Detangling the Complexities of the Microbiome with Jade Etter, PA C, MSPAS, BS

Jade, welcome to Gut Honest Truth. I'm so excited to chat with you today. I always have loved all your content around gut health as somebody else, obviously, who's specializing in gut health. So welcome.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. This is actually really special because I know we share some students and we are. We are very much in the same space. So I think this is going to be a really exciting conversation.

Yes, absolutely. And I love. I want to get some of your opinions today on IBS versus ibd too, because I don't actually think I've had, like, an depth conversation on my podcast about it quite yet. Besides, obviously, just people are probably sick of hearing me talk about it. So I'm really excited to pick your brain brain today. And I would love to start with, if you could just give our listeners, like, an overview of just generally what maybe good gut health is what it looks like. Because to me, it's still really a big misunderstood topic in terms of people only think directly about gut symptoms as being part of the problem versus what else might be kind of going on full system. And I would love to hear your take.

Yeah, I think that's a great place to start. And you're right, this field, especially of microbiology, is ever evolving, and there's so much that we still do not know. I like to start by saying that I think that gut health, or like the gastrointestinal tract in general, is really what delineates our external environment from the internal. Right? So we have this hollow tube that runs through our body, and we input things from our environment in the GI tract is really responsible for deciding what should be filtered into the internal system to make up who we are and what shouldn't pass through. Right. And so when we have a healthy gut, a healthy gut is able to delineate the difference, Right. Is able to say, this is good. We need this to sustain life, and this is not something that we need. Right? And then that's how we produce a bowel movement. So oftentimes, I think in this space, when we talk about gut health, most times we're talking about symptoms and we're talking about gastrointestinal dysfunction versus, like, what is a healthy gut. But a healthy gut is able to distinguish what should be inside and what shouldn't. And I would say that gut dysfunction is one that has been broken down from, you know, so many different, like nutrition factors and lifestyle factors, which I'm sure we'll talk about today, but breakdown, meaning that we can no longer distinguish what should come in and what shouldn't? Right. So we start having upset stomach and changes in our bowel habits. And now we start getting food, food proteins and endotoxins coming into the system. And now we're getting headaches and hormonal issues and thyroid dysfunction, autoimmunity. Right. So I would say the GI track is really like the gatekeeper of health.

Yeah, I love that. And I do think I, you know, I don't really know that many people like on the podcast that have explained it like that, which I obviously, I obviously love. And I'm sure everyone listening is obviously into the topic of gut health in some realm, are struggling with what they believe is like a gut drive issue. And they've heard of leaky gut. Right. And I act, I would love, we're jumping ahead a little bit. Would love to eventually get your take on people's attachment to the definition of leaky. Would love to talk about that later on. But so I, I love to make it clear to people you don't have to just be struggling with gut health symptoms. Right. The symptomology of it to have a gut imbalance, if you will. You could be struggling with hormone problems, you could be struggling with skin outbreaks. Right. Acne, rashes, eczema, rosace, the list kind of goes on there, as well as mood disorders. Right. We could be having energy deficits, weight gain problems or weight loss problems. There's so many different things as to why we want to check the gut kind of upfront with a lot of people, because I actually just post about this today, but, like, if your gut's not functioning, nothing in the body is going to be functioning the way that it should. Right. So don't think just because you're not having diarrhea or constipation that this podcast episode is not for you. I also would love, because I know that we both come from like a traditional background, kind of shifted more into this more integrative, functional root cause approach. And I would love to kind of get your. Your take a little bit on the difference of like, maybe how you, you used to approach clients. Right. And how you do now or teach practitioners to do so and just that what is an integrative, more root cause approach? Because I think there's a lot of people who still don't really know what we're referring to.

Yeah, I love that. And I would say that there's even some practitioners that are in this space that still cannot define exactly what it means to be in this space, you know, for a little bit of Background, I practiced for several years in conventional gi. That's where all of my expertise has been. And I subspecialized in hepatology. So I have a lot of experience too with the liver. But I was really good at naming, blaming and prescribing. So I knew the constellation of symptoms. If you came to me, I could label those symptoms and I knew exactly which prescription. But what I didn't know was when you came back every three months for your follow up and you were failing on those prescriptions, what do I do now? Right, so. And it actually wasn't, and we can talk about this, but it wasn't until my diagnosis of ulcerative colitis, so inflammatory bowel disease, that I really went into this more integrative root cause medicine approach where I started really going down like the rabbit holes. And after I was able to reach remission naturally from, from inflammatory bowel disease, that's really when I made the transition into this space. But I would say that.

