The Good Sister | Holly Furtick Book Club

It's book club night. I'm excited that you are here with me. I have a mug of tea. We used to sell these mugs, but I think they're all sold out. But it says I'm all booked up. This is one of my favorite mugs. Some of you are probably wondering what is book club and what book are we discussing? Well, I'm glad you asked. We are discussing the Good Sister tonight by Sally Hepworth. Sally is going to be joining us to talk about the book. See if I can show you. Well, you'll see her in just a second, but Sally is gonna be joining us to discuss. I'm so excited. I gotta warn you, if you are a first timer or if you haven't had a chance to finish this book yet, you're gonna want to pop off here in just a second. But if you haven't finished the book, I gotta tell you that we do spoilers here because this is a book club. This isn't a book review where I'm gonna tell you to read the book. I already told you to read the book. Let's last month. So we're going to talk about the book and we're going to talk about how it ends. And this book has some twists and turns. So if you have not finished it, great book, excellent read, obviously. And so you're going to want to pop off, let's talk about this book because I have to tell you guys, this book had me hooked from the very beginning. It's a mystery thriller, which, by the way, I really appreciated that. This book was thrilling, but not. But yet not scary. Let's talk to. Let's bring her on. Let's talk to Sally. I want to hear. We're going to start off with this question. Did Rose kill Janice? Here she is. Hi, Sally.

Hello.

How are you?

I was just typing to write that. I didn't think of that either, but maybe she was. Maybe she did kill Janet. Now I'm going to say that she definitely did. So thanks for the tip off, guys.

Well, I can't take credit for that one, but you're welcome. We've got some girls that go really deep on book club here and when they get together they have all these ideas and it's just really fun.

So how did you put it past her?

Yes, she was pretty evil.

Hello. Thank you for having me. Hi, Holly's family. Thank you all for joining. I'm very flattered.

Oh, we're so glad that you're here. It's really nice to meet you. What time is it there?

It's lovely to meet you. It's about 11:30 in the morning, so I'm on the coffee.

That's nice. That's really nice. Last month we spoke with Mike Gale and he lives in England and it.

Was 1am when he talked to us. He was a good sport. I'd be fast asleep at that time.

Me too. I gotta say, I don't think I.

Would have done that.

All right, so, so nice to meet you. We really, really enjoyed this book. Thank you for not making it too scary, but also quite suspenseful. Just probably you get this question asked all the time. But tell us, like what inspired you to. To just start writing this particular story?

Yeah, look, I. It's my therapy sixth book. I think I keep losing track and you know, one thing that I love exploring in my books is family dysfunctionality, as it were. My book before the Good Sister was called the Mother In Law and it was about a mother in law who was murdered. And before that I wrote about, you know, next door neighbors. And I've written about mothers and daughters and so I was kind of looking for a familial relationship to write about, but. Disclaimer. I don't have a sister. I have two older brothers and so I always felt like I don't know if I have the authority to write about sisters. It was something I thought about. But I now am the mother of two daughters, so I've had a bit of an opportunity to have a bit of a close view of this relationship. My mum is also one of five sisters, so I've seen a bit of sisterly interaction there. And so I had sisters in the back of my mind, but I just wasn't sure. And there was a moment that actually inspired the book and it was, you know, a couple of years ago because publishing is slow by the time you write it and then it comes out. But I was in my backyard, I was watching my little girls playing and it was one of those rare moments where they were playing really nicely. You know, there was squeals of joy and. And I thought, wow, you know, maybe I can go inside and do something for myself, you know, heaven forbid. And so I turned around to walk inside and the moment I did that, the squeals of joy turned to the, you know, nasty, horrific squeals where someone's been injured, as it always does. And so I went to investigate and I found that my older daughter, who was six at the time, had this ring of teeth marks in her arm and. And my younger daughter who was 2, was standing there and she doesn't have a poker face, right? You know, she's looking kind of guilty. And it was very obvious what had gone on. And so I went to reprimand my younger daughter. And she's 2, right, and she's our baby. And so it was not an angry reprimand, it was kind of, why did you bite your sister? But my older daughter, who was the injured party, stepped in between us, you know, very dramatically and said, don't you yell at my baby sister. And I was so confused because as someone who has two older brothers, I can tell you that there was no greater joy in my childhood than when my brothers got in trouble. In fact, to this day, if Mum tells them off, I'm happy. And yet here is my daughter, teeth marks in her arm, and she doesn't want me to yell at her sister. And I thought, isn't that interesting? And then in the next breath, she said, don't worry, Mummy, I'll get her back later when she least expects it. And I walked away from that. And I thought it was just this little vignette of sisterhood where you can't hurt your sister, but no one else can hurt my sister, but I can. And the loyalty and the love, but also the kind of cunning and. And I walked away and I came into my office and I just wrote Sisters question mark. And I thought there could be a book. And that was the start of it.

