Coaching Insights with Bob Knakal and Rob Santomassimo

Welcome. This is the Insider's Edge to Real Estate Investing with James Nelson, the principal and head of Avison Young's US Investment Sales Group and his co host Kim Troller from his investment sales team. In this program you'll learn game changing strategies to outperform the market. James will teach you how to source, execute and capitalize on the best real estate opportunities in New York and around the world. Now here are your hosts.

Welcome to episode number 229 of the Insider's Edge to Real Estate Investing. This is James Nelson, a co host, but this is a special episode so I will not have Kim Troller with me. Today I'm going to be having a conversation with two of my friends, mentors and where I began my career with Bob Nackel and Paul Massey at Massie Nackle Realty. And with us our broker coach, Rod Santomosimo. We're going to be talking about coaching insights today. You're going to hear about strategies to move the needle for brokers and investors in this episode from investment sales icon Bob Nackle, founder of BK Real Estate Advisors and coaching pioneer Rod Santomssimo, founder and President of the Mossimo Group. We discuss strategies including accountability, specialization, market presence and most importantly, relationship. You're going to hear about how Bob increases income and gained family time after engaging with a coach and why exclusive brokers and maximizing exposure create wins for sellers and how AI is changing the real estate game. Rod and Bob also offer input on what to do next for investors and brokers and for the right mindset to have. And last but not least, you're going to be hearing about the Global CRE Broker Summit that we're going to be streaming live this month out in Vegas. You're going to want to listen to this episode so you can figure out how to join that as well. And as always, @james nelson.com we'll share the show notes how to Connect with Bob with Rod how to Register for this Summit we're going to have a word from our sponsor and we'll get right into that interview with Bob Nackel and Rod Santomasimo.

Avis and Young's United States Investment Sales platform executes on multifamily office retail development and specialty asset transactions across top US Markets. As experienced leaders in the industry, our integrated national team is here to help you make informed investment decisions. Whether advising on your current holdings or identifying new opportunities nationwide. Our one unified platform is built on unparalleled collaboration and connectivity across 120 full service offices around the world. Giving clients direct access to the deepest pools of capital. We put our clients first. Delivering tailor made strategies to achieve superior results.

All right, welcome everyone to a special edition of the Insider's Edge to real estate investing. I'm your host, James Nelson. And with us today, two legends in the business. My friends, my mentors. Bob Nackle who I started my career with now well beyond 25, 26 years ago. Bob is the founder of BKRE, a real estate advisors. And we have Rod Santa Massimo who is founder and president of the Massimo Group. Gentlemen, welcome. So excited for this conversation.

James, so great to be with you. You know, I, I always tell people I feel like you're my little brother in the business. And I have to say, couldn't be more proud of what you've become and what you've done in the business, what you continue to accomplish and what I know you will be accomplishing in the future. And thank you so much for having me on. And again, kudos to you for everything you've, you've done and accomplished. Couldn't be more proud of you, my boy. Thank you.

Thank you, Rod. It's not obligatory, Rod, that you have to try to top that. But feel free.

I can see my older brother, James. We're good.

So, gentlemen, we're going to be meeting in Las Vegas on Tuesday, November 18th. We'll have some time together, but we've got a big day coming up for the Global CRE Broker Summit, Wednesday, November 19th. So mark your calendars. I know we have a lot of brokers who listen and watch this show. We also have a lot of investors. So for the brokers out there, this is a can't miss. So Rod, maybe just give us a little background on what the Masimo Group is and your membership. Bob is so fortunate to connect with you all years back when you included him in your first book and talk about this community now and talk about what's happening on November 19th.

Yeah.

The Mothman Group is the world's premier coaching organization specifically for commercial real estate brokers. We've had the last 17 years working with brokers, helping them get to high six, seven and even eight figures in their income. And that's, that's really what we do, James. We just work with commercial real estate brokers and helping them build the business and life that they desire. And I've had the privilege of working with both you and Bob for a long time. You both work at other members of our organization. We put you out as our poster boys. Look who we work with. So we're fortunate to have this relationship with you. We truly honor your trust in us. And then on November 19, we are actually putting together some of the world's greatest brokers to share with the world. As of this morning, we have registrants from obviously Mexico, Canada, Japan, Australia, Netherlands, Denmark, Germany, Israel, and the list goes on and on. So these brokers are coming together to hear from Bob And James and 10 other amazing brokers to share exactly what they do so the brokers can as well and excel in their careers. That's all happening November 19th at the Global Siri Broker Online Summit. No travel, minimum cost, maximum impact. We can't wait.

