198 - Mastering Social Media Satire, with Jack Raines

Welcome to The Marketing Millennials, the no BS marketing podcast. I'm Daniel Murray, and join me for unfiltered conversations with the brains behind marketing's coolest companies. The one request I tell our guests: stories or it didn't happen. Get ready to turn the fuck up.

LinkedIn is an insane, like, top of funnel to get people onto a newsletter. And it kind of makes sense. It's a text-based platform. And if you write a blog or newsletter that's text-based, so the conversion rate is pretty high. And like, I feel like people on LinkedIn like reading stuff, like they like your content on there. They're more inclined to like sign up for a blog or newsletter or whatever versus Twitter or X.

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What's up everybody, welcome back to another episode of The Marketing Millennials. Today we have a repeat guest, Jack He is the king of funny crap on LinkedIn, and I'll let him give a little intro. But if you see his satirical stuff on LinkedIn, it's pretty hilarious and it goes viral a lot on both Twitter, or now X, and LinkedIn. So welcome, Jack, to the podcast.

I also still call it Twitter. I really don't think the X name is ever going to stick. Thanks for having me, Daniel. Um, a quick summary about me: I'm Jack, I write a, uh, kind of finance blog, personal finance blog called Young Money with 50,000 readers, and I edit a daily financial newsletter called Exec Sum which has about 260,000 readers. You may or may not have seen me on LinkedIn at some point because I've gotten somewhat infamous for satirical, what we call shitposts on LinkedIn, basically making fun of the like hustle culture stuff you'll see over there a lot. So yeah, writer, newsletter editor, and satirical LinkedIn poster.

Let's go into how you come up with posts first, and then we'll go into how it's helped you grow on LinkedIn.

I remember like last time I was on your podcast, probably, I think it was like probably around a year ago, something like that. You'd mentioned that LinkedIn had been your, like, primary growth channel and you've been crushing it. And I really hadn't posted on LinkedIn that much. And then I heard that from a few people, right? Like, LinkedIn is the— my buddy Nathan Ball, I think you know Nathan, he said the same thing. LinkedIn is the, like, place to put content out. I didn't know what kind of content I wanted to do because I'd gotten a somewhat, like, sarcastic, casual, like, conversational persona on Twitter that really reflected like how I write my long-form stuff. I wanted to do the same thing on LinkedIn, but like Twitter feels more casual than LinkedIn. I didn't know if I could do the exact same thing. And then I realized that there really isn't that much content on LinkedIn. Like, not that many people are putting organic original stuff out there. A lot of the people that are, are kind of the people who are like selling courses or like pyramid scheme type of stuff, or they're like 'Here's how you hustle to get out of the 9 to 5 to get rich,' and it's somewhat cringeworthy, but it would do pretty well on LinkedIn. So I figured if I started putting satirical content that was like— I would position it like personal finance hacks, but it was actually just like satire, making fun of the people putting that type of content out— it could do pretty well because I figured that most people would get that it was satire. I think it was funny. Enough people wouldn't understand that it was satire, they would get mad at the Obviously bad advice I was giving. So once or twice a week I will just post something ridiculous on LinkedIn. Okay, so I put one out, this is a month ago, talking about how I'd like— I just got back from Europe and I was talking about how I was horrified to realize that I'd lost like 6 hours of productivity due to the time change flying to Europe. But then that made me realize that if I flew west instead of east, I could actually gain 3 hours flying from New York to California. So I said that every Monday I've started flying from New York to California to gain 3 hours of my work week. And then every Saturday I'd fly back to New York. It's basically shorter weekends and longer work weeks to give me like a net 6 hours more productivity. Giving up weekend time for weekday time and acting like it was like basically like a life hack to get more working hours per week. And it blew up. We got like 3,000 likes, 1 million impressions. It was literally— I'd been on an airplane flying back from Europe to New York and kind of jet lagged, and it just kind of hit me that this would be a very funny thing, like take this thing that I'm doing right now, flying, realizing there's a time change, somehow turning that into a satirical LinkedIn post. But to get back to your question about how do I come up with my stuff, it's literally just I'll be doing something in my day-to-day life completely unrelated to content. And I'll just think of a way that whatever I'm like involved in at that point could be a LinkedIn post. I think that's kind of how my writing process in general works. Like just whatever I'm doing during my day, like those things will be floating around my head and then you never really know when a couple of inputs will just combine. Like I could be at the gym or just walking around New York or whatever and realize, oh wow, this could be a great idea. And I've got like in my notes, I've got a folder for writing ideas for like LinkedIn satire ideas. I'll like jot down whatever that little brain blast is. And whenever I'm back at my computer, start working on it. But yeah, it's like I always kind of have this like, could this be a funny thing to make fun of something that I could put on LinkedIn?

