Leveraging AI for CRE w/ Rod Santomassimo

Welcome. This is the insider's edge to real estate investing with James Nelson, the principal and head of Avis and Young's Tri State Investment Sales Group. In this program you'll learn game changing strategies to outperform the market. James will teach you how to source, execute and capitalize on the best real estate opportunities in New York and around the world. Now here's your host.

Welcome to show number 167. This is your host, James Nelson. The insider's edge to real estate investing. And before I introduce today's guest, I want to tell you about a letter that I received from one of you and yes, an old fashioned letter that came in the mail and thank you and I love when you all connect with me, Message me on LinkedIn, Instagram, email, call me. But thank you. Claude from Detroit who has taken the time to reach out and written a very nice letter saying that he's a big fan of the show and the book and he's asking me how does he get into real estate investing. He's identified some great opportunities in the Detroit area where there's some grant money available. And what I love about what Claude is saying is he finds this not only as an opportunity to, to invest but also make a positive impact. And Claude, if you haven't listened to that episode with Matt Blesso, I would definitely go back and do that where he talks about impact investing. And Claude, to answer your question and for everyone else's benefits, you know, getting in and making your first investment, a great way to do that is finding a trusted partner, someone who has made similar investments in what you're looking to do. I think you should, after you've identified this opportunity and live properties to invest in, I think you should reach out to these potential partners and see that you could team up for your first few investments before time you, you'll have your own track record that you can leverage for the future. So Claude, thank you so much for reaching out on that. Hope this is helpful. And for today's show we have with us Rod Santomosimo. He's a friend, he's a mentor, longtime coach of mine. We've had him on the show before but he is big back and he is at it again. He has his latest book out Dominators of Commercial Real Estate Brokerage. And Rod was so kind to include me once again in the book. He last featured my team in Teams Built to Dominate. I always get so much out of Rod's wisdom. He has more than 30 years of experience in the commercial real estate industry. And in the interview, Rod discusses the pandemic as an exception accelerator that led to hybrid working, telecommuting, teleconferences, among other things. But now he has told me he is all in on AI leveraging how to stay on top of trends and make processes more efficient. He says what is happening right now in AI and the AI world is the greatest accelerant that we have ever seen in our history in regards to what is possible and how quickly it can happen. Let me read that again. What's happening right now in AI and the AI world is the greatest accelerant that we have ever seen in our history in regards to what is possible and how quickly it can happen. So look, if you are not thinking about AI and how it can impact and really leverage your business, no time like the present to jump on this. So I think this conversation, you're going to get a lot out of this. But he also talks about some of the traditional things that have made so many of the people you've heard on this podcast successful. The value of relationships. Rod says that's still what matters. And when talking about a broker, he says, one question I always ask a broker is tell me a time when you advise your client not to sell. I love that question. And really the professionals that you're working with, they should be thinking about the long term, not just making a quick but so to speak. So to find more opportunities, Rod mentions the power of creating a presence pyramid. So he talks about personal, physical and digital layers. Presence is paramount in everything you do, Rod says. So during this episode, Rod encourages you to find a mentor and ask three questions when connecting what's new, what's next and what do you need? Intellectual curiosity will be the way to grow and be the doer, he adds. I could not agree more. So we're gonna have a brief word from our sponsor and we'll get right into that interview with Ro Santo Massimo.

A Different Approach to Putting Our Clients First Avis and Young's Tri State Investment Sales Group sells multifamily office, retail development and specialty sales throughout the New York metro area. As experienced thought leaders in their industry, our 35 member group is available to help you make informed investment decisions by advising you on your current holdings or identifying new opportunities in the marketplace. Our one unified team is built on an industry unique platform which promotes unparalleled collaboration and teamwork. We share core values of hard work, integrity and expertise. We put our clients first, providing tailor made strategies to achieve superior results. Please visit us@aytristateinvestmentsales.com and follow us on Twitter LinkedIn and Instagram amesnelsonnyc to learn more.

Welcome everyone. We have an incredible treat for you all today. Back with us on the show is Rod Santomosimo who is a friend, a mentor of mine and yes, a coach going on. Rod, we'll have to try to remember when this all started, but easily. It's been 10, 15 years, maybe even 20 years. So for those of you who've been living in a cave, you might not have heard of Rod's best selling book, Brokers who Dominate. And here we are. Hard to believe ten years later, Rod has done it again. Now he is out with the the reunion book 10 year anniversary for Dominators of Commercial Real Estate Brokerage. I love the subtitle here. How top producers adapt and continue to be authorities in an otherwise commoditized industry. So, Rod, welcome so much to the show. Thank you as always for sharing your knowledge. It's a real pleasure and I always get a tremendous amount of benefit from this as well. So thank you so much.

Well, James, thank you very much for having me back. I remember the first time we did this, it was in New York in the studio this time now we have advanced technology, we could do it remotely. So I'm excited to be here, excited to talk to you about everything regarding commercial real estate and let's move forward.