It's going to be simulcast in many different languages, right?

Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Bob. Yes, it's. It's translated real time in the language of your choice. It's going to be. It's. If we're using a studio in Las Vegas, 4K. It's me like you're there. It's incredible. We can't wait.

Wow. I definitely can't wait. Not just to share some of the things that I've learned from both of you and to share that with the community, but I always learn a ton as well. And, and I feel like that that was the inform infomercial hair club for men. Not none of my, just a member. I'm also involved. But you know, here I continue to get coaching from Rod from Massimo Group. And it's been such an incredible thing. Bob, maybe talk about how you originally met Rod because you were featured in Brokers who Dominate. So maybe talk about that first interaction and the whole idea of getting coaching. Why? Why would you want to coach?

Yeah, well, you know what, James? It was, it was great. I think Rod called me in 2011. I get this call from this guy, Rod Santomosimo, and he's like, hey, Bob, I'm writing a book. I don't know who you are, I've never heard of you, but everybody I'm speaking to is telling me I have to include you in the book that I'm writing called Brokers who Dominate. So what broker on earth wouldn't want to be in a book called Brokers who Dominate, Right? So of course I agree to be in the book. And we proceed to have several phone interviews. And I think it was the fourth or fifth phone interview we're doing it. So Rod, tell me a little bit about you. How many books have you written? You know, what type of books do you write? He's like, I never wrote a book before. This is my first book. I said, what do you do? He said, I'm a broker coach. I said, a broker coach? What the heck is a broker coach? Not knowing that that even was an industry. Went on to tell me about what he did. And the thought occurred to me, I said, you know what, Michael Jordan has a coach, Tiger woods has a coach. Olympic athletes have coaches. What the heck. And initially the objective was to make the same amount of money I was making. I was happy with the money I was making. I said, rod, you know, I have a wife at the time, a three year old daughter, want to spend more time with my family, have me make the same amount of money, but give me more free time. And that was the objective, starting out. And what happened through working with Rod, it reignited my passion for the business. I ended up spending more time with my family, three years later, tripled the money I was making and it's been a great ride ever since. We've, we've spoken every week for 15 years. And as long as Rod will put up with me, he'll keep coaching me for the rest of my career. Fortunately, I'm 63 years old. I think I only have about 20 or 30 years to go in his business. But if he'll keep coaching me, he will, I will love for him to keep coaching me until I, they put me in the ground because I will never retire. I know I, my wife Cynthia, I tell her all the time, I said, look, when they put me in the ground, I'm going to have deals on the contracts. We're going to have to go collect those commissions. But Rod hopefully will be my coach. But that was the start.

Wow.

Well, Rod, I don't think you can get much better of an endorsement than that. I think as soon as he said I tripled my income, you probably people aren't going to sign up for that. I don't know what to tell them. But you know, Rod, what are kind of the top two or three things that you all do to really help? Because these are self selecting brokers, these are already very successful people who are now investing in themselves to take their business to the next level. But what is it? If you really had to distill it down to a couple of things that really helps your clients take things to their next level. And by the way, for investors out there, people who aren't brokers, I've got to imagine that some of these things are going to apply to everyone for success in business and life.

Well, sure, but James, let me turn this around if I can and I'M going to ask you and Bob this question, so I'll ask you first, James. James, what are the top three reasons that you've been a mosquito client for over a decade? What are the top three things that you get out of coaching?

Well, at the very most basic level, I think the accountability is huge, right? And you know how we're wired where you don't, you don't have to get us, you don't have to get us motivated, right? We want to go out there, but sometimes we're going out in 10 different directions. And I think very simply, kind of the block and tackling aspect, the accountability, the follow through is huge. But, but it's become so much more for me and now that I've taken on this national role, growing not just the New York business, but, but in the other top markets across the country to have a sounding board, right? And to really, you know, because I come up with a lot of ideas, right? Some of them are okay, some of them are better than others. But really to help focus in on, okay, this is, you know, this is really where you need to focus your time and then really to help develop a plan around that, right? And so I think that's been really critical and then putting it into action. I mean, Rod, I quote your book knowing isn't doing so many times on this show as well. Because I'll tell people, hey, you're going to hear a lot of great stuff today, but if you just take notes and then you just kind of put it in, you know, file it away, that's not going to do you any good. So at the end of the day, it's kind of taking these ideas and putting them into action. I don't know, Bob, what would you say?

