us examples of healthy partings so that it's not always this big, dramatic, awful thing that we see someone's goodbye as a betrayal or we see someone's goodbyes like this ultimate rejection. Sometimes it is a betrayal and sometimes it is a rejection. Right? Sometimes it means you just. You're two good people who have different thoughts about something. And so to prevent the drama from eating you alive, you must part ways. And we see this with Paul and Barnabas in the Bible. And I think what's amazing is the Bible gives us this example and shows us that they had a parting of ways not because either was bad, but because they have a difference of opinion. And their difference of opinion caused the separation. And they both went their own way, keeping their hearts pure and keeping their hearts open. And they served to. To further the gospel even further because they parted ways, right? And then at the end, the very thing that they disagreed about so vehemently was whether or not Barnabas's cousin could join them on. On a future trip. And at the end, we find out that Paul reconciled with that cousin and. And he actually looked at him with such fondness that he would even call him with great affection, like a Son to him, you know. And so I think the secret to goodbye is the God be with you. Like, I'm going to send you off. I can let sorrow and celebration coexist in my heart. I can celebrate what was while still acknowledging the sorrow of what is now. But I can keep my heart pure. I can keep my heart open.

I can.

I'm not going to wish harm on that other person, but rather I'm just going to appreciate that they had a difference of opinion. They had a different. They had a change of heart, change of mind, whatever it is, age of life, even.

You know, sometimes your kids went to different schools and, you know, they were. They went to elementary school together and then they moved and you moved and, And I think sometimes we can over, over generalize, like why somebody's not in our life anymore and it's like they're not in your path anymore. But that doesn't mean that, you know, they're a bad person because they don't call you like they used to or whatever. But like letting people like releasing. And I love how you talk about the memories and, and how redeeming some of the memories and releasing some of the memories and how memories are some of the. The most amazing things in your life and they're also some of the most painful things, you know?

Yes. And I think especially with me, you know, obviously the hardest goodbye I've ever had to say was with the death of my marriage, my divorce, and it's really complicated. When you've spent 30 years with someone, that's a lot of life.

Yeah.

And you've raised five kids together and there are so many memories. And so for a while I started thinking I just had to throw all of that away. But then one day I really had this epiphany. No, those memories, you know, it's my choice. I can choose to keep what I want to keep. I can choose to set aside what I need to set aside. And, and it's my choice. And if there are some pictures I need to throw away my choice, I can throw them away. But there, you know, I knew that I had reached a significant part of my healing when one night my kids wanted to pull out scrapbooks for when they were kids. And when we pulled up the scrapbooks, I was able to look through those with my kids and not feel triggered and, and actually appreciate some of the memories that we had without that feeling of everything is tainted, everything is ruined. And that was a really good feeling. You know, it took time and it took some healing, but it did happen, and I'm so grateful for that.

When I was reading your book and I was specifically reading this chapter, I had this. This weird moment where I realized that I had done something right. Do you know the feeling where you're like, I don't. I don't do this all the time. What I'm about to say is going to make me sound like such a great person, and I. I really don't do this all the time. But it happened to me the other day, and when I was reading your book, I put it all together. So basically I was thinking about a particular person who had left my life, and I was really, like, going back through memories and being like, did. Was what we had real or was it never. Was it more. Was it always more to me than it was to them? And, like, I got in this, like, loop, you know, where you get in this loop where you just, like, you can't. You can't release it, and you're, like, on the verge of bitterness, just like, this. This loop. And I would. I'd been praying about it, and I was like, I. You know, and all of a sudden, I just decided that I was gonna pray for that person because, like, you know, there's David prayers, like, God, curse them. Curse their children.

Yeah. Take their.