First I want to preface it by saying I think that there's a place for both. I do believe that there is a place for conventional medicine and if our system is really great for acute illnesses, those chronic long standing driven by nutrition and lifestyle and stress, definitely root cause approaches where it's at. And I think the difference is that from root cause standpoint, we're taking bio individuality into account, especially what I do in the gut health space, you know, identifying what imbalances quantitatively exist within someone's microbiome and then utilizing nutrition and lifestyle to optimize those. Right. So that we can actually push the needle towards healing and sustain that long term, right. Not having to, to utilize supplements or prescriptions to maintain health. So to kind of wrap that all up and put a bow on it. I think the difference is just that we're, we're getting to know the person. We're getting to know like what makes you you, right? What, what are the aspects of your childhood? What traumas have you been through? What do you eat? What does your day to day look like? And we start dissecting that to identify maybe what within that is making you sick, right? And then how do we optimize it?

And I do love that you touch on like conventional medicine and traditional care exists for a reason, especially thriving in acute care or if surgery is needed, if identification of something bigger might be going on, even to rule it in or out to work with your more integrative functional practitioners. Because I do think there's still a little bit of a stigma with, with patients coming to practitioners like myself thinking like she's going to hate on everything like medications, all that. And I'm like, no, absolutely. I want you to be working with your GI and your PCP or endocrinologist. They have a purpose. But there's also a purpose to my career. There's also a purpose to when you're not being heard or something's not being seen or those chronic cases of IBS where we're not digging deeper and we can be looking at things like a GI map stool test or a SIBO test that sort of, you got brushed, you know, around a little bit in the conventional space. So I do love that because there's a reason guys, we, if you have a really insightful practitioner, they're going to appreciate conventional medicine. They are. They're not going to just say like, roll their eyes, if you will. So I do love that and I do think I would love to talk because you talked about nutrition, lifestyle and diet. And we could have a whole episode just on, obviously we could have multiple episodes just on that. But you know, I, I still feel, I feel like in the functional space, I still sit like almost in that middle ground of everything. Like I'm never an extremist of any sort within having strong opinions, I guess. But there's still so many people that both practitioners and clients that are so one side or the other in terms of diet, right. It's like all or nothing restrict. I have to identify things to the point of fault where we start to see orthorexia and just disordered eating and thoughts about eating. And then we have people who don't want to touch their diet.

Right.

Like to fix and get to the root cause. So like that's not the problem. It's obviously a parasite or it's obviously this. So I'd love to hear you kind of your thoughts and take on approach, just even just approaching or teaching clinicians to approach nutrition with their clients.

I think we're very much aligned on this. I don't believe in an all or nothing, right. Those who lean heavily into restriction of completely restricting their, their clients or their patients, they're actually missing the root cause, right. So the food, that's when you consume a food and it causes you to have a symptom, that's a signal that something deeper seated is off, that there's some sort of dysfunction that hasn't been managed yet. Right. So if we are just removing foods, let's say whether it be like the biggest ones are going to be like gluten and dairy. Right. And there is a time and a place for removing those from the diet, certainly. But long term removal as a solution for gut dysfunction, you're doing a disservice to the individual. You haven't actually healed the root cause. And as soon as you add that food back in, the dysfunction is going to come right back. Right. So using just food restriction as a way to help manage somebody's symptoms is no different than putting them on a prescription or a supplement. Right. If we are translocating food proteins, it usually means that there's some sort of breakdown in the epithelial lining and there's increased permeability, whether that be coming from lipopolysaccharides, you know, like different overgrowth of inflammatory species, immune dysfunction, whatever that root cause might be. But yeah, you have to go deeper than that. Right. So that's how I feel about restriction. But then the, the person that says, I have all this dysfunction, but I don't want to change my diet. Well, you can't heal in the environment which made you sick. Right. And you can't heal by consuming same foods that made you sick. So there's, there's definitely a place in the middle. And I have clinicians say this to me all the time. You know, how do I help this person? They tell me that they won't stop consuming alcohol or X, Y or Z. Fill in the blank. And I say, well, you can't help them. Yeah, right. You can't make somebody do something that they don't want to do. We can only encourage and come into partnership with our clients, but we can't actually make them change. Right. People have to want to change. So. But I agree, I'm always preaching to clinicians like, hey, you can, you can remove food from somebody's diet, but that should not be the goal long term. That's not really what sustains healing. You're missing the mark.

