Chatting with Australias most dialled in builder

Have you ever wondered what it means to build with intention? Well, I'm Hamish.

And I'm Matt, and we are dedicated to pushing boundaries and building better homes.

We welcome you to join us on the Mindful Builder Podcast, where we're committed to driving positive change in the building industry by surrounding you with experts in their field and being open about our lives as builders.

Join us on this mindful journey of construction by subscribing to the Mindful Podcast. We're in Adelaide. We're in South Australia. We're not in Adelaide technically, are we?

Mount Barker.

Mount Barker.

Mount Barker, yes.

And we are recording from Enduro Builders Passive House certified, certified Passive House display home. Display home.

Um, and obviously this is our, the mobile Pro Climber studio.

Studio, yeah. So we're up here for a night. We've got an event tonight with Climbers Shore and Dura Builders. It's gonna be fun, hey?

It's gonna be really good. Um, and sold out tonight too. Yeah, so there's gonna— this room's gonna be jam-packed full of 20 or 30 people. I hope the HRV works.

Yeah, I think Jackson forgot the boost switches.

You don't need them.

Today we're joined by Jackson. Jackson, I'm gonna let you introduce yourself. Obviously we've known each other for a long time. In fact, we did the Passive House course.

That's when we met, at the tradies' course.

Oh, you did your Passive House course together.

We did, yeah.

Yeah, I always say to people that Hamish and I bonded over a dislike of idiots.

Jackson, thanks for joining us. Do you want to let everyone know who you are and what you do?

I'm the owner of Enduro Builders. and Climashore. So Enduro Builders, we specialize in building energy-efficient homes and building to the certified Passive House standard. We've been going now for 10 years and we do about 25 projects a year.

Oh.

We're still growing. So we've got a fantastic team of guys now. We've got 17 of us. Are they new homes, all of them, or anything? No, there's a mixture of addition renos and new homes. We'd love to make our mix more new home, but there's so many houses that we come across that are, they're worth saving and they're worth improving. Yeah.

Is it pretty much as long as the project's profitable, ticks the criteria of high performing, you'll take it on? Yeah.

If people want to improve the quality of the thermal envelope of the house and their comfort, and it's a project where we know we can add value, then we're happy to do it.

Yeah.

I'm also the owner of Climashore. So I set Climashore up because I, as I got into Passive House, I got into Proclima.

Yeah.

And we were the biggest client in the state, also the only client, and we were Just, yeah, I got introduced to Thomas back then and, yeah, started the business as a separate business. And so we provide, we obviously sell Proclima membranes, we sell a bunch of ancillary stuff that goes with it, and provide consulting to builders and architects on what we do. And that business is mainly run by Jess, who everyone's probably And so is this the house we're sitting in now?

Is this your first Passive House or?

This was our, yeah, this was the first certified Passive House that we built.

Wow.

We had a couple of houses beforehand that were not certified, but we did everything that you would do. So yeah, it was, when did we do this? 2022, did this house.

And how many certified projects now?

Good question. We do about 3 or 4 a year, so there's— we'd be nudging 10 now.

Yeah, awesome.

I actually love when you introduced Enduro Builders before, you actually said we build energy-efficient homes before Passive House.

Yep.

Which, and I don't want to ruffle any feathers in the Passive House space. Either.

We're past that.

We're very much past that, but I actually really like that because I, in my opinion, makes your product or what you do as a business much more open to a broader part of the community. And I know, you know, having chats with you over the years, you're quite an ambitious person. And I think if you set out to build 100 certified passive homes a year, you'd never hit it.

There's a pause there.

Not in the next 12 months. Maybe in the next 10 years.

So the goal is—

You make certified buildings?

Yeah. But in the next 10 years, that I think, That goal, which I've shared a lot, is still a goal, but I'm realistic about it's not gonna happen quickly and it's certainly not gonna happen while the cost base is still just a bit too high for it to be something that everyone would look at.

So just to go back here, one of your goals is to build 100 certified passive homes in a year.

Yep. And I reckon it'll take me 10 years to get to that.

So it's an extra 10 per year?

Yes.

Yeah, but we're talking about certified buildings. So he does 25 homes a year at the moment, not certified buildings, 3 or 4. To actually get it— how many passive homes do you build a year? Certified buildings?

Oh, 2.

Yeah, I reckon 1 or 2 for me, not turning over the same volume as Jackson. But if everyone came to me Well, I don't think we would have a business, a viable business, if we were just saying we only build certified passive home builders, uh, passive homes.

I reckon, I don't— That's why I say 10 years.

But is that an education thing? I reckon you would. It might not be the scale, but I think you, I think there's such an appetite. Like I look at all my projects that I've even gotten pre-construction.

Yeah.

All of them, all of them are going for certification.

Yeah, I agree. But we're talking about 100.

Yeah, but as sort of, it's like, it's a marketing thing.

Anyway, I hope you do it.

No, but like, it's a—

I think if anyone's gonna do it, I reckon it's you.

But it's a good segment. It's a good actual conversation because we don't plan anything what we're gonna talk about. But you talk about the cost of building here. It's everywhere right now with the war in Iran. But we, is it actually that more expensive? And like, 'cause there's no one's done any study or any data around it. It's just, Yeah, it is.

I don't know where to start answering that question. I can answer all the bits of it because we looked at this house and we obviously had very detailed costing information and we were able to identify that it was about $50 grand.

Over how much? Like what was the build cost?

At the time that we built it, it was about $650 grand.

So what's that, an extra— is that 5% more? Is that maths off the top of my head?

Yeah, give or take. Yeah, obviously as the house gets bigger, so there's a few things like as the house gets bigger, the cost to convert it from just a high efficiency house where we still get under 3 air changes to a certified Passive House, you're pretty much talking about adding an internal membrane on the walls because our high efficiency spec. We go across the ceiling with intello. And, um, and a couple of things to do with, you know, insulating under slabs goes from optional to mandatory. Um, and, and if a handful of bits and bobs with glazing and the like, um, plus the, plus the consultants and certifying fees. But on a 2-storey building, that jump is a lot smaller.

Yeah.

In price because you can do Just the basics. Like we're sitting in a room here, that ceiling is fixed below the rafters, so there's no space for your HRV ducts. There's intello there, but the HRV ducting is all run through the floor.

I have noticed that.

Yeah.

Yeah. So yeah, you spend a bit more money on your floor structure because you're doing trusses, but you're not blowing out the cost in a big way.

