223: Grief and Loss with David Kessler

You know, when it's a death, people will ask me, how long will I grieve? And I always say, how long are they going to be dead? If they're going to be dead a long time, you're going to grieve a long time. That doesn't mean you'll always grieve with pain. I think one of the goals of grief work is to eventually remember with more love than pain.

Welcome to the Couples Therapist Couch, the podcast for couples therapists, marriage counselors, and.

Relationship coaches to explore the practice of couples therapy.

And now your host, Shane Burkle.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the Couples Therapist Couch. This is Shane Burkle and this is the podcast that's all about the practice of couples therapy. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and my goal is is to bring you the best in the world of couples therapy. And I'm really excited to share with you the interview. Today I was able to catch up with David Kessler, who's one of the world's foremost experts on grief and loss. And he's the author of six books, including his brand new one that you can get now, which is called Finding Meaning, the six Stage of Grief, that has a new workbook that goes with it. You know, he and I talk all about grief and how it impacts relationships, and he's just a really warm, kind person. I was able to see him speak at the Psychotherapy Networker Symposium last year. He's a great speaker and I just really appreciate what he's contributed to the world of therapy. Before we get to the interview, I just really appreciate if really quickly, wherever you listen to the podcast on Apple or Spotify, if you could go and leave a five star rating or a review, I'd really appreciate if you're enjoying the show. I just want to get the word out to a lot of other people who might be able to enjoy the show, and that's a great way to do that so that more people can see that this is something that exists out there. So thank you all so much for your support for doing that. And without further introduction, here is the interview with the David Kessler. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Couple's Therapist Couch. This is Shane Burkle and today I'm speaking with David Kessler, one of the world's foremost experts on grief and loss and author of six books including Finding Meaning, the six Stage of Grief, and a new workbook to go with Finding Meaning. Hey, David, welcome to the show.

Oh, glad to be with you. Thank you for having me, Shane.

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm really excited to talk with you about grief. I think it's something that impacts everyone who's a human being in the. In the world. So. But before we get to that, why don't you tell everyone a little bit more about yourself?

Sure. You know, this isn't.

A career that like any third grader chooses.

Right.

You know, oh, I want to be a death and grief expert when I grow up. I want to help people with breakups, divorce, death. So that wasn't my third great experience.

I thought I was going to be a pilot. So I ended up getting, years later, my private pilot's license, but thought that would be the career. But life changes our plans. So When I was 13, I had a mother who was in the hospital. She was dying. I didn't realize it at that time. The hotel across the street where we were.

Suddenly people started yelling fire. And a fire had broken out. We all evacuated and looked up at the 18th story and sure enough, there was a fire. Fire trucks pulled up, extended their.

Ladders, and shooting began. It turned out to be one of the first mass shootings in the U.S. oh, my gosh. So I had that going on. It went on for 13 hours. Somewhere in there, my father was desperate to get us back to the hospital, which we did. Somewhere in there, my mother and father in the hospital.

Had a monogamy discussion in front of me. A hi, I'm dying, are you being monogamous discussion. Not a good idea for couples to have with a 13 year old or their child present. That screwed me up for a number of years. Wow. And then she died. And, you know, I was lost, I was broken. I thought I was damaged goods forever. And it wasn't till decades later I went to community college and took a class on death and dying and realized there's a language for all of this. There's ways to talk about this. And that was the beginning of my healing, really, and putting me on this trajectory of helping others.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm so sorry about those experiences. But it's interesting that you sort of use that as a way of finding meaning in your life and finding a purpose for yourself in your life.

Yeah. And I always teach people, you know, I think sometimes we want to go right to the finding meaning. And the book and the new workbook is really made up of mostly how to excavate the pain. I think you're, you know, your goal can't be, let me skip this pain and find purpose. You have to excavate the pain, and then underneath, you may find some purpose and meaning.

Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit because I think, you know, a lot of people have heard of grieving or sort of understand the idea of grieving, but I'm wondering if you could take us into a little discussion about, you know, what you see as the process of grieving. How would you describe it?

I think of grief as a change we didn't want.

It's a change we didn't want. The job loss is a change we didn't want. The breakup, the divorce, the betrayal is often a change we didn't want. Obviously, death is a change we didn't want. I also see, you know, people often just think because of the word grief, that it's always about death. And I say it kind of is. A job. Loss is the death of that job in that place with that paycheck. A breakup is the death of that relationship in the romantic form. A divorce is the death of that marriage. So in a way, they are endings and they are deaths, and we have to grieve them all.

