How to trust yourself to find the right deals and people

Welcome, ladies, to The Real Estate Investor Show, providing inspiration, strategies, and insight to empower women investors to live balanced and financially free lives. Now, here are your co-hosts, Liz and Andresa Guidelli.

So, in today's episode, ladies, we have Deborah Smith. She is a co-founder an investment banking firm, and she talks so much about her path of 25 years of building and maintaining a business in the real estate space. Something I think you're gonna get a lot from with our interview with her is her way of being and her thinking when it comes to finding deals and opportunities that most people are not finding and how she does that, what she looks for, her own kind of process, if you will, so we could do that more in our own businesses.

Andresa, she grew up in a dairy farm, and she already went through more than 100 billion transactions. So picking up somebody's brain, let's talk about that. It's so important, right, to know how do they think, how do they make decisions with confidence. And she always says over and over again, successful people will be successful no matter what. It's such a great way of being while living life and thriving. Would love for you guys to listen to this episode and get to know Deborah.

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Welcome back, ladies.

This is Liz and this is Andresa.

Welcome back to The Real Estate Investor Show, where our mission is to empower women to live a financially free and balanced life on their own terms, right, Andresa? Whatever that looks like to them. Deborah, thank you so much for being on our show today. Excited to jump into your story and what a lot of great things that you got going on in terms of investment banking, what you founded and all that good stuff. So thank you for being here today.

Thanks. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Great. Great. So we always like to get connected to our audience, share something, some tip, whether it's self-care, whether it's business, and whether, or whether it's just, you know, real estate investing obviously is our core. So we'd like to get connected to all of you and share something. So Andresa, it's my turn here.

Yeah.

So, you know, what's coming up for me in terms of life and then the lesson to learn from it is I was talking to a friend the other day. And she's getting her, she's doing her dissertation. So she's got her, you know, it's a, it's a big deal, right? I've never done a dissertation, but it's an enormous project, right? It's about managing projects. And she was just like, she's a school teacher, so she's got the summer off and she was sharing that this is the time to work on her dissertation. She goes, here I am, 2 weeks from school. I've done nothing.

Oh.

And I was like, whoa, okay. How, what's coming up for you? And we go deep. This is a friend that I can kind of go deep with and she can go deep with me. So we don't just stay superficial. I said, what? Okay, so what's, what's happening? You know, what's coming up for you? And she goes, you know what? I really got the lesson and then I got the gift. And then she's giving me this whole thing. I'm like, hold on, hold on, hold on. We gotta break this down. I'm like, this is good stuff. Maybe I'll share it on a podcast episode.

Skip that. Skip that story. Let's go to that, right?

Yeah. And she, so she basically said to me, she's like, you know, I, I hear I'm feeling this guilt. I'm not working on my dissertation.

Mm-hmm.

And though I said, listen, let me give my space to just kind of work on some creative projects. Have time with my husband. So she chose, even though she felt really guilty this summer, not to work on her dissertation, but to really lean into having time off. 'Cause she worked so hard during the year. I said, that's, she's like, that's the lesson for me. And she's like, and the gift, the gift is that I'm able to have these deposits with my family, my husband, and now I'm going full steam ahead. 'Cause September now I gotta like, kind of, Really make it happen. Now it's like double the work. However, I'm gonna be ready to go because I'm so full of this like really special time that I've had with my husband and my cats. I adopted a cat. She told me about that and how much she plays with the cat. It is what I wanted to share here was that it was powerful to hear her breakdown what happened, the lesson, more importantly, the gift that she's getting from it. And she's so peaceful with this. She wasn't like judging herself. She wasn't like, I should have done this. I should have done that. She cares the gift. And I'm like, Wouldn't it be nice when things happen, we get the lesson, and so many of us know the lesson because we're, you're listening to a podcast, you're that type of person, but then to take one step further, what's the gift in all of this? So if we could start to use that in our daily life, right? That kind of process. I think it would set us up for success and not beat ourselves up for things or projects we're not doing. So that's the quick story I have for you.

Yeah, it's funny because I think that there's not a single recipe that fits all, right? My productivity is different than Liz's productivity, and our schedules are different, and how our brains work is different. I think that at the end of the day, what works for one woman, it might be different than for others, and how we navigate to get to the end line no matter what. That's what the goal is, right? As, as we progress and we create, the biggest thing that we say is that We gotta have the choice to do that. And that's why financial literacy and financial access to women, it's so important because then we have the choice to make those calls that fit our family and our own goals. So kudos to her.

