Dreamscape with Eric Birnbaum

Foreign.

This is Real Estate Investing Live from New York with James Nelson, the.

Principal and head of Avis and Young's Tri State Investment Sales Group. In this program, you'll learn about the world of commercial real estate and find out why it's one of the largest investment opportunities in New York and around the world.

Now here is your host, James Nelson. Welcome to episode number 95 of Real Estate Investing Live from New York. This is your host, James Nelson. I am principal and head of Tri State Investment Sales for Avis and Young. Thank you as always for tuning in and giving this a listen and sharing with your friends. And it means so much to me the comments that keep coming in. It gives me ideas for future shows and we just want to be as helpful as possible here. This show is all about giving you the insider's edge to real estate investing. That is the topic of the book that I am writing at this very moment is I want to teach you all how to become the most successful investors possible. And a great way to do that is listen to incredible stories like today's show. I have Eric Birnbaum who is founder and CEO of Dreamscapes Company and I've known Eric for at least 10, probably 15 years back in the days when he was at Vornado and from there he led his own development firm, ELB holdings, which deployed 750 million in capital. And then he went on to found Imperial Companies with Michael Facitelli, a big name in the real estate business. For those of you who aren't New Yorkers and they've been on a role and now in Eric's latest venture, he's got a lot of exciting deals that he's going to be talking about today, including a massive project that they're doing in Vegas. So I think you're going to get a huge amount of the show. For those of you maybe who are just start out or those who are looking to take your business to the next level, Eric's got a great story to share. So with that, we're going to have a brief word from our sponsors and we'll be right back with that interview with Eric Birnbaum.

Thank you. A different approach to putting our clients first. Avis and Young's Tri State Investment Sales Group sells multifamily office retail development and specialty sales throughout the New York metro area. As experienced thought leaders in our industry, our 35 member group is available to help you make informed investment decisions by advising you on your current holdings or identifying new opportunities in the marketplace. Our one unified team is built on an industry unique platform which promotes unparalleled collaboration and teamwork. We share core values of hard work, integrity and expertise. We we put our clients first providing tailor made strategies to achieve superior results. Please Visit us at aytristateinvestmentsales.com and follow us on Twitter LinkedIn and Instagram amesnelsonnyc to learn more.

You are listening to Real Estate Investing.

LIVE from New York. To find out more about James Nelson or avison young, visit avisonyoung.com now back to our show.

Time for our Investor Spotlight and with us today, my friend Eric Birnbaum. Eric is a New York City based real estate developer who began his career in 2003 at Vornado Realty Trust where he worked in both acquisitions and capital markets. While Vornado Eric participated in over $1 billion of transactions between 2008 and 2014, Eric led his own development firm firm ELB holdings, which deployed approximately 750 million. Eric is a native of New York and most lately he's going to be talking about his new venture, Dreamscapes and talking about some of his other projects including the critically acclaimed Henry hall, which was awarded the best new Multifamily development by Multifamily Executive, as well as the Pod Hotel in New York's Times Square, a popular and unique 710 room hotel as well as a mixed use ground up development, the Good Time Hotel, a new mixed use hospitality concept in Miami's South Beach. So Eric, welcome, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thanks for having me.

So Eric, I know you are a New York City based real estate developer. Is that where you grew up?

Yes, born and bred New Yorker. Grew up on the Upper west side and have lived here all my life. Went to school down in Philadelphia, but then came back after I graduated in 96 and have been living here ever since, raising our family here as well. And I'm one of the true New Yorkers from the beginning to now.

There's so few true New Yorkers it kind of ends up there, but it's.

Rarely so few New Yorkers who haven't ended up in jail or something like that.

So was real estate in the family or was even something that you were thinking about growing up?