And.

And so you were saying before that, you know, because I. Because I think sometimes people experience either a death or a divorce or a job loss, and they sort of tell themselves, well, I just need to be positive. Right. I just need to focus on the next thing. I don't want to. I don't want to think too much about the pain of this situation. But you were kind of saying before that that's an important part of the process.

Yeah, it's interesting. I had the privileged to be a friend, and we wrote a book together, Louise Hay, who's often called the queen of affirmations or positive psychology, and I think she would be the first to tell you this. You can't pour pink paint over things, hoping they're just better. I think when we talk about thinking positively, it's so important as an antidote to our negative thinking. But it can't be denial.

Can'T be denial of reality.

Because the breakup did happen, the divorce did happen, the death did happen. After those things.

Comes our thinking about the situation, our stories. That's where. Are the stories and thinking we have afterwards going to help heal us? Are they going to help punish us? Are they going to call us stupid? Or are they going to help us cope and find comfort? That's why I think, you know, it's important to pay attention to your thinking, but it can't override reality.

So. So part of it is accepting the emotions the sadness, the loss, the hurt that are unavoidable. It's just what that person is feeling. But then there's some. There. There might be some potential in the. The way they're making up meaning about what's happening.

Yeah. Let me give you an example of that. If someone has a horrible breakup or divorce.

I always say pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional. We can't change the pain of that breakup. That change the pain of that betrayal, the pain of the divorce. We can't change that pain. That's the pain. It's inevitable. Suffering is what our mind adds to it. Oh, no. You were my soulmate. My soulmates left me. I always say, your soulmate isn't the one who leaves. Your soulmate is the one who stays.

So don't tell yourself that story that you had one soul mate and, well, they cheated on you and then left and now you're stuck without a soul mate ever, because they were the one. That's the added story. Suffering our mind makes up, that makes it worse. Isn't it bad enough you've got to grieve this person and the betrayal and the pain, but on top of that, you're. You're going to make them the one. Oh, my gosh, don't do that to yourself.

Absolutely. Or even worse, I think, is what we make up about ourself. Right. I. I'm unlovable or I'm not enough.

No wonder they like that. Yeah. Wonder they live.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So I think that's really helpful as far as thinking about breakups and divorce as a grieving process. And if there's somebody who's going through something like that, can you sort of break down, you know, what that could look like as they're going through that grieving process?

Well, you have to allow the feelings. You have to allow the feelings. And, you know, it's a very different story. Whether it's breakups, divorce, relationship versus death, when it's those relationships, grief.

We have to be present for them. But it's interesting.

One of the things that people have told me over the years.

They don't regret the grief, the pain. They regret the time.

They say, you know, it took me three years to get over that person. I wish I could have done it a bit quicker.

And I'll go, well, weren't those your feelings? And they'll often say, yeah, I don't regret the feelings. I regret the lingering.

And I thought, that's an interesting thing. We have to show up for the feelings. But don't Linger, you know, we have to go through the pain.

If you've got a thousand tears to cry, you can't stop at 500, right? But don't stay there a moment longer than you have to. And don't let those beliefs that they were the one. You're unlovable. You know, if you find those old wounds coming up, that's the moment to go back and work on them. You know, grief is an interesting thing. It reveals a lot of our old wounds.

So when they come up, go with them.

And what do you mean by that revealing?

Well, you know, here, look. Here's what happens if, If I'm dealing with loss, and then I get the thought, no wonder everyone leaves me. I'm so unlovable. That's an old wound. Don't go, oh, really? Now my old wounds are going to come up. How screwed up am I? No, don't do that. Instead, go, oh, these old wounds aren't coming up against me, coming up for me. These old wounds are like knocking at my door asking to be healed.

They're asking to be healed. The other interesting thing is the flip side of this. There's a lot of people who are going through breakup, divorce, job loss, things like that. And an old death comes up that still needs that grief attended.

So it's interesting. All these griefs go hand in hand, but they're all, no matter how or when they come up, they are coming up for our healing.

Yeah, I've heard this. I've heard people say this a lot before where, you know, they'll. They'll be going, you know, their partner had an affair and doesn't want to be with them anymore or something like that. And they'll say, well, the last 10 years were just a waste, right? Like I, this whole relationship was just a lie or something like that. How, how would you help someone who has that mindset about their experience in their relationship?

That may be their anger. That's their anger coming up. They get to say stuff. You know, our anger. We get, ah, we get to do that. It was all a waste. Through the.