That's amazing. I have two sisters, I have an older sister and I have a younger sister who also has special needs. And one of the things that I loved about this book is how Fern was able to live on her own. And my sister, just this year was able to move into a place on her own. And so that was just another, you know, you got me with the library references, but then also with my sister, it was.

It was really special.

So, all right, so you get this idea, you write down sisters with a question mark and then what?

So the other thing, which, as you've already discussed is a big part of this book, is the character of Fearne. And she is a character that's kind of been in my mind for a while and I didn't know how she was going to come out and. Or even, you know, who she was going to be. But I am part of a neurodiverse family. My son is on the spectrum. My daughter has adhd. My husband is not diagnosed, but he identifies as being autistic. And so I've had, in the back of my Mind, I would love to write a on the spectrum character. And yet I did that with a bit of hesitation because I'm not on the spectrum. I'm very careful about who has the right to tell whose stories. And yet then I'm also a mother of a neurodiverse family. And what's really important to me and what I really ultimately wanted to do with this book was to create characters in the world and in my creation, that's in fiction, but I hope there are other people doing it in TV and. And all the other forums, but create characters that exist that my children can read about and they can see themselves not being in books because they're on the spectrum, but in spite of the fact that they're on the spectrum. You know, it wasn't a book about someone coming to terms with the fact that they're on their spectrum or their family understanding it or them fitting in. In fact, Fearne being on the spectrum is the least interesting thing about her. You know, she's this amazing librarian. She was the heroine of this book. She was a wonderful. She was beloved by her community. And how amazing for my kids, but for other kids, for other adults to say, yeah, there's me. That's. You know, some of those thoughts are mine. And I did get my son to read it. And he was chuckling, you know, mostly chuckling at how stupid, neurotypical people are that, you know, with the ridiculous things that we say and, you know, the illogical things that we say. And that was. The other piece, I guess that was important to me is that as neurotypical readers, we weren't laughing at Fearne. In fact, while we were laughing, we were mostly laughing at ourselves. Because, you know, in fact, a lot of the things that, as neurotypical people, we do isn't logical, you know, and it doesn't make sense.

Strange.

If we can laugh about our differences and see each other and see, you know, people that are different. I think that. That we're helping to. To make it a kinder, more empathetic world.

Well, you did such an amazing job with that.

And everybody.

I don't know if you can see the comments, but everybody's commenting about what a beautiful character she was. And she really was a great heroine. I mean, you were truly cheering for her from the. From the first page and, and really just getting so much insight into her character. How did you come up with their names, Rose and Fearne?

Well, Fern came first, and I don't know why. I'm really hard at the why. And Often I find myself sitting, you know, back in the pre Covid days when I was at a writers festival or on a panel and other authors answered these questions with so much, you know, thought and care. And they say. And I always think, oh, I don't know, it just felt right. I really like that name. For some reason, Fern appeared to me when she came. I knew what she looked like, and she had a name, and her name was Fern. From there, I then thought, rose is interesting because, you know, obviously ferns and roses. The rose is the one that people look at and admire and, you know, care for very closely often, whereas ferns can look after themselves a lot more. But then there's these thorns on the roses. And so I kind of tried to get a little bit clever with that piece. Whereas the. Because I like a bit of. That's too much. I'm not super airy fairy with, you know, everything having to have meaning, but I love it if I can do a little bit of something that way. And I loved it.

I loved it. And also there's ferns and roses on the COVID too, which is really.

Yes, I loved how they did that. And on the Australian cover, too, which I don't think I have. I'll never find it now. But they also had ferns and roses, so it was. Yeah, it was lovely.

So when you were writing this story, you've got you. You've got this idea about sisters. You've got this character named Fearne, and, you know, she comes to you. She appears to you kind of know. So do you know, like, did you know how much of the plot did you know before you started your draft?