That's what people underestimate is one, good ideas don't normally just come when you're like sitting in front of a laptop. And then two, you must consume a lot of like, or see a lot of like the these hacks or personal finance stuff or stuff on LinkedIn, on X, that you have those ideas to connect. Because if you didn't consume any personal finance stuff, you wouldn't be able to be like, oh, this would be a funny post. I'm flying back from Europe and I'm saving hours is a huge thing. And you have to work 18-hour work weeks is a thing. And now I have to like post about it. How do you structure the notes to make sure, like, you keep that idea fresh when you go writing?

I used to, like, have a pretty detailed— like, I had to— I'd use Notion and had all this stuff, but I quickly realized that, like, I really just need to use the Notes app on my phone because it's like I have an iPhone, it's synced to my Mac. So I just have the Notes folder and I have a list of writing ideas for, like, long-form, like, blog posts that I want to write about. I have one for Link to the Satirical Post where like just as soon as I have an idea, I just pull up my phone and like type in a blurb that will like trigger my memory that I can like further elaborate on later. And then I have like another folder that's a list of just like general random business ideas, like things that I think I should do with my blog from like updating my landing page to a new feature that I should add to whatever. Those are like the 3 primary like work-related folders I have or content-related folders. And just whenever those ideas hit, I immediately pull out my phone, type it down so I don't forget about it. And then when I'm on my laptop, I can go through and like expand on it a little bit. But just capturing that initial, like, even if it's just 5 or 6 words, like I think I put flight time change, like LinkedIn workweek satire post. And it's like, that was enough that once I look back at it later, like it'll retrigger that idea. But it's, it's really simple. And then like, that's, that's literally my, like, my note-taking thing. It's just the Notes app and I have it synced through iCloud. Like, I think in general it's easy, especially like as a writer or creator, to try to overcomplicate kind of how you have your systems or like all the stuff that isn't writing, overcomplicating that. But you literally just need like— like, the only reason I don't use like a pen and notepad is it's more convenient to just have my phone synced. Otherwise I would just have like a pen and paper that I wrote it down with. But yeah, just the Notes app.

It's kind of funny, I was actually watching, like, because I have bad ADHD and I like, I was watching one of the, like a video because I got on ADHD TikTok now and it's like, oh, you should bring a notepad wherever you go. Like, how realistic would it be to just be carrying a notepad wherever you go? Like, who actually does that? Like, so yeah, I'm a Notes Notes app person as well.

Yeah, I mean, I— the only stuff that I like frequently write is like I have a journal that I'll write stuff when I actually need to like think stuff through because it forces you to slow down. But for just idea capturing, I think people like— it's almost like the idea of doing stuff like physically writing it is a little bit romanticized at this point because we have computers and phones. It's like, oh, it's better or more pure. The Notes app's just simpler. Like, I don't know, I don't really get caught up in the you have to handwrite everything So you come up with idea on a—

wherever you write in your notes app. Now you're sitting down to write the post. How do you think about structuring it so it gets the most attention on LinkedIn? Like, what is your structure of writing?

