582. "I can’t picture the next phase of my business. Where do I go from here?" | Coaching Session

You're so talented and your stuff looks so good and people are telling you what they want from you. But it sounds to me like there's this fear and this overthinking of if I let it grow, I don't know how I'm gonna do it. So maybe I just stay safe and don't grow it.

Hi, I'm Jacqueline Snyder and this is.

The Product Boss podcast.

I've helped launch and grow thousands of product based businesses, even one of my own. And over the last 20 years, I've seen behind the scenes of businesses just like yours. Whether they are makers, manufacturers, artists, or food and beverage businesses. I have spent so many hours studying it all. I've discovered what makes them successful, what are mistakes they could avoid, how did they turn an idea into successful business?

And what are strategies they have used.

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Let's do this. Hey product bosses.

So today's coaching session is about something.

I see come up all the time.

When you're the person creating your product, how do you scale without creating an endless amount of work for yourself? That's just one of the problems I'm tackling with Suzanne, who sells unique ceramics to high end customers. She's currently busy working with local restaurants and collaborating with other artists, but she wants to start focusing on getting in front of her customers directly. What's her path to finding the right customers and and getting her brand out there? Let's dive in and find out.

Suzanne, really excited to work with you today and to dig in in this coaching call with you and your ceramics business, but tell me a little bit about it.

So I make ceramics, mostly dinnerware serving pieces. I would say for someone who wants something a little bit different, when I mean is I've always been anti trend but also minimalist. And I would say if I was going to describe like my ideal client, she'd be someone in probably in her 40s, but her dream home would probably be just like anything in Dwell magazine, like clean lines and natural materials. Then she needs my pieces to be kind of this organic. The imperfectly shaped pieces that I make, they kind of add life to that style. That's you Know how I picture her in my mind?

It says on your website, perfectly odd dishes you've been searching for. But it's a really interesting thing where you're like, huh, you know, what is that? But it also describes it so well.

Do you think so? Because I actually just changed it to that. I have worked on my whole, you know, ideal client avatar, if you will, so many times, and I just did it again. And so, yeah, you like the perfectly odd.

I mean, I think for the words that you were trying to come out with, I think that it brought it up. And then when I look at the pictures, I'm like, oh, yeah, now, are there better words that we can come up with? Absolutely. We can think about it and test and try. Where are you currently selling?

Really? Just my website. And more recently I've had some local restaurants reach out to me. So I've been working for the start of this year on a couple really large orders locally. I was really focusing on Instagram in the past and just getting email subscribers and then, you know, emailing regularly and getting sales through my website that way. But I feel like I'm ready for kind of a different path this year. And then in the meantime, having these restaurant orders, you know, that's been a lot of work for me to do, to kind of have. So I guess while I'm just. I already know what I'm making for the restaurants, I'm kind of thinking about this next direction, the strategy, like, what's going to make the most sense for the rest of the year?

So success leaves clues.

So I want you to just see that while your Instagram is beautiful, yes, it's hard to grow organically on Instagram. You know, our program, sos Standout society, Like, that's one of the things I know that people struggle with is like, how do we get in front of more customers? And, well, Multi Stream Machine teaches you how to do that using other channels. It's. I know a lot of people want to grow it. So thinking about both these programs and what they hold, but what you're telling me, if we just talk about the sales perspective of it, is that restaurants are buying from you and they're buying wholesale, right? Yes. Is that what they're paying, like, wholesale prices? And do you have sets or minimums that you're asking them to buy or you're just kind of letting them pick what they want?

No, I've really only had a handful of restaurants kind of learn about my work. Like, so I don't have anything put together for the restaurants, per se, it's just. I just came up with a price. And, you know, people reached out to me and asked me. And so I just thought it through and did it. And then this year, it just all kind of happened at once. I think more people had learned about me. And then two new local restaurants are opening up. And so same thing. I'm just giving them wholesale prices. I didn't say minimum orders because they're really large orders. So I don't know. I don't have a.

Well, see, even if you don't have a minimum and they're large orders, I'd love for you to sell in sets, if possible. Like, sets in the way of like. Or, like, buy the dozen. So instead of them saying, I want 28 of something, can you just push them to dozens at a time so that the work that you do, you build in dozens? And I don't know what they're buying. I don't know if they're buying six pieces, eight pieces, like, 24. What are you seeing them by?

So the first order this year, it was so clear to me because they just. What I put in front of them. Like, I just went to these restaurant owners and showed them what I had. I let them take them home, actually, for a week to, like, use them. And it came back with, all right, these are our four favorites. Speaking of dozens, they wanted 24 pieces each of one plate. This bowl, that bowl, and a small plate. And so. So that order's done. The restaurant I'm working for now, his stuff is, I would say. I don't mean to say more specialized, but there's something very unique about this chef's food. And so he really wants even some custom pieces. Like, this piece has to go with this exact shape. So I actually finally made myself charge a design fee. Cause I hadn't been doing that in the past.

