Remarkably Bright Creatures Creatures | Holly Furtick Book Club

That's really remarkable.

Thank you.

What we are discussing tonight is Remarkably Bright Creatures by Shelby Van Pelt. How did you like this book, guys? My notes got printed front to back, so I hope I don't get all, like, mixed up in my. The pages of my notes. Okay, so Remarkably Bright Creatures is this delightful book. It's like a mystery, but also a drama, but also, I don't know, would you call it coming of age? Maybe not, because it's not actually coming of age, but like Cameron, the character is sort of coming into himself and maturing. And so you've got Cameron, who's young and immature, and you've got Tova, who is older and has experienced a lot of pain in her life. And you're wondering, you're trying to put together what happened. Tell me how you liked this book. Because the biggest thing about this book is that an octopus is one of the storytellers. How long did it take you to figure out. This is my first question. How long did it take you to figure out that an octopus was telling the story? And how long did it take you to actually, like, settle into it? All right. Jessalyn Delaney says, the octopus was so great. He was my favorite character. Now I have to tell you that my friend Christy was in my office today and she said that Marcellus the octopus was one of her favorite. I think she actually said top three book characters on of all time. That is saying a lot because Christy reads a lot of books. Liz. Liz's reading says, I loved it. It could have been cheesy, but she really pulled it off. Vicki, it says Vicki Swatches. She loved Marcellus. Harris. Harris. Harris re says, the three lines in one. She really liked it. Like the three storylines. Teresa says, I related to Tova and the change of season and not being sure about the future. Olivia Gray says, I knew it right away because you said it in the last live. Haha. That's funny. I did warn you that there was a talking octopus in the book, but wasn't it amazing how it's not fantasy and it's not, you know, that's the dog snoring, in case you're wondering what that noise was. It's not fantasy. It's just. It's just a fiction book with a talking octopus. Ashley says she agrees with Christy. Wow, I didn't know that. Ashley, one of your favorite characters of all times. Lindsay Floyd says, my dog now has an octopus toy named Marcellus. That's funny. I really like that. So Charlotte Fishback says, Marcellus, he was the grandpa telling the story. Bethany says the octopus was so cantankerous that she loved him. And the octopus had. Theresa says the octopus had such a sweet heart towards Tova. So did anybody have to go and Google, oh, my gosh, you guys are going crazy in the comments. Did anybody have to go and Google, like, about the octopus? Like, is this really. Because one of the things that I love about fiction is I love learning through fiction. And a lot of times I'll be telling people something that I know, like, about science. And this actually happened the other day. We were talking about. We were having a conversation about burp, how cucumbers make you burp. And I said that there are burpless cucumbers. And so then we started having this conversation about what is a burpless cucumber? And is it a genetically engineered vegetable? So then we started talking about that. I was like, well, you can. You can genetically change. Change fruits and vegetables without being in like a, A, A lab, A science lab. Anyway, I learned it from a fiction book about apples. I also learned a lot about peaches from that book that I was telling you about earlier that I read. What was it called? Go as a River. I learned all about peaches. So I say all that. To say that might seem like a weird tangent, but I love learning through fiction and I trust that the author is doing a lot of research. And although I know it's fiction, I do realize that there's a lot of truth in these books. So I definitely had to go and look up about octopus. Octopuses. Beloved said. I did Google about octopuses and learned so much. And if you are a part of the Holly Ferdy Book Club, I sent you a little link to an article that was all about how they can solve complex problems and how they can live outside of the water for, you know, whatever it was like 18 minutes or whatever it was. I wonder how many people have googled octopus since this book was released because it was so popular and on the New York Times list. Like, how many people have gone back and learned about this amazing creature? Did anybody think about 6:30 from. What was that book that we all loved, Bonnie Garmus's book Lessons in Chemistry, which was also a Holly Furry Book Club pick. And we got to talk to Bonnie. But I think that if it. That reading that book made me settle in faster to an octopus telling the story because I had already bought into 6:30 the dog in. In. In Bonnie Garmus's book. So anyway, let me read some more of your comments, Jess. Jess Lynn says, I love how Marcellus thought humans were remarkable creatures at the end. I know we have to ask Shelby how she came up with that title and. And how she chose to throw it in there at the end. Just a few more questions for you guys for us to discuss before we bring Shelby on. All right, so we got Marcellus, and then we have Tova, who was a widow and a mother, a grieving mother. And I loved Tova's likability. I loved her grit and how she was dealing with her grief and trying to live through it. I was frustrated. Tell me if you agree with this. What did you feel about Tova, and were there parts of the book where she frustrated you? So, for me, I was really frustrated with her, how she wouldn't open up to her friends, how she had kind of just decided that they didn't understand, they couldn't understand, or she didn't want them to understand what she was going through. And almost like, I feel like she thought maybe that she had. They didn't under. They thought she should be over her grief at this point, and she wasn't willing to be over it. Bethany says, I love the gossipy store owner and how Tova replaced his shirt. That was a funny scene. Was it a Grateful Dead shirt? My husband and I love vintage T shirts. He actually gave me a vintage Neil Young T shirt for my birthday and a vintage Beatles T shirt, which they're both amazing. And so I. When I. When she cleaned up the wine with the vintage, I'm pretty sure it was Grateful Dead T shirt. I was like, oh, no. And I love how she went and tracked another one down and bought it for him. That was a great scene. I'm so glad you reminded me of that. Caitlin says, I was frustrated, too. I actually really like Tova's friend group. Me, too. I mean, like, they were great women, and they were trying, but they just. She was just so. She was just in a place where she wasn't able, I think, to let them in. And I was so frustrated with her for that. Okay, how about Cameron? What was a moment where you were. I guess I used the word frustrated twice here in my questions. The bad, bad vocabulary choices here. How about Cameron? What did he do that made you go, no, no, no, don't do that. Okay, so here's mine. For me, when he bought the motorhome, the camper, I was like, why are you doing that? Why are you spending all your money on a camper? And just like, so many little things that he did, like that that were so frustrating.

