Mini Series on Investment Sales - Brokerage Mastery with Marion Jones

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Welcome everyone to our third and final installment of our mini series on investment sales Brokerage. I'm your host, James Nelson, principal and head of U.S. investment sales. And with us again is Marion Jones who is our executive managing director for US Capital Markets here at Avison Young. And you know, after getting a lot of requests, they said, James, you've had these great shows interviewing investors, developers. I myself am a broker. I'd like to learn more about how to be a good broker. And so we've put together this three part miniseries. So if you haven't heard the first part that was really geared towards those starting out in investment sales brokerage, the second installment then covered for those of you who are kind of five, 10 years in the business and today we're gonna be talking about brokerage mastery. But look, this is, this episode will be helpful to you. Whether you're just a broker or let's say you're a principal or let's say you're in any other business where you're looking to grow your presence and your knowledge base. A lot of these principles are certainly universal. So Marian, with that, how would you like to kick off the conversation?

You know, James, one thing I was thinking about as we were, you know, leading up to today was how do we really define mastery?

Right?

Maybe it' a good sort of way to kick us off is to think about how do we define mastery? If you're an investment sales broker, what does that mean?

Right?

Is it, does it, is it a revenue number? Is it, you know, is it a certain level of comfort across different types of transactions? What do you think mastery means?

Yeah, I'm actually thinking of was it, I love Malcolm Gladwell and I'm trying to remember which book it was where he talked about the 10,000 hour rule. And you know, for those of you who have not read the book, it's definitely. Well first off, to tell you what the book is, I'm trying to remember if it was Tipping Point or blank, but we'll put in the show notes which one it was. But you know, a lot of People think, oh, well, did the Beatles just show up one day?

Tipping point?

Were they just, you know, these incredibly gifted musicians? Of course they were, but it was really the reps, right? And a lot of people don't realize that the Beatles supposedly played outside a, you know, a pub in England, basically gigging, you know, throughout the whole day and just thousands of hours playing together, just understanding and really mastery. But I think, you know, intuitively knowing how to handle situations, right? And so when you've gotten to a point and Marianne, I know we've both been doing this for, you know, approximately the same amount of time. And when you've. I think really the. One of the parts that I really enjoy about the business is the problem solving. And no two situations ever seem to be the same, right? So you're always dealing with new things. And for me, part of the fun is figuring out, you know, how do you present solutions. But above all, when you do that, and we've talked about this in kind of the prior segments to this, it's. It's very much being aware and putting yourself in the client's shoes, right? So. So really understanding, not just leveraging that knowledge base, but saying, okay, well, what's in the best interest of the client and how do we help the client solve their issues?

I like that. Two things that you just said that kind of resonated with me. One was that you've put in so many reps that you kind of have this intuition, right? So the intu. Intuition is something that, you know, we all have some level of intuition about situations or people or whatever, but really refining your intuition and learning to sort of trust it, I think that's when a really masterful broker will see the pitfalls and the landmines and the risk before they're even on the horizon and can help navigate clients around those risks and those potential pitfalls. And it's just. It's almost like a sixth sense that you have, you know, and I can't. I'm sure you feel this way sometimes. You know, you're about to. To award a contract, and some sort of, you know, very subtle, nuanced little communication comes from the buy side, and you're thinking, I'm not feeling the same level of commitment I got from these guys two weeks ago or three weeks ago. And so it doesn't necessarily mean that you pivot course, but you take it as a data point and you let that inform kind of your intuition about sort of how to proceed from there and how to advise your clients. So. And Sometimes it means that we do more diligence on those buyers. There's a lot of different ways to handle. But I think your point about intuition was really great. And then the other thing, you're talking about the Beatles, which, you know, I, like, grew up with father who made us listen to the Beatles, you know, all the time, hours on end in the car when we go on road trips. So Beatles are really special. And it's a great example because not only do they put in all the hours and the reps, but I also think, you know, I always like to talk about teams and team chemistry. And they developed such an amazing chemistry that brought out each other's genius and. And they put in those reps together. And so I think it's a really apt comparison or metaphor because we are, you know, you can achieve mastery, but I think you get there better when you're surrounded by great people that you've got chemistry with and you've got feedback from, and you can kind of tackle things in unison.