Yeah. And I think our, you know, newfound social media world really disservices everybody because first of all, you can only have such a small glimpse of what they're talking about, right. In a clip. And then people like stick to that like glue. And they're like, this person said lectins are better. This person says, gluten's bad, stevia is bad. Like I can name anything and find a poster, an article or research to say something's good or bad. Right. Like we could find 12 articles right now that stevia is going to destroy your microbiome or it's actually going to help and fix biofilms and all these different problems. So it's like first of all, trust the, you know, not trust debate who you're going to trust on the social media sphere or even just, it doesn't have to be social media, it could be podcasts, whatever you're listening to, like, what is their intention? What is their background? Because I do think it plays such a role in health of our clients right now and like what we stick to. And people are very convincing and good at their marketing piece of whatever they're selling. So think about what like that person is actually selling in the background. But I do love it and I do love, like there's such a. Sorry to the, to the newbie providers out there. There's, there's that like, subset of clinicians that are so excited to find like the functional medicine piece and the education and learn about GI maps, learn how we can help, help people's gut and nutrition. And there it's like, you know, you see their eyes light up and, and it's wonderful. But they are the people who are like, I have to be able to help this person. And they won't listen. And they, and you're like, you can't force somebody's. Right, you cannot force somebody into something. You can only provide support and education and the clinical tools to like guide them. But they have to want to do the work. So if you are a client patient listening and thinking about it, like I do suggest you decide, you know, is this the right time for me? Like, I have people all the time this time of year being like, I'm ready to do all the changes and I'm like, are you? The holidays are coming up, New Year's is coming up. Like, you have to decide also just situationally what is the right time for you and like what's going to be most successful for you.

Yeah, right, yeah, absolutely. I, I resonate with that so much. And one of the things that I would add too is that there is no food that is inherently bad. It's the industrialization of our food which makes it not compatible with our genet. And I think bio individuality plays a really big role here, which is why when we're in this space of root cause healing, that's why we do these functional medicine tests to really understand your unique composition. Especially when we're talking about the GI map, right? And what works for your friend might not work for you because the composition of your microbiome and the food that is actually fueling those species is going to be different for you than it is for someone else. And that's why it's really important to get hooked up with a clinician who actually understands how to interpret, analyze and draft root cause healing protocols that are unique to you and your microbiome. Not somebody that's throwing you on some shotgun approach of everybody goes on the same restriction and elimination diets and everybody goes on the same supplements. Like that again is going to leave you in the same frustrated place that your conventional practitioner left you. Right. Of being relying on prescriptions or diets. And yeah, it just doesn't move the needle long term for healing.

Yep, I love that. I couldn't agree more. So generally speaking with diet, outside of obviously like work with somebody who's going to individualize things, who's going to use, you know, testing to support what they're doing potentially with you, but are for both IBS and for inflammatory bowel disease, are there some, you know, research back and, or you see obviously clinically supportive nutrition pieces that people might want to consider talking to their practitioners about as like a really good start, Even if it is an elimination diet. Like what's a good place to potentially move the needle of inflammation and imbalance?

Oh, I love that. Well, I would say first and foremost is we know that there is a connection between inflammatory bowel disease and celiac or those who are non celiac gluten sensitive. So you know, getting inflammatory markers, looking at your anti glide and iga, all of those are really important. I would say doing a temporary removal of high immune triggering foods like conventional.

Like conventionally sprayed and processed wheat. Right. So going gluten free temporarily, that would definitely be a recommendation for me. And conventional dairy that's homogenized and ultra pasteurized, I would say that would be in the, in the beginning to allow your immune system settle down. Oils, industrial seed oils have to go in addition to alcohol. And I know like when you start talking about these things, it's like this, the person on the other end that's receiving that is like, oh my gosh, that's really overwhelming. Which is why I do encourage you to, to come into partnership with someone who can actually help you navigate that and guide through, guide you through it. And again, recognizing that that doesn't have to be long term, I'll be the first one to say too that, you know, I carry a diagnosis of ulcerative colitis and I was that person at one point that was removed from all of these things, allowing my immune system to settle in right. Until I could get the nutrition and the lifestyle over gross and the mycotoxins and the heavy metals, all of that under control. I now consume those foods in moderation with no issue. But we're talking about high quality, good sourced foods. And I do believe that a healthy gut is a resilient gut. A gut that is in balance is able to bounce back and be resilient. But yeah, those would be probably the first places I would start. And then being really careful too with oats that are sprayed with glyphosate. We also know that glyphosate. Glyphosate can lead to breakdown of the intestinal lining. Right. Triggering another inflammatory response.

Yeah, I love that. And I do like that you multiple times throughout that spiel, if you will. Talk about temporary, right? Temporary. Because I think so many, both practitioners fail to say the temporary part. And then so many patients or clients here forever. I'm doomed forever. I'm never eating these foods again. I can't imagine it versus like it could be anywhere from like 23 days to six months that somebody's asking you to be gluten free, dairy free, autoimmune, paleo, like whatever it is that you're looking at with the. The intention of an elimination diet should, within the realm of not having celiac is always to put the food back in, right? Is always to actually put it back in. Whether that's to test the food or to put it in. Because now your gut is resilient and healthy and balanced. But remember, like an elimination. We should rename it. It's like the reintroduction diet, right? Like the whole point is put the food back into the body so that you can. We always want to be as inclusive. I always have clients who like, we'll go through protocols and let's say we're working on like H. Pylori first with it, we'll like add some things. But they're like, wait, you don't want me to remove a bunch of foods? And like, first of all, we're not going to know what's working right if I just go take 50 foods away plus put you on a protocol to correct this. So I. People are always very taken aback and when they come to see clinicians at GHT for their care because we're not like, oh yeah, you should just be free of everything. We're like, let's just see how we can like balance and include some stuff while rebalancing. And. And it's always throws people for a loop, I think.

