Plastic-Free Shoes Explained: Inside Purified Footwear

We've always said that we didn't want to be known as a sustainable brand. We wanted to be a brand that produced great shoes, and it happened to be the most sustainable shoe you could wear on your foot. But I think, I don't think being sustainable is enough to grow the business. I think customers want more than just, oh great, this shoe is by the Great White. I think they want to feel that they're buying into something more as well.

Hello and welcome to the Conscious Design Podcast. I'm your host, Ian Peterman, and I help turn product ideas into sustainable 7-figure businesses. Join me for another episode where sustainability meets innovation and business savvy. Today, I'm really excited to have Will. He's the CEO and founder at Purified, where they have figured out how to make zero plastic snacks. Welcome to the show.

Hi, thanks for having me on.

Absolutely. Well, plastic-free sneakers is a big, that's a big thing to accomplish. So let's dive back if we can. How did this come about? What got you to decide one day, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tackle this thing and remove plastic from, from sneakers?

Yeah, it was a really long journey. I mean, we launched the brand 18 months ago, but there was probably 4 years of work before then. My background, I was in shoe design, right? Yeah. And I was working more in fast fashion. So very trend-based, a lot of kind of sourcing in Asia. And I was working quite a lot in Sri Lanka, actually, in one factory. And every day on my commute, I would go past An area in Sri Lanka, and it's called Mitotamulla, which when you translate it, it's called Trash Mountain because it's a village, but it was— it's a landfill site that was built onto a village. And the landfill was huge. It was, I think, something like 50 meters tall. So it literally, you drove past it, it looked like a mountain. And it was just post-consumer waste from all over the globe shipped there. And nobody cared. And eventually it got so big it collapsed onto the village, decimating the area really. And I just couldn't help feel responsible and want to do something, you know, design something more impactful, something that has a better, better end of life and just does good in the world. Yeah.

It doesn't add to the trash pile.

Exactly.

Yeah. Awesome. So yeah, I mean, that's seeing And I've, I've been to India. I've, I've seen, seen the piles of trash. They are a— it's crazy because here, at least here in the US, like we're very good at hiding it. We dig a hole and then we fill it, fill it up. It's still a trash mountain, but it's buried somewhat. But what's not like— Yeah.

What shocked me as well, it's not, it wasn't Sri Lankan waste. You know, I would, I would go and see supermarket bags from UK chains. And, you know, there's a responsibility there because these— my country, I live in England, we're shipping waste to countries like Sri Lanka.

Right.

And just saying, here you go, deal with this. You know, it wasn't something I just wanted to be a part of anymore. And I just wanted to build something better and prove that there was a better way of making shoes.

Yeah. Well, I mean, that's a good, that's very motivational when you, when you see something like that and you're right. Like it's, it's, you know, we think about trash and we're like, oh, it's trash from here. And then you go somewhere like that where you realize, oh no, it's not even their own trash. It's actually everybody else's getting shipped there, which is a different, like, we don't think about that typically in, in our countries right now. 'Cause we don't, we don't, we don't import trash. So let's talk about the design. So as you've briefly touched on, and many people, right, shoe waste, like, is part of that fashion, fast fashion. Shoes are still a waste product. They don't just magically disappear yet until you, until yours.

It's a, it's a very complex product. There's A lot of different components, different materials involved. And with that complexity, it makes end of life incredibly challenging. And it's really, you know, when we started, most of the materials I had worked with or experienced working with, they're all synthesized with petroleum. And what that means is, you know, nature can't recognize those elements. So There's never going to be able to send those back to the earth in a healthy way without a lot of processing. Really, it was going back to square one and thinking, well, let's work with only the best natural materials that chemically nature can recognize. When they end up in environments at end of life, they can be broken down and they can even, you know, release micronutrients and help and support plant growth. That was the challenge really. And it was just every day for 4 years, just learning something new about this process, why this material is better than this material, and just finding so much exciting science behind it coming through.

Let's dive into that because I love that you brought up it's a complex, right? Making a shoe, we all, we all don't really think about it. The average person, you're like, oh, you put a shoe on. But there are so many, like if you look at an exploded layer of all the layers that go into the sole, Right. And ignore the top half, just the part your foot stands on. That's not, it's not like 3 layers. It looks like it's like 2 or 3 layers from the outside, but it is, it is not. How? So, right, this is a complex, not everybody realizes it's a complex product.