Make them go bankrupt. Like, you know, like, all these David prayers and. And. And. And I. You know, they're. Whatever. I don't know. I. I'm not God, so I don't know. I'm sure that God accepts those prayers from us as well. I hope he doesn't answer them. But I just had this moment where I was like, okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna pray for this person. I'm gonna pray for their marriage. I'm gonna pray for their children. I'm gonna pray for their. Their job. I'm just, like. It was very short. It wasn't like I was. I was driving in the car. I didn't get on my knees. I didn't journal. I just, like, very quickly just started praying things for this person. And again, I just want to say I. I don't do this a lot. And it was very hard for me in the moment because it was, like, the last thing I wanted to do. And I was going somewhere, and I did. Said the set did it, and then I. It was over. And I got to the place where I was going, and I went about my. My business. And I literally did not realize until I was reading this chapter of the book that that was what broke the loop in My head. And I went and I ran my errands, and then I got back in my car. And it wasn't like, it wasn't obvious. I didn't even realize it at the time until looking back, I was like, and I still have pain when I think about the situation, but it's not like, it's not as bitter and, and it was like. I don't know, it just like, broke something in me in trying to give them a goodbye. God be with you. God be with you. I don't. Yeah, there's pain, but I. I want to bless you. I want you to go and live your life and, and, and be well and be blessed. I don't want to wish harm on. And it was like that very thing was sort of what broke off, that broke me out of that loop of, of anger and hurt and all of those things. And so I thought that's why it was my favorite chapter, because I realized in that moment that, that I give a goodbye as much for me as I do for the other person when I can sincerely say, and I'm not going to say that I haven't gone back again. It's a cycle, right? But the only way to break the cycle is to just release the person from your life. And I can't imagine what that's like to release a person that you were married to for 35 years. But to be able to look back and say, no, I don't have to lose all of those memories, all of those times that we had as a family. I. I don't have to do that. And I think it's really hard.

It is hard. And you know what I love about your example, Holly, is you were working hard to not let the bitterness that came at you get inside of you. You know, and we have to remember. I. I love always remembering what Jesus modeled for us. And Jesus very much knew what it felt like to be abandoned, to be betrayed, to have people walk away from him, to have people misunderstand him, judge him, the whole thing. Jesus knew all of that emotion. And Jesus felt the gravity of human emotion. In Mark, chapter 14, starting in verse 32, we see Jesus expressing things that really were deep. I mean, he said, this is Jesus speaking. My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death.

Yeah.

And so Jesus was not absent or unaware of the depth of the. The human emotion. And it's from his awareness that he taught us to do things that seem like hard teaching, like, pray for your enemies, bless those who curse you. And, and so it seems I, I sometimes read some verses like that when Jesus teaches and it feels hard and I'll go, well yeah, you're Jesus, so course you can do that. But it helps me so much to remember, yes, he was Jesus and at the same time he was fully human. He was sinless, but absolutely sinned against. And because he felt the weight of human emotion, when I filter his, his teaching to pray for my enemies, to love my enemies, when I filter it through that, I start to understand Jesus wasn't just commanding me to do this. He was teaching me what for my heart. He was do this so that you don't get stop stuck in the bitterness loop. Do this because it'll do something really good inside of you for you to.

Live your life, to enjoy your life in the next phase of your life. And you know, there's that the quote about. I'm probably going to botch this because I'm terrible at quotes, but forgiveness is setting a prisoner free and realizing it was you. Yes, I feel like as a, as a woman, I think women, we, we and, and men too, but women particularly, we struggle with, with bitterness and having a hard time letting things go. And I think the thing that I learned was when I bless other people, I'm, I'm doing it for me as much as I'm doing it for them. I'm doing it because I have to set myself free from these loops of, of pain. And it's counterintuitive and it's not fun, but it those, that's where your healing begins. Or you can just choose to, to live in this like place of anger and hatred and, and blame. Or you can just say I, I don't want to be this person. And you take the hard steps to, to be. Become healthy in yourself. Right?

That's right. Because I, I've. I say this to myself often. Lisa, your heart is much too beautiful of a place for bitterness, anger, resentment, simmering frustrations and the need for retaliation. Like your heart is much too beautiful place for all of that. And you know, where we park our mind, we will steer where we stare.

Yeah.

So if we are staring at this other person and we're so angry and, and we have that unattended to anger, then we're going to steer toward anger. If we're staring toward anger, we're going to steer toward it. And what's interesting is I studied the Bible in preparation for another book that I wrote called forgiving what you can't forget. As I studied these unattended to emotions unforgiveness simmering anger, resentment, bitterness. Anytime we find people and verses that are addressing this, often, it's right there beside that verse where it says, do not give the devil a foothold. It will say, sin is crouching at your door. You must rule over it. Because, you know, when we have all this resentment and bitterness and unattended to anger, it's like dropping blood in the water and the shark draws near. It's just so appealing to the enemy. And the enemy would love to recruit us to help do his work for him. The enemy loves it when we hate other people. The enemy loves it when we have simmering resentments. And so I just. I don't want any part of my life to be pointed in that direction, and I don't do it perfectly. And I have to work at it. I really do have to work at it because it doesn't come naturally. But I've just found if I want to walk into the future whole and healed and not so broken from the past, then I really do have to tend well to my heart and point my heart in the right direction. Yeah.