My father, initially in one of his jobs coming out of school, worked for the infamous Sheldon Solo and actually one of his claims to fame was that he helped put together the assemblage on what ultimately became 9 West 57th street and helped buy out some of the brownstones that ultimately became part of the big development, as many may know of, Sheldon Solow was a unique character. He, he took the day off to get engaged to my mother. And apparently Sheldon Solow did not appreciate that and was subsequently fired from Solo and that was the end of his illustrious real estate career. He then went on to do other things. But suffice to say, real estate wasn't something that I really like, grew up around. However, I graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in 96 and at that time you kind of did like one of three or four things. You went into consulting, you went into investment banking, you went to law school or you became a doctor. So it was really like those four things. There was no Google or any of that. Or maybe there was, but nobody was doing it. I ended up going into investment banking and did sort of that typical path. And I worked at a small investment bank or boutique for a couple years and then actually ultimately went to the now, I guess, sort of defunct Bear Stearns and worked at Bear for a bunch of years. And I actually met my wife at Bear Stearns. But what really like came to be at Bear Stearns was that I had sort of like this hole in my stomach that I just never felt that Wall street was. You were just kind of like selling air and you were selling other people's ideas. And I never felt like when I was sitting around at the table like that I actually had anything, I didn't really have a skill or anything like unique to offer. And I always just kind of like felt very unfulfilled, I guess, if you will. So around that time I was contemplating actually going back to business school and I started actually dating my future wife whose family was actually in real estate. And as I got to know my future wife, Dana, more and more and actually developed a relationship with her father, I really got sort of my entree or sort of introduction to development. So my father in law, who unfortunately passed away a couple years ago, was a guy by the name of Alan Landis. He was responsible for a lot of the big developments along Route 1 in New Jersey. Carnegie center was sort of like his claim to fame, amongst others. And I distinctly remember, I don't know what year this was, but probably like 2002, maybe 2003, something around there. Actually going to Carnegie center with my father in law and everybody and having him sort of walk me around what was initially a big sod farm that had nothing on it. And he created this world that had ponds and parks and office buildings and a hotel. This whole big master plan, mixed use development and, and the passion that he had for it was like kind of inspiring. And what he subsequently like, sort of explained to me was sort of the process of development where you had tidbits of different industries, whether it was economics or finance, capital markets, sales, design, architecture. And you explained to me how a development process like actually worked. And what was just so interesting to me was that it really touched on so many different disciplines. And the disciplines it touched on were things that I actually had an interest in, but didn't really even know that I was interested in them. Whether it was design, finance, sales, marketing, all those things that you need in order to pull off the development. And that entree really kind of began to say to myself, geez, somewhat cliche if you will, but maybe this is something that I should like look into. And I really started thinking about how do you make the move from, from investment banking over to real estate? And I started thinking about how do you do that? And long story short, as the story goes, our next door neighbor up in Connecticut, where my wife's family has a home, our next door neighbor was a guy by the name of Michael Facitelli. And Michael Facitelli at the time was president of Vernado. And I would go up to Connecticut pretty much every weekend in the summers and kind of like have nothing to do. And Mike and I used to hang out. He would deny this, but it's fact. I would go and kick his ass in tennis and basically any sport that he could muster up other than golf, which I wasn't too fond of. But long story short, Mike and I ended up developing a really special friendship and sort of like bond and became friends really. And I remember we were actually playing tennis one day and I was kind of lamenting, I guess, about how much I hated Wall street and yada yada yada, and thinking about actually going back to business school as sort of then a parlay into potentially real estate. And he said to me, well, why don't you just like ask? Maybe there's something for you to do at Vernado, maybe I can help you out. And that then led into interviewing with the acquisitions team at Vornado. And one thing led to another and lo and behold, Mike gave me my break and allowed me to sort of like segue into real estate and kind of the rest is history.

Wow, those names you mentioned, Alan Landis, Mike Facitelli, I mean, just legends. And to have them as mentors in the beginning of your career and throughout your career, I'm sure they certainly set you on the right path. I didn't know Alan Landis personally, but know of him, and he not only was an incredibly successful developer, but also did so much to give back to the community. Incredibly involved and so wonderful that you were able to spend time with him. And ask anyone out there, I mean, Mike Facadelli, his name's synonymous with genius as far as how to structure deals and figure things out. For better or worse.

I set the bar extremely high, or the bar was set extremely high.

A big theme of this show is really about the people and who you surround yourself with. That's a big part of being successful in this business. So, again, to have that start in the business with Vornado, and we work with them today, and they're very, very smart institutional investors. And I'm sure that introduction of the business in the early years gave you an incredible foundation. So maybe talk about those early years. So coming from Wall Street, I assume you had some skills being able to underwrite. I mean, what did Vornado have you do early on in your career?