Yeah, I would totally agree with what you said, James. The accountability is part of it, the sounding board. I mean, I will tell you, over the years, back in the Massey Nakal days, so many great ideas came out of Paul and I saying to each other, hey, this is a wacky idea, but what do you think about this? And sometimes they were really wacky crazy ideas that we never followed through on. Some were good ideas, but now Rod fills that position for me. But additionally, I think no matter how good we all are or think we are, everybody can do better. And if anybody thinks they have a monopoly on good ideas, they're sadly mistaken. So because the Massimo group coaches brokers all over North America, you know, if some kid in Kansas City comes up with a better way to do a certain aspect of the business, I want to know about it before anybody else does. And I think if I work with Massimo, I am going to find out about that new technique, that new strategy, that new tactic before anybody else does. And when you start implementing things first, generally that's a good position to be in. So it's knowledge, it's accountability. You know, all of these things are part of the reason why I get such great benefit out of the coaching.

Rod, I appreciate both from both of you. Here's the three things you asked James. Number one is most brokers, and I will say, bk, you're more than James right now. But most brokers just love the deal. They love the deal, right? And at least we hope they do. That's what they're doing. But they don't realize they're business owners because they're all business owners. So the first thing we do is structure this as a business. Let's figure out. And you'll be a CEO, we'll be the COO as a coach, and we'll figure out how to structure this business so we can make more consistent income without working as hard. That'd be number one. Number two, as BK said, we're the. We're the only, you know, organization in the world, true organization in the world. All our competition is one person. We just have a different model. Not worse, not better. I think we're better, but we're a true organization that specializes and you both understand value, that specializes in commercial real estate brokerage. And third, this true with investors as much as it is with brokers. If you think about when you started, you start being an investor or start being a broker and where you are today, right. If you knew everything you knew now when you started, when you've gotten to where you are faster, yes or no?

100%.

Of course.

100%.

You were at a lot faster. So if that's true, then you're not. You don't know how you get to get the next level. If someone, a coach who's been there and understands it can tell you quicker. Wow, that was weird. Let me turn that one off. Can tell you quickly what does happen there. Can tell you quickly how to get to where you need to go. Well, then that will get you where you need to go, get you more quickly. And I'm going to. My camera just went awol. There we go.

So hopefully the AI has not taken over your camera. What we. We are now in a scavenger hunt. Scavenger hunt.

My camera is a mon.

It's a good thing that you don't have any contraband there? I didn't. I didn't see any loaded weapons or. I. I don't know. Maybe the AI is gonna.

Guys, I am going to. I'm gonna kill the camera. I'm gonna try to if I can, but. But I'm here. Okay? So I'm here. I apologize. My camera.

Hey, hey, look, you know, I think we've all learned how to improvise and roll with things, right?

And so there you go. We accelerate to where you want to go. Just like an investor or broker, if, you know, look, I surround myself with people that make a lot more money than me because I want to make a lot more money. It's just that simple. That's what it is.

So. So, gentlemen, now to shift the conversation a little bit, I'd like to talk about the impact of social media on your business. And, Rod, you've become an expert not just on. On that, but the digital aspect and implementing AI So I want to get to that. But, Bob, you have taken your social media to. I mean, to say the next level would be an understatement. And so. And if I'm not mistaken, this is not something that you've been doing for 10, 20 years. I mean, this is relatively recent, but you've gone essentially all in, in many ways, not just on Instagram, LinkedIn, X, but you're getting incredible results from it. And. And so would like to hear about that. I mean, how do you view that platform? How do you engage with it? And how can our listeners understand how to leverage it for their own businesses?