That's awesome. And I'm glad you mentioned the wonders of technology because I know you're always such an early adapter. And one of my favorite quotes is Wayne Gretzky's skating where the puck is going. And what you have been doing in the AI space is really exciting. So we're gonna get to that for sure. But I wanna, I wanna kick it off with the book and I think also for context, I know most of you listening out there, yes, we do get some real estate brokers who wanna be investors. But the reason why you're listening to this show is you wanna gain the insider's edge to real estate investing. You wanna learn how to do this. So you might say, James, why are we on this show talking about a book about how to dominate in commercial real estate brokerage? But I would suggest to you, as I do in that understanding and how to cultivate relationships with brokers are going to make you successful. So Rod, why don't you give us a little bit of sense because again, these brokers who you profiled and you were kind enough to include me in this book have all excelled in great times as well, as challenging times. So, you know, now you've had 10 years since the original book. You followed their paths. What is kind of the takeaways? I mean, if you had to give us the Reader's Digest, so to speak, on that, on this book, what are kind of the lessons learned? And then let's use that as a starting off point.

Yeah. So this book, the Dominator book, is really a combination of the first book I wrote a little over 10 years ago called Brokers who Dominate. And then I followed up with a book called Teams Built to Dominate, which, James, you have a dominant team and you were, you were included in that book, rightfully so. And so I thought we'd look back, especially when the pandemic hit. I said, I wonder what people are doing now to adapt to this changing market. So I went back and I researched all the folks we talked to in those two books, and I picked the best stories. Those who adapted, I felt the strongest. And here's what we found. First of all, you talked about Wayne Gretzky, right. Skate to where the puck is going. Dominators do that. They have not seen sat still at once. They're always looking to what's next, what's next? Where is the market going? I know, for example, in that book, Matt McGregor, who's industrial broker out in Seattle area, he talks about always understanding, 12 months from now, where will the market be? Where are my clients needs be and why do you start doing today? To adapt to that. And I find to be true for everyone in the book. They're always thinking, not what's tomorrow bringing, but what's next year bringing. And they're acting as if they're going to help their clients out a year from now. So that's definitely one takeaway, a second takeaway. And James, you talked about it in the book and many folks do, and they're always learning. Everyone in the book is constantly learning. There's this intellectual curiosity, not arrogance. If there's arrogance, they wouldn't learn. I know what I'm good is an arrogant statement, but they're truly curious. I mean, these, these top producers, these top brokers, and by the way, also investors, because many of the brokers have become investors now. They're always looking and how can I get better? So I think if I look at the book itself and said, what are the two key things? No doubt, the future, projection, and always, always looking to get better.

Rod, that is a great way to set the stage. And I'm sure you can already tell that this book and the lessons from it do not just apply to brokerage, but really apply be successful in any business. If you're not thinking about, again, what does the future hold, you're going to find yourself having others pass you by. So, Rod, it might, you know, seem like an easy question, but how do you really look out into the future and get a sense of where things are going?

Well, I think from a, from a real estate side or general business side. James, I want to answer your question as best I can. Which, which perspective?

Well, we do have a real estate audience, so let's, let's talk about where, where things are headed. I mean, I, I get to ask the question 20 times a day. James, how's the market? And then everybody likes to speculate where things are going to be a year, two years from now. So, you know, how do you advise our listeners to break out their crystal balls and to figure out where things are going?

Well, the best of the best will understand where the market's been and based on certain variables in the marketplace. And every market is different. New York is different than Tampa. It's different than Lubbock, Texas. It just is. So every market's going to be different, the real estate side, but you know, historically, where the trends will go and you consider, you know, debt, interest rates, supply, demand absorption, whatever it might be that you all look at for your variables, you can project out 6 months to 12 months easily on where the market may go. We believe in sensitivity analysis. We believe in looking at three scenarios. Oh, I'm sorry, Brad. I greatly apologize for that. I turned it off. Three scenarios in that respect. So, James, I always look at. I'm a numbers guy. It's funny. He believes I'm always first and foremost a numbers guy. And I'm always doing analysis on the numbers and the trends and from that, figuring out where the market's going to be from a financial perspective, looking at scenarios and sensitivity analysis, where it should be going.

Love that. And I know we're going to get to artificial intelligence, but it actually seems like an appropriate time to bring it into the fold because how would you recommend that our listeners, whether investors brokers leverage AI to try to predict what are future trends and things they can stay in front of.

Yeah. In perspective. The pandemic reason we wrote this recently, wrote the book, right. To see what's going on. The pandemic was considered the great accelerator because everything changed, right? Hybrid working, telecommuting, teleconferences, everything. Exceedingly accelerate it to where we are today by probably four or Five fold where it should have been. We wouldn't be here generally, you and I, we'd be back in the studio probably. The pandemic never hit. We probably would be right and then things would be different. The pandemic was an accelerator, but nothing like what happened in November of last year with the introduction of OpenAI. And now of course Bing and Google and Claude and everything else is happening right now in the AI world. This is the greatest accelerant that we have ever seen in our history in regards to what is possible and how quickly it can happen. While some of you may be worried about the dangers and yes, AI is a dangerous tool. In fact, James, today someone sent me a file of my voice saying something that I have never said before, but it was my voice. They were trying to show me a point of what is the potential dangers. There are dangers, but AI is like any tool, any tool you ever use in the past. You have to learn what it is because it is impacting everyone today. And I will share with you that technology we looked at three months ago today is a tenth of the investment and much, much better than it was three months ago. I can't imagine what's going to be a year from now. So you have to accept it, start to dive into, even read one newsletter. There's thousands of AI newsletters. Pick up one, you read the Wall Street Journal, you read the, one of your real estate journals every morning, newsletters, read an AI journal and see what's going on.