As that anger dissipates or settles down.

I might introduce the concept that.

You know, I don't think your life is a waste. I don't think your experiences are a waste.

You know, some relationships are here for a day, six months, a year, 10 years, 30 years. Some aren't meant to last for our whole life. And so that relationship was that time.

I get it. You may feel duped, you may feel betrayed, you may feel fooled. I Get all those feelings and it was still 10 years of your life. And I don't think your life is a waste.

So I might say that to them. And we grow. We learn from every experience. The other thing I would say, no one's one thing. You know, a serial killer can help an old lady across the street.

No one's one thing. They're a beach. They betrayed you horribly. It doesn't mean there weren't moments of real love. It doesn't mean all those tender moments weren't true. And I remind people my belief. It's not everyone's belief.

When we betray. That's something about us. It's a character defect. It's an old wound. It's how we were taught.

It is to do with the betrayer. I don't believe in sort of victim blaming the betrayed person. I don't think the betrayal is about that. Now we all have responsibility. I hope both people in the relationship look at it afterwards. How could I show up better? How could I not contribute to the unhealthy things that happen? I mean, we all have responsibilities to look at. But be careful not to blame.

I have a different question. This might be shifting our shifting course a little bit, but I'm thinking about, you know, if as an adult with children, if somebody were to lose a parent, you know, or. Or a family member that died, so they're going through their, their own grieving process, you know, how much of that is healthy to expose the children to, versus how much of that, you know, maybe should be more of a private experience of grief so that like, the children can get some modeling for grieving and what that looks like, but. But they're not feeling overwhelmed by the. That experience.

Yeah, I do, I do a grief educator certificate program for therapists and coaches and peer to peer supporters. And this comes up and really challenges people. And the people it challenges most are parents. As a parent, we want to protect our child from any pain. We want to protect them from the pain. So, you know.

Kids are young. The neighbor dies. Oh, he moved.

The goldfish died. Oh, it swam to the ocean. And then people will say, when should we start teaching children about loss? And I'll say, when it happens. The neighbor dying was the moment. The goldfish was the moment.

Right.

Don't be afraid of those moments. We think we should put off those moments. And yet we would never say, I'm not going to worry about teaching my child how to cross the street until they're older. I mean, we need to teach children when things happen and our children are 100% going to deal with loss in their life. What a great time to start helping them with those muscles.

And believe me, children talk about death.

I used to freak parents out. I'd be sitting in the hospital with people who have like a 10, 11, 12 year old, and they would say to me, our child can't talk about death. They don't understand it. They can't deal with grandma, mommy, daddy, someone sick. And I'll go, I'm not going to tell your child anyone's sick here, but can I just ask them the question that would surprise you? And they'd go, sure. And the kids would be there and I'd go, hey, what's your favorite cremation? And the kids would go, wow, well, you know, I like Darth Vader's cremation in Star Trek. And then another kid would go, yeah, don't forget about the Galaxy movie. That was pretty cool too. And the parents are like, holy cow. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, everything they see in their video games is so much worse than anything they're going to see in the icu. Your kids know about death at a young age. And if you don't tell them, this comes up a lot, like around, especially around a death by suicide, people will go, we're not telling the young kids about it with a death by suicide. And my only response is, oh, I'll be curious to see who will parents go, what? They'll go, so someone's telling them a classmate, a teacher wanted other parents. I guarantee you someone's telling them. And then they're gonna wonder why you didn't.

So that was a big answer to your question.

Well, no, I love it. I love it. It's just the idea that we're bringing a level of acceptance to the reality that death is part of the human experience. And that's okay.

Which they know from every Disney movie.

Yeah, right. Which they already know. Right, right.

Disney movies gotta adapt. If Walt Disney was a big proponent of there must be loss in movies.

Interesting. Yeah. Well, yeah. And if the parents give off signals that it's not okay to talk about, then the kid's just going to feel more uncomfortable about having healthy discussions about it.

Right. So true.

Yeah. You know, so much of this is about sort of accepting the reality of what's happening, Right. It's like, I think a lot of times when we're avoiding the grief, maybe it's sort of pretending like the thing isn't happening or avoiding the feelings that are attached to the thing happening. And so grief is really sort of accepting the reality or the truth of. Of something that we can't control.

Yes. Now, here's one of the problems. We all live in a world that we think our grief is going to be like the TV sitcom. The TV sitcom or the TV show we love on our streaming channels. One episode, there's a sudden death. Next episode, there's the grief. Okay. Third episode, we're done with that.