Well, if you charge the right prices, it'll be worth it, right? And people who really want something and that have the money, they will say yes or no to it. Then when you say you started charging a design fee, was it a significant design fee, or was it like a hundred bucks?

So I charged him 150 for just three, like, iterations. And that was even hard for me to do in the past. I didn't charge any design fee. I know this now. Cause I've done it multiple times. Roy said, yeah, I think, yeah, that shouldn't be too hard to make. And then once you start, it's just, oh, wait, how do I figure out this? How Do I figure out that? So I at least charged that. And I also said up to three slight changes basically in the piece. Like, I'll make it this way, make it that way, and then if we go farther than that, then I'm going to need to.

So when I've. I would develop clothing in Los Angeles, and so they would be called samples, right? So every iteration was a sample. And we'd have to, you know, send it out and go through the whole process and get the product back. It wasn't in my hands. I wasn't cutting and sewing all the garments. But what I will say to you is that crafting this, putting it in the kiln, working on it. Well, I would Pay T shirts, $150 to see a T shirt sampled, not paying service for it. So really what I want you to start to think about is what is your time worth? You said that one of your biggest struggles is that you'd like to, you know, get your company to $5,000 a month. You want to start to build a business that has revenue, right? So some of this has to be like, you're so talented and the stuff you make is so beautiful. So the two places we know is that one, not enough people know you exist. So we'll get into that part. The second part is this is a really cool part of your business because you are so high level in design that it makes sense. So if someone wants to come to you for any sort of customization, I want you to create a package that is something that you're like, all right, it will cost me, you know, for the three iterations, let's say, per style, because you're gonna have to design it. It holds space in your mind, right? And then the meetings you take with them are hours of your time. So everything you say yes to, you're saying no to something else. So every time you go meet with him or go through an iteration and go back and forth, it's awesome to be collaborative. But that means that same hour, you're not working on whatever else you were planning on working on in your business. So, you know, is it $500 per design development? Where you're going through design development, it comes with one iteration, and then they pay for each additional one. Like $150. You set a time amount. I know it sounds scary to hear this number, but if I had the money. And they're paying interior designers and custom people to build out their restaurants to have a very certain thing. So if they want the privilege of working with an artist like you to craft something to go with the way his meals are placed, then you're cheap. Like, I can't even. There's like apps called Yardzen where you can get your yard designed virtually. And I think their base package is $500 for a virtual designer. And if you ever work with an interior designer, they're very expensive. So you're crafting and creating art pieces that he's already used to paying people. So whatever you're comfortable with as you move forward into this realm, there's a fee to do custom, and then there's a fee for each iteration, and it's up to a certain amount around. So 150 is way undercharging for you. I would have done, you know, $500 per style. So if you were doing three customs with him, it's $1,500. Like that to me, is cheap to then get something crafted by you to put in a restaurant that perhaps I want to get a Michelin star on. I don't know. I don't know the kind of restaurant, but chefs are aspiring for that. Especially a chef that's working so closely with you on plates.

Okay, what are your thoughts?

I mean, I totally hear what you're saying, and if this, you know, situation comes up again, I'll definitely think through what you're saying. I just being in the city where I'm located, which isn't a huge city, it's a small city. I'm not sure how many, you know, restaurant orders I'll be getting. We'll see if more restaurants keep coming back to me.

Well, you're not thinking big enough. It doesn't have to be your town.

So I'll tell you my hold up for out of town things, because I did a while ago have a restaurant in Virginia contact me, like maybe two years ago, where actually they're friends with these local ones. That's how these local ones found me, because they were like, we're looking for ceramics. He's like, you have them right in your town. But I was the shipping, the packing and the shipping. I know, but the. The packing, it's. I spend so much time packing orders.

But here's the deal. If you're making money, if your business starts to make money, my goal for you is you're no longer packing your orders. So we know that there's the two places that product people bottleneck are the making and then the fulfillment. So what would it look like if you could right now, with the current state of your business, stay on the front end of the design development, like the working with the product. And you had someone that came to you. The goal is that your business starts to grow. And so they come two, three times a week for three, four hours a day. And that's their whole job is like, packing and fulfilling. So I know you can't see it yet, but I want you to know there's a solution to every problem. So don't block yourself off, because what's happening is most restaurants aren't going to all want the same plates because then they're going to look alike, especially if it's a small town. So you probably are at your max in your town. But they have friends that are in the industry. They're gonna come visit. They're gonna. These are amazing. Or they know people and they're gonna be like, contact Suzanne. And so don't say no to it. But if you charge the right amount, if you have minimums, if all of a sudden you're making $10,000, 15,000, $20,000 a session, you can go hire somebody for, let's say, $15 an hour. I don't know. I'm gonna round up to $20 an hour. And you're paying somebody $100 a day to pack for you, but you got a $10,000 order. Yes. All day, every day. The math. Maths, you know.

Yeah, it's true. It's true that I haven't really let myself think. I mean, I've thought about those things, but it's the whole, you know, having my studio in my house, like, I do, and then the thought of, like, would I have someone coming into my house to do that? And I know you're right. It's all kind of little blocks of just where I'm at.

