43: Passion and Focus with Amit Khurana

Welcome. This is Real Estate Investing Live from New York with James Nelson, the principal and head of Avis and Young's Tri State Investment Sales Group. In this program you'll learn about the world of commercial real estate and find out why it is one of the largest investment opportunities in New York and around the world. Now here is your host, James Nelson.

Welcome to Real Estate Investing live from New York. This is your host, James Nelson. For episode 43, we've done it. We've cracked 75,000 downloads. It feels like only a couple weeks ago that we were cracking 50,000. But really appreciate everyone's support and telling your friends and your ratings, your comments, please keep them coming. That's what it helps to spread the word and teach others how to successfully invest in real estate. So for today's show, and usually we have a panel towards the end, but this was such an in depth interview that we're going to use the entire time, interviewed my friend Amit Khurana from Sumeda and Khurana about his story, his time spent in India, developing there as well as here in New York. And we're going to talk about passion today and loving what you do. And Amit has such a passion for the business and for development and design and he's going to talk about how he traveled all over the world to bring Pritzker Award winning architects back to New York to design some of their first ever projects. But he also gets deeply personal and he talks about the challenges and what it's like to truly be a developer and investor. And I think oftentimes you hear about a lot of the success stories and all the great news, but it also talks about a lot of the sleepless nights. So this is a great listen and appreciate your tuning in all the way through. And lastly, before we break from a quick word from our sponsors, I'm gonna open up the lines for questions on some of our upcoming shows. So keep a look for an email where you can join in on a zoom call where you can pose your questions which I will answer online. And if you're not on my mailing list, you can email me@jamesnelsonvisonyoung.com and that way we can make sure that you're included in this because I want to answer your questions too. I want to hear about projects that you're investing in and how to put deals together and that's, that's what we're here to accomplish. So thank you again for your support. We're going to have a brief word from our sponsors. We'll be right back for that in depth interview with Amit Khurana.

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And now it's time for our Investor Spotlight. And with us on the show today is my friend Amit Khurana from Sumeda and Kharana. He's actually joining us from one of the outer islands in Bahamas. So thank you so much for joining us remotely and I know we've got a good connection here. So it's wonderful to see you.

Absolutely. Thanks so much James.

So you have incredible experience with over 14 years in the business, having done developments in both New York and India, and you've had a part in developing incredibly architecturally renowned projects in Manhattan. Most recently, you're working with a Pritzker Award winning master architect, Tadao Ando, on a project as well as with another Pritzker Award winner, Alvaro Siza. So we're going to have a great time talking to you today about your passion for architecture and how you bring these to your projects. Before this you were a principal at Maverick Partners, which was your family's real estate firm, having offices in both New York and India. And I know you also serve on the board of Directors for Storefront of Art and Architecture in the Municipal Art Society of New York. You graduated from Columbia with a Master of Science in Real Estate Development and also Bachelor of Arts from Tufts, the company that you founded. Your core objective is developing Seminole buildings through an uncompromising dedication to architecture and craft. And you are currently working on multiple projects with a combined sellout of over $700 million. We're also going to speak about your firm's construction management firm, Foundations Group, which is presently building 15 new projects in excess of 550 million for about 1.2 million square feet across, 11 ground up and four conversions. So really wonderful to have your experience and your perspective here. So why don't you start us off by telling you, telling us a little bit about your childhood. You grew up in India, So, for.

The most part, I actually grew up in the States. I was in India for a short period of time when I was very young, but for the most part, in. In the States, in New York, actually, out in Westchester, not too far from where you are, James.

Wonderful. And so did you see your family had offices, though, in both countries? So did you find yourself traveling at a young age? Do you still have family overseas?

Yeah, I do. I mean, back and forth to India. Yes. My. My family owns property in and in Bangalore, and we had also developed the largest mall in Delhi a number of years ago. So that's really where we were. And the types of work we were kind of focused in on, we. So I, you know, for the most part, when I was growing up, though, I wasn't. I wasn't necessarily around real estate that. That much. And, you know, I always did have, like, an affinity or interest, though, and I think that was more of something that was natural. Just, you know, and also buildings and architecture, you know, it was more than just real estate for me. I think I was just drawn to buildings.