Just want to— you said something before in your high-efficiency homes, and after this question, I just want you to maybe talk about the different levels of homes that you build at Enduro Builders. But first question is, is the reason you're doing it in the ceiling just because that's where you're seeing most of your vapour movement? That's where you see most of the risk? Or is it a mould and condensation issue?

Jess, Jess.

Risk mitigation, or is this a Jess question?

Uh, so it's primarily to do with how we get airtightness to the level that we do. So there's, um, there's also a practical part. So because you wouldn't spend money on intello unless it made practical sense in a house where you don't have to have it. So with high efficiency homes, we focus on the membrane on the outside doing the doing the airtightness work.

Yep.

Then the, um, the reason for having intello across the ceiling is that we use it to separate the insulation above from the conditioned space below, and then we, we batten it all so it's all supported, and then we drop the ceiling off that. So all of our high-efficiency houses with 2.7-meter-high ceilings will have 3-meter-high walls because then you drop the ceiling and all of your ductwork goes into that drop. Um, and it is just a good way of separating the two. And we looked at doing it with plasterboard, the pro— and we did build a house with plasterboard.

Um, airtight plasterboard, airtightness, that is. You've got plasterboard here.

Yeah, so we're not, we're not using the plasterboard for airtightness. We're basically using the plasterboard, or in all the homes we build now, intello, to hold the insulation up.

Yeah.

And make sure that there's no free air movement between air rising up through the ceiling and the insulation. And it's— there's also then at the very end of all of that, and this is where lots of people are gonna go, oh, you can't do that. actually you can, you just have to calculate it, um, is that the Intello does reduce the amount of moisture going into the roof space, which is completely sealed because we're relying on the membrane to go around the outside. And there's a, um, essentially that moisture that goes up into the ceiling space, you've got to make sure that the Mento has got enough vapor transportability.

Yep.

To take that moisture out. So if you can start off by reducing the amount getting in.

So just, so just for clarity, you're saying that you're comfortable putting your insulation essentially in a cold roof scenario rather than pushing your insulation to the top of the—

yeah, okay. I'm the same too.

Roof trusses, which then, which then brings the cost down.

Yep.

And But it does also mean that it becomes a performance solution.

Yeah. Have you had that signed off as a performance solution yet?

No. So what I've done is I've done the calcs.

Yeah.

And I'm waiting for the day that a certifier says, you can't do that. How are you doing that? And they were like, here's the performance solution and we're validating it via calculation.

But there's no way to calculate a 3D structure for that, isn't it?

Isn't that the whole issue with Woofy that you can't actually Yeah, so it's, um, the way I've done it is in a spreadsheet. Yeah, because you work out the volume, then you work out at the different temperatures how much moisture is in there.

Yeah.

And, um, and then you calculate how, how much moisture makes it out through the membrane. And then as long as the, the amount that gets out is greater than the amount going in.

But can you sign off on a performance solution as a builder? Wouldn't you not have to give that to a building surveyor or to an engineer or someone?

No. So we can do all the calculations and as long as a certifier is comfortable that—

That's correct.

Yeah. Yeah. And you can always go to a third party.

Yeah.

And we could go to someone like Jesse Clark and I could give him the spreadsheet if the certifier was really Not happy. Yeah, if they're not happy about it, you just go to a third party and say, here's all my calcs. Yeah.

Interesting.

Have I made an error?

Because I build the same as you. I hate that rule where you've got to wrap it, like leave it ventilated. I just think it to me is a, in my limited knowledge, it's an easy cop-out way to not solve the problem, but do something about it.

Yeah. Yeah. And The tricky bit is what I'm talking about, it moves you into building stuff that is performance solutions, which are, you have to really know what you're doing.

Yeah.

And be able to like provide calculation or provide some evidence that you've stepped it through kind of in an engineering manner to prove that you didn't just stand there on site one day and go, I would just give that a go, she'll be right, we'll call it a performance solution.

That's not how Yeah, I suppose the calculations is the hard. So a lot of the projects we're having come up, we're just saying we want rafters or parallel trusses, um, just to prevent that, that issue. And we'll just fill the whole bay with insulation. But I want to go back.

We're doing, we're doing wall roofs. Before you ask your question, I just want to— so you talked before about, um, one of the particular products that you deliver, and that's a high-efficiency home. What are some of the other, like, homes that you build, like the— because there's a tier, like there's a hierarchy of different energy systems.

Yeah, I can talk about that. One thing I'll say before that, with building code, there is also a thing in the building code that does allow for signing off of performance solutions by a suitably qualified person, which includes a builder. Because I signed off an earthship waterproofing system in Victoria because the building surveyor was like, this will never work. blah, blah, blah. I've seen it work all over the world. And the surveyor that was engaged by the client said, oh, there's this thing in the code. I can't remember the specifics on it. It's quite clear and it does allow for, it's kind of like a catch-all, but obviously you would never sign one of them unless you were 100% confident. Because if it ever fails—

You're liable.

Yes, I am.

Are you 100% certain that that roof system works. I am too, but it ultimately is like there's still some people on the fence about it that are pretty smart.

Yeah, but, um, there's a difference between, uh, people that are willing to take calculated risks and people that are not willing to take any risk at all. And unfortunately, what we find a lot in this world is that people that are not willing to take a risk at all often get their opinions heard and followed through on. And that's why there's always room for entrepreneurs. But there's also always room and opportunity for, in any industry, for anyone to do something if they're willing to just take a bit of calculated risk.

I love that answer. I think because ultimately you have Intello and you've got a mechanical ventilation, Well, that's the other thing.

You have, when you add into it HRV.

Yeah, you're pretty safe. I wouldn't do it without an HRV. I wouldn't sign off on that part then. I feel like that just becomes, you're relying on clients.

There's a lot more moisture going up there. And I've only ever calculated with the HRV scenario. So I couldn't even tell you 'cause I've just not done it.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, going back though, 'cause it sort of ties into the conversation still, we talk about the cost of Passive Houses. And still an airtightness, I'd say that's really the only extra cost. Like you're going to pay a little bit more for some extra insulation, but I'd say the major cost is actually wrapping internally airtight. I'd say that. And then internally batten, that's where—

Well, it depends what you're comparing it to as well.

This is, this is, this is the great answer.

Yeah. So like Hamish was asking, what are the 3 standards that you build to at Enduro, which is kind of how you asked it. So we have Certified Passive House, which is very clear, everyone knows what that is. High efficiency, and then energy efficient house. So high efficient homes, we achieve between 1.5 and 3 air changes per hour.

Yep.

And for all of our levels, we put the airtightness that we'll achieve in the contract.

Even on a retrofit if you're not taking the whole building apart, or is that separate?