Yes. Okay. So I'm a planner, and I do plan ahead, and I do it differently. I'm so scatty. I'm such a classic writer in that way. You know, that the writer that's lost her keys and my office is also a mess. I was chuckling at, don't look at this. This is my Spectrum family that do things behind me, like organize my books. I am the chaos. So I plan in a chaotic way. I think that for the Good Sister, I used a spreadsheet, which also feels very unwriterly. But that process of planning is about me making sure there's a story there. You know, I'll just input little scenes that come to my mind. I'll make sure. Because some things I come up with, they're not a full novel. You know, it might be a really interesting short story or it might be an interesting premise, but it doesn't go where I Want it to go. So I kind of think of the planning as almost a really short first draft. It's like, is there a story here? What's going to happen? And so I then take to the page and I start writing it out. And while I have a plan there, the book rarely looks like that original plan because, you know, a spreadsheet is not a full novel. And you don't really know. I really knew Fearne quite quickly. But other characters, like Rose, like Wally, like the mother, took time to know. And by the time I got halfway through, I'd look at something I'd planned and think, no, Wally wouldn't do that. Or, you know, this doesn't work. Or I might think I've written a little scene that I think this could work later on. This would be better than what I planned. So there is some planning. There is a lot of organic stuff that happens. And for me, a lot of drafts, because I get to the end and I think I know what needs to change, and I start again, and then I get to the end again and I think, oh, there's a few things that aren't right, and I start again. So it's probably six, seven, eight drafts before it gets from the, you know, the first to the. To what you guys read.

That's so fascinating to me. I mean, like, I have so many things I want to ask you about what you just said. So, first of all, when you're in this planning stage and you're going, do I have a story here? How often do you say, no, this is. This is not a book? And you put that idea to the side?

Oh, very often. I think nine times out of 10, it's not a full novel for various reasons. Like, one thing is that now this is. Well, that was my sixth novel, but I've since written two more novels. And so now that I'm at, you know, nine, 10th novel, there are things, for example, like I don't want to retell a story that I've already told. You know, and so I think this is an interesting premise. But by in doing that, I would need to include a character with sensory processing disorder. And that feels very close to what I've already done. Or to tell this story, I might need to research a topic that I just don't think that I have the stomach as a mother, for example, to. To go there, or there's various roadblocks. And so for me, yeah, I go through lots of possible stories before I get to one. And, you know, as a writer, you feel that Fire in your belly when you're planning and you think, I just want to start writing. You know, that's the one. And almost all the authors I know, and I know many, as I said, Kelly river is my. One of my dearest friends. We all do it differently. But that is one thing that I've heard consistently across the board is that you can try to love a story and you can work with one, but as soon as you feel that fire in the belly, you know, this is the story. This is the one I'm going to go with.

All right, so now you've got seven, eight, nine drafts. How do you know when the book is finished?

Well, luckily, I now have a publisher to tell me, and almost always when I send it to them, they say, no, it's not finished. And I say, that's a shame. But often I'm grateful for their help because when I. When it gets to the publisher, I'm often sending it and saying, I think this is okay. But there's a couple of things I don't think are working. And a good publisher will. Will not say, here's what you should do. And I think it's important to say that because I often get questions like, what do you do if your editor wants you to do something that you don't want to do? That never happens to me because they don't tell me what to do. What they say is, I didn't believe that Rose would do this. I didn't understand why Wally would do this. And so my job then is to say, okay, she didn't believe that. I need to make that believable. And so you go back and you do some more work on it, and there are times when it gets to the end, and I think, yep, I've nailed this. But those are very rare. Most times I think, I hate this. This is the worst book I've ever written. I. It's never going to get published. And then I send it to my publisher, and they say, good job. You know, this is. This is great. So you get so close to it as the writer that sometimes your perspective is off. But I think if you know that something's not working, you usually write. So it's just.

Do you have a person or a friend, a personal friend that you allow to read your drafts along the way?

I have done well. Kelly is one and a couple of other writer friends. We read for each other. I mostly give her mine, so she'll give me hers because her books are so good. And I just am desperate for an early copy, and I never have a single comment to make because it's always so good. But now I kind of keep it to myself because I have multiple publishers in different countries, I already get a lot of opinions. So once I've done as much with it as I can, I will just send it to them because they'll come back. And if I'm already sending it to someone else before that, it's kind of too many cooks. And really, I guess the experts are my publishers, and it can be embarrassing to send it. And then they, you know, you think, I don't want them to say it's not good and be unhappy with me. But in general, they're pretty nice to me and they, you know, they make their comments kindly. So now I'm on a book a year. I finished the book, I finished my 5 million drafts, and then I send it to them.