Marian, I'm so glad that you brought that point up, because business mastery is not just being, you know, the best solo lone wolf broke. Sure, we all know examples of those brokers that have been doing this for decades, and they seemingly do it all on their own. But I will tell you that 9 out of 10, if not 99 out of 100 of the most successful brokers are there because they have an incredible team. And so, yes, that is building the right team. That's certainly a huge part to. I know what we're doing here, not just in New York, but now across the country. I think at the core of that is also understanding what everyone's strengths are.

Right.

And so I think, you know, regardless, again, if you're doing brokerage or you're on the principal side, understanding what is where, can you add the most value, Right. And then complementing that with other people who, you know, look. Do I know how to look at an ARGUS run? Absolutely. Could I underwrite a deal on argus? No. You know, so having the right team to analyze a deal, to do the diligence and, you know, get that transaction done is really important because this is a huge. If you want to grow your business, you really have to take that team approach and couldn't agree with you more about having that experience, you know, on our team, you know, I should look at what the average tenure is working the group. It's probably at this point close to 10 years.

Right.

And if you look at Scott Singer's group, I think he's got people who he's been working with now for decades, and that does a lot.

And, you know, there's so much to be said for the team and the team chemistry. And you were talking about leveraging each other's strengths and finding the complementarity. And, you know, I'll share that. I think one of the best business relationships that helped me grow so much and helped me refine my instincts and my intuition and my judgment as it came to sort of all of these little subjective things that can really inform the outcome of a deal and really be very meaningful to your client. One of the best business relationships I had was with a partner, and we just were so trusting and candid with each other, and there was really no ego. So we had the ability, you know, we would take meetings or have formal pitches or, you know, try to help a client out of a, you know, a situation that was fraught or troubled or, you know, they were underwater, and there's a lot of moving parts. And we could just really candidly, after every situation, give each other feedback. And it was just open, honest. There was no ego involved. And he was like, hey, you were really great, you know, kind of covering this one thing. But when we delved into this situation, I, you know, I felt like we could have handled it differently or maybe a little better, and I would do the same for him. And it. But it was like the best relationship. You're really close friends, knew each other really well, and you think about, like, if you're watching, you know, like an NBA team or something, and they know each other's moves so well that, you know, when you're, you know, I'm going to make it sound like I'm a big basketball person, and I'm not. So if I fumble it. But, you know, the reality is, if you're passing and you know that the person is so fast that you're passing, the guard is so fast that you're passing down court, too, that you're pass. You know, that you're passing to him three steps ahead of where he is now.

Right.

You understand your partner's instincts, their movements, where their head is at, how they sort of conduct themselves. And then suddenly you can become not only, like, an incredibly efficient, you know, powerhouse for your clients, but, wow, do I get better when I can work with a team like that and we can give each other feedback and get to know each other so well and just be open and transparent about who's good at what, how we all make it work as a team for the Greater good.

Yeah, I love that you're bringing this up. And we're talking about brokerage mastery, but we're also talking about, you know, how to be a good partner. How do you grow a business?

I think they're hand in hand for sure.

And I know that if you look at what we're doing here in New York, it doesn't happen without, you know, Erica Dean was heading up operations. Now he's taken on a national role. Brandon Polakov, you know, star broker here. Again, we complement each other, right? We're very good. Like, Brandon's really good at getting in the weeds. And he can tell you everything you ever wanted to know about rent regulation. He teaches landlord, tenant attorneys about, you know, certain nuances. Whereas, you know, Eric is tracking, he's figuring out, you know, how do we scale, how do we get the right infrastructure? And, you know, my partners in that business, you know, we challenge each other to your point, and it's like, okay, well, James, it's great you're doing all this, but we need you focusing your time here. I also love coming up with ideas. And Eric, you know, to your point, he, you know, he challenges me on some of them, but also helps me prioritize, right? He says, okay, this is okay, but we can't do a hundred things. Let's do, you know, three things and do them really well. So even on, like, this is a really small example, but I was so glad I posted something on LinkedIn the other day, and I thought I was kind of, you know, making a joke about it. I had visited our San Francisco office and it got this incredible views there. But then I said, oh, you know, New York, we should get some better views in our office. We actually have a great view. We happen to be on the fourth floor. A beautiful view over Fifth Avenue, if.