Yeah, I was really happy to hear it. I was like, that's a good lesson. I'm gonna have to share on an episode. So with further ado, Deborah, thanks again for being on our show. And we always kind of kick things off with what inspired you, you know, what inspired the women we interviewed to get involved with what they're doing in investing or something that relates to business or self-care. For you in particular, you know, you co-founded, you know, the only female-founded and operated investment bank. So I have to ask the question, what inspired you to, to do that?

Yeah, it just picking up on something that Andresa said about making your own path and doing things your own way. And you know, as I've gotten more senior in banking, I've come to appreciate that my way was not a traditional way and it was not the way things are supposed to go. And, you know, a lot of people in my profession come from a finance background and they always wanted to be a banker and have this history. And I don't have any of those things. I'm not actually a long-term planner at all, but I, because I tend to think that if you long-term plan, you miss all the amazing opportunities. That come along the way. And it's a little bit of your teacher's story that if I, you know, if I focus on where I'm trying to run it, cause I think that's my path, I miss the roses along the path, along the way I'm walking. And one of those things is going to have an opportunity that's going to change my life. And I want to make sure that I can see it and spot it and take advantage of it. And I've pretty much dictated my entire life that same way, actually. So with investment banking, There was no grand plan at all. I was an attorney by background and I was very fortunate to land a position with Morgan Stanley in Australia, which is where I'm from. And my other choices were all to go and be a tax attorney because that's what I wanted to be. And then I fell into this job of banking and, you know, on my first day, you know, the person I was recruiting with was one of those people who wanted to be a banker. That was their path. And I was thinking, I hope I don't get fired when they realize I don't know what I'm doing. And then here we are 25 years later, I now have my own firm. And so, you know, the path kind of evolved for me, but there was no, I want to be a banker and this is the rest of my life. It was, this is, I'm enjoying doing it. I'll keep doing it and setting shorter term objectives as if I'm going to do this, I want to do it the best I can. And then when you get to that goal, you set another goal. I want to do the best I can. And being able to pivot and take advantage of things as they've come along. And that's pretty much what I've done. And, you know, even with starting the Suncap Group, we started in '09 and it was a similar concept. There was no grand plan to start an investment bank. There was a concept that, you know, we had come off working at CB Global Investors running their M&A business and the market was kind of in the toilet. And I was like, well, what do we want to do? And, you know, we got a call from an attorney friend said, you know, this company could really use your advice. I'm like, okay. So, you know, you give some advice and then it's okay. Well, how do you get paid? Well, now I need a company, then I need a bank account. Now I need a company name. Now I need an office. And the next thing you know, we have a sign over the door and here we are 13 years later and we're still going. And now I'm constantly setting new objectives and new ways to grow the business. But with no, you know, if you had asked me 13 years ago, if I'd be sitting here today, the answer would probably be no. But it's, it's a continual evolution. And so, you know, coming back, it's the grand plan. It's you do things your own way, but what it comes down to is having the confidence to do it. So similar to your teaching story, have the confidence that you can— what's really underlying her story is that she can have the time with her family because she has the confidence that she will figure it out and get done what she needs to get done on the timeline. And that's really what underlies it. And so I try and take some of that messaging and keep that in mind. With whatever I'm doing and just decide that I don't know what I'm going to be doing, you know, 5 years from now, but whatever I do, I know I'm going to do it well and I'm going to do it the best I can.

It is refreshing to hear that, Deborah, because what we hear a lot, I think there's a pressure, right? And I heard this another day and it started making more sense because I heard the following, that vision books, strategic books, behavior books, they were all written by usually white male, not for women. And we have been put into this box and forced to create a vision and to plan long term and then to focus on that. So it's refreshing to hear from somebody as successful as you, and you have been involved in $100 billion with BIA, ladies. 100 billion of mergers, acquisitions, restructuring transactions, all that you have seen it there led to you to say what you're saying to me right now. Dissect to me, how can women meet in the middle? Because they are asking themselves right now, now I'm confused. Should I forget my vision and live in the now? Or how can we find a middle ground? So based on what you have seen, the skill set that you've gained throughout all those business experience, what would you say to those women?

Yeah, I mean, I don't have any issues with business plan. In fact, we have a consulting practice that does that, business planning, strategic objectives, and, and I think that's really important for people that require that kind of structure. And so if you're a person that thinks better or works better when you have it written down and you have your list, And you take comfort in being able to pencil things out. I think that is great. And we advise clients all the time on it. What I'm just saying is, is that for the women that are out there that think, I can't do that, that's not the way my brain operates. It's okay. Because guess what? My brain operates like that too. And, and I don't spend a whole lot of time saying, well, I need to conform to doing it that way because that way does not work for me. You know, I tend to be taking advantage of opportunities. Some people don't function like that. Maybe they're not good at seeing them when they're there. And I think for me, I've just made a career out of seeing the opportunity and taking advantage of it and passing on the ones that don't work. And so that strategy has just evolved and worked for me. It doesn't have to work for everybody, but for the women who want an alternative and they think, you know, I don't work like that, it's okay. Because guess what? I'm with you. I'm right there with you.