Yeah, so if we're doing reno additions, yeah, that they generally will fall into the energy efficient spec sometimes because there's all, there's always little steps in between. Sometimes we'll do an energy efficient one, but we'll put decentralised HRVs in the addition, for instance. So it's like an energy efficient house with a twist. But we actually have them as written standards in the business so that all of our salespeople, designers, estimators, they know like this is the baseline for this standard that we need to include and we need to design for and all of that.

So you're design and construct as well?

Yes.

Why?

Um, you could just say it as it is. Back to the beginning. So I started the business, uh, with a really strong intention to work with architects. And just work with architects, build great homes, build energy-efficient homes. Then I started to grow the business, started to find that I was sending a lot of work to architects. They were occasionally losing those clients for me, and then they weren't keeping up with the workload I was sending them. So we had a couple of more straightforward jobs come through. And I designed them and quickly worked out that I love the idea of designing, but it's not my skillset. And started to see that one benefit was the design came in on the client's budget. It moved through the process from design to costing to approvals to contract really smoothly. And the client paid a lot less To get exactly what they wanted in terms of design fees.

So you're saying architects don't design to budget?

I'm saying that they miss more often than they hit.

Fuck that, you poker player.

And the thing is though, I'm not saying anything that I haven't said directly to architects. And often it's in the same conversation as I say, I would love to work with you and I want, Like, oh, I want to help you look good.

Yeah.

But you have to take on our advice. And there are architects that we do work with. So we design and build, but there are, there's 2 architects in Adelaide that we will work with.

Yeah.

Because they don't just pay lip service to collaboration, they actually do it. And to the point where I'll go down to their office and sit there drafting on their computers. with them working in their Revit file to get the details nutted out. So that's awesome.

I think that's— yeah, I love that it's just not lip service collaboration, because it is. That's the thing.

Yep.

Oh yeah, yeah, it's actually a very common thing.

It's easy to use all the words. It's like, um, I'm an energy-efficient builder. Like, cool, so do you put airtightness in your contracts? Oh no, no, I can't do that. Well, do you use double glazing? Sometimes. Do you use thermally broken windows? Oh no, they're too expensive.

How do you use modeling to optimize your buildings?

Oh, check out the kitchen design. How cool is it?

Yes. So there's, yeah, I did, I haven't posted it yet, but we had a situation just before Easter in a Passive House. Not that it really matters, but it was a Passive House. that we handed over, they are on a rural property, so their water comes from a tank and it's got to get pumped.

Yeah.

The pump's brand new, been used for maybe 2 weeks before we handed over, and the pump stopped working. And so we rang the pump supplier and like, you know, got a problem with the pump. They're like, oh, you just take it off, bring it back to us, we'll have a look at it and we'll fix it up and then we'll get it back to you. like, how long is that going to take? Oh, a couple of weeks. Like, well, we can't— no, they're living in the house. Oh well, that's what you got to do. So my idea of customer service—

Yeah, it's not that.

Is that we went off and bought another pump. We went down, took the dodgy pump off, put the brand new one on, and we're off getting that one fixed. And when it's done, they'll get that pump back and And then we'll take the pump that we bought away and that'll sit in the shed until that happens again.

Yeah.

Because I'm sure it'll happen again. And that meant that that client was without water for about 30 minutes while we switched it all over. And what I know is I hear stories where some builders would just go, okay, well, no worries, sorry you're without water. You'll be fine.

Yeah.

And not care about it.

And then they blame, and then they blame, and then they blame that Passive House doesn't work, but which is the case of the water pump has nothing to do with the Passive House element.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's a— why wouldn't they? I just don't understand why they go, yeah, hey, we'll bring you out another one, just change it over and we'll take the old one back.

Yeah, we'll be there, we'll be there on this date with a new pump and we'll take the other one away.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We're just giving you one.

It's so simple because Because are you going to buy a pump from these guys again?

No, they're done. And that's one thing that like our really good trades, they know that, you know, if they do good work, charge a fair price, don't let us down.

It's money for jam.

They have an income for life from us. And the ones that just don't care about it, and it's always swings and roundabouts. I'm sure there are days where our trades cop it and maybe don't make as much off a job that they thought they would. But then there's probably other days where they have an absolute dream run and they're like, oh, I allowed that to take 20 hours and it took me 18. I'm gonna get a little win. So it's always swings and roundabouts.

Are you putting HRVs in all of your buildings?

Not quite, but it's, the percentage is jumping up a lot as we We've worked out lots of different ways to do it that are economical. And I've worked really hard on educating my team on how to talk about these things better so that clients feel a lot more or have a lot more understanding of what they're about to spend money on and how it benefits them.

This is a good topic because people, sales. And I don't think we ever really talk about, we talk about marketing of Passive House and high performance, whatever you want to call it. But sales is a whole different thing because I constantly get on social media, kids reach out. I shouldn't say kids, people. And they're like, oh, I can't convince the client to use the Proclima membrane. I'm like, just don't tell them. Like, do we need to tell them they're getting an HRV?

Make it a standard.

Like, do we need to talk to just be like, hey, do you want clean, fresh air?

Yes.

Okay, we put one in. Do you want it? No. Okay, we won't put one in.

Yeah.

Is it really? Do we just overcomplicate it?

Yeah, I've definitely done that journey where I've talked too much to clients about the technical stuff.

We all do though.

And—

I actually think that's the biggest failing in marketing of high performance and Passive House.

Yeah.

We get excited about that shit, but I'd say that if you, say if you wanna build 100 Passive Houses in a year, if you got stuck in the weeds and started talking about all the data—

Yeah, you don't have time to do it.

We don't have time to do it. And people probably don't give a shit either.

Yeah.

So they just want to know they're comfortable and they want the emotion of the health and comfort. Like, so I live in one.

I've come—

did you know that, Hamish?

I did.

So I've come, so I've left this morning, this like, I left the house about 4:30 this morning to get the flight here. Outside was 8 degrees, 10 degrees. I had no idea because you walk out and then We come here, we're in the airport, it's nice and warm. Then you like, we're in a Passive House now and the level of comfort is just like, cool, I'm so much happier again in here. I can't, you can't describe it. It's weird.

It's—

So just an observation, when we came in here, no one living in here. Yeah. So I actually, I walked in, I'm like, okay, cool, it's nice in here.

Yeah.

But as we've been in here, this is probably how a Passive House works. As we've been in here, the temperature's actually risen a little bit.

Yeah, we're moving around.

As we're in here and we're existing. and all that kind of stuff.

Yep.

Um, so like the 30 people that are coming tonight, that's like running the 3-kilowatt split system on a heater. That's exactly what it's going to be like, 30 people in a house.