Sure. Well, I think the. To. To fully understand my perspective on it, let's go to 40,000ft and understand that social media. I've been on social media, as you said, since January of 2023, so relatively short period of time relative to how much long some people have been on. On social media. But social media is but one of many ingredients in the mosaic of marketplace presence that Rod always preaches. And market presence is important, and many, many people misunderstand what market presence is all about. We're intermediary. We're brokers. Our objective is to get the best results for our clients. We only represent sellers. We only work on exclusives. We have to get the highest prices possible. And so everything we do is designed around helping the client. I believe that the more we have market presence, the more prospecting calls we make, the more email blasts we send out, the more text blasts we send out, the more hard mail we create and send out, the more Networking events we go to. The more content we create, the more social media we're on. All of these things are part of creating market presence. And if you follow me, on social media, you know, I always say it's not who you know, it's who who knows you. Why is that important? Because there are 165,000 investment properties in the four boroughs of New York, not including Staten Island. No disrespect to Staten island, but it functions more like Jersey than New York. There are 250,000 people that own those properties. And I make a lot of calls every week. So do you, James. You can't call 250,000 people, so you need incoming. And when you are out, when you are active on social media or you're doing networking or you're doing any of these market presence initiatives, what you're doing is increasing the probability that someone is going to contact you that could, number one, pay a higher price for a property you're selling than anybody else. That helps your client introduce you to somebody that will give you a strategy or a technique that's going to help you get a better result for your client that's in the best interest of the client, or somehow directly or tangentially going to put you in the way of information that's going to help your client get a better result. It's about the client. I think old co had been really pissed off at me because I was so my market presence was over the top. But you know what, I was just trying to help my clients. And it's not about me, it's about the client and always has been. And social media has been unbelievable in terms of the opportunities that it had presented. And I have to tell you, anytime I do anything, I kind of go all in on it, get very, very immersed. And I've done that with social media. It's important to realize that it's only one of several things you need to do for market presence. But for the first year I was doing it, it's like, you know, this is kind of fun and everything, but is it really going to produce business opportunities? And since the, the first year anniversary, it seems like I'm, I'm able to very accurately connect dots between business opportunities that are coming in and what we're doing online. Social media, the website I'm working with Ed Winslow, who is, is implementing SEO strategies on every piece of content you see that we do. Whether it's a tweet, a post on LinkedIn or something on our website, everything is SEO oriented, such that go on Perplexity and put in who's the best development site broker in New York City. And my name is all over the first three pages of it. Whether I am the best development site broker or not. Somebody looking me up that way or looking up a broker to sell a development site will, will be exposed to that. And I've gotten directly, I got a $55 million development site listing directly because someone inherited a property, didn't know anything about the market, searched on Perplexity and I got that listing. And there's example after example of where business is coming in because people are being exposed to me through social media. And I think more and more people are going to the Internet, to the web, to Perplexity, to chat, to wherever to get information. And the more visible you are, the more business opportunities you're going to get in the way of. So again, it all comes down to the client doing a better job for the client. Market presence is not about you, it's about doing a better job helping the client. And if people don't understand that, that's why they get upset that you're doing all these things to, to create market presence. But again, social media, it's an important ingredient, but it's only one ingredient in everything you need to do to achieve a great market presence.

Yeah, I would fully agree with that. And the other thing I would add is that it's also amazing that these online communities are also, you know, now becoming, going offline and in person and we were at that great conference and shout out to Ken Ashley, who is Rod, who you know and has been featured in your book and their CREI Summit and what an incredible network of people who really want to help each other. I thought that was really, you know, again you talk about, you know, the Massimo network and how your brokers share best practices. So it's quite the community. So Rod AI because certainly, you know, a tool, I mean our business is evolving so quickly and you were really on top of this very early on. No surprise there. I mean just utilizing it to help with your social media strategy alone is just one idea. But what is it? I was at a panel yesterday on AI and inevitably there's a lot of talk about just using ChatGPT. But what are some of the other things that your brokers are doing, leveraging AI to find success in business?

Well, I think especially from an investor perspective, they have to prove to their clients their prospects, hopefully their clients, but they can fulfill their goals, their clients goals certainly better than anybody else. Right. But Just as important lately, it's faster than anybody else. I mean, speed will, will be one of the key variables to get something done. If an investor wants to sell an asset, he or she may not want to wait six months, a year anymore. And frankly, gentlemen, they don't have to. With the right tools, brokers today can use tools to get to the market. Bob just said, I don't want to make 250,000 calls, right? Well, guess what? Next week I'm making 60,000 calls in one week on a certain initiative. We are, right? It's just what we are. When the phone gets responded, the AI agent will answer all the questions that those individuals in our case, they're not investors, they're brokers. But in brokers cases, investors will be able to talk and they can right now talk to AI agents to get the answers they want on a listing, on a lease, on whatever. So I think the number one way brokers today are, and it's just that they haven't figured out yet. But our clients, we're preaching this and we're helping them, we built the tools to do this. We allow our clients to get to the market in minutes and days and not weeks and months. And I think, gentlemen, that's going to be a key differentiator moving forward. The brokers who can take those tools to their investors with the brokers that win more opportunities.

Wonderful. Okay, so now we'd like to transition a little bit. And again, a lot of the listeners to the show are investors. They're interacting with brokers constantly. Brokers, whether I want to get to the differences of on market, off market, and all the considerations if you're a seller or a buyer, but let's start even. And I actually dedicate a chapter in my book about cultivating broker relationships, so I mean, it might seem obvious, but you know, Bob, why would an investor want to cultivate a relationship with a broker? And you know, for the successful investors out there that are looking to buy opportunities, you know, what, what's the best way for them to engage with the brokerage community?