So there's a— which I'm sure you know this too— like, the way that LinkedIn posts work is there's room for like 3 lines of text and then you have to click the show more. So I always want it to like, like I always want my post to like have the— it almost be a cliffhanger before the show more part. So, but people won't really know where it's going. And at this point I've done so much satire on LinkedIn, people usually think it's going to be satire, but they have no idea where I'm going to take it. So it becomes a like, okay, I want to read the rest of this. Occasionally, not everything I post is satire. Sometimes I post like actual content on there. So it's like enough of a mix of real stuff and satirical stuff that like if the hook is good enough, people will want to read it. Like for the Europe one, for example, the part that you can see without hitting see more is after flying to Europe last week, I was horrified to realize that I lost 6 hours due to the time change. 6 hours that could have been spent replying to emails and cold calling potential clients were gone forever. However, instead of wallowing in self-pity, I quickly realized— dot dot dot. So it's like there's an intro, you don't really know I'm gonna go with it, but you can tell it's about to be something either funny or insightful or ridiculous. So I always, when it comes to structuring it, I want the first like 2 sentences to be something like, like a hook that would catch somebody's eyes, but it can't look like you're just trying to grab attention. I like— it's hard to It's one of those things, you know, when you see it, like when you see posts on X or on LinkedIn where it's just almost way too blatant that the person who wrote it is just trying to grab your attention to sell you something. I want it to be like a very intriguing intro to a story. Then after that, it's almost like the— just the general— not like hero's journey, but a story developed where you have like the intro is the context that puts me in a like conflict or like an internal conflict of trying to figure something out. But like, I don't know if you've ever watched the show Nathan for You, but it's almost like— and like, like, if you watch Nathan for You, you know what I'm talking about? Nathan Fielder?

No, I haven't. Oh, um, never mind.

But it's, it's, it's almost, uh, it's the show about essentially is like this independent consultant where people have a problem and he'll just come up with the most ridiculous solution to solve it. I go through the same thought process with this. Like, I make what could be a legitimate, like, business or finance scenario, and then go through this just ridiculous— like, over the course of the post, it escalates. Like, my solution gets so over the top to the point that, like, oh, I'm missing 6 hours from work, which the simple resolution is probably travel less or, like, work a couple of extra hours on weekends or just use Wi-Fi on the plane. For me, I took it to the extreme of flying west instead of east to gain more hours on my work week, to have even more hours to work based on the time zone that I'm at. But it keeps escalating to the point that it's like, where is he finally going to take this? And then the, like, resolution is just insane. And it always— like, they pretty much always go pretty viral at this point because, one, I'm kind of known for doing this, so people realize it's a, like, entertainment thing. But because my network keeps growing, there's constantly new people who haven't seen my stuff that'll see a post. And, like, social media is interesting because people cannot resist dunking on something they disagree with. So this is— nobody's posting satire on LinkedIn. Nobody's expecting to see a satirical post on LinkedIn. So people love to just get mad at it. So yeah, I mean, I literally write it like it's a story where I want the part that you have to expand to, like, capture your attention and then just let it rip. Like, the more extreme, the better. But I want it to be something that is plausible. As ridiculous as it sounds, you can follow the, like, logical path enough that like somebody could actually do this. It'd be insane. But like there's always the possibility that somebody legitimately flies from New York to L.A. to get more like hours in their workweek. Like it needs to be just believable enough that somebody could fall for it.

Also, I do know Nathan for You now. I didn't know his name, but I've seen— he's ridiculous. But I think what you're doing, what people could learn from this is one, like how to structure a LinkedIn post, like And also too, this storytelling where storytelling is like, okay, I'm gonna have a good hook, I'm gonna have a character development or a story development, and then I'm gonna give like a CTA or like a takeaway at the end where you learn something, even though it's a ridiculous thing that you're learning on your post, it's still, so many people go learn that. And also you're doing something different. That's like when I started posting memes on LinkedIn, people were like, why are you posting memes on LinkedIn? Why it's not a— LinkedIn's a professional place to be posting, and now people love it. So I like that you're just doing you on LinkedIn and following what you're doing.

Yeah.

I want to go to the next step. So you've come up with posts, you've written the posts, it goes viral. So what are you doing to capture people? Like, what's the point of you posting this on LinkedIn for people that don't know?