Very helpful. And I think for most people, when they think of leveraging AI, they go straight to Chat GPT. And I know many of us have used it, certainly whether it's filling in some of the more boilerplate parts of offering memos, whether it's to write a neighborhood description or any research that need done for background. But clearly the Chat GPT platform is already evolving, is becoming more sophisticated. But you also mentioned some pretty big names out there, you know, Google, Bing, so what, what is, you know, in the Microsofts of the world? What, what are they thinking and more importantly doing right now to really own this space?

Well, it's, it's a competition right now. There's no doubt, it's a race. And they're all hiring as many people as they can. And look what's happening in San Francisco, right? The market, we always said, my God, what happened to San Francisco? And now there's a little rejuvenation in San Francisco because all these companies, AI based companies are hiring talent to win the arms race. And the Arms race is AI. Look at copilot. Microsoft is doing a copilot is absolutely incredible you can do on our old Microsoft Word and PowerPoint and Excel. Now it's all automated for you. It's incredible. Google has already told you how you can start editing your Word docs in Google. It does it automatically right now. These are minor, minor, minor enhancements. Excuse me. What's really going on the AI side though is it's going to change everything. The way we work, the way we communicate, the way we process. If we don't adapt, we're going to be lost. And that's the point. You have to adapt and use it as a tool. If not, you're going to be left behind. You're going to.

You know, I'm thinking about Gary Vee right now because he, he is always a big proponent of, you know, just try it out, right? I mean I, I think so many of us say well I'm going to let everybody else be the early adapters, you know, because half this stuff isn't going to, you know, stick around. And sure we, we can point to examples and look, you might tell me the clubhouse is still viable and people are still on that platform. But I remember early on we all jumped on the bandwagon. We said hey, this is the, the greatest thing we've ever seen. We're all hanging out in these clubhouse rooms and we're all, you know, it was, I don't want to call it a novelty but you know, you don't hear many people talking about clubhouse now. And so it's true. You don't know what is the platform, the technology, is it going to be a winner, you know, takes all. And that was, you know, certainly what we've seen Google do in the search space. But I think to go out there and to familiarize yourself with, with the various technologies make, make a ton of sense, right? So to at least get to, to see what is out there, to stay informed. So what would you say to the investors, brokers out there who want to, you know, do more than just kind of log on to chat GBT and to try it out. What, what are other things that they can do right now to improve their business?

Number one, use the tools. There are so many tools out there. There are tools for writing, there are tools for images, whether it be a mid journey or a Leonardo. There are tools for designing, there are tools for lease abstracts, there are tools for everything. You can go to, here's a website everyone should go to. There's an AI for that dot com, there's an AI for that dot com. Go to that website first and foremost and then just type in what you want and just use your imagination and it will prove to you there's an AI for that. There's someone that's built something for what you're doing right now that can be automated instead. And that's the key, automation. James, we just had a AI expert or, you know, who knows there are experts after six months of this. But AI expert come into our company, look at everything we're doing and I just got the proposal last night and how the AI can automate a lot of our processes right now our team can start doing things that are higher quality elements, higher impact elements. So yeah, AI can change almost everything that you're doing, no matter what you're doing. It can.

You know, Rod, I'm smiling because, you know, saying that here's someone who knows me. They've only been into this space for a couple months now. They're the authority, the expert. I mean, I think a lot about being top of mind is, yeah, I mean you've got to do the work, but you can take ownership of the space and say, hey, I'm going to focus in on this. And you know, my, my friend Chris Okada who's been on the show, you know, when crypto was a big thing here in, you know, New York, I mean he suddenly put out the crypto report. This is where these companies are in New York. And he got a ton of press and I'm sure a lot of business. And you know, even though that might have cooled off a bit, I mean, sometimes kind of identifying these opportunities and, and you know, putting out great content about it is a way not only to educate but also can lead to opportunities. So maybe, you know, just before the call you said that you were have a very busy travel schedule because you're going to go out and be speaking at these AI conferences. So maybe talk about how you pivoted to get into this space, you know, what this all involves and how you see, see this impacting your underlying business.