I can't believe you're on a book a year. That's insane. Okay, so you wrote a lot about books in this book and a lot about the library. Is the library a special place for you?

Yes. Oh, my gosh. Well, I was never homeless, but I did go to the library every weekend with my mom and my brothers and a similar thing. We would. What I remember is getting this wonderful freedom in the library. You know, as soon as we walked in the door, my brothers and I would run off in a different direction and we would find a book and we would sit in a beanbag and we might stay there for hours. And my mum was a high school teacher, so she was wild about reading and literacy and all of those things. And, you know, I remember just thinking, the amazing thing about the library also was that you were able to take things home with you. You know, when I was a. When I was a child, one of the things I remember, we weren't super poor, but, you know, there were times when money was tight, and I remember going to the shops and Mum saying, you can't have anything. Don't ask for anything. You're not getting anything. But at the library, you could bring home a bag of books and you know, what an amazing resource in the community for everyone. Because that's what it means as a society. We value literacy, so we make books free. And I think to make that available to children is just such a great way to instill the value of reading and books in them at an early age. And that's what I had, and that's what Fern had.

I loved it so much, it kind of made me feel a little guilty. Because I have really fond memories of the library, the public library, and also the school library, and very distinct memories of even the smell of a library book. And I would take my children to the library when they were really little, but I would never remember. As a mom, I would never remember to return the books. So, like, every time we go to the Library, it's like $20 in fees and fines and everything.

And.

And so I. I was just like, you know what? We're just gonna buy the book so we can keep them at the house.

And.

And so we do have lots of books in our house, but my sister is commenting they have a bookmobile that comes around to their neighborhood that her and her kids love. And it's so funny. So many people are commenting about the library and people who worked in the library and somebody who's a retired librarian and the smell of the library.

It's just. And, you know, sorry to interrupt. I think that one. One thing I love about libraries and the libraries have been closed this year in Australia. But prior. And while I wrote the Good Sister, I wrote the Good Sister in my local library because I used to take my computer and go to the library, and that's where I wrote. That was my. My office, as it were. And so a lot of the librarians helped me understand that because they know me, and they know that I sit there and write my books, and. And they would come and tell me about the life of a librarian. But one of the things from being in the library that I realized that I loved is that libraries, at least in Australia, I'm not sure what it's like there are hot right now. You know, I think because of hipsters and music, they've really become a community hub as opposed to just being about books. And there are always students in there. There's those baby reading and rhyme time like you talked about with your little children. There is, you know, toastmasters groups. There's elderly people learning computer skills. It really is just. It's hard to get a desk there sometimes. And I find that so wonderful because it feels like the kind of thing that it could go out of fashion, and at the moment, it doesn't feel like it has. And that warms my heart.

That's really amazing. I think here. I'm not sure. I mean, I honestly haven't been in the library in a really long time. I hope they're like that. I know that they've lost a lot of funding here in our state particularly, which is really sad. But, yeah, I just. I really loved All. All of your book references. And also, like I said earlier, that there was a book club book within your book that was. That was just like. That was so great. Okay, so I want to ask you about what you like to read, because I find that writers are readers. And so one of the things we love from book club is hearing authors recommend some books. And so got a couple of questions for you. So you obviously love plot twists. What is a book that you have read that had the most unbelievable plot twist that you're like, I wish I could read that book again for the first time?

Oh, good question. Oh, one that's got a plot twist. There's a book. There's an American writer who I love who writes thrillers. Her name's Mary Kubiker, and she's written several books, and I love them all. But one of them is called Pretty Baby. I think that was her second book, and I can't really say too much about it. I was in from the start. You know, it didn't need the twist, but the twist that came halfway through was one of those, you know, you have to put down the book and just stare at the wall for a minute and just recalibrate everything that you had thought. So, yes, I think that's probably the first one that I would think of.

Okay. I'm writing it down because I. I don't read a lot of the, like, you know, the genres is kind of called, like, psychological thrillers. I don't read a ton of them because I find them to be a little disappointing sometimes. You know, like, you get to the.

To the. To the.

Where the twist is, and you realize, like, she was drunk the whole time.

And I'm like, exactly.

So I. So I love to ask, like, I. I typically only read those. That genre of books if somebody recommends one to me, because otherwise you just like. Or if there's one that just like, literally everybody has read, then I'll be like, well, okay, I'll give this one a try, but I love it.