Yeah, no, I was gonna ask you. I mean, this passion for design, I mean, was this something that, you know, at a young age, I guess you were Westchester. I'm sure you're taking trips into the city and you're seeing the buildings. I mean, what about design? Fascinating.

You know what? So I have to tell you, so when I was growing up, I was very fortunate. We had a beautiful home. And, you know, I have very kind of fond memories from that home. And, you know, the experience of the home, I think, you know, I think informed a lot of my interest in terms of creating housing, in terms of creating an experience for living, in a way. And I think that, I think because we're so focused on residential development, you know, that on some level is definitely a part of me. And I would say it always was. You know, it's like, it's interesting you're asking these questions, and it reminds me of what, you know, what I experienced when I was growing up. And there was no doubt about the fact that that was definitely a part of it.

You know, I also, having watched several of your projects, and you take so much pride in every detail. I mean, the attention to detail, I don't know if I've ever seen in Any other project. So, I mean, are there any examples from, you know, again, growing up or any early businesses where, you know, your attention to detail, whether it was school or wherever, you know, led you to success today? I mean, any. Any early stories you could share?

Yeah, I can tell you that I, fortunately or unfortunately, have always been a perfectionist. I've been able to slow it down a little bit over the last few years because I think it was getting to be a little too much, especially on our subs at some of these projects. But I think I always had an interest in excellence. Right. You know, I think when I think about life just generally, and when I think about, you know, what it means to perform and create and I think just to function professionally, my tendency, and my interest is very simply the word excellence. And it's always been the ability to do something that really stands out and in whatever form that is. Obviously, in our development projects, that form happens to be architecture, it happens to be design. But, you know, I think there was always, you know, an interest to really. I don't know if the word is outperform, but it was to be as the best I could possibly be and create the most I could. Like, you know, when I was. Tennis was actually. And I had mentioned that to you, tennis was a very important part of my childhood. So I played competitive tennis for many years. And, you know, when I committed to tennis, it was just. It was my life. And, you know, it was day in, day out. I was obviously a whole lot more skinny and fit than I am now, but it was. It was something that. It was my life. You know, I would wake up every day, I would finish school, and I would go straight to the tennis club. And even if, you know, I didn't have the ability to get on the tennis court, I would sit there and watch, you know, watch videos of, you know, of Ed Berg playing Agassiz or whoever it was. I was so dedicated in that way, and I loved it. And, you know, my. I think part of the viewer experience for me has been when I'm. When I'm passionate about something, I. I really try my best to kind of get pretty deep into whatever it is that I'm focused on. And I think tennis was, as I mentioned, an important part of it. And later in life, it became the reason that I actually ended up getting into development.

So you went to Tufts. Uh, I mean, so you're in. You're in Boston. You're, you know, you're in the city. Were you. Were you thinking at that point about what you wanted to do afterwards? I mean, were there any, you know, jobs or things that you were doing along the way?

Well, so what happened was. So one summer I was. I was. You know, it had been quite a while since I had actually like, properly picked up the racket and. But I started to teach. So I was teaching at. Yvonne Lendel owned a tennis club called Grand Slam at Banksville, which I think, you know, it's still there.

I've biked past that.

Yeah, exactly. So Lendl owned it then, and he later sold it and was focusing on golf. But he. So I was teaching there, and, you know, I had a lot of very successful clients, and I think clients that. That kind of. I was fascinated by whether it was real estate or different areas of business. Entrepreneurs, I was just always amazed by their stories and I think the success that a lot of those clients were able to achieve. And what happened was I was getting closer to the end of the summer. I didn't really like working for someone, and I wasn't a very good employee at all. So I'm getting closer to the end of the summer. And I said, you know what? Why am I making. Whatever it was, 22 bucks an hour to teach here. And, you know, they're charging 90 an hour for lessons. There's like a huge divide there. So I actually went out and I went and I bought all of these. I had these flyers. I created all these flyers, 10,000 flyers. And I created a little, you know, entity called Tennis to Go. And I put those flyers on cars all over Westchester and Greenwich and, you know, you name it, you know that.