You like the St. Patrick's Day parade, we have an excellent view.

True. But, James, it seems like, you know, maybe remove that little last part of the post. I say, Mary, thank you first of all for taking the time and noticing. And for me, it's like we're all busy and we're doing stuff. So, like, there was no, like, you know, again, you just said that to make sure, like, let's all help each other and put our best selves first.

So I think that's just part of having each other's back, right? And so we learn from the thing. We all sort of, you know, want the input and the feedback from others. It makes us better. And as we become great partners and teammates and so forth, we get more in return. And so I genuinely believe mastery is just as much about an individual's motivation, instincts, habits, commitment, all of those things, you know, willingness to learn, willingness to push themselves, as it is about, you know, maybe to a certain extent, self selecting into the right environment, into the right team, into the right situation where you can be around great people who will make you better. I think, I don't think you develop mastery on your own. I think you develop mastery with great people around you.

Yeah, you're 100% right. And you know, Marianne, I was going to ask you because, you know, certainly, you know, the team is a big part of success, but also is the platform that you operate on. And I know some of the questions that I've received in the past, whether they're brokers who are just starting out, or maybe they've been at a smaller boutique shop. You know, is it better if I start off at a small shop, go work for a big, you know, global full service firm? So, you know, what would you say to that? I mean, you've worked at some of the top brokerage firms in the world, publicly traded. I mean, here at Avis and young, we've got 120 office around the world. We're full service. So we're not, not the biggest out there. But you've seen kind of the benefits of the different types of platforms. So for our brokers out there, listening, thinking about, you know, am I in the right shop? You know, where can I, you know, be most helpful to the clients? How would you answer that?

You know, and I do think this is one of those topics that is really applicable to the principal side too. We've seen, you know, so many of our friends and clients and peers in the industry kind of come up through the principal side in different ways. So, you know, I think when you're at one of the really bigger shops, you have access to great research, you have access to incredible professionals who have great relationships and are really sort of masters of their craft. And there's a lot of them, right, because the scale is there. So there's a lot of them. So, you know, I think that can be a good environment for some folks. I think it's increasingly hard to develop mastery at really, really small firms. I'm talking single office firms. It can happen. And there's a lot of passion and commitment sometimes in those places. I think our business has become very interdisciplinary and very complex. And so I do think there's an advantage to a certain amount of scale. If you're really talking about developing mastery. So I do think there's an advantage. You know, what I like about our scale is that we have the ability to really see the individual.

Right?

We have the ability. I mean, I take great pleasure and fulfillment and understanding exactly who our people are, what they're great at, what is their hidden genius, and how do we sort of help them position themselves within the platform so that we can extract that genius out of them and that we can do it for the benefit of our clients and also do it for the benefit of sort of the greater platform and certainly to the benefit of that individual is they're all, you know, seeking. You know, I think there's no real final mastery.

Right.

We're all in constant growth. So I, you know, I. What I like about our scale, where we're very large in certain respects, but we're kind of in this middle zone where maybe we're not as big as our publicly traded larger competitors, but we can invest in the individual and we can really see the individual in a way that I think is unique and really competitive. And it works. You know, I mean, I, I don't want this sound too much like an Amos and Young commercial, and hopefully, hopefully I'm not. So forgive me if I have done that. But I'm just watching it in time play out that we're able to sort of be really nimble and craft the talents of individuals in a way that can be scaled and leveraged appropriately. So I think it's a little harder to do that when you're in a really big place. So I'm grateful for the opportunity to get to know every single individual and try to, you know, work with them to help best position them individually.

Yeah, you bring up a lot of great points here. And you know, it's. There's different perspectives on this.

Right.

And I would say, you know, kind of channeling my mentors and where I started my career with Bob Nackle and Paul Massey, and they were saying, okay, we're going to take the city, we're going to carve it up into territories. And you are the expert at this neighborhood. 50 blocks, you track everything that goes on there. And I even covered it in my book and I said, whether you're doing brokerage, whether you're investing, become an expert. And it's hard to become an expert when you're a generalist, right? So, you know, obviously in brokerage, you can do investment sales, you can be a debt equity advisor, you can do leasing, you can do management, property management. But if you're talking about sales, you know, picking an asset class, picking a geography. I think that's really helpful.