But yeah, I agree with that you don't know what you don't know. Right. And so by removing these foods, you allow the immune system to settle back in and then you can slowly, one variable at a time, reintroduce foods. And then we can actually watch how does our immune system respond? How do we physically feel when we consume this food? What are the different thresholds that maybe work for us that don't work for other people? Again, you have to take like you are a unique being and the way that you respond to food is different than the way that your friends respond to food.

Exactly, exactly. And I'd love to talk. So we know that obviously diet, nutrition should be individualized with, but we know that there's obviously research backed things and very common culprits for people. But let's talk supplements, if you don't mind, because I feel like that, like how many people come to your clinicians and they're already on 20 things or try, you know, just tried stuff and it's being talked about from, you know, influencers on social media and all those things are there spec. And it doesn't have to be name brands, but like specific products. Like for example, obviously like Claustrum's getting a lot of play right now on social media. Probiotics are getting a lot of play. Are there certain, are there certain gut reactions you had to me even mentioning those things? Are there certain things people should be looking at or doing when it comes to supplements? You know, and, and kind of like almost their approach to starting things, trying things. All, all of it. Let's just dive into it.

Yeah, I feel like this is a wall that I kind of run up against every single day. And I'm assuming that you probably do as well, especially with new clinicians that are coming conventional space, they are trained to identify, diagnose and then prescribe. Right. We have prescriptions that help with X, Y and Z conditions. Putting a supplement in place of a prescription is not true root cause healing. That is a band aid approach and you're just swapping one for another. So if you're not identifying the root cause and actively working to help an individual overcome that root cause, the supplement is again just a band aid. And when they come off of the supplement, those symptoms are going to come back. Right. So you're just suppressing the fire. You haven't actually put the fire out. I think that there's a place for supplements, but they should not be the first thing that we are reaching for as clinicians. We need to be actually identifying what is Triggering at the very root of the tree. Right. And then we need to be putting nutrition and lifestyle practices into place that help to overcome that dysfunction. And we utilize supplements to supplement the diet and the lifestyle. Okay. So it's not like this is what's going to heal this person. No, this person doesn't have a supplement deficiency. They weren't born with a supplement deficiency. I see a lot of practitioners over supplementing and I know that you have to see this too. And sometimes it can cause more harm than good. In as I said earlier, I sub specialized in hepatology. I have seen individuals go into acute liver failure from over supplementing. Supplementation. We have to be mindful of this. Yeah. So over supplementing is not the answer. There are still interactions between herbals, even if they're natural, and they can greatly impact the hepatocytes of the liver. So be mindful of that. This is also why. And I don't know if you encourage this, but if there's a lot of things that we're trying to target via testing, breaking our protocols up. Right. And having one specific goal or one target that we're going after at a time so that we're not over supplementing. And also when you bring a ton of supplements on, the compliance of the patient or the client just significantly drops because they're now in complete overwhelm. And you've done the exact opposite of what you should be doing as a clinician because now this person's nervous system is totally in overdrive. Right. Which is just gonna break down the epithelial lining. And it's, it's counterintuitive to what we're trying to do. So anyways, I would say supplements supplement the nutrition and the lifestyle. As far as like, what are my go tos or like, I don't have one.

It's all, it's all individualized.

Yeah. It depends on the individual, what they're struggling with, what their history looks like and what their testing is showing. And I will say this too.

And I might ruffle some feathers here, but probiotics can cause more harm than good. Okay. And that is why we do quantitative analysis of each person's microbiome, even the commensal species. Too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. Right. And that can also shift somebody into an inflammatory state if they have overgrowth of a specific commensal species.

So I'll kind of leave it at that. But you mentioned colostrum. Fantastic. Really like colostrum. There's actually a lot of research to support the use of that with micro inflammation and those with inflammatory bowel disease. Dosage of that really, again, depends on the person, depends on the diagnosis and their symptoms.