So.

But also, I felt like, made his character really realistic because often people that like that. That are in our lives, they make decisions, and. And. And it can be really frustrating. Lindsay says, when Cameron quit. Oh, yeah, me too. I was like, no, no, don't quit. Because, you know, they're so close to, like, real, like, you know, how they're. How they are connected, and they're so close to finding it out. And you get to this part in.

In.

In the book where you're, like, wondering, are they ever actually gonna find out how their stories are connected? I just thought that was. That was so. Such a great part and so frustrating. Jay. JG Claire says, when he checked the jewelry in his bag, right? You're like, wait, why did you do that? Somebody just said, Southern Sassy said, I wanted to shake him. And Porschland says, when he tried to hastily leave, how Shelby. Let's see. I loved how Shelby tied his mom to Toba's son. Right? I mean, that was great. So here's a quote from the book that. That I. That I wrote down. Okay? It says this, but for the form, but the former cleaning lady and her replacement, they walk alike, observes Marcellus. And with that, 50.

This.

This question came from libromaniacs. They say, 50 into the book, we get a clue into Cameron's circumstance and his place in the story. Did you see that coming? I'm gonna say, no, I didn't see that coming. In fact, like, I was just letting the story happen, so much so that I kept wondering. I'm like, how what is going? Who was this kid? Like, I want to go back to the Octopus. I want to go back to Tova. And I did not see that coming until. Yeah, about halfway through the book, I'm wondering, did you see that coming? Did you see that their stories were gonna be connected? I loved how the Octopus is the one that sees it for us, and that makes us think that he's even wiser and even smarter than, how can an octopus be that? But he's the one that, like, makes the connection for me too. I just thought that was brilliant. Let's see. Harris says, no, that was great. Surprise. In the book, Gail says, nope. Cat says, I can relate to you, Holly. Nana says, no, I didn't see it coming, but it was awesome. Beth, my dog drives me crazy, says, yes. Steph says, it reminded me of demon Copperhead finding his grandma. Leslie says she suspected it throughout the book. And then, let's see. I want to read one more. Not initially. Oh, Guys, they're coming too fast. Guys, let's bring Shelby on, because we got to talk to her about how she came up with this idea and how these characters came alive to her. Are you ready?

Hi. Hi, Holly. How are you? So good.

Thank you so much for joining us tonight.