I think number one is, is create relationships where you form a friendship with, with the broker as a, as a principal, your, your deal flow is basically coming from the brokerage community. And I think every investor wants to be the one that gets the first call. You know, generally we all, we, we work with people we like. And if an investor can create a relationship with the broker where the broker likes that person and you have a great working relationship and you know, maybe you go above and beyond to do things that other people don't do. I still remember in 1986, Benjamin Arier paid me two days before closing my brokerage commission on a deal. I remember in the, in the mid-90s, Peter Armstrong paid me on a deal that didn't even close because he said, bob, you know, you did such a great job. It's my fault this deal didn't close. I'm going to pay you a part of the commission anyway. These, this, these things happened decades ago. I still remember them like they happened yesterday. If either of those guys called me and wanted anything, I would drop everything and help them. So it's a matter of treating people with respect, with courtesy. They're building relationships, building friendships, getting to connect, and I think putting yourself in a position where, you know, oftentimes, James, you know when most, most sellers believe their property is worth more than it is, by the time you educate them and market the property and get all kinds of feedback to get them down to the right price, sometimes there are two, three or four people at the same price. How does the seller decide who to go with? Often they ask the broker who's more likely to close, who has the best reputation, who is the right person. And sometimes the principles are really indistinguishable. So the inclination is if you really like somebody and they've treated you really well, maybe go with this person because they really, they're good people and the seller doesn't know. They, they want to just get, you know, they want to get the, the best price and terms and execution. If, if people are relatively at the same price, you're going to push the person who, who you have a good relationship with. And so as I always say, we're not in the real estate business, we're in the information and relationship business. And I think it's the same for principals. They, they want to rely on good quality information and make decisions based on information and be more informed based on information. But the relationship part of it is such an important part of what we all do every day.

Rod, what would you say to all that? And I mean, again, you've worked with so many brokers and you kind of see how they choose to conduct business and how they work with different types of buyers, sellers. What are some of the do's and don'ts out there? What's kind of the recipe for a good relationship between a broker and a client?

You know, we have, we have broker clients who are always traveling the world with their investor clients is that, that's a fact. Right. They're going on fishing trips, they're going camping. Their families are getting together. Now, I'm not suggesting that every relationship is going to go to that level. I'm not. But the focus, obviously is on the relationship versus the transaction. 100%. However, I think of, well, Bob. Bob's great friend Don Trevin. Right. There is no doubt what Don's investment criteria is. He lets the world know he does. And so the broach community has a clear indication in order to bring Don value here is what he's looking for.

Right.

So Don gets exposure to so many more deals. So I think one thing the investor can do is why are you keeping secret what you're looking for? Are you worried about being bombarded with brokers?

That.

That's not the issue.

Right.

You're going to lose out by keeping what you're looking for tight to the vest. You should share with everyone exactly what you're looking for. And you'll get it.

Rod, sorry to interrupt. There's a little bit of a lag, I think, on your side. But I think the point you were looking to make is that for investors, it's important that they make their intentions. Now, I think you were referring to Don Tapman, strip mall guy. And talk about someone who has really kind of put their investment criteria on stage. And some might say, you know, Don, you're giving away all your secrets to investing. Right. And Bob, in the same way you've talked about tips for brokers, you say, why? Why are you educating your competition? But I think, you know, no doubt the universe that Don has created, talk about getting inbounds. I mean, if someone has a retail strip center for sale, they'd be crazy not to call.