Deborah, give us an example of that early in your career and your trajectory of seeing a deal or an opportunity that others didn't see as that, right? And that you kind of leaned into and said, you know, this is something. So walk us through what that was, your approach. And that would be really helpful because I think that happens all the time for women right now looking for deals, looking for opportunities in a very hot market. And we're all, they're all looking in the same spots. And that's a problem. So would love to hear an example from your own kind of, you know, your own life with that.

Yeah, I would say that my view on taking advantage of opportunity is I am very well read, is that I read an enormous amount of information and I process enormous amount of information. And so when you see enough breadcrumbs across a multitude of sources, you get to piece together your own view. And when you've been doing what I've been doing for so long, You really are good at putting together breadcrumbs. And so, you know, kind of going into the downturn and going into COVID, I had written a bunch of pieces about the growth of industries like cold storage, the growth of, you know, we had spent some time looking at coworking and sharing office spaces and even retail real estate. And people weren't focused on those things, but for us, we were saying, well, look, here's a second, there's migration of where people are moving. Throughout the US. And when people move, that changes the entire real estate markets. So what do we think that means? And then we go and look for the opportunities that fit where we think change is going to occur. But that's on the back of, you know, doing a lot of research, reading, being an avid reader every day and multitude of sources. I tend to read things that often I don't agree with or sources I don't agree with. And because I, I don't need my own echo chamber, I'm looking for something that thinks different than me, has a different view than me, because then I get to piece it all together. So hang on a second, take some nuggets from there, some nuggets from there, and throw it all in the mixing bowl. And where does that go? So another example is right now, you know, environmental sustainability, social governance, ESG, has become a very, very big, important thing in our industry, in the real estate space. And seeing that coming about and seeing where that's going, You know, we got onto doing advisory work in that, you know, well over a couple of years ago thinking, well, the industry's moving in this direction. We should focus on it and have a business segment that focuses on it. But again, it's because I've done $100 billion deals and, and I've been in this space and I constantly read and read and read. And I guess it was just an intellectual curiosity that ends up being the backbone for my exploration of wanting to learn. About the next thing. And you know, today senior housing is a big thing for us. We think that industry is getting redefined. I heard someone mention active adult living a couple of years ago. I was like, well, here a second, what is that? Tell me more about that. And then I started asking more people. I started doing some research and now we've done quite a bit of work in that space, but it always comes down to, again, an opportunity's kind of peeked its head. I was like, well, here a second, let's just pause on that for a minute. What do you mean by that? And I tend to think you can learn something new from every person, no matter who you meet, doesn't have to be related. They've got something that I don't know, and I'd love to learn what that is. So again, it's just the underlying intellectual curiosity that whoever I meet in the path, whether I'm walking to the store, whether I'm in an Uber, or whether I'm at the supermarket, everyone has a little nugget because they're super good at something. And I, I'm just curious as to what that is and how I can learn from it.

I love that, that, because something happened this past weekend. So I went to Liz's house and we did a lemonade stand with the kiddos. But here's what happened on the way. My GPS, for some reason, took me in the back road. I was like, all right, I guess this is how we're going this time.

Right?

And I always look at that and I don't get pissed off. I say, well, the universe wants to show me something here that I probably wouldn't see before. So I'm just curious. And I told Liz this, I passed this beautiful building, brand new construction, huge. And at the bottom was senior living. I was like, what are you talking? And then I even mentioned to my mom, I was like, mom, I think I'm just going to go there. I say that I'm going to be looking for a place for you.

She's like, what?

I was like, mom, you want to check this out because They have everything there. We are talking like White Glove. The bottom line is that I went to Liz's house and I said, who do we know about senior living that we can talk more about it? Because as, as the market shifts, as, as you were saying, we're not talking about seniors. The image that I look at my grandmother years ago at 60 years old is not my mother right now. My mom just came out from running her bike. So it's active seniors that we are talking about. So can we dissect this for a minute? Where do you see the opportunity and why in this specific senior living niche?