Yeah, the house, the, the house does warm up when we have a big group in here.

It's surprising how quick too, hey?

And any, any house does that. It's not like it magically occurs in Passive Houses. The difference is that the heat doesn't dissipate.

So it stays in the house.

Yeah.

We should track it. We should actually open all the windows and doors. Have you got a sensor in here and see how long it takes people to get up?

We do. Yeah, it's just behind the chair.

You can see how quickly it actually will hit temperature again. I, again, but you don't— what for? Like, what's— we're not gonna— that doesn't sell to a client.

Because there's absolutely nothing planned in any of our conversations. If you're watching this video right now, And if you're looking at me and Jackson, there's a rammed earth wall behind us.

Yes.

Now, is that architectural feature? Is it thermal mass? Is it— how are you selling this thing?

I'm pleased you asked. There you go. Yeah.

Jackson's got a rammed earth company now.

A lot of our homes end up with rammed earth in them. Yeah.

I've been to a few now. You took me on a tour.

I love it.

Yeah.

So for this house, it's serving 2 purposes, both of which you listed off already. Looks nice. It's a piece of art on its own. Yeah, it's beautiful.

It's very red. Like, I haven't seen it this red through the lines.

Yeah, well, it just depends where you— what quarry you come from or how much oxide you put in.

Yeah.

Okay. And The other purpose that it serves is that it's a temperature regulator.

Yep.

So lots of people will go, oh, I'm gonna put thermal mass in, and my next question is always, do you want a battery or a regulator? And they're like, what are you talking about, car parts? And I'm like, no, no, rammed earth takes an enormous amount of heat to heat it up, or an enormous amount of cool exposure to cool it down. Because of the structure of it, there's all— like, you can see that there's solid bits and really open bits.

Yeah.

And so it's containing bits of air in between the mass, and what that means is it stays at a pretty stable temperature. And putting it in the 2-story part means that we get that vertical airflow past it.

Okay.

I came across all of that a few years ago when someone sent me— one of the round earth guys we use sent me a study that they did in Western Australia on the performance of round earth in houses.

Yeah.

And they had temperature sensors at all different depths of the wall, and like a wall exposed to direct sun, the surface warmed up, but once you were in 20mm It was back to 18 degrees, and by the middle it was 16, and then—

Wow.

Yeah.

Does that, does that slowly make its way through the whole wall? Like over time?

Well, no, it just— it— in, in that particular study, um, they, they found that it hit that peak temperature and didn't, didn't really just keep heating.

Do you think this house would perform differently if you didn't have The rammed earth here?

Yeah. Yeah. I think it would be a little bit hotter in summer. And that's, that's the other thing about Passive House is you have to work out the performance of the house before you build it. And it also helps you in costing. So with this house, it's got all of this glass facing east because when it's not raining, there's a great view out there.

And no blinds.

No. So, and there's a, there's a whole costing reason for that that we were able to vet out in the Passive House costing and design process.

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So we— with this design in winter, it has quite a low heating demand.

Yeah.

Do you know off the top of your head what it is?

I think it's 12.

That's pretty good.

Yeah, it's in the book downstairs, have a look later. Um, and but we were right on the, right on the limit with cooling.

Yeah.

And we looked at doing shading over these east-facing windows, and at the point in time that we were looking at that, we'd already costed the house, and included in the cost was 6 kilowatts of solar, And the air conditioning system, the single split system.

You've just got the one in here?

Just one.

Wow.

Yeah, it does the whole house. And—

The 5 kilowatt?

7.

Yeah. Okay.

And I think if you had to do this whole house as like a normal house, you'd put in like an 18 or a 20.

Oh, and not only that, you'd be using it the whole time to fight against the outside temperature.

Yeah, so then we looked at shading. So we were like, okay, we can spend another $30-odd grand and put shading in that would have to be retractable, hence the increased cost of doing it. Because if it was permanent, then our winter heating demand went over the threshold.

Yeah.

And we worked out that we actually were gonna be producing enough solar energy in summer to just run the air conditioner, still be putting power back into the grid, and avoid spending the extra money. So sometimes building a Passive House can actually save you going down the solar passive principles road and building a whole bunch of stuff you don't actually need.

This is a good one.

But also still all of that and still getting a certified building.

Yes, I'd, I'd almost say as well, if you're putting hydronic in your brand new house It'd be cheaper to build a Passive House just if you had to run with hydronic heating. Like, you're going to spend $50 grand on hydronic heating?

$25.

Really?

Yeah.

I haven't done it for years.

I'm only familiar with that because that's, that's what the hydronic's costing in our house. We're doing a certified Passive House, but it's, um—

So why'd you put hydronic in? Because it's my next question. You are, you're building your own house.

The negotiation thing. So I've negotiated out a fireplace.

Is this a negotiation with your wife?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I can guarantee you, you would never turn that on.

No. And I, I feel the same way because this house doesn't have hydronic heating.

Have you, have you started building it?

No, we're demolishing it in 2 weeks.

So have you got a polished concrete slab?

No, this is the other thing. We've got, we've got timber going over the top. But, and, you know, with overslab insulation? Yeah, underslab.

Underslab, and then timber.

So, so if— well, because— so this is really good because last night we came home at about 7 o'clock, Nicole, myself, and Noah. We left the front— it was— it's been cold, like, in Melbourne the last few days. The house, I've been playing with it. I actually didn't realize my HRV was still set to cooling mode, so it got down to 19 degrees yesterday. We left the front.

You poor thing.

I know. So we left the front blind open. So we let them— I don't know.

Do you wanna know how cold mine was this morning?

So by the time—

It would've been 8 degrees.

So by the time I put a pot of water on to heat some eggs up for Noah, it lifted a degree. But the— 'cause I got a sensor right next to around that area. But what we noticed is we left the front blind open to get the north light in. Nicole's like, oh, Charlie, our dog's been— must've been laying here. It's all nice and warm here. And she's like, oh, it's warm here too. Oh, it's warm here too. The slab is honestly, and I've been in houses with hydronic heating on the floor, it's the same. It honestly, as a decoupled slab, I reckon we sit very similar on a temperature when it actually holds. Haven't lived there in winter, that's why I say I don't think you'll ever turn it on.

Yeah. So.

But again, this is a negotiation, part of negotiation.

Absolutely. And you know, put your board, put the wood fire in.

Building this house has been a massive, or designing it, Are you designing it for yourself too, or have you got someone, an architect?

No. So Carly, my wife, and I worked out years ago that it's always good for us to use a third party because none of my ideas get accepted off the bat.