Don, if you're selling a strip mall, why wouldn't you call strip mall down? I know, but Don, Donnie, brilliant, brilliant marketing, brilliant marketer. But I will also say one thing that's really important and I really appreciate, as a broker, something that investors can do is give feedback. If I offer a property to somebody or I send somebody an email saying, hey, we're selling 1, 2, 3 Main street, and they just write back, no interest. You know, it's like they're saying, f you. It's like, you know, if I. If somebody says to me, hey, Bob, I'm hungry, and I say, oh, would you like a slice of pizza? Oh, no, thanks. Would you like a sandwich? Oh, no, thanks. Would you like a muffin? No, thanks. Would you like a piece of bread? No, thanks. Why don't you want any of that, oh, I'm gluten intolerant. Well, why didn't you tell me that after I offered you the pizza? I wouldn't have offered you the three things I just offered you. In the same way, when an investor says I'm not interested, that property is too big for me, it's too small for me. It's not the right type of property. I only try to buy X or I'm only looking in this certain neighborhood or what have you. That is so valuable because that helps us give feedback to our client to let them know how the market's responding to just say, hey, I called Fred and Fred's not interested. That is of no value whatsoever. But if Fred says no, I'm not interested because the property is in, not in the condition I'm looking for, it's too big, or, you know, I don't like that, that the fact that the tenancy is this way or that way, that's real valuable information. Then we say, oh, I love calling Fred because Fred gives me good feedback that I can then pass along to my client. He's making my job easier to tell me, no, I'm not interested without giving a reason. I have to track you down because I'm not going to just tell my client Fred's not interested. But he wouldn't tell me why. He didn't respect me enough to tell me why he's not interested. I have to call him three times to find out why he's not there so I could give my client a valuable piece of information. Fred is doing me a big favor and I love Fred. If he tells me I'm not interested for X, Y and Z. So you want to be good to brokers, give them a reason why you're not interested. Also, the next time I have a property just like that, Fred, I'm not your time or my time. So that is a very, very important part of what investors can do to ingratiate themselves to the brokerage community.

So I'd like to now talk about, and I think on the sell side, we all fully, wholeheartedly agree on the benefits of exclusive sell side reputation. I mean, Bob, what you and Paul did when you founded Massie Nacal to really reinvent brokerage, right? The notion of maximizing exposure, very simple. The more that people know about an opportunity, the more interest you're going to get and the higher price, right? So I, I, we're not going to see any, hear any disagreement here today on maximizing exposure on an exclusive side. But I will ask you know, and maybe, Rod, I'll throw this to you because, I mean, you certainly work with some brokers out there that are still doing off market or running around with buyers. What, what would be, Is there any way to poke holes in that? Why, why would an owner ever think of selling without a broker?

I do not coach brokers who work on the buy side or the I'll do whatever side. I totally disagree with that. You, you want to control the deal because it's better for your client, pure and simple. So we don't, we don't push that at all. We wouldn't.

Yeah, so, so Bob, let's talk about it from the buy side though, because, and we used to get this compliment all the time, you know, hey, you guys do such a great job of selling. I'd never buy from you. You're too expensive. What would you say to that? Because if every buyer told you that, then you'd never sell anything. I mean, there are two sides of that.

Well, you know, James, we would have to reconfigure the way we worked if everybody said that.

Right.

But the fact is that that's maybe 10 or 20% of the market. But what you failed to mention is it's always followed up by, hey, I'll never ever buy anything from you because you get too high prices. But if I ever sell, you'll be my first call. And that really is the key ingredient. I don't think you can be all things to all people. You have to figure out what you are. More than ever, I believe specialization is changing the world. And, and I always said specialization is the way to differentiate yourself. That differentiation leads to a competitive advantage. Back in the old days, 80s, 90s, it was, it was the geographic territory system, which, which because of the opaqueness and inaccuracy of publicly available information, was an easy way and a great way to differentiate yourself today, where you can find out everything about everybody online. Information is very accurate and there's so much of it. I think product specialization is the way to go. And I'll give you two examples that I think really illustrate this fact. So let's say last week you're a generalist and you sell three properties. You sold an apartment building, a retail property and an office building. This week I'm pitching an office building. That office building owner wants to hear everything about the office building. I saw last week, couldn't care less about the retail property in the apartment building. So two thirds of the time I spent last week closing deals is not helping me this week at all. If I sold three office buildings last week and I'm pitching an office building this week, 100% of my time is accretive towards getting this week's assignment. Huge, huge benefit. And if you are saying that you specialize in one thing, I think it is so compelling. You're an athlete, you swim all the time. Let's say you're swimming, you tear your rotator cuff in your shoulder and you go see two surgeons and one says, james, I got you covered. I do shoulders, I do elbows, wrists, knees, hips. I could do it all. I'm great, I'm gonna do it all. And you go see another guy and he says, james, I only do shoulder ACLs. I've done 9,236 operations, all shoulder ACLs. Who you going to have do your surgery?

Right.

The specialist, of course.