Someone once told me, I don't know if this is true or not, apparently there are more components in a in a modern-day trainer than the lunar launcher that went to the moon?

That might be a stretch, but it could be close. Maybe more materials.

Gives you an idea of more materials. But you know, each— whether you're talking about the tip of a shoelace, the materials, the strength, the reinforced inside, you know, the footbeds, threads, eyelets, sole materials, midsoles, insoles, the list just goes on and on. And you know, It took 4 years because in every single one of those, traditionally you're using petroleum or plastic, uh, synthesized elements. And we wanted to go back to root one and only work with natural elements.

So thinking about like the process that you went through, right? A lot of, there's a couple of ways to make things more sustainable, obviously material change, but then there's also things, right? Because if you're looking at Being able to take it apart at end of life, less components is better. So I'd love for you to kind of talk about what, how did you go through that decision tree?

Yeah.

Basically of like, here's, here's however many materials that make it up. Do we swap? Do we combine? Do we remove? How are you able to go through that decision and kind of what, I guess, what did you use as like your target to, to help you pick between options?

Essentially, it came down to we wanted to build a circular system. So everything that we put in, we have to know where it's going. So that meant kind of setting a baseline where at end of life, if there's no take-back scheme, you know, this shoe is going to end up in an environment, what happens to it? Can we make sure it, one, does no harm? So checking that it has no toxins involved in its composition, but two, Can it even add value as it breaks down? So can it release micronutrients? Can it help plants grow? So we tested for those and we found firstly, shoes are non-toxic, all within compostability guidelines of what levels need to be to be a non-toxic claim. But then we wanted to, we assessed, you know, do plants respond to these materials? And we found that the plants, we measured it against the standard compost. The compost with our shoes in grew better than just the standard compost. So we could make the claim the shoes are bio-enhancing.

Amazing.

And that really was our baseline.

Yeah.

And that's just the baseline. That's the minimum of what we want to achieve. But, you know, we also have to recognize that through processing, shipping, there's a lot of energy that goes into these materials and into the final good. What we put in. So we want to make sure that at end of life, we can be efficient. And that really comes into the next stage, which is building to disassembly, right? And footwear for this is so challenging, because of all the components, all the complexities involved. My background is I studied shoemaking. So I, I grew up working with kind of artisan shoemaking practices where There were no industrial blues. Everything was stitched together. That's what I wanted to get back to, those artisan processes. We ditched this idea if you can just glue the top half and the bottom half together, we stitch it. So we had to make a very challenging— it took a long time to engineer it, but we found a way to stitch the upper directly to the sole.

Oh, amazing.

When we talk about disassembly as well, the other people don't consider is if the process of disassembly is too complex as well, it's not economically viable to do it. So we needed a scalable way to disassemble it. And we were told, you know, time is a huge factor here, because if it's going to take 20 minutes each shoe, it's just not scalable if you're selling 10,000 pairs and you want all of them for that to happen. We have a way where we can literally, at end of life, we can break this thread that goes all the way around the shoe, and the upper and the sole comes apart in under a minute. I think we timed it at 45 seconds. And all you need, you don't need tooling for it, you need a sharp knife. I mean, ideally, it's a take-back scheme so that we would handle it, but you need a sharp knife and you just break this binding and it comes apart. And then you have a compostable upper. And we have a sole. I mean, All these elements are completely biodegradable, fully natural, but we can recycle them because the chemical complexity is, it's natural. It's not too difficult. They're actually easier to recycle than a lot of synthetics.

Are you able to recapture that material then into your manufacturing process? Like if with the buyback, obviously if it's out in the wild, you can't do anything with it, but if it comes back to you— No, no, no.

Once it's in the soil, it's We want to, it's a case of as we scale and as we grow. At the moment, the resources aren't in place to do it. But eventually, you know, I've already done some work on what we could do with our outsole. And some of the things we've trialed are just incredible. Like we worked with a UK textile supplier who makes textile out of— she grows a textile from wheatgrass roots. And we, we gave her one of our soles to embed the roots in and see what happens, see would it grow, and it literally molded the pattern of the sole perfectly. We're looking at ways we can support her. And, you know, providing our outsole material that you can then grind it up and shoot it back into a new mold. And she can create whatever textiles she would like.

Amazing.