One thing that keeps businesses from growing is that we as operators get stuck in thinking at the level we're currently at. You want more orders, and that's why you're getting coaching. You want to see your business grow, but at the same time, you're imagining that to 10x, your business is going to 10x the time and effort it takes to get there. It's just not true. You can hire, you can outsource. You can find ways to do more work in less time as you scale and grow your business. Don't hold yourself back by thinking small. You have to think big in order to grow.

Are you an overthinker? Yeah. Would you say you overthink?

You know, definitely. I mean, I would say I'm a blend of, you Know sometimes like insanely optimistic, where I think anything's possible like to the extreme without any practicality linked to it. But yes, then you know, sure. Just. I mean, we all get stuck in our lives our day to day, you know, I'm homeschooling, my kids are here. Like, am I going to have someone coming in my basement? And I would need better systems really for packing is one thing.

So one thing I'm sensing from you right now is that you're the reason you're not growing. Because it sounds like there's a lot of noise that's getting in the way of you doing the things perhaps would be the way like you're, you're doing them but like in a safe way because you're like, can't grow because I can't have anyone in my basement doing this. So I'm just gonna hold back. Or yeah, I could sell to other restaurants. But then if it gets too big, then I'm gonna have to pack them all and I don't wanna do it. And our brain is gonna. And I'm not saying that I don't think this all the time. My husband had to talk me off a ledge this morning. He's like, you know, you're talking real negative to yourself and what do you think your results are gonna be? And I was like, yeah, I know, but I'm in it, so. So leave me alone. You know, think that you're so talented and your stuff looks so good and people are telling you what they want from you. But it sounds to me like there's this fear and this overthinking of if I let it grow, I don't know how I'm gonna do it. So maybe I just stay safe and don't grow it.

And it could be subconsciously, you know, that's definitely. I've been aware of that. And I would say that probably if we end up talking next about just my other thoughts as far as a different way to grow of more, you know, direct selling to people, like get. Getting an audience. I guess what I was thinking was that I just realized now with making these larger orders for the restaurants, kind of the capacity of like what I can make like in a month and could I grow my audience to where I'm selling more directly so making more retail prices at least to grow in that way in the coming months, like after these restaurant orders are done. You know, I was trying to figure out like the maximum way to, to kind of max profits for where I'm at right now.

So what I want you to realize is you're at capacity right now because you're a solo person and the product takes a long time. Same thing if you grow it, you can hire people that you train that are other artists on how to do parts. Whether, you know, they learn to shape the bowl or they learn they're the ones who put it in the kiln, they glaze it, or whatever the process is. You will teach parts of processes. Maybe there's someone that, you know, bring on and they're the person who does, like, bowls and platters or, I don't know, something simpler. And then you do some of the more sophisticated pieces. But I've worked with many pottery companies at this point that have scaled to multiple millions. Multiple millions. And they are still smaller studios. The artists like you is still there. So one of them, she was on the podcast a long time ago, is Virginia Sin. And Sin is her company, and she sells that at CB2. So it's still all handmade, I think, in New York, last I saw it. And if you follow her on social media, you'll see, like, she shows how they make the product, but there's just a lot more people making it. So currently in your basement as is. No, it may not be completely possible, but maybe eventually it expands into like a worker's warehouse, you know, or one person you do trust and bring into your house. And they're down in the basement while you're homeschooling upstairs. For example, you know, on Fridays they make plates, and on they could make X amount of plates on that Friday they put them in the kiln. We know how long that process takes. And Mondays they put in the bowls. Right? So you then start to work in blocks and batches. So what might be interesting is like, if you have stock that we can buy from, and certain things might take longer, but if you could start building up stock and then whatever you sell to me, whatever you put in front of me and you position, you're like, on your website right now, I go, and there's like dinner plates. I'm going to buy what you show me. So if you showed me an entire tablescape, I'm going to buy that. So you get to choose what you feel like selling. And then you can kind of not promote the other stuff. Or that stuff could be on wait list or pre orders because they're sold out as of right now. Does that make sense?

Yeah. And I don't always have it like that on my site. It's just really because I'm doing these Restaurant orders right now.

So I think that what's beautiful and amazing about what's happening for you right now is you're testing your capacity on a bigger order. Like, it's going to be more apparent to you where the bottlenecks are, so that if you're like, oh, okay, so let's start getting $6,000 worth of orders a month, or let's start getting $10,000 worth of orders a month, whatever it is. And however you get it, you're just gonna be like, oh, here's where our capacity is. Here's where our bottlenecks are happening. How do I optimize and systemize this process so that I can grow? Because you get to control what happens in your business in the way of. I'm looking at your cheese platters. It says only three remaining, right? So if you wanted to sell those three, all you have to do is send an email about it or post it. I'm not saying that, like, you have all the traffic there, but I'm just gonna give examples, post it on social media, and be like, only three left. You know, you send an email, only three of these. You just have to communicate to your customers, like, hey, I want to sell this thing. So a really good example. Once we had someone in our mastermind, she had this, like, lemon bowl that she had made, and she's like, it's really expensive. It's $400. It's one of my more expensive pieces. People aren't buying it. And so we said to her, we're like, well, have you tried to sell it? Because it was up on a shelf in her store, like, have you tried to move it? And she's like, well, no. I mean, it's there, but they just don't buy it. We're like, okay, great. Throw it on your Instagram. Because she had an Instagram following.