I'm gonna read that one. That one is a good one. But I agree with you. And one of the things that was interesting about being kind of shelved in thrillers, as it were, for my books, is that I had never. And it's not up to me, and it's the bookstores. You have to categorize books because that's where people know how to find them. But I don't think of my books as thrillers because I always focus on character first. And thrillers can be quite plot Driven. Whereas for me, I feel like my books are more. What I'm really interested in exploring is characters and families and relationships. And so when I do. I guess you're possibly the same from what you had said. The thrillers that I enjoy, and Pretty Baby is one of them, are the ones that do both character and also plot.

I totally agree. Who's an author that you have read almost all of their books?

Oh, okay. Leanne Moriarty. I love her. She's another Australian writer. And did you reference her in this book? I don't know if I did. If I didn't, that's a huge oversight. How could I not do that?

I thought that you did because I remember thinking, she's listing Australian authors, but I could not find it. I tried to go back and find. I couldn't find it.

So.

But I mean, that doesn't really, really mean anything. I was just, like, looking for it. But. Okay, so you've read all of her books. Did you see her newest show? My husband and I just watched it.

Yes. Nine Perfect Strangers. Yes. Yeah, she's wonderful.

Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, so what is a book that made you fall in love with reading? Like a book that you read early on as a child or a teen?

Oh, okay. There's a few. So my favorite childhood series, the ones that I think probably really made me a reader were the Enid Blyton, Naughtiest Girl in the School Books. There were three of them, and they were chapter books, I think you'd call them. So the not picture books. And I got the first one from my local library and. And read it. And this is something I say to parents who want their children to be readers. So I remember it was that kind of book that I was walking around, you know, at lunchtime at school reading it, and my mum noticed that I was really into this book. And I remember getting home from school and she was a teacher and had a school library, and she got the second one ready for me. And so I always say to parents, if you see your kids reading something, it doesn't matter what it is, you get them. Like, if it's not a series, get them more books like that. Put the books in their hand, make it easy for them to continue being a reader.

I actually watched your Instagram that you did all about getting your kids to read books. It was so great. I highly recommend to everyone watching, you've got to go follow Sally on her Instagram because you did that one post all about how to. How to get your kids to be great readers, which I absolutely loved. And then. And you do the writerly Wednesday for people who are interested in writing. It's just really great. I love it. I have totally lost track of time and we're like almost out of time. But thank you so much. Thank you for writing stories. And again, one of the things that I love about reading is how a.

Book.

Can give you empathy for a situation that maybe you never thought about. And for a character like Fearne to really be able to see that sometimes when you meet someone that you don't necessarily understand that that doesn't mean that they aren't smart or that they, you know, are have problems, that we all have problems. And it just helps you to understand people.

And it was just such a beautiful.

Story and suspenseful and wonderful for October and we loved it and it's just so nice to meet you.

It's so lovely to meet you. Thank you so much for having me. And. And I hope that everyone enjoyed the book.

Okay, really quick though, tell us you have a book coming out and I looked it up here. It doesn't come out till March.

I know, I'm so sorry. I've been getting lots of it. It's called the Younger Wife and it's out in Australia in a couple of weeks. And unfortunately it's not out in the States until. Until March or April, I think. But that's the publisher. It's not me. The book's done. I've written it. Until then.

If we were going to go back and read more of your books, do you have a favorite or do you have one that like, oh, you should read this one.

Probably the Mother in law. I think if you enjoyed the Good Sister, you'll get the same family dynamics. There is a suspenseful mystery element to kind of uncover. And I think that there's something universal about the fraught relationship between mothers in law and daughters in law that's, you know, worth worth exploring.

I can't wait. And the new one coming out, we can pre order it.

What's it called? Yes, it's called the Younger Wife and again, family dysfunctionality you'll find there and a bit of a mystery and that will be out early next year.

We love it. Can't wait. Thank you so much, Sally. It was really nice to meet you.

Thank you. Pleasure. Thanks so much.

That was such a fun interview. I hoped you loved getting to know and hear from Sally as much as I did. What an incredible book. What an incredible author. So much fun. Holly Furtick Book Club. Always a great time. Hey, if you would like to officially join our book club, go to Holly Furtick.com all you have to do is give me your email address. I promise I'm not going to spam you. I promise I'm just going to send you an email and let you know what book we're reading next and when we're going to meet. So head over to hollyfordic.com if you want to follow us and join our book club officially and join us for our live discussions. And as always, if you enjoyed this video, make sure you like it. Leave me a comment, let me know what you've been reading this month, and make sure that you click that subscribe button so that you know every time that we post a video here. I hope you have a great rest of your day.