But yeah, it's something We're continually trying to improve.

When you take a minute and you just sit and think about like, what can you do with the material when you get it back? There's always— I feel like every time I've talked to anybody that's even just tried to think about it, they may not have it all set up, but they've actually explored like, what do we do if we get the material, get this product back? What can we do with it? There's always an idea. There's always some use for it in some way. Everything from— I mean, I've talked to people like in Central America where they're using tires that just get burned now. There's a way for people to use them in something. It's always the— it's always like super fancy. It's probably not going to be on the COVID of any magazine, but there's a use for it somewhere. It can be made useful, especially if you really think about it. You can make it efficient.

And I mean, its impact is accounted for in its first use. So you've got a, basically a new material that hasn't had any, you don't really account for the processing that into a rubber tire before. It's a material that's abundant and ready to use. So it's great to like always have those practices in place.

Yeah. I would love to talk a little bit about kind of some of the specific materials. I know there's a lot, obviously a lot of materials that go, go into making the shoe. What is one of your favorite materials that are just unique, or you've found in some way just always caught your attention when you were putting this together? You're like, wow, this is a, this is an interesting material that kind of surprised you in some way.

Well, there's 2 I'd probably shout out. One, one is an American company called Natural Fiber Welding, and they, they produce an alternative to leather. It's called Mirum. It's synthesized and it's entirely natural. It's basically natural latex. And they use minerals, pigments, and other processes, but incredibly low impact. And latex is just an amazing natural resource because it's hand-tapped from rubber trees. It's a process that actually benefits the growth of the tree. So if you're farming it in the right way, which they do, it benefits the entire ecosystem, the extraction of that raw material. And they also, they also fabricated into our bottom of our shoe, the outsole, which it's, it's an incredibly comfortable material. It's durable. We hear a lot about, you know, if you look at any trainer or any shoe, really, it will say, you know, natural, we use natural rubber. But in reality, that's mixed with so much petroleum, the composition of natural, it's normally something like 30%.

So really, it's a bad blend synthetic, really, really, it's a They say natural rubber, but then it's the asterisk is percentage actually like 30 or something. Like it's not actually 100%, 100% natural.

This material is a, it's a, it's not 100% latex. It'll be like 94%, but it's 100% natural, which is incredible. And, and things, it's just, it gives you a much better level of comfort. It's great material. And yeah, really enjoyed working with them and learning about their processes. And, and kind of, we also helped them a lot, kind of be one of the first brands to use it in shoes. And the journey we've had of engineering how we mold it, how we work with it in the factory has been great as well. And then we also work with a canvas supplier, BananaTex. And what they do is they work with Local trade in the Philippines. They basically take banana tree, the stalks off the banana trees, and they process the fibers into a yarn that can be spun into like a canvas. If you think of like a cotton canvas, it's very similar. But it's a tree that it grows so well on its own that it doesn't need a lot of human action. It doesn't need watering, it doesn't need pesticides. And they took it to an area that was decimated by local, I think, logging industry, and they helped reforest an entire area by producing this material.

Amazing.

And yeah, it's just, it's not only is it sustainable, it's just a great material. It feels really premium. And yeah, really happy to have it on our shoes.

Yeah, I would not have, I would not have thought of that. But I've worked, it's so interesting, like plant fibers, What you can do, what you can do with them and how many, right? I mean, I get bamboo, right? Has been known by everybody for long enough. We're like, oh yeah, you can get bamboo and then you can turn that into a fiber and it grows fast. And, you know, there's, there's pluses and minuses to that process too. But now people are realizing, oh yeah, there's banana fibers, there's, there's so many other things that we can use that produce nice materials. Hey, it's your host Ian. I'm really glad you're enjoying this episode. I absolutely love highlighting amazing brands and founders for the awesome things they are doing. I've helped hundreds of entrepreneurs and businesses like yours turn their boldest ideas into powerful, purpose-driven brands. So if you're serious about building a brand people love, like our guests and clients do, and one that you're proud to stand behind, I invite you to dive a bit deeper with our book Conscious Design. Inside, you'll discover the exact framework and steps we use to help entrepreneurs like you turn purpose into a powerful impact-driven brand. Brand that stands out, attracts loyal customers, and drives sustainable growth with social and environmental responsibility woven into its DNA. Grab your copy today. You can find it on our website consciousdesignhouse.com or just find the link below in the show notes. Enjoy the rest of the episode and don't forget to like, subscribe, and share.