Talk about it.

Talk about lemons. Talk about the bowl. Like, give it some attention. And she sold it, like, within 24 hours. So it's this power of, like, what we talk about. Our customers want us to tell them what to buy. So when we do work and get you the customer inflow, you can easily say, hey, I want you to buy this, or don't talk about it. And they won't go to it as often. Does that make sense?

Yeah. I mean, and I definitely do that. I sold a ton that way. Right before Christmas, I got invited to this local country club, and it was, like, five weeks out. And I just. I know. I was, like, debating because of the whole like not making brand new things, the bestsellers, right? Like, but I was thinking, okay, holidays, like I don't have any little easy to buy holiday stuff. So I just started making those two size oval platters. And I was so glad that I did actually because I sold a bunch at that country club sale. And then I came home and I was just like on Instagram stories and like over and over and over again, platters, platters, platters. And I did, I sold so many of them and I have sent out emails again when the batches came out and I sold a few more. But you know, I would say my email list is just about 500 people now.

Amazing.

Not huge, but I do try to email once a week. I was like perfect with that for a while. But with these restaurant orders, like that's all I'm doing, doing. So I still though I will like promote the things and I see that that works. Not always because a lot of people.

Have bought them, they just need something else to buy. So it's basically you continuing to share new stuff with them. And you know, everyone needs a reason to buy something. So I'm glad. That's a great list. That's like a great list size that you have. And so let's just say, I don't know, Easter, we just passed Easter at the time of this recording. And you know, for example, so would have been this lead up to you launching and getting their heads around with enough time for them to order it or that you were sitting on the product of like an Easter tablescape and you just start to seed for them. Oh yeah, like that's exactly how I want my table to look for Easter. And they're pre ordering it earlier because Easter is one of those times that people gather for meals the same way that another busy time for you is going to be fall winter holidays.

Your customers want to be told what to buy. Let me repeat this again. If you're not paying attention, your customers want you to tell them what to buy. It's common to think, oh, I'll just give them all of the options and they'll choose what makes the most sense to them. It's a nice thought, but customers don't actually shop that way. Leaning into seasonal strategies, batching production, and then making a big push towards selling one specific item makes it easier for customers to make the decision to buy or at least market those specific items so that your customers know, hey, this is what I should buy right now. Oh my goodness. Friends, have you heard that we just.

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So I know you said you wanted to get to some of your next questions, so what do you want to dig into? Like, where would you like to take it?

What I was thinking about as I looked through the last few years, just of how things have gone. Like last year I thought I was taking a step to kind of grow my audience because before that I had really just like a handful of women had found me and just were buying so much of my stuff. And I was like, if I could just get a couple more, a few more of these people who just love my stuff, that would be great. And I ended up doing this collaboration with a pretty well known designer. It was an awesome experience, but I think I grew my audience to this collaborative collection which is not my, you know, the way that my things look. It was different, it was very colorful. Like we designed it together. So it was an amazing experience. But I was like, okay, you know, I did, like I said, grow my audience, but I was just thinking that it would be far smarter at this point to find some ways to really just, well, direct traffic differently. I was thinking of, you know, specifically like the times when people buy, which is when they're redesigning their kitchen. This kind of like thinking about this whole like kitchen redesign. I was thinking of content, you know, like how I can draw more people in. So, so I was thinking of that time. And also a couple summers ago I had a bride register, like using one of those sites that you can register anything on. So just those two ideas. What I was kind of thinking of developing content around that. Like one, writing a story on how to kind of like a how to story, how to register using these sites, like register, you know, handmade pottery, that kind of thing. And I'm, I really want to start leaning more heavily into Pinterest versus Instagram. I that's why this year I've really, I've been just doing stories, keeping my most days stories going with Instagram. But one thing that I wrote like a blog post a few years ago on Pinterest is still bringing traffic to my website right now. And I just thought I want to put my effort into something that's going to be more this evergreen versus you know, the social media that just kind of disappears and you feel like you have to work so much on it. Like I was working so, so much on Instagram for A while. And I gained people, but just, you know.