Well, let me go back to two things you mentioned so far. You mentioned Clubhouse and Clubhouse was an audio based platform during the pandemic where people can actually connect because they couldn't meet in person. So Clubhouse, when it came out caught fire because there was no other choice to connect. Right. So it served a great purpose during the pandemic. But people soon realized I'd rather meet face to face and get off the audio. Right. Crypto I will honestly tell you, I've never once spent a dime or a minute on crypto in my time. So I know nothing about it. But I understand it's, it's, it's, it's not clubhouse, but it's also maybe not the next great thing, right? We understand that today it might be end up being. I don't know, I though. So here's what happened. You know, I'm a coach. You know that I coach, you know, commercial real estate brokers and investors across the country and a variety of reasons, but I have coaches. Matter of fact, I spend time with Gary Vee. You mentioned Gary Vee. I spend time with Gary Vee and others to teach me I don't know what I don't know. I have intellectual curiosity. I'm ignorant to the fact I don't know what I don't know. And that's what drives me. And so I have a coach who's only 27 years old, but he's my tech coach. And so he called me up and said, rod, get on a zoom call right now. I got to show you something. And this is in January, I think. And I said, okay, what do you want to show me, kid? And it was basically, that was my attitude. We were show me, kid. And he showed me ChatGPT. And I saw right there, I recognized immediately the world changed. It just did. To see the power of what you could do and what ChatGPT was in January is vastly different than it is today. Vastly different. There is today. I can't imagine what's going to be next year. So, James, I just knew it because I saw the process and process driven as well. The processes that can be created instantaneously to allow us to do things more quickly and yes, more effectively and in much greater magnitude. So, James, let me give you an example, okay? You're an investor, James, I know you're an investor, right? So we invest together. So a broker comes up and tells you, hey, James, I got great news. We're going to list your property, we're going to get it out to the market. And you know, James, how, James, you do this, James, how long does that take? Right now would you say you've meet with an investor to get the property out to the market, get feedback from the market. How long does that take? And I realize it's a range, I get that. But give me your experience. How long could take between how many weeks, months?

How long could take, I would say six to eight weeks to be out in the market, to get a Good reception. Have an understanding of what the market is saying about the value of your property.

And I completely agree with you. I completely agree with you. And that's the way it's always been up to today. So today, here's what you can do. Today, Here you can do. Look, let me make it perfectly clear. Here's what you can do today. Now, what happens next, six months will be even faster. But today, once I get the books and records and understand the positioning of the asset and the market materials, all can be exported. Now, with, with AI, the market materials, the pitch deck, the book, the deal vault, all that can be expedited and done in a matter of days, not weeks. It can be. So you can go to an investor today and say, Mr. And Mrs. Investor, give me your. Give me your listing and give me, you know, you're changing. You're going to roll your eyes and shake your head, give me two weeks, give me two weeks and I'll have a response back from the market because this is what AI lets you do. Now, I can email, text, personalized video, personalized video of James Nelson sitting there and personalized video to thousands of investors across the globe saying their name in James voice. And James is saying it. Hey, Betty. Hey, Bob. Hey, Steve. Hey, Joe. Text, emails, personalized voicemail drops and campaigns that you can automate and get the message out to thousands of investors with all those mediums in a matter of hours. You now can. That exists today. I know, because we're using it and we're building more of it. So what that means is as the Fed continues to be the Fed and we all love the Fed, right? And they say interest rates are going up again. Well, would you rather wait six weeks to sell this asset and get market response or would you rather wait six days? Well, of course you'd rather wait six days because speed kills deals today, James. The market accelerants are there. Now, brokerage has not figured it out yet. They haven't. They haven't figured out all the tools and platforms to do this. But I'm telling you, before the end of the year, you'll be able to do this, James. You'll be telling your investors, we can get you an answer in two weeks. You will. You don't believe me? You're crazy. It's there. The information is there. The platforms are all there to make it happen.

Yeah, Rod, that does not. I've certainly heard of that and I've even been pitched by a tech startup and this was of a canvassing tool where they Said, okay, that exact same thing that you said can reach out and actually have, interact and have conversations with owners about their properties. Now, that's not, you know, that, that, that, that's not something that I would feel comfortable doing right now to let an AI platform simulate a conversation with an owner on whether or not they're looking to sell. But it would not surprise me if there's investors out there. I mean, I kind of think back, you know, to some of the happy investors we've had on the show who used to write handwritten notes to all the owners, Are you interested in selling your property? And then there's, you know, machines that would write those letters. So, I mean, this is the, the next evolution. So I think part of it is kind of picking and choosing. You know, what are these advances in technology that would work for your business? And ultimately, and I, I learned this from our good friend Bob Nackel, that time is our most valuable asset. Right. There's only so many hours in the day. So if we, at the very least, if this can just create efficiencies in our workflow. Right. And free up more time. Right. That. That's a huge opportunity. Right.

So you mentioned a word, you mentioned, which I think is going to be the word that people will struggle with, is comfort. I'm not comfortable with a machine calling on my behalf or this. James, I'm telling you because I've seen it. I saw it this morning. It's going to be your voice having a conversation with investors or whomever, and it'll be truly a seamless conversation with no detection that is not really you that exists today. It's not Markly. It's not out in the market yet, but it does exist. And so, James, look, are you more apt to get more deals if you make 100 calls a week? You make a thousand calls a week. We know what the answer is. So magnitude, speed, the market's changing. It's scary. Yes, but you can go back and hide. You can attack it and adapt and say, okay, I need to be in the forefront of this.

Well, it is certainly exciting. And as you mentioned, I mean, this is a pivotal time, right, where suddenly, you know, again, this whole world is opened up in front of us. So. But, but I don't want to. As exciting as this space is, I know there was a lot more lessons in your book than just leveraging technology. I mean, something that really resonated with me and what I've certainly, you know, found incredibly important in my career in advising clients is that it really seems that these brokers who you featured really view themselves as advisors, trusted partners. And I know sometimes these words get overused, but truly putting yourself in your client's shoes and saying, well, if I own the property, what would I do? And so I think that's, that's really important. And I'm sure that came through. And I know you, you wrote on it, but maybe talk a little bit about that as well, because certainly, as I kind of lay out the team and the platform in the book, we talk about how important it is to have the right people. So for, for investors out there, what should they be looking for in a real estate broker today?