Right.

And that's, you know, that applies kind of for. Certainly if you're starting off in the business, certainly if you're in that five to ten year role. But when we're talking about brokerage mastery, at that point you very well could be leading a division and you have people on your team. So, for example, here in New York, you know, we have a multifamily division, a retail, an office, a land sale. Right. So we have that specialty in house. And you know, those people running those groups, like, if you ask Brent Gladowski about retail, he knows more about it than I do in the city, as he should.

Right.

Because he's really been able to focus. And so it's kind of a long way of saying, because, you know, the idea of do you work, you know, a small firm where, you know, your focus is very specific.

Right.

So if you ask Bob Nackal, he'd say, say, you know, I'm the land sale expert in New York and that. And he tracks every transaction and yes, he knows it through. And, you know, at the same time, I've asked Bob and my observation and part of my excitement of taking on this national role here for Avis and Young is, look, for 25 years, I focused my brokerage career on New York, where I had the blinders on, where I had all these investors who I was just talking to them. In some cases, New York was a huge part of the piece of. In some parts, it was just a sliver of the pie. Right. And. But someone should have told me, you know, given me the memo in 2019. And you probably remember in New York, that was when Albany passed the Housing Stabilization Tenant Protection Act. And all of a sudden, investors who had prided themselves in having their entire portfolios here in New York were all of a sudden saying, you know what? The government's changing the rules on me here. And I don't know if that's a good idea to have any. Everything here in New York. Let me think about diversifying my portfolio. And the interesting thing, and we've, we can put this report out there, we've been tracking the capital flows from New York and going to other markets. So this is a very long way of saying that if I was just at a boutique firm that was New York focused, it would be, okay, I can help you here in New York, but like, good luck, you know, as you start to search out these other markets.

Right.

But like now, in this role, it's like, I don't have to know every single market out there, but we have 60 offices across the US and if you want to go invest in Dallas, I can introduce you to Susan Burks or Mike Kennedy in our office, and they know the lay of the land. And if I have the relationship here, I can say, hey, look, let me make the introduction. You're in good hands.

Right.

You know, so that's, again, it depends how you want to grow your business. And again, not just talking about brokerage, but if you're an investor, like, if you're thinking now about investing nationally, well, okay, what's your plan? Are you part of a company that has boots on the ground, or do you have partners, resources? That's something you have to think about because it's tough to expand if, you know, everything is just focused in one specific area, if that makes sense.

Right.

And look, I think mastery will look different for different individuals. And, you know, there's no one formula. But I do think your environment, both your immediate team and your platform, really inform how quickly you can get there.

Right.

And, you know, to what degree that you're going to keep growing. So what I, you know, what I love about what you're doing, which I think is so cool, is that, you know, you've kind of been. You're very humble, but, I mean, I would say you have developed true mastery in, you know, what you do, but you keep pushing yourself to do more and to think about things differently and to keep growing. And so to me, that's the sign of someone who can be. Achieve or someone who can be a true master or achieve true mastery is they're never done, right? They're never done. There's all, you know, you're noticing the memo that, you know, or the sort of the, the capital trends, the flight of capital out of New York, and it started happening in. In other gateway cities where capital was saying, we see better growth opportunities in other markets, we're gonna, we're gonna reallocate and reshuffle our portfolio. You know, seeing that and saying, well, how do we help better serve our clients? And how do I personally keep growing and expanding? And I think that's, you know, that's part of it is this, you know, view that I can always keep challenging myself to do better and to do more and to take it up another level. And then you get to that level and you're just inspired to take it up another level, and it just, it never ends and it shouldn't.

Well, Marianne, I definitely appreciate your saying this and I know that you share in the same curiosity. And look, I mean, you could have spent your entire business focused here in, you know, New York as well. But you know, you're excited also by the opportunity to help grow the platform and do business across the country. And for me, again, whether it's brokerage or if it's investing, I think kind of that, that intellectual curiosity and continuing to grow, you know, if you're just doing the same thing over and over, you know, I probably would have gotten bored of this business long ago, but like the challenge of going into new markets, meeting new people, figuring out different capital stacks and how to get deals done, I mean, it's really fascinating and it's what makes things so interesting. Now I was going to ask you because I think, you know, in this discussion and thinking about, you know, brokerage and you know, how has it evolved over time. So if we're talking about master, we're also talking about maybe people who own their own brokerage businesses out there. Maybe it's a boutique firm right now that's thinking like, okay, is the world, you know, passing me by? I mean, what would you say kind of are advancements in the brokerage business and how are firms like ours better helping clients? Like, what are things that brokers need to think about to stay competitive?