Yeah, thanks for having me. Sorry for the glitch. I didn't realize I was out of date, but, you know.

No problem. Our last book club the author was in was in the UK and we got our times mixed up, and so I had to do the whole book club without the author. And so I was panicking for a.

Second when you didn't come on.

But, yeah, you're here now.

I know it's tricky. I feel like lately I've had. Almost had that situation because some places do daylight savings time and others don't, and so it's like it's always shifting. It's very confusing.

That is exactly what happened to us. So, anyway, I'm thankful that you're here, and I'm so. I just. We so enjoyed this book. I know I'm not alone in saying that I enjoyed this book, that this book has been on the New York Times bestseller list, that it was read with Jenna. I mean, all these amazing accolades for this book, but I'm one in thousands that just really, really enjoyed this story. So thank you for pushing through and getting it out there.

Oh, thank you so much.

Do you have a passage to read? We always love for the authors to read a little section for us. I'd love to hear it in your voice. Do you have one?

Sure. Yeah. I'm going to read one that I've been reading a lot at book events lately. There's no spoilers. It is a Marcellus section. It's just one that I've been thinking a lot about lately. Like, a theme that's come up in a lot of my book talks lately is how I feel like Marcellus has made me a better person through the writing of this book and just, you know, continuing to talk about it after it's been out in the world. This is. Oh, this is like, maybe 20% of the way through the book, but. And I have to have to always give my disclaimer if any of y' all did the audiobook. The narration for Marcellus is amazing in the audiobook, so I always feel like I can't compete with that, but this is my best, my best shot. So this is marcellus on day 1306 of my captivity. I am very good at keeping secrets. You might Say I have no choice. Whom might I tell? My options are scant. To the extent I am able to communicate with the other prisoners, those dull conversations are rarely worth the effort. Blunt minds, rudimentary neural systems. They are wired for survival and perhaps expert at that function. But no other creature here possesses intelligence like mine. It is lonely. Perhaps it would be less so if I had someone with whom to share my secrets. Secrets are everywhere. Some humans are crammed full of them. How do they not explode? It seems to be a hallmark of the human species. Abysmal communication skills. Not that any other species are much better, mind you, but even a herring can tell which way the school it belongs to is turning and follow accordingly. Why can humans not use their millions of words to simply tell one another what they desire? The sea, too, is very good at keeping secrets. One in particular, from the bottom of the sea, I carry with me still. That's Marcellus. And, yeah, I just love the idea that, like, we really are bad at using our words sometimes. Like, I'm 42 years old, and sometimes I find myself in these passive aggressive conversations or attempts at communicating where I, you know, I can't just manage to say what I mean to say or say what I want. And so I just. I think about that one a lot. So I thought it would be fun to read tonight.

I love it. And I love how, you know, you.

Have.

Animal observing humans instead of humans.

Observing the animal and the things that he observes about them. And you just, like, you just pulled it off so well.

So take me back, because I want to talk a lot about Marcellus, but take me back.

So do I.

This is your debut novel, but what does that actually mean? Because I find a lot of times, debut novel isn't actually your first novel that you been writing your whole life. How did you get to this where you actually sat down and you're like, this is the book. I'm gonna give it my all?