Right.

And then it comes to our light, and we're surprised at how death looks in real life. Wait, I thought it was like the movies. I love you. Thank you. Goodbye. Death doesn't look like that. The body winding down. It's like a gigantic factory that's bumping and grinding to a halt. In my first book, I wrote a whole chapter in the needs of the dying on what death looks like for people to know. Because we're shocked and traumatized by what it looks like. Not because it's so horrible, but because.

We'Re not like our great grandparents. Death doesn't happen in our home anymore. We don't see often happens in the hospital in the middle of the night. So we don't know.

Then the grief, it lasts so much longer than we think. It wasn't over in two episodes. And acceptance. I got to accept this. You can't accept it in the first month. You probably aren't accepting it in the first three months.

And there's no one acceptance. You know, we talk about acceptance. Like, I give looking for acceptance. Shaya couldn't find it. Turns out it was in the top drawer. I didn't look in the top drawer. It's not like that. There's a little acceptance when you plan the funeral.

There's a little acceptance when you sign the divorce papers. There's a little acceptance when you go to the funeral.

On and on it goes. There's a million acceptances we go through. Mm. There's another layer of acceptance. You decide it's time to begin dating again. There's another acceptance that's like a breakup, a divorce, very different. With a death, it's a very different and situation for folks. So it's interesting. And, you know, I do online groups. We call them tender hearts. And even with death, when we think about accepting and dating again, I have probably six different groups for death of a spouse. Because if your spouse died and you're under 50, that's a very different grief than if your spouse died in your 80.

Oh, interesting. That makes sense.

You know, so there isn't one Size fits all in grief.

So lots of different acceptances over our life.

Yeah. And I'm thinking about the idea that the grieving process could take a lifetime, could take the rest of your life in some way. Well, I was going to say how do. Because earlier you were saying too that some people just linger on the grief. Right. So how do we tell the difference between, you know, I'm lingering on the grief versus this is a healthy, just ongoing process for me.

Great question. Grief should always be changing. No feeling is final, no feeling is forever. If you plateau and just stay and stay in the same place, something's up.

You know, when it's a death, people will ask me, how long will I grieve? And I always say, how long are they going to be dead? If they're going to be dead a long time, you're going to grieve a long time. That doesn't mean you'll always grieve with pain. I think one of the goals of grief work is to eventually remember with more love than pain. But that takes time, that takes work, that takes excavating that pain. But we can do that. Some of us need support, some of us do just fine with it.

You know, there's, I describe in Finding Meaning and in the workbook a thing about practical grievers. Practical grievers, they go to the funeral, they're done, the breakup happens, they're done, the divorce happens, they're done, they move on. A lot of us aren't that way. A lot of us need time to process the feelings.

Do you, do you approach that from a place of non judgment? Just that?

Absolutely.

That's their process and that's different style of grieving.

And it's interesting because practical grievers, we always think they don't have enough feelings. They always think we have way too many.

Right, right. And I'm interested, I'm curious about your, the, the books that you've written in general. You know, if somebody wants a starting point for, you know, understanding your work, you know, where should they start? And I'm definitely interested in hearing about your latest book, Finding Meaning.

Sure. It depends where they're at. So I'll give you the quick lowdown on that.

Yeah.

If a loved one is dying, then it's my first book, the needs of the dying.

If they're dealing with a breakup, divorce, betrayal, pet, loss, death, and they'd like, they're more on the spiritual like sort of the positive psychology you can heal your heart with. Louise Hay. My latest book was Finding Meaning. The Six stage of grief. I always remind people with their stages. They're not linear. There's no one right way to do grief, and it really helps you excavate the pain of a death.

And the new workbook that I just finished, you know, I wanted. I have, like, a long waiting list of people who want to work with me, and I always felt so guilty. So I wanted to do this workbook for it to feel like you're sitting down working with me. So that's the workbook. And I really take a lot of time in the workbook and go through guilt. Oh, my gosh, we have so much guilt and grief. So I wanted to give people really tangible exercises to work through.

That guilt and find ways out of it.

And deal with all those stories we make up in our hand.

Yeah, I want to come back to the guilt. I have some questions about that. But the needs of the dying. Would that. Would that be for the partner of someone who's dying to understand the experience of the person dying, or it's for both?

It's for the person who's dying, and it's for family members. One third psychological, one third spiritual, and one third medical. So it gives you a lot of different aspects there.