So I think the access to great information and the ability to take data and data analytics and research and really not just see trends, but sort of get ahead of them. That is really important. And I do think it's really hard to do in a boutique place. There are wonderful boutiques out there and they are great at what they do. So I want to, you know, not sound so negative, but gosh, it's hard. It is really hard. So I do think that the data analytics, the understanding of sort of, you know, this is a very. We're, we live in a time right now the market is a bit volatile. We are undergoing massive structural shifts to our economy. And also with technology, with just the way we do business, I mean, we're all using AI all the time, right? I mean, all the time. At this point, I think you are too. So we get a lot of efficiency out of it. But as we get more efficient and as we sort of use tools in different ways, so is everyone else, right? So I think that it's access to data, access to not just kind of past looking data, but being able to sort of get in front of trends, give clients advice that is like not backward looking, right? Oh, this is. This is where all the deals were closing six months ago. Well, that doesn't help anybody.

Right.

So I think a lot of it is around not just getting great data, but having the critical thinking kind of apparatus within your platform, like our market intelligence, I think is exceptional. Genuinely believe they're the best at what they do. And that's one component of many. But to me, that's the most important piece is really being able to give our cl. This is a turbulent time, and if we are doing our jobs right, we can really help our clients make good bets and position themselves for success. And I think you got to use the market intelligence to do that.

Yeah, no doubt. And I'm glad I brought up Malcolm Gladwell earlier because it's interesting. He spoke to our company and talked about the fact that we're in this golden age of data. So there's more data now that we've ever had. So then the question is, well, how do you, first of all, what is the right data that you're looking at and then how do you make it actionable? So I know we have a platform called Avant now, we call it Avis and Young Technologies, and it uses 100 adjacent data sources. I mean, some of the things that you all probably see is our business index and anonymized cell phone data and seeing who shows up to the office either in a city or, you know, geofencing, you know, more specific locations. That's just like, you know, kind of step one, if you will. I mean, we go much deeper. And the question is, you know, how, again, how do we help our clients make better informed decisions? So if you're in the healthcare space, it might be looking at where are insurance claims being filed by and who is your patient and where do they live and where do you want to be and advising them where to open up. So again, if you don't have that technology, it's complicated, you know, you're probably not getting it off the shelf. You probably have to develop it in house. It's expensive, so.

Right.

You know, I think you're right to think about those would be some of the reasons why maybe a boutique firm want to join a larger shop to leverage that. But I did and want to talk about, you know, is the brokerage business, is it becoming more consolidated or is it becoming, I don't want to use the word fractured, but, you know, one of the things that Bob Nackel talks about is certainly proud of and it's a wonderful thing to see. But he's now tracked over 30 Massenacle alums who are now at different firms. So who even knew that There was over 30 brokerage firms in New York? There are.

Right.

So the question is the trend that you're going to see more and more, you know, of these smaller brokerage shops or it seems like meanwhile the big shops are still writing big checks, you know, buying talent. You see some of these brokers hop around every five years. They're looking for the next contract. What do you make of all that?

Look, I just, I think that that's just the nature of kind of the business, right. And like, I do find it fascinating, the sort of entrepreneurial legacy of Bob and Paul. Right. And it's, it is fascinating and it's cool. And it's, you know, it's an. For those who are sort of zeroed in on New York, you know, you're familiar with it. For those who are, you know, listening from elsewhere, it's, you know, Bob Nackel and Paul Massie. I think, you know, it's been amazing to watch the kind of Bob and Paul legacy where there are so many, you know, brokers who have achieved mastery. They've opened their own firms. And I don't know to what extent that is unique to New York and sort of the Massie Nackel legacy, I suspect it is somewhat unique to New York. And we're also a very robust marketplace that can accommodate a variety of types of businesses, whether it's small boutiques or, you know, certainly, you know, the larger, you know, publicly traded firms. So I think that, I think it's a little bit of a New York phenomenon would be. My guess is that because it is this dense marketplace and because there are still such, it's such a diversified marketplace. Marketplace from a sort of dollar size.