Yeah. So while I do like doing it just for entertainment's sake, the real reason is LinkedIn is an insane, like, top of funnel to get people onto a newsletter. And it kind of makes sense. It's a text-based platform. And if you write a blog or newsletter that's text-based, so the conversion rate is pretty high. And like, I feel like people on LinkedIn like reading stuff, like they like your content on there. They're more inclined to like sign up for a blog or newsletter or whatever versus Twitter or X. So typically what I'll do is I'll put the post out, I'll give it 20 or 30 minutes to make sure it's getting engagement, like hitting like 50 or 60 likes. And then at the bottom I'll add something like— the cool thing about LinkedIn is that you can edit your post. So I'll add a PS like, if you want like more personal finance tips like this, give me a follow and I'll like tag myself @JackRaines. And then like, if you want to like read even more stuff from me, Check out my blog, Young Money. You can join 44,000 other readers here. Put a link to that. And the conversion rate isn't like super, super high because it's like, if you read a satirical LinkedIn post, you probably think it's funny. But the jump from that to reading a blog, like, you don't necessarily know what I'm gonna be writing about on that. But because it's long-form written content, like, satire is almost a like second level of thinking where like you both understand a thing and then you understand it well enough to make fun of it. Of being more it, it almost conveys that like, okay, like I have a decent enough understanding of this stuff that my longer form actual writing would probably be good. And like a viral LinkedIn post can still drive like hundreds of new subscribers even if the content of the post isn't that related to what I write. Like my blog is like long form, everything from personal finance to more like philosophical thoughts about like people and money. But I think because my tone is the same, my long-form writing and my LinkedIn stuff, even though one of them satire, one of them is more serious. It works. And I was worried that like I might get a lot of subscribers that don't actually read the newsletter, but my open rate for subscribers I get from LinkedIn is like 58% and my average open rate is like 44%. So it's like my best subscribers come from LinkedIn. And the other thing is, even if people don't sign up just from the like lead gen on that post, I now have more— a lot of people just follow me on LinkedIn. Like a year ago, I had 2,000 LinkedIn followers. Now I have like 34,000. So if you follow me because of that post, I also just post my blog post on LinkedIn later. So if you follow me for the satire stuff and then you're one of my followers, you become another person who could see my blog post as like standalone stuff, read it, and it's like, oh, this guy who I follow because he's funny, is actually a good writer too. I'm going to sign up for his blog. So there's a lot of long-term value in building a LinkedIn audience because a lot of those people over time will eventually funnel to my newsletter. So I'm not even as worried about just whether they come from that one post as long as they're in my ecosystem for the foreseeable future.

I think people mistake like what people do on social media for like goals on social media. I think Like, for example, your goal, and actually my goal as well, is to get as much attention on a platform to drive people to another platform like your blog or newsletter. Some people's whole intent is to be like a thought leader on that platform and that's their only medium. So like it makes sense that they're going in depth on social and they're only writing there. But if you're trying to grab much attention, the way to do it is gain more followers, gain more impressions, gain more likes. Because the more people who potentially could see your stuff is the more people who could potentially be funneled into your next thing. It's just like marketing in general. Like you put out Facebook posts and stuff like that, only a little bit converts. But the more and more people who get to know who you are, the more and more chances you are to convert them and stay top of mind. When you do a post. So 100%, it's just very smart, smart post. I mean, start smart way of doing things.

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Where did you learn to, like, write satirically? Because I— it's like a hard skill to learn if you don't if you don't have it. So how did you learn it?

I don't really know. I do know that like personality-wise, my general sense of humor is like shock value, satire. Like that's just how I am. Like, like, like I love situational humor and situational comedy where like when I'm like with friends, be talking about something, and if I'm making a joke, like my general sense of humor is like an unexpected twist that's funny. And it might be funny because it's a little bit messed up. Like, that's just generally where my head is. And like, I'm also a writer, so it really— I think it was almost a byproduct of like, that's always the type of stuff that I found funny. And I would occasionally see like a LinkedIn post. Like, there's one that like people repost, like I've seen a million times about— there's a whole like subculture of people who make fun of LinkedIn because it's cringe. And like, you'll see this post occasionally where somebody's going to a job interview but then they're late because they had to stop to help a dog that got hit by a car, take it to the vet. They go to the job interview, apologize for being late. Guess who's interviewing them? The dog. And it's like making fun of that whole like, oh, like doing this thing to help people and then it works out for you in the long run. I've probably seen that post like 4 different times, and I always think it's hysterical because it's like a ridiculous turn of events that obviously didn't happen. Like, it's almost like a self-glorification of the person posting it, like, I'm a good person for stopping and then it worked out for me. And I just always thought that was funny. And there's like a million different ways to do that where it's like almost like a completely like coming off as like an aloof, unaware, like self-boastful piece, or like, like you're giving people advice, it's actually horrible. Like there's so many different ways to play that, but that is my kind of like almost like that's the, the muse that I'm copying on all this stuff. But it really just fits my personality. And then like I've like a lot of what I— like, all writing in general follows the same. Like, you want to hook people early and then have a development and then have a conclusion. And like, I've published probably 400 blog posts at this point, so I just get how the writing process works. So it's really just over time I've like kind of combined that with my sense of humor and just got a feel for— you probably have a similar experience where once you've put enough content out, you just kind of like intuitively know what works and what doesn't. So it's almost like the byproduct of just doing this a lot, but it really is just like my sense of humor plus writing a lot plus just like seeing stuff like that on LinkedIn previously that I found funny. Um, but I wish I could say there was like some step-by-step process I went through, but it's really like it just kind of happened.