I hope you didn't put it on Ivan Lendl's car. He might not have.

No, I didn't. But they definitely. They sent me a notice about competition after they found out that a few of my clients happened to be theirs. But it was everywhere. So if you're going down Greenwich Avenue, every single car day after day would have these flyers on. And a lot of it was geared towards people who had home courts. And then what we would do is we would lease court time in Rye Brook at the. What was the old Hilton. So we would, you know, I would teach, and I had tennis pros that actually ended up working for me. So. And it was amazing, the calls and the just caliber of people that. That ended up reaching out from those flyers. Like, you know, it's really incredible. Like, just some pretty amazing people. And I think one of those. One of those families were. Was the stern, like, family. And I'm sure, you know, you know, Barry and who is the founder of Starwood and Starwood Capital. And I started to go to their house to teach. And, you know, I was teaching his kids and, you know, I would play matches and hit with Barry as well. And, you know, I started to. I learned the narrative and the story about what he had done and what Starwood Hotels was about. And at that point in time, he had created W Hotels. And I was fascinated by all of it. And at the same time, I had so many different clients that were doing interesting things. One of my clients was a hedge fund manager and had started the Bridge out in Bridgehampton, the golf club. So I had these unique clients. And what I kind of gained from it more than anything else was I realized that normal, everyday people had found incredible success for one reason or another. That, you know, when I was growing up in Westchester, I didn't deal with, you know, I guess my friend's parents, for example, that had had that level of success. Everyone was like a doctor, a lawyer, etc. And so I hadn't really seen that. And I realized those years in Greenwich that this is real. Like, everyday people can find incredible success. Like it is possible. It almost. It made me realize that, you know, big dreams and big ideas can, you know, actually come to life, you know, if it, you know, if you take the steps that one needs to take. And so what happened was I was. I had this sort of. One of the dreams was to build a tennis club. So I, you know, I was. I was like, I gotta build a tennis club, and I want to build something that is truly exceptional. So I went to the Greenwich Public Library, I'm sure you know where that is. And I went and I started to order books there. You know, there was no Kindle or anything like that then. So I would order books on architecture and design. And in over one summer, I think it was like, I don't know, 1350 books or 15. It was some obscene number of books that I ordered. And they would keep sending these books. And every day I would go there, like, after I would teach, do lessons, I would go there and I would. And it was really, I have to tell you, it was more like just flipping pages, flipping pages, pages, pages, and I think visually taking in buildings and taking in beautiful architecture. And I really like, you know, I kind of fell in love with the idea of being able to create special buildings. And so what happened? So, you know, I wanted to really, you know, build this club. And I was, you know, going through these books, and while I was going through these books, these few pages really stood out. And the pages were. It was the work of Michael Gabellini. Gabellini Shepherd. And they. Ultimately he's. You know, we've collaborated now on multiple projects. But, you know, his. When I saw what he did, I was like, my God, I would love to build something that, you know, has such, you know, beautiful interiors and so on and so forth. So I was. I was really excited about it, and I just picked up the phone and called him. Like, I didn't really know. I was. I was 22 years old. You know, what did. I didn't know anything. And I really had very little in the way of resources. But I. I called him and I was like, I want to build a tennis club. He's like, you should come and you should come and meet me. And I said, okay, I'll come now. And I actually got into my car and I drove to New York to his office. I was wearing all whites, so I was wearing, like, I was literally right off the tennis court and I meet Michael and Kim, who's his design partner. And he was just such a gentleman and so receptive, like, and I told him straight up, I'm like, look, I'm a young guy. I, you know, hustle. I do this. I put flyers on cars. Like, I was just sharing very candidly with him, and he loved it. And we really kind of created a connection, and it was the beginning of me having, like, momentum in a way, you know. And what happened was I found this consultant that helped me to. To kind of create a business plan. And Michael was helping to, like, put together, you know, different studies, and he was willing and interested in doing this, like, all pro bono for like a 22 year old, you know, kid. I hadn't even finished college, and that was part of it. I decided not to go back to Tufts. And my mom's a wonderful. She's a wonderful person, but she's also a great physician. And, you know, my parents were so, so upset about me not going back. And I used to always joke with her that I make more money teaching tennis than a physician does seeing patients. So during that time, I left school, I wasn't at school, and, you know, I was trying to kind of make this. This dream come to life. And I went back to my clients and, you know, I was kind of pitching the deal with them, I was pitching the concept with them, and, you know, the basic feedback was, you know, I think that, you know, being young and ambitious, I think it resonated with them. But I think that they also felt that I got to finish school. So multiple, you know, a number of those, of those clients said to me, amit, you gotta go back to Tufts and you really, you need to finish school. And so I was like, okay, let me do that. So for. I had one year left to complete. And what I would do is I. Every Monday morning at 6am I would leave to go to Tufts. It was a three hour drive. And I would get there and I had to be on the court every Thursday morning at 7am Like, I had to be on that court. So I would drive there and drive back every Wednesday evening. And it was like this ritual for one year I did that. And. And it was because I wanted to keep my tennis business. I wanted to be able to build this tennis club and kind of keep this dream alive. So I made it barely through the year. I wasn't exactly the best student.