Right.

I mean, you can still, it's not easy, but you can still find $2 million deals in new York City and you can also find billion dollar transactions to be had in New York City. So I think that diversity of the landscape can accommodate, you know, a lot of different ways of setting up a business in New York. From an individual standpoint, I think, you know, whether you're in New York or in any other marketplace, onus is on you to self select and to ask the right questions and self select into places where you can achieve that mastery, where you are going to feel like you've got the tools, the wind at your back, the access to relationships. And if you're in a sort of a smaller deal space that might look and feel a little different than if you're in a more institutional space. It's all good. There's no better or worse. There's lots of different ways to do this business. But I think the diversity of this particular marketplace place we sit in New York today, today you're all over the place, but today we happen to be sitting in New York. I think that speaks to that diversity of business type.

Yeah, it's. I don't have the stats to back this up, but we'd love to see this analysis at some point is how many sales brokers are there in a market, you know, divided by how many, you know, total trades there are? I think there's probably more brokers here in New York than any market per transaction. So if you look at the 10 year average, there's about a thousand properties that sell in New York City a year. That sounds like a. But if I told you that there was a hundred sales brokers here in New York, I think I probably. When you talk about the teams, Right. We have two dozen people here at Avis and Young alone.

Right.

And you thought about how many brokers are out there, you know, looking to do deals.

Right.

There's a lot of brokers for every potential transaction here. And New York has to be one of the most competitive markets out there.

Right.

And part of it is the scale and there's a lot to do. But you know what?

Everywhere has gotten competitive. I mean, I, you know, I was catching up with some colleagues in Boston who closed a fairly notable deal. And I don't know if it's kind of hit the papers yet, so we'll keep it confidential, but it was a large transaction and they were competing against, you know, a pretty formidable group of competitors. And, you know, and that's just. It's every major market, it's. And it's not just, you know, what we used to think of as like, you know, the primary east and west coast cities. It's everywhere. We know that as capital has flown into or has capital has moved into the Southeast and Texas and other markets that those markets are showing, you know, increased competition. So definitely, you know, New York has always had a competitive culture, whether you're, you know, in real estate or on Wall Street. That's just who New York is.

Yeah.

But, gosh, I, you know, I think we're, we see stiff competition. We're fortunate that we, you know, often have repeat clients and we win that business and it's a great place to be in. But, but, you know, I think the world has gotten competitive.

Yeah. And the data and the access to information has gotten a lot more transparent. So I mean, maybe with the exception in Texas, which is a non disclosure state where you don't have the sales transactions, but theoretically you can go into any market now and you can see what the trades are and you can get up to speed pretty quickly. So that does level the playing field. I will say, and this might be, you know, advice now whether you're someone just starting out in the business, maybe you're five to 10 years into it, maybe you're thinking about reinventing yourself. You've been doing this for a while. You know, maybe you're an industrial broker and you're watching this whole data center boom. You know, I think we should know that there are, the business is evolving and there are sectors that, you know, are growing. I mean, I know a couple years ago life science was going to be the new thing and maybe now that, you know, they're having some challenges and now it seems like, you know, data centers could be, you know, the modern day gold rush and land. And it's just interesting to me, you know, our brokers, you know, the traditional way to enter is going and working for a multif family shop and you know, cold calling. But I don't know, maybe the better approach today is to go and you know, get, you know, get some higher education on, you know, what goes into a data center and how to understand, you know, the power needs and the approval process. So these are things that, you know, even if you've been in brokerage for, you know, 20, 30 years, you know, and you're a great example, this always continuing to educate yourself. I mean we were both out in Denver for uli. A big part of that is sitting in on the product councils and seeing whatever everybody's doing and learning.

Right?