We call them next-gen materials and, you know, the world's kind of finding out about all these amazing things we can do with natural fibers. But looking back before plastics existed, you know, this material in particular, this fiber, it was used in shipping rope. Like, that tells you how durable it has to be.

I wonder how close it is to, uh, hemp then, because people are like, people are re-remembering that like all, all the big sailing ships, all the sails and ropes used hemp.

Yeah.

Because it was a strong natural fiber.

It's a case of natural fibers can be, when spun and engineered in the right way, they can, they can perform synthetics. And I think we're getting to a point now where there's, there's almost a meeting point, which is really exciting.

Yeah, that's awesome. And it's, I feel like it's great to, to have those and then be able to, you know, companies like yours actually be able to show, hey, listen, this is, it isn't just, 'cause I feel like there's a lot of people who have gotten okay with some kind of like industrial-ish. They're like, oh yeah, it's super you know, it's hemp, but it's like, or the idea like, oh, it's really rough. Like it's not, you kind of are forced into this rustic feel to use these materials. Yeah. And slowly people are realizing through brands like yours where it's like, oh no, this is, this, it, it's not gonna be rough and coarse and feel like I'm in a farm in the middle of nowhere using this. This is finished. What we think of as consumers is like finished good. Looks good kind of material. And it is, like you said, it's catching up to not only performance-wise, but like, I feel like the psychological part of going, yeah, it actually looks as good. And it, when you stick it on a shelf, it's not gonna be like, oh, that's the, yeah, sustainable but super ugly material. And now it's, it's meeting that cosmetic.

Yeah.

side as well, which I feel is how you get people to switch over more easily is like it doesn't look like—

I think ultimately, people don't want to compromise, you know, when they're looking to buy a shoe that, yeah, they love it to be sustainable. But if you have to compromise on comfort or durability, it's never going to work. So that's what, that's kind of what my job has been. And, you know, proving We can do this and we don't need to compromise on things.

Absolutely. Well, it's— that's a perfect segue because I want to talk about, you know, obviously people compare this shoe to every other shoe. How have people responded? Like when this is a different kind of material, how do people respond when they put this in there and they start to compare with, with a traditional plastic shoe? How was that? Talk about that process and what people have been experiencing.

Yeah, I mean, I think when people try a shoe, I think there is like a natural hesitance when you're talking about, you know, an entirely natural shoe. Well, they, the only thing they can gauge it off is biodegradability. So there is a lot, I do get asked a lot of, won't these just, you know, break down on my foot? So you kind of have to explain to people, like, no, they only break down in natural environments. Like soil, soil, you need a lot of heat and moisture. And you have to kind of get past that. But once people try the shoe on, I think they're amazed. There really is no compromise in terms of the comfort, you know, because we did a lot of work in engineering the sole to, to add value. And, you know, the materials we're working with, they have a really— latex has a really high energy return. So when you're with every step, the way we've engineered it, you're getting that back. We have a comfort system inside the sole that basically it mimics the way energy is transferred in waves. So when you're stepping down, the energy is distributed and it kind of springs back. And it just means you can be on these shoes all day and, you know, you don't feel it afterwards. That's what I've been really proud of is customers can kind of Feel that and they love wearing the shoes.

Yeah, I think that's, that's super important. Like you said, and for me, and I'm curious what your thoughts are. What I've seen is that slowly, like sustainability, yeah, it's a good feature, but it's kind of moved from this primary selling point to where people are beginning to expect it. But I feel like Shoe— there's still some industries, and shoes is one of those where there's just been— nobody has really broken through yet. And I feel like you're, you're definitely one of those that are breaking through and going, no, you can actually have a comfortable shoe. But there's still some of these industries where people are like, I don't know, there's not really any good alternative yet. So they kind of just deal with what's there. How do you feel the market is like? Do you— Do you feel like sustainability is still one of your primary selling points, or are people also just— it's super comfortable? Like, I feel like that, that's comfortable shoes as a whole, whole thing just on its own.

We've always said that, you know, we didn't want to be known as a sustainable brand. We wanted to be a brand that produced great shoes, and it happened to be the most sustainable shoe you could wear on your foot.

Love that.