I'm sort of infamous, I think, in the lures of Vornado, analyst, associate vp, whatever you want to call it. I got to Vornado, and I distinctly. It's just one of those things that you just kind of, like, never forget. I was a history major, just to take a step back in college, and then started investment banking and sort of like, learn to Excel, if you will, like, on the fly. But I was never one of those guys that used Excel without, like, the mouse and knew how to, like, write my own macros and like, all that sort of stuff. That was not my thing. And when I got to Vernado and joined the acquisitions group, I don't know if they thought that I was some Excel wizard or not, but I certainly wasn't. And the first day that I got there, they were bidding on the MetLife building. I was working directly for two women, one by the name of Michelle Feldman and the other by the name of Wendy Silverstein. And they said, we're bidding on the MetLife building. We need an underwriting for this by tomorrow or something. Here you go. Here's your Argus account and Excel. And, like, have it on our desk like, tomorrow and Vernado. At the time, I think we had, like, three or four of us, and we were all kind of like the same genre, if you will. And at the time, there wasn't a whole lot of teaching. You were just kind of, like, thrown into it. I mean, I didn't even know what Argus was, and Suffice to say, like, that first evening, I legitimately pulled an all nighter and I think I screwed up everything. Like, there was nothing right about what I produced.

I'm laughing because for those of you who are not in New York, I mean, the MetLife building, safe to say there's probably over 100 leases in that building.

It was the craziest thing.

If you had been in the business a decade doing underwriting, I mean, you could have a team of a dozen analysts, and if you told them they needed to crank out an Argus run, it would probably take them a week. So the fact that you show up and they say, we need something tomorrow, desk. I mean, talk about a crash course in the business. Mission impossible. So at the end of the day, I'm curious. Were you able to deliver anything that had some semblance of a.

It looked good to me. I'm not sure that anybody paid much mind to it, but you're exactly right. I was thrown into the deep end. And not only thrown into the deep end, but it was like 50ft deep. And the way that I looked at it from my own perspective and taking a step back, I was actually late in. I took one step back to ultimately like take two steps forward, hopefully. But I was like 29, 30 years old at this point and really kind of like in an associate VP doing this type of stuff. And I looked at it as kind of like my mba. And I dedicated myself to learning and ultimately asking lots of questions and really using that time as a paid education, if you will. And to be brutally honest, it was actually a really difficult time, just because the people at Vernado are very intense, like very smart, not very empathetic, and it's sort of like a sink or swim sort of environment. So going through the process was pretty painful, candidly. But I think in retrospect, certainly sitting here now on the other side of it, I couldn't have asked or gotten better education and been in the room, like you said, with some of the brightest, like, real estate minds in the industry, whether it was Steve Roth himself or Michael Facitelli, Michelle Feldman, Wendy Silverstein, all of these people really kind of wrote the Modern Real Estate Institutional Investing Handbook. And I kind of had a front row seat for it. And I credited all of them for truly, like, helping me out.

It's interesting because we have a lot of listeners to the show who are in college or maybe they are in another business, maybe they're on Wall street right now, for all we know. And they're looking to make a switch. And the question has come up on the show before, is it better to work, start off in a large shop where you have that infrastructure. But maybe the trade off is maybe you kind of got to stay in a specific lane where maybe you, you don't get involved in the process, soup the nuts versus working at a smaller, more entrepreneurial firm. So I don't know if you want to talk about this question kind of in context of what you did next with Imperial. That was certainly a more entrepreneurial shop. And so the fact that you've had experience both working for one of the largest REITs out there, one of the biggest office owners in New York, and retail owners, and then went to go something more entrepreneurial, if you had to do it all over again, starting a big shop, small shop, I mean, what advice would you give to our listeners on that?

I don't think any way is the right or the wrong way for me. I think you're accurate in that in some of these big organizations like a Vornado, you very much are a part of a larger factory line, if you will, and you have a very specific role that you do. And as a result of that you go very deep. If there was sort of like a t versa, the vertical versus like the horizontal, like you go much deeper down the hole on one specific skill, but you don't get the breadth across different aspects on a real estate dealer project. That being said, what I did at Vernado, which I think if you can, one should take advantage of it, I started and spent half my time in the acquisitions and capital markets group and then spent the latter half of the my time in the development group. So I really was able to get a more well rounded kind of like education, if you will, by being in both disciplines. Once I left Vernado and decided to do something more entrepreneurial, it's a different business because you're doing everything beginning from A to Z. And I think that if you're a young person coming into the field, I think the structure of a big shop can be great, but it can be limiting. And if you have like the ability to teach yourself and push yourself, being at a smaller, more entrepreneurial shop, like you'll certainly get a more 360 degree experience, but it really just depends on like one's mentality.