Well, you know, it's funny. This is a conversation I had just recently on Twitter, and someone asked a similar question. You know, what questions you ask your broker? And so when you read Dominators, they all. And James, you as well, you know, I mean, you're, you're the leader here as well. You know, a broker's role is, is it the facilitation of a transaction or is it getting the client the results they're staking? Right. So the results they're staking should be the latter. By the way, obviously, most brokers, commodities, look at a transaction. The dominators, the authorities, the advisors, they look at the facilitation of a relationship. That's what matters. So one question I would always ask a broker is, tell me a time where you advised your client not to sell if they can't figure out an answer. I've never done that. I've never once. Well, you got a problem, you just do, right? Because obviously they're seeking the fee. And it's funny, I just wrote a white paper on this. The five mistakes every investor makes. I just wrote a white paper. I haven't published it yet. The five mistakes every investor makes when hiring brokers. So one is, one is obviously they're transaction oriented. You can't do that. Number. Number two is they're not specialists. You know, saying I could help you with your retail space when they've never done a retail deal isn't going to help you. It's not brokers, the dominant brokers, who they are. James, you're a specialist. You have a team of specialists, which is even better. So you can have diversified requirements for your clients. They need to be specialists. Also. Mistake. I tell you right now, I think one mistake most investors make is they focus on the fee versus the result. Huge mistake. Huge mistake. You're trying to save pennies. In fact, you can make Millions of dollars more allowing a broker to do what they do and do well. It's just a fact. Some brokers, some investors, it's like when I bought a computer, right? When you bought a computer, or your dad, remember your mom and dad did, it got to be an IBM back in the day. Right. And then it had to be a Hewlett Packard, and now it has to be a Dell or a Mac. Right. The safe choice. What's the safe choice? Because I'm not going to go with some risky choice. So I'm going to go with. And I look, we have clients in every firm. I'm not, I'm not favoring one over another. I'm going to go with cbre because they're the biggest on the planet versus go with Jim Brown. Right. Don't focus on the firm, focus on the broker. The broker is the one that's going to be the talent and skills and knowledge and his or her team that's going to get you the results, not the firm. So when you look at all those elements, I think there's a way for investors to really look at brokers in a different perspective, a different lens, and decide what's the best fit for me and my needs at this point in time.

You know, I couldn't agree more. And I would certainly add to that that a great broker can help make introductions for you, not just for deals, but really help whether it's finding equity, helping find debt, other partners, professionals in the space. I mean, we've heard time and time again that this business is about the people, so really important. And I love your questions about qualifying the broker and, you know, asking specific questions like that and that, that's certainly what I love, Rod, about your book and your content is that you do get really specific. So, you know, another thing. So our company, we had the, the pleasure of having Malcolm Gladwell come in and speak to our company. And I mean, the guy is brilliant, has such an interesting perspective. One of my favorite authors, and the question came up with, you know, we're, we're spending a lot of time analyzing data. How do we make the best decisions? And Malcolm's take is, yes, we're at the, we're in the golden age of data. We have more data now than we've ever known what to do with. So now it becomes that much more important for the broker or for your advisor to understand how to leverage the data. Right. So I'm curious, you know, what thoughts you would have on that statement where you've seen that and Again, really playing into that advisory role.

Yeah. You know, there can be an argument that what business are we in, even from a broker standpoint. Right. Are we in the real estate business or in the information business? And they can be argued we're in the information business. I understand that completely. So. But here's again, without tilting towards the AI side, the access to information has been exponentially enhanced in the last three months than ever has been. It just has been. Right. You could look at. There are bots right now trading stocks. You know, there always have been pots trading stocks, always the last 10, 15 years, but now that has enhanced more. So won't that still be true for commercial real estate? Commercial real estate trends and prices and comparables and financing rates and leverage and debt and whatever. Whatever debt stack it might be. You could do that. It's gonna be a matter of weeks till that comes out. It just will be. So I think the broker needs to understand how to best harness information and most importantly, share with the investor. This is what specifically means to you, not to the market, to you with your asset and your debt and your position and your structure and your partners. This is what it means to you. The broker that can translate that and be that lever is the broker's gonna win all the time.

Love it. And spot on, as always. So, Rod, it'd be great if you could talk a little bit about your investor program. And I'm. I'm really thrilled to be on the advisory board. And, you know, maybe you can talk a little bit about the impetus on why you started this coaching program and then maybe walk us through the steps. And, you know, we've got a lot of listeners, many seasoned investors, but we also get a lot of aspiring investors. And so, you know, maybe if you can kind of talk them through the highlights of your. Your course and how you get everybody started, I think that would be super helpful as well.