Too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

Yeah, I agree with every single thing you just said. And I feel like I, I preach it in every facet of my career. So I, I absolutely agree. Like, I see people all the time, whether I'm working with their PCP or myself. See people's liver enzymes jack up the second that they're on certain products or too much products. Like, people fail to remember, both clinicians and clients, that everything needs to go through the liver, right? And we just abuse the living crap out of the liver and the gut. I am, I couldn't say more times a day, like, more is not always a good thing. Like, less is more. So I am absolutely that, that clinician. I definitely use quite a lot of supplements and products to move needles for certain protocols for people. But, but I had, you know, I do private mentoring too, with clinicians on top of everything. And we've had people recently who are newer and trying to figure it out. And I see it all the time when not to jump all over the place. But I also as a clinician am usually people's like, 4th, 5th, 10th opinion on their journey. I'm not like their first stop. So I see people all the time. And you can tell they're coming from individuals who maybe are newer to working with testing and supplements, or they are that like, like, let's just throw like the kitchen sink at it. And you, they come to you on 20 different products and you have no idea what's working, what's hurting, like, any of it. And the clinician doesn't understand how to break down protocols. Right? They don't know how to address one or two things at a time for a certain timeline and shift into, to other protocols. So there, or on the vice versa side, they do know how to shift, but they think that they need to be doing like, like each part for like 10 weeks at a time. So they're just like obliterating somebody's gut for like the next year. So it is, it's really, really chaotic. So, like, if you're a clinician getting proper training and getting a mentor that really understands these things, like, first and foremost, please do it like, regard, just find somebody that can support you, that can guide you, make sure you're not causing harm. And if you're a practitioner, I agree with Jade, like, first of all, you're finding Somebody who looks like they're throwing generic one size fits all protocols that you, like, run. Get a second opinion. I have so many people who think they're stuck in something because they started it. Like, you're not leave and find somebody else. But it shouldn't be where you're overwhelmed because if you're not, if you're giving something that you're overwhelmed by, you're not going to stick to it, first of all. And if you're not sticking to it.

It'S not going to work. Right.

So, like, a good protocol is one you're going to use. So, gosh, there's. So we could talk about this. We should have a whole other episode.

Yeah.

Protocol creation. Because I didn't talk about this forever. And like, on the flip side, you also see clinic or patients that come in that are so attached to their supplements. So attached. They're sick. They're not doing anything. Right. Like, the person has not even gotten incrementally better. And they're like, I'm taking a laundry list with 20 to 30 products. And the second you're like, we should consider removal of 20 to 30 products, you're like, we should kind of like remove these. They are so attached to the what ifs of if they. This is helping or am I going to get so much sicker? So, like, it is another crutch for a lot of people. And it is part of why people are not healing, in my opinion.

Yeah. And that identification with diagnosis or with symptoms or. Or prescriptions and supplements is a very big red flag for me that this individual has underlying nervous system dysfunction that could be at the root, probably multifactorial. It's not the only reason. But yes, driving dysfunction, increased intestinal permeability, immune system reactivity in the gut. Right. So if you have, as a clinician, you have somebody coming to you that is identifying with their diagnosis or their symptoms or their prescriptions. Huge red flag. Okay. You have to catch that from the very beginning that this individual has been through some sort of trauma. And most times those who are on a healing journey and have been sick for a while all have some sort of nervous system dysfunction or trauma at the root that needs to be addressed.

I literally just posted this yesterday and ruffled feathers. But also people who I loved seeing, like, their growth and healing, that they're like, this post would have really ticked me off like last year. And they're like, but now I see how much nervous system dysregulation was like driving my illness. And it was all about, like, over identifying with your symptoms, your conditions, your diagnoses will only make you more sick.

Sick.

Right. It's only going to make you more sick. Doesn't mean you shouldn't advocate for your health and, like, get support. But that fixation, which we see as clinicians with people, and we've all been there too, majority of clinicians, like, that fixation with I am sick or I have Lyme disease or I have IBD or IBS is only going to keep you in that cycle so much longer versus saying this is something I'm going through or dealing with and managing. It's like a completely different, different ball game, in my opinion.

Yeah. And I say this with so much grace, but if you are the person that did feel triggered when you saw that post, you are the person that post was for.

Yep.

Right. And with so much grace. We as clinicians need to be brave enough to say that to people. Right. Because we're not here. And I, I say this to my clients all the time because not only do I mentor clinicians, I also have private clients. Is I'm not here to be your friend.

Yeah.

I'm not here to be your cheerleader. I'm here to be your coach. You're paying me to help you get the results that you're looking for. Right. Which that means sometimes us having really hard conversations because oftentimes we're blind to the things that we do not want to fix about ourselves. Right. And that's why it's like, find the friend that's willing to tell you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear. Same thing. Find the coach that's not going to be like, okay, well, I don't want to upset you, so we'll just go a different route. Like, no, you won't get that with me.

Yep.

I'm not your person. Same.

I had to do it today to someone and just sort of be like it. I. Pinpointing those triggers and saying, like, this is clear to me what's, you know, I'm seeing. I don't, you know, it's not always what they want to hear, but it's what they might need to hear in that moment, you know, so. No, I absolutely agree. So talking, you know, mental health, nervous system regulation, like, what are. First of all, like, how much do you see stress? We'll just call it stress, for lack of better words. The. The thing no one likes to talk about really. Like, perpetuate people, conditions, symptoms, healing process, and like, what are maybe some tools that people can try to implement, you know, day to day to be helpful.