Great answer. There's definitely different considerations. The key is being a part of something where you have access to very smart people and you're really able to challenge yourself. So talk to us about going off on your own With Imperial, how did you start that? Did you have a backer at the time? How did you know at that point that you did want to go off.

On your own, chronologically speaking? So I left Vernado in May of 2008, three, four months before the great financial crisis. So at that time the world was pretty frothy and I was lucky that I actually had found a deal and raised capital around that deal. And before starting Imperial, I founded a company called just my initials, ELB Holdings. And from 2008 to 2014, that's what I was doing. And ELB holdings was focused primarily on value add, opportunistic type of deals really, in two main verticals, one being hospitality and the other being residential. So I got once again really lucky that I found a deal. And Vornado may not have been happy about it, but I found a deal while I was still at Vornado and was able to transition out of Vornado with a deal in hand and like capital like ready to go. So my transition was quite seamless, thankfully.

Was that a multi deal or a hotel deal? And Vornado obviously does everything, but the primary focus is really off. So how are you able to demonstrate to investors that you could actually do this on your own when you really didn't have a track record of your own to speak?

It's a very good question. I mean, I think I was lucky enough. It was a development deal, which subsequently became the Pod Hotel on 42nd and 9th. And I was able to convince investors that I had a good business plan, like I understood development, and that the underwriting that we had put together was fairly sound. Now, the investors that came into the deal on that initial deal were not institutional quality investors. It was a bunch of high net worth friends and family investors. So as far as the scrutiny is concerned was probably to a different level than going to CalPERS or CalSTRS and asking them for the capital. So it was really a transition into the institutional world, if you will. And that deal, or me sort of like going off on my own, allowed me to hire a couple people. Then subsequent to that, the world collapsed. We had no legacy assets to speak of, thankfully, because we were so new and we were able to play net offense while everybody was kind of triaging and playing defense. And what subsequently happened was we did from 2008 to 2000, call it 14, we did 13 deals. And once again in the multifamily residential space and in the hospitality space, because timing, candidly like is 90% of it, we look perhaps a Lot smarter than we were and posted some really impressive results. And that then led to people getting more confidence in us and creating a little bit of a track record. And Imperial was born, basically when Mike Facitelli, in 2013, Mike decided that he was going to exit stage right from Vernado. He took a one year garden leave. And then Mike and I then had some conversations around teaming up with one another. I had a little bit of an infrastructure in place from the 13 deals that we had done. I had a couple ex Pernito guys with me that we all sort of like spoke the same language. And Mike said, why don't I come in? We'll rebrand ELB holdings, if you will, into Imperial, I guess, for lack of a better way of rebranding and let's be partners. And at the time, and as you know, Mike was effectively like the equivalent of Michael Jordan in real estate. And when Michael Jordan says, I want to be on your team, you say, okay, like let's go. So that was sort of like the end of that. And then Imperial was effectively formed from that point. And to be clear, Mike and I are still partners and we own a lot of assets together currently. But as far as like doing new deals and things like that, Imperial stopped doing new deals as sort of like an entity, if you will, at the end of 2019. And then at the end of 2019, Dreamscape was formed, which is really, I guess is just sort of a continuation of what ELB holdings was, which was still focused on hospitality, still focused on residential, and still doing what we do. And Mike is sort of evolved and has many different interests and involved in basketball teams and other sort of interesting real estate investments. And Mike and I are still obviously like quite close, but as far as like the day to day looking for new deals and what not as a tandem, we don't actively look together at this stage.

How did you capitalize deals at Imperial and how do you capitalize them now? Is it still deal specific where you've got this staple of investors, or have you kind of graduated to more institutional investors? Have you ever thought about a fund?