Yeah, yeah, I think that's right. And, and the, I think it's spot on that as you develop mastery you're also, you know, we kind of touched on this before. You're watching the world around you. And so, you know, for me, wrapping my brain around someone who is, you know, sort of stuck to the, what I would call the major food groups for most of my career, really wrapping my brain around some of the specifics and technicalities around data center development and you know, the types, intricacies relative to the power and approval processes and so forth, you know, that's been a learning curve. I'm still on that learning curve but it's important, right. Because I see what's happening around me and I want to be, you know, while I may not be a data ex, a data center expert within our platform, I want to be a valuable team member to those who are. And so it's important to continue to have that, you know, climb that learning scale. But I think that's part of the mastery, right, Is that, you know, we talked about this. You're never not done. I think, you know, if, maybe if it might be helpful to sort of think about what are some of the characteristics or qualities that go into expediting those learning curves. So that if we kind of defined mastery as being able to any given transaction, you sort of have the right instincts and intuition because you put in the reps that you can navigate your client through whatever might emerge.

Right.

And that's maybe one way to look at mastery. You're someone who's saying, saying, not there yet, but I'm close. How do you expedite that time frame? What are the things that person should be doing? Embracing qualities or characteristics or maybe just tactical moves that you would recommend?

Yeah, it's a great question. And continuing to improve and learn. I mean, look, I think that there is on one hand so much information that you can access through top research, if that's what we want to call it. But I believe there's still, and I know you agree, still no substitute for getting out there. And yes, it's a time commitment and the financial commitment to fly out to Denver and, you know, go to a conference like uli, but when you get in the room, you don't know what you don't know.

Right.

And so when you start hearing from people about, okay, these new trends and where to look, then you at least know what are the right questions to ask. And again, that is the part of the business that, that I love and continuing to grow and learn from others. And very much this is still a people business. So, Mary, this has been a fantastic conversation because I know we. We're talking about brokerage mastery. We've talked about a lot more as well. You know, the value of partnerships and how to continue to learn. You know, maybe as we close it out and maybe it's helpful to the audience, but, you know, we talk about brokerage mastery, again, you could just be talking about how do you actually learn to transact better, how to, you know, expand your relationships. But maybe we could talk a little bit about kind of expanding the platform, whether calling, you know, being top of mind. I mean, here we are doing a podcast, and you might say, James Marion, this sounds really sel survey, and you're out here talking about how great brokerage is. I mean, look, I would say that, and hopefully this is helpful. Whether you're, you know, starting out in brokerage, you're growing a business, you're a principal. I think there's a big piece to just kind of putting that knowledge out there. And whether it's a podcast, I know you're a very accomplished speaker and you end up on panels, whether it's white papers, you know, the importance I think of being that subject matter expert and staying top of mind. I mean, what would you say to all of this?

Well, one thing is that one reason why I do enjoy being on panels doing a certain amount of public speaking is that when I like it, I like, you know, I like getting together and having discussions and. But man, it also keeps me on point, right? So I want to be really thoughtful about, you know, what is the message? What are some interesting things that, that we can, you know, share with the group that maybe they haven't heard before or maybe it's even a sort of contrarian way of looking at trends or data. And so I, I think that as people develop mastery, not everyone does a lot of public speaking, that's okay too. But there's a lot of ways to sort of get valuable, actionable kind of thought leadership or, or information to your audience. And, you know, and you're working with an audience that is going to be attracted to not just, you know, your ability to execute, but, you know, what is it like to work with you? Am I going to come out of conversations learning something? Am I going to come out of conversations? Are you user friendly in a way? You know, am I going to come out of, you know, as we're working together and you're representing me in the marketplace, are we going to be able to just kind of develop a rapport where I know that you are constantly thinking about the best way to position me and my interest in our, you know, asset and are you doing that and are you working with me in a way where you're telling me in a transparent fashion if there's something going on with a transaction where, you know, maybe you hit a road bump or there's some other issue that comes up that needs to be addressed? So I think that as you think about these skill sets, right, whether it's public speaking or, you know, your ability to just engender trust and rapport with your clients, so important there you can emphasize many different ones, but a lot of it is really the same thing, which boils down to Am I on top of my information?

Right.