Okay, great.

That was my first book, so it's always my favorite. It's the one that Mother Teresa prays God love her.

Yeah. Wow, that's great. Yeah. Yeah, it's. I mean, it's something. I think you sort of alluded to this before. I mean, for a lot of people, certainly in American society, it's something that we just try to avoid thinking about, I think, a lot of the time. And I think that's detrimental to a lot of people and a lot of families. Just sort of. Let's not look too closely at this, you know, and it can lead to a lot of isolation and loneliness. And so I'm just so grateful for you. You know, I know you've been somebody who's really spearheaded this, and I think it just comes from a place of love and compassion for people who are going through those experiences well.

And those who die well, their families grieve well.

Yeah.

Death shapes the grief for the family, and so it's an important part of life. It's not the throwaway chapter. It's the last chapter, and it's an important part of it.

Yeah. Yeah. So I wanted to ask you how. How does the. What's an example of the way the guilt comes into the grieving process?

We often.

Blame ourselves. No one's more of a Victim, blamer than us.

Now, you know, and I want to make sure, as I use that word, victim, people have absolutely been victimized in their life. There's no part of me that's disrespecting when we've actually been victimized. But I'm talking about that victim identity we can have in our mind when we are going, no wonder they left me. No one wants to be with me. I do everything wrong. I'm so stupid. I'm this, I'm that. And we hold the guilt for everything that happened in the whole relationship. We are the reason they're leaving us. Really? How did that happen? We're the reason they betrayed us, really.

So that guilt really can take over.

And in death, it shows up. Oh, but I hadn't asked for the pain medication. Oh, if I had only been in the car with them, they wouldn't have gotten in that accident. I mean, people think so many times they contributed to bad things happening. And look, here's the thing. We live in a world now that says, you want to look younger, here's how you want to look. You know, live forever. Here's how you want to mate. Here, create a mate. I mean, we have every bit of messaging saying, we can do it all, we can have it all, we can create it all. And we don't realize taking responsibility for being the healthiest we can for living as long as we can for putting ourselves out there. Those things are wonderful. Those things are taking responsibility. But that doesn't mean we're to blame for our illnesses. It doesn't mean we're to blame for every part of our breakup and divorce and betrayal. We always have responsibility, but we don't want to take more than is ours.

Yeah, absolutely.

Another question, as you know, you know, there are a lot of people who are relationship therapists or people in relationships who listen to this podcast, and something that I've heard people say before is this idea of, you know, my partner is really struggling. You know, let's say they. They lost their. They lost their father, you know, recently. And the partner is concerned that, you know, I don't think my partner's really going through the grieving process. I think they're avoiding it. I see that they're suffering, but they're not really talking about it or they're not doing anything with it. You know, what's something that a partner could help or what someone. Someone could do to help their partner in a situation like that?

Love them.

Love them. You know, I always say, just love them. Give them Unconditional love. And people go, well, I would, but I need them to go to a grief group. And I'm like, not unconditional. Well, I do love them, but, you know, they won't read a book, okay? They won't go to a therapist. You know, we can't get inside another human being's head and do their grief work for them. People sometimes say to me, I'm getting them your book and I'm going to make sure they read it. And I said, you're going to ruin every bit of my book if you make sure they read it. You can give it, you can leave it around the house, but don't make sure someone reads it. There is nothing more of a turn off than that. So, you know, you can say, honey, I love you. Just know if you ever decide you need extra support.

I know where some resources are. But, honey, you're doing this so well. I gotta tell you, people are shocked. If you tuned into any one of my grief groups. We got 26 of them at this point. If you tuned into any of them, you would see me on most days saying to someone, you're grieving so right. You're doing it so well. And someone will go, wait, what's right? What's grieving well? And I'll say authentically doing it in their own time, in their own way, with their feelings. If they're denying it.

Maybe they need to. Maybe that's their protection mechanism. You know, I always say when any, like I teach sometimes doctors and nurses, whatever they say, someone's dying the wrong way. I always go, don't you worry, you're going to have your own chance to die exactly your way. And it really is the same with grief. If you think someone's grieving wrong, don't you worry about it. You're going to have a chance to do it right someday because it's going to come to you too. Just love your partner. Love them. Even if you think they're grieving wrong. Tell them you're so impressed with how they're being present and showing up now in your mind, maybe you go, oh, they're showing up for their denial, but they're still showing up. Maybe they're showing up for their avoidance, but they're still showing up for it.