Yeah, I mean, so what you're saying is, I mean, and this is inside of msm, so the SEO module where we teach you about how to get people in the back door. And then since you know how to use Pinterest, use it for that. Because it's exactly. What you're saying is people are searching for a solution to a problem or they're searching for. They're searching for a look. So when I go on Pinterest, I might be like, yesterday when I was like, I'm gonna reorganize my whole fridge. That was the mood I was in. And I was like, how to organize vegetables in your vegetable drawer. I was just like, I wanted to visually see a really awesome looking fridge with it and it took me to other people's blogs. What I want you to process and the information you learned from this other person that you collaborated with is I want you to really dig into who is your ideal customer and know that she is actually someone who's probably affluent, wealthy, trendy, has a very specific kind of look and feel to her home. She's probably into art. She understands that she's going to pay more for certain things. You might actually be priced low. So I haven't done market research on your competition, but you really have to get into where would she shop if they were bigger places like CB2, Crate and Barrel. I think your stuff is more of like a CB2, maybe West Elm. You're not a Pottery Barn or a Williams and Sonoma because those things are, they're like more classic. So you want to think about like the bigger kind of chain, big box stores. Also understanding interior designers and certain types of interior designers and how they style. Because you want to know who is my customer and who is she following? What is she looking up? Like what is influencing her and her choices? It could be creators on social. It could be. I know I follow certain interior designers that I like, I align with for certain things. And then the same thing for you is you're actually a tastemaker and also a designer that we would follow to be like, oh, I follow. I don't know, I'm just gonna say Kelly Wearstler. And you might be, you're not a hundred percent Kelly or. But let's just say she's very artistic. And then I discover your stuff at the same time because we've got similar audiences that follow and then they go from there. So you could do blogs on interior designers that your ideal customer might be looking up your top 10 favorite interior designers for tablescapes. But I want you to come up with things that actually are going to attract your ideal customer and what she would look for, which is a more elevated, high end, design aware customer. It's not a person who goes and buys her plates from Target in a box. I've been her. But that's not your customer. You're not looking for the person who's going for the plastic. You know, like you're someone who, like you said, it doesn't break. So they covet it. They'll pay a lot for it. And I see that in the chefs that you're working with and in the way you present forward. So any kind of content you make, I want it to just be aligned with like it's like a fishing line and you want to reel in the ideal people for you. What would she be searching for? So I do think that Pinterest is a really excellent way for you to do this. And you could also do, I don't always tell people to do a freebie download, but you, let's say, could potentially do one. There's been a thing that I've done before where it's like how to make my bed and set up my pillows, you know, to look like a hotel room. So you could have a tablescape set up if you thought that your ideal customer wanted to know, like, you know, does the plate go on top of the plate and the forks and the knives and like the way to do the napkins. You could do an opt in like that. You don't need to, but, you know, you just think of other ways to get people in because we want to get their email addresses. We want to keep growing that list. So I agree with that part.

The second thing you said that you've.

Worked in collaboration, so I do think it would be interesting for you to kind of where I was going also was if you find interior designers that you can collaborate with. I saw on your blog, which is old, it's from 2021, it's under stories and it's the charcuterie boards in progress.

That's the one that everyone comes to from Pinterest.

And I think it's so cool.

Oh, really funny.

So you're also getting data that people are coming in there looking for them, but you don't actually have. So that is actually a really cool product to consider because you said people are still coming for it or understanding, like, how do I subsidize it? So why handmade ceramics make food taste better? I don't know that that's something I'm looking for, but I might be looking for a charcuterie board, and that might be how you got posted. Pinterest is a search engine, so people go to Pinterest to search. How do I pack for a European vacation, how do I make my bed, you know, how to plan for my wedding, all of that. Like, Pinterest is not a social media platform. It's a search. So you want to look at. Then what would my ideal customer come to Pinterest to search? And how can I meet her? So it may be board design. There's some amazing Instagram people that do charcuterie boards, and you can actually do a collab with them that you're like, let's do, like, a thing. I'm going to send you a charcuterie board. Could you use it and design it? Right? And then you do a collab, and maybe it's a giveaway for one of their followers. So these are ways to follow the clues that are being left for you and thinking about the right types of collaborations for you, where really it might be people using your product. They could do giveaways. They could do a giveaway for a gift card, whatever it is. Because your stuff is so cool, you don't have a flooded market of competition. Sure, there's pottery people, but. But this stuff is you and your art. So it's actually coveted. Most people don't know it exists yet. I think your price point is very accessible. It might be too low, but it's just the awareness of your brand actually existing out there.

Okay, so when you were saying collaborations, you just mean like, that kind of like the example of you said charcuterie board and someone who does charcuterie, not like. Because the collaboration I did last year with it was actually Alvin Wayne. Was Alvin Wayne awesome designer and even just amazing person. It was great. But it. The project was like six months from start to finish, from us working on it to the making, like the glaze testing. Oh, my gosh, so much time. So it was great. And I really have gotten a larger network of interior designers because I do also find the interior designers are very drawn to my pieces. So that's been great to just my. I grew my network in that way and just met some great people. So that, you know, was definitely. There were definitely benefits to it. I just. I think with where I'm at right.