Sounds like this is like the—

It's like, I don't know what I'm doing. I have no idea what I'm doing.

So you're not bringing the in-house, you're not bringing your in-house design team to design your home?

No, our in-house design team designed our house.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

And they worked with Carly and I and You're a client. We got treated like a client and same with building it because I'm too busy running the businesses to be supervising the build.

Have you found many inefficiencies? Like, why are we doing that? Why are we doing that? Or you're not looking at it that way?

I learned a few things about our sales process that from the outside when I created it, I thought were great. But then from the inside I went, oh, we're gonna tweak that a little. So there were no world-beating changes, Yeah. What I have learned along the way is I have this, it's almost like a burden of knowledge and understanding about how the house will work by not only by just knowing how a design's gonna work because you get good at looking at a set of plans and going, that's not gonna work, that's gonna work great, that room's gonna be hot. Like you guys would be able to, I'd give you a set of plans, if I gave you my house plans, you'll identify the 3 major issues, and then I'll tell you how we overcame them. But you'd do it in the first 2 minutes looking at the plans, whereas Carly is focused on the finishes and all of these sorts of things and being concerned about being cold.

Oh, you won't be cold, you'll actually overheat. I know, sometimes too warm.

Yeah, but I, I understand where Carly's coming from because I've actually been to Jackson's house and I know where Sorry, the old one. And I know where it is and I can understand why, how that— I've never lived in it.

And it was a nice day when you were there too.

It was a nice day, but knowing the Adelaide Hills and knowing how cold it can get, I'd understand.

I'd put a wood fire heater in before we do it. I'd actually put the wood fire in before the hydronic.

I've got this written down. So can I ask why? Because I would've done the same thing. I would've put a fireplace in if it was one or the other. One, fireplace is going to be cheaper.

Yeah, and there's ambience around it.

I, I don't know. And again, I'll probably, um, unfortunately for me with this decision, I know where you live and I know the context of where this place is.

Yeah.

And having a fire there in my mind makes more sense.

This is also crazy because I feel like I'm in your shoes now, having gone through this with Nicole, that I know the conversations you're going to have.

And but I mean, they're all had now. Like, you know, we're up to the demo of the house bit.

But how did you land on the hydronic?

Because we're gonna live there until I'm at least 100.

Yep. At least 100.

Yeah. I'm gonna live till I'm 120.

Oh wait, is the age conversation biohacking?

Is that what you're doing?

No, no.

Yeah.

Well, I tell everyone I'm gonna work until I'm 110, then Carly and I'll have 10 good years and then—

Be funny if you're talking in 70 years.

She doesn't see I don't see the humor in it so much, but, um, this is forever what I do. So yeah, so it's a forever house, and I don't want to be cutting wood or buying wood and stacking it and sorting it and lighting the fire. I don't want to be doing that.

Yeah, okay.

And I'd barely have time for that now, let alone—

Okay, so, so that's the rationale for not putting a fireplace in?

Yeah.

Don't you have 4 kids?

Yeah, but—

Don't you have a servant to kids?

I do.

Haven't you got a servant to kids?

Actually, trying to get my son last night to set the fucking table was like, dude, just put the plates there and put— grab the plates out of there and put them on the table. It's like a 2-second job.

So what other things did you have to compromise on? Um, could you care about the looks?

I care about— I care about making sure that the house looks good because I'll be judged on it as a builder. I know that feeling. And Carly, you know, one good thing there is that Carly's very focused on how things look and, you know, wanting everything to be nice.

Have you got interior design in-house as well?

So for this house, we used an external interior designer. That came about purely because our guys were so under the pump.

Yeah, okay.

That we just got to a point where I was like, to keep this moving, and the priority is always the paying clients, not me. So yeah, we went to an external designer.

And it's good to see how you probably picked up some stuff from that as well, because you're like, oh, we haven't looked at these materials, or have we even thought about that?

It's a good way to, yeah, learn some things.

Yeah. Have you gone crazy on the health aspect internally for the future? Like, have you Because I know when we did ours, I was not stopped. Passive House wasn't— that was a start because we got so many things inside.

Yep.

Have you gone further on that?

Yeah, so we've got— there's all the basic compliance things now of zero thresholds and the like.

Yeah.

We're putting a lift in because it's a 3-storey house. All of the hallways are wide and like over 1.2.

Yep.

The doors are 920s. So we've done all of the things to make the house really accessible over its life.

Yep.

My big focus beyond things like EMF and material choice, but which most, most things now are low VOC anyway, was actually flammability.

Really?

Yeah. Like we're sitting on a couch that would ignite in In a heartbeat. And that rug is synthetic as well. You're sitting on a synthetic chair. And there's actually a lot of things that go into houses now that are not great for fire safety.

Like what? What else? Is it the furnishing or actually the home?

Well, there's like the, The furnishings is one of the key ones. Rugs and carpets that are all synthetic. A lot of cheaper cabinetry for some reason is really flammable. And then of course electronic things that light up because they're made out of plastics, which are petrochemical products. And it all started when I watched a video on LinkedIn Where they had 2 houses. One was furnished like the '50s.

Another video they were talking about.

And the other one was furnished with modern stuff and it reached, I think they call it flashover, in a very, like under 30 seconds. Whereas the one from the '50s, you could still wander around and hose things down.

But on the flip side of that though, is you have nothing that's like igniting in a Passive House because it's generally all electric.

Yeah, but he's got 4 kids.

Well, running around with a lighter either.

Maybe.

Or a blowtorch.

I don't know.

Maybe.

You are right. You, you— I don't know the stats, but I imagine that a lot of house fires now are caused by electrical faults or burning candles or—

Can I ask, um, and circles back to something I've got written here, part of the construction of your home, or I don't know, There is some structure that's going to be CLT.

The whole thing.

The whole thing CLT?

Yeah.

So exposed?

Is—

no.

So, but, but also, but also I want to, I want to try and unpack this CLT thing because we've looked at CLT a bunch of times and it never stacked up from a cost point of view.

Yep.

And because I'm assuming you're going to be—

You're paying for it.

110mm thick CLT. 120. All right, so then how much wood fibre on the outside of that, or rockwool?

So yeah, we're doing, we're doing basrock on the outside. Oh yeah, basrock.

Yeah.

And this is rendered finish. Yeah, so 100mm of basrock.

And then what is basrock? Just rockwool equivalent, like stonewool?

Rockwool, and then you render it.

Yeah, it's like a stonewool.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, same, same thing.

So there's an R2.5 externally then?

