In this interview, host Boaz Fischer talks with Peter Natterer about the powerful role of the internal stories people tell themselves. They define these narratives as recurring mental scripts (e.g., “I always…”, “I never…”) that shape perception, emotions, and actions. Natterer explains how such stories influence neurochemistry—boosting dopamine when positive and raising cortisol when negative—and how they can cast a person as a hero or a victim. He shares a personal example of moving from a self‑story of “I’m bad at math” to one of competence after discovering programming, illustrating how a story can unlock new capabilities. The conversation then shifts to organizations: low‑expectation or victim stories emerge from personal history or workplace signals, and leaders unintentionally reinforce them through their own narratives and feedback. They discuss how unethical behavior is often rationalized through self‑justifying stories, and how cognitive dissonance between self‑image and external feedback can cause either story revision or ego‑defensive reactions. Natterer emphasizes the need for observation, empathy, and active listening to detect disengagement, and warns of the risks of ignoring these internal narratives. Reframing is presented as a coaching process that requires the employee’s buy‑in rather than imposed directives. The pair explore how to foster a culture that surfaces values, encourages open dialogue, and balances support for individuals with fairness for the team. The key takeaway is that stories are self‑targeting mechanisms that drive dopamine‑cortisol balance, performance, and environment creation, and that we have agency to rewrite them.
Chapters
Hello, welcome to the Australian Institute of Inside Australia. My name is Boaz Fischer and I have with me
Peter Natterer.
Welcome.
Thanks.
Today we're going to be exploring something that's both deeply personal and profoundly impactful, the stories we tell ourselves. These narratives don't just shape how we see our work. They influence our decisions, relationships, and the choices we take. The question is, how do these stories drive our actions for better or for worse? And more importantly, how can we rewrite them to foster trust, better engagement, and better resiliency?
Absolutely.
Peter, again, excellent. You're the best person to talk about this. What do we mean by the stories we tell ourselves? I think we need to frame what that actually means to start off with.
Yeah. So the stories that we tell ourselves are the movie reels that we keep playing over and over again in our lives. And you can kind of identify them by the words, by I never or I always, those kinds of stories where I always do that or I never do that.
Yes.
And they will then create inside of your experience a reality because the unconscious mind doesn't know the difference between a real or an imagined experience. And if you imagine something strongly enough, then it becomes a real experience.
Yep, yep.
We can tell ourselves a story that creates ourselves as the hero or as the victim.
Yes.
And the victim, we will always We try to align our circumstances to fit our story. Very simple.
Yep.
It's interesting also that the internal— the stories that we have have an internal effect on us. For instance, if we tell ourselves positive, uplifting, and empowering stories, our dopamine, which is our feel-good hormone, versus our cortisol, which is our stress hormone, dopamine outweighs cortisol by 4 to 1 if we tell ourselves the right story. Like when you've come out of a really satisfying movie and you go, wow, that was really great. So your dopamine levels are absolutely high. We can choose to do that for ourselves.
Okay. What's the underlying idea behind the stories that we tell ourselves? Why do we tell ourselves these stories?
We tend to have views about ourselves that we would like to have persisted in our lives. And to do that, we give ourselves empowerment, but we also give ourselves excuses. So by saying, well, I never, I was never really good at maths, but you know, so don't expect me to calculate what the sales tax is going to be on this one.
Yes.
Or it's like, you know, I'm always lucky. I always get a car park. Well, you don't always get a car park, but On average, on the output, more likely than not, you're gonna get a counterpart.
Alright, so let's start. So what is the most powerful story you've told yourself and how has it sort of shaped your decision for good or for bad?
So this story has a pre-work history to it. When I was at school, I absolutely disliked mathematics entirely.
Yes.
So the maths Yes. And the moment I would see a math situation, whether it was in my head or otherwise, I would just glaze. Yes. Then at one point I did programming.
Yes.
Computer programming.
Yes.
And all of a sudden, I realized that I wasn't such a slouch at mathematics.
Okay.
Now, all of a sudden, the whole world changed. Now how I approach things is I can, I can pretty much do anything. pretty much in my head without too much of a calculator, figure out certain— not trigonometry, but, you know, basic mathematical problems. Yeah. Which means that now when I sit down and do calculations on sums and this, that, and the other, I'm pretty well already ahead of what's going on. I also have a way of approaching things that's changed everything about how I now approach my work. So spreadsheets, problem solving, the whole works. So It just shows the fan of the spread of spectrum of things that a story will actually affect.