Yeah, well, I appreciate that. You know, we found, you know, a lot of brokers want to become investors. That's. That's right, that. So commissions are great, but equity is much better. It just is. Right. So there's commissions and there's wealth. So to build true wealth. And in theory, I don't believe in passive income. There's no such thing as passive income. You're working for it no matter what. But tax is passive. So we started out by assisting a number of commercial real estate brokers who said, I want to learn how to invest. And James, it's so fortunate that you're not one of these folks. And You've figured it out. That's why you're on. You're a board of advisors on this enterprise is. We were shocked to find the aptitude of investing knowledge from a broker perspective compared to a professional investor was night and day. It just was, right? Brokers, commodity brokers, look at an asset based on an IRR or some cap rate and say, this is where the asset lies. This is where it is. When you look at the due diligence that goes behind, if you're an investor, you know this, you're listening, you know this for a fact, right? The amount of due diligence that goes behind any opportunity pre offer is absolutely unfathomable to most brokers. It just is. So when we start working with some brokers, initially we just had to understand, first of all, you're not investing until you invest and there's a lot of work to be done, a lot of work to be done on the due diligence side as well as the offer side as well as the syndication side and partner side. All those elements we discuss in this program. But most brokers have no idea about everything. I just shared with you. What do you mean about bringing the partners and getting a pitchbook and looking to due diligence and looking at all these aspects? So what's common knowledge, common sense to your investor audience, believe it or not? And they're thinking, well, brokers must know this. They don't. They just know the basic financial aspects of a transaction. And James, you're a broker investor, you tell me, do you think that's accurate?

I think it's absolutely accurate. And I've, I heard about this firm, Helmsley Spear, where back in the day they said, before you broker a property, you need to buy a property and own it. Because their whole point is, if you don't understand what it takes to own and operate property, how can you be a broker? Right? And so I think there's a lot of truth to that. I mean, and it's also, you know, is it an inch deep, a mile wide where the brokers, you know, we see a lot of transactions, right? We try to be involved in a lot of different things where a serious investor, developer, they might only do two, three deals a year. So they get really deep in understanding, you know, the why and how we come to these numbers. Right? So it's, it's, I think, vitally important that if you want to be a good broker, that you need to understand the investor mindset and vice versa as well. I mean, I think. And that's why I dedicated a chapter in my book to those broker relations and how that works and how a broker is seeing things. So I think it's, it's under. It's really important to understand both sides of the equation.

Yeah. And, you know, and that's what differentiates you, and that's why you're in the book, James, is that, you know, think about how you've ascended. I mean, you were a power broker 10 years ago. You were right, and look where you are today. Besides, it's from phenomenal podcast and now a book, and now your presence on social media. I mean, and we see that with dominators, they're always growing and going places that just commodities don't go. And that's why, you know, you're included in that, that upper echelon of professionals.

Well, Rod, you're very kind, but as you know, I have simply been following your roadmap and I think, you know, and I still love your presence pyramid. And I think it'd be helpful to share with our audience what that's all about. Because, look, I believe that being top of mind is, again, if you want to be whatever business you're in. Right. I. I think to, to be top of mind, maybe you could first talk about what that means, because I don't think it's just plastering all over the place that you're number one. I don't think, you know, that kind of goes to. To used to teach us everybody's favorite radio station, wifm. So maybe you could talk a little bit about that. Because I think again, if you're looking, if you're an investor, you're willing, you're looking to build your presence. I mean, this works for brokerage, it works for investing. So maybe talk a little bit about your presence pyramid, how it all works, and how you, of course, have been so successful in building your business as well.

Well, it definitely applies to investors as well. And we're hearing stories all over the country because we're seeing deals with this investor group all over the country. And by the way, deals are happening. They absolutely are. But when people are saying, I'm interested in investing in this asset, they're getting feedback. Who the hell are you? I never heard of you. What have you invested in? How big is your bank account? Give me some validation that I can even talk to you. Those days that we're like, what, you're kidding. I want to invest? No, you got. Investors now have to qualify themselves more than ever before. And having a presence is part of that qualification validation piece. You know what? Everything we do at mossmo is based on a P factor, we call it. We say, what's your value prop? What do you bring to the table? How big is your presence? And from that, how do you ask for the business and presence? Because we're asking for the business. Because if you ask for the business without the presence, the question is, who the hell are you? Right? I don't know anything about you. Don't trust you, don't like you. And that's why presence is so important. You have to make sure that you've established a presence as an investor, as a broker in the marketplace. So people will say, you know, I think I've heard of you. I've seen your stuff for a year. I've watched you on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, this outlet, this podcast, the book, whatever it might be. So, presence, how do you create presence? How do you create a strong presence? You think of a triangle, you cut it in two, in thirds, right? Cut it in thirds. So the top of the triangle of the pyramid is your smallest piece, and that's your personal presence. You only have so many opportunities to personally meet with people, go out. You can give a knuckle bump or a hug or shake hands. That's what I mean by personal presence. And that's a small piece, but you got to do that. Especially now. Pandemics are, get the heck out of your house and office. Go meet people. Second part of that, a larger tier, would be the physical presence. What you send out, tangible items you send out to people. Could be newsletters, could be books, could be letters, could be brochures, pitch decks. Physical pieces work and that you can give to a broader audience. Because, well, look, I can meet with three people a week, or I can mail out 100 pieces a week, a broader audience. And the third tier down below is your digital presence, and that's all social media. This outlet is actually a digital presence piece. It's a digital form of creating a presence. And that obviously you can do a much broader audience. I could now talk to thousands of people with a tweet versus I can't physically meet with them. So what we found when. And we track everything. We track everything at Massimo because numbers matter. Those that integrate all three levels of their presence pyramid, the personal, the physical, the digital, they tend to create the greater presence and get more opportunities than those that don't. So that's why we think presence is paramount in everything you do.