Now, I don't think I wasn't your aesthetic. So the collaboration you did was a collaboration, but outside of your aesthetic. So when you do a collab like that, there's reasons. One, there's just, like, the revenue that potentially you'll make by selling it. But you do have to think further. So I'm doing an event coming up that's a podcasting event where I'm going to be speaking about being a podcaster to other podcasters. So I had to make a decision that I was going there and I wasn't going to grow my Product Boss audience because they're not product people. So if my team looks at it, my team might be like, you know, this is actually, what's the ROI on this? You know, what is the reason you're doing this? And I have to come up with a good reason. I'm doing it because I love the person hosting it, because I want to share the information I have about it. It's something that I'd like to do, but it doesn't have the result that I want for my business. So. So, yeah, a bunch of people might get to know me. So this is how I flipped it. I was like, okay, I'm going to do this, and I'm actually going to let these podcasters know that if they have product people in their audience, they can come and, like, we're going to give them a freebie on, like, how to help product people in their audience. So I'm trying to work it that I can still be helpful to them. They have an awareness of me, but they're not my ideal customer. So how can they share it with my ideal customer? So you just have to think about this for everything you say yes to. And this is really cool, because when you do collaborations, it validates you, I guess, right? Like, we at the Product Boss kicked off in the very beginning because we had Cratejoy approach us. We had 10 episodes out, maybe a thousand people listened. We never even told them the numbers. But cratejoy was a platform for subscription businesses, and they knew that we had a product podcast, and so they paid us a lot of money to do a collab with them. And do we teach subscription boxes? We don't. But that was like, the very, very beginning. Like, everyone that came into us, like, oh, we found you through cratejoy. We found you through cratejoy. So it was good because that was like the next thing that set us up. So just use what you did as, like, a liftoff point. If you do other collaborations, maybe it's with interior designers, but they align with it. So it's like they might help you with the shape, but it's in your aesthetic. And I love that for you as. As maybe, like maybe once a year, you do some sort of collab, and that's like an extra lift. But what works for you is the awareness in front of other people's audiences. So when you can, you're like, where I'm looking is you're like, everybody comes for this charcuterie board. Charcuterie boards have been a trend, so you should be making them. Or maybe you're not, because they don't work. But let's say you go back into them. Then you search social media. You can find it through people on Instagram. You can find it through Pinterest Charcuterie boards. There's people who plate them, that do them, that teach them. There's people who do workshops for them. And if they have an audience of people that follow them because they want to mimic that look, collaborate with them, send them a board, and that's going to get you. Because now people are going to be like, I want to recreate that look, I'm coming to Suzanne to buy the charcuterie board. And that's how you start to blow through product. And you're like, I'm doing this collab. I'm going to have 25 of them ready. And that's my goal, to sell 25. Right. You might blow through that really easy. Does that make sense?

Yep. No, I was just thinking, like, the fact that I don't have Shopify, that's also something I've been wondering about.

Like, don't have Shopify.

No.

Your website's pretty. So what do you use?

I use square, which I don't wish that I started out with them, but I did, and I am where I am. So I feel like it has a few features that just aren't really user friendly for, like, they give my customers questions, I guess.

So. I love Shopify because it grows with you. Right. So. And I'm not promoting it because, I mean, I have an affiliate link, but I'm promoting it because I believe in it as a product that. That allows for small business owners in the beginning to use templates that are optimized for E commerce or which is what it is when you sell online and when you eventually grow, you could be Shopify Pro. So you could have a $25 million business, a $50 million business. It can also operate where you don't have to go out and build your own code or do your own backend. Like, there's. When I started out, I had to build so much of I had to use a cart. It was called 3D cart that I had to attach to a website to do transactions. It was not how easy it is for all of you today. So is this the project that you have to do of changing over to Shopify? I don't think yet, because it doesn't sound like making a ton of sales. You could do it where you're like, okay, I'm really gonna think, I want to grow this business. And come the fall, when it's a busy time of year for me, I'm ready to kind of like relaunch and you can build it. I think you can still get by with the current site. I think your photos are beautiful. I think the layout is beautiful. What we have to do is if you're going to make it rain, we need the buckets to catch it. So if you're going to do more marketing, get on Pinterest and do it. We need to have the product to sell, because if not, then we have effort for no reason. So I think your site still works for you. It looks to me like it is an easy to navigate site. Sure, there could be some clunkiness to it, but it feels like there's other operational things to get going so that you know that when you do start getting Pinterest going, maybe you're working with some collaborations where people are getting you in front of their audiences, then you have the product to sell. Because what's the point of doing all that marketing if you don't have product to sell to them?

Once you start identifying your ideal customer, you can start getting creative about how.

To bring them in.

Now. Instagram has worked well for a lot of product bosses in the past, but it's far from the only way to grow. Suzanne has seen some success before with Pinterest, and her product is a natural fit with its aesthetic look. So it makes sense to double down on that. We also touched on how collaborating with someone whose audience overlaps with your ideal customer can help you grow quickly and convert those to sales by getting yourself.