Well, it is the only novel I've ever written so far. I'm working on the second one, but, you know, the jury's still out on that. Yeah, no, I came to creative writing, I guess, relatively late in life, which is to say I was in my 30s, which is not that late. But, you know, I liked writing as a kid. It was always, like, my strongest subject in school. I did a lot of writing of sort of the journalistic variety. You know, I did editor of my high school paper, that sort of thing. But I just never really thought I was creative enough to write fiction. And I was in this kind of a little bit of a transitional space in my life when I was in my, like, late 20s, early 30s, and had some time and decided to try experimenting with it. And so I was in this head space where I feel like I was just hunting for characters in the wild, which I still do a lot. You know, it's the stereotypical. Like, you're eavesdropping on someone at a coffee shop and just looking for these little crumbs that you can take and make into a story. And I was just on the Internet one afternoon, probably just wasting time, like, avoiding something else that I was supposed to be doing, and I went down this YouTube rabbit hole. And I know that earlier on the chat, some people were saying they had kind of gone down a similar rabbit hole of, you know, you Google these octopus videos and you start seeing just video after video of octopuses solving puzzles and, you know, escaping through these incredibly tiny spaces that just. It doesn't seem like it should be possible and doing all these amazing things. And so I kind of, you know, had that little, you know, crumb of a thought that, like, that would make a fun character. If you could. If you could. If I could give that octopus a voice, what would that voice sound like? And, you know, I do this. I think a lot of people do this all the time with, like, our pets. You know, I certainly do it with my cats. I, you know, will sometimes be, like, alone in my house with my cats, and they're looking at me, and I, you know, I start talking as what I think they're saying in their mind. So I just kind of started doing that, and that was where that kind of cranky voice came from. That I just felt like this octopus would be incredibly frustrated because it would think that it is superior to the humans who are keeping it captive. And at the time, I knew, I knew, you know, I knew probably about what the average person would have known about octopuses. I knew that they were very smart, and I knew what I had learned in this trove of videos that I had feasted upon on YouTube. But, yeah, I just. I just had this idea that this octopus would. Would be looking down, would be observing the humans would be bored and would be kind of looking down on them from inside that tank. And not too long after that, I kind of, on a whim, signed up for a continuing education creative writing class. I was sort of living in a new city and kind of just looking to meet people and take a stab at doing something that, you know, I kind of thought I might be Able to do. And in that class, we got this writing exercise where we were supposed to explore an unusual point of view. And so I thought immediately of that octopus and I, you know, we were jotting down on notebook paper because I'm old enough that this was before we had. You know, people were bringing tablets and laptops everywhere. We literally had, like, lined notebook paper. And, you know, that little writing exercise basically became the opening chapter of the book, you know, where Marcellus is introducing himself and communicating how many days he has left. He's. He's watching the clock. You know, he's sort of a classic stoic in that way. He's just meditating on his death day after day, and he's bored. And so. Yeah.

So you're 42 now.

Yeah.

So 12 years ago, you took.

And.

You wrote a piece through the perspective of Marcellus.

Yes. Wow. Okay.

So how did you get from that to this?

Well, so it was. There was a lot of kind of on and off over the years. You know, I did that class. It was great. The teacher was very encouraging, was like, this is fantastic. You should really develop this more. I thought, okay, well, maybe I could keep writing this character and see what happens. One of the greatest things that I got out of taking that course was that I met other writers who were sort of in a similar position, and we were able to form, like, critique groups that, you know, a lot of them. I'm still in touch with them today, but, you know, for the first time, probably like six or seven years, I would pick it up and I would, like, write the first chapter over and over again. I really had a lot of trouble getting beyond kind of that, like, 20% mark, that place in a book where it goes from, you know, we're sort of introducing all the characters to kind of going into what we call act two, sometimes kind of leaping into the actual meat of the story. I had a really hard time leaping over that barrier.

But did you have an outline? Did you know that Tovah and Cameron were connected and there was this death? Did you know all of that, or did that.

Oh, gosh, no. The only thing I knew. So as soon as I had written that first scene where it was Marcellus saying it's day, whatever, whatever of his captivity, I had in my mind, day one of my freedom. So I knew that if I was going to, you know, when I started more seriously trying to make a novel out of this, I knew that that's what I was working toward is somehow this octopus is going to get free and taste that Open water before he dies and have something to say about it. So I knew that I was working toward that. The human characters were really a mess at the beginning, and they really stayed kind of a mess through a lot of the early drafting I played around. So Toba, her character is the second character that I sort of established. She actually stayed pretty. Like, once I kind of figured her out, she was kind of constant. I struggled a lot with Cameron when I wrote the first draft. He was initially kind of like a younger teenager and was similarly kind of frustrating and the kind of person you want to shake. But, you know, when someone is like, 14 or 15, that's kind of okay. Right? Like, we kind of expect a teenager to act that way. Right. And so I had written, gosh, probably like 60% of a draft when I realized, oh, I really need to, like, age him up. And. And obviously that also in that earlier draft, there was a different relationship between him and I think they were like a great grandmother versus a grandmother, because that's just how the. But yeah, when I aged him up, then he sort of became this, like, man child, which was a lot easier to write. Like, okay, this. This character is frustrating, and this is why he's frustrating. And we need to, like, put him on a journey to fix him. But, yeah, you know, a lot of the details with sort of the mystery and how the characters would realize they were related and how that would all shake out. I went through a lot of trial and error. I really didn't know how that was going to work when I sat down to more seriously try to write a draft, which really didn't happen until, like, late 2019. I was on and off with this for many, many years. And I, you know, I had my children during those years, and I was, you know, my husband worked long hours and traveled a lot, so I had my hands full. You know, I'm not. I was okay with what I was doing. I didn't need to be also trying to write a novel during that time. But I would pick it up once every so often and sort of play with it. But, yeah, it was 2019. My. My younger son, who's no. 7, was in preschool full time.