Yes. Yeah. The reason that we did CLT on this house is we've got, the upper level is bigger than the lower level.

Yeah, okay.

So there's only the 2 ends of the house, the walls are sheer walls, they go all the way up the whole way, but the front and back overhangs.

Yep.

So it meant that we had a lot of cantilevers to deal with, and that meant a lot of steel structure. And, and it's, it's got the, it's like a square shape with the really fine like eyebrow look.

Yep.

Yeah. And trying to—

Sounds like you've got a really low pitch roof here too, Jackson.

Yep. So I've done a whole bunch of things that people are like, what is— How low is it?

Is it 1.5?

No, 5.

Oh, okay.

There's method to my madness.

Okay. I have absolutely no doubt that every decision that you've made has a calculated reason behind it.

Yeah.

This is why I'm interested.

Constant knowledge.

Yeah, yeah.

So, um, so yeah, when I looked at how we make all those cantilevers work, it meant a lot of steel.

Yep.

And then just the detailing complexity went—

Yeah, okay.

And, and lots of need for a lot of foam, and we're in a bushfire-prone area, we're at the top top of a hill. There's a whole like 7 acres of forest below us.

What's your bow level there?

It's bow 19 where the house is. Yeah, but you've obviously seen like down from us is. So the, um, there was a big importance on avoiding things like foam on the outside of the building, and CLT ticked the box for the cantilevers. Because it's basically like using tilt-up concrete. Yeah. And made the structure a lot easier to just fix insulation to the entire outside of it.

But also racking forces. If you're on the top of a wind— of a hill, like, you're gonna get some pretty high winds.

Yeah. So, and that's been something that I've really impressed on the engineers. And as I've gone through detailing, there's a few few details on the windward side of the house. Yeah. That everyone's like, fuck, that's a bit overkill. You haven't lived here when it's sideways rain.

Yeah.

It's, yeah.

What windows?

Logic House.

Have you been there?

So it was my first Logic House experience.

Did you, have you had the meeting yet?

Yeah. Yeah.

It's intense, isn't it?

It's all done. They're on the boat.

Did you have to, did you have to have a nap after it? Were you just like, whoa, that's intense.

It was a lot.

I'm just imagining a conversation with Jackson and Harley. Like, I'd love to be a fly on the wall there.

Like just Details. I like Harley. Harley's really organized.

Their method is orderly.

Yeah.

And they'll arrive the day that they tell you, 26 weeks in advance.

Yeah. Well, that's good to know.

They literally— I have them in my house.

Unreal.

Where are you getting the CLT from?

Next Timber, Timberlink in Mount Gambier. Yep. So they, yeah, they made the most sense because they're local.

Yep.

They do a lot of CLT to Victoria from there. And it's been a pretty good process with them as well.

So any exposed CLT anywhere?

No.

Not even on like a ceiling? Is this a touching point for you? Like you really wanted to expose it? Is this one of the things you had to give up on?

No, it wasn't. So when we moved into the house that we're living in now, which Hamish has briefly walked through, it's all pine matchboard everywhere.

I see you've had that.

And I just couldn't— I get that lots of people really love it. Yeah. And that's great. It's good on them. But it's not my, not my bag.

Are you having, like, are you having any timber inside or is it like white walls? Like, what does it look like?

So this is where, you know, I've accepted what is desired. So it's mainly gonna be white walls with, there's bits of stone, feature stone through it. And there's a bit of money going into the cabinetry to finish the house off. And I'm a big proponent for cabinetry does really, it really finishes the house off. It's worth spending money on. It does, yeah, totally. You know, if you're gonna spend money on areas of the house, spend it on the thermal envelope and cabinetry and everything else.

Joinery is generally about 10 to 15% of a project cost on average, I would say.

You must have a really cheap cabinetmaker. We gotta, I gotta get his number.

No, but on like the average client, right? Not, not your place. If you took the average client, would you say it's 10?

Well, I'm talking about our average client.

Oh yeah, geez, you put a lot in then. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, wow.

What's the build time?

The build time in the way that we've scheduled it is currently 10 months.

Wow.

I actually think we're going to do it a lot quicker than that because one of the X factors for us is how quickly we'll get the CLT up. I think we're going to get the CLT up in about 2 weeks. And everyone else is like, no, it's going to take a month, it's going to take 6 weeks. I'm like, that's how long it takes to frame it.

Yeah.

It'll be— yeah. So that— the other, the other thing too, that, um, the— my construction manager and the site manager that's running the job, I've got them— they did the first schedule and it was about 12 and And we pulled it back in a few spots. And then I said, once that CLT's up, we can start fit out inside while you are doing baserock and rendering and all of that stuff. And so I said, you can have work going on 2 fronts. And on that site, we've got all the parking space in the world. We've got all the dropdowns 'cause it's 5 acres. So there's no—

Store stuff.

Yeah, there's no limit on having stuff delivered early. So I'm really hoping that we'll be able to pull it ahead.

I mean, I know we probably didn't sit here talking, you know, talk about how you're going to build this thing, but I am curious about how the CLT on the roof's sitting. Is it 120 on the roof as well?

No, it's thicker than that. It's 160, I reckon.

So it's a 160 roof and you've got that at a 5-degree fall?

Yep, with, um, with Adhero on top.

Okay, that's gonna be my next question. Is the whole thing Adhero?

Yes.

Okay, so you're gonna get the structure up and then just Adhero the shit out of it?

Uh, it'll come with Adhero on, so when it arrives—

Oh wow, great, awesome.

It'll be a big blue box.

Yep, yep.

With a few bits missing.

And just tacked on.

Like on the back side of parapets and stuff that we'll then Adhero on site.

It's gonna be my next question. You're building in the Adelaide Hills and I'm I'm trying to work through this timing.

Oh, and in winter too.

Yeah, the CLT is going to be going up in—

It's going to be 12 months.

And it will— Yes, delivery 3rd of August.

Yeah, great. See, picked it. And I'm like, it's going to be raining like all get out. How are you protecting it?

It's just got a great Brand Designs episode written all over it.

Well, one of the reasons that originally we were not going to start the house until October so that we got into the dry part of the year. The reality, it's like when people say to me, oh, you know, we don't want to start in winter because like your concrete, you can't concrete in winter. I'm like, you know, they have to earn an income all year round.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, but also it doesn't rain every single day in winter.

No, no. And we're building a house that's going to be constantly drying out. Yeah.

So, and once you're, once you're locked up, it doesn't matter if it rains every day. Once the CLT's up and Membrane, like you're set.

Yeah.

No, that— yeah, so that, that's, that's— I've got no further questions, Your Honor.