In front of the right people. Second thing I want to suggest and offer to you as an idea. I'm just going to seed it for you, but I know you're going to have to think about it is I actually think you might be really great to wholesale. Like, yes, we can drive our own traffic, but there is this level of influence. There's a company called Is it Hudson Grace? There's like at the Brentwood market, right. So you go to places that are expensive. So let's say Brentwood in la, places in the Hamptons, like Greenwich Village, like go to places that have a lot of money, that people have an aesthetic. And I would find the retailers and I would actually try and sell wholesale to them even if they had a set, but they didn't have all of them to sell. But they took orders for you and then submitted to them to you and then you shipped them to people. But I do think that there's this another way for you to start to grow your name is that it is to associate you with retail partners that have influence on their community. So I just want to see the idea of wholesale for you long term because that to me seems like an easier lever for you to pull then growing up. I know you're not going to necessarily do Instagram, but like driving your own traffic to your own website, it's going to take other people's audiences, I think to start.

Okay, yeah. And there's one thing I was realizing that I really don't have a good kind of return policy in place. I don't have any. Basically if something breaks in transit, I've replaced it for people. But I don't know what's the best way to like figure out how to do that. Because I don't say like I'll take returns. And I really have never had anyone want to return anything. But I feel like there should be something clear on there that people are probably. I mean when I buy things I always look for the return policy and just see what the policies are. So.

So I would do your market research who your competitors are.

Yeah.

At the higher price point, don't look at what CB2 offers because they're a huge corporation. But like go look at other companies and say like what is their return policy? Now a lot breaks in shipping pottery, but I would look at them and I would say what do you like from what they have and what don't you like? And then make your own version of it. So I would go and look at similar high end companies that sell pottery. I'd see what the return policies are for customers to ship back. There might be a restock fee because again now they have to pack it and send it back to you and it has to exist. So you might have a restocking fee, store credit only. You know, like that happens with some furniture companies. Like you can return it but you're going to pay 15% restocking and then I don't get my cash back. So that's what I would say is your return Policy and then guarding yourself on the other end of when you ship it out. Like how do you want to ensure yourself if something does break? Because I think they only insure up to a hundred dollars.

Okay.

Like without extra insurance. So yeah. So go into the multi stream machine Facebook group. Some of these questions you could probably ask in too.

Yeah.

Especially when it comes to. You can collaborate with someone and ask them to do a website audit for you. You can ask people what their return policies and you can tell them exactly what it is like with the product. I think that you have such potential to grow. You just need to be open to the fact. It's like the same with our kids. Right. Like obviously, like I've never raised an eight year old girl before, I'm in it and then she's going to be nine. Right. So as you grow your business, you're going to be in it and then it's going to move to another phase and into another phase. So just let yourself take these like baby steps through it and be like when that problem arises. So if you make it rain and all of a sudden you're making a ton of money and orders are coming in, then you'll know you can solve for it in that moment. But you'll want to kind of start thinking about it now where you're like, okay, I'm going to solve for it in the moment. I can hire if I need to hire. But if you can kind of start pre planning and preparing your brain now you're like hey, when I get there I'll solve for it. And then that'll allow some space for you to keep moving upwards and forwards. But I do think wholesale, I think restaurants, I think those are two really great things. I think collabs with other people of influence and also some more market research on your part because another thing could be is your stuff could be priced quite low and so your ideal customer might be like these are actually really low for what they're used to spending on. So that also sometimes repels your ideal customer. There's a little bit more of that but then you have all the tools to grow it from here.

Okay.

Okay.

So funny you're saying they're priced low. I mean I do look at other, you know, just kind of well known people and I know there, there's such a range, you know. But yeah, okay.

I'll definitely, that's why I think knowing who your ideal customer is.

Yeah.

Because what's low to someone is high to someone else. So you know, I like, I know Someone who married a billionaire. Okay, so this is like a lot of money. And I remember my mom telling me, you know, gossip. And she's like, yeah, they went and stayed at a hotel and, like, you know, I think it was like, really expensive. They were probably paying like $800 a night or something. So me being my mother's daughter and also being nosy, I went and looked up the hotel. It was $8,000 a night. $8,000 a night, not 800. So to her, 800 was like top of her budget. And then they're spending I don't know how many weeks in multiple rooms at 8,000. And to them they might be like, yeah, that's our everyday. So it's just we don't know more than what. We maybe know what we've been raised by, like, what we're exposed to. But let's just go with Virginia Sinnigan. And actually, she actually came out with a plate. It's a plate that looks like it was something she did a long time ago. And it's actually in the design museum in New York City. It's a plate that looks like a paper plate, but she sells a berry bowl for $98, a utensil holder for $98, a platter for 150. Oh, here's her dinner plate. Porcelain paper plate. That's the one that's in the thing for $72 for one plate. She's highly successful. I own a lot of her pieces and she sells to CB2.

I mean, my dinner plate is 58 right now. So, you know, a little bit of difference there.

It is different. Your stuff, to me, I'm going to be honest, feels cheap. Like, I'm actually, I can afford your stuff and I couldn't afford. And I can also afford Virginia's stuff, and I look at yours and I'm like, they feel more like prices that if I went to Macy's and bought pleats that everybody else has at Macy's.

It's so funny because I feel like I've really worked on the pricing and like, the things that, like, the words you're saying to me are words I've.

Heard you say before.

Because I listen to podcasts and I like, yes, I'm going to listen and I'm going to do it. And then you're saying that I haven't done it, which is just so funny.