That might have compromised your social life, though. That sounds like a lot of hours. But you were.

I would tell you, you know what, it was funny. It was like actually the opposite. I made just many of my closest, closest friends during that year, one of which is actually my now investment partner in one of our projects, which is an entirely different story. But at any rate, I ended up spending the year doing this. I finished school, I went out, I kind of tried to put the pieces together for this club. And I was 23 years old and I hit a point where, you know, my family needed some assistance with their business and with what they were doing. And, you know, I kind of, I stopped, I kind of put the dream aside for at least a few years. And during that period of time, I was focused on more, you know, nuts and bolts, some of the more mundane elements of real estate that I think I had to learn, right? Because at the end of the day, it's great to have dreams, it's great to have a vision, and it's great to have all of those things. But in order to do anything real, you have to also have, you know, you have to build certain realities both around yourself and within yourself. So, you know, I wanted to really see something through and I wanted to be able to achieve something entrepreneurially that was very important for me. And I remember I was in India, this was in 2011. We're kind of fast forwarding a number of years, but it was 2000, it was 2011, and I was in India and I was. I really, I was so down because I'm just like, again, this thought of, when is my life? When Are things going to come together for me? And, and, you know, I just came to this realization that my. The issue that I had had for so long was really, it was a lack of focus, was that I was like focused on so many different things, so many different ideas. Whether it was in real estate or the Internet or this or that. It was just always kind of living in the world of ideas. And why I think I still do live in the world of ideas. It's in a very different manner now. But I said to myself, okay, you know what? I'm gonna go back to New York and I'm going to look to create something, create a real estate business. And I'm gonna be focused. Like, I'm gonna do this until I get somewhere, okay. Until I feel like, okay, you know what, I'm settled and I've created something. And I remember that when I had that sort of realization and that idea in my mind, that something clicked. I don't know how to describe it other than that. And I remember I got. I got on that plane, I went back to New York. It was again, end of 2011, and my plan was not development. So what happened was I had a couple of friends, one family friend and another friend who one ran. One was the founder of CityMD and the other was a ran Fred Perry, the retailers operations in the United States. So I had a very simple idea. I said, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna find vacant retail and I'm gonna put these two tenants in that retail. Very, very simple. I'm gonna create kind of immediate arbitrage via these tenants. So I came back to New York and I started to look at retail and I was having so much fun because I felt I was focused, number one. So I felt motivated and I felt that my energy was moving in one direction. And I had a lot of energy. I've always had a lot of energy. So when you focus energy, things start to happen, you know, they really do. But when you have a lot of energy but you're not focused, things are everywhere. And it's hard to actually see things kind of, kind of come to life. For many years, I'd been talking to a broker who's a wonderful broker. And I don't know if you know, Marty Isradi, Brian is Radi's uncle. But Marty is like super. Just old school and like, you know, such a good man. And I remember I used to call him from India, saying, oh, Marty, I want to buy a property this and that. He said, you know, Amit, I Probably shouldn't waste much time on you. You're not even, like, living here. But I like you, and I want to give you a chance. And so I'd always stayed in touch with Marty, okay. And he was just a jewel of a person. Okay. And he told me about, you know, I told him, I've got. I'm focused on development now. I had a few friends then that wanted to buy apartments. So I kind of put together a little. A little syndication type of deal. And I said, look, Marty, I've been looking at these small projects. I want to look at bigger things because, you know, I've got like six, six guys. They want to buy apartments. Let's do a syndication. Maybe we find a building that's 30,000 square feet. So he said, look, I've