So senior living historically has been defined by folks that have some kind of limitations. So they either need meal plans, they need health services, or they need something to operate and to function. And so it's always defined in terms of You know, that aspect. So even most of the living facilities available tend to have like cafeterias or meal plans or nursing care, but there is a growing segment of the population that is getting older that just don't want to own their own home, but they're super active. They go hiking, they go biking, they go to wine tours. They do all of these things. And the product available for that segment is not huge. It's a market that's continuing to evolve and that's why it's active adults. So it's really the folks that the choice is not which home care you need. It's do I wanna own an own home, my own home now and deal with the maintenance and the cleaning and the roof that's leaking? Or do I wanna get out of that and live in an apartment that is like my home away from home that gives me a new community that's close to my children? And that industry is really evolving right now. And folks trying to figure out how it works. Is it more like an apartment or it's more like a true old assisted independent living facility and trying to get that mix right? Because, you know, the seniors from 55 to 85 are not homogenous, right? So how do you serve that market and how do you narrow it down so that you can pick up and be the most attractive property for them? And I think where the industry's got some real pickup is that the multifamily space has really evolved similarly over the past 15 years. And I remember we were coming out looking at redefinitions of the space, you know, 15 years ago, people thought we were crazy, but the concept of smaller apartments, lots of amenities, which is different than bigger apartments with a doorman and few amenities, but with the millennial generation being much more socially interactive and convenient and wanting a different kind of living experience, the multifamily space has evolved. And now the senior space, I think, is catching up. It's a little bit of that concept. So there's a lot of piggybacking from saying, well, let's go with this highly amenitized product that the millennials like. Let's see if we can take that as a concept and evolve it and change it and adapt it to the senior living space. It's really cool. There's lots and lots going on. Lots of people are trying to figure out how to play it.

Yeah. And it makes me think of women in our community that are, you know, passive investors, active investors, and they're maybe looking to diversify whether they passively wanna invest in, in this particular niche or they're doing it with a team kind of like where, you know, they're on the multifamily space and now they're getting into, to this space. I'm curious, do you see, I mean, you know, what I love about real estate is that you could get into a single family home or you can go out and buy, you know, a 500 to 1,000 unit complex, right? I'm sure it's similar. Is, is there a way for the women listening to participate in this growing market? Because sometimes they might be listening and say, wow, I'm not, that seems like a big thing, right? It's an enormous business. It's a, you know, the amount of properties you need to really play. Yeah. In this niche, is there a way for them to get like their foot in the door? Is there communities that are, I would imagine are smaller than larger or, or they tend to be all large? I, it's a niche that I, I don't know much about. I'm thinking about the women listening, right? And they're wondering, how can I get in maybe? As a smaller investor, right? I don't have a fund, but I, I want to get involved in this particular niche as it, as the opportunity.

Yeah, it's a good question. So we as a firm operate in the big institutional space. So you're 500 to 1,000 unit properties exactly as you just laid out. But there are opportunities that are smaller funds that are for accredited investors through the retail channel that they can invest in. And if anyone wants to reach out, I'm happy to point them in some direction there. As to how, how to go about it. And so there is the mix there. The rules and the regulatory rules tend to be different, but our space has always just been the larger properties, you know, and dealing with the much, much bigger institutions because the retail network does operate very differently than the institutional market. But there are definitely fund offerings and channels that they can go through if they want to participate in a fund offering. Great.

Deborah, one thing is that When women— it all ties up to women trust themselves to the right deal. How do you know that that is a right deal for you? What are your criteria?

Yeah, very good question. So, and we go through this every day, just even our client selection. It's like, well, how do you pick this client over that client? And how do you know? You know, because we're a women-owned firm and we're a small firm, so I can't afford to get it wrong when we back clients, right? So I think at this point, you know, track record is always important. What companies, what a management team has always done to really look at that, what they've done in the past, whether they've already worked with the investor community, who their team is, how long they've been doing it, and whether they have the financial wherewithal themselves to be able to execute on what they're looking to do. And for me, you know, I tend to be a bit of a gut feeling person. You know, I can spend some time with the management team and kind of come up with a view of what I think. And then I spend the rest of the time trying to prove that out, whether I'm right or not. But it's, you know, when you deal, for us, we deal with over 1,000 owner operators of real estate. And so when you deal with that many people, you start to get a really good sense of who's got the goods and who doesn't. But again, it's those kinds of buckets that we would look at. And so, well, where do they sit on each one of those buckets?

That makes a lot of sense. And you've navigated just in your own world, right? You've navigated starting growing this venture. And, and on so many of the women listening are at the point where they have a number of properties or they have a number of deals and now they have a business, right? It's not just an investment or a side thing, right? They're maybe leaving their W-2 and really going all in on their venture, right? And so as you navigated growing your own business, especially in a world that was fairly male dominated, which still is, right?