And I think when I look at the market now, what I'm seeing is it's very kind of functionally driven. I think, you know, you have hiking brands, you have running brands, you have this new barefoot movement that's all about your foot health. And people, I think people buy into like a sense of community more than anything else. So it's working out, you know, what your community, what you want it to look like. And then, you know, the sustainable part as well comes into that, I think, when done in the right way. But I think, I don't think being sustainable is enough to grow the business because I don't think, I think customers want more than just, oh great, this shoe is biodegradable. I think they want to feel that they're buying into something more as well. Right.

Glad to see that that's where you're aiming, 'cause I feel like that is more and more the brands that I've seen that are successful in sustainability. It isn't— it's there and you're really clear. And I love that you guys are like, hey, this is sustainable, it has all these features, but also not just relying on that. 'Cause I've seen a lot of brands kind of disappear that they're only marketing claim basically was sustainability. It wasn't that it was more comfortable. It wasn't that it was super functional. It was just, oh, it's more sustainable, which is good. But I think all the points that you just mentioned, like it's especially, and I feel like shoes, I love you pointed out, it's more, we do categorize based on what it does. Like you said, like hiking brands and running, right? Running shoes versus We do pick, we really pick a lot of our shoes based on function and not just does it look nice. I mean, that's a whole separate category, dress shoes, right? I mean, that's specifically for, but it's really this function-based component.

I think as well, it's how you communicate the sustainability side as well. It's, I've seen a lot of brands and sometimes we've been victim to it as well of becoming almost too preachy, like, shouting about what the problem is with everyone else's shoes and why we're better. But I think there's a lot of fun to be had with it as well, you know, talking about, you know, how the shoes break down and what we can do with them next and going into that side of things more and talking and, you know, going out to some of our amazing suppliers, whether it's the Philippine jungle or wherever, and showing care and attention there as well. I think there's, there's a lot more to be said than just We're— this is the problem and we're better than it because—

Yeah, I like what you said too, because it ties into people don't want to just buy a product. They like to buy something that they— that's meaningful too. Like there's that part. And one of those pieces, I feel like most shoes, they don't tell a good story. There's no story to it. But if you Like what you guys are doing, you're leaning into, oh, well, we're using this material and they've fixed— they undeforested, they reforested this whole area, and now we use that material. Like there's, there's a lot more story to it. And that, I mean, people love stories. Like that's, that's ingrained in us. So when you can tell those stories and it connects to it's more sustainable. And here's all, here's what's happening. Here's how these materials go. And I love what you brought up, that here's what happens after. Like there's, I feel like that taps into some of that creativity and curiosity side of like, nobody else is talking about what happens to their shoes at the end of life, 'cause nobody wants to know. It's not good. Whereas if you're like, oh no, well, this is what we're doing and this is where it can go. Then people can feel like they're part of it rather than being burdened. Like you said, the common way is like, oh, it's really bad, you should recycle because otherwise you're a bad person and this is terrible. That only works for so long. I feel like before people are just like, okay, whatever, the world's burning, cool, we got it. But they don't— it doesn't excite anyone. Whereas like— being part of like, oh, you're in the middle. Like you're not the end. This isn't the end of this. You're just a, you're part of this story. And then you return the material and now we're going to do this with it. And it continues its life doing something else as a very different experience as a person, as a consumer than we're used to.

Some of the best kind of content I've used it and some, I take it to exhibits as well. That's, um, The factory actually, they buried a shoe outside their factory in Portugal. And after 4 months in the summer, so there's no rain, it had literally broken down. And we took it back and we shot it and it just looked incredible. Have this broke, this piece of kind of explains the brand perfectly. Like, here is your shoe, but you know what happens at end of life? It's It's becoming part of nature again.

I love that. That's almost like, it's funny, I was, I was kind of in my head thinking about when you were first starting to talk about materials and making sure it can degrade, right? And some, if you like archaeology, like you'll find like, yeah, it's totally natural, but it's there and it just kind of like, but it's cool. So I love that. That's like, you're, you're able to somewhat do that. I'm like, this is what Yeah, it degrades just like any other old shoe you'd find somewhere else that's old, that's broken down before plastics. Like, that's a very— I can see how that's a really powerful visual for people to see and go, yeah, oh, this is— this looks right. This looks like it's a natural material shoe.

It's how things are supposed to be. Like, nothing's supposed to last for 1,000 years. It should just break down.