got a site for you. Why don't you reach out also to this developer? And he's very experienced and smart and successful. He's a little loose. He's kind of a little crazy, but why don't you reach out to him anyway and see how it goes? So I reached out to that developer, and he was right about all of those things, probably most right about how crazy the guy was. But it ended up being a situation where we kind of went after the deal that Marty had brought to the table. It was like a stalking horse type of transaction. Didn't end up happening. But what did happen was the developer that I was looking to. To partner with introduced me to my now partner, Safe. And what happened was that developer was. He was going on vacation. It was like the early summer was around June of 2012, and he was going on. He was going on holiday. He said, go meet Safe. So I went into Safe's office. I will never forget this day. I go into Safe's office and I shook his hand. I don't know why I had such a good feeling. He's such a good man. I felt that very like, genuinely. And I still remember, it was like three minutes later. In my mind, the thought was, the last project I ever developed in my life. I'm gonna do with this man. We didn't talk. We really, like. We met. We didn't even talk about partnering. He mentioned that he was a builder. So he mentioned that he had interest in development, and I knew that he was experienced builder. I didn't know all that. I found out later about the caliber of builder, the caliber of architect, and really more so than anything else, the caliber of man that he is. I didn't really. I, like, just met him and had Good feeling about him. So at the same time, when I'm meeting Safe, like, earlier in the day, I got a phone call from Deborah Lachance. I think, you know, Deborah, she used to be at Corcoran, and she ultimately handled sales and marketing for a lot of our. For at least a few of our projects. But she, you know, she had told me about this architect that was in town, and this architect was also a very wealthy guy. So she, you know, she told me about this architect that was in town, and she said to me that, you know, you should meet him. He wants to do projects in New York, and he's. He's a wealthy guy and this and that. And so I was. I was. I was excited. I was like, okay. And she told me who he was, and his name was Sue Chan. Okay? And he. I knew. I knew who he was. I knew all of his work. Like, and I'm not saying I knew his work. Like, I knew one or two buildings. I knew, like, obscure projects that he had designed, like the Singapore High Commission in Delhi, like, very, you know, random projects. I just had always liked what he did and what he had designed. So. So I found it. I was immediately like, wow, this is, like, super interesting. Okay, So I went and I met Safe. And I was sitting with Safe. I was mentioning to say if, yeah, Safe, you know, I'm going to go meet this architect after this who, you know, who wants to do some development projects. And so I left Safe's office. So the first day that I meet Safe, I go to the Phillips Club, and I meet such. And there at the Phillips Club, and I still remember Deborah. Deborah, there was another broker involved, and. And sue, and they were kind of like, you know, Deborah's, like, just an absolutely lovely person. But it was like a situation where sue, who's surely not a lovely person, was, you know, kind of arguing about signing the fee agreement. Oh, you're gonna meet this guy. You know, we want to make sure that we're, you know, that the compensation happens. And she had every Right. And so did the broker that was with her and every right to say this. And so sue was getting up to leave, right? He had told me, I have 10 minutes to speak to you. Okay? And 10 minutes to speak to you. And about four minutes were done in their. In their shuffle back and forth. So he had six minutes, and he had to catch a flight. And he was getting up, he said, you know what, guys? We'll deal with this next time. Amit, I'll meet you next time. And he Said, sue, please. I said, sue, please stay. Stay. You know, Sue, I love your work so much. You know, I really. And I told him the truth. I just told him how much I admired what he did. And I told him that we would be able to create something in this city that was really like, that was special. We would really find the opportunity that would allow him to do what I knew he really kind of dreamt of doing. And so one of my key lessons has always been that when you're looking to find an equity partner, you must find the equity partner that that's the aspirational equity partner.