I, I think in the world that we live in now, where everything is so fast paced and instant gratification and constant dopamine hits, I think everyone struggles to a certain extent with this. This is like, you know, have you ever been anxious and immediately you have stomach pains or you feel like you need to run to the bathroom? Right. I think at some point everyone in their life can identify with that. And so the GI tract has bi directional communication with the brain and a lot in that coming from the vagus nerve, right. Which is part of the nervous system, which fires in that parasympathetic state. Well, a lot of us are not, are not swaying back and forth. This gets really complicated. But we don't move fluidly through these two states. A lot of us are living in this sympathetic overdrive, constantly dysregulated, our blood sugar's out of control, our hormones are all over the place, right. And some of that comes from lifestyle and food as well as just like stress and the way that we live. But yeah, it greatly, greatly impacts your digestive health, right. Which then goes on to impact your mood, the way you sleep, the way you perceive the world, your everything. The vagus nerve comes down and innervates every digestive organ. So it's going to affect motility, the way that your food moves through. So if that process starts to shut down, you're going to start feeling bloated, you're not digesting your food appropriately. Pancreas isn't spitting out enzymes, liver is not kicking out bile. You know, gallbladder doesn't squeeze in response to cholecystokinin. Everything slows down and everything becomes affected. And actually you can see the flip side too, where people tend to be more on the side of diarrhea, where they have kind of overstimulation over dumping. But all that to be said, it greatly impacts. Right? And it drives food sensitivities and every other symptom you can think of. Of.

Yeah. And people hate like, right. Like telling someone they're stressed. They're like, I just want to like backhand you a little bit on the, on this piece. But like you can do such simple starting points like even, right. Just simple breathing techniques around eating can be really helpful in terms of gut health and digestion and, and supporting your absorption or just, you know, you have. We always teach our clinicians like a bajillion different ways that they could be supporting their clients through this. But I always say, like, you have to find what works both for you and your client. So like telling somebody who's high strung that they need to meditate for 30 minutes, they're probably going to be like who what? Like who do you think you are? I'm not going to meditate. I always tell the story. I'm like, I always remember myself very young, being at the Institute for Functional Medicine and they would do that and they would be like, everyone close your eyes. And I'd be like wide eyed, open, staring at the whole room. Like I cannot close my eyes. I'm so uncomfortable. Like stress, this is stressing me out. So like for me do, being able to do, whether it's like eft tapping that no one sees that you're doing or like 470 breathing was always just super helpful. And, and you can especially as a clinician, do it in like a minute, you know, 30 seconds before you even enter your next client's room or virtual room and just calm your body down and your nervous system kind of re regulates. So there's so, so many things that you can do. Even just essential oils, like having them on your desk and breathing them can kind of calm you. So don't think it always has to be this whole thing where you're like journaling and going on 30 minute walks and meditating like that, going to yoga, soul, like soul cycle. It doesn't need to be any of those things. It could be so simple in my opinion.

Yeah, habit stacking is definitely where it's at. Especially when you have individuals, those that are usually already stressed are, are busy, their schedules are packed. And that's part of the problem too. So you know, trying to break apart their schedule and try to find gaps of time for stillness. But habit stacking, like, like frequency music in the background, aromatherapy like you said, you know, a timer on the phone for, for one minute to just remind yourself, okay, hey, I need to just like pause for a moment and breathe. And, and I think mealtime hygiene is really important and it's often overlooked and even down to just like what is your posture when you're sitting at the dinner table to eat? Right. Or how can we stimulate the vagus nerve prior to eating? How can we have vagal stimulation so we can send that signal down to the stomach to actually activate digestion. But yeah, habit stacking, I, that, that would be my recommendation.

Yeah, I love it. So you mentioned earlier, which we, we don't have time to get wildly into this but you were talking, you were like mycotoxins mole like all these things. Can we briefly just talk about, first of all, how our environment like that impacts gut health and how the gut impacts that. Because I think sometimes still when you have. Have clients, more so than obviously training clinicians, you'll be like, oh, we should. Let's say we run a mycotoxin test, right? We're thinking, is there an issue? Or metals in the gut, they don't understand the connection, you know, really of the two, or like, how is that relevant to my diarrhea type of situation? Or healing parasites or whatever it is. Healing parasites. That's not proper wording, but you got the drift. So talk to me a little bit about that. When you are inferring to mental load.

It all impacts the digestive tract. Yeah, mycotoxins very commonly found in food, especially food. That's okay. Let's use, like, most times the clients that come to me, their favorite food, I mean, it's not a food, but coffee, right?

I was like, she's got to be talking about coffee.