We've spent a very long time analyzing the merits and demerits of the fund business and our sense or my sense, and I would say at Imperial, our collective sense, was that the fun business? It's just a different business. And at the end of the day, like, I consider myself like an operator developer. I don't really consider myself an asset allocator. And therein lies the difference. Like I like to cook my Own food, if you will, versus like having somebody else kind of like cook it for me. And that's not to say that one business is better than the other, but the fun business is a great business if you like spending all your time running around like raising money, because it's really about asset gathering and raising as much capital as you possibly can. And one of the things that that business sort of mandates, I guess, for lack of a better word, is that if you're given money and asked to go allocate it on a discretionary basis, the expectation from that capital is that you're going to be doing deals. And if there's one thing, like I've learned in what I do, is that it's not always a good idea to be doing deals just for the sake of doing deals. And once again, like, timing is very important and having that pressure, as ironic as it sounds from your LPs, to be putting capital out despite what you may think is not the most advantageous time to be putting capital out, it sort of just like goes against my DNA, if you will. We like to do deals that we inherently believe in and think are good deals. We may not always be right, but at least our motivation for like doing those deals is always going to be like, pure. And that kind of like mantra has served me and us well.

That makes a ton of sense. It also seems to me, I mean, you do a lot of different kinds of deals. You're in residential, retail, hospitality. Your site even says entertainment and gaming experiences. I'm not sure what that piece encompasses. Maybe we can get to that. But you said that Dreamscape's mission is to generate long term financial prosperity through a diversified portfolio of differentiated, forward thinking real estate projects. So what do you mean by differentiated forward thinking real estate projects?

I'll go back to the gaming thing because it sort of leads into that answer, perhaps. We own a couple assets out in Las Vegas actually, and one in particular, the Rio, which we bought from Caesars about a year and a half ago. And that's going to be a big repositioning and sort of like reimagination, if you will. So we've gotten into, I guess, the gaming business, for better or for worse. We're quite excited about that. But one of the things as far as like differentiated and forward thinking, I mean, at the end of the day, if you build a multifamily asset, or you build a hotel, or you do a gaming mixed use asset, these are commodity products and a hotel room is a hotel room, a multifamily apartment unit is a multifamily apartment unit. A good location is a good location. And the question is, is how do you differentiate yourself and what is it that you can do to make what is otherwise a fairly commoditized asset class less commoditized? And. And where we have tried to put some extra emphasis into, like, our projects and our deals is really about thinking about and trying to control the narrative within the product and creating experiences that hopefully, like, resonate with the people. So whether it's integrating food and beverage into our projects in a thoughtful way, whether it's integrating music in a thoughtful way, whether it's design in a thoughtful way, and it's not any one of these things in particular. It's all of these things, like, cumulatively together, that create an experience that hopefully takes a commoditized asset and makes it differentiated and makes you hopefully, like, stand out sort of amongst the crowd, if you will, and make people want to be there rather than be someplace else. So that's what we try and do.

I really love how you've married the real estate with programming the space, and oftentimes we think of real estate as just the physical four walls and then leave it to the tenants to kind of create their own atmosphere. But the fact that you've collaborated and I saw with Pharrell Williams and famous restaurateurs, I mean, how does that really work in practice? Is Pharrell there as you're designing the space? Does he have an equity stake in the deal? Is he.

When you say you're collaborating, We've been very lucky. Whether it's at the Good Time Hotel that we did under the Imperial banner, or whether it's at the Rio or at Henry Hall. We have tried to treat our tenants, I guess, as partners, and Pharrell is in a different category, and Dave Grutman is in a different category, like at the Good Time Hotel, where we actually own the brand of the Good Time collectively with them. But we try and seek out individuals or parties that are unique and passionate and help tell the story that we think that we want to, like, tell. And if you're going to invite those type of people into your project and have them be a part of it, you'd be kind of doing yourself a disservice, like, if you didn't integrate them into it, knock on wood. We have done that, and hopefully successfully. And they have a certain skill. Speaking about, like, Pharrell, he has a certain skill and view of the world that is obviously, like, very unique and differentiated that helps, that is obviously quite additive, like, to the project and helps create a narrative that otherwise wouldn't be there. We couldn't be happier. I mean, we think having them at the table and being a part of it has been great. And with all these people, they've all participated, they're all partners of ours and we treat them as such because you want it to feel and be a true partnership.

Wow, I love that perspective and the way you approach the business. And it makes me think back to the first podcast that I ever did with Bruce Rat and he talked about collaborating with Jay Z Barclays Arena. It's again, kind of bringing in and collaborating outside the traditional real estate business. You're going to deliver something that hasn't been done before. So, Eric, you're being super modest here. And I've looked at some of your acquisitions. I mean, you mentioned the Rio deal. I mean, that was over a half a billion dollars, 2,500 keys. I mean, that is a major, major, major project. So where do you see the future of dreamscapes? Hey, I've done it all. I started kind of doing my own deals and had this incredible partnership. And you're doing some of the largest, most important transactions out there. I mean, what does the future hold?