It's such an incredible story and approach to the business. Cause I know it's not just about the dollars and cents and a lot of the developers. It's always okay, how can I cut costs? How can I, in some cases, maybe cut corners? And again, your passion for design and bringing something new to New York, and I mean, no small feat. I mean, two Pritzker Award winning, winning architects who had never built anything ground up in New York, I mean, both foreign. So you're bringing architects from other countries back here with you. So learning the landscape of New York, doing things that haven't been done before. I mean, your 152 Elizabeth project with Taro Anno in concrete, and you were kind enough to walk our team through that project and some of the design elements, the reflective pool of water in the, you know, the front and the just the attention to detail in the apartments. And there was things that I had never seen before. So, you know, what's amazing to me is that, you know, yes, at the end, you have to be able to, you know, justify the numbers and the project has to make a profit. Otherwise you can't, you know, capitalize it. But you know, what you've been able to achieve, again, coming to this business with almost no experience, some architectural landmarks, I mean, you have to be so pleased with that. I'd love to hear just a little bit more about what you said to Tado Anno, or what you said to Siza, who again, had never done a tower, let alone a project in New York. I know you're willing to travel to all the corners of the earth to get someone here, but how do you make that case? How do you get someone to really partner with you, right, to build these projects.

So one thing is this, right? It's great. We've done some nice projects, and I have a lot of pride and I really am very happy about some of the stuff we've been able to do. But I have to tell you, the one thing is this, is that, you know, I still, again, in those beginning, in that first year, my, the pride level and ego that I had then, it just over the years has gotten hit so hard that I realized over the years that I don't care what your vision is. I don't care how smart you think you are. I don't care if you think you're this great, anything you think you're. And I'm saying anyone, if anyone thinks they're there, anything real in this world, it's all nonsense. Because in order to do something great, you need great people around you. And the thing that's been a blessing for me is that I've had that. I mean, I've had a great partner, I've had great members of my team, three of which are actually on this line now. People that are far more and far smarter than I am. Far. You know, just at the end of the day, I'm someone who has ideas, I'm someone who has a vision. But I'm surrounded by people that are very much gifted at various things that they do and they allow these ideas and all these different things within me to come to life. But at the end of the day, it's definitely not me. It's not me, it's not my vision. It's nothing like that and all. And I think the faster someone realizes that, the better off they are and the less pain they also will experience. You know, it's the lessons about pain. But anyway, let me tell you about. About Ando. Okay, so we identified this asset. It was a corner of Kenmare and Elizabeth and it was. Excuse me, get some water. It's what is 152 Elizabeth now. And I love this site. I really felt it was interesting. And we found. I will kind of switch gears into the other side of the brain. We found a very interesting loophole. So we kind of analyzed the zoning code and I can speak of it now because there really aren't sites that qualify for this at this point. But we found a loophole in the zoning code such that in sub area C in the special Little Italy district in Manhattan, it's a very complex zoning resolution. And so what happened was we had looked at that resolution and we had gone through the different sub areas and know our site being in sub area C. It's very strange because there wasn't an underlying far that was mentioned in the code. So there was like for residential. It didn't speak to an far. And I was like, wow, that's really interesting. And it spoke to lot coverage and a height restriction. So it spoke to the envelope itself. And so we were looking at this site and I was like, I learned about this on another site where we were able to get a determination while we were in contract on something. And that deal didn't end up happening. But I kind of learned this little tool. And when I saw Elizabeth street, what really stood out was the fact that it was 60ft in height and it was five stories. It was 60ft in height. It was a parking garage. So when I looked at it, I realized, I said, you know what? We can build full lot here. The condition is such that because it's a pre. It's an existing building, we could do an alteration. And when you do an alteration, you have to keep about 26% of the existing, the previous structure, and it's viewed as an alteration. So we would be able to build full lot on five floors. And so Elizabeth Streets, it's our little baby. And it's 32,000ft. The floors are each about 4200ft. When you have 60% lot coverage like we do at the penthouse, it's 2500. It's about 2500ft. Okay, so 4200 times. Times 60%. So if a standard reading of the code would have led us to believe that we were supposed to have 2,500 square feet per floor for those five floors. But because of this reading of the code, we ended up with 4,200 square feet per floor for those floors. And so we were able to buy the land at a basis that was justifiable. And it was very hard at that time to find land. We closed on that in spring of 2014. It was very, very hard to find anything in terms of land. I still remember everyone thought we were crazy. And I also remember when the project started and we first announced it, we announced Ando was the architect. I don't know if it's still there, but it was like real deal or curbed. Some wise ass. The first comment or second comment, he writes, the calculations that solved for what our residential buildable square footage should have been on the basis that the site was a 3.44 resi far which it could have been interpreted as that based on it being in the Special Italy. Special Italy district. So I still remember seeing that and I just, I laughed because these are the ways that you can create value in development. And again, it wasn't like it was me that invented that idea. We had consultants and A wonderful expediter that helped us to kind of think about that and interpret the code. But it's what allowed Elizabeth street to even kind of be a possibility. And once it was a