I think that's an even better answer because I think everybody thinks that people just come up with like structural ways of doing things and even me, at the end of the day, a lot of the stuff is just sticking to your strengths and combining things and just doing things over and over and figure out. It's— I always tell people, you can't teach taste. Like, you can't teach it. It's something that, that happens from putting things out there, seeing how the audience reacts. It's like sports too. It's like, it's because muscle memory. Like, oh, I just know to do this now. It's like become second nature for Yeah. So I guess the answer you're going to give to this is like a lot of the stuff, you know, that I just know is going to go viral because of taste. It's not like a strategic thing that you do. Or is it like, is it topics that you think about that, that you have documented that you saw a cringe post that I can write a satirical thing about?

Like there's some stuff like the like the one about the like flying west or whatever, where I just kind of figured that would do well. But there's also times where I see something that's like blowing up on Twitter or LinkedIn where it's like, that's the thing I can make fun of. And because it's a thing that's like the current thing in social media, it has a much higher chance of going viral. Um, like one lately has been, there's this whole conspiracy theory about like BlackRock owning everything, where people— it's— I don't know what percentage of people posting about this actually believe it and what percentage of people just know that enough people believe it that they'll with it and then get a following. But essentially, like, for people who don't know, BlackRock is a massive financial group that's invested in all sorts of stuff, and they have like an ownership stake in basically every publicly traded company. The reason why is because they have a bunch of index funds that people like you and me can invest in, where like technically BlackRock owns it, but that's in name only. Like, the stocks are functionally owned by all the investors who own it. So it's almost like BlackRock is just like a medium for for like retail investors to have stakes in these companies. But people post this whole thing about, did you know that BlackRock actually owns like Apple and Amazon and Tesla and all this stuff? And just to make it look like a conspiracy theory so it blows up. So I knew if I did anything satirical related to that, it would do well. Like, it's just like, because enough people are going to see it and think that I'm in on it that they're going to engage with it. And then a bunch of people are going to see it, know that I'm making fun of an obnoxious thing, and they're going to engage with it. And then a third group of people will know that the BlackRock conspiracy is kind of a joke, not realize that I'm making fun of it, thinking that I'm also buying into it, and they'll get mad at it. So it's like the perfect storm. People are going to love it, hate it, and not understand it, and they're all going to engage with it. So I did this whole thing about how, like, did you know that BlackRock owns every company? But nobody's taking the next step to ask who owns BlackRock. So then I go through this whole thing about how Well, Vanguard, which is another asset manager, actually owns stock in BlackRock. But then it goes even further where in my retirement account, a lot of my money is invested in a Vanguard account. And it's like the slow realization that I actually own Vanguard because Vanguard is owned by shareholders and Vanguard owns BlackRock and BlackRock owns all these companies. So actually, like me with my like thousands of dollars in my retirement account actually owns every company in the world. Like, it's a ridiculous, like, realization. I have the whole thing like this, holy shit, like, I'm actually in charge of everything. This is insane. And I posted it like 3 months ago. It blew up. Then the BlackRock thing like started circulating again. So I was like, I'm just going to repost this exact same thing. Same blew up again, like millions of impressions. And I posted on X and then I made like a carousel posted on LinkedIn. Got like 700 likes, did pretty well. Um, like I knew that would do well because I was making fun of such a timely thing. And that's almost like you just— if you're on social media enough, like you just see the stuff that people are talking about. I have like some evergreen stuff that's just— I think it's funny in general. And then I will, like, if there's an opportunity to make fun of a current thing, I'm going to do it. But I don't really go out of my way looking for that stuff. It's just if I see a trend coming up again and again for 2 or 3 days, then I'll jump on the train and make fun of it.