Wow.

And I had read the book Soul of an Octopus by Simon Montgomery. I don't know if you're familiar with this. Let me see if I've got it handy. It's probably not. Oh, yeah, here it is. It is a fascinating book. It's nonfiction. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. It's fantastic. Simon Montgomery is a nature journalist and she basically embeds herself in this book in aquariums and kind of shadows folks who handle giant Pacific octopuses and talks about their relationships and the different personalities that these octopuses have and sort of the science behind it. But I read this book, and I thought, oh, my gosh, this is basically the character that I had was trying to explore for all these years, and I really should finish this book. So, you know, reading this kind of kicked me in the butt. You know, that was like, fall of 2019, and I had, I don't know, maybe, like, three or four good months before COVID hit.

Okay.

And then it was like, all right, well, I guess we'll just keep doing this because we're going to do it. I had a critique partner who I had an accountability schedule with, and, you know, we just decided to sort of keep going. We thought about quitting definitely more than we will have. Young kids at home was like, why am I trying to write a book right now? Like, why is it not enough just to survive this period? But, you know, I think in hindsight, it was sort of being able to escape into my book and into writing was like, yes, it absolutely kept me somewhat grounded during that time. So what, like, you decide you're gonna write it at this point? Have you done.

Have you learned, like, so much about.

Or did you actually go back and, like, learn more? Like, what was your research like? Yeah, so. So early. Early on in the process. So I live in the suburbs of Chicago now, but when. When I. When I took this continuing education class, and when this whole process started, I was living in Atlanta. So my first thing that I did was I spent a lot of time at the Georgia Aquarium, which is fantastic. And, you know, I bought a membership. My daughter was a tiny, tiny baby at that point, and she was. She was such a difficult baby. She wouldn't sleep unless she was strapped in the ergo baby thing, you know? And, like, I had to be, like, bouncing at a certain rate with her on my chest in order for her to now. So that's what I would do. Oh, my gosh. I know. Why do we ever have another one after that? I don't know, but we did. But, yeah, so I would go with her to the Georgia Aquarium, and we would. I would balance her in the carrier, and I would, like, wait for the octopus to come out. So I did a lot of, like, observation, just thinking, like, can I, like, what is this octopus saying? And, you know, octopuses are pretty shy. Like, it didn't actually come out a lot. There was A lot of sort of wasted time. But, you know, I guess it wasn't really wasted, but, you know, it was a lot of waiting, I should say. And when I got into the more kind of actually plow through and finish this draft, you know, I had sort of taken those observations. I had written a bunch of like, scenes where, you know, an octopus was just making observations and talking. And I would come across wanting Marcellus to do something and I would just Google like, you know, what is like, how long can an octopus stay out of water? Okay, you know, how. How do octopuses get anesthesia? You know, and oftentimes it will result in going down like another fresh rabbit hole on YouTube. But, you know, I sort of didn't like, I did a lot of research while I was drafting, but I also just kind of left a lot of placeholders. I didn't want to get so bogged down in the research that it like stopped me from moving the story along. So I left a lot of just flags where it was like, you know, this seems possible, but let's check. And then when I was editing is when I, you know, kind of on that second and third pass of that draft is when I really got into the weeds of what an octopus can and can't do. And, you know, had some friends who were in marine biology read it and got some assistance from some folks who actually do octopus rescue up in Alaska. They were very nice. And this is like all happening during the pandemic. So I think I'm like emailing these people at home my, like, weird questions about.

They don't have.