James could not agree more. And, Rod, let's talk about the actual content. So what should our listeners, our investors, what should they be talking about to register most with their audience? And I'm pretty sure, Rod, that you're a big Donald Miller fan as well. In fact, I think you might have been the one, I'm sure, who introduced me to his work. So maybe talk about what that's all about and as people are looking to put out great content, what that should include?

Well, Donald Miller wrote the book building your story brand. Fantastic book for anyone, whether you're a marketer or not. That book is one of my all time favorite marketing books. Donald Miller. And yes, I spent a couple of days with Donald Miller as well. I immerse myself with coaches, but the concept of storytelling. Right. So your content should be in a story. It should be. But more so the value you bring. So why does an investor post on social media a recent deal they lost and why and how they're feeling, or deal they won and how it was structured? Specifically how it was structured. People want to know you bring value. There's a gentleman in social media and I won't give his handle out because I just don't think it's required. He has hundreds of thousands of followers. He's an investor. He's an investor and all he does is share his deal stories. That's all he does. And people resonate with that. Okay, why did you invest in this? Why did you not invest in that? Tell me why people want to become investors. Look, if you start creating a following and a presence digitally and you go out to invest and go, cheese and crackers, you're that guy or that woman or whatever, that works. So your content has to be just authentic. And again, Gary Vee. Talk about Gary Vee. You have to be. Your voice has to be authentic. And I truly believe there's a new guru out now, James. I don't know if you've heard of him. New girl, Alex Hormozi. You've heard Alex Hormozi.

I'm writing, I'm writing the name down. So I, I do not take your recommendations lightly.

He is the man.

Although my, you got to talk to my, my wife because the amount of books that keep showing up in my house, I mean, it's like, so, you know, sooner or later we're not gonna be able to open the door. So. But I'm gonna move this to the top of the queue. So Alex, I'm taking notes here.

He actually does a podcast called the Game, which is the number one entrepreneurial podcast in the country. The Game Former Jim Gym rat who's recently become a just a phenomenal, a phenomenal entrepreneur. But he's about to produce, he's about to launch a book next week. And he already has 300,000 people understand this. 300,000 people coming to his book launch party online. Okay, Alex Hormozi. So again, and Alex would tell you, he would tell you if you would follow him, you can follow him, that just give away your stuff, truly give away your best stuff. Now, James, I'm an old guy. I've been really hard to give away our best stuff. I really have. But I'm starting to do it. And you know what? It just makes me create better stuff because I give away my good stuff. Create better stuff. Just give away everything. So if you're an investor, tell what's going on. No one's going to be embarrassed, you know, no one's going to say, you know, you failed at this deal, you succeed at that deal. It's not a boasting thing, it's not a pride thing. Just share authentically what you do. And if you do that, look, someone's going to know if you go in and give an offer to someone, they're going to say, give me your, give me your cv, give me your resume on transactions. You better have that written and share with them all the deals you've done and you want. And why? Because they need to know that presence is presence. It's content, it's everything.

Yeah, I love the, the transparency, the sharing. No one, you know, the older school of real estate and brokerage is knowledge is, is power. And so you keep everything close to the vest and that is your competitive advantage, is that you don't share. And I'm going to build a mode around it and you have to work with me if you want this information. And, you know, maybe that, you know, worked for a while, but certainly not a way to build or scale a business. So I love the fact, and it's really this abundance mentality as well to share and to help empower others. And I, I really like to think that, you know, the website that I have, and yes, it's called james nelson.com but if you go there, you're not going to see, you know, photos of me, you know, talk. You know, James is the number one broker in, in New York City. It's, you know, it immediately leads off with how can you gain the insider's edge to real estate investing? And there's great content and value for the audience for free to help others and look, you can't go at this with a quid pro quo thinking. Okay, well, I'm gonna give some information, but I need something in in return. I, I think if you continue to plant seeds like this, I mean, Rod, someone's going to be listening to this, you know, five years from now, and, and they're going to call you. They're going to want to join your investor program, or more likely, they. They'll go to AI and say, scan every single podcast that's ever been given and tell me the best way to get real estate coaching, and that that's how they'll. They'll find you. They might not even have to listen to this. But in all seriousness, I mean, that's.

What happened already, James. Every one of your podcasts would be already scanned and they'll say, give me the episode where the guy talked about AI and going straight to the episode with this clip saying, here's what they talked about that exists today, James. So, yes, that will happen.

It's happening right now as we speak.

It does.

So, Rod, with only a couple minutes left to go and just, again, so grateful for your time and again, this abundance mentality, we do have so many aspiring investors who listen the show, and many of them actually in college right now thinking about their, their next move. So what advice would you give to the aspiring investor new to real estate? What would you tell them to do? And maybe some career advice as well. How do you get started?

Jamestown on the investment side, or in just getting started, period?

We could say getting started, period, because I, I think that many would say that brokerage is a tremendous way if you have interest in investing, that brokerage is a great way. But I, again, I don't want to. I don't want to lead the witness, so to speak.