And another great look. I mean, my practice now is more hyper focused and hyper specialized than it's ever been. I do development sites, redevelopment properties and user properties. All very synergistic, all very complementary. And all deal with vacant property, basically. And what I met with two clients, two people own the same property and they were going to hire a land broker from one of the big four. And I said to them, I said, you know, why would. Did you ever have work done on your house? Did you ever have renovation work done on your house? They said, yeah, yeah, we renovate our bathroom. I said, okay, well maybe your contractor said they're going to show up at 9 o' clock on Thursday and it's 12 o' clock on Thursday. They didn't show up. 3 o' clock Thursday and 4 o' clock they go, oh, I got tied up on a job, I'll be there tomorrow at nine. And then they came and worked two hours a day. And some days didn't show up. And it took much longer to get your bathroom renovated than you thought. I said, that contract is a part timer. If you hire a land broker from one of the big firms, they're selling office buildings, they're selling retail, they're selling apartment building, they're a part timer. I'm a full Timer. I'll work 12 hours a day, every day until we get your job done. Why would you hire somebody that's only going to work a couple of hours a day for you? We got the assignment. $180 million site. That's a big difference. That's the power of specialization.

So, Rod, getting back to this theme of specialization, because there's a lot of ways that you can get involved in this business. And we also get a lot of students who listen to this show. So, you know, obviously Bob and I have spent our careers doing investment sales, but you coach a lot of other real estate professionals. What are other ways to get into this business?

Sure, you could manage property. You can do any type of property type. Retail, multifamily, industrial, medical office land. You could lease, you could sell, you could represent buyers. I mean, this is a beautiful industry. It truly is. And I think, James, when people start out, they're not going to know what they, what they should be doing or even want to be doing or have the ability to do. So when you start out, you should be a journalist, feel everything out, do the 360 approach. But eventually you got to figure out, this is where I'm going to be known and be the authority in the market.

This is.

And you both have figured it out, obviously. So what I love about it, and I think BC I get this word wrong, I know I say wrong. Meritocracy. I think the word you use, you, you make whatever the heck you want. There is no limit to your income. There's none. If you want to treat it like a job, you know, versus your career, you'll make minimum wage, you will treat it like your career. The sky's the limit.

No, the sky is not the limit, Rod. There is no limit.

There is no limit. Stratosphere Incoming.

So. So I'd love to talk about also again, opportunities for brokers, but investors and Rod, I don't. You might have the data. I mean, you track every single broker in the country, right? So you know where there's the heaviest broker concentration. Just a guess of mine, but I would think if you looked at this New York City market and Bob could tell you exactly how many properties trade every year here, it's roughly a thousand. Are there a thousand investment sale brokers here? Maybe not that many, but we might be pretty close. The point is, you've got. This is a fiercely competitive market. I don't know, I mean, as I spend time in these other markets, I can tell you there's certainly markets that are underserved, for sure. And I just wonder, especially for those who are new in their career, do you think it's better that they just go to the number one market in the country? Do they dive in, into the shark tank to speak, or would it be. Would they be better suited to say, this is a market that I see coming back, I think it's underserved. I think I can really grow my career quicker. You Know, so. So both that on geography and also asset class, I feel like for a lot of brokers starting off, they go straight into multifamily because that's what everybody else does. But, you know, if I was starting my career today, I mean, I. I'd probably go in and learn this data center business that's a highly specialized business and mega, mega trades that are happening. But what do you all think about. And again, this could either be, you know, starting off as a broker, starting off as an investor. You know, where do you pick as far as the geography and what do you choose to specialize in?

Yeah, if I may, the big four, obviously. New York, California, Texas and Florida. This is what it. New York, California, Texas and Florida are the big four states. The number of brokers in the United States alone, we have clients in Australia and the like, but just in the United States. With that said, with the number of brokers we coach, and we're fortunate that a good fraction of those are hitting seven figures and beyond, James, the fact is they're doing that in Lubbock, Texas, in Iowa, and yes, in New York. So where do you want to start out? Is more of a personal choice than I want to go here. I got to make it here. Although we did have a young man from Louisville, one of our clients go over to New York and now working for bk.

Right.

So that's Nick. So I don't. I personally don't tell our clients, you have to go this market or that market. And that's true. Investors. There are deals everywhere. I don't, I don't. I don't. I don't own outright, but I have, you know, a percentage of ownership in properties all over the country and certainly some in some in different markets. Apple from others.