Yeah, yeah, here we go, right? The conversation of coffee, Everybody loves it, which is already a stimulant. So if you're struggling with diarrhea, that's something to think about, especially if your nervous system is already in overdrive. But, yeah, due to the way that it's sprayed, the way that it's packaged, there's a lot of mycotoxins in coffee. When you consume coffee, it's coming into direct contact again with the epithelial lining of the digestive tract. As we started this podcast, talking about a healthy GI tract is what delineates internal and external environment. Mycotoxins are really great at localized breakdown. They break down the epithelial lining. As that starts to happen and we start to get those tight junction proteins pulling apart, then what we start to see is translocation. So that means food proteins and bacteria, like endotoxins from bacteria, for example, like gram negative bacteria, produce lipopolysaccharides. All of a sudden, all of that's coming across the gut lining directly into contact with your bloodstream. And then what happens? The immune system mounts a response and systemic inflammation starts to go up. Then we start to see things coming across the blood brain barrier, and we're getting brain fog and we're tired. Right. So I would say the biggest thing is like, heavy metals and mycotoxins are great at inducing increased intestinal permeability. So like leaky gut, which is like, you know, the fancy term that everybody loves, and then driving systemic inflammation. In the body and dysbiosis because when you have that sort of environment, the opportunistic species take advantage of the opportunity and they start to overgrow. Right. So then everything is out of balance. Yeah.

And I do want to just, I'm going to reiterate here because we just had that whole food talk that everything Jay just said doesn't mean coffee is bad. Right. There's, it's all about again almost like we call it coffee hygiene at GHT and it's like finding how can I just improve what I'm putting in or the sourcing be like we have a mold free coffee on our website that you guys can access if you want, but there's just trying different products or knowing what's going into your coffee because most people don't know it's one of the most moldy kind, cross contaminated foods that there is and you can simply just change to an improved quality if you think that it's part of the problem for you.

Right.

It's all about fixing like small things throughout your day that you can improve upon. Quality, quantity, all the things. So yes, I absolutely love that and know that like if you're a practitioner, I always say like obviously when you're starting to learn as a clinician and starting to use these more functional and diagnostic tests so you can, you, you can learn about the gut. But sometimes you have to even go beyond that in terms of like understanding mycotoxins. How are those impacting it like Jay was just talking about, to really be able to move the needle? Not in everyone, because most people you probably don't need to. But like in those really more severe cases, sometimes you do need to get a little bit deeper even beyond that.

Talking about testing. We are big at GHT and obviously I know you are too because you have an entire, you know, training system over there. But test don't guess philosophy. Right. We the I, I do believe like the more you do this in years and experience and expertise, you can do a lot without the cost of testing. Right. Like nine out of ten. That's probably been lowballing. I, I already know what's going to come back on, on the test. But people respond really well also to lab results and having something tangible to work off of. But what is your philosophy around test don't guess.

Yeah.

Especially with the gut.

Absolutely agree. This was actually a conversation I had with my dietitian about a year ago because she said necessary is it for us to continue ordering organic acid testing on our clients. And I Said, yeah, probably nine times out of ten it's not necessary because those who have increased intestinal permeability and gut dysfunction, they show almost similar patterns on organic acid testing due to poor absorption and assimilation. Right. Of nutrients. But I do agree that it helps the client when they can see those results.

Yeah. So with that being said though, I, I definitely agree. Test. Don't guess we are all bio individual. Our microbiomes look different and by having quantitative data we can then identify, you know, what is actually necessary from a supplement standpoint and what can we do from a nutrition and lifestyle. And then utilizing supplements to fill the void or the gap. If you are in a situation where you can get testing for some reason. Right. It's too expensive. It's just not feasible at this time. There are still things that you can focus on that will push the needle. It might not take you 100 of the way, especially if you have pathogens or you have significant inflammatory overgrowth in the gut. Those are, those are times where you need specific targets. You need supplements to target. Right. But focusing on inflammation, focusing on nutrition, focusing on lifestyle, improving your sleep, removing, you know, your exposure to chemicals and supporting your lymphatics is really big as well. And proper nutrition for phase one and phase two detoxification, because as we said, everything filters through the liver.

Yep, exactly. And I do think, you know, to me, if you're one of those patients, which is a lot of who I see but who is doing everything on paper. Right, Right. Like the nutrition's there, the movements there. They're, they're working with a therapist or like all the things are there and you're still not getting all the way 100% there. Absolutely. That's where testing is going to, going to help. Right. Because we're going to be able to identify one to 10 things that like, are just being missed for you and maybe supplementation or medication is what's going to move that needle for you on top of the things you're already doing.

Right, right.

You're already balancing. Um, I will also say patients respond so well to test results like that because. Right. You have to think about. It's not just about, oh, we're trying to sell you a test or do a test or let's spend your money. It. The outcome often is behavior change. Right. And behavior change is so hard to do. So if you don't show me a lab that shows my anti Gliadin's high, my Zonulin's high, whatever it is like, or my yeast is high, I'M having too many processed foods and sugars in my life and I need to like, just get more within a balance. I'm probably not going to do it because you're just telling me it's like my mom telling me to do something. Right. With absolutely no evidence behind it besides the fact that my mom wants me to do something. So when it comes to behavior change, testing can be really powerful, in my opinion.