Right. I'd love to talk a little bit about where you're selling and how things have grown, just in terms of what countries are interested in buying, where have you been able to distribute to, kind of how's the market responded to you obviously growing, but kind of how could you talk a little bit about any, yeah, any areas that are interesting in that?

It's still early days. I mean, we launched just over 18 months ago now. And we're purely online direct-to-consumer, okay, through our website. But we, you know, we have a good outreach, whether it's in the UK, the US, Europe, we sell to all those territories. And I actually, yeah, we have a good deal of demand in the US as well, actually. But yeah, it's what I find is the customers are very much sustainability focused. But now I think it's people that really want to dive into the details and really want to understand, you know, what benefits are of being zero plastic, but also how we're doing it. And I think the next step in growth is to really understand how can we build a community around this and how can we grow our audience to wider markets, people who just want a great shoe and then Added benefit of sustainability. Like I said, I think that's the, that's the next challenge is how do we, how do we widen our impact?

Amazing. Obviously, I know you're only 18 months old publicly. There's years, years of development behind that. It's the overnight success that took forever. What are you looking at future-wise? Are you— is this something that you've explored the materials and you might expand outside of shoes or Are you really just hyper-focused on these are the shoes, this is what we're doing, and just that, that kind of focus?

I think for now we're gonna stick with shoes because it's, it's what we believe we, our knowledge, we can add value in. We can, we can bring new ideas to the space. And there's lots of new design things I want to explore, whether it's, you know, one of the things that I learned through the process was It's this idea of biomimicry in designs, taking textures, patterns found in nature and embedding them into the designs. And I think there's a lot of functional challenges that can be resolved in footwear that way. So I want to use that as well as the natural material element and go into, you know, new categories of footwear. And also, you know, there's, when I started 4 years ago looking for materials, It was a case of finding materials that were 100% natural and fit the bill and looked right. Now, 4 years later, I go to sustainable material fairs and there's just an abundance of choice. There's so many new materials and so many new ideas, and I'd love to explore those as well. And I think we can go a step even more forward. And then it's also looking at what the industry as a whole needs as well. I think there's a lot of great next-gen materials coming to the space, but the adoption rates within the wider industry are low. And I'd love to find a way we can support that, whether it's working somehow in a co-branded collaboration or a partnership, or even just lending advice to other brands of, you know, bringing more companies into the space. Um, because I think we'd all benefit from the whole movement of being entirely natural, but we're growing. There's lots of different aspects I'd like to look at moving forward.

Yeah, I love that. And I'm glad you, you brought up the materials change. And it's because it's one of the things that I run into working with our clients on the design side, doing product development. There's still such a— it's hard, I think, for a lot of people to realize outside of people like you and I that live and breathe this at this time, like realizing how many new materials come out. And it's been— so I feel like it was pretty stagnant for a long time where there was like some, but now, like you said, there's— in the past few years, it just, I don't know, it seems to have exploded with the number of options, you actually have options. I would say now compared to before where you were like, well, there's one, you got one option, like take it or leave it.

I mean, we launched with just white and black shoes because they were the only colors we could get. But now we can get colors, which is— you would never think when I designed shoes years ago, just working in fast fashion, that I'd be in a place where I could only get white and black as a color. But yeah, we're looking there as well.

Amazing. Well, this has been great chatting with you. I love what you're doing. I'm glad that you have found— you took, you took the years of R&D to find the materials to actually make a plastic-free shoe. So congrats on that. And that's, that alone is an achievement. Before we wrap here, Just wanted to open it up to you for how people can get a hold of you. Anything else you wanted to add? Just, you know, floor is yours to wrap up.

Yeah, I think you can find us on Instagram, Purified Footwear, or just on our website, purified.eco. And yeah, thanks for having me on. Always great to talk about sustainability and design. So yeah.

Amazing. Amazing. And for everyone watching and listening, There'll be links and everything in description, so go ahead and grab those. And Will, this has been, this has been a pleasure. Thanks so much for, for being on the show and sharing what you guys are doing. And that wraps up another episode of the Conscious Design Podcast. If today's episode inspired you to bring your product idea to life and turn it into a sustainable 7-figure business, visit petermanfirm.com or click the link below. Your ideas have the power to change the world, and we're here to help make that happen. Thank you for joining us, and I'll see you on the next episode.