I didn't think you were going to ask me this many questions about the house.

Oh, well, I'm curious.

I thought this was going to be like a business conversation.

Well, it can be.

Well, what did you want to say about business? All right, so what's, what's something that we should have talked, like, spoken about that we didn't talk about then?

I have no idea. This is the hard thing. You guys made me fill out this form and I was a bit panicked because I didn't think Hamish was this like anal retentive.

We just pretend we are.

Did I take that Jackson messaged me on a weekend?

It's a padded text from me.

Well, on the weekend I was working at my house, he's working at his house. I get this video going, oh man, I filled this form out, what do you want to talk about? I go, all right, that's really just a formality and it's just fallback stuff.

Did you read the form?

I did, and that's where I got the CLT from, so I'm glad that you He did feel the fallout. But I'm like, dude, me and Matt are probably the most organized unorganized people you'll ever meet and we're just gonna have a chat.

So we had Jesse Clark a few weeks ago and he's like, what are we talking about? I don't know.

We'll work that part out as we go.

And so he sits there, so what are we talking about? And we're like, we don't know. We're live. And we're like, what do you want to talk about? He's like, oh shit. So let's go, let's touch on business because you do have some pretty big business aspirations. Like, what, like, at the moment, one thing that I'm trying to like nail in is my financials. It's something that like knowing my numbers, because it's all for so long it's been the back of my head and I'm just like, I know it, but it's never there for me. Like, where did you start to learn about all that sort of stuff and where did you, how did you educate yourself on those sort of things?

So way, way back, I actually, I went and started studying accounting at uni. Yeah.

Wow.

I didn't get through the degree because it got a bit boring. Yeah.

Hang on, tell me which part of accounting got boring?

It was when we got into international finance and it was starting to—

I'd find that interesting.

So I kind of come from an accounting background. I love the numbers and understanding financials. And I got really lucky when I started Enduro because I stumbled on this Association of Professional Builders. And I worked with them for the first 5 years, I reckon, of the business. And they have definitely got it dialled in with construction company financials and what's important to watch and what's not.

Do you still work with them?

Yes. So I had a few years where I went and worked with someone different. And then I've just recently started working with them again. This time around, our focus isn't about that fundamental stuff. We're talking about next steps with the business.

Scale.

Yeah. And in particular, one thing that APB are doing really, really well right now is their R&D on the use of AI. is the best of, they have a guy who's, I mean, he's the ops manager for the business, but the bulk of his role is developing AI tools and developing AI training.

Okay.

But back to the financials. So the key thing that most builders miss is what their work in progress is, which is essentially an accounting adjustment that you should be doing every month. to find out whether you actually made a profit or not because it adjusts for your actual liability for the work in front of you.

And most tools like WonderBuild have it built in now, but you should still run a separate spreadsheet, which I've learned.

Yeah, so WonderBuild will knock out the WIP.

Close enough.

I gotta be careful not to upset Hashi, but he knows that we're finding it very clunky to manage the numbers really well. So there's work going on to, I think that one thing I've learned is that I think lots of builders are happy to accept quite a bit of sloppiness with their numbers, whereas we're not.

That's my problem right now. I don't want sloppiness. And that's where I'm starting is like, where do I start?

'Cause I would want something. So I mean, obviously financials by every job, getting that WIF number, making that It's basically a manual journal entry every month, which adjusts your cost of goods sold so that you get a true figure for where you're at. And it also corrects your balance sheet.

Yeah.

So, but for profitability, it's really important. And making sure that the total value of your WIP, you should have at least that amount of money in the bank. And if you don't, you're in real strife. And I actually, I looked at buying another building company last year, maybe the year before, and he gave me his financials and I went through and calc'd his WIP based on his work while we were sitting there.

Yeah.

And I was like, oh, you're about $500 grand in the hole. He's like, what do you mean? I'm like, you're at some point in the next 12 months, you you're gonna run outta cash. And we then agreed that I wasn't gonna buy that liability. And 6 months later I was chatting with him, still chat to him. Like it was just one of those things that didn't work out. And he said, yeah, you know that comment you made about the— Yeah, you did. He said, we're trading through it, but had you not said that, I would've not known that was coming. And I was actually partially prepared. It's still hurting me.

Yeah.

So that, if you ever thought that what I said about WIP being important is not important, that story alone, and because I knew how to calc it, I did it while we were sitting there at the table. And I was probably, you know, I might have been correct, give or take $50 grand.

Yeah.

But that didn't really matter in the scheme of things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If you know that number, then you know whether you can sleep well at night or whether you need to start looking at your OpEx or look at getting more work on.

Did you learn that from your accounting background or is that from—

That was APB. The WIP thing was all APB. I knew what WIP was and I knew how it worked, but calculating it properly, I learned from APB. Would never have learned it without them.

So you've invested a fair bit of money in coaching then over the years?

Yes.

Have you found that it's worth it or?

Yes. I've had as many years where I've gone, I can't believe I'm spending all this money on coaching. It's not doing anything for me, as I've had where I've gone, I suppose I got something out of it. But then when I look back over the last 10 years and I go, the business has consistently moved in the direction that I planned for it to move in. And that is entirely down to having a second source of accountability and someone that you can talk to about the things of the business where you don't have to hold anything back.

Yeah.

Because you're paying them to be the sounding board. And in particular, working with a coach that works with other builders, they have a good knowledge base to draw on. It's like giving an AI context.

Yeah.

Like a coach that is in the industry has the context of a whole bunch of other builders that have the same problems, different problems.

Yeah.

Builders that used to have a problem, then they grew and now they've got another problem and they can see that you're going into a similar place so that you can—

They'll catch it before you know it's even a thing.

Yeah. So there's a lot of problems that I probably avoided hitting altogether purely because of coaching.

Interesting.

Yeah. But it's a big pill to swallow some months, especially when good coaches, you spend $4,500, $5,000 a month and you go, man, I could hire 2 VAs for that. Or I could have someone part-time in admin for that.

That's my brain.

Yep. And my brain goes there all the time. But here I am still going.

Still talking about it.

Still working with a coach.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and that's interesting.

Plenty of shit coaches out there too.

How do you identify a shit coach then?

That's, um, that's, that's tricky. I think one of the first things is you— I, I really notice people that are organized.

Yeah.

And that have taken the time to understand me. So they rock up at the meeting ready to talk about something, and rather than ready to sort of sit down and go, okay, so tell us what's going on.

Yeah.

If I get that, and I did have that with APB at one point. So I jumped in and did some coaching with them and that coach was a bit like that. He doesn't work there anymore. And that part of that was probably 'cause of my experience with him.