Well, first off, just taking a step back, I hope we're just getting started. And one of the things, and I do credit this just going full circle back to my father in law and for the younger people who are perhaps like thinking about careers and whatnot, like, if there's any advice like, that I could give for whatever it's worth, is that when I was on Wall street, the one thing that I can assuredly say unequivocally is that I was not passionate about it. And when I left Wall Street, I remember people asking me, do you still look at the market and do you still look at where the market closed or opened or this or that? And I said, no, I was not passionate about it at all. And when I sit here today and think about what it is that I do day in and day out, I found my passion and I found what it is that I truly like, enjoy doing. It's how I identify myself. It's what I do and what I love. This is what stimulates me so that to me, when you can find a job that doesn't feel like a job, you then have, like, found like, what it is like, that you should be doing. And so like, for me, that's not to say, like, it's not a lot of hard Work, and there are times where you want to, like, pull your hair out. But I think all that hard work and dedication and finding my passion has gotten us to this point. And now people believe in us a little bit more when we say that we can do something. Like, instead of people doubting it now, they have seen that it has been done and they believe it. Things get a little bit easier as you, like, prove yourself along the way. And then as a result, it gets even more fun because some of the dream things that you always, like, wanted to do, like a Rio, actually become reality. And for me, I feel like we're just getting started and I'm beginning to have even more fun.

That's awesome. Couldn't agree more with you that it's about passion and you can't just be in this for the money. And so it's great that you're more excited about the future. So what would you say throughout your career is your key to success? What are the things that you do? And I also want to ask you, what is your competitive advantage? When you showed up to buy the Riot? I've got to imagine you had a lot of competition. So how did you win that deal? How did you find it? How did you win it? Give me some of those skills to your success are part of that.

I think the first key to success, once again, is passion. And if you are passionate about something, more often than not, you will excel at it. So I think that's number one. Number two, I think a lot of people in real estate, unfortunately, and I think this is perhaps like a differentiating factor to us. A lot of people in real estate have huge egos and think that they know everything. And I think one of the things like, that we as like sort of a collective try and do is listen and not expect, like, that we know everything and that there isn't a better way than what we may think. So I think, like, listening is something that is not always very easy to do, but if you can force yourself to do it and, and if you surround yourself with great people who you trust, who may have more experience in certain areas like, than you and listen, I think that will separate you, doesn't make you lesser of a person if it's not your idea and. But takes a bigger person to take somebody else's idea that's not yours and say that's the better way to go. So I think listening is a really underrated trait that most people in, like, real estate don't have. So I think we try and like, push that for us, for myself and for our people. And as far as like the real is concerned, it was a competitive process. There was other bidders out there and we were able to I think beget the trust of Caesars and show that we could perform. And really at the end of the day, we paid more than the next guy. So paying a dollar more typically ends up landing you the transaction. So that shouldn't ever go understated. And the funny thing is the irony in all of it is that when 100% of the time when you buy a deal and you know this, James, probably as well as anybody, when you buy a deal, everybody sends you an email or calls you and says congratulations. And the reality is you should be congratulated when you sell the deal or refinance it and actually make investors money and or yourself money. That's when the congratulations should come. The congratulations is really that you were just the idiot that paid a dollar more than the next guy for whatever that's worth.

Wow, Eric, you got an amazing story and it was just fun to catch up with you again because I know it's been a little bit of and I'm trying to remember when we met it was probably it could be close to 20 years ago. I remember those ELB days. So it's just amazing to see how far you've come and the success and your words passion. So can't thank you enough for joining us today. I know our listeners are going to get a ton out of this conversation.

Thank you so much for having me and great to see you.

Thank you and everyone as well for listening. This is James Nelson, your host of Real Estate Investing Live from New York. If you haven't already, please make sure and check out james nelson.com. that's where you can find out this episode as well as useful tools video series. And while you're at it, go ahead and connect with me at James Nelson until next week. Thank you again.

Thank you for tuning in this week to Real Estate Investing Live from New York.

Please join your host James Nelson for another program next Tuesday at 7pm in New York, 4pm Pacific Time on the.

Voice America Business Channel. All shows are rebroadcast on Wednesday mornings at 7am Eastern Time and 4am Pacific.

Time as well as always on demand. We'll talk again next week.

Sam.