I would agree. You know, something else that came to my mind too, as you were talking there was for the person that's doing all the things right. You know, therapy, nutrition, lifestyle. I've had many clients come to me doing all the right things. And then I put them on a continuous glucose monitor.

Yeah.

And then we see their blood sugar is an absolute mess. And so I also want to say that you can be eating quote, unquote healthy and your blood sugar is still dysregulated. And that can also be really powerful too. I've even had a client who we. She was managing her stress right. Until we started actually watching her continuous glucose monitor and seeing how she was actually her blood sugar was responding to these events that were happening throughout the day. And that was all she needed to make that, that connection in her mind. And that's when everything changed. So as a clinician, if you are struggling with a client and you're like, I don't know what else to do, maybe you want to consider a continuous glucose monitoring and monitoring what's actually happening. Yep.

I actually recommend that all, all the time. But like yesterday, and I was like, you don't even need to do like give in and have it forever. You could just do a month to see how is food actually working for you and how is it changing when maybe you're on a gut healing protocol. Right. As you better absorb macronutrients that balance blood sugar. How is that shifting for you? Because it is so different. Like you can read the science and hear the things all you want, but that doesn't change what's going to work for your body specifically.

Right.

So I absolutely agree. Agree with that. Are there some, let's say at least three, like major takeaways. A major could be like the most minute thing that they could do that makes a big difference that everyone listening can, can do to start to improve, let's say their gut health balance or resilience, as you like to say.

Oh, I love that. Okay.

So sorry I put you on the.

Spot, but so I only, I only get three.

You can have as many. We got time. Three to 20. Go ahead.

Okay, well, let's. Here, how about this? Number one, set a con. Set a consistent wake time.

Yes.

Because it's going to help with your circadian rhythm. It sets the tone of the day, help to regulate your bowels. So I would say set a consistent wake time. Number two would be remove industrial seed oils from your diet completely. We know that they drive inflammation and autoimmunity.

I'm talking about like vegetable oils, canola oil, sunflower seed oil.

That would be number two. And number three is mealtime hygiene.

Yeah. Yep.

Mealtime hygiene. Slow down, practice the pause. Show gratitude for your food. We should all be thankful for having food, right? So slowing down, enjoying the process, smelling your food, chewing it. It should be the consistency of applesauce before you swallow. All of that will significantly in your posture, you know, like not looking like a hunchback over your food. Just actually enjoy the process of eating. That will make a huge difference. Yeah. Those three things of just like being mindful, slowing down, waking up at the same time, and removing the most inflammatory, provoking industrialized food, and it's not even a food, but from your diet, I think will really push the needle. Yeah.

The problem is these things aren't sexy.

Right.

People don't want to hear that. They're like, I want you to tell me to take colostrum I want. But it's, it is crazy. It's like thinking about how much just even almost like you're speaking hygiene around food, right? Like taking in too much air can cause distension, can cause burping, can cause pain in the stomach and trap gas. Like people just don't realize how much the smallest things really actually impact their day. Like think about when you're eating, even just your thoughts around food. Like, are you already prejudging the food? Even, you know, maybe it wasn't your best food choice. Like those things are going to negatively impact how well you digest that food. Right. It might not be the food itself. It might be that you think, think you're doing a crappy job at eating and you should be ashamed of yourself, which you shouldn't be, and everything around it that goes with food. So it sounds not sexy and like it's not going to make a big difference, but it is the stuff that makes the big difference that then chronically adds up to cause dysbiotic flora and all of these other issues.

Yeah. You cannot out supplement a bad diet and bad lifestyle. So like that's if you're just starting on a gut healing journey. Me Supplements should not be the first thing that you're reaching for unless you've had individualized testing, and it supports that. What you need to be focusing on is what you're taking in macro and micronutrients, the order in which you're eating, your blood sugar, your. The way that you sleep, your stress, all of those things. That's where you really need to start. That's what pushes the needle long term, and that transmits generational. Yeah, right, right. That's what you pass to your children, those lifestyle and those nutrition.

Like that. That is what pushes the needle long term, not only for your health, but for the health of your family and then for your offspring. Right. Especially as a woman, if you haven't had children yet, you predetermine what that looks like for generations to come. So don't overlook the importance of that.

Yep, I absolutely agree on. You know, we're just, we're in sync today. Tell our listeners how can they find you? How can they see what you're up to, maybe work with you, learn from you as a clinician? All the things.

Yeah, I'm very active on Instagram. That is definitely my favorite social platform. My handle is the Gut Health Queen. I post a lot of content on there. And then you can also find me on my website, which is also linked on my Instagram at the Gut Health queen dot org.

Amazing. So if you guys are learning, hoping to learn more about gut health as a whole, learning and understanding the GI map better, like, seek Jade out in her and her program and you won't be disappointed. Thank you so much for. Thank you so much for joining us today. And I'm so excited for people to continue to learn from you.

Yeah, thank you so much.