No, it still is.

Still is.

Still is.

Right.

It's a little lonely at the top.

You've had to navigate a lot of on your own terms, growing a firm and, and in a space that was male oriented and male dominated. And I think the women listening are doing the same. They're scaling, you know, they're growing their portfolio on their own terms. So what have been some of your, you know, biggest lessons? That you've kind of, as you reflect back on your tenure, more than tenure, 25, you know, career, your career, that you, you're so appreciative of, or more importantly, you wished you, you really got when you were growing in the, in the throes of it, that the women listening can maybe do sooner and they don't have to wait as long to learn.

Yeah. And you know, maybe it takes a lifetime to get there, but, and to add substance behind the words, but I don't sweat the small stuff. I really don't. And I don't sweat the small stuff. And you win some, you lose some, and there are opportunities we lose and there's deals we miss. And I can't worry about that. It is what it is. I'm not going to be everything to everyone. Not everyone's going to want to hire us and I'm going to lose clients and not to worry about those things, you know, focus on what you're good at and excel at that. And some of this other stuff is just noise and just let it go and let it go because I think, you know, As an entrepreneur, I'm so busy and I have so much going on. I can't second-guess my decisions. I can't look backwards. What's done is done and it's just time to move on. And I'm well known for saying multiple times, why are we still talking about this? It's all over. It's done. I say it in my house. I say it in my office. It's like, we can't keep worrying about this stuff. Let's just move on. That's in the past. And I, I have found that. Women primarily, because guys don't do that. They don't stress about stuff, they just move on. Women have a tendency to second-guess or to worry, and I think it really gets in their way of making decisions that are often awesome decisions, but they've second-guessed it before they already made it. And when they make it, then they're like, well, did I make the right decision? Well, the decision's already made, so you just need to move on and trust your instincts that if something goes sideways, you'll figure it out. I really own that as a philosophy now. And I think that's the reason we continue to grow. And I see an opportunity and I take it on because I am confident in my decision and I don't psychoanalyze it. I'm like, okay, I think this makes sense. Let's run with it. And if it works, it works. And that's great. But if something goes sideways, then you either figure it out and get it done or you cut it loose and don't throw good money after bad. Just cut it loose and move on. And I just have found women are terrible at making those choices and doing that. And I don't know why, because we have awesome instincts. Women have amazing instincts. That little gut feeling is really just excellent judgment. And we don't listen to it enough.

I think we were, we were taught that we are quote unquote emotional beings, which everybody is, right? But we shouldn't take in consideration our emotions or our instincts, as you're saying, the gut feeling. Many times you meet people and you vibe. It feels that my energy is going to you and vice versa. And some people, I always say to Liz, I say, I can't pinpoint what is it because that person hasn't done anything or, but it's some, there's something in it. And I think it's a line item for me when I am analyzing partnerships and deals and different things. It is a line item, how I feel about it.

Yeah.

And what, what my gut is telling me there. More specifically in partnerships, Debra, because our community, we have many successful women in real estate that transition from being solopreneurs to start building their own teams right now. And they're leading that team. And they fell into a trap because now there's a codependency. The team needs her and she helps the team. The more that she helps the team, more the team needs her. And now there's that trap that she's like, Wow. Now I am overwhelmed with a team, but like, I'm again trapped. How did you navigate building your business and growing a team, but at the same time stepping out and empowering the team to lead and not depending on yourself?

Yeah. At first I'd say I'm lucky that I have amazing partners and, but we've been friends a lot longer than we've been partners. We were well before, you know, we've moved across multiple firms together. We were friends long before we started the firm. So that has certainly been helpful. So there an enormous amount of trust there that if you can find a partner that you have that level of trust with, don't ever take it for granted. You hold onto that because it can make the difference between success and failing. And so with that said, I would say with respect to the team, you know, I have a little bit of a mentality is that if you give people enough running room, trust your judgment, you pick the right people, but I also have a bit of mentality. There's nothing they really can do that that's bad that I cannot fix. How bad could it possibly be that I cannot fix it? But you have to give people running room. And I have a tendency to, I can hold on a little tight, but once I have confidence in someone, I'm more than happy to back off and let them run with it on that philosophy is how much damage do they really do that I, that I cannot fix? And that's a little bit, it's a confidence thing, right? With that, we also, it's a hiring practice too, is that I'm a little unorthodox. I tend to focus on people's character and their skills as a person more than their content of what they know when they come in. And so we're more often not to hire anyone from finance at all that has a finance background. I didn't have a finance background and here I am. And so it's character traits and having the confidence that the people I'm bringing in will have those traits that as we transition and we give them more, they can take it on. But it's, it's, you know, it's meeting those people where they're at and constantly evolving what that means the longer they're with the firm. But it also means the biggest challenge is getting those people into our firm because we're a tight-knit firm and hiring decisions for us are not easy for us to make. And it takes us a long time to do that because of the concern of wanting to make sure that once they're in, we've made the right call because in a small firm, we can't afford to get it wrong.