Okay. Excellent. So, let's sort of focus down what we tend to see in an organization, which is basically how do we look at internal narratives when you hear such words as, I'm not valued here, or, they owe me. And how does it get developed within an organization to start with?
There's 2 ways of looking at it. It can be a setting of low expectations internally, which has been shaped by things that may have come out from outside of that particular work environment. Or it could be an actual reflection of what they perceive is going on inside of the organization. And if they say, I don't feel valued, or they don't pay me enough, or Whatever the story might be, then that is actually, that's actually language that is an indicator of what's going on inside of their own story.
Yes, correct. How do organization cultures or leadership shape these narratives within an organization?
Very indeliberately, with no deliberation whatsoever. The experiences that a particular person has inside of an organization are random.
Yeah.
But not. It comes down to how they are continually being related to. So, if you go up to a particular manager who's always supportive, always sees the right, you know, sees the sunny side of the street, You'll find that you approach that manager with a whole different story in mind than if you go to somebody who's constantly ragging on you and giving you, you did this wrong and you made a mistake there and you didn't put a punctuation point there. Different scenario entirely.
Yeah. What are some of the sort of common internal justifications that employees might rationalize to themselves when it comes to doing something that's unethical?
Usually these stories are built up over time.
Yeah. No one wakes up in the morning and says, oh, I've got to do something unethical.
So think of a story, another name for it could be a justification. I'm doing this because of that.
Correct.
They don't pay me enough, so I'm going to take what I want. Then, you know, they did me wrong here, so guess what? I'm going to hit them where it hurts. So those are the kind of negative stories that come out, and they will pop out in the language. We were talking before about the language of betrayal. We betray ourselves to anybody who will listen by the subtle words that we use. And, you know, it could be sarcasm, it could be a joke, which is fine if you do it once or twice, but if it becomes a pattern, then all of a sudden somebody's got to turn around and say, Something going on here.
Yeah. How do sort of dissonance, cognitive dissonance play roles in stories that employees tell themselves? Whether doing something wrong or doing something right?
Yeah. The dissonance is always going to be against the worldview that they hold inside of themselves. So, We tend to be goal-seeking, I guess is the one word. We tend to seek that which we tend to portray. So, if we are now thinking that we are wonderful here, wonderful there, but we're getting feedback from the outside world, from our managers and such, that you're absolutely terrible at this, you did that one wrong, there's a dissonance that goes— that starts off there. That dissonance creates a tension inside of the person and 2 things could happen. Either the story will change and then their performance will lower to the level of the story they tell themselves or their ego kicks in and says, well, I'm not having that. And then you start having problems going forward from there.
Yeah, yeah, no, that's a good point. How do leaders sort of identify when their employees Or an employee is going through some challenges. So, for example, they're going to becoming more disengaged.
Yeah. It's there again. It's a discipline of observation and a discipline of empathy. You're talking about changes. So obviously they know what this person was like at some point in time. And at this point in time, they've now changed their It could also be a manic behavior as well,
where
they're going off on a tangent. So it needs a certain amount of observation and also feeling into what could be happening for this person and then asking the question, you know, what's happening?
Yeah, yeah. And conversely, what are the risks if nothing's done? So if You do see someone or an employee that's going through some challenges and you probably can identify that they've got different stories that they're telling themselves. What happens if it gets ignored?
Interesting point. I think it's a framing that has to happen inside of the person doing the observation. It's so easy to turn around and say, well, I'm not going to mess inside of their personal environment. But if you reframe it and say, how is this affecting the organization? How's that affecting what we're actually trying to achieve here? Is this a hindrance or is this a help or is it neutral? And it's from that standpoint that you then turn around and make a decision. Okay, I'm going to take this course of action.
Yeah. So what can management or leaders do to help employees, you know, With their challenges, with their stories, or—
I think it's important not to impose a new story on a person. If a person is telling themselves a certain story, they've got a good reason for that story.
Correct.
Whether it's comfort, whether it's experience, whether— whatever it
is.
Yeah. It's like, you cannot tell somebody now, you must be happy.
No, exactly. Yes.
It's got to come from inside of themselves. So look, one of the best ways to do that is to kind of take it offline and sit down. Hey, let's have a cup of coffee somewhere outside. Correct. We'll have a chat about it and, well, you know, want to have a chat and then just ask the generalized question. So how are you?
Yes, exactly.
What's happening for you?