Yeah.

But he just, to give you an idea of a bad coach, He wasn't, he looked at my stuff and was like, yeah, no, you look like you're going well.

Is that reactive?

Yeah, there was no, there was no, show me the evidence that you did that.

Yeah.

Show us what you worked out. You said you wrote these procedures, let's have a look at them. And a good coach will do that and be completely unapologetic when you go, oh well, oh, a good coach will go, it's either done or it's not done. And that's how I've been coached.

He's like, there's no maybes. That's how I'm in footy, like yell at me. Tell me when I've done something wrong. I'm old school. I don't wanna be like, oh, they could try, like fuck off. Tell me that was shit, you need to be better. Like I'm okay with that. It's not personal. They're actually there to help you.

And there are other coaches around. It's just obviously for me right now, APB is top of mind.

And you should change. I feel like I've never done coaching, but for me it's something that you kind of want different coaches over different times. So you just don't get stuck in the same, the same thing.

So my last coach I started with in 2020.

Yeah.

Um, and finished up with him in, uh, it was January this year.

Yeah.

Um, and yeah, when I got to the point of saying, look, you know, I want to finish up coaching.

Yeah.

He's like, you know, I was kind of thinking that we'd hit a point where I'm, I'm not adding any new value. He said, there's other things I could do for you, but I think that you're probably ready to graduate out of working with me.

Which is good.

Which I thought was really good of him. Yeah.

I think you should put a timeline on it.

True. But I reckon it's different for every person.

Yeah, it is different for every person.

Now before we wrap up, you touched on systems and processes really quickly just before. I know you just touched on it. Now I know that you've got your, well then knowing you, you've got your business pretty dialed in from a systems point of view. How important are systems and processes in a business that wants to scale?

Similar level of importance as having blood in your body.

Nice. Just checkmate. No, I think I 100% agree with you. We've actually got, James Brown coming on tomorrow, right? Systemology.

Yep.

Uh, we've already, uh, interviewed, um, fuck, what's his name? Dave Jennings.

Yeah.

And like, we're, we're actually on this, uh, massive journey at the moment of completely systemizing our business.

Yeah.

And the more I get into it, the more excited I get, and the more I look myself in the mirror every morning and say, why the fuck didn't you do this 10 years ago?

Yeah.

Like, it's so important And when you think about all the things that need to happen within your business, how much easier that would be, how much clearer your head would be, is if all you needed to do was go in, look at your diary and go, I'm doing these 3 things today. Oh yeah, I know where to find that system.

Yeah. And lots of people talk about it. You're right.

That camera's just going off for some reason. It's all right.

What lots of people say Lots of business coaches say, oh, it's about freeing the founder, put systems in and free the founder. I actually look at it from the other way.

Yeah.

Which is when you hire your team and you induct them into what the systems and processes are and what the policies are, they actually, they know where they stand and they know what to do and they know how to do stuff. And they actually enjoy work more because they're not standing there going, Oh shit, how do I do this?

Let's finish this off. We have a segment called the Mindful Moment sponsored by MEGT, Australia's leading apprenticeship experts. Um, Hamish's camera's died, so he can still talk. Uh, so one thing that I've noticed—

Probably better that my camera's off, then I won't distract everybody with my good looks.

Yeah, so you got a haircut as well for Adelaide. Anyway, I have an issue with apprentices going and buying these really expensive cars. spending $70,000 on a brand new Hilux as a second-year apprentice.

Ranger.

Ranger, whatever, any car. Like, I think it's a waste of money personally. I think if you're a young kid starting an apprenticeship, go buy an appropriate car for what you need. Don't go buy one of those Holden SSs that the tub on the back. Go get a van, go get something you can actually store all your tools that's also gonna be cost-effective to run. but is going to work for you. Now I respect that as a young tradie that you're also probably out and about on weekend and doing things in your personal car also becomes your work car, but don't waste your money on a huge car and an expensive car.

If I had a first, second year apprentice and they rocked up in a van and it could be like a 2010 HiAce van.

Perfect.

And it was decked out, I would have so much more respect for them than if they rocked up in a brand new Ranger?

I'd probably just, I just don't understand it. It just seems to me like just such a waste. It's a classic young kid in that sort of fictitious Instagram, look how good I am with my brand new. Yeah, yeah.

And then I'll get Jackson's take on this too. Like they might come back and say, yeah, well it's a tax deduction.

It's not a tax deduction as an apprentice.

It's only a tax deduction if you're an employee.

It's more than your yearly wage, so therefore it's not a tax deduction.

Yeah. You can look at it different ways, right? You could say they now have a car payment, so they're definitely going to keep rocking up at work. You could also say they've got a reliable car, but there's plenty of scope for older reliable cars. I think it's what you're talking about is a generational thing. That's hard to— I don't know. Yeah, I agree actually. I agree with everything that you said, but it is something that I work on with my kids a lot, is that it's okay not to have everything the moment that you want it. And, um, and that's, that's always made more difficult because, you know, they're living in this place where building a house and, you know, we drive nice cars and all these things. And, but it actually brings it home to me to make sure that like my kids see me fixing all of my old stuff and keeping it going.

Yeah.

And like the old truck that I bought that I keep on the road by hook or by crook. And, um, and that, that helps them to go, Ah, so yes, you can have nice stuff, but pick your nice stuff and have—

And look after it.

Have things that you— yeah, everything else you look after. But it's also too, I would never quickly judge an apprentice if they rocked up in a brand new car because they might have had their parent in their ear saying, oh, now you've got a job, get a new car. And it might not have been them. Or it might have been their mates.

Thanks for challenging us there, Jackson. I do appreciate that.

I actually agree with it.

Yeah.

Anyway, Jackson, thanks for coming on today.

All right.

What's the best way for people to get onto you?

The Enduro Builders Instagram.

Yep.

Which is easy to find. Climber Shore, which is Climber Shore SA.

Yep.

On Instagram.

That's for all the Pro Climber products if you're in SA.

Yes, yeah. And we sell, Some cavity closers that we make ourselves, which are bushfire compliant, good in the corrosion zone.

Yeah, amazing. Awesome.

Thanks for coming on.

Thanks for letting us record in your display home.

My pleasure.

Thank you. Yeah, also, if you are listening and you're in South Australia, how can they come and have a look at this home?

The easiest thing to do is book a tour through the website. Yeah. And we are So we are looking at, we've got some additional staff coming back from mat leave soon, and we are looking at opening it on the weekends when she's back.

Cool.

So yeah.

Awesome. Thanks.

Thank you.

Cheers.