Do you believe that the hiring process will change or already changed and people are not looking solely on resumes anymore to hire people?

Yeah, I think the, the thing is with resumes, it's the easiest way to screen, right? And so we get so many resumes that come into our shop for every time we post for a position. But I think the truth is I spend as much time at stuff that's below their recent jobs and the other things they've done. I'm more interested if it's a junior person, whether they worked at Starbucks as opposed to their GPA. The GPA is great and you can have a good GPA, but lots of people have good GPAs. I'm interested if you worked at the Starbucks or you were a golf caddy or something else that defines who you are, or, you know, it's because that's content of character. And in this business, I've determined that content of character takes you so much further than where you started or the degree you did. It'll always take you so much further. And that comes a little back to, doesn't, you know, how much does where you go to school really matter at the end of the day? Because successful people are going to be successful no matter where they come from. If you give me the opportunity, and that's what I'm really looking for is, you know, who is going to be the successful person as opposed to, you know, what courses you studied or what your GPA was.

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Now, that's great. I'm just thinking from a screening perspective, people, you know, show you who they want you to No. And that happens all the time, right? We meet someone, we're on like this, we're just like, we're the best person. And we all know that our past experience tells us a lot about our future.

Yeah.

So have you identified like these character traits? Like these are the 5 that we're looking for. And then have you then identified questions, scenarios, ways to vet for those 5 areas? I'm just curious, you know, for a friend. No, I'm joking. As we build our own team, right? We're constantly figuring out how to do that better. And, and that's a really great point. So. I'm just curious to learn about your process and how you, you vet for that when people really like to put their best foot forward and show you who they want to hear.

Yeah. I tend to be very focused on people that have done a lot of different things at once and I'll take a cut in your GPA. I have no problem with that. If you've done, you've worked or you played a sport or you've, you know, you're a pianist or you did drama classes or you worked at the nursing home, I don't really care, but if you can demonstrate that you can go to school, hold down a job, play a sport, or some combinations of various different activities, then that's a really good foundation because one of the core traits I think in our business is the ability to multitask. You have to be able to jump and jump back and forth, back and forth all day long between multiple assignments, multiple demands, and, and a variety of things are going on. And I found that skill to be super important and you'd be amazed how many people don't have it. So I tend to look at that and then a passion for something. It's a passion for something, you know, our team really know they like each other, but they like their jobs and to work some of the hours in banking, you have to love it. You can't just do it because it's a job. And so people that are focused on taking pride in what they've achieved, right? So, and that's where again, GPOs are only so useful in that unless you're talking about it because you love going to school and that's your passion. That's okay. I don't know a lot of people like that, but it's something outside of that. And I don't even care if you like gardening and you're so passionate about it, but it's something in there that's adding texture to you as a person. And then you're able to talk to me about a variety of different things because that ability to figure it out and to multitask, I think, are hugely successful traits for someone in our business.

On the other side, right? When women are facing somebody that has no integrity or is not following through, I don't know. I have seen so much in terms of they keep giving chances or hanging too long into it instead of having a criteria to fire. So we talked about the criteria and the core values in order for you to hire. On the other side, how do you adjust? How do you give chances? How many chances? How do you course correct? And when for you is time to fire?