Yeah, Rod. I think it's. It's also a different value proposition for brokers versus investors. I think from an investor's perspective and what we've seen, James, how many of our clients that for decades would only buy New York multifamily will not buy a multifamily now in New York, regardless of price? And I think the lesson there is, as an investor, you have to be diversified. You have to be diversified probably by product type and by geography, because the correlation between public policy and the way real estate markets operate has never been more closely aligned. And we're seeing that New York very acutely. But whereas I think in the brokerage business, being undiversified and doing one thing and being really great at it is important, I think I tell young People all the time. Do something that you really love. Pick a sector that you love, that something excites you. Look at, look at my friend Kim Mogul. She has one of the most successful retail leasing businesses in the country. Why does she do that? Because she likes to go shopping, right? She's the first one to admit it. But whatever. For whatever reason, pick something you love. Try to fill a donut hole. If you could fill a void in the market, that's even better. And to get back to number of sales, you know that the thousand is a good year in Manhattan. South 96th Street, 27,649 buildings, 2.6% average turnover ratio over 41 years. That's 719 buildings. In the average year in Manhattan, out of boroughs, it's 176,000 properties, 2.2% turnover rate. So in the average year for the four boroughs, it's 3,872 sales a year in the average year. That's a lot of stuff going on. It's also one of the reasons why, you know, being in New York, it's easy to have that abundance mentality. There is plenty to go around for everybody. But the more from a brokerage perspective, the more focused and narrowly focused you can be to become a true market expertise. To know every single detail about what you're doing is really important. Big differentiator. You're that surgeon that only does, you know, shoulder ACLs. But for an investor, I think diversification is critical because of the, the impact that public policy can have on how your investments are performing.

I was with our friend Michael Rutter yesterday, and he started his whole business just focused on office condominiums, you know, and he knows everything about.

The perfect example we get. We have a client call us up, say, hey, we have an office condo to sell. Oh, that's great. Here's Michael Rudder's phone number. Call him. He's the guy. And everyone knows him as the guy to do that business. And that's a, That's a wonderful thing to be in a position like that. Well, good.

So as. As we wrap, and Rod, to quote you once again, knowing isn't doing. What would you say, when are the two or three things that someone listening to this, this, this show have to put into practice? What, what are the big takeaways here? And, and how do you, how do you go about making sure that, that knowing is a doing and to put these ideas into action?

Yeah. Which, James, you said it earlier, we don't.

We don't.

We can't help people get motivated. So that sets out the window, right? You've got to be motivated to be successful. You know, don't know the thing what you do. We all about accountability and keeping score and knowing your numbers and running your business like a business. You know, know every number because you're a CEO of a company. Know every number. You're an investor. Know your numbers. Know your numbers. What does it take to get an opportunity to market? What does it take to get an opportunity to close? Know your numbers. I mean, we're all in the financial world to know your numbers. But before, before I leave, I do want to say one thing though, and that is to the listeners out there, you know, we have coached over 4,000 brokers in 17 years. We've coached brokers now all over the world. And we, in the, in the history of our company, we have 20 people we call Massimo Master Brokers. 20 out of all the people, all the brokers on the planet. And the fact is that James, you and Bob Yu are two of those 20 brokers that we consider the best brokers on the planet. So if you're an investor, you're not gonna go wrong either way.

Wow, Rod. Amazing. And I just, I can't wait to hang out with you gentlemen in, in Vegas. I know there's going to be so much more to discuss and a lot more to learn. So, Bob, any closing thoughts for you, for, for our audience? What, what's kind of the one, you know, your knackle nuggets. What, what's the nugget from here?

The nugget for today, James, is that you, you know, you hit the nail on the head. Knowing isn't doing. And that all gets down to the one great blessing that God has given everybody, and that is free will. So you can decide right now, this very second that you want to fundamentally change something about your life. And it can be anything. It could be a better husband, a better wife, a better son, a better daughter, a better friend. You could start going to the gym, stop smoking, stop drinking, eat better whatever it is, fundamentally. Read more Take that class you've been thinking about. You can decide right this second if you want to, to change anything about your life. And you can decide right now you want to be a better broker, a better investor, a better whatever it is, you have the power to do that. That's incredible that, that we all have within us the power to do it. You just need to make that decision and then stick to it. So you all are very, very powerful. But you know if you make that decision, you can fundamentally change your life this second.

Wow. Well what an incredible way to end. I knew that I was so looking forward to this conversation. This completely over delivered. And for those of you listening, if you didn't take anything from this, I don't know what to tell you. Right. I mean it's again so many actionable ideas here and again just the importance to put them into practice. So as always my suggestion to you all is share this episode with a friend. I know. Don't just keep this to yourself. The best thing you can do is when you see great advice content, share it with people. That's how we get the word out there. So we appreciate it. I appreciate your taking the time to make this investment in yourself. I hope you all will join us virtually for our CRE Brokers Summit. It's going to be an incredible thing. And until next week, this is your host, James Nelson. Thank you again for joining.

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