Yeah, they probably didn't, but. But yeah, I learned a lot. It was so great. You know, just, I'm not an octopus expert. Like, I never will be a scientist, but it has been just so fun to learn as much as I have about them. And I feel like I'm still learning. I feel like almost every week a new article comes out that is detailing something that scientists have uncovered about octopuses and what they can do. It's just incredible.

So, okay, you're from the Pacific Northwest and this book takes place there. Are there any biographical places or even like semi biographical characters? Like, I interviewed an author one time who said that she always put her grandmother in. Is there anything like that, especially pertaining to the location that you work your way into the book?

Yes, absolutely. So the Tova character is very much based on my grandmother. So that's a fun thing I have in common with the other author there. Yeah, my grandmother was a. This tiny little Swedish Woman who was so kind and so hard working, but very, very stoic, like, never kind of let her emotions show, was just really guarded about. About her own vulnerability. And my grandfather was about 10 years older than she was, so she lived for a long time by herself after he had passed and just kind of kept up her same routines and like, like, physically kept going until she, you know, literally couldn't anymore. She was in her 90s, and I think I just. We were so close when I was a child. I lived next door to her. I was an only child, and so she was like my child care for a lot of the time. I spent so much time with her, and I think part of me felt some sort of way about drifting apart from her when I was in my 20s and I'd moved away from home, and I never really got to see what was underneath this sort of Scandinavian stoic veneer that she put on. So I think in writing Tova, I was exploring that, like, not that she should have lived her life in a different way, because I don't know whether she was happy or not, but I wanted to just like, probe that a little bit and wonder what might be underneath a woman like that who is so guarded and so unwilling to accept help. One of the things that occurred to me after I had written the book, and I was very convinced that I had written this character that was nothing like me. I was just totally reinventing the wheel here. But I think Tova in the book is basically like me when I had young kids, okay? Just thinking that I had to do everything. Like, hesitant to lean on my community, hesitant to let people in and let people help. You know, like, we had, you know, friends and neighbors that wanted to help, but I just, for some reason, felt like, you know, I can't be a burden. Like, this is. This is my job, you know, I have to. I have to do it all. It's important to, you know, keep the facade intact, I guess. Or, like, you know, I had really bad, like, postpartum depression and anxiety. Like, inside I was crumbling, but I felt this need to just keep the. Keep the exterior stout and sturdy, you know. So I feel like I probably was somewhere in my subconscious exploring that when I was writing Toba, having, you know, kind of recently been through that. And, you know, at the time, I didn't know that, obviously. It's only in hindsight I feel like that sometimes we can look back and be like, oh, I was such a bonehead.

Well, how therapeutic, though, to like, have been able to write what some of what you were feeling and experiencing, but through a character that is nowhere near your age or your stage of life or, you know, not even going through similar situations, but that you are able to really channel what she was feeling through your own experiences. That. That's. It's really.

That's.

That's really remarkable.

Thank you.

So talk about the title. When did you know that that was. That this was the title? And you don't reveal the title till the very end of the book, like, the last.

The last page, almost the last sentence. Right.

So when did you know? Like, did you always know this was the title, or was it difficult to come by?

So it. The title came pretty late in the game. It's actually in two places in the book. It's in the first chapter and the last chapter. It's on. It's. It's a phrase that is on the plaque beside Marcellus's. You know, the little information thing that talks about octopuses. And it was, I think, always there or something close to that was there. But I didn't. I had no title for most of the time that I was writing this. It was literally on my computer as, like, marcellus, you know, V12 underscore, final dot, you know, really final dot, really this time, you know, but, yeah, it was. It wasn't until I was kind of getting ready to query it to agents that I, you know, one of my writing group friends pointed out to me, she's like, do you have a better title? I'm like, no, I probably should, right? And someone shared with me this title writing exercise where you basically go through your book and mine. Mine the text for significant phrases. Like, it asks you all these questions about, like, you know, street names like restaurants. Just, like, little tidbits in your book that could be pulled out and made into something memorable. And I remember coming across that phrase, remarkably bright creatures. And it was just, you know, if you. If you Google anything about octopuses, you know, you will see most of these, you know, particularly some of the. More like, I don't want to say the. The articles that are your torn children, but, like, maybe the less scientific ones. It's just a common thing. It's like always. Octopus. Octopuses are remarkably brilliant. Octopuses are surprisingly smart. Almost everyone has some variation on this, like, phrase. So I just thought that would make a great title. As soon as I kind of pulled it out, I was like, okay, I think that's the winner. We're gonna. We're gonna do it.