Yeah, I just had this conversation actually yesterday with a client on this very topic and almost the way you phrased it. And so for us, our first objective is, can we move someone around to a different function? You know, in our business, we have a component that requires a lot of writing. It's much more consulting, a Bain kind of consulting business. And then the other side, we have a traditional banking business. So the complete opposite skills. We're very lucky that people tend to fit one or the other, right? So left, right side of your brain. You know, a lot of folks, if they're not as strong at math, they tend to be very strong at writing, reading, creative concepts. And so we've been lucky that you can tend to switch between those because of the diversity of our business. But that said, if it doesn't work, I always suggest if you can't fit someone to fit in a bucket. Then they have somewhere in their life where they should be, and it's not where you are. We always internalize it and think, oh my gosh, you know, if we have to terminate someone, it's a horrendous act. And on one side, I understand that, but on the other side, let's think about it. If it's because they're not a good fit, I, the ultimate optimist, I believe they're an awesome fit somewhere else. Not every service is the same. Not everyone's looking for what I'm looking for. And releasing them is really putting them in a position and empowering them to go somewhere where they fit. And so for us, if we have to make that choice, we're the very first ones to help them find a fit. It's like, let's figure out what you're really good at. Maybe this is not it. Baking is not for you. And so if that ends up being where you are, because you're not really passionate about it, okay, well, let's figure out what that is and we will help you find— we know lots and lots of people will obviously help you make a transfer. And sometimes that means going back to business school. Sometimes that may mean a complete switch in career entirely. But, you know, people have to be flexible in their mindset. Coming back to where we were before, if something's not working, then you've got to change it, right? You can't keep staying on the same path if it's not working. You've put your best foot forward. If it doesn't work, it means it's not meant to be. The opportunity has switched and you gotta move with the opportunity and have that opportunity. It may mean that that person belongs somewhere else. It's not a bad outcome, right? Because I think it just helps you redirect into something that will make them happy and make you happy. Liking tends to be neutral. So I often find if you don't think someone's doing a good job, it's not often they think they're knocking it out of the park in return. And you have that massive discrepancy in your mindset. That's just from my own experience.

Love that. And, and just to circle back, you threw a lot of great insight out around the team and, and all those pieces. And to what Andresa just kind of segued into, like, what do you do when— I wanna circle back on something that, you know, I was a management consultant for many years and so many people would write down the skills and, and the experience that they wanted or the GPA, and they always missed the demands of the job, like behavioral demands. And that's the work that, that I was involved in. And I think You know, the women listening, you know, as you think about team members to join with you, okay, certainly write down those things, skills and experience, but the demands of the job, like what are the behaviors you wanna see in that person and who are they? If you had to like, and I, I love what you're saying in terms of character values, you know, those, those are the kinds of things spending that time upfront makes a difference. And to your point, it's like we all go out and say, what's our perfect deal? Well, if you don't have a clear deal criteria, any project will do because it's, yeah, doesn't matter. And that's the worst thing I could do in this business. Same thing with people, right? So, yes. And demands of the job. I always think of when we did it on the personality assessment is, you know, what are the personality traits? You know, who has personality traits? And so a lot of people miss that. And then going deeper to what you said around character, I just wanted to mention that cuz I, that's an exercise that we don't see a lot of people doing when they're building teams.

So, yeah, that's interesting, Liz. I, and how you've pointed that out that I tend to lead with the behavioral characteristics. I do. I do because I am a belief that successful people are going to be successful people. And all I'm looking for is who has those traits to be a successful person. And, and you're right. That's what I look at. I'm less interested in the GPA. I can tell you about everyone in our firm from who they are, content of character and people. I don't remember their GPAs. I know where they went to school, but it's just not. And I understand for some it's a criteria and that's fine. I have no issue with that, but what has just worked for me and taking a leaf out of my own book, because if I put it down to the finance background, I grew up on a dairy farm for crying out loud. So if I put it down to, you know, the grades, or if I put it down to my background or, you know, where my finance degree, I wouldn't be sitting here. But for me, I've outlasted most of my class. From where I started. So it's like, well, how did I get here? I turned out all right. It's focusing on the things that I think make them successful because I am driven by, you know, who do I want working with me when times are tough? I need to hit a deadline. Something's not working and we got to figure stuff out. Who do I want? What kind of person do I want in that seat? Because I think information today is free, right? You can go on the internet and I can, anything you ask me, I can find it. Right? Information is free. So I'm looking for something else.

When I was in college for journalism, and you know when people say, oh, most likely to succeed, most likely to whatever, we had this thing where our professors will tell us something. And there was one professor, he said something to me that stuck with me. I still remember it. He said to me, people were saying, oh, you're going to be other people's my colleagues, it was like, oh, you're going to be a great journalist, or he didn't say anything about journalism for me. And at that time I'll say, what are you talking about? What happened with that part? He was very broad. And what he said, he's like, Andresa, no matter what you do, honey, you will be successful because that's who you are. I was like, don't understand, very broad. So you mean that You are thinking that I'm just gonna fail in journalism and I'm gonna flip burgers. What is it that you're saying? I do understand now what he's saying, and I use the skills from journalism, but I, I, you keep saying over and over, Deborah, successful people will be successful. And I, I believe that. And look at the resumes of people that have done so many different things and the skill sets to move along. One thing before we start wrapping up. I want to talk about your mindset a little bit. You said you grew up in a dairy farm, right? Where the grit comes from.