Look, it's not about getting coached. No. But it is about getting a mentor. It's about getting a mentor. So what can you do right now? And you can find them while you're in college. Find a mentor in the industry that you're interested in, period. And look, mentorship is easy if you don't ask too much. And you just don't ask too much. Look, my, my objective is to learn as much as I can about investing or about brokerage or about development or about whatever sector you want to get involved in. Find a mentor. I had a mentor when I was, when I was in college. Right. It taught me just about general real estate. That was it. Right. Also, I had my father who taught me a lot back then as well. Then when I was in grad school, I got summer jobs and they were always going to be in real estate at that time. But I kept those people as mentors and I kept on calling them and asking them questions. A mentor, be someone you just call once in a while and say, hey, I got a question kind of test. I'll spend some time with you. A mentor's be a commitment. A lot of people worry about that word, commitment. I don't have time to do this. Think about more just having someone you can ask questions to. That's where I would start. While you're in college and of course when you graduate, that mentor's gonna be your first call you're gonna make to find the job you want. That's obvious. But you should have more than one mentor. You should. Look, I have 1, 2, 3. I have five coaches right now, five coaches teaching me different things about different stuff. Right? They're all mentors. Some are younger than me probably most are younger than me, actually, and a couple are older than me. Get mentors. Mentors are the best thing you could do right now.

I love it. And I do want to press you a little bit on that because, and this is something that we've talked about on this show before, but you know, my, my feeling is mentorship should not be a one way street. So if you are the mentee and you're the one who's just making the request, hey, I want to ask you some questions. That is probably, I'm going to guess, is not the best way to begin a mentorship relationship. So maybe talk a little bit about that.

Yeah. So look, I do believe in these three questions. I think the three best questions you ever ask anyone is what's new, right? What's new since we last talked, what's new, what's next? What are you working on? What do you need? Right. And then third is always, how can I help? If you just ask those three questions, by the way, you're going to get a lot of money. You're going to make a lot of money. If all you just ask those three questions, what's new? What's next? How can I help? And the third one be, you better figure out how you can help. So for example, in the book, there was a gentleman named Mark Myers who's a senior housing fantastic broker out of Chicago. Well, during the pandemic, all his clients, they were shut down. There was no brokering going to happen for years. We knew that. Right. So what did he do? He reached out to China and Found suppliers for PPE because no one can find PPE at the time. Right. Personal protection equipment. And he found suppliers for his clients for their ppe. Had nothing to do with making commissions, had nothing to make money, had to do something with helping and providing value. So in a two way street, if you're going to mentor, how can I help? How can I help? That's how you help.

I love it. And that also makes me think I just saw a little clip where Barbara Corcoran was talking about how interns can find permanent jobs jobs. And she said, just always do 50 more than what's asked. And I love that because she says, who. Who do you think we're going to hire? It's going to be the person who goes to any length. So that's why. And I do a monthly career advice zoom. And I always say, you never want to ask a potential employer what, what's your hybrid work policy? If you're going to ask any question, ask how often can I show up to the office? So, you know, just demonstrate the office open, Right? That's right. So, Rod, this has been so much fun and every single time we collaborate, I just get so much value. So I really hope that, that our audience here was taking notes, but I want to end this and I'm pretty sure if we go back and listen to the last recording. I'm sure I brought this up before, but in addition to these incredible books that you've written on brokerage, one of my, my favorites of yours, and also the title is Knowing isn't Doing. Okay, so you have just heard incredible information and insight. So, Rod, that all being said, knowing isn't doing. So what would you say is your parting words on how our listeners can actually make this information actionable and put into practice?

Yeah. So, yeah, knowings and doing, don't kid yourself that that is still my, my favorite book. But look, I just gave you a couple websites, a couple of authors, a couple of things. James, I did share with you during this podcast that you can go check out right now and learn more. Intellectual curiosity is going to be the way to grow. It just. It just is. So, you know, be the doer. In fact, it's funny, I just, I just got an email today, Warren Buffett. He said, what's the difference? The number one difference between the doers and the duds, according to Warren Buffett, it is the doers consistently invest in themselves. They consistently learn more. Just like those in dominators of commercial real estate brokers. Those are the doers. Don't be a dude.

Well, that's a great way to end things, Rod. Thank you as always. How can our audience find you?

We're always available at Massimo M A S s I m o-group.com love to talk to anyone about any you need. We're here to help. How can we help? Thanks, James.

Awesome. Love it. And as always, you can find show notes and a lot of helpful pieces of information for you to help gain the insider's edge to real estate investing@james nelson.com and I'm going to actually take a tagline out of Rod's podcast which is if you like this episode, share it, right? Send it to a friend. Share it, I think to your dog. I think you even said just get, get the word out there. That's how we spread the word. Let's have that abundance mentality. So thank you as always for joining. This is your host, James Nelson. Until next week.

Thank you for listening to the Insider's Edge to Real Estate Investing. We appreciate your subscribing and sharing with your friends. If you haven't already, please connect with James at James Nelson NYC on LinkedIn in the Instagram and Twitter. Please also visit jamesnelson.com where you can find the show notes and other episodes along with an exclusive video series and other helpful resources so you can gain the insider's edge to real estate investing. Until next week.