Yeah, because I want to dive in a little bit more deeply in this idea of reframing. You know, I think the idea of, let's say, a manager or a line manager or supervisor coming to the employee and saying, I see you've got a problem, we need to change it. It's not as easy.
No, no. I think to a certain extent, there's a certain amount of counseling that's needed inside of that. So, as a manager who's taking responsibility for a staff member who's having a difficult time, it's kind of getting the trust for them to expose what's going on for them.
Correct.
And then gently allowing them to see whatever's happening for them in a different light. So reframing basically means, I mean, the classic is if you've got lemons, make lemonade.
Yes.
But you cannot tell somebody to do that. You must get that Buy-in from them. Oh yeah, maybe I could see it this way.
Yes, correct.
That is a, that's a coaching/coaxing exercise that has to happen.
Yeah, yep. No, no, that's a really good point because there's so many holes that can be dug if it's done incorrectly.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And you could push people further into their—
Yeah, that's what it is. Yeah, you could push them further away and make it worse.
Exactly. Exactly.
So, which leads me to the next question, which is basically, how can an organization foster a culture that encourages open dialogue and then sort of challenges that sort of internal dialogue before it takes root?
It's not something you can do in a team exercise.
No.
It's something where— okay. The story that people tell themselves, the stories that people tell themselves are intrinsically value-based. This is my value.
Correct.
This is my sphere of action. This is how I expect myself to act.
Correct.
That's not something that you can expose in a team environment. You really need somebody to sit down and actually find out what this person values. about themselves, what they don't value about themselves, and then possibly potentially suggest different things as well too.
Yeah. What role does empathy and active listening play in shaping the employee's sort of behavior, their stories, and so forth?
So, oh look, empathy is your radar. Active listening is your sonar.
Okay. Yes.
You really need those 2 skills to be able to get a hand, get some under— because nobody will tell you. You go, what's wrong? Nothing.
Yeah,
yeah. You really need to send out signals And find out what comes back and then interpret those signals.
Is there a way that management executives can be trained with specific programs that can actually engender or help them deal better with the challenges that maybe their employees face?
Yes, and that is to understand their employees a little bit more than just functional units.
Yes.
And I'm not talking about upper management, I'm talking about the team management at the team level, those people that are directly under your care are under your care.
Yes.
And these are— this is your team, and this team is going to either make or break what it is that your unit does.
Yeah.
And it's that kind of responsibility that I think— and you'll get to know them if you're working with people on a day-to-day basis. You'll get to know what floats their boat, what makes them tick, What makes them work better, what makes them work less, and you calibrate what you do according
to that. Is there a way for organizations to address these challenges that employees might have, but also in the same time balance and make it fair for everyone else? Because by, so let's say, focusing on one specific employee and providing them with all the resources to overcome whatever the challenge that they might be going through, maybe in the detriment of his or her colleagues. Is there a way that can be done?
So, there's 2 sides to this. You can actually— there are actions that you can take that are appropriate inside of a work context. So, for instance, if somebody's having a hard time, Case comes to mind, somebody's child is sick.
Yes.
Yes, you can work from home for 2 days or whatever the case may be. That is definitely inside of the frame of ability.
Yes.
I mean, the spectrum outside of that is so wide, I won't even go into that. The second thing is how do you make it fair? And that is to make sure that everybody else understands should they be in the same boat, they would be afforded Yeah, correct. The same offer.
Correct. Yeah, correct.
So, you know, if somebody says, well, you know, so-and-so is off because their child is sick and they're the only parent, well, I guess that would also happen to me if my spouse was sick and we had nobody else at home.
Correct. I think the important thing is also for his or her colleagues is to actually understand what the situation is going without getting too personal.
Correct.
Yeah, so they understand and they say, okay, this This is fair.
Okay.
Yeah. Okay. So let's conclude it. What is the key takeaway from the stories we tell ourselves?
The stories we tell ourselves shape where we go. It becomes our targeting mechanism. It becomes that which we strive towards, that we measure ourselves against. And we have control over those stories. We like stories that we like, and those become self-replicating. But we also have the ability to change those stories and decide we're going to tell this story now.
Yes.
The better the story, the more that we, that we create our sense of value, that we create a sense of action, the higher our internal rewards, the dopamine versus cortisol balance happens, the more we then tend to seek out those kind of environments and also create those environments.
Yeah. So with this story being told, Thanks, Peter, much appreciated. And thanks for watching it, and I'm glad you're part of the Giddup. Thank you.