Did you have it at the beginning and the End.

I did not. I did not.

You slipped it in there at the end for us.

You know, there was something else that was in there that the set, the thought was there, the idea was there, but the actual exact wording wasn't there. And it was one of those, you know, I don't know how it all comes together. Sometimes I feel like, for me, writing a book is almost very similar to reading a book where it is just this process of discovery and you come upon these little things that present themselves to you and surprise you. And, like, that was one of them. Like, somehow that worked out. I don't know. I didn't plan it, but it did.

All right, so you spent essentially 10 years dreaming, thinking, writing this book. What was it like when you finally hit send on the final manuscript? What were your feelings? What was that like to know, I'm done with that story?

I mean, I think writers often talk about, like, kind of, like the writing hangover.

Yeah.

And I definitely felt that a little bit, particularly because, you know, when my. It was a very fast or very, like, short window of time between when I think my agent actually got the query that I had sent her. And then she, like, wanted the full manuscript, and then I sent it to her, and then she read it in, like, a day. And then, you know, wanted to sign me. And then it's like, okay, well, let's do this. Can you send it back? Blah, blah, blah. And so I was just, like. I felt like I was scrambling for, like, a week to just get this all ready and on the up and up and shipped off in its final form. And so, yeah, I definitely was a little bit sleep deprived and just had this kind of, you know, like, mental hangover of like, okay, what do I do now? Like, this is. You know, I've been working nonstop on this for the last, you know, eight, nine months. I think I took a break. I mean, I know that I. I don't think I even thought about writing another novel until months later. You know, I did some short stories and stuff, but I definitely kind of took a break from the longer form writing for a while.

Do you miss Marsellus?

I do. I really do. You know, I sometimes say it felt like he became this kind of like, Jiminy Cricket on my shoulder type character.

Yeah. Yeah.

And because I was, you know, when I was in that intense drafting period, I really did try to write every day. And a lot of times my writing day would start with writing something from Marcellus point of view. He was almost like the writer's block Breaker, because I could sit down and not know what I was going to do with my draft and, you know, have zero idea of where to go with everything. But I could always depend on Marcellus because he always had thoughts about things. So I could just kind of sit down with a blank page and say, well, what's Marcellus thinking today? You know, what's he ranting about? And he, you know, he has a hot take for everything. So, you know, I wrote a lot of those scenes, a lot of them, like, didn't make it into the final draft of the book. But that was sort of my, like, you know, my mental jog, my mental warm up was to see what Marcellus was up to. So I got very used to just spending time with him every day and I would start to hear his voice, you know, when I was not writing, his opinions on things that were going on around me.

That's funny. How much did the manuscript change from the one that you completed and turned into this agent to, like, the copy that we read? Did they keep the majority of the book or was there a lot of editing?

You know, I. I don't know that I have a great context for that because this is my first book. It didn't seem to me like there was a ton of editing, but at the same time, like, it was like the editing part was a lot of work.

Yeah.

I would say that the most significant thing that changed was the version that I sent to my agent that I queried, had an additional point of view in it that we ended up cutting out entirely and just leaving this character off the page. Sometimes I like to make people try to guess who that was. But I can tell you if you don't want to guess.

I think that it was the guy that owned the store, that ran the store. What was his name with the T shirt?

Oh, that's Ethan. No, yeah, no, Ethan is still in there. It was actually. It was Cameron's mom. I had some chapters that worked from her point of view. Out of this, he took her completely off the page. Yep. And it was the sort of thing where it was introduced really late in the book where she was kind of addressing the reader and she's, you know, out in eastern Washington and she's, you know, ruminating on her life and, you know, what has happened with it. But my agent just basically said, you know, you can't just throw. You know, you've already established this pattern of like, you know, here's Tova, Cameron, Marcellus, occasionally, Ethan. You can't just throw this Other character in, like, 75% of the way through the book, like, people are going to be thrown off. And she was totally right. And also, I was kind of using it as a shortcut because. So Daphne Cameron's mom is the only. This is a little bit spoilery, but I'll try not to make it too spoilery. She's the only person alive who knows certain information, and I wanted to convey that information to the reader. And so my solution was, let's just give her the microphone. And my agent was like, well, that just kind of feels, you know, given how intricate the mystery is in the rest of the book, that feels, like, kind of cheap, you know, to just say, well, I'm gonna take the stage now and say, oh, I remember when this happened. And, you know, there's that. So we cut her out and we found a different way to sort of work around that and convey, like, most of that still to the reader. But it is, like, a little bit more vague in the final version.