Do I know the directionality of where the market is, of where the trend lines are? Do I know that, you know, we are selling this asset at a cap rate that we priced three months ago, and given market volatility, that cap rate is not available today. So we've got to just do everything to communicate as quickly, efficiently and as transparently as we can with our clients, with lenders, to get short, to get to a place where we're closing before there's a new round of sort of volatility that comes in and jeopardizes the pricing or the execution. So it's a long winded way of saying, you know, all of these things work together. I think the public speaking, the, you know, I like it because it keeps me on point. But the real part of being on point is what you're delivering to your clients and how you're helping them sort of navigate. I mean, this is a very volatile time and it might be for some time.

Right, Right.

So I think all of this is really speaks to the same thing and it's mastery. And there are some folks that are, you know, you do podcasts, you're a great public speaker there. There are other folks who sort of, you know, have probably comparable skill sets and. But they're maybe not as quite as public facing behind closed doors. The way they're advising their clients is just as on point. And that's okay, too. It takes all types. But I think that's what it's about.

Right?

It's really having that great message, having the great information, advising our clients and being, you know, a great partner to them along the way.

Well, Marianne, I've got to give you a huge compliment. I mean, we've known each other definitely 10 years, maybe closer to 20 or somewhere in between, but having the opportunity to work alongside you this past year and watching how you work, so thoughtful and really putting in the time and the work.

Right.

Really thoughtful.

Right.

When you present. And that's been incredibly eye opening to me. I'm kind of, as most people, kind of like a progress as opposed to perfection guy. And I try to put a lot out there and sometimes, you know, you're better prepared than other times. But it's really, I love what you're saying about how these opportunities really help you get clarity and how you communicate that message. So this has been an incredible conversation. I think maybe one last thing I'll leave you all with as we break, because it's funny, I had a client call me me this morning to tell me that he saw the insider's edge to real estate investing on the blink. For those of you who don't subscribe to Blink, basically abstracts books, the blink list, and then condenses it. And he said, james, your book is now the number one book for real estate investing on blink. I'm like, well, I hope they still read the book, but maybe that'll encourage people to do it. But the point is, he then asked me, well, James, why did you write the book? And I've gotten this question a couple times, and the first thing I say is, well, it was mid-2020. We're home, camped out from, you know, when am I ever gonna have time to write a book? But I said, you know, look, for years people always ask me, james, what is the book on real estate investing, right? And, you know, there's the rich dad, poor dad, there's, you know, the textbooks. But I really wanted to write a book that explained how this all works. And so that was kind of the impetus. But I do say, you know, look, it was a passion project and then I wanted to do it. I love speaking at schools and sharing this book. And how does this fit into brokerage mastery? Just to bring us full circle, you know, look, to share this experience, right? To put it out there to help not just brokers, but investors. It really becomes kind of a calling card in that way, but also something that I can put out there for the future. And so, again, you made a great point, Marion, that it doesn't, you know, whether it's speaking on panels, whether it's writing, whether it's a podcast, whether it's a book, you know, you have to find, you know, what is the medium that works best for you. And I think if you are going to do something like this, it also requires a great team. Like, this doesn't happen on my own. You know, for the book, it was having a great writing partner and Rachel Hartman and a great team. So I would encourage you all listening, you know, figure out, you know, what that thing is. There's incredible resources out there, and I want to thank our incredible producer, Nick, who puts on this podcast as well. This doesn't happen with the right people. So I think once you figure out, you know, what is that thing, you know, how do you execute on it is a big part of it all. So I want to thank everybody for joining this. This is a really great discussion. I've had a lot of fun with doing this miniseries with Marion, too. And, you know, we're might be breaking a little bit of news here now, but in the future, you know, would not be surprised if another podcast kind of comes out of this. So we'll just put that out there. But I think we'll be putting more content out there for you in the future. So as always, we really appreciate your listening. You know, the best thing you can do is you can share this episode with someone who would benefit from this. That's really a great thing. Forward Podcasts all the Time. I'm a huge consumer podcast and I really appreciate when people send me things to listen to. So think about doing that. As always, you can go to james nelson.com the site's not about me. I built the site for you. That's where you can find the show notes. That's how you can find out how to connect with Marian and a lot of other helpful things on there. So as always, thanks again and we'll look forward to being in touch with you soon.

This podcast is for educational purposes only and should not be relied upon for investment purposes decisions. The opinions expressed are those of the guests and not their companies. Listeners should not act upon the information without first seeking appropriate advice from an accountant, lawyer, or other professional.

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