possibility and we were negotiating the contract, I said, we got to figure out who the architect is here. And what I loved about Elizabeth street was it's kind of at the heart of Nolita. It was the heart of downtown. It was an intersection. You know, it was a point of convergence. And why? Because it was where Delancey met Kenmare. So it was from the Williamsburg Bridge all the way to soho. And we kind of sat at this unique corner where even though a small building, 85ft in height, building could have a real impact. And when I thought about Nolita, when I thought about downtown Manhattan, I thought of the word that comes to my mind was just industrial. Like from a theme, from a concept perspective, industrial. And when I thought about, okay, what's the word that industrial is? I thought of concrete, right? And in architecture, you know, for people who are interested in contemporary architecture, when you say concrete, someone will oftentimes think of Tadao Ando, who's like a master of. Of contemporary architecture, of concrete. And, you know, he's very similar. He's like, almost like I say it a lot, but he's like a Frank Lloyd Wright or Le Corbusier or Mies van der Rohe of our generation. Our other architect, Siza, is also similar. These are like old masters. And he's not the kind of guy that you call for a commercial type of development. But I said, you know what? Let me. Let me call him. And I started to call his office, and there was. There was someone there that answered that, you know, New York piqued his interest a little bit. And, you know, they didn't, you know, show that much interest. But what happened was I went to Madrid to meet investors, okay? So we had tied up the site. We were in contract. We were hard on the contract. I was terrified because I was just like, oh, my God, we don't have the equity in place. What's going to happen? This and that. And so I was on the hunt. I got to find the equity, we got to find the debt. We only have a few months to see this thing come to pass. So I go, I'm in Spain. I'm meeting with these investors, and I get a phone call that the head of Ando's office is going to be in New York. So I said, you know what? Let me. I'm going to. I have to Go back to New York. And I left my meetings, I flew back. I remember I was running late and I got the phone on the plane and I was calling the head of the office and his name, I used to call him Yanno san. And I said, yano san, I'm so sorry, I'm running late. Because Japanese culture has very specific rules. Let's say they're like rules and regulations. If you don't follow them, you're gonna have a real problem when you're dealing with someone like Anderson. So I got there, it was late at night, had my bags in hand. I just came from the airport and I shook the hand of the architect. And he was there with an art dealer who later became a good friend, who's best friends with Ando san. And they shook my hand. The first thing they said is, why Ando? Like, it was very, it was fairly aggressive. I mean, he's like, why Ando? You know, And I told them, I said, look, I want to build a seminal piece of architecture. I get it, this is a commercial project. But I want to build something that really matters here, something that is of a grade of quality and integrity. That is not what New York development is really exactly known for. And I think they appreciated the answer. They started to speak together in Japanese. I didn't understand a word they were saying. And they said, you got to go to. You got to go to Osaka. You're going to have to meet. You're going to have to meet the master. Because Anderson will never, he will never come and meet you for any type of, like, you know, any project. You always have to go to the feet of the master. And, you know, look, I'm just an ordinary person. Giorgio Armani had to do that. Tom Ford had to do that. Bono had to do that because he's doing Bono's home, Francois Pinault, all these different, very high profile people had to go and they, they have to go through that. There's like a ritual to it, you know, so. So I told him, I said, look, I got my bags, I'll go right now. It's very similar to how with Michael. I gotta go right now, right now. So he was, they were like, no, no, no, you go, go next week. Go next week. I said, okay, let me go next week. So a few days later, I, you know, I wanted to get him a gift. I wanted to get Ando san a gift out of respect. And I went to the MoMA store to find him a gift. And I remember I asked the lady that worked there if she had a suggestion for an architect. I didn't tell her who the architect was, but she asked me, I told her it's Tadao Ondo. And she said, I don't know very much about architecture, but I know who Tadao on do is. And there's nothing in the store that you could buy that would be an appropriate gift. So I'm like, oh man, what am I going to get him? And I go to the Taschen store, the bookstore, and he had a big book about his work that was there. And I saw this big book on Muhammad Ali called the World's Greatest. A heavy, heavy book. Heavier than my bags. And I got it for him because before Ando san had become an architect, he was actually a truck driver and a boxer. He actually fought professionally for at least a number of fights. And he's self taught architect. He didn't actually even have formal training. So I took this big book with me. I fly to Osaka with it in my hand and I still remember I got to his office and I give him this book. I present it to him and we had a rapport. There was like a. There was a connection that could be felt, like it was a real connection and it was amazing. They had done a full screen foam model of all of downtown Manhattan. The second day I was with him, he sketched the building, which is, aside from a little change in window sizes, is the actual building that's sitting there today. I went to look at all of his work and I came back on like Friday or Saturday. Friday. Went to his office and I said to him, what are, you know, what are our next steps? And he said, well, you know, we're gonna, we'll continue to consider the project and we'll keep you posted. And I said to him, I said, anderson, I'm not gonna leave your office until you commit to this project. So he was very kind and he said, well, you know, then I'm. He said it in Japanese and his translator was like, well, then I'll have to, I'll have to do this project with you. So it was, it was really, really exciting and it was such a. It opened the world for me in a way and for safe. It opened the world for us collectively in a very, very unique way and gave us a little bit of a calling card too, with a lot of people. So that's how Ando happened.