That's great. It's interesting, as you were saying that, I was thinking if. If I'm trying not to control my partner's process, it's almost a grieving experience for me to let go of the control of their grieving process.

And what in you, where, where's that control coming from? What's that fear about that you think they're going to do it wrong? And you'll find, and this is the advanced course, you'll find I'm afraid they're doing it wrong. Might impact me or the relationship negatively.

Right.

That's our fear. It turns out it wasn't even about them. It's about, we don't want this to impact our world negatively.

Right.

And if we can become a little more peaceful, they get to do it their way. They get to do it their way. You know, they were taught how to do grief and loss completely different than me.

Yeah.

Do it their way.

Well, in giving them that validation that you're right where you need to be in your process, just would, I would think would put people at ease so that they can continue moving forward in their process. They're not putting pressure and stressing.

And I can tell you I've heard this a million times, which is going to work better.

Shane, I've been watching you.

I'm worried about you. You're avoiding your grief. You're not doing your grief. You need help, Shane. You gotta get some help. Shane. Closes down. On the other hand, if I go, you know, Shane, that's a big loss you just took. That's a huge loss.

I just want you to know I'm just standing by you and I'm so impressed at how you're doing, how you're handling it, how you're being true to. You just want you to know I love you. I got you. And you're doing this perfectly. Right.

In that moment, more times than not, the person will go, you know, I have some doubts about if I'm. And then all of a sudden they open up the very thing you wanted. They open up and start talking.

Yeah. I love that. That makes so much.

You became safe.

Yeah. Yeah. That's great. And who, who is the. The person who's going to benefit from reading, finding meaning.

You know, it has.

A lot to do with excavating the pain. It. It's focused on.

A loved one's death. Old wounds, patterns, guilt. Even if you're dealing with relationship losses, you got guilt, you got some patterns, you got some old wounds. I think it's going to be helpful to everyone. And we've all experienced loss, so I'm really excited about people actually doing the things in it.

Yeah. And it's great that there's the workbook to, to guide them through that as well.

Yeah.

Yeah. Great. And. And Your website is grief.com. is that right?

Grief.com.

That'S a good one.

There's so many free resources on grief.com. you just look under resources. They're there. You can also Instagram. I. I joke about Instagram, Facebook, TikTok. I wanted to be David Kessler, but David Kessler was already taken, so I had to be. I am David Kessler.

Okay.

Trying to be like, I am Spock, but it was the only name I got. So my handles. I am David Kessler on there.

Okay, great, great. I can put the links to those in the show notes so people can find them more easily.

That'd be great.

Yeah. Great. Anything else that you'd like to mention for people to find out about?

I just think it's so. Well, find out about themselves. I'd love for them to find out about themselves.

Yeah.

You know, because it's interesting. The people we're attracted to are the perfect teachers. The horrible things that happen in life.

Are clues to what we're supposed to be doing. Our feelings are vital information.

So I make sure I do everything I can to provide resources to people to learn about that. Besides the website and the free resources, we also have our Tender Hearts group, which is focused on the death of a loved one. And that's the one. We have 26 different groups. Whether a loved one died by suicide or a child or a spouse or a fiance or a parent, parent or people can go there and talk about the faith or afterlife. And I also have that grief educator program. They can find that@griefeducator.com you know, people who want to turn their pain into purpose and begin to help others. We have that there.

Great, great. Well, thank you so much, David. I'm so grateful for you coming on. I really appreciate you. And hopefully we can catch up again at some point in the future.

I would love that. We'll see each other at a conference, I'm sure, or somewhere.

All right, sounds good. Thanks, David.

Thank you.

All right. Thank you so much, David. I'm so grateful for you. Just a great conversation. I learned so much about grief and just appreciate you coming on. And thank you to all you listeners out there. So grateful for all of you. Please, please. If you are enjoying the show, please leave a rating and a review. That really helps the algorithm, see who's interested in it and get it out there to more therapists who might be interested in listening to the show. Also, you could go to couplestherapistcouch.com and check out the website. Check out everything we have going on there. There's some free things for you to take advantage of. And obviously you can check out the Couples Therapist Center Circle if that's something you might be interested in. And you can join the free Couples Therapist Couch Facebook group, which has over 7, 000 therapists at this point, which is an amazing resource where you can ask questions and connect with other therapists. Totally free. So check those out. Go to couplestherapistcouch.com I'm Shane Burkle and this is the Couples Therapist Couch. Thanks everybody. Have a good, a great weekend.