Because honestly, if you don't, you just become that person that other people have to have boundaries with.

That's right.

And that's. That's the. That's the last person that I want to be. I don't want to be. I don't want my kids or when they're adults or my friends or my family members or my parents. I don't want them to have to draw boundaries. Boundaries with me. Because I've become this person that I. I never wanted to be. And so it is. It's hard work to be healthy.

It is. And we attract people who we are like. So if we. If we want to attract bitter, angry people, then we stay stuck in bitterness and anger, and we'll attract that. But healthy people attract healthy people, and that's what I want for my life. I want to attract healthy people. Therefore, it's my responsibility to work on my health. And it is work.

Yeah. I love it so much. Thank you. It's great. Can you see comments or can only I see comments?

I can see them on my phone. I have them pulled up on my phone. Pick.

Pick a couple people to give a book away. And if you. Hold on. If we announce your name, you're gonna email Holly Furtick YouTube elevationchurch.org and we're gonna put that in the comments. So email Holly Furtick YouTube@enlevationchurch.org or check in the comments. One of my team members will put it in there for you to click and let us know you won. Don't lie.

So do you want me to pick a couple people? Yeah, pick a couple people. Okay. Rose Malaya. M A A L A. Okay, so we'll have to find her, and then let's do Melissa Damastas.

Love it.

And then how many more?

I'm going to pick Colleen. Oh, no, her name went away. Colleen Condon. And everybody is being so kind in the. In the comments. They're saying, this is so good. Thank you for having this conversation. Letting go is the best medicine. Raquel Lopez so said that you can get this book. Good boundaries and goodbyes everywhere. Books are sold. Right. And then, Lisa, you also have. I don't know if you know this, but one of your team members drove this over to my office today.

This.

And you're so good at titles. This is a devotional. You're going to make it. And this comes out later this month.

That's right. Yep. It releases actually next Tuesday.

Okay, great. So can I. Can we give a copy of this away as well?

Absolutely.

All right, so let's pick someone. I don't know. You pick someone. Because I feel like this is going to be divine. Like this person needs to know you're going to make it.

So. Okay, let's do Lisa Maria.

Lisa Maria, you're going to make it. And we're going to send you a copy of this book. Thank you, my friend. Thank you for your words. And I know that you have been working really hard, so I'm just praying that you get some rest in the next couple of weeks.

Thank you, Holly. It's so fun to talk to you. Now we have to schedule a lunch date. And yes, it'll give us both something to look forward to. And thank you all the friends that joined us today. Thank you. Thank you. It was such an honor to spend this time with you.

I love it. Thank you, Lisa. Love you.

Love you, too. Bye. Bye.

All right, guys, I. I know you enjoyed that conversation, and I feel like so many people have just been commenting. This was so helpful. Yolanda says, wonderful chat. Dawn says, this has me feeling all the feelings, all the good feelings, all the. The wonderful feelings and. And wanting to work out those negative feelings. Right. So thanks for joining us today. This video will stay up on my YouTube. So if you know someone that you think would really benefit from this conversation, you can click the little share button and the link, does it go up immediately, the video. So immediately you can just click the share button, share it with a friend that you think it'll be meaningful for. If you have a friend that you think would benefit from this book, just buy it. It's not expensive. So, like, I don't know, probably what, $12 on Amazon. I don't know how much a hard copy book costs, but be generous. Gift a friend the book. Buy copy for yourself. And if you like this video, make sure you hit the like button. If you want more videos like this, subscribe. Also, you can go back through my YouTube. You guys know I do recipes and book interviews. In fact. Oh my gosh, Please plug. I have book club tonight too. It just happened to fall on the same day. I'm just. It's a book day for me. So if you want to join me on book club tonight, that's fiction. You know, it's a little bit more fun than boundaries. But you want to join me on book club? Will be on Instagram. Book club posts are always up. Anyway, do all the things. I love you so much. Thank you for joining me and I will see you back here next time.