Wow. Thank you so much for sharing your stories and such an amazing journey. And I know our listeners will really appreciate this. So, you know, only have a minute or two left. But I mean, any advice you would give someone who's looking to get into the business, I mean, your story is.

Such a terrible minute that regardless, I got something very, very important. It's probably the most important is it's a lot easier to start a real estate business when you can find a great partner. It just you have some, like you have a partner in crime. You're able to kind of, you know, work things out, think through things together, you know, bump head sometimes. But if it's the right partner, you push each other. You kind of put the fire under each other. But if you partner with the wrong person, your life will be a living hell. So it's better to get to get a feeling for someone, understand who they are from other people that knew them or other people that had experiences with them and hear what those people say and be open to what they say. Because having a great partner, there's nothing like it. But I can tell you also having a bad partner, a partner that is the wrong partner, is torture. So those are important words. I promise you. You trust me that those are very important.

Well, you've given some incredible advice for our listeners, not only about choosing the right partner, but having your bags ready, you know, being willing to travel anywhere.

In the world, whatever it takes, and.

Not taking no for an answer. So no doubt at all why you have the success you've had. So thank you so much again for joining us today and sharing your story.

Thank you so much. Okay, James, you're welcome.

James Nelson of Real Estate Investing live from New York.

Thank you for tuning in this week to Real Estate Investing live from New York. Please join your host, James Nelson for another program next Tuesday at 7pm in New York, 4pm Pacific Time on the Voice America Business Channel. All shows are rebroadcast Wednesday mornings at 7:00am Eastern Eastern Time, 4:00pm Pacific Time, as well as always on demand. We'll talk again next week.