Yeah, I would say that, you know, I grew up and it was hard, right? I had to work before school, work after school, go to school, and I always had to travel a distance to school and back. And, you know, I guess when you have to multitask and you're tasked with a huge amount of responsibility at a very young age. Very young age. And, you know, we didn't have, you know, some of the things that most kids have. Actually, we didn't have any of the things that most kids have, and we had very limited resources and we grew all of our own food and we did everything ourselves and still going to school. And I think earlier on up until, you know, maybe the 10th, 11th grade, I didn't really, I wasn't really focused on my grades at all or doing any of that. And until a professor, one of my high school teachers, I got, I moved close to Sydney and says, hey, you know, you're actually pretty good at this stuff. And really pushed me to reach. And with that encouragement, pushed me to reach. And then I think I've been very lucky to have people over time that saw an opportunity with me and gave me some of the advice you got, Andresa, from your college professor. I got it too, and also wasn't focused on it at the time. And I just think, you know, I look back and it was hard, but you know, he's gone to college. I had an hour and a half train ride just to school every day to go to college, and I had to sit on that train ride and learn how to focus through everything. And I think if I had to, the grit is probably second because to a desire to want to be the best. I always want to be the best, whether I'm cleaning my kitchen, making my bed, it's like, can I explain anything, anything, or I do a test, everything. I want to be the best, and I, I can't be comfortable with the effort. And so I think the grit follows the characteristic of just wanting it to be perfect. And I think that trait with, as a child, you have to be like that when you're on a farm because, you know, so much is resting on the decisions you make. There are different kinds of decision, but nonetheless, when I'm in charge of something at the age of 10, then you, you have to execute because no one's coming back to check what I'm doing. Right. And so as a result, it's the characteristic of wanting to excel. The great as a result follows.

Yeah, that's very powerful. And clearly has served you in phenomenally.

It's been awesome.

Probably both, right? Deborah, this has been great. We appreciate you being here with us. Where can the ladies listening learn more about you and connect with you further?

Sure. So we, our firm, SeneCap Group, we have a website, senecapgroup.com, and I'm on LinkedIn, Deborah Smith under SeneCap, and our firm is also on SeneCap. Anyone can always reach out to me. I'm available. Anyone that my story guidance or thoughts is helpful to anybody and you think you're as crazy as I am, feel free to reach out. I'm happy to meet people who are as nuts as I am. That would be fantastic.

All this information you guys can find on our show notes. Now we're going to transition to our fabulous 3 questions. And the first one is, Deborah, what's the most transformational book you ever read?

Well, this isn't going to surprise you. How Bad? Great by Angela Duckworth. It's a phenomenal book. And I picked it up. I heard about it. I was like, oh my gosh, that sounds like me. It's right. I believe in what it says. And so, yeah, it's a book I definitely refer to other people. It's certainly inspiring for everyone to keep doing what we're doing.

How funny, right? And I just asked you about that. Second question is, what's the most powerful routine that you do to create a financially free and balanced life, whatever balance means to you?

Yeah, good question. So being young and coming from my background, I heard on the radio station when I was a little kid listening to FM radio back then, where a commentator said, you know, if you want to be rich, you got to focus on the dollars and cents, the big stuff. You know, everyone has a tendency to focus on big things, but if you focus on the dollars and cents, you'd be surprised how much money you waste. And there's a lot. If everyone does that and you focus on the dollars and cents, and to this day, I abide by it to this day. It's like, well, do I really need that dollars and cents small purchase? Because the big ones you have to do, but the little ones to always focus on because they add up, they really add up.

Awesome. Last question. Which woman, famous or not, has inspired you the most?

Yeah, you know, my answer evolves on this all the time, but I think today I'd have to say, being an Australian, uh, Olivia Newton-John passed away recently. And my first, one of my early concerts that I met when I met my husband, we went to a concert she did with Johnny Farnham in Australia, and it was so impactful. I remember it, but it was such a hallmark of our house. I've had my kids listen to her as I was growing up. I grew up with her music and I just, she was on the front page of magazines and articles back home. She will be missed.

Definitely.

Deborah, thank you so much for being on our show. Thank you for sharing all your great wisdom. We really, you know, appreciate your time and all your great ideas and thoughts here for our audience. So thank you.

Thank you. It was an absolute pleasure to meet you, Bai. Thanks for having me on.

Thank you, Debra. If you enjoyed this podcast and want to receive updates on our next interviews, go to our website, therealestateinvestor.com. There you can subscribe to our show, become part of our investor community, and get updates on upcoming episodes.

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Ciao.