I— what I wanted to also get out of this for everybody is that maybe what he's— what Jack's doing is not how you should be writing on social media because that's his style, but there's so many lessons that you can learn from just like how he does his, his stuff that you could take for anything in social media. Like, one, how to structure a post. Two, how to engage an audience, make sure you have something that's relevant or something that's timely or something that is controversial. And you could put it out there on social media and have a successful post, whether it's satirical or not. I just wanted to— Jack is the king at making, but I also think it's zigging when someone's zagging. Like he's doing something different that was never seen on LinkedIn. So obviously that's one of the best ways to gain a following, is being known as someone doing something and having a style and owning a style.

Yeah.

What's a marketing hill you would die on?

So I think in general, and I don't know if this is directly marketing or not, but just for content stuff in general, the longer that you can push off monetization The like more authentic you make your voice. And I think like authenticity at the end of the day is like one of the best— like authenticity is the best marketing tool because that's what leads people to like tell other people about your stuff. And like it's like having an authentic voice and building an authentic following where like you didn't really trick people into following you. They just like your stuff is like that's how you get to where everything you post on socials, people engage with because it's you. Not because you caught people's eyes. What I mean by that is, like, I've had people— and we can talk about this a little bit too— like, I've had people, like, hit me up about doing, like, sponsored LinkedIn satirical posts because I know I get a lot of traffic. But I'm pretty picky about when I do that because I don't want it to look like every LinkedIn post is me just, like, selling my digital real estate to a buyer. Or, like, I've never done Twitter threads and stuff like that that are, like, sponsored by somebody. They're leading to a CTA. Like, I'm very particular, especially on social media, about how I monetize it. Because if your audience detects that, like, like, there's nothing wrong with monetizing your stuff. Like, I make money from selling ads on my blog. I'm well aware of, like, how, like, the economics of all this. But if you worry too much about the money side of your content and your social media presence too early and you start trying to over-monetize, it just kind of dilutes the value of your stuff because it's obvious you're just doing it for dollars. Versus if you don't monetize that much and then you offer a course or you do run like a paid endorsement or some kind of like, like you have like a multi-piece, like, like ad contract through your newsletter and socials and stuff. When you do it less, your audience knows that if you are advertising something, it's probably a lot higher signal, higher value thing that you said yes to, which actually increases the conversion of that thing. Maybe this isn't as much for marketing in general, but just like I think a lot of creators worry too much about the monetization of their thing versus like building a big audience and being good at it and being known for what they do. And if you try to like worry too much about the money side too early, it can actually like screw up the whole other thing. It's the classic like making a short-term financial decision that can be long-term detrimental. I think that screws a lot of people up because at the end of the day, the best marketing strategy is just having people who really like your stuff. Everything else just like just feeds on top of that.

I think it's great advice because I, I didn't start actually making any money from The Marketing Millennials till almost 2 years in. Yeah, but it also like lets you build the habit. It lets you be able to show that you're actually passionate about what you're doing because I think a lot of the, the people that I see that monetize, they get lost in that they're not passionate about this anymore and it becomes like a burnout thing. They get lost in writing content that's not authentically theirs because they— not because they're getting paid for it, but they just writing things that would be better for sponsors, not better for their audience. Yeah. If you do what you're doing and do it authentically, people will just sponsor you because of how great you become— have become, not because of the content you put out. So I think that's a great point.

Yeah, 100%.

Lastly, I want to get into where could people find what you're doing, follow you, etc.

So the easiest place to find me is on the website formerly known as Twitter at Jack_Raines, R-A-I-N-E-S, and then on LinkedIn, Jack Raines. That should be the first Jack Raines that pops up, but my bio says curator of vibes. So it's pretty like my LinkedIn account doesn't look like a typical LinkedIn account for my content, which is the most important place I'd like you to find me. My finance blog is at youngmoney.co.co. I put out 1 to 2 long-form posts a week just on kind of like any sort of like personal finance ideas, career navigation, like anything like that that I find interesting. I write about— people seem to like it. So yeah, Twitter or X.com and LinkedIn at Jack Raines and then youngmoney.co for all my written content.

I just like when people are doing things differently and I wish I could write like Jack in the way he does things. It's hilarious. I don't know how he comes up with half the things he does, but he does it perfectly in what I think is great marketing with a hook. Storytelling, takeaway, engaging the audience, knowing how to like piss off some people, but also stick with the raving fans that he actually wants to connect with. So I think those are all like things you could learn in marketing just from Jack. So thank you so much for joining and it's been awesome.

Ciao. Thank you, Daniel. Appreciate you having me.

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