Okay, wow. Well, thank you for pushing through and getting this story out there because it has brought a lot of people a lot of joy. So we're just all really grateful.

Thank you.

Let me ask you two quick questions before you go.

Sure.

First of all, any hints on what you're working on now?

Yeah. So I am working through the second novel, which a lot of times authors will say that is, like, the hardest novel of their career. Particularly if you have a first novel that is successful. You know, you're just writing in the shadow of something that's really big. So it's, you know, it's going slowly. I think I am learning the skill of having to separate my brain from, you know, thinking about, you know, Marcellus and Tova and that cast to like, writing this other book, which is, like, it's not a sequel or prequel. In. In my ideal world, I'm gonna have it take place in the same world and have a little bit of crossover with some minor characters, because I love it when authors do that. It's like my favorite thing, but, you know, no promises. I'm still trying to make it work, but, yeah, I think it's just, you know, writing with some of off the part of my brain. To me with every sentence I write. Are people going to like this? You know, when I was writing remarkably bright, I never thought anyone would read it. I mean, I hoped they would, but, you know, how many people write novels and how many people actually have them published? Like, the odds just are not great. So it's like, I was just writing this and I was entertaining myself with it and not really thinking about like, you know, what are people going to think? Every sentence. So turning that part of my brain off and learning to just get in the flow is definitely a skill that I'm working on.

My last question. What would you recommend we read this summer? What do you love? What are some of your favorite books? What's behind you?

Oh, my gosh. Well, some of it is aspirational. I have not read every book that's on the shelf behind me. But like, like many of you, my TBR is just constantly growing and I have a book buying problem. But I did, I did pull out some things I've loved lately. This is the Farewell Tour by Stephanie Clifford. Okay. I actually picked this up because it takes place partially in Tacoma, Washington, where I'm from. And it is just such a fun book about sort of a. It flips back and forth between like the 80s and now, which I also think is fun because I'm an 80s kid and about a musician who is, you know, kind of coming to the end of her career and wrapping up all of. All of her. Her experiences and feelings around that. It's. It's a really fun book. I think it'd be a good beach read. It's not, it's. It's very, like, easy. Okay.

It's called the Farewell Tour.

Yes. By Stephanie Clifford.

Okay.

And this is one of my. This book. Okay. This next book made me sob. It is the Celebrants by Stephen Rowley.

Okay.

I just think it is such a. The concept of it is basically there's this group of friends that one of their group passes away when they are seniors in college and so they have this funeral for him and they're talking about his life and sort of celebrating him. And they come up with this idea that like, hey, we should really do this when we're still alive. And so they did. I read about this book. Yeah. Oh, my God, it's amazing. It just. And Stephen Riley is so funny. I am such a sucker for books that literally make me laugh out loud but then also make me cry. And he's just a master of that. So that's one of my recommendations, I think. Comes up May 30th. It's not quite out yet. It's out in a couple weeks.

Okay. I read somebody I follow on Instagram had a pre release copy and was talking about it.

Yeah, it's. It's amazing. I mean, it is just one of those books that, like, you know, I haven't stopped thinking about it since I read it. Like, I feel like it just keeps popping into my head occasionally, like, something will happen, and I'm like, oh, well, you know, the friends and the celebrants would have called, would have invoked the pack when that happened. You know, it's just like. I guess it's like, a high concept is what agents call it. You know, it's just very, like, memorable.

Yeah. I love it. Awesome. Hey, thank you so much for being on with us and for chatting with us and for such a great story. We all really, really enjoyed it and hope you have a great evening.

Thanks so much for having me.

Thank you.

Thank you. Sat.