To like, no, no, but here's the difference.

Like, you're probably priced correctly. If we did the normal markup, what does the material cost? How much Did I charge per hour? Yeah, you're probably crushing it. But the cool thing about you and your product, and they say this about Chanel bags, so I'll just bring it up again. A Chanel bag is just a leather bag with some metal on it, with a chain that. But the reason why somebody's going to spend, by the way, they went up like 30%. So I think you can get it on a Chanel bag at like $10,000 now, which is bonkers. Like, it's not that the leather costs more, it's not that they're using like cows sent by God. They can charge what they want because they've created the desire for it. They're attracting a very certain customer. And in fact by them going higher with their price points, they're actually excluding all the other women that are like lining up at Louis Vuitton and that can get like the three thousand dollar bags. Again, these numbers are insane. But I say that because in the end of the day it's just leather and bag components. So why would someone spend that money? It's because of what it represents. So for you, while you're probably priced correctly, you actually can create more desire. And this is the pricing psychology. If you know exactly who your ideal customer is, what she wants, what she desires, like who she. That's what I was kind of getting at this whole time and then realizing like, if you're under pricing, then she's going to associate you with not good quality, with not special. Yes. So when you know who she is, you can raise your price. You could charge, you know, $300 a plate if you really wanted to. If you like grew your, your business, you can charge whatever you want because it's irrelevant at that point. You're making back your money. But now it's like, it's the positioning of yourself in the market.

So.

So I do think there's a little bit more market research to be done here as you're moving forward. It doesn't have to be done by tomorrow, but as you're moving forward to be like, okay, well what are other people charging for this kind of quality and design and craftsmanship and uniqueness? Where would my ideal customer shop? How much is she paying? Like $500,000 to have her house redesigned then yeah, you know she's gonna spend a lot on a plate. So you might just wanna start to associate yourself and understand where the higher priced products are coming from. There's a place called Gary's in Beverly Hills, which is where very wealthy people register for their weddings. So you can go there and be like, well, what are these plates costing for people? And then you can make a decision. Do you want to be up high? Do you want to be lower? Do you want to be more accessible? You get to choose that.

Yeah, no, I totally understand that philosophy, but I didn't realize that I was falling into the.

The lower.

I get the philosophy.

Yeah. When I see your stuff, it feels, it just. I want you to be different than Cost plus world Market. Right. Like I want you to be. Because I do have bulls that are irregular that are Cost plus World Market and just they don't look like yours. They're shiny, they're not as cool. But it needs to be, they need to be knocking you off. Like, it needs to be like, this is the standard. And then, you know, so it just, it needs to be elevated in a level. So it's not your design, but it might be the pricing. But this is just from me talking to you for like 15 minutes. So it doesn't mean that it's the exact thing to do. But I would like you to dig in a little bit more. It'll influence every. Everything else. Where you sell, who you collaborate with, who you're attracting on Pinterest. It's going to influence all of it. That like nailing your niche, nailing your messaging, and then the pricing psychology is really important and that's going to help all of your marketing. Okay. All right. So speaking of buying from you, where can we buy from you and follow you on social and all the things?

So my website is suzannecumar.com and my Instagram is usancumarceramics.

Amazing. We'll drop that all into the show notes. Thank you so much. We'll talk to you later.

I love when the solution to a problem is charge more. Suzanne is selling a product that appeals to a high end market. But from my perspective, she could be charging more and her customer would be happy to pay that price. On top of that, the custom design work she's done for restaurant owners, while time consuming, could be a great source of revenue for her business as long as she's pricing it right. We constantly doubt ourselves in terms of how much we charge, but also in envisioning the next stages of our business. Suzanne finds it hard to imagine a world where she's not doing all of the work in her business. And I see this all the time. But that's the path every product based business begins to take. If you want to grow big, you.

Have to think big.

I want to encourage you all to start thinking bigger in your business and see how freeing that can be. If this episode was inspirational, would you mind passing it along and sending it to another product based business owner that you may know? And if you have the time, go ahead and pause this episode right now and leave a review for the Product Boss Podcast. It really helps us be discovered by more product bosses around the world so we can continue to help them grow their businesses as well. All right my friend, I'll see you in the next one. Thank you for being here and listening all the way through the Product Boss Podcast. If you love our show and it has helped you in any any way in your business, would you mind doing two things for us? Subscribe to the show so you never miss an episode and leave us a review. Reviews help other product entrepreneurs know that this is the place to be to grow their businesses and realize that they're not alone. And we know that you all know that a five star and honest review helps you sell more products to more people. So you know that your reviews help us reach more listeners around the world. Remember, what we give is what we receive and we are all about helping each other in the Product Boss community. We are all in this together. We would be so appreciative of you if you could take the time right now to subscribe, leave a review and even share this episode on social or someone you know so we can impact more lives. And remember, subscribing means that you will get notified each time we release a new episode so you never miss a a thing. You have helped us grow and climb into the top 10 of all marketing podcasts and together we can keep climbing. Thank you